1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:12,320 From the unexplained to the mundane, come join us on a journey to the fringe. 2 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:17,360 Hello and welcome to Journey to the Fringe, here today reminding you that fringe topics 3 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:19,620 aren't always fun and games. 4 00:00:19,620 --> 00:00:22,480 Sometimes people get hurt, other times they lose a penis. 5 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,040 Or even dare I say die? 6 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:32,040 We are your podcast host, Taylor and Chelsea, here today covering a more graphic topic that 7 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,200 viewer discretion is advised for. 8 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,360 It is the topic of alien human mutilation, Chelsea. 9 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:47,600 But I need to specifically say it's not the entire topic of alien human mutilation. 10 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,600 It is but one account of it. 11 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,480 And this account has come up on the podcast before. 12 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:59,720 It came in the form of one John Lear's manifesto. 13 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:04,280 And I got super interested in this because I was like, yes, we got it added to the list 14 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,440 and it immediately got picked up because I said, my God, I need to know more about this 15 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:14,680 and more about this I got for I have, I think what accounts to the whole story. 16 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:20,200 Now I do have to warn you this will be a shorter episode likely just because with dead people, 17 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:25,200 there's less eyewitness account of what happened. 18 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,880 But people can I witness anything, especially if there's multiple dead people. 19 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,800 But if you're in a graveyard, there's all these dead people. 20 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:38,120 I'm just going to say dead people can I witness so long as you talk to them before they die, 21 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,960 but not in this case because they died very or they died beforehand. 22 00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:44,560 Then anyhow, that's a whole other thing in the story. 23 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:51,720 We are covering the story of Jonathan P. Love It, which happens in 1956. 24 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,920 And my God, Chelsea, you're in for a treat because there's so much of the story. 25 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,000 There are twists and there are turns and there are names that we have heard before that come 26 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:05,520 up and I already feel like that's a red flag in your mind, but we're just going to go about. 27 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,280 I am so excited. 28 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:11,200 Can I just ask one piece of information before we start? 29 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:12,200 Yes. 30 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:13,200 Mr. Levin. 31 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:14,200 Is he going to be okay? 32 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:15,560 Is he alive or dead? 33 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:17,160 I have no idea. 34 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:18,160 I would say no. 35 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:19,160 Okay, fair enough. 36 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:20,160 That's a good answer. 37 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,000 I think a reasonable answer is no. 38 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,400 But you're going to understand once we get to it why I have to say it in that weird way. 39 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,600 Okay, we're going to start with an account of this story. 40 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:33,480 We're going to go right into it here. 41 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,520 And this is a live person accounting this. 42 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:37,520 These are live people. 43 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:39,720 I have some late questions already. 44 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,800 It's based on your starting of this episode. 45 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:43,800 Yeah, I know. 46 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:45,400 But this is where it goes. 47 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:46,560 I'd like to witness this. 48 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,120 And yeah, actually that one's going to get answered fairly quickly. 49 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:55,000 So we're on a military base and a search crew of two pilots was sent out to the fields 50 00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:01,040 south of the central White Sands testing region on one chilly morning on March of 1956 51 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:05,200 to look for any debris that might have fallen from a missile test conducted the previous 52 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:06,200 evening. 53 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,960 Major William Cunningham and Sergeant Jonathan Lovett were the men in question. 54 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,120 Those men were affiliated with the adjacent Holloman Air Force Base's Air Force missile 55 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,640 command at around 300. 56 00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:21,920 The two men arrived at the place and they got out of their Jeep and lived drowsily into 57 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:24,000 the search area with flashlights. 58 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,320 They had completed the same work numerous times before with varying degrees of success 59 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:29,320 and boredom. 60 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:33,400 Following a few minutes of pacing next to one another, the two men eventually parted 61 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:38,480 ways with Cunningham continuing to move forward while Lovett vanished over the top of a nearby 62 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:39,480 sand dune. 63 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,800 Cunningham had no idea where the sergeant was going because he still needed to tell 64 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,880 him and his superior assumed it was probably a bathroom break. 65 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:51,640 But after waiting for a few minutes, Lovett still hadn't shown up so Cunningham halted 66 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,720 what he was doing and began to go back to where the two men had split off. 67 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:00,600 The high pitched scream of his subordinate suddenly pierced the darkness and he heard 68 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:02,840 something that would send shivers down his spine. 69 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:07,680 A scream of pure agony echoed throughout the black desert fields surrounding him. 70 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,840 Cunningham ran over to the crest of the sand dune fully aware that Lovett must be in distress 71 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,800 and presuming it was consequence of a snake bite or some other kind of animal attack only 72 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,000 to be faced with a unique, albeit horrifying, scene. 73 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,920 Cunningham has maintained that he had witnessed Jonathan Lovett being transported to an alien 74 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:24,920 aircraft. 75 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:31,120 Cunningham could see a curious metallic disk hovering about 15-20 feet above the ground, 76 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,560 about 30 feet from where he stood. 77 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:38,320 The craft reflected in the weak beam of the flashlight held tightly in his right hand. 78 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,880 The major had never seen anything like it, completely silent resembling neither a vehicle 79 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,120 nor a piece of military equipment. 80 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,640 Cunningham directed his torch beam towards something, slithering and flexing like a snake 81 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:55,640 at the base of the device and he could see that it was a strong steel cable of some sort. 82 00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:00,240 The officer was shocked to discover that the cable was wrapped around one of Lovett's 83 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,120 legs when he pointed his torch at the end of the cable after being startled back into 84 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,800 reality by another horrifying screen. 85 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:11,080 The Air Force Sergeant made a valiant effort to release himself from the heavy metal flex 86 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,880 wrapped around his leg by kicking and slashing with his hands, but it appeared that his efforts 87 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:21,080 were in vain and as Cunningham watched an increasing terror, the cable retracted quickly, pulling 88 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:25,720 the trapped airman through the rocky terrain and then upwards towards the disk space. 89 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:30,200 Paralyzed by fear, Cunningham watched helplessly as Lovett was relentlessly drawn up into the 90 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,320 base of the puffing craft. 91 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:37,160 Before he vanished from view, the sergeant's pharantic eyes briefly locked with his own 92 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:38,840 while pleading for assistance. 93 00:05:38,840 --> 00:05:43,960 The disk rose silently into the overcast skies with a faint click and Cunningham stumbled 94 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:48,520 and tripped his way back to the waiting jeep as he tried to comprehend what he had just 95 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:49,520 seen. 96 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,800 He yelled into the radio that Lovett had been stolen and an airplane was leaving the scene. 97 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,880 Within minutes, every unit and resource of the Air Force was swarming in that direction 98 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,240 but all they discovered was the major slumped over on the ground and wobbling in shock. 99 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,720 In the days that followed, airmen searched every square inch of the area around the suspected 100 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:07,840 kidnapping site but in vain. 101 00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:12,160 On the evening of the event, the crew on duty at the site control tower verified that 102 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,480 unknown radar contact had shown up on their equipment. 103 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:21,160 Still, it was moving too swiftly for any potential counteractions to be taken and a search group 104 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:25,760 operating about 10 miles down range from where Lovett had vanished had been questioning Cunningham 105 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:30,320 for three days when Jonathan Lovett's body was found or what remained of it. 106 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,000 Nobody participating in the later investigation had ever seen the horrifying mutilation done 107 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:35,400 to Lovett's remains. 108 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:40,600 There was tongue, eyes, and a sizable section of jaw were now missing and a clean incision 109 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:45,360 had been created from the point of his jaw around to the back of his larynx. 110 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:50,040 With what appeared to be exceptional surgical expertise, the penis had been removed and 111 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,600 the anus seemed to have been plucked out. 112 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:57,760 The coroner's report also mentioned the absence of any signs of organ failure or vascular 113 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:02,600 collapse elsewhere in the body, which was troublesome given that the body had no blood 114 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:03,600 at all. 115 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:08,640 The report the officer tasked with investigating the case contained further peculiarities. 116 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,920 Several paratory birds were also discovered dead at the scene where the remains were found, 117 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,680 having perished while attempting to feast on the carcass. 118 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:16,680 Go ahead. 119 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:17,680 Oh no question. 120 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:18,680 Okay. 121 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:19,680 Just statement. 122 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:24,920 I just couldn't help but getting hung up on the fact that his anus seemed to have been 123 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:26,360 plucked out. 124 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:27,920 I don't know how you pluck an anus. 125 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:28,920 That is what appeared like that. 126 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,240 If they said plucked a penis, I would understand what they meant. 127 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:34,240 Yeah. 128 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:35,240 You can pluck a penis. 129 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:36,240 You can't pluck an anus. 130 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,520 You gotta think that if you're seeing it, it would clearly be like, oh, that's been 131 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:41,520 plucked. 132 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:42,520 That's the only way to describe it. 133 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:43,520 Yeah. 134 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:45,960 That's the only way you could describe it if it's been plucked, it's been plucked. 135 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,400 That was the only thing that's been plucked on his body. 136 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:54,600 The verbs that they're using, verbs is the word that I'm looking for, right? 137 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:55,600 Adjectives. 138 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:56,600 Adjectives. 139 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:58,720 I think verb, if you're talking about plucked, is correct. 140 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:00,880 But overall, adjectives I think is correct. 141 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:01,880 Yeah. 142 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,320 That are being used to describe this are plentiful. 143 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:06,320 Yes. 144 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,520 Almost as if they're the parts that are being added to the story. 145 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:10,520 Okay. 146 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,520 Interesting thing to say. 147 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:13,520 Yes. 148 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:14,520 Okay. 149 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,840 I can't imagine that's foreshadowing at all. 150 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:17,840 No, not at all. 151 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:18,840 Oh no. 152 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,920 It was also in surprisingly decent shape despite being discovered in the open in one of the 153 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,040 country's warmest and harshest climates. 154 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,880 Now that love is body had been found, Cunningham was taken into custody in the case of killing 155 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:29,880 him. 156 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,160 Military prosecutors claim that the major had killed his subordinate, made up the tale 157 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:37,400 of the kidnapping and mutilated the body to make the lies seem more credible when the 158 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,520 matter was brought before a tribunal. 159 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:41,040 It did cross my mind. 160 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:46,320 Wouldn't it be fun if something else happened and you're just like, oh, I saw like this 161 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,800 craft came down and like, I'm just going to go. 162 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,720 I'm going to say that it was a human mutilation. 163 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:52,720 There is a UFO. 164 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:53,720 I'm just going to do it. 165 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:55,680 And I'm just going to murder this guy? 166 00:08:55,680 --> 00:08:56,680 Yeah. 167 00:08:56,680 --> 00:08:57,680 Like it crossed my mind. 168 00:08:57,680 --> 00:08:58,680 Like at what point. 169 00:08:58,680 --> 00:09:00,120 I don't like him anyways. 170 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:01,120 Yeah. 171 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,520 At what point are you just like, I'm just going to fucking see if they believe it. 172 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:05,520 Maybe. 173 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:06,800 I don't want to admit what I did. 174 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:07,800 Okay. 175 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:08,800 Fair enough. 176 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:09,800 Yeah. 177 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:10,800 Human mutilation. 178 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:11,800 Yeah. 179 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:12,800 Aliens. 180 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:13,960 I've heard about these cattle things. 181 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,000 So like humans, that's not that far away. 182 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:17,200 No one's ever heard of this. 183 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:22,000 This is, I'm a guard and I'm just going to try it and see where it lands me. 184 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:23,000 Not a bad plan. 185 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,000 Yeah. 186 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,000 Just a thought. 187 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:26,000 Just a thought. 188 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,000 I'm just thinking here. 189 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,000 Just a thought. 190 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,000 Okay. 191 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,320 I'm not going to be alone with you in like deep forest anytime soon or anywhere where 192 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,880 this could present itself on a hike per se in the dark. 193 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:36,880 Yes. 194 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:37,880 I mean, okay. 195 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,600 But that's fair enough statement. 196 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,600 It should come as no surprise that the court quickly rejected this argument and after being 197 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,680 freed without being charged, Cunningham was permitted to quit the Air Force with an honorable 198 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:49,680 discharge. 199 00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:50,680 Honorable. 200 00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:52,920 Jonathan Lovett's death has never been fully addressed. 201 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:58,720 The US government has a solid and longstanding policy of not publicly commenting on reports 202 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:03,440 of encounters between military and UFOs and as we have learned from earlier tales. 203 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:09,200 We should note where this story comes to light is in the grudge reports, which Chelsea, I 204 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,240 don't expect you to remember fully. 205 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:16,600 We covered this, I think in our second episode ever project grudge, which leads into project 206 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:17,600 blue book. 207 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:23,480 Now project grudge had, I should say 14 reports, one through 14. 208 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,080 I do remember this. 209 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:26,480 Most of them are public record. 210 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,640 Allegedly, report 13 doesn't exist. 211 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,760 And this is the report from which this story comes from. 212 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:33,880 This is 13. 213 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,320 This is from report 13 of project grudge. 214 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,320 We got it here exclusively. 215 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:40,320 Sure. 216 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,240 Absolutely. 217 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:50,280 So what basically happens is this man by the name of William English alleges that he read 218 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:55,720 project grudges report 13, which this story comes from and he tells the story. 219 00:10:55,720 --> 00:11:01,040 And this is where all of the later accounts come from is William English's account of 220 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,720 this story, which he read in project grudges report 13. 221 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:11,040 It should be noted, despite the fact that there are project grudge one through 14 and 222 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:15,000 one through 12 fully exist and 14 fully exist. 223 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,600 It's not that report 13 is top secret. 224 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,520 There's no account of it. 225 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,400 Usually if something is top secret, they'll say like, if you do a FOIA request that this 226 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,840 there's information that we cannot disclose. 227 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:27,840 That doesn't happen. 228 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,440 The government's position is report 13 doesn't exist. 229 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,240 I don't know how I feel about that. 230 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:36,680 I found an interesting follow up to this, which Chelsea, you're going to get some really 231 00:11:36,680 --> 00:11:38,600 good information from this. 232 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,480 How does it, how does it exist with project grudge if the government says it doesn't 233 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:43,480 exist? 234 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,400 Project grudge does exist. 235 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,560 Project grudge reports do exist. 236 00:11:48,560 --> 00:11:49,880 They fully admit it. 237 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:54,560 There were 13 reports numbered one to 12 and then 14. 238 00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:57,000 And there's just nothing about report 13. 239 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,040 But how come they have it? 240 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:00,760 The government says it. 241 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,560 Same English alleges that he read report 13 as well as someone else, which we'll get 242 00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:07,480 to later in this story. 243 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:08,600 Everybody's in agreement. 244 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:09,880 Project grudge exists. 245 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:10,880 No question about that. 246 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:11,880 Yeah, I know. 247 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:12,880 I know. 248 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:14,880 Project grudge reports exist. 249 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:19,880 However, there's no evidence that there's a report 13 despite there being weirdly enough 250 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:20,880 a report 14. 251 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:21,880 Okay. 252 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:22,880 Does that make sense? 253 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:23,880 Are we on the same page? 254 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,280 No, it completely makes sense, but I don't understand. 255 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:27,280 It's still weird. 256 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:28,280 I agree. 257 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:29,280 Why it's happening this way. 258 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:30,280 Like why? 259 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,200 Like where are we getting the story from if it doesn't exist? 260 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:35,200 Yeah. 261 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:36,360 And we're going to get to that. 262 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:37,360 Yeah. 263 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,560 Well, it's not here saying what's his face isn't it? 264 00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:40,560 Is it? 265 00:12:40,560 --> 00:12:42,520 Hey, don't go speculating yet. 266 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:47,040 This is a true story from a William English, which is a name that has not come up yet. 267 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:48,040 Oh, no. 268 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:49,040 Okay. 269 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:54,040 So my confusion and where the fuck did the story come from is going to go somewhere. 270 00:12:54,040 --> 00:13:01,080 So anyhow, I found this great breakdown on a skeptical forum online of this entire story, 271 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,720 which I think just reading it in full fully encapsulates the entire idea behind it and 272 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,840 brings it back so much to what we've been talking about. 273 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,760 So there is no mention or record of a report 13 ever being produced. 274 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,720 If it were to exist, it is unclear whether it would have been a continuation of the 275 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:21,120 regular monthly summary reports or another special report as with report 14. 276 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,760 The existence of reports one through 12 and then 14 was well known. 277 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:30,640 In fact, a book was published about report 14 in 1956 entitled Flying Saucers and Analysis 278 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:35,000 of the Air Force Project Blue Book Special Report number 14 by Leon Davidson. 279 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:41,880 So to look at this origin of the story, it comes from William English who stated in 1977 280 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:47,680 he was given a document to analyze labeled grudge slash blue book report number 13. 281 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:52,920 He recorded his memories of the report onto two cassette tapes and these were transcribed 282 00:13:52,920 --> 00:14:06,360 into letters which were circulated among the UFO community in the 1980s. 283 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:07,840 It is really weird. 284 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,600 No matter what at the end of the day, I agree it is weird. 285 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:12,600 There's not a 13. 286 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,480 However, Chelsea, I'm just going to say this now it's going to come up later. 287 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,560 13 is not a weird number to skip in Western culture. 288 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,240 I was just going to say that places don't have 13 floors. 289 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:25,240 That's generally it. 290 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,240 That's generally it. 291 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:32,880 But when I'm counting generally I don't just skip numbers and then just move on with life, 292 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,800 especially when it's like a project for the government that I'm working on. 293 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,840 Usually I want to include all the numbers. 294 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,640 Professionally speaking, I agree. 295 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,960 But at the same time, I don't think this is a realm ruled by logic either. 296 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,080 I mean mostly, but no. 297 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,680 Okay, let's keep seeing where this goes. 298 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,080 Not liking where it's going, like usual. 299 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,840 Text file typed in by UFO net one. 300 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:00,400 Original document is eight neatly handwritten pages of which photocopies have been circulated 301 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,080 in the UFO research community. 302 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,960 Note, what follows is purportedly the recollection of an intelligence analyst who was given an 303 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,400 assignment to prepare an analysis of the Grudge 13 report. 304 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:15,280 The timeframe in which this occurred was July 1977 with the original Grudge report having 305 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,040 been published in 1953. 306 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:24,080 The Grudge 13 report was made up of 624 typed pages on white paper with gray cover. 307 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:29,480 This memorandum as it has become known was first circulated in early 1981. 308 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,640 It seems the letters were then typed up and uploaded to the internet. 309 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:39,640 The uploader from the first website being William Cooper, also known as Bill Cooper, 310 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:45,920 also known as very good friend of John Lear, who became Proto Alex Jones and dies in a 311 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:47,720 gunfight with the friends. 312 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:49,560 I remember him from behind the bastard. 313 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,080 It's not a journey to the friend. 314 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,160 Well, actually he did come up in the journey to the friend type. 315 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:55,660 Yeah, he did. 316 00:15:55,660 --> 00:16:01,080 But anyhow, the most important part in this story is William English, whose description 317 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:02,960 of the report is this. 318 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,680 Publication was withdrawn from pouch. 319 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:08,360 It measured approximately eight inches by 11 inches with gray cover. 320 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,680 Basically bound paperback style similar to technical manuals. 321 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:17,680 Across the center front, it read Grudge slash Blue Book Report number 13. 322 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,600 It was dated 1953 to 1963. 323 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:25,960 In the lower right hand corner was AFSN 2246-3. 324 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,080 An upper left hand corner was the word annotated. 325 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,640 Across the front upper right hand corner to lower left hand corner was red tape indicating 326 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,640 code red security measures. 327 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:40,160 Across the front was stamped in red ink, top secret need to know only crypto clearance 328 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:41,840 14 required. 329 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:46,240 Inside front cover upper left hand corner were handwritten notations in ink, which were 330 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,640 blacked out by black felt pen. 331 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:52,560 Now that's a subscription of this document when he first got it. 332 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:58,120 It should be noted this is clearly different from the other 12 reports. 333 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,840 So he says it was titled Grudge slash Blue Book Report number 13. 334 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:04,160 I'd call my attention. 335 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:09,720 The other reports all say it's Project Blue Book Report number and then the report number 336 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,880 formerly Project Grudge. 337 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,360 That's how they're all titled. 338 00:17:13,360 --> 00:17:14,360 Except this one. 339 00:17:14,360 --> 00:17:16,400 That's actually one thing that stood out to me. 340 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:21,240 It wouldn't have been like Grudge slash Project Blue Book because it was one or the other 341 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:22,240 at the time. 342 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,840 Well, it was one or the other and then it transferred into the other. 343 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,000 There was never a time where it was both, which is a great point. 344 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,360 I mean, it doesn't make sense for it to be both at one time. 345 00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:32,840 No, exactly. 346 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:34,880 That right there is a big flag. 347 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:40,080 The original person who brings up the story mistitles it or at least this one is significantly 348 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,960 differently titled from the ones coming before and after it. 349 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:45,880 Next up, very strange thing. 350 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:52,840 English said this document is 624 pages, which is significantly different than the other 351 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:57,160 13 reports, which are roughly 20 pages. 352 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,440 Maybe that's why they excluded it. 353 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:00,440 Two don't. 354 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:01,440 Yeah. 355 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:02,440 Yeah. 356 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:03,440 I mean, both the juices. 357 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:04,440 We put it in 13. 358 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:05,440 Yeah. 359 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,000 Because surely nobody's going to notice we skipped a number. 360 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:09,440 Yeah, exactly. 361 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,040 So he also, he gives a full table of concepts of this. 362 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,000 I'm just going to go through what he says is in this entire document. 363 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:20,960 Part one on the design of generators to accomplish strain free molecular translation. 364 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:25,520 Part two, the generation of space time continuums closed open and folded. 365 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:30,120 Part three on the generation of temporary pseudo acceleration locus. 366 00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:32,000 Part one chapter one. 367 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:37,720 One criteria for a simple generator and control system referring to equation 17 appendix a 368 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:42,760 part two chapter one continuation of Einstein's theory of relativity to final conclusion. 369 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:47,640 Part three chapter one possible application of Einstein's theory of relativity at conclusion 370 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:52,560 part one chapter two reports of UFO encounters classifications close encounters of the first 371 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:57,520 kind subtitle sightings and witnesses part two chapter two close encounters of the second 372 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,640 kind subtitle UFO sightings witness within close proximity. 373 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,720 Part three chapter two close encounters of the third kind subtitle to UFO encounters 374 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:11,240 and extraterrestrial life forms witnessed and personal encounters subtitles slash colonies 375 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:17,080 relocations thereof case histories chapter three part one military encounters with UFOs 376 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:23,120 chapter three part two military reports concerning sightings on radar and electronic surveillance 377 00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:28,600 of UFOs subsection two analysis report J.L. and Heineck lieutenant colonel friend. 378 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:34,920 So there's a lot going on in this and anybody who's listened to our episodes and has some 379 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:40,880 sort of weird memory thing which is good we need you on our side and please tell us when 380 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:45,640 we're doing these things that we need to be linking but it should be noted that this 381 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,360 support came out in 1963. 382 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:52,400 The idea of close encounters of the first second and third kind don't exist at this 383 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:57,240 time J.L. and Heineck does create it but he never actually formally talks about it in 384 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:03,280 any way until 1972 in his book the UFO experience the scientific inquiry which is much later 385 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:10,320 that's a pretty big gap but but before this guy is talking about it in 1977 importantly 386 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,280 which is pretty well around the time that he came out with it. 387 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,400 So whilst Heineck was a scientific consultant for Project Blue Book in the 50s the scale 388 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:22,420 wasn't created until two decades later by Heineck and the U.S. Air Force certainly wasn't 389 00:20:22,420 --> 00:20:27,360 categorizing according to the system which didn't exist yet and particularly in only 390 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:31,480 this one report too it would be weird for this to just show up in one report and then 391 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,280 not appear again for 19 years. 392 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,720 There's quite a few things that are showing up who lean in this report not other reports. 393 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:44,040 And in fact in his follow-up book the Heineck UFO report which followed the Blue Book reports 394 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:51,040 he didn't use these terms anywhere so he actually wrote books prior to 1972 about these reports 395 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,400 without using these terms at all. 396 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:59,360 But in any event English does recount what he remembers of this Jonathan Love It story 397 00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:02,400 in his own words and this is his version of the story. 398 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,320 The report gave a clear indication of reports of human mediation most notably was a case 399 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:11,280 witnessed by Air Force personnel in which an Air Force Sergeant E6 by the name of Jonathan 400 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,480 P. Love It was observed being taken captive aboard what appeared to be a UFO at White 401 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,040 Sands Missile Test Range in New Mexico. 402 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:23,320 This abduction took place in March of 1956 at about 0300 local and was witnessed by Major 403 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,400 William Cunningham of the United States Air Force Missile Test Command near Hallamon Air 404 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:28,400 Force Base. 405 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,880 Major Cunningham and Sergeant Love It were out in a field downrange from launch sites 406 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:37,640 looking for debris from a missile test when Sergeant Love It went over the ridge of a 407 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,360 small dune and was out of sight for a time. 408 00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:44,080 Major Cunningham heard Sergeant Love It scream and what was described as a terror of agony 409 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,200 and the Major thinking the Sergeant had been bitten by a snake or something ran over the 410 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,600 crest of the dune and saw Sergeant Love It being dragged into what appeared to him as 411 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:57,960 silvery disc-like object which hovered in the air approximately 15-20 feet. 412 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,080 Major Cunningham described what appeared to be a long snake-like object which was wrapped 413 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,280 around the Sergeant's leg and was dragging him to the craft. 414 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,440 Major Cunningham admittedly froze as the Sergeant was dragged inside the disc and observed the 415 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,920 disc going up into the sky very quickly. 416 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,600 Major Cunningham got to the Jeep radio and reported the incident to missile control whereupon 417 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,560 Mollilé Control confirmed a radar sighting. 418 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,400 Search parties went out into the field looking for Sergeant Love It. 419 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,200 Major Cunningham's report was taken and he was admitted to the White Sands Base Disciplinary 420 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:29,200 for observation. 421 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,720 The search for Sergeant Love It was continued for three days at the end of which his nude 422 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,440 body was found approximately 10 miles downrange. 423 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,520 The body had been mutilated, the tongue had been removed from lower portions of the jaw, 424 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,360 an incision had been made just under the tip of his chin and extended all the way down 425 00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:48,520 to his esophagus and larynx, he had been emasculated and his eyes had been removed. 426 00:22:48,520 --> 00:23:01,040 Also his anus had been removed and there was comments in the report on the apparent surgical 427 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,480 skill in the removal of these items including the genitalia. 428 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:09,400 The reports commented that the anus and genitalia had been removed as though a plug which in 429 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:18,520 the case of the anus extended all the way to the colon. 430 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:25,600 Pulled out like a plug or plucked in my mind are the same thing. 431 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,600 Too much. 432 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,440 There was no sign of blood within the system. 433 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,600 The initial autopsy report confirmed that the system had been completely drained of 434 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,480 blood and that there was no vascular collapse due to death by bleeding. 435 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:42,800 Some comment added that this was an unusual event because anybody who dies or has complete 436 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,560 loss of blood there is vascular collapse. 437 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:50,080 Also noted when the body was found there were a number of dead predatory type birds within 438 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,840 the area who apparently had died after trying to partake of the sergeant's body. 439 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,280 There were a number of extremely grisly black and white photos from all indications the 440 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,920 body had been exposed to the elements for at least a day or two. 441 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:06,920 The new Mexico sun in the desert is extremely hot and debilitating under the normal circumstances. 442 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:08,800 So that's his original story. 443 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,640 That's so funny. 444 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,280 One that we have such differing opinions of plug and plug. 445 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,760 Number two, a plug and plug danis. 446 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:21,280 Well pulled out like a plug removed as though a plug in my mind is plucking. 447 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,260 Okay when you put it that way. 448 00:24:23,260 --> 00:24:26,240 Because that's the term had been removed as though a plug. 449 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,520 So I don't like that as much as I like hearing that it was plucked out. 450 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:31,520 Yeah. 451 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:32,880 Makes it a little bit more disturbed. 452 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,760 I already said it right off the bat. 453 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:35,760 That gives me the shudder. 454 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,840 The only real difference between that first story which is the more recent, it's from 455 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,520 one of the more recent conspiracy sites. 456 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,360 There's no difference except plug. 457 00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:46,360 Except for the adjectives and verbs. 458 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:47,360 Yeah. 459 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:48,360 Oh you're right. 460 00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:49,360 Other than that it was exactly the same. 461 00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:50,360 I was like that. 462 00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:52,320 They added some flowery words. 463 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,360 And that's why I wanted to read that first one off the bat and then come back to this 464 00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:57,280 and this is the original story. 465 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,960 Anyhow English added a few extra details in an interview he gave with a man named John 466 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:03,960 Lear. 467 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:09,000 Namely that quote Major Cunningham was initially accused of murdering Jonathan Lovett. 468 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:10,480 But charges were later dropped. 469 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:11,480 Why? 470 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:12,560 Because they thought the alien. 471 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,880 Because this guy had no way of draining his blood. 472 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:16,880 Okay. 473 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:17,880 I can see it. 474 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:18,880 One more sentence. 475 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,680 But anyhow that's where the John Lear part of it comes in. 476 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:22,680 Okay. 477 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:23,680 The White Sands missile range. 478 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:24,680 No. 479 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,680 I'm just saying okay. 480 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:27,680 Okay. 481 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,120 The White Sands missile range is a real place and does border hall in an air force base. 482 00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:36,000 However there appear to be no records that people named Major William Cunningham or Air 483 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,560 Force Sergeant E6 Jonathan P. Lovett ever existed. 484 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:41,880 Great. 485 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,320 The only Major General William Cunningham from this time period was stationed in the 486 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,040 Pacific during the 50s. 487 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:52,040 Was Army not Air Force and was promoted to Major in the 60s. 488 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,720 Ultimately it should be concluded that the incident never happened. 489 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,880 The only source for it is that of William English. 490 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,400 But considering his recounting of the report, has it not matched legitimate reports and 491 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,600 used terms that did not exist at the time, it's likely to be a fake. 492 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:08,960 Is William English? 493 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,080 William English worked for the British Air Force I believe. 494 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:14,600 It's gonna come up a little later. 495 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,800 It should be noted however Bill Cooper saw the same report 13. 496 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,600 Weird how he sees these reports that are all fake. 497 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:22,800 Is it in hypnosis? 498 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,520 However in Cooper's report he only states that he saw a document entitled Project Grudge. 499 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,840 He makes no mention if it had been labeled for report 13 or mentioning Project Blue Book 500 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,040 and no mention of it containing the story about Lovett. 501 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,920 Eventually the writer here found himself in possession of two documents, one called Project 502 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,840 Grudge and another called Operation Majority. 503 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,280 Project Grudge contained the history of alien involvement since about 1936 and it began 504 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,280 talking about Germany's involvement with the crashed discs that they had recovered in 505 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:51,280 1936. 506 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:52,960 And we're attempting to duplicate technology. 507 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,520 When Project Grudge, William Cooper, saw photographs of the dead aliens and of the craft. 508 00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,440 I saw photographs of live aliens. 509 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,760 I saw photographs of off-top seas of our internal organs is what he says. 510 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:09,280 I saw photographs of aliens designated EB which is a term that just keeps coming up. 511 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,360 Who was held in captivity from 1949 to 1952 when he died. 512 00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:17,920 I saw the history of what had been able to put together at that time from incidents from 513 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,580 the 1800s that involved aliens and their crafts. 514 00:27:21,580 --> 00:27:26,320 As detailed, Bill Cooper was then one of the people who typed up online John Lear and William 515 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,560 English's account of Grudge 13 and their interviews. 516 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:34,960 He stated, this report was typed onto disc verbatim from the original document which 517 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:41,360 was sent by John Lear via Federal Express and arrived on October 8th, 1988 by Bill Cooper. 518 00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:46,560 I Bill Cooper, do swear that no changes were made and do swear that this is an exact verbatim 519 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,240 copy of the original. 520 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,360 No idea who he's swearing to. 521 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:53,360 It doesn't seem clear. 522 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:59,000 And just so that everybody's aware, this is not legal advice, but if you just state that, 523 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,000 that has no legal ramifications. 524 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:07,280 Is it like those people on Facebook sharing like I don't agree to let Facebook share? 525 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,760 I do not consent, yes. 526 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,680 Because you've already agreed to the exact same impact. 527 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:20,280 It seems that after Bill Cooper saw Bill English's report, the two got in touch and at that point 528 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:25,880 Bill Cooper claimed that what he had seen was in fact the same report 13 that Bill English 529 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,380 had seen. 530 00:28:27,380 --> 00:28:31,160 Once again, time has proven to be an ally in that evidence has come to light over the 531 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:36,000 past several years that substantiated everything that was initially said about reviewing report 532 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:37,000 13. 533 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,840 In addition, one other person, Bill Cooper, formerly of the United States Naval Intelligence 534 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:48,440 section, CINCPAC, has come forward and admitted viewing an earlier version of the Grudge Blue 535 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,000 Book Report 13. 536 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,760 This Bill Cooper's original claims were just to have seen something called Project Grudge, 537 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:59,080 it was only after he read Bill English's report that he switched to claiming they saw 538 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,440 the same Blue Book Report 13. 539 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:06,360 I think it's reasonable to dismiss Bill Cooper's claims as absolutely false, particularly when 540 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,520 everything we know about Bill Cooper is he just lies about what he was briefed on in 541 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:15,520 red while he was in military, which again leads back to Bill English as being the sole 542 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:16,960 source of the story. 543 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,560 English himself is known something of a grifter in the UFO community as well. 544 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:27,240 In his book Fact, Fiction, and Flying Saucers, the truth behind the misinformation, distortion, 545 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,760 and derision by debunkers, government agencies, and government con men noted UFO researcher 546 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:38,320 Stanton Friedman recalls English's involvement in the 1981 Cash Lundrum UFO incident. 547 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:43,000 The Cash Lundrum incident is one of the few incidents to have left forensic evidence in 548 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:47,840 the form of burns and psych-physiological effects suffered by witnesses, which led to 549 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,080 a $20 million lawsuit against the US government. 550 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,320 It was one of the more credible sightings of the decade. 551 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,880 But unfortunately, according to Friedman, English, who was an initial investigator of 552 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:03,880 the incident as a member of the aerial phenomena research organization APRO, quote, sold his 553 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,840 story to a tabloid and was expelled from ACRO for violating confidentiality, end quote. 554 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,480 The Cash Lundrum story first appeared in public on the cover of the Weekly World News, a less 555 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,720 than credible weekly tabloid. 556 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:21,200 In the late 80s, English's story of his experiences with the alleged captain in the Army Special 557 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:26,040 Forces during Vietnam and later as an alleged intelligence analyst at RAF, Chick Sands, 558 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,960 began to gain attention with the UFO researchers. 559 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,320 Cooper's support of English's claims bolstered his credibility. 560 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:37,200 Cooper and English both gained prominence around the same time. 561 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,160 Around the same time, John Lear began making inroads to the UFO community and promoting 562 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:42,960 the story of Bob Bazar. 563 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,880 One of the more atlandish and questionable conspiracy theories in the late 1980s was 564 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,040 a document uploaded to the UFO bulletin boards called Krill Papers, which came up in our 565 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:52,160 John Lear episodes. 566 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:53,400 He just made them up. 567 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,440 They were just a fun fanfic. 568 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,960 Cooper drew to his forum, claimed that he had seen copies of the Krill Papers during 569 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:05,280 his time in the Navy, and in 1990, Don Ecker, director of research for UFO magazines wrote 570 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,160 an expose about Cooper calling him a fraud and questioning his business practices and 571 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:10,160 research methods. 572 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:15,080 In 1991, English made what was essentially an early internet call out post claiming that 573 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,640 the Krill Papers were a fraud perpetrated by Lear to expose the gullibility of the UFO 574 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:20,640 community. 575 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:25,400 Cooper lash out at English claiming that he was the real fraud and that his claim of service 576 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,760 in special forces were exaggerated. 577 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:33,000 Given that English was born in 52, making him 18 when he claimed to be a special force 578 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:37,600 captain in Vietnam in the 70s, there may be some merit to Cooper's claims of stolen 579 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:38,600 valor. 580 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,960 Cooper also accused everyone who disagreed with him, including John Lear, George Knapp, 581 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,440 Staten Freeman, and other notable members of the UFO community of being government agents 582 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,440 and or Freemasons. 583 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,920 English largely disappears at this point from the UFO community. 584 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:57,760 He did have a short-lived campaign for a New Mexico Senate and in 2018, started a GoFundMe 585 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,680 to raise $10,000 to write a book about his Vietnam experience. 586 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:14,840 The secret history of Cooper English debacle is largely forgotten as the story is one of 587 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,400 unpleasant community infighting and of course complete fabrication. 588 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,560 Much of the debate took place on bulletin board systems, early predecessors of modern 589 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,520 internet and many of those threads that formed on the online UFO communities in the 80s had 590 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:27,520 been lost to history. 591 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,960 Though there are a number of sites that have archived these discussions, the fact that 592 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,160 much of the UFO community history has been lost is troubling because now outlets like 593 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,920 the History Channel are uncritically repeating accounts of some of these dubious figures 594 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,360 from the fields. 595 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:42,360 And guess what? 596 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:47,520 History Channel is one of those ones that has an in-depth story about Jonathan Lovett. 597 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,400 Although that's not the one I chose to read, they do actually have a fairly balanced story 598 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:52,400 on it. 599 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:57,760 And they do that does include like four sides that nobody can okay. 600 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,400 Yeah, there's nothing to validate that this is promising. 601 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:07,440 I am surprised that this guy has not come up for us before and until this point as he 602 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,760 seems kind of tied in with everybody. 603 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,360 But this is it for him. 604 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,720 Yes, but it's really just for this one story. 605 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:14,720 This is it for him. 606 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,200 Yes, he just kind of says this, which makes me think that he probably did really murder 607 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:20,200 this person. 608 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,280 But he wasn't involved in the UFO community at all. 609 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,560 I do just want to come to his defense a little bit here. 610 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,320 He was born in 52. 611 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,240 So at the time of the murder, he was one. 612 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,520 I don't think he was the one who did it. 613 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,320 But wait, who was supposed to do the murder? 614 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:37,320 Cuttingham. 615 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:38,480 Then what the fuck's he doing? 616 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:39,880 He was the guy who read the grudge report. 617 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:40,880 Why? 618 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:41,880 Just cuz. 619 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,560 Okay, I got my wires crossed there for a second. 620 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:49,960 So if he didn't do the murder, he just came in for a second and then left. 621 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,360 He's the only one who recounts the story. 622 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,920 This is where all of the original stories come from. 623 00:33:54,920 --> 00:34:00,320 And it should be noted that neither Cunningham nor Love It seemed to actually have existed. 624 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:01,320 This is weird. 625 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:02,320 Why? 626 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:03,320 Like why? 627 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,720 I have no idea, but it just seems to kind of go in line with things that we learned about 628 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,600 John Lear and Bill Cooper. 629 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:10,600 Right, it comes back up. 630 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:11,600 From the last few episodes. 631 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:12,600 This is messed up. 632 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:13,600 Yeah. 633 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,920 It's just kind of right in line with all that. 634 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,640 But then I forgot that John Lear was in there. 635 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:20,640 Yeah. 636 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:21,640 Okay. 637 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,440 Then especially everything going around with the animal mediation at the time. 638 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,480 Like it fits in perfectly with that. 639 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,400 It's just an elaboration on that story. 640 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,560 Do we know this guy actually existed? 641 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,160 English definitely did exist. 642 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,120 I was wondering because it got tied back to Lear. 643 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,000 He ran for Senate. 644 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,800 Oh, oh. 645 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:39,640 And he had ego fund me. 646 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:40,840 And he also wrote a book. 647 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,720 So he appears to at least have some evidence that he existed. 648 00:34:43,720 --> 00:34:44,720 What a weird thing. 649 00:34:44,720 --> 00:34:45,720 Okay. 650 00:34:45,720 --> 00:34:46,720 He did serve in the military. 651 00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:47,720 That is true. 652 00:34:47,720 --> 00:34:49,440 However, there is questions about. 653 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,280 Like what his actual role is. 654 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:52,760 I don't know what to make of this. 655 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,160 What do you make of it? 656 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,560 I make of everything that I've learned about John Lear and Bill Cooper and that they get 657 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:04,480 a lot of stories to change the view of aliens come forward during their time. 658 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:05,600 This being one of them. 659 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,640 Because before they really came along, it was just this question of like these mysterious 660 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:14,920 people and it was more so fearful things and somebody dying to aliens and being cored 661 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,240 and plucked from their anus. 662 00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:18,240 It's worrisome. 663 00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:19,800 You're a weird choice there. 664 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,120 That would be my choice to. 665 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:22,120 I don't like plug. 666 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:23,800 Chelsea, what do you think of the story? 667 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,120 I'm still trying to process it to be honest with you. 668 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:28,120 Okay. 669 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,280 As you can tell, I'm trying to work through my thoughts on it. 670 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,400 But in the end comes back to John Lear and Bill Cooper. 671 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:40,560 It's obviously made up, but I'm just trying to like the why doesn't is not there for me. 672 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,840 It just kind of seems pointless. 673 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:44,840 That's a fair point. 674 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:49,040 I don't know as soon as Bill Cooper gets a hold of it and he just like, yeah, of course, 675 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,520 if he says he read it is probably a lot. 676 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,320 From everything I'm learning about this guy, I mean, good story. 677 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:01,200 Nonetheless, I'm just trying to process the why because it's the why and everything. 678 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,640 That is the weird thing, but he also tried to sell UFO stories to the press prior to 679 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:06,640 this. 680 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,440 So I think he could have just been trying to make it. 681 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,680 I was trying like it didn't make sense to me why he just shows up and then he seems to 682 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,840 have a very minimal mark and then leaves. 683 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,520 I know it's weird and I don't think we're going to get any more things from him, honestly. 684 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,760 It doesn't seem like he does a very short flash in the pan. 685 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:23,760 Okay. 686 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,480 But yeah, that's I mean, I enjoyed it. 687 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:30,240 That was a great story connected back to the usual players that we find popping up now 688 00:36:30,240 --> 00:36:36,160 that I surprisingly did not know about before doing this podcast. 689 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:41,320 And they really do play so much of what the average person knows about UFOs. 690 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,040 I wouldn't say the average person. 691 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,400 What the average UFO enthusiast knows. 692 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,040 I don't know if you were like, what do you know about UFOs? 693 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:54,200 I bet you it would tie back to aliens being found at Roswell. 694 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,080 Maybe at least something the average person would know. 695 00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:59,080 See I don't. 696 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:00,080 Hmm. 697 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,080 That's a good question. 698 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,320 We can put this on as a poll. 699 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:04,920 You know, it's not a spotify. 700 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,160 That's going to be a bias poll though. 701 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:08,280 It is going to be a bias poll. 702 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:14,440 But also I said my viewpoint is UFO enthusiasts and I actually have no idea what fan base 703 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:15,440 is. 704 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:16,440 Who's listening? 705 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:17,440 Yeah. 706 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:18,440 How do you pull that even? 707 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,920 Didn't we realize at some point it was all nothing but engineers or something like that? 708 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,680 It came up in a previous episode like a while back. 709 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:30,160 I would say that's probably one of the most renowned. 710 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,000 If you were to ask any Jobwell in the street, what do you know about UFOs? 711 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:35,440 Roswell, Area 51. 712 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,360 Yes, but that's not aliens. 713 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:43,680 I think Bill Moore, John Lear and Bill Cooper specifically here who comes out of it, they 714 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:49,560 really have the negative viewpoint of aliens and not necessarily UFOs on the community. 715 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:50,560 Yeah. 716 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:55,160 Like everything that's like people being killed by aliens comes from this group, which is 717 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:56,560 just so mind boggling. 718 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,080 That is weird. 719 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,040 But that makes me wonder what Linda Moltenhouse up to. 720 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:03,040 Yeah. 721 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,920 I feel like we're really alluding to her episode coming up in the next three to five years. 722 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,120 I'm really, really scared to do her. 723 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:12,120 Yeah. 724 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,680 These guys just keep coming up to these guys that I never knew about before doing this 725 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:17,680 podcast. 726 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:18,680 Yeah. 727 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:19,680 Way before this episode. 728 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:20,680 We are again. 729 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,720 And I should say this is not the only alleged case of human mutilation. 730 00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:27,480 There are other cases we will likely cover in the future. 731 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:33,880 I will not speculate at this time as to the validity of those cases, mostly because when 732 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,720 I do speculate, I always get disappointed when I actually get to the story. 733 00:38:37,720 --> 00:38:39,080 So I'm just going to leave it at that. 734 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:40,720 There definitely are other cases. 735 00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:42,080 I am aware of them. 736 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,200 I will be researching them and they will come up in future episodes. 737 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:50,000 Can you speculate on the state that their anus is, whether they were plucked? 738 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:51,000 You know what? 739 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,000 I know they're removed, but I am unwilling. 740 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:54,320 Oh, you don't know the ad. 741 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:59,040 I am unwilling to use any verb at this point other than removed. 742 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:00,040 Okay. 743 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:01,040 Fair enough. 744 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:02,040 Or missing. 745 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:03,040 Sorry. 746 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,240 Missing is a better one because that doesn't even connote a verb. 747 00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:07,240 Yeah. 748 00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:09,440 It doesn't even let us know what you would think. 749 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:10,440 It's just missing. 750 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:11,440 They are missing though. 751 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:12,440 Yeah. 752 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:17,440 So the state of how it became missing, we'll find, no, just leave it at that. 753 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:18,440 Yeah. 754 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,840 And I would like to leave this on something anus related, but that also seems a little 755 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,720 off for an end up in episode. 756 00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:25,480 So I have been Taylor here with Chelsea. 757 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:26,760 We are Journey to the Fringe. 758 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,400 Thank you all for listening and we'll see you next week. 759 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:29,400 That was good enough. 760 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:30,400 Bye. 761 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,660 Thank you for listening to Journey to the Fringe. 762 00:39:34,660 --> 00:39:40,680 If you have liked what you have listened to, please like, share, subscribe, or follow 763 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,000 depending on what venue you are listening to us through. 764 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:50,160 Also please, if possible, leave a five star review as that really helps us in the algorithms. 765 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:55,000 If you wish to interact with us, please check us out on your social media of choice. 766 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:56,720 I bet you we are there. 767 00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:01,200 And if you really want to communicate with us and give us ideas for new episodes or tell 768 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:08,080 us that we're wrong and terrible, either way, please send us an email at journeytothefringe.com. 769 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:22,480 For now, I'll see you in the next episode.