From the unexplained to the mundane, come join us on a journey to the fringe.
Hello and welcome to Journey to the Fringe, reminding you, if multiverse theory is correct,
there is a universe where Bill Moore became famous instead of Bill Nye, the science guy.
And that universe received Bill Moore the science bore.
And there's also another universe where they went with the even spicier rhyme.
We are your friendly reminding host, Taylor and Chelsea, today finishing off our Bill
Moore saga.
I at least hope.
I know it's interesting, but I don't want to talk about Bill Moore anymore.
He's just not a good person.
And no matter how hard I try, I'm just going to forget about him once we're done here.
I know, right?
Thank you for that lovely intro.
You're welcome.
The multiverses are just a never-ending gift that keep on giving.
Here we are.
The fourth, is it fourth?
The fourth episode, somehow.
The final round at Bill Moore.
Unless you want another one.
I was kidding.
I'd never do that.
I'm already forgetting who Bill Moore is.
So before I forget completely, let's finish this episode and let's see what shenanigans
old Bill gets up to on this episode.
Pretty good for a guy who fades into the background for episodes.
At first, to recap, of course, I always have to recap.
So far we have covered the books that Moore had taken part in, which contributed to the
prominent ideas surrounding UFOs.
It's really amazing.
All of these ideas that came out at this time that kind of shaped how we look at everything
today.
It's kind of crazy to think of it that way.
We're still holding on to it.
It's not just Reaganomics that's reshaped our world.
Yeah.
It's also this guy whose name we can't remember, with Richard Dodie and others.
We've also taken a look at the disinformation surrounding the role Moore played in the Paul
Bennewit saga, as well, we've taken a look at MJ12, which we finished up with on the
last episode.
But that episode kind of partially takes part in the past and in the future of this episode.
So pretend like for this episode, you know about MJ12, but like we don't know what Bill
Moore is up to yet.
We think Bill Moore is like this totally legit dude who wrote those books that we really
like.
And he sits on the board at ARPO and he wrote the Roswell book.
And the other one that I always forget what it's called, Philadelphia experiment.
And Bennewit isn't even really on the radar yet, but I had to put it in the story for
you because we're going through all his life in this artistic podcast.
So now we're taking it back to like just a UFO enthusiast perspective on this episode.
So basically just be happy about UFOs and the hard work Bill Moore is doing for UFOs
right now.
I think we got it.
I think we're set up.
Are you sure you could use the word hard work?
He's doing stuff.
The half ass nature.
He's existing.
Yeah, he's existing.
As Bill Moore.
Bill Moore is like this fucking good researcher.
MJ12 has been swirling around.
We know the story seems cool that these government documents have been leaked.
We're like, wow, maybe this could be really something.
But there's some controversy starting to swirl around with these documents that they
might be fake.
And some people are trying to debunk them at this time.
And some people are even beginning to talk about more and his involvement with the MJ12
documents to which Bill Moore immediately strikes back in the Mufon UFO Journal January
1989.
I was going to cut this up, but it's too good.
And it's not actually that long.
So I present to you without comment, at least before I read it.
MJ12 an open letter.
This is Bill Moore.
This is the article to be clear.
I had hoped that it would never be necessary for me to write a letter like this.
However, in light of numerous allegations, rumors and accusations presently being circulated
about me in my work, an indirect response to a vicious guilt by innuendo article on
the MJ12 matter, which I am reliably informed is currently being prepared by CISAP, I don't
know, CSICOP.
That's how I pronounce it.
Spokesman Kendrick Frazier, in close concert with Phil Klass, it seems appropriate to make
some sort of statement, which will clear the air.
This is me talking now.
This is not the article.
I love this for him.
He's not even waiting to see what this article says about him.
He's putting it out before the article comes out.
This is more understanding of himself than I thought he had.
Somebody's writing about me?
Oh shit, it's probably bad.
I know.
Okay, he goes on.
First of all, let me begin by stating for the record that I am not a forger, a hoaxer,
a fabricator, or a counterfeiter, nor to the best of my knowledge have I ever participated
in any illegal or un-American activity in connection with my more than eight year involvement
with the MJ12 controversy.
This has been going on a while.
Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge and belief, none of my colleagues and associates
have participated in any such activities either.
Bullshit.
So nobody he worked with as Forged Dog.
No, never.
Never, never.
They're too ethical.
Rumors circulating to the effect that I am some sort of government agent or disinformation
expert are totally false.
In spite of pronouncements made principally by John Lear and other associates with him,
I am not on the US governments or any other governments.
Love how he points that out.
Payroll.
Whether the MJ12 and associated documents are authentic and indeed whether the entire
MJ12 story has any truth to it all remains an entirely open question.
I and my colleagues have conducted our investigation into this matter in our own way and essentially
outside of the UFO community at large.
The information which we have made available concerning this process has been entirely
in keeping with our own methods and objectives.
What has been withheld has been withheld for good reason.
It is no secret that many of you who read this letter have voiced strong objections
to the way things have gone.
Some having raised valid questions which remain unanswered have wrongly assumed that there
are no answers and have seen fit to vent their frustrations by pointing an accusing finger.
Others perhaps seeing the controversy surrounding MJ12 as some sort of threatened their own
stature as self-styled UFO experts or skeptics have chosen the convenience of dismissing
the entire matter out of hand rather than prudence of withholding judgment until all
the facts are in.
To individuals in both of these rushed to judgment groups, my advice is simply be calm
and be patient.
We have every intention of getting to the bottom of this matter and we have every intention
of making a full and complete disclosure once this process is complete.
Until that time, I and my colleagues are going to continue to follow our own counsel and
do things on our own way, preferably with the support of the UFO community, but if necessary
without it.
I mean it's been eight years already Bill.
It's a long process.
I personally love, yeah we definitely cover things, not in a timely manner.
There's not a lot of in fact recent events that we've covered on this podcast, but it
makes for some great comments where they're like don't worry stuff will come out in the
near future.
Yeah and then it doesn't.
And then we're 34 years in the future.
Yeah, no kidding.
He goes on.
Once the entire story comes out is our firm conviction that all of the dark spots in this
very strange picture puzzle will become clear and we will all have answers to many of the
questions which now exist about the true nature of our government's involvement with the UFO
phenomenon.
I mean we are kind of now, I mean not really they're just saying yeah about UFOs and this
isn't even due to Bill Moore.
We seem to be going through the same cyclical process that happens every 20 years or so.
It's true.
Meanwhile it seems completely inappropriate at this time for members of the UFO community
and skeptics alike to continue to assail my methods or to cast Asperhenchins.
I feel like it's apprehension.
Apprehensions.
But yeah he's still to roll.
He definitely wrote Asperishions.
Asper-shins.
I don't know.
Oh, okay.
In order to be more of an integrity and honesty through grapevine, gossip and typically half-baked
poorly researched journalism of the skeptical inquirer, equally inappropriate is the continuing
high level of sheer speculation concerning the true identities of the two sources who
appeared on the UFO Cover Up Live show under the codenames Falcon and Condor.
In the eight weeks since the airing of the show, the controversy has grown to such outrageous
proportions that to date Falcon has been reliably identified as no less than three different
people and Condor as five.
For obvious reasons, my position continues to be one of no comment with respect to who
any of my sources might be.
Let's just take a pause.
UFO Cover Up Live was like a movie thingy which was a live special focusing on the government's
handling of information regarding UFOs.
The special pays particular attention to whether there has been any suppression of
evidence supporting the existence of UFOs, included our interviews with Washington officials,
supposedly eyewitnesses and a look at the government documents, photographs and film
clips.
These two people appeared on here, Falcon and Condor, and I believe their voice were
masked and they appeared anonymous.
Bill Moore talks about this a lot because obviously they know that they were in contact
with Bill Moore.
This is the first time I heard Condor come up because I know he talked to Falcon but
he also, Doty was sparrow.
I don't remember the term Condor.
I don't really know.
Falcon is Richard Doty.
I don't know what the frick is going on with this and Bill Moore is the one that gave these
people their names so I don't even know but I just had to address that.
I don't even know why Bill Moore keeps talking about this so much.
He addresses it again later I think.
Yeah, you almost feel like it would have served him better to ask pretty much everybody these
days does with their controversial views.
Just ignore people or just label it mainstream media and continue on with what she wants.
Yeah, and I didn't watch the UFO special.
I probably should have because it comes up a couple of times but I just didn't have
the time.
I wonder if they don't say something about Bill Moore or something like that but this
is all speculation so here I am talking about that.
Let's get on with the article, shall we?
Deep, the identity of any or all of the 10 inside contacts I and my colleagues have developed
is ultimately a far less importance than the fact that to date four of them have agreed
to tell their story before members of Congress.
As of this writing, commitments are currently being sought from the others and negotiations
are underway with two members of Congress who have expressed interest in the matter.
If we are successful in these efforts then the entire matter of the credibility of sources
and the authenticity of documents will have been placed in a form entirely out of our
hands and the questions of Bill Moore's or Jamie Chanderra's or Stan Friedman's motives,
methods and credibility will no longer be an issue.
It is towards such an end that we actively seek the unity and support of the entire UFO
community.
At the Washington DC Mufon UFO Supposium of June of 1987 when we first brought the essence
of this matter to the attention of the UFO community and the public, I asked for assistance
and support from anyone interested in helping us get to the bottom of it.
Some of you joined that effort, most did not.
Many of you remained properly skeptical and in so doing put the lie to oft repeated charges
of a few hardline UFO bashers that most ufologists are much too gullible or credulous for their
own good.
Others who disagreed with our way of doing things and apparently saw us as some sort of
threat to the well-being of ufology in general and themselves in particular saw it fit to
throw as many rocks in our direction as they possibly could.
It is now time to put those emotions aside and pull together in an effort to bring this
matter to a conclusion.
As Jerry Clark noted in an international UFO reporter editorial over a year ago, the MJ-12
affair, unlike most other aspects of ufology, is one where it is possible to obtain answers,
one way or the other.
If this information is real and the sources providing it are bona fide, then we have a
major story on our hands.
If, on the other hand, it turns out to be some sort of eight year long, elaborate disinformation
scheme or even an outright hoax, then we have an equally important story of another type.
In either case, the truth will ultimately be made known and once that happens, ufology
will go on.
Petty, bickering, and emotional tirades have no place in this search for the truth and
they are unbecoming to a field of study which is well on its way to becoming a recognized
area of scientific and journalistic endeavor.
We have every intention of seeing our work through to its conclusion, what your role
will be in the process is entirely up to you.
This letter then is intended as an olive branch from me and my associates to you, ufologists,
skeptic, and ufo basher alike.
Our goal like yours is to ultimately get to the bottom of this very important matter,
it is our belief that progress towards this end will be better served by a united effort
than by continued animosity.
If you agree, please let me hear from you in the near future.
End of article, ended with an editor's note, the fund for ufo research launched a successful
drive to raise $16,000 for further research into the MJ12 controversy under a contract
with Stan T. Freedman.
That's the end of that.
What do we think of that?
I just like how time answers a lot of the questions.
This would have been gripping in the late 80s, early 90s to see like not really know
what's gonna come from it.
Yeah, so I know we're supposed to pretend like we don't know what's gonna happen with
the MJ12 documents and Bill Moore.
I mean, you shouldn't really know what happens with Bill Moore unless for personal reasons
you already know.
That's fine.
I would hope you wouldn't skip towards the end of this episode.
Yes, in which case, hello Bill Moore.
It's very nice to have you with the whole story.
The only person who can remember who you are.
But we see the same things as we did with Paul Benowitz.
Now the Paul Benowitz stuff technically comes after this, but like I said at the beginning
for like storytelling purposes and I went in the actual timeline of things, it comes
after, but we see the same kind of thing.
He's gaslighting the shit out of people who are seeing things from a different perspective
than what he is doing.
He's like, well, I'm doing this, but I mean, you're wrong if you are being skeptical of
what I'm going to say.
How dare you?
Yeah, and he does it in a very, what's the word?
Pretentious way.
He thinks he's better.
In a very pretentious way, incredibly.
So there's that.
And I was really happy to stumble upon that in putting this together.
I always lose this guy speaks for himself and I love it.
I don't think we really had anyone speak for themselves like this.
That's not true.
The entire first two episodes of David Wilcock are in fact from his blog.
Yeah, that's true.
That's another good one.
Whenever we're letting somebody speak for themselves, you know it's a good episode.
That's true.
We're lucky.
Okay.
Next, we meet up with more July 1st, 1989.
So let me just reiterate this timeline.
This article was January 1989.
So then we jump ahead to July 1989.
So it's about six months after he wrote this article.
I'm sure he's been up to stuff during this time.
But to be honest, this is the last episode.
I'm strapped for time, so nobody worry about how we got here.
July 1st, 1989.
Maura is giving a lecture, I guess, if you would like to consider it that at the Mufon
Symposium in Las Vegas.
Shit's getting heated now about the MJ12 documents regarding the origin and authenticity of the
documents and his own credibility.
I'm sure that article has come out by that time that he was striking first at.
First strikes back again, if you could call this striking back.
I know what you're thinking.
He already struck back with that open letter.
Not good enough, my friends.
This is the Mufon Symposium speech that we all wish we had front row tickets for.
It was like Dylan going electric.
I hope you know that didn't go well for Dylan.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure if that's lost.
Famously always going on tour with his electric guitars nowadays.
I'm sorry I have to send you this link just for you to.
I just wanted there for the guy yelling Judas.
So we're going to get that inputted right here for the episode just because I think
it will be funny.
Okay, let's begin.
More.
The keynote speaker for Saturday evening had yet to arrive at the Sands Casino Hotel
for the conference.
It had been previously arranged that he would stay elsewhere.
His presentation was slated for one and a half hours.
And this is Bill Morris keynote, right?
Yeah, it would go on for two hours.
There were no questions and answers to follow it well.
There were, but he provided the Q&A's himself like nobody else could do it.
He would exit immediately through a rear door to avoid any confrontation and there were
outcries of derision and threatening remarks throughout the lecture which caused Mufon
Nevada State Director John Lear to call repeatedly to order.
The speech now lives in infamy.
Now, before I begin, Taylor, would you be surprised if I told you that this is the exact
speech where I got majority of the quotes, I would say 99% from her Bill Moore on Paul
Benowitz episode?
No way.
Yes.
To a group of colleagues that he could do the exact same thing to, he talks about how
he was asking for it.
Yeah.
Yeah, actually, it tracks with everything that we've learned so far about the guy.
I'm not going to touch on any of the Paul Benowitz stuff he talks about in this episode
because he already spoke that for himself in the Paul Benowitz episode.
But now let's just reflect on this all for a moment.
Now that you've reflected about the Paul Benowitz stuff, let's talk about the speech.
I'm going to just summarize it up for a little bit and then I'll give you some more good
stuff.
He gives what becomes a two hour long speech and I'm going to summarize it for you right
now.
I'm Bill Moore.
If you don't know me, but you most likely do because I'm like this really good UFO
researcher.
Couple jokes here, couple jokes there.
I'm pretty great, but hey, it was in bed with the government spreading this information
and I was involved with the Paul Benowitz affair.
My actions were totally justified because the government is up to something.
Benowitz, he was crazy.
He deserved it.
I was there to work behind the government's back because they were hiding something and
I'm such a good researcher and who better to find out what they're hiding than me.
There's a couple other things I leaked, but didn't actually leak.
There was disinformation about the Aztec UFO.
Yeah, those MJ12 documents.
I never said one way or the other whether they're real.
True or not, it's all about UFOs anyway.
And I was looking for the truth.
I'm not going to disinformation agent these days anyway and I'm a really good researcher
and so on and so on.
I hope you fucking die.
Get him.
I am.
Lots of hot air was spilled.
The speeches, it's so weird.
He's a keynote speaker, yet he's still giving his complete autobiography to the audience
if he's not there to officially join the asshole of the UFO community club.
I include a lot of, like I said, just to reiterate a lot of it in the Paul Benowitz episode and
there's just a lot of contradictions justifying his actions and victim blaming.
It gives the same feels as the article I just read.
So let's take a look a little bit closer at some of the things he says.
He starts out, well, ladies and gentlemen, friends and enemies, associates and colleagues,
in short, fellow euphologies.
I had really wanted to come here tonight and kick ass.
But fortunately for us, all wiser heads have prevailed and we are going to keep this presentation
as professional as possible.
I might also add that my talk is primarily directed to those of you who are members of
the UFO community.
That is not to suggest that those of you who are here as third parties won't find it interesting.
It is just that you might not be able to follow some of the in-house comments that I'm going
to make as opposed to the outhouse comments, which I shall try to avoid even though in
some cases they might be appropriate.
So that's how it starts out.
This is a Mufang conference.
What?
Third parties don't go to those.
Probably not.
I just find it just adds to the pompousness of him.
Pretentious in age, yeah.
The pretentious as if he's so much.
I feel like only a person now that's not.
So far in all the assholes that we've seen, they've all had that similar quality about
themselves.
Have they not?
I feel like they have.
I'm thinking back to all of them.
I think they do.
Yeah, I think they do.
You know what?
It really depends on what you think of Bozzy Ago and whether or not he's an asshole or
not.
I don't take him as pretentious.
Just a man with a presidential campaign.
There's one I wouldn't link in with this, but I find a majority do you think they're
better than everybody else?
Yes.
He really goes for it to make the people who have anything to say against him feel like
they're wrong.
He's not coming.
I don't even know how to say the speech that he gives is kind of being like, I didn't really
do anything wrong.
And if you are going to be skeptical against me, then I mean, that's your problem.
Like you're, you're in the wrong for that is really the feels that it gives me.
We continue.
I earn the respect of many of you in the audience and I expect that my reputation and credibility
with respect to the Roswell case is at least partly responsible for my having been invited
to speak here tonight.
I urge you to keep that in mind.
If you are one of those who respected my work on Roswell, also doubtful, then I ask you
to consider that I am trying to carry on the same sort of quality investigation with respect
to the project I am currently working on.
It's just that the percums...
Yeah.
I just want to add at this point, this is nine years after he came out with the Roswell
book.
He came out in 1980.
He's really not done anything substantive since then.
Like he has to lean back on that.
Yeah.
He sabotaged Paul Benowitz and he was involved with him.
I mean, yeah, he hasn't, he didn't put out any other books.
Like he's written a few other articles here and there, mostly defending himself.
Yeah.
But nothing substantial.
He's written a few presentations about MJ12, but like, yeah, nothing substantive.
He has to go back almost a decade to say, like, remember how you guys trusted him.
And he was probably like foaming at the mouth to like get the MJ12 documents to put a book
out now that I think about it.
Let's continue on.
It's just that the circumstances are quite different and I have not been in a position
until now to properly inform others about what I have been doing.
This unfortunately has given rise to considerable controversy with a number of falsehoods that
have been spread by others in the UFO community who saw it fit to jump on hasty conclusions
inappropriately formed without benefit of all the facts.
This is a different section.
Others of you who have chosen to cast aspersions and throw rocks in my direction out of fear
that I might uncover something which will upstage your own efforts will undoubtedly
take great pains to dissect what I have to say here in an effort to find more reasons
to question my integrity.
No matter.
I jump ahead again.
I feel like he took a little bit of that from his other article.
Yeah, it was.
And then next thought moreover in every case where a breakthrough was achieved and progress
was made, it is the achiever who is remembered and honored by history and not the debunker
who said it couldn't be done.
Bottom line here is that the UFO phenomenon is a legitimate subject for study by anyone
in our free society who chooses to do so.
Others who have elected to participate in such a question not be held up to derision
and ridicule because of it.
Those debunkers and UFO bashers who have nothing positive to contribute are advised to go and
massage their egos somewhere else.
In my opinion, such people have no right whatsoever to dictate to others what is fit for study
and what is.
Yeah, this is my ego massaging area.
Massage tables are full.
I build more and the only one who is free to do what I want.
Massage tables are full.
Yeah.
I can't believe that.
He's like, I'm going to do what I want and anybody who has anything negative to say can
fuck off.
Like straight up fuck off.
Everyone should be believing what I say.
Next thought, I would like to take a moment to ask each and every member of this audience
to reach down inside yourself and come up with a true answer to a very important and
very difficult question.
I thought he was going to pull an Oprah.
Reach down.
Under your chair.
I don't even know what Bill Moore would give.
Probably nothing.
I don't think he's very rich.
There is an empty envelope.
What you say publicly has no meaning in this process.
It is what you know inside yourself to be the truth that matters.
I want you to ask yourself why you were involved with the UFO phenomenon.
You truly desire answers no matter what those answers may be and no matter how much those
answers may be at variance with what you presently believe about UFOs or are you one
of those people who thrives on continuing mystery?
It was very position in the field of ufology requires that the mystery of UFOs be perpetuated
rather than solved so that you can continue in your self-styled role of importance and
leadership.
I don't know Bill Moore.
Did he seriously just say the most objective truth?
Yes.
That's the reason we're all here to find a truth that is only true to us deep down inside.
Yes.
Not actually true.
As for myself, I made a decision a number of years ago as a result of having suddenly
found myself face to face with an opportunity to learn more about what our government knows
about UFOs.
I believe then and I continue to believe now that it is possible to uncover answers by
searching carefully and completely for them in the right places.
Finding those answers and thus ending my so-called career as a ufologist poses no problems at
all for me.
As a writer, I am interested in a variety of subjects.
Many of them non-UFO related.
Should I go as far as I feel I can with the UFO question?
I have plenty of other fish to fry, many of which are just as interesting and every bit
is challenging.
The truth fellow ufologist is that I have known precisely what I am doing all along.
This fucking guy.
I like this.
He gives us an analogy.
I want to hear what you have to say especially about this Taylor.
I'm really interested.
Okay, he goes on.
This is all the same thought by the way.
Consider the strange case of Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones and the jury.
You, the audience, are the jury and because I only have one interactive audience member
right now, you're the jury Taylor.
Okay.
Mr. Smith is dead.
Mr. Jones is being tried for the murder.
The prosecutor stands before you and gives you these facts, here's the facts.
On the police arrived in response to a complaint that a fight was in process.
Mr. Smith was found lying dead on the floor of his apartment.
The cause of death was strangulation and the body was still warm.
Mr. Jones was found bending over the body with his hands still around the victim's
throat.
Neighbors and others who knew both men have testified that there was considerable animosity
between the two of them and then on more than one occasion, Mr. Jones was threatened.
Mr. Smith's safety and well-being.
Obviously, Jones had gone to see Smith and a violent argument ensued during which Jones
strangled Smith.
Unfortunately for Jones, the police arrived before he was able to affect an escape from
the scene.
You're the jury.
Is this sufficient evidence to condemn Mr. Jones for murder?
Okay, yeah, yeah, it is.
It is.
Okay, that's what I thought because he did murder him.
And he's still like literally choking, strangling a corpse as they're there.
I myself came to the same conclusion.
Let's hear what Moore has to say because I feel like he's going somewhere with us.
In these cases, if that's all they're going to say and that's the entire trial, then
yes, guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Oh yeah.
If you're going to hear the other side of it.
Yeah.
Then maybe I don't know, but.
Yeah.
Okay, I re-open and shut.
You bring up a good point, but it does feel like you murdered him, doesn't it?
Yeah.
Okay, a significant minority who listened to my Smith and Jones scenario, like yes, we
did, we're sitting right here, Bill Moore, however, hesitated before passing judgment.
What is Mr. Jones' defense they wanted to know?
And of course, that's really what it's all about.
In the case of Smith and Jones, the truth is that it was Smith who invited Jones to
his apartment with the intention of quietly doing him in and disposing of the body before
anyone was the wiser.
Jones, however, turned the tables on Smith and accidentally killed him in the process
of self-defense.
So yeah, he did murder him.
He did in the end murder him still.
Yeah, they're saying that it was self-defense, but he likely took it too far and he no longer
has a right to self-defense as a defense to murder because generally it's very rare to
say that you're allowed to take self-defense to murder.
Yeah.
Who end a life.
I mean, in my opinion, whether it was self-defense or not, like he still did murder the guy.
Well yeah, but what he's saying is if you're on the jury, then you've reacted too fast and
technically he has a defense you haven't heard.
Yeah.
Like that's the whole point.
In which case, I guess so, yeah, in which case, I mean, you're probably going to hear
that and we're getting his story right now.
I just like his little scenario there.
Yeah.
Fools, for you did not realize that I have came up with this scenario specifically for
my own purposes.
How did you not realize this?
You fools, for if you doubt me, you are wrong.
If you are a fucking idiot.
Okay.
So he also addresses MJ 12, he says quote, the anonymous arrival of the so-called MJ
12 documents in December of 84 was another factor we had to contend with in this increasingly
confusing web problem of their origin and authenticity was and remains a major issue.
And on this point, our position of neutrality has constantly been misrepresented.
Therefore, for the record, it's important to point out here again that at no time have
either I or any of my associates ever stated that these documents are authentic.
Our position has consistently been that we do not know whether they are authentic, but
that we as investigators remain unaware of any convincing evidence, which would suggest
that they are not.
Keep in mind at this point, he's already addressed the Paul Bennewitz stuff that I said in the
Paul Bennewitz episode, he's going on to MJ 12 now.
He also goes on, it seems important to note here that what you are witnessing was the
operation of a plan to put out just enough information of this bizarre information to
attract attention.
This is MJ 12 and then carefully monitor who showed up with questions to ask or information
to offer.
Once again, I was careful to state that I remain unconvinced at the authenticity of
the information involved.
Yeah, right.
Chelsea, I just need to go back to that part.
He very specifically said that I've never said these are authentic and then just said
they're authentic.
Correct.
Oh yeah, you cut one of his contradictions.
Yeah, okay.
It's rife with these.
It is.
It's definitely rife with these.
I never said these authentic documents are authentic, you idiots.
Angel, when he has a different point to make and a different point of the paper, he changes
it like it's crazy.
It's revolving for what suits him at that time.
Also seemingly in direct relationship to our partial release of MJ 12 material two years
ago, the flow of UFO related disinformation has escalated from a point of near insignificance
to what has become almost a flood tide.
Indeed, many of you in the audience came here tonight looking for answers to questions
related directly to that problem.
As I have taken great pains to point out, the current crop of disinformation is really
nothing new.
So it fills up the hook because everyone's doing it as nothing new.
It's just that a different crop of people are spreading it this time around.
I expect that those responsible, not the rumor mongers themselves, but the ones who
are feeding them thought it would work just as well this time as it did last.
The one thing I'm sure they didn't count on is that I would tell my story and thus
become the fly in the ointment.
Those are some good highlights.
A lot of them also disclosed by me and Benowitz.
Remember that because I said it like five times now.
To end the whole speech, he aids his own cues as to probably avoid a riot.
Here are some of my faves.
Question number two, am I presently involved in knowingly spreading any sort of disinformation
about UFOs?
Answer, no.
The only conscious involvement I have ever had with the disinformation operation was
that I have already outlined in connection with the Benowitz case.
That's it.
Question number three, am I presently or have I ever been on the payroll of any agency
of the US government?
Answer, no.
He did that all for free folks.
Yeah, without me.
It was for pleasure purposes.
Those are just some of the questions and answers.
There is a handful of them.
I don't know how many, but we got to get on with the episode.
He then goes on to give his position on literally everything under the fucking sun.
I'll give you a few, obviously.
Position number five, we have been able to confirm that there is in fact a group known
as MJ12, which operates at the White House National Security Council level.
To the best of my knowledge, this group still uses the MJ12 designator.
The level of security around this group is such that we have not yet succeeded in establishing
whether or not its functions are UFO related or precisely how long it has been in existence.
Along these same lines, none of our sources have indicated any knowledge whatsoever of
terms such as Magi, Majesty, PL40, Plato, Garnet, or a number of other terms currently
circulating within the UFO Great Byte.
I feel like this also directly contradicts what he said in his speech.
Yeah, well, it's like the documents themselves, like clearly identify when MJ12 would have
been started, the original members, the orders to do it.
I guess technically he's saying since these aren't authentic, this is all relied on an
external, or sorry, not authentic, but not confirmed to be authentic.
Therefore, he's relying on external sources that he's heard outside of those documents.
I don't know.
This is weird.
I, isn't it weird?
And like for him to give the position of I've never confirmed or denied like anything to
do with MJ12.
And then at the end, I do understand the separation here in that he's saying that the documents
themselves have never been confirmed, nor have I ever said they're authentic.
But it is.
Anyhow, these authentic documents do tell me that MJ12 is real and MJ12 does still exist.
And I've learned that from outside sources.
Yeah.
Okay.
Fair enough.
Bill Moore.
The controversial MJ12 papers.
These have now been examined by a number of question documents experts and other research
on them is continuing as well.
As you've just heard from my good friend, Stanton, I don't know.
In the case of the Cutler Twining Memo found in the National Archives, I can state with
reasonable certainty that it is an authentic document and that best evidence indicates
that someone planted it amidst the papers in record group 341, knowing that there is
a strong chance we would find it there.
With respect to the so-called Eisenhower Briefing Document, there is no compelling reason to
believe it is anything but authentic.
On the other hand, its authenticity remains far from proved.
So, in the final analysis, the scale remains balanced by the weight of arguments on both
sides.
If it's the real thing, it's going to take extraordinary evidence to convince even some
of the more liberal skeptics.
If it's a hoax, it's extraordinarily well done.
In either case, there's a major story here and the controversy is far from over.
As for the so-called Truman Executive Order of September 24, 1947, which is actually the
final page of the portion of the Eisenhower document which we have, the analysts have
come up with mixed results.
I'm not yet disproved.
This document presents the weakest case of the three.
We are not yet prepared to release a final report on this matter.
Before leaving it, however, I would like to at least comment on what has emerged as the
most controversial aspect of the MJ-12 document affair.
That of the date format.
There are a couple of points I would like to make.
Similarities between stylistic characteristics of the documents and my own writings are important
and are not dissimilarities equally important.
There are some, you know, even in the way the dates are written.
Why do those who go to such pains to point out similarities not go to equal pains to
point out dissimilarities?
Could it, I wonder, be prejudice?
Or does the word incompetence better describe it?
We are by no means convinced that the date format is as critical an issue as others would
make it out to be.
While the style is admittedly unusual, it is not without precedent.
To those of you who still harbor suspicions that I created the documents and I am perpetuating
a hoax, I say thank you for the compliment.
To those of you who think it is more likely that I am an innocent victim of an elaborate
hoax, I can see that this remains a possibility which has not yet been entirely ruled out.
I do really like actually that he is admitting he could very well have fallen for disinformation
several times in there.
Like about how the memo was planted in the archives for him to find probably.
That was his stance on the MJ12 document.
That's why I put it in there.
At the time of the speech, that was his stance on the MJ12 documents.
We do know how that ends.
In the last episode.
I'm just here telling you guys a story in an artistic way.
That's the Mufon speech.
Let's hold our comments for after.
So after the Mufon speech, more all but disappears from the UFO world.
I know that's a surprise.
Aside from an interview he wrote some articles.
This whole speech was laid out in a Mufon UFO journal.
I was able to take some stuff out of there.
Weird it ended for him.
However, Dodie is still somehow going real strong.
Even what we know about Dodie.
So it is odd that it ended for him here.
Maybe it's.
No, Dodie.
Like I saw him in like interviews on major news networks this year.
Like 2023.
Yeah.
Through to everything going on right now.
I was just going to say what was that in regards to Taylor?
Yeah, it was the David Grusk congressional statements.
Weird.
Yeah.
We might cover that in about 30 years or so.
Yeah.
Give us some time to see how it settles.
The few interviews he does after the speech not only says he's still a controlled informant
1992 UFO volume seven.
Number one, he also goes on to throw other people under the bus.
Moore insisted that there were other ufologists engaged in the same game spreading bogus concepts
that came to be tenants of ufology.
What could he possibly mean by he wasn't the only one?
Well he says that over and over in his speech for one.
But you're in luck.
June 11th, 1994 during an interview, Moore says there were a lot of other ufologists involved
with this and I never discussed this before.
He alluded to it a whole lot.
One of those others was J.L.
Lynn Heineck who did covert work who knew what he was doing and he was very much involved
with one phase of disinformation operation that was used in the Benowitz affair.
Heineck was part of this operation.
He was under contract to the Air Force and I have a copy of that contract in case anybody
wants to contest this.
A general discussion of the Benowitz story followed on that interview after a commercial
break the host asked him about alluding to other prominent ufologists involved in this
information in Moore's 1989 Lupin speech.
Moore says about this.
Yes.
There are others and one of them I just named off Mike and that will come up in focus and
I'm sure that's going to be very controversial because that individual has written a number
of books.
It's about time some of these other people had to answer for some of the things they're
doing.
Then on August 10th, 2000 in Saucer Smear Moore said the following regarding the Benowitz
affair in general two things which have never come to light in which might prove most interesting
to ufology are the roles played by Dr. J.L.
Lynn Heineck and Jacques Vili.
I personally know that Heineck was still under contract of USAF consultant at that time and
Vili had very close ties with the CIA and others.
Although what his obligations to them may have been I do not know.
Are those still hoping to uncover some hidden treasure in this whole mess?
Here's a good place to begin.
Heineck's hitherto unknown forte had to do with providing Benowitz a carefully crafted
means of decoding the supposed alien transmissions he was intercepting.
As for Vili, numerous clues pertaining to his particular specialty can be gleaned by
a careful rereading of his book, Messengers of Deception.
That's actually not where it ends in Greg Bishop's group project Beta.
Moore contributed more thoughts.
After the close of project Blue Book in 1969, J.L.
Lynn Heineck had reportedly continued to receive $5,000 a year, one of thousands of academics
the government keeps on payroll in case they might be needed.
Sort of like egghead sleeper agents.
There's more, but I think you get the idea.
He just went on to be like, yeah, well, I'm not the only one into oblivion to the end.
And I don't think anyone's heard from him.
And that's when he rode off into the sunset.
Yeah, so I'm sure he's living a happy life now.
And that's my episode.
How do we feel about that?
That is actually the first time I've ever heard Jacques Vallée brought up with regards
to disinformation campaigns.
I don't exactly trust Bill Moore, so I will definitely have to look into this myself.
He said that he had proof and it didn't provide any proof.
No.
Yes.
And then the contract turned out to be a forgery provided to him by a disinformation.
He found it in an archive though, so it must be real.
Do you want to give us closing thoughts on the matter?
Yeah, this has been more eventful than a name of Bill Moore would prescribe to such events.
He really turned out to be the quintessential asshole of the UFO community.
Not only is he an asshole to everyone in a large conference, but then proceeds to throw
everybody else under the bus and then say, there's only enough room in this room for
me, the asshole, get out of here and then proceeds to leave the room.
Yeah, that's been a boiled steak infused frenzy that is the Bill Moore saga.
Thank you for this, Chelsea.
I had no idea I needed to know about this man and then I would immediately forget about
him.
I really think we all needed to know about it.
Yeah.
Because all of these, like every single episode focuses on major topics that have been shaped
and are still talked about within the conspiracy slash UFO community today without this context.
Exactly without any question to it at all.
It's really quite crazy and it's all ideas that are still out there today.
And this guy basically seems to have like quietly apologized and admitted everything
he's worked on has been bad or a fraud.
Not without telling us that we were wrong.
Yeah.
For doubting him.
Like heavily gaslighting us to make us feel bad about it.
It was interesting.
It was, this was a really fun one to do.
It provided a lot for us and I feel like in a couple episodes when we forget about them,
we'll still remember the stories that came from Bill Moore.
Not the name.
No, but not the name at all.
Well, thank you for this Chelsea and this finishes off September for us.
So we'll be moving into our Halloween stuff from here.
I can't wait.
Any final thoughts that you wanted to say about Bill Moore or has four episodes been
enough?
Four episodes has been enough, I feel like.
And thank you Bill Moore for providing us your point of view on it all.
It was such an easy script.
Yes.
It was really quite enlightening to hear it from your point of view.
Thank you for making us feel horribly about thinking about, well, I mean, it can only
go so far with what you're telling us to feel about it, Bill Moore, but you tried to make
us feel horrible about doubting you, but I don't.
Yes.
And with that, I have been Taylor here with Chelsea.
We are Journey to the Fringe.
Thank you all for listening and we'll see you next week.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to Journey to the Fringe.
If you have liked what you have listened to, please like, share, subscribe or follow,
depending on what venue you are listening to us through.
Also please, if possible, leave a five star review as that really helps us in the algorithms.
Should you wish to interact with us, please check us out on your social media of choice.
I bet you we are there.
And if you really want to communicate with us and give us ideas for new episodes or tell
us that we're wrong and terrible, either way, please send us an email at journeytothefringe.com.
For now, I'll see you in the next episode.