1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:12,160 From the unexplained to the mundane, come join us on a journey to the fringe. 2 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:18,040 Hello and welcome to Journey to the Fringe, a fun romp into new grounds, anyone? 3 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,120 That's at least the acronym I assume fringe stands for. 4 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:26,200 And yes, we do need to spell the word anyone phonetically for that to work, so just play 5 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:27,200 along. 6 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:33,400 Here are your acronymtastic hosts, Taylor and Chelsea, here today to find out what happens 7 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:34,400 with John Lear. 8 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,280 Now, Chelsea, I'm sure you remember, for we just did this several minutes ago, but for 9 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,520 the rest of these people, it's probably either a week or, you know, just next in their playlist 10 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:43,680 if they wait some time. 11 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:45,560 So let's give them a refresher anyways. 12 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:50,960 John Lear, prodigal son of the Learjet family, fairly successful pilot, I guess is a good 13 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,800 way to put him, ends up getting involved in UFOs and basically creates his magnum opus 14 00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:02,120 of a UFO document and ends up getting interviewed by George Knapp in 1988 because of it. 15 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:03,240 And that's where we're going to pick up. 16 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,360 I'm just going to show you a little excerpt from this first interview, just so that we're 17 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,800 on the same page and we can kind of see what he looks like, what he sounds like. 18 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:12,480 I will watch it begrudgingly. 19 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:13,480 Who's that? 20 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,000 Oh, John Lear. 21 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,640 For those of you who can't see it, mostly everybody but Taylor and Chelsea here. 22 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:26,080 It says John Lear, UFO researcher on the screen. 23 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,320 That's what George Knapp was. 24 00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:30,320 Yeah. 25 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:33,880 It's crazy to see a young George Knapp. 26 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,080 I didn't think it existed, in fact. 27 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,080 No, me either. 28 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:42,080 One of the most gratifying UFO researchers lives right here in Las Vegas. 29 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,400 His name is John Lear and he is my guest today. 30 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:45,760 Mr. Lear, thanks for being here. 31 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:46,760 Okay, George. 32 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,880 I begin with you're a pilot, an airline pilot, captain. 33 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:55,080 You have held 17 different world speed records at one time or another. 34 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,960 You're a member of the famous Lear family that all Nevadans are pretty much familiar 35 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,200 with, a former state senate candidate. 36 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,480 You don't sound like the kind of guy who would get hooked up in something that a lot 37 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:06,320 of people would say is a bunch of nonsense. 38 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,720 No, it's just by coincidence that I got really interested. 39 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:12,480 This is about two years ago. 40 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,800 My father saw a UFO and my brother did. 41 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:21,760 They were very interested, but there was really no proof as far as I was concerned to really 42 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,600 look into it until about two years ago. 43 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,480 Your father and brother saw them. 44 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:27,960 Can you give details? 45 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:28,960 My brother saw one. 46 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,520 He was flying a P-38 from Phoenix to Los Angeles at night. 47 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,040 It just appeared in front of him. 48 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,800 He made two turns, 90 degree turns. 49 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,000 It stayed in front of him and then disappeared. 50 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,080 My father was flying at night. 51 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,400 I believe over the Arizona desert and saw one too. 52 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,000 So you started, you got an interest because of the other members of your family. 53 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:50,000 How did you start out? 54 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,240 I had an interest, but there was really nothing I could put my finger on. 55 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,240 Like I say, two years ago, a friend of mine came through town. 56 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,920 We had flown in the Southeast Asia together and he was retiring from the Air Force. 57 00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:06,480 He came over and we started talking about where he had been for the last 15 years. 58 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,800 He mentioned that he had been stationed at Bentwaters. 59 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:10,000 I said, oh, Bentwaters. 60 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:14,320 That's where the flying saucer supposedly was in 1980. 61 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,560 He said, no, John, not supposedly it was. 62 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,840 He said, I don't care if you believe me or not. 63 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:19,840 It landed. 64 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,240 I didn't see it because we were confined to quarters, but I know people who did and I'll 65 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,600 give you the names and if you ever see them, tell them you know me and they'll tell you 66 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:28,000 the whole story. 67 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,480 Since then, I ran into one of the security police who was within 10 feet of the saucer 68 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:37,800 and actually saw the three aliens get out and go up to General Gordon Williams, who was 69 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,080 the wing commander at that time. 70 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:45,840 Now Chelsea, I'm not quite sure if you heard that, but it was basically him saying that 71 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:50,800 one of his old army friends told him that they were there when a UFO had landed at the 72 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:51,880 base. 73 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,880 And if you talk to anybody that was there at the time, tell them that I told you to talk 74 00:03:55,880 --> 00:04:00,520 to them and they'll tell you the story, which really reminds me of the Bennewitt story. 75 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:01,520 Does it not? 76 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:02,520 Yeah. 77 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,680 If you get the key word, I sent this person to you. 78 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:07,280 You're going to feed them a story. 79 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:08,680 Yeah. 80 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:09,960 Just speculation on my end. 81 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,240 It just reminds me so much of the Bennewitt story. 82 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:13,840 No, that makes sense. 83 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:18,760 And did he just name a person that was not involved in Enwaters? 84 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:19,760 Did I catch that? 85 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:20,760 He said Williams. 86 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,040 I don't think it matters too much for this. 87 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,640 So that is George Knapp's first UFO interview. 88 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,360 If you watch the whole thing, he gives no pushback. 89 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,040 It's just questions and it's not asking for sources. 90 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:33,520 It's literally just questions. 91 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:34,680 I'm a little disappointed. 92 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,760 I always thought a little bit better of George Knapp compared to everybody else. 93 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:44,440 I listened to a podcast that George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell did together, specifically 94 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,320 about John Lear, and they were talking about, oh, we're not actually going to tell you whether 95 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:49,640 or not we thought he was lying. 96 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,800 We're just going to give you the story and everything he said. 97 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,320 And I'm like, oh, George, aren't you a journalist? 98 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:55,320 I hate that. 99 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:56,320 Yeah. 100 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,080 I was just going to say, well, I guess you got to start somewhere. 101 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:04,120 But if that's still the take that he has on it, that is going against everything that 102 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:05,760 we know to be fair. 103 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,360 I'll touch on this at the end a bit. 104 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,240 They're doing this for a very specific reason this episode of their podcast, but it'll come 105 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:13,960 up at the end of this. 106 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:18,560 Also at the very end of this, Jeremy Corbell, who hasn't come up a lot on the show, but 107 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:20,760 he's fairly big name now in the UFO community. 108 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:21,760 He does documentary. 109 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:26,640 His entire introduction to UFOs as well is through John Lear. 110 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:27,640 Really? 111 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,840 Jeremy Corbell was trained by, was it John Lear? 112 00:05:31,840 --> 00:05:33,360 He took over for somebody. 113 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,000 Jeremy Corbell, I don't know. 114 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:36,800 This is an episode to do this on. 115 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:37,800 Yeah. 116 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,080 He will have his own episode. 117 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:40,800 Not to disparage him in any way. 118 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:42,680 I can't stand listening to him. 119 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,840 He is a very whiny sounding individual. 120 00:05:45,840 --> 00:05:47,440 I hate a whiny voice. 121 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:48,440 Yeah. 122 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:49,440 And that's what he's got. 123 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,200 And it's nothing to say about what he's saying. 124 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,200 It's just, it's voice. 125 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:54,800 I do apologize, Jeremy. 126 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:56,120 You can't do anything about it. 127 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,000 We'll touch more on your actual facts in your episode. 128 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,840 So that's how that starts off. 129 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:05,440 And this is really how he becomes to be a major name in the UFO community. 130 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,360 And now we're going to talk about some of the people he gets involved with. 131 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:13,600 First and foremost, Lear was posting his wow conspiracies on a website called Paranet in 132 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:19,520 the summer of 88 when who should talk to him but a UFO witness by the name of Bill Cooper 133 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,720 made his first public comment in Paranet Polit and Board System. 134 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:28,840 According to Cooper's first post in 66, he was serving aboard the USS T-Roo when he and 135 00:06:28,840 --> 00:06:33,120 fellow Navy personnel witnessed a metal craft larger than a football field reportedly enter 136 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:34,280 and exit the water. 137 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:37,840 Cooper claimed he was instructed by superiors to never speak about the incident. 138 00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:43,000 Bill Cooper declared that he could confirm 150% of Lear's hypothesis, a paper by John 139 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:44,000 Lear. 140 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:49,080 And in October of 88, Lear sent Cooper copies of all his research into UFOs, including communications 141 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:55,480 with Val Valerian, aka John Grace, an Air Force MCO on active duty who had a keen interest 142 00:06:55,480 --> 00:07:00,200 in UFOs and the Dallas revisited a videotape made by Lars Hansen exploring the theory 143 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,560 that John F. Kennedy had been fatally shot by his driver. 144 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:08,520 Hansen had sent it to Lear in the hopes that Lear might help finance his JFK research, 145 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:10,800 asking Lear not to pass it on to anyone. 146 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,120 Chelsea, have you ever heard the name Bill Cooper? 147 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:14,760 It sounds familiar. 148 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:16,760 We haven't talked a lot about him. 149 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:22,560 He is the prototype like proto Alex Jones before Alex Jones existed. 150 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:28,040 He started in the UFO community, ends up taking a swing, getting his own radio show, 151 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,400 and just being the Alex Jones of the early 90s. 152 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,200 We're going to talk more about him now. 153 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:33,640 Okay, I'm ready. 154 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:39,240 In 89, the pair Cooper and Lear issued an indictment demanding the US cease aiding and 155 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:43,640 embedding and concealing this alien nation which exists within our borders. 156 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:48,080 Now, Cooper, a little bit about him, his sketchiest claim to fame was the videotape, the truth 157 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,800 betrayed Dallas revisited, which presented evidence that JFK had been killed by the driver 158 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,800 of the presidential limousine, a secret service agent by the name of William Greer, with 159 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:02,360 an electrically operated gas powered assassination pistol built by the CIA containing a shellfish 160 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:03,800 toxin dart. 161 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,640 Bill Cooper, Chelsea, this is probably actually where you know him from. 162 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,400 He wrote a book famously called Behold a Pale Horse. 163 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:11,400 Never heard of it? 164 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:12,400 I don't think that's a winner. 165 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:13,400 No. 166 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,080 I need to talk a bit about this videotape that they're talking about, this JFK video, 167 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,400 of him being shot by his driver. 168 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,600 This is an article called Behold a Pale of Horse Shit, the truth behind William Cooper's 169 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,560 influential conspiracy theories by Adam Gorightly. 170 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:33,240 This videotape was intended to serve only as a preliminary research tool to spur potential 171 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:38,400 investors to underwrite a thorough professional investigation into the theory that the driver 172 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:42,160 of the presidential limousine, William Greer, actually turned around and fired the fatal 173 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:43,160 shot at JFK. 174 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:47,120 It was never intended at any time to be considered a final statement on the issue, much less 175 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,240 to be shown publicly or to be distributed as such. 176 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,200 This is a quote from the actual producer of the video, Lars Hansen. 177 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:59,200 Hansen approached John Lear, assuming he had deep pockets because his dad is the Lear 178 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:05,240 Jet guy, and shared a copy of Dallas Revisited in the prospect of getting him to invest in 179 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:06,560 this research. 180 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:10,480 Little did Hansen know, but by this time Lear had fallen out in favor with his father, Bill 181 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,440 Lear, losing access to those deep family pockets. 182 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,680 After getting his mitts on Dallas Revisited, Lear began showing the film at his lectures 183 00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:22,680 and passed it along to Bill Cooper, who not only afterward trotted it out like his own, 184 00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:25,920 but also started selling copies of it at his speaking gigs. 185 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,920 When Hansen caught wind of these escapades, a shitstorm soon erupted between Cooper and 186 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:30,920 Lear. 187 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:32,440 According to Hansen, this is his statement. 188 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,920 Cooper's supporters told me a couple of months after my visit to his home that Cooper 189 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,240 had a copy of the tape and was showing it publicly. 190 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,640 At that time, in October of 89, I confronted him over the phone about his dishonesty regarding 191 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:47,200 his use and sale of the videotape, and have since done so publicly in print on television 192 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:48,200 and on the radio. 193 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:52,040 When he chickened out of appearing on the TV program Inside Report, which was taped in 194 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:57,000 April and aired in May of 1990, after learning that I would also be appearing to counter 195 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:58,000 him. 196 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,920 The producers deliberately left out half my statement. 197 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:04,600 I had made it clear on their videotape that at that time I threw the rough video together. 198 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,520 I believe that there was sufficient supporting evidence to warrant a complete investigation. 199 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:13,200 However, after seeing a much clearer version of the Zapruder film, discussing the issue 200 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:18,240 with a number of other respected researchers and combing through the evidence at hand more 201 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,560 closely, I had decided by November of 88 that the theory no longer was tenable. 202 00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:26,600 So first and foremost, he's working with Bill Cooper and just gives him these documents 203 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,120 and Bill Cooper decides that it's his own and starts selling it and saying like this 204 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,120 is his theory. 205 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:32,120 And this guy is very clear. 206 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:33,120 It is not his theory. 207 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:34,800 I made this video. 208 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:36,040 It's not true at all. 209 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:37,600 That was just my theory at the time. 210 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:39,560 So that's our first introduction to Bill Cooper. 211 00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:40,800 He's going to come up in a bit. 212 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,840 I'm trying to somewhat keep it chronological at this point. 213 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,600 I can't fully, but it is what it is. 214 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,680 So next up, this is a excerpt from a book by Adam Gilwright Lee. 215 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:56,600 It's called Saucers, Spooks, and Cooke's, which specifically talks about this time. 216 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,440 And I need to buy it because from what I've read about the book and specific excerpts 217 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:01,840 from it, it seems fantastic. 218 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:03,240 Okay, let's hear it. 219 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,600 Although Paul Benowitz lit the initial Dulce-based fuse, it took the better part of a decade 220 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:12,640 for the story to go viral when John Lear burst onto the scene with his hair on fire. 221 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,880 Lear, who seemingly added some measure of credibility as a Dulce-based promoter, was 222 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:21,800 an airline captain and former CIA contract pilot as well as son of William Weir inventor. 223 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:27,520 On the June 11, 1994 edition of Don Ecker's UFO Tonight radio program, Bill Moore stated 224 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:32,200 that the bulk of John Lear's Dulce-based information came courtesy of Paul Benowitz, 225 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:37,320 including the term Graze, that first appeared in Benowitz's Project Beta report, describing 226 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,600 the aliens who had entered into a secret treaty with the US government, according to Moore, 227 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,720 quote, many people out there have heard these little aliens refer to as Graze. 228 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,920 That term was invented in the Benowitz-Pounter-Intelligence affair. 229 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:49,920 They made it up. 230 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:54,000 They dumped that in Benowitz's lap, and he repeated it to all kinds of people in the 231 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,440 UFO community, and today it's standard word of mouth, and it's crap, end of quote. 232 00:11:58,440 --> 00:11:59,440 Did we know that? 233 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,560 I can't remember if we covered that or not. 234 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:04,120 I don't think we covered that at all. 235 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:08,120 Also Bill Moore is kind of a known liar, so who's to say if it's actually true or not. 236 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:13,040 Okay, yeah, I was just gonna say because wasn't the first mention of Graze, Benny and Bernie 237 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:14,040 Hill? 238 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,800 Yeah, it's a great question that we could possibly go and do an episode on. 239 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:21,560 We should probably do a Graze episode at some point, but yeah, I just wanted to report this. 240 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:24,160 Yeah, no, that's fair. 241 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:29,560 In early November 1987, a mini-conference comprised entirely of UFO researchers was organized 242 00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:34,800 by Tom Adams and Helden Creston, Colorado, among those attending were John Lear, Linda 243 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:40,240 Moltenhau, Christian Lamrite, David Perkins, Gary Macy, Lockheed Engineer John Andrews, 244 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:44,080 and Jim Spicer, founder of the Peronet Bulletin Board, BBS. 245 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:49,120 It was at this Creston meeting of the minds, according to Bill Moore, that Dulce Bay Story 246 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,520 was fleshed out using Paul Benowitz as the primary source of information. 247 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:58,120 Or at least that was the scenario that Moore laid out in his interview with Don Eckert. 248 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,600 What Moore was most likely referring to as a Dulce Bay Story later evolved into the UFO 249 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:07,320 cover-up, a controversial seven-page document that Lear posted to Peronet in December of 250 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:08,480 87. 251 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,880 During the Creston conference, Lear suggested that the group put their heads together and 252 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,560 come up with a joint statement addressing the current state of ufology. 253 00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:19,400 Initially everyone was receptive to this idea, and the second day they gathered in a meeting 254 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,920 room to come to a consensus as to what this group statement would say. 255 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,520 As the discussion progressed, everyone seemed in agreement that some form of unidentified 256 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:31,840 aerial phenomenon was involved with the cattle medallions, but John Lear wanted to take it 257 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:37,920 several steps further and definitively declare the earth was under attack from an alien race. 258 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:42,960 As David Perkins recalls, quote, I was horrified about where Lear wanted to take our statement, 259 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:47,960 but I was trying to play and I said, I can't quite get behind that one John, I'm not signing 260 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:49,720 my name to that. 261 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,720 And from there, this whole idea of putting out a statement quickly fell apart. 262 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:58,320 Lear got miffed, he thought he could come away from our conference with this Creston 263 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,920 manifesto and it didn't happen, so he was kind of pouty about it for the rest of the 264 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:03,920 day as I recall. 265 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,480 And then later that evening he and Linda Howe suddenly decided to take off and go on a road 266 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,800 trip together, leaving the conference early. 267 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,560 And I said to her, you can't leave now, we still have another day and she said, well, 268 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:18,760 we have to go right away to Roswell to see Clifford Stone, it seems important. 269 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:23,200 He has some information for us and that really seemed out of character for Linda and raised 270 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,120 a few eyebrows because she never left anything early. 271 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,360 She'd stayed at the bitter end if there was some sort of gathering happening and we thought 272 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:34,920 it must be really damned important whatever Cliff Stone had to tell her. 273 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,400 So end of quote, really weird situation there. 274 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,560 I don't know if this is the best place to ask it and just tell me if it's not. 275 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:48,320 But like, what is John Lear actually bringing to the table at all? 276 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:53,040 I think it's the air of believability that he brings with his background and his wealth 277 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,680 or his fame and fortune that people perceive him to have. 278 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,520 Is he not just talking about what everybody else is talking about though? 279 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:04,360 Yes, and he added his own stuff on top of it that he doesn't have anything to back up. 280 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,480 But the stuff that he's adding to the stuff that's already going around in the community 281 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,360 at the time is fucking like weird ass. 282 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,000 Yeah, yeah. 283 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,600 Okay, I thought there might have been something I was gonna say. 284 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:16,600 No. 285 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:21,440 Okay, so it's just the same stuff going around like nothing original there but then he adds 286 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,120 like obviously stuff that he's just straight up making up. 287 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:26,120 Yeah. 288 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,720 Knowing what we know about Bill Moore and okay. 289 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,440 And I'll talk about that more at the end too but I'll continue on from this excerpt from 290 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:33,440 this book. 291 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,040 On the way to Roswell, Lear and Howe had to stop over at Albuquerque where they had dinner 292 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:42,280 with Colonel Ernie Edwards who kept track of Dr. Paul Benowitz for the Air Force and met 293 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:48,360 with Condor Robert Collins who showed us some transcripts regarding EBE3, one of the living 294 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,840 aliens sequestered from the Roswell crash. 295 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,080 One of the messages said EBE3 wants to see the ocean. 296 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,160 We have to ever comply or he'll disappear again. 297 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:58,160 Again. 298 00:15:58,160 --> 00:15:59,160 Yep. 299 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:04,040 Lear and Howe's next stop was Roswell where they met up with another spooky ex-military 300 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,920 type, the aforementioned Sergeant Clifford Stone who claimed that as a child growing 301 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,120 up in Southern Ohio he had encountered extraterrestrials and that these encounters had come to the 302 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,040 attention of the US government who monitored Stone throughout his youth and into adulthood. 303 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,560 During the Vietnam era, Stone enlisted in the army and in short order he was whisked 304 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:24,640 away to a top secret movie screening room at Fort Belvoir and shown a film of a UFO 305 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:25,640 retrieval. 306 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,040 Then afterwards placed on a special military team assigned to crash retrievals during the 307 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,960 course of which Stone identified no less than 57 different alien races. 308 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:39,480 In the summer of 86, Stone had been in correspondence with Paul Benowitz receiving what could best 309 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:44,400 be described as two rather lengthy and rambling letters in which Benowitz went into exhaustive 310 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,240 detail about the different alien races at Dulce. 311 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,360 Perhaps comparing notes about the different aliens that Stone himself had allegedly encountered 312 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,400 during his crash retrieval assignments. 313 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,400 It was Stone's involvement with Benowitz that appears to have been at least one of the factors 314 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:03,000 that motivated Howe and Lear to skip out early from Creston to Rendezvous and Roswell with 315 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:04,000 Stone. 316 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,440 All of these preregrenations seem to have the singular focus in mind of finding out 317 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:13,480 more of what Benowitz knew about the ETs and alleged Dulce underground base. 318 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:19,280 Not long after his road trip with Howe, Lear returned to Albuquerque to meet with Benowitz. 319 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:25,080 According to Christian Lamrite, sometime in 87 or possibly 88, John Lear went to meet 320 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:26,960 Paul Benowitz at Paul's home. 321 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,040 I found out later that John spent several days there. 322 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,520 To the best of my knowledge, it was the first time they had met in person. 323 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,600 A few days after John's departure, I got a call from Paul. 324 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:41,160 He was extremely angry about something involving John and from the strong words he used, it 325 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,280 was very clear he did not care to see John again. 326 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:48,040 Following this interaction, Benowitz changed his phone number with Drew from the front 327 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:53,040 lines of Ufology and Lamrite suspects that this was the cause behind Benowitz's self-imposed 328 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,320 ufological exile that had something to do with the meeting with Lear. 329 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,400 Not to mention that by this time, Benowitz was teetering on the edge of a psychological 330 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:02,400 meltdown. 331 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:07,000 And basically, he's the last person to talk with Benowitz before he goes into the psych 332 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:08,000 ward. 333 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:09,000 What? 334 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:10,000 How didn't I know this? 335 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,000 Did Lear come up in my episode? 336 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:12,560 No, he didn't. 337 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,680 And you just wait for the next ones to come up. 338 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,920 We keep finding people who are involved in this. 339 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:18,920 What the heck? 340 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,400 So Benowitz goes and gets admitted to the mental hospital. 341 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:22,400 After meeting with Lear. 342 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:23,520 Eventually, he comes out. 343 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,040 And then I didn't find the actual quote from the book. 344 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,600 It's just somebody saying it's in this book, which I can't find the actual quote. 345 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:30,600 So take it with a grand song. 346 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:35,480 Apparently, Lear visits Benowitz again when he comes out of the hospital and he leaves 347 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,080 Benowitz's house with all of his UFO files and they're never seen again. 348 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:40,080 What? 349 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:41,720 I have no idea if that's true or not. 350 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,640 That is purely speculation on Reddit. 351 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:44,800 But it might actually be in the book. 352 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:45,800 I don't know for sure. 353 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,040 I want to get the book so I can read it. 354 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:48,040 Okay. 355 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:49,040 What's the book? 356 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:50,040 The Spooks one? 357 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:51,040 Yeah. 358 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:52,040 We might leave a reference for it. 359 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,040 It's called Saucers Spooks and Cooke's by Albert Goe rightly. 360 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,120 It's not the only quote we're going to be reading from that. 361 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:58,920 So next up, that's his Benowitz relationship. 362 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,080 So it seems like, does it come up more? 363 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:05,640 It seems like if he's one of the last people to see him, it seems like he may have been 364 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,400 getting equal information as more. 365 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,600 Everything prior to that alludes to all of his information either came from Benowitz 366 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,040 or was the information being fed to Benowitz? 367 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:17,040 Yeah. 368 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:21,480 So he's getting it from somewhere or why he even went over there to get UFO files. 369 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:22,480 He's involved in. 370 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,880 And I could not find anything from John Lear saying what happened in those days with Benowitz. 371 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,000 I mean, you don't really want to be tied to it. 372 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,280 No, you really don't. 373 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,240 So he may have essentially, because John Lear is still around. 374 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:36,240 Is he not? 375 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:37,240 We'll get to that at the end. 376 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:38,240 Okay. 377 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:43,000 It sounds like he may have came out from that unscathed somehow, but I also want to add 378 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:47,520 in before I forget that Linda Moulton-Haw was kind of sneaking around in these episodes 379 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:52,960 as well, which leads me to want to see what's going on there as well, because she might 380 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:54,800 have came out of this. 381 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:55,800 She's not unscathed. 382 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,640 She's not unscathed in a lot of stuff, but yeah. 383 00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,400 So that's the Benowitz part. 384 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:04,560 Next up, Bob Lazar meets John Lear in mid-1988. 385 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,200 It's somewhere around March to April of 1988. 386 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,960 Gene Huff contacted John Lear and offered to appraise his home in exchange for a copy 387 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:18,640 of Lear's collection of UFO materials, including the Billy Meyer tapes as well as other documents. 388 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,360 Lear agreed and Huff brought with him a man by the name of Bob Lazar. 389 00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:23,360 What? 390 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:24,360 Why? 391 00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:25,360 He's appraising a home? 392 00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:27,240 With him as an assistant to help him appraise the home. 393 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:28,240 Yes. 394 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:29,240 I'm sorry? 395 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:30,240 Are we sure? 396 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,080 This is how it does go. 397 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:33,640 This is the best information I can find. 398 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:38,200 It's agreed to in multiple places online that this is their first time they meet. 399 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:45,720 And most notably, it is about four months before Bob Lazar gets a job at Area 51 S4 400 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:47,120 in December of 1988. 401 00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:48,120 Okay. 402 00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:53,160 So before he starts working at Area 51, he's working as an assistant to appraise houses. 403 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,160 Yes. 404 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:55,400 And becomes friends with John Lear. 405 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,600 But it doesn't even seem that he's... 406 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:58,600 Oh, okay. 407 00:20:58,600 --> 00:20:59,720 I see what you're... 408 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:01,560 And specifically, I've heard it brought up. 409 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:07,160 He actually gets questioned when he's going to get the job at Area 51 about his relationship 410 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,160 with John Lear. 411 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:09,160 Yeah. 412 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:10,320 It's not like they even got paid for this. 413 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,680 He did it in exchange for information. 414 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:13,680 Yeah. 415 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:14,680 Okay. 416 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:15,680 Bob Lazar. 417 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,320 So it might have just been like a hobby thing that he came along for whatever. 418 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,320 And in March of 1989, Lear journey to the outskirts of Area 51. 419 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,760 Chelsea, I need to just play this video for you now because this is the only way I can 420 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:28,760 really... 421 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,200 My mind is going crazy right now connecting all these things because Bob Lazar... 422 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:33,200 This is adding so much. 423 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,640 This first interview was actually with George Knapp. 424 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,040 And Chelsea, this is the backstory to that interview. 425 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,120 For those of you who don't know, Bob Lazar is known as like the Area 51 whistleblower. 426 00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:44,640 The first person to really say everything that's going on here. 427 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,240 And he gives this interview to George Knapp, who there's a whole backstory to it. 428 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,720 We'll do it when we do it by either George Knapp or Bob Lazar episode. 429 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,840 But this is what I need you to see. 430 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,880 May 15th, 1989. 431 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,560 Seems like only yesterday. 432 00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:58,560 Not really. 433 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:03,280 I was the co-anchor of the five o'clock news with Paula Francis and our newscast back then 434 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,120 featured a nightly interview segment. 435 00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:09,400 The guest we had scheduled for that day bailed on us at the last minute, so I placed a call 436 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:14,440 to famed aviator John Lear because he'd been telling me he knew someone who'd been hired 437 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,120 to work at an ultra-secret military base near Groom Lake. 438 00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:22,200 We had no idea the interview would still be of interest 30 years later. 439 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:28,200 There's really no way I can prove it without revealing my identity and getting myself into 440 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,800 more trouble than I have already. 441 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,080 Exactly what's going on up there. 442 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:39,160 So yeah, the whole reason that the Bob Lazar interview where he brings forth all that information 443 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:44,120 about Area 51 is because George Knapp had an interview fall through and he called John 444 00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:46,920 Lear and said, hey, do you have anybody for me? 445 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,680 And Bob Lazar comes out. 446 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:49,680 George Knapp. 447 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,680 Why did you ruin him? 448 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,000 I love him. 449 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,000 This is not looking good. 450 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,560 Like another one. 451 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:57,560 Okay. 452 00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:58,560 That's his relationship. 453 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:03,720 They had a relationship the entire time, like into like the current era. 454 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,560 Jeremy Corbell talks about the reason he met Bob Lazar is because he was friends with 455 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,800 John Lear and he would be over at his house when they were hanging out. 456 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,440 Next up, John Lear did get involved with Mufon in Nevada. 457 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,400 In fact, he was its head in 1989. 458 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:23,720 He served as a state director of Mutual UFO Network and he hosted their 1989 annual convention 459 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,760 in Las Vegas, Nevada on July 1st, 1989. 460 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,680 When the symposium was entitled, the UFO cover up a government conspiracy. 461 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,920 And I have a little excerpt that was written by Don Ecker who's involved in this. 462 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:40,200 And Chelsea, you might not be putting it together, but as I'm reading this, you're going to 463 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:41,200 put it together. 464 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,840 I'm putting a lot of things together right now. 465 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:49,040 By June of 1989, Lear's paper on the evil gray aliens, Bill Moore's MJ12 research and 466 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,640 Cooper's twist and spin on both subjects were causing shock waves throughout American 467 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:58,040 ufology as exemplified by the controversial 1989 symposium in Las Vegas organized by Mufon 468 00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,040 during that year. 469 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:03,840 John Lear became Mufon's director for Nevada and had invited Bill Cooper, Bill English 470 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:05,800 and me to speak about our own research. 471 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,840 At the very last moment, Walt Andress, the international director of Mufon, objected 472 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,820 to the content of the papers by Lear, Cooper and English and canceled their presentation 473 00:24:13,820 --> 00:24:15,160 scheduled for Sunday. 474 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,880 The Mufon membership reacted with open revolt. 475 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,680 Lear threatened to take his speakers down the street to another location and most of 476 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:26,760 the conference would have followed him had it not been for even more outrageous event. 477 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:32,520 Bill Moore's talk ran for over two hours in length and had the audience calling for 478 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:33,680 his blood. 479 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,800 And for those of you, this is an episode that we did in the past. 480 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,880 He admitted that he worked hand in fist with the military intelligence during the 80s in 481 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,840 an attempt to get on the inside of the military's knowledge on UFOs. 482 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,480 During this speech, he admitted participating in the disinforming of Paul Benowitz, a civilian 483 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,760 UFO investigator who had been hospitalized for severe mental health problems. 484 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:59,440 When Moore's talk was complete, he refused questions and rushed from the room, leaving 485 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,240 the proceedings in turmoil. 486 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,400 Lear seemed severely stressed and uncommunicative. 487 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:09,720 Later said Bill Cooper came to my house on Friday before the talk and was drinking heavily. 488 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,160 He demanded to know who I was working for. 489 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,120 He said he was afraid that either I or someone else was setting him up. 490 00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:20,460 The more he drank the louder he became and started slamming his hands down on my desk. 491 00:25:20,460 --> 00:25:24,840 His girlfriend was there and I thought she might try to temper him down, but did nothing. 492 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,840 He then told me that anyone who tried to cross him would regret it. 493 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,680 I moved to the other side of my desk and not sure what he might do, finally his girlfriend 494 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:32,680 let him out. 495 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,640 That Sunday, July 2, 1989, was when the alternative Mufon event began. 496 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,040 Lear spoke first and then Cooper. 497 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,440 By this time, Cooper had refined his materials and for the most part stunned his audience 498 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,440 by claiming the US government had recovered dozens of crashes in alien pilots. 499 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,960 The aliens were abducting people and killing them. 500 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,920 He said that the US had a secret space program jointly with the Russians and the aliens with 501 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,680 bases on Mars and the moon. 502 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,920 Cooper even claimed that there were areas on the moon that were free-standing water and 503 00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:00,920 vegetation. 504 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,200 Man can walk on the moon with just an air pack, Cooper confidently told the audience. 505 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,920 Finally he blurted out that President Kennedy was murdered by his secret service driver as 506 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:14,640 part of a huge conspiracy plot and that he had read about it in secret Navy documents. 507 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,880 Serious researchers in some media channels were now suspicious about Cooper's claims, 508 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,000 especially concerning the Kennedy assassination tape. 509 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:27,800 That is a whole part of that Bill Moore speech that I think we did not know that context. 510 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,160 We didn't know that, no. 511 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:35,000 This is like a creature that keeps like reaching its tentacles into ways that we didn't know 512 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:39,800 before touching all these individuals. 513 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:46,200 It's funny how when you look into the specific one, other people aren't named except for 514 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,560 maybe once and then we look into them and we're like whoa like they had a major hand 515 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:51,960 in this as well. 516 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,320 I'm scared to look into other people when it comes to this. 517 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:57,320 I get that. 518 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,320 Yet intrigued. 519 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,000 That's the 1989 symposium and Lear's involvement in it. 520 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,960 So fairly involved as well because he was ahead of Mufon at the time. 521 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,040 He put on the whole thing. 522 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,800 He had Bill Moore there to speak and in fact they were all going to get kicked out so they 523 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:13,400 threatened and brought it back. 524 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,720 Like man, that thing, just next up. 525 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,720 Let's talk about Bill Cooper a bit again. 526 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:24,600 Now for those of you who don't know, Behind the Bastards has an entire saga on Bill Cooper. 527 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,440 So you're only getting the Cole's Notes of that. 528 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,400 We're not going to do a Bill Cooper episode. 529 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,360 You're going to get the Cole's Notes here at the end though. 530 00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:34,400 But this is a continuation of Bill Cooper and John Lear's relationship. 531 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:39,400 During his meteoric ascent into UFO stardom, Cooper was interviewed by the syndicated television 532 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,960 program PM Magazine and while chatting up the host of the show prior to taping, Cooper 533 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,560 mentioned something called the Krill Papers, an infamous euthelological document that 534 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,040 concerned a secret Human E.T. exchange program. 535 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,720 And as part of the secret program, an E.T. had been left behind on Earth identified as 536 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,880 Krill or OH Krill. 537 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,360 Cooper claimed that the initials OH meant original hostage and that the Krill Papers 538 00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:06,960 were among the number of top secret briefing papers he smuggled out in his lunchbox in 1973 539 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,560 while serving in the Navy. 540 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:13,040 However, John Lear was right there as a bystander of the PM Magazine interview and he recalled, 541 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:18,320 the name Krill was an inside joke referring to a case in the late 1950s in which a Navy 542 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,120 investigator interviewed a woman who claimed to channel alien name Cyril. 543 00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:25,720 Lear and Grace had made the initials OH out of thin air. 544 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:31,440 They were the writers of this document and not any way involved in the document couldn't 545 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,320 have existed when Cooper says he stole it. 546 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:40,560 So is Lear like Cooper because Lear seems to out this guy for like having fake footage 547 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,200 and like making documents a lot? 548 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:44,200 This is their following out. 549 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:49,440 Grace did not want his name involved in the paper and that's why they used the OH Krill 550 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:50,440 Papers. 551 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,880 They were just over a decade old at the time of this television program. 552 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,160 Cooper was claiming that they're from 72. 553 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,560 This is just not true. 554 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,920 Lear says, when I heard Bill tell the interviewer he saw the Krill Papers while he was in the 555 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,280 Navy I motioned him over and I asked him, what the hell are you doing? 556 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:06,280 What do you mean? 557 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,600 I said, Bill, John Grace and I did the Krill Papers. 558 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,480 We named them after a 50s case. 559 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,920 While Cooper insisted he saw them in the Navy and that is when I really began to wonder 560 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,240 about Cooper's credibility. 561 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:23,480 It wasn't when he stole the video that was supposed to be fake. 562 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,200 This is just an excerpt from that article I referenced earlier, Behold a Pale of Horse 563 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:28,200 Shit. 564 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,040 As to be expected, took exception with Lear setting him straight and then turns to tables 565 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,440 telling Lear that he was the one who was actually lying, which was Cooper's usual 566 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,760 comeback when presented with facts that didn't square with his version of reality. 567 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,800 And Behold a Pale Horse, Cooper claims that damn near anyone who ever disagreed with his 568 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,600 conspiratorial worldview was part of its sinister disinformation program, whom included in its 569 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:53,080 ranks such ufological stalwarts as Bob Lazar, Bud Hopkins, Stan Friedman, Bill Moore, Jamie 570 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,720 Chanderra, George Knapp, Linda Howe and Bruce McAbee. 571 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:01,720 Cooper also took aim at the editors of UFO magazine, Vicky Cooper and Don Ecker, referring 572 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,160 to them disparagingly as Don Pekker and Sticky Cooper. 573 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,000 Yeah, he was like a 5 year old. 574 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:12,200 Cooper later broke ranks with ET True Believers claiming he'd been duped about UFOs and alien 575 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,240 abductions which he'd come to realize were actually a government disinfo op designed 576 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,280 to conceal the New World Order agenda. 577 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,880 In the early 1990s, Cooper aligned himself with the Second Continental Army of the Republic 578 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,440 of militia group and told the IRS to fold it 5 times and stick it where the sun don't 579 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:28,440 shine. 580 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,960 That taxation was unconstitutional and if they wanted to take away his guns, they could try. 581 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,960 During our of the time broadcast, Cooper claimed that he had been targeted by the Illuminati 582 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,160 Socialist President of the United States William Jefferson Clinton. 583 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,560 In 1998, Cooper was charged with tax evasion and bank fraud. 584 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:49,720 Federal Marshals, aware that Cooper was always locked and loaded, took measured approach, 585 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:55,080 realizing any type of competition might escalate into violence and by the fall of 2000s, Marshals 586 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,720 had been unable to serve a warrant and Cooper was listed as a federal fugitive. 587 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,640 In the meantime, Cooper had a number of confrontations with locals in the Egoray, Arizona. 588 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,880 The straw that broke the camel's back occurred in July of 2001 when a firearm wheeled in 589 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,160 Cooper chased off a local man with a parcel on his parcel near his home. 590 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,440 This incident triggered a response from the Apache County Sheriff's Office that led 591 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,440 to Cooper's ultimate undoing. 592 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,360 Even during a raid on his home, he went out and a blaze of bullets shot dead at age 58 593 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,560 on November 26, 2001. 594 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,120 What the fuck? 595 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:27,120 Yeah. 596 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,920 Okay, I mean I haven't been expecting this whole episode Billy. 597 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,640 It just keeps taking turns. 598 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,000 Twists and turns. 599 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,760 Yeah, that's one of the people John Lear got involved with. 600 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,440 Obviously there was a set bring of the relationship at some point with this very crazy man. 601 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,400 Again, prototype Alex Jones. 602 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,000 Alex Jones even has mentioned him. 603 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,080 He was in a recent episode of Knowledge Fight, so it's very funny that this came up in this 604 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:51,080 research. 605 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,280 And then the last thing I wanted to talk about with this guy is this is just a quote from 606 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:56,380 Lars Hansen. 607 00:31:56,380 --> 00:31:59,040 He wrote this article called Lear and Loathing. 608 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,040 Good pun. 609 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,120 I'm just going to read it direct. 610 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:02,120 This is the guy again. 611 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,800 Remember, it's from the JFK videos that he gave them the Lear. 612 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:06,800 Oh, this is the guy. 613 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:07,800 Okay. 614 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:08,800 Yeah, this is the guy. 615 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,920 It kind of starts abruptly, but let's just go with it. 616 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,800 Once we had moved through the obligatory anecdotes, I was discussing the October surprise 617 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:19,920 weapon deals and the sleaze bags who took part in that despicable scenario in late 1980. 618 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,520 When Out of the Blue, Lear began to brag to me about his participation as a pilot in 619 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:30,400 the illegal weapon flight in Iran in early 1981 sanctioned by the Reagan-Bush administration. 620 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,920 He claims he was flying planes for Iran Contra, like the weapons into Iran. 621 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:35,920 Okay. 622 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,040 Well, that has come up in an episode before. 623 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:39,040 Yeah. 624 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,040 I think. 625 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:41,040 Like the cocaine ones. 626 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:42,040 Yeah. 627 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:43,040 Drugs. 628 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:44,040 Yeah. 629 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:45,640 They were just being from the Contras. 630 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:46,640 Or sorry. 631 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:47,640 Yeah. 632 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,040 Selling cocaine to the Contras or buying it. 633 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,040 I forget how it works. 634 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:52,040 There was guns in the game. 635 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:53,040 Yeah, it was something like. 636 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,040 And I ran in the Contras. 637 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:56,040 Yeah, exactly. 638 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:00,040 In the 80s, there was Cold War drama. 639 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,040 We bought the copies inside Nicaragua. 640 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,040 Our friends were the Contras. 641 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:08,040 Freedom was their mantra. 642 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:13,040 So we sent them lots of money for guns and landmines. 643 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,040 But Congress stopped the Contra money flow. 644 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,040 Just cause they moved a teeny bit of blow. 645 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,040 But then a hero came for it. 646 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,040 His name was Oliver North. 647 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,040 Ian Reagan went around the Sissy Congress. 648 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,040 Holy North. 649 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,040 Holy North. 650 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,040 You see, North secretly sold missiles to a harmless country called Iran that would 651 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,040 always be a grateful ally. 652 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,040 Then he gave the profits to the Contras. 653 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:42,040 Genius. 654 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:48,040 But the sales were uncovered by the press. 655 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:58,040 Reagan and North began to stress because what they did was technically high treason. 656 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:03,040 These were conducted as part of the payoff for the Iranians rule in the Reagan Bush campaign 657 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:04,040 team. 658 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:09,040 Secret deals with the Ayatollah Omani regime to delay the release of 51 American hostages 659 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,040 until after the 1980 elections in order to prevent Jimmy Carter from being re-elected. 660 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,040 Very much to my surprise, since I knew that several of the team players in the operation 661 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:22,040 had either died mysteriously or currently under indictment for their role in those operations, 662 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,040 he openly boasted about his participation in the flights. 663 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:30,040 Despite my obvious disgust in this revelation, Lear Crowed that everybody knocks the agency 664 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,040 for not being able to keep any secrets. 665 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,040 We kept that one secret for seven years. 666 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,040 And then we let it out. 667 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:41,040 Yes, he made a point of showing me numerous news clippings about them and that he had 668 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,040 collected from the Middle Eastern press. 669 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:48,040 They made a rather grand display of showing me his beautiful oak map cabinet and taking 670 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,040 out his navigation map of that area. 671 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:55,040 The route flown by his flight crew from Tel Aviv over Turkey to Iran was clearly distinctly 672 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:56,040 marked on it. 673 00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,040 He explained that Turkey had insisted that in return for allowing the planes to overfly 674 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,040 Turkish airspace, every other load of weapons had to be left there. 675 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:09,040 He then pointed proudly to a picture of him and his cronies taken in Tehran in 1981, which 676 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:10,040 was hanging on the wall. 677 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:15,040 I was frankly quite amazed that he would be so open to a virtual stranger about such 678 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:20,040 operations for which numerous participants were still under federal indictment and or 679 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,040 the subject of continuing criminal investigations. 680 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,040 Also, by 1988, a number of key participants in the affair had already succumbed to mysterious 681 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,040 ailments or other life-ending circumstances. 682 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,040 When I admonished him that this was actually part of one of the biggest cover-ups in international 683 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,040 criminality in American history and that he was obligated to come forth publicly on this 684 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:43,040 issue, he sloughed it off as having been sanctioned by the Reagan administration and insisted 685 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:48,040 it was of minor importance in comparison to the growing threat of occupation of the planet 686 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,040 by extraterrestrials. 687 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:51,040 I couldn't believe my ears. 688 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:55,040 Despite the numerous reports I had already seen concerning thousands of UFO sightings 689 00:35:55,040 --> 00:36:00,040 and encounters with aliens, I suspected strongly that his acknowledged ties to the intelligence 690 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:06,040 community had been persuaded to promote the UFO issue to distract public attention from 691 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:13,040 being focused on the many crimes of Iran-Contra scandals perpetrators. 692 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:23,040 Despite my apprehension, I decided to maintain the contact with him in order to persuade 693 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,040 him to disclose the participants in the flights publicly. 694 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,040 So yeah, this guy believes that the whole reason that John Lear got involved with this, 695 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:34,040 and was so public, is because they were trying to take heat off Iran-Contra. 696 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:35,040 Full circle. 697 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:36,040 We've covered this, right? 698 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,040 We didn't cover it in full, but yes, we have covered it. 699 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:40,040 No, not in full. 700 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,040 It was kind of like a byproduct of the drugs episode. 701 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:45,040 But what the f- 702 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,040 This guy has his fingers in so many different things. 703 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,040 That I wasn't even expecting that. 704 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:51,040 Yeah. 705 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:57,040 And Chelsea, unfortunately, the story does end with John Lear dying in his sleep on March 706 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:58,040 29, 2022. 707 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,040 He was 79 years old at the time. 708 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,040 Oh, that's not that long ago. 709 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,040 He was still in the UFO community. 710 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,040 Like I said, Jormer Corbelle, the whole reason he's in the UFO community is because of John Lear. 711 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:14,040 Well, apparently, the whole reason a lot of people are doing this is because of John Lear. 712 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,040 And I still can't find a good reason as to why. 713 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,040 Like, what information did he have? 714 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:21,040 Any first hand information. 715 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,040 He collected it and he bought it from books. 716 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,040 I mean, the first hand information would have been like the weird stuff he was making up 717 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,040 in between, but that to me doesn't seem good enough. 718 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:32,040 That's not first hand information. 719 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:33,040 That's speculation. 720 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:34,040 Yeah. 721 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:38,040 But yeah, the whole reason like Jormer Corbelle and George Knapp did that episode of their 722 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,040 podcast on John Lear was because it was a year after his death. 723 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:42,040 So they were reminiscing on it. 724 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,040 So I get why they don't want to say bad things about him. 725 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,040 At the same time, George, I like you a lot. 726 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,040 But you need to be critical of information. 727 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:55,040 You can't just say, look, I'm not here to say whether or not things he was saying were lies or not. 728 00:37:55,040 --> 00:38:00,040 And he specifically says that in the episode, which is something that I like about George Knapp. 729 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,040 Not that he said that, that he is actually critical of things. 730 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:09,040 I wonder if he has made any comments on it that weren't specifically on that episode. 731 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:13,040 But I couldn't find anything where George Knapp is negative. 732 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,040 They do talk about his more outlandish lies in that episode. 733 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,040 Like that there's 73 alien races living on the sun. 734 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,040 But also there's a ton I didn't talk about. 735 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,040 These are just how it connects to their episodes. 736 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,040 He had a theory that 9-11 was a hologram. 737 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,040 He has very outlandish views a lot of the time. 738 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:37,040 This leaves me confused because everybody else has directly had a hand in this, but he kind of... 739 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:44,040 Well, and that's why I wonder that last little speculation that he started to get heavily involved in the UFO community 740 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,040 to have other information coming out, make Iran Contra not as public. 741 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:56,040 It's interesting. I don't know if I endorse it or not, but it definitely gives you at least a reason why he's doing this. 742 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,040 Oh, it's true. And I'm looking for a reason right now. 743 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,040 So, okay, I can get behind that, I guess, because I need a reason. 744 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,040 Other than that, there's seemingly no reason. 745 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,040 And this episode, are we done? 746 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,040 Yeah, that's the end of my episode. 747 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:17,040 And I feel like we had more people tied into this, making it in even larger branches extending out. 748 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,040 And I knew that the was largely involved with like the George Knapp gang. 749 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:25,040 I just love how many different events we got to see from another angle because of this. 750 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:33,040 No matter how much we cover this, I'm still always disappointed that this is the UFO community. 751 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:38,040 Because so much... I say it every episode, I think I've even said it this episode. 752 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:44,040 So much of the core ideas of the UFO community even today come out of this. 753 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:50,040 Everything from these few episodes where we're talking about it and still to this day ends up going back to Doty and Moore. 754 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:56,040 Yeah, just think it's crazy. He's not even directly tied to them. It doesn't seem like... 755 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:57,040 Yes, somehow it would... 756 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:05,040 Well, I could not find anything where they possible about each other, except for, you know, Dillmore said that Lear's stuff came from Benowich, which was fed through him. 757 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:13,040 But weirdly enough, they're both involved in Nevada Mofon and like I can't find actual interactions between the two of them other than him setting up the speed. 758 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:19,040 It's weird. I will say that much. It is weird. And why else would he be spending time with Benowich? 759 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,040 He spent several days and pissed him off somehow. 760 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:28,040 So there's something that seems to be still there underneath like more to the story somehow. 761 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:34,040 But yeah, that's where I have this one left off. I was happy to shine a light on this guy because I've always vaguely heard the name. 762 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:35,040 No, I quite... 763 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,040 Very common guest on Coast to Coast. 764 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:39,040 Very, yeah. 765 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:40,040 Yeah, that's the story. 766 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,040 This is why I couldn't quite please him because he doesn't seem to have any for me. 767 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,040 He doesn't have a role, really. He really does. 768 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,040 He distinctly pleases him. 769 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:53,040 It's not distinct, but I've heard the name. As always, this leaves me feeling... 770 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:54,040 Underwhelmed. 771 00:40:54,040 --> 00:41:04,040 And with that, I have been Taylor here with Chelsea. We are Journey to the Fringe. Thank you all for listening and we'll see you next week. 772 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:05,040 Bye. 773 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:18,040 Thank you for listening to Journey to the Fringe. If you have liked what you have listened to, please like, share, subscribe, or follow, depending on what venue you are listening to us through. 774 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:24,040 Also, please, if possible, leave a 5-star review as that really helps us in the algorithms. 775 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:31,040 Should you wish to interact with us, please check us out on your social media of choice. I bet you we are there. 776 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:42,040 And if you really want to communicate with us and give us ideas for new episodes or tell us that we're wrong and terrible, either way, please send us an email at journeytothefringeatgmail.com. 777 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:49,040 For now, I'll see you in the next episode.