From the unexplained to the mundane, come join us on a journey to the fringe.
Hello and welcome to Journey to the Fringe, the cardamon on your podcast Spice Rack.
We are your spicy host, Taylor and Chelsea.
And today we are following up.
I've decided if we're just talking about him in general, I want to call him Billy just
to give him a bit more character.
The articles I read on him are William, but I like Billy.
And today we are following up on our Billy Moore stuff.
Chelsea has a little bit of the biography to get into and then we'll see how it goes
from there.
So Chelsea, without further ado, why don't you take over?
Okay, I will.
I just have a quick question before we get into it.
Cardamon.
Yeah, it's one of those things that people kind of vaguely know, but most people couldn't
tell you what it is or the specific taste of cardamon, but it's there.
Yeah, something that we're all vaguely aware of.
That does say journey to the fringe.
Okay, okay.
Also, we know nothing about cardamon.
Sorry, we are not a cardamon.
Okay, let's just move on.
Okay, welcome back to round two of another asshole.
Last week, if you remember, and I think Taylor's giving his personality a little bit too much
possess by calling him Billy, I think William is about the amount of vanilla he's coming
off as to me.
Vanilla might be too spicy for this guy.
It might be too spicy.
There's a lot of flavor in vanilla.
Just like ice cube.
Hence why he's so forgettable, but I do like Billy.
It has a rank to it, but I feel like it's too spicy for this guy.
Like you said.
Last week, we talked about a couple of well-known books that Moore did on some stuff, and this
guy's kind of coming along and developing to us in a weird way.
We're not doing it the usual way that we do assholes.
We're kind of breaking it down into impacts he's had on the UFO community in our episodes.
Lesson being, while we can't remember Bill Moore generally as a person, we do remember
his books that have shaped the UFO community.
And it's idea that we can recognize to this day being Area 50, no, the Roswell Crash.
And what's the other one?
Philadelphia Experiment.
The Philadelphia Experiment.
So these are still ideas that are shaped by Bill Moore.
Where we left off was with Bill Moore being contacted by a mysterious telephone person
who refers to himself as Vulcan.
You know what?
I'm just going to give you the quote again.
You don't have to go back to the other episode right to the very last two minutes.
This isn't the quote.
This is just me talking.
Moore is out one day promoting the Roswell book when here's the quote.
I got a phone call after appearing on a radio show from a man who said, quote, within a
quote, you're the only person we've heard talk about this subject who seems to know
what he's talking about.
End quote, within a quote.
We're still in the quote, though.
It convinced me that he was a government intelligence agent and wanted to begin disseminating
some information about UFOs to the public.
End quote.
In exchange for providing the researcher with new information, Moore was to observe specific
individuals within the UFO field.
Now I have to ask, after the books Moore had written that are highly, highly criticized
for being mostly made up, fabricated, poor research, whatever, as we went over in the
last episode.
And one sided, yes.
Yeah.
What do you think about this Vulcan person saying Moore is the only person that seems
to know what they're talking about?
It seems to me somebody who wants to spread something particular out.
Yeah.
I went back and forth on it.
I think there's a couple of things.
Yeah.
And this came up when I was doing research for my episode that'll be coming up.
It seems like he is getting fed information from somewhere that wants bad information
to come out.
I'll leave it at that until I get to my end.
Yeah.
It's a major kind of theme that's coming up that we'll see.
I think there's a couple of things that could be at play here and it very well could be
all of these things coinciding together.
Number one, Moore is feeding his ego because this is a quote from Moore about what's going
on.
Number two, Vulcan is leaning into the fact that they're recruiting him to be a disinformation
agent and using flattery and they're going after the author of very popular books at
the time who have a huge following.
Yeah.
That's the other part of it.
The thing is it could just simply be the fame is what this guy's looking for.
Not necessarily somebody who is good at critically analyzing information, but they can get it
out there to a wider audience.
Get it out there.
Yeah.
And number three, Vulcan is a fucking idiot.
So it could be one, it could be all of those.
It could be more things.
Moore, it could be Doty.
Yeah.
It's Richard Doty.
And in which case we're back to point number three.
You know what?
I can't say that Doty is an idiot.
Actually I do.
He's an idiot.
Yeah.
But I mean he's done a good job at what he's been trying to do.
Whatever it is he's trying to do.
Anyhow, Moore eagerly accepts.
He's like, yeah, I'm fucking doing this.
I am pretty great.
Yeah.
I am pretty good.
Bill Moore, quote, probably at some point.
Now let's see what Shenadigun's Moore gets up to in this episode and who is going to be
the first ufologist on their hit list that they wanted to target, as I said in the quote.
Why Paul Benowitz, of course.
Now, that was my intro.
Let's find out just what I'm talking about.
Of course we've covered Paul Benowitz indirectly at this point in the form of Richard Doty.
And while Moore did come up very briefly in the story of Paul Benowitz in Richard Doty's
episode, I seem to have underestimated the role that he had played in the whole affair,
not only just because, but also because it was not an episode on Paul Benowitz or Bill
Moore.
The focus was on Richard Doty as it was a Richard Doty episode.
So I feel like we told the Paul Benowitz story in the form of Richard Doty and now we're
doing it in the form of Bill Moore.
And I feel like poor Paul Benowitz hasn't been represented fairly, but that's just an
observation at this point.
We may never do anything about that.
We may never.
We may.
We may get to.
And we've covered the story a lot now.
Yeah.
We're going to have another episode containing Paul Benowitz, but from another perspective
on Bill Moore's role, it's all very artistic.
It's the most artistic way we could do this.
So to make a very, very long story short, the late Paul Benowitz was an investigator with
the Aerial Nominal Research Organization, or APRO in Tucson, Arizona.
He was a successful businessman and UFO sympathizer.
Benowitz was also of the belief that there was a serious plot involving an extensive
network of underground UFO bases connected to an alien colonization and control scheme
to gain mastery over the human race.
Benowitz also claimed to have uncovered evidence of aliens controlling people using electronic
devices and furthermore claimed UFOs were frequently observed near Kirtland Air Force
Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico, which was connected to secret tunnels in the mountains
of nearby Monsanto Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility and Coyote Test Range.
How did Benowitz come to suspect all of this?
He was convinced he was intercepting electronic communications originating from a secret underground
UFO facility located outside of the town of Dulce, New Mexico.
Unable to contain himself, Benowitz proceeded to sound the alert openly, much to the dismay
of officials at APRO.
There was also a reason for everything that I mentioned above that Benowitz adamantly
believed in.
There were people actively feeding him disinformation and straight up just fucking with the guy.
Some from the government and others were, I don't know, like colleagues I guess you
could call them?
And elaborately too.
Elaborately, yes.
Yeah, I think you could call them colleagues.
The government in the forms of mostly Richard Doty, who was confirming the information that
Benowitz had and eventually Benowitz goes off the deep end and was institutionalized.
So there's a lot to this story and how it all came to that.
We go over it in a little bit more detail in the Richard Doty episode.
I'm just going to jump off from here.
That's about all you need to understand what's going on.
I'll describe a little bit more as we go, but highly recommend the Richard Doty episode
so that you can get more information on Paul Benowitz and just how he came to believe in
all of that.
It wasn't just, you know, some crazy person making this up.
Let's check out what Bill Moore has to do with this.
So where does he come into play in this story?
You may ask, pretend you ask, just in case you didn't.
But that's what this episode is about.
So I'm pretty sure you did ask.
Chelsea, where does Bill Moore come up in all of this?
Okay, let's talk about it.
Because you did ask.
Good.
Well, after his move to Arizona, that's Bill Moore, his existing connections with the
UFO community resulted in him being invited to be a member of the board of directors at
ARPO.
This just so happened to have such perfectly precise timing to cross paths with the Paul
Benowitz episode already in progress.
And they, who is apro, labeled the bizarre claims of Benowitz as delusional and paranoid,
apparently, according to Bill Moore, I'm not actually sure how credible that statement
is, but this is Bill Moore saying that he was already labeled that.
However, unknown to Benowitz, Moore and his new friends, which would be Richard Dodie and
friends outside of the UFO community, plotted to not only discredit Benowitz, but psychologically
destroy him.
On December 29th and 30th of 1981, Bill Moore would meet with an unknown person to him at
that time.
It was the first time and the meeting was arranged by the anonymous caller, as mentioned,
ending our previous episode and starting this episode.
Moore contends that the anonymous caller was a person who they referred to affectionately
as Falcon and the middleman who was Sparrow, it was meeting with at this place was Sergeant
Richard C. Dodie.
So their meeting and Richard Dodie was then stationed at Kirtland Air Force Base, which
we just mentioned, Paul Benowitz, you know, having a play in this whole affair.
Yes, we're pretty sure Falcon and Sparrow are the same person in retrospect.
And on that point, I wonder what restaurant they met at.
Like I feel like it's Denny's.
I get Denny's vibes from them.
I don't know, Denny's just seems like it might have too much flair.
Do you think?
Yeah.
And it's the 80s too, so there's not a lot of chains at this time.
Okay, okay, good point.
Anyhow, a couple of topics were discussed during this meeting of the minds, one of which
will be covered in the next episode.
But what we're truly interested...
Sorry, I need to get back to this point.
It's a restaurant that probably serves boiled steaks.
Like I feel like that's the kind of food a Bill Moore eats.
I think you're right.
What we're truly interested in right now is that this is precisely where the time, the
place that Moore agrees to work with the government as a disinformation agent.
Shortly thereafter, Moore claimed it became apparent that he was supplying information
to the government through Doty on the activities of Paul Benowitz.
I'm not sure why it took him so long to realize this when he agreed to it, but...
Oil steak.
It was just so good.
It was like a Bill Moore steak with the...
No, agreeable.
It was so good.
This thing first, the two agreed to finish the discrediting of Paul Benowitz.
This is where he was targeted, while with Moore being involved.
He was already targeted.
At this point, what's Bill Moore getting out of this?
You know what?
We'll get into it a little bit, but in my opinion, I have no fucking idea what he got
out of it.
We'll talk about it, and I think he kind of has a feeling of what he's getting out of
it, but in my opinion, he's not getting anything.
Not one thing.
Okay.
Great question.
And I kind of have an idea what will come out of it, but we'll talk about that in my
episode when we get there.
And do you think you got anything out of it?
Yes.
Further boiled steaks.
Yes.
A lifetime supply.
That's actually no, he would never.
Finishing discrediting of Paul Benowitz.
I think I already said that, but it's important.
The prime objective of the counterintelligence people who swarmed around Benowitz between
1980 and 1984 seemed to be the maintenance of high level security net around the radio
signals.
He was intercepting.
If you remember me talking about that, he believed he was intercepting alien signals
from an underground base.
First things first, the two agreed to finish the discrediting of Paul Benowitz.
I think I already said that, but it's important.
So quote from Bill Moore, the prime objective of the counterintelligence people who swarmed
around Benowitz between 1980 and 1984 seemed to be the maintenance of a high level security
net around the radio signals he was intercepting.
I was unable to determine why this was a priority at the time and I still do not know today.
What I do know, however, is that since they couldn't physically stop Paul from intercepting
these signals and since they hadn't been successful in enlisting his voluntary silence, they fell
back on a wall of disinformation as the best way to confuse the issue and ultimately to
call his credibility into question.
End quote.
It would appear that this whistleblower was becoming more dangerous to himself and hardly
needed to be pushed over the edge.
That's Benowitz.
Still, that is precisely what Moore, Doty, and Friends did.
Moore started to feed him pure misinformation on the subject with the full intent that he
would repeat this thes that they're feeding him publicly.
Now it's interesting that they say that because, well, interesting in the fact that I think
Bill Moore would have had more polls than Benowitz would have at that time because he
had those books.
Yeah, Roswell had just come out in 1980, so he was a big deal at least within the community.
Hence probably why they picked him to spread it to Benowitz.
But I guess Benowitz was just getting involved in things he shouldn't have, I guess.
Next, they started playing mind games with the victim, Benowitz.
For example, Moore personally described how they would go to Benowitz's home on occasions
and slowly move the furniture around.
I'm assuming that that was breaking and entering, not just brazenly in front of his
face when they went over for tea or whatever.
Unless they got Benowitz's wife involved, in which case she was letting them in and
doing that.
But yeah, I'm assuming it's breaking and entering.
Yeah.
In which case he has a lot more to kind of explain.
Answer for, yeah.
But he doesn't really at all.
It was just a joke, guys.
Yeah, he doesn't address that.
Moore explains, when one's concept of their immediate environment begins to change, we
start to lose touch with reality.
Sadly, it all had a most negative impact on both the physical and psychological health
of Benowitz.
During that time, he was committed three times to a mental health facility and treated for
severe delusional paranoia.
It really sounds like he's taking no responsibility for anything going on with Benowitz.
You're already picking up on that?
It gets better.
It gets way better.
Yeah, we're starting to see the emergence of that.
Yeah, we're just playing jokes on him and it clearly detached him from reality and sent
him to the mental health hospital.
He really takes a step back from the complete destruction they get on this guy psychologically.
Yeah, that's exactly kind of, oh well, you're going to like this one in Moore's words, as
I will provide more information on next, like on the next episode.
He maintains that quote, you're going to like this one.
My role in the affair was largely that of a freelancer providing information on Paul's
current thinking and activities.
I had nothing whatsoever to do with the counterintelligence and the disinformation, although I either
knew or was aware of a number of people directly involved with that end of things.
Richard Doty was one of these people, although I came to know Doty well enough to gain the
impression that he was faithfully carrying out orders, which he personally found distasteful.
So it's not my fault.
I didn't have any part of this plan that they had.
They just shaped it around the information I gathered about this guy to get his most
vulnerable issues.
Yeah.
It's what I gathered from that.
And he's kind of playing it off as he didn't have the hand in it that he actually did.
Yeah, they wouldn't have been as effective if they don't have somebody right next to
him saying like, oh yeah, and he told me like he fears spiders.
So they said, okay, we're just going to fill his house with spiders then.
Yeah.
And this is coming right after I said that he was literally breaking into his home and
like moving furniture around, but he's like, I was just providing information.
Placing the spiders.
Yeah.
And he also directly conflict that information.
Like I just said, that he did actually know what he was doing in the very same statement
might I add.
So more in his own words regarding the Benowitz affair spends a considerable amount of time,
if not all of it, essentially alluding that Benowitz was asking for it because quote,
he seemed to have an implicit and abiding faith and quote in Benowitz's story quote,
blossomed into a tale which rivaled the wildest science fiction scenario anyone could possibly
imagine and quote another quote.
Basically it seemed to me that Paul was his own worst enemy.
Instead of withholding judgment until all the facts were in Paul insisted on repeatedly
going off half cock to virtually anyone who would listen and quote, he spends a great
deal of time breaking down everything Paul did wrong and minimizing the role that everyone
was playing to actively feed him this information to ensure that he believed it and went public
with it.
That's all concerning enough.
Then he says Richard Doty found what he was doing to be distasteful.
Now, Bill Moore, we are not fools.
We know about Richard Doty.
He did not find that distasteful.
This just based on that last little bit, it's a little bit behind the scenes, but it's
almost victim blaming.
Like he's saying this guy kind of deserves it from his crazy outlandish ideas.
Like what do you expect to happen when you have crazy ideas like this?
Look how short the skirt is he's wearing.
He's not even saying that.
He's saying he wasn't good at researching.
Like what can we do if he wasn't good at what he did?
He deserved it.
He was just asking for it.
And the fact that Bill Moore's the guy saying look how bad you are at researching is kind
of funny too in a dark way.
I know it goes on, it goes on.
Because Benowitz was asking for it, he further goes on to justify the means to an end.
Quote, you ready for more quotes?
These are all coming directly from him and you're going to find out where he said all
of this quote.
Whatever it was Benowitz was involved with, he was the subject of considerable interest
on the part of not one, but several government agencies and that they were actively trying
to diffuse him by pumping as much disinformation through him as he could possibly absorb.
Being a very small part of that process gave me, I thought, something of an advantage.
It became my intention to play that advantage for all the information I could get.
That's right Moore of course was not being played.
He was going to secretly work behind the scenes to find out just what the government was up
to and who was more qualified to do that than Moore.
From Richard Doty.
Yeah, the most witty and cunning of all the ufologists.
If anyone can do it, surely it's Moore.
He continues.
Quote, the problem was always one of keeping a level head and trying to carefully sort
the crap from the candy.
Something which Paul didn't seem to need to be very good at.
End quote.
Yeah, that fucking Paul, he'll just believe anything the government tells him.
What an idiot.
It's almost like he didn't know he was being completely plotted against and fed government
documents.
Like he's completely not taking into account the fact that he has a bird's eye view of
what's happening.
He is not of the mind.
Have you ever heard what's it called?
It's like the state of consciousness, what they look like with children.
Like when they're three years old and they'll like show them a picture of somebody hiding
candy in a room and then they'll wonder why when somebody goes into the room they don't
look immediately where the candy is hidden.
And it's because they don't understand that different people have different information.
It's not all people have the exact same information.
This is what it reminds me of.
Oh my God, that's a good point.
And Chelsea, I just need to ask you at this point, because this guy seems to lack a certain
understanding of things.
Please say this quote's not coming from his eulogy at Benowitz's funeral.
I just need to make sure this guy's not that.
This understanding of his mother's shuffle pop.
No, and we're going to find out next episode where all of this comes.
I'm sorry to hold it over to tell you where this information is coming from, but you'll
know next episode where it's coming from.
When I started reading this, I was like, surely he cannot be this stupid to be like,
I'm the hero in this story.
And Richard Dodie was doing the Lord's work.
It's basically saying like, no matter what, this guy was going to get what's coming to
him.
So I can get some information out of it that I would find super useful about the government.
So I might as well just do this minimal part to make this guy's life a living hell.
Basically what he's thinking is they say, and I think it comes up and I'm going to ruin
it for when it comes up in this, but even in the Richard Dodie episode, they say with
every chunk of BS they threw at the wall, there is a little bit of truth.
That's what Bill Moore is going after, that little bit of truth.
And he thinks that he's going to be able to out-con the people who are feeding all this
BS.
Like he's there to find out that little bit of truth.
So that's why he's saying, well, Paul couldn't do it.
So I'm going to do it because I am far superior to Paul Benowitz and he deserved it.
And Richard Dodie even said that to me.
So I believe it to be true.
That is one of the pieces of true information being fed to me.
That could be very well why he did it too.
Now we're finding out more things that he's like the Messiah that's going to come in and
find the answers of what the government really knows about the government, the real answers,
the why.
And he was willing to do whatever it took to get there.
He goes on to say, quote, one of the key factors in any successful disinformation scheme is
that it must contain some element of truth in order to be credible.
Here it is.
It was literally my next sentence.
Knowing that, however, is one thing.
Doing something with it is quite another.
When you're dealing with what you know to be a classified program and you're determined
to get information without breaking any laws and running a fowl of national security, you're
walking a very fine line.
That's why it took so long to come up with any results.
What results he's speaking of.
I have not one fucking idea because I don't believe he had any results except becoming
the renowned ufologist in bed with the government feeding disinformation to his peers.
He'd hated in fact, he never published another thing.
He never came out with anything else ever.
So for him to be taking this stance on it as if he was successful is like a stretch.
It's a fairy tale.
Yeah, I'm sure he did fairly well on the speaking engagements tour with the ufology
conventions, but I can only imagine pretending as if I don't know what's going to happen
next.
Next quote because they're coming up so good.
These are good quotes.
Oh, there I was with my foot literally in the door of a secret counterintelligence game
that gave every appearance of being somehow directly connected to a high level government
U of O project and judging by the positions of the people I need to be directly involved
with it, definitely had something to do with national security.
There is no way I was going to allow the opportunity to pass me by without learning at least something
about what was going on.
Many ufologists have run up against disinformation over the years.
Virtually all of them viewed it as a negative process and backed away from it either in
anger or disgust as soon as they discovered what they were dealing with.
Even today, the UFO community unanimously considers anyone known or suspected of dealing in disinformation
as one of the bad guys to be shamed, to be shunned or avoided at all costs, and certainly
never ever to be believed.
I determined to take quite a different tack.
I would play the disinformation game, get my hands dirty just often enough to lead those
directing the process into believing I was doing exactly what they wanted me to do and
all the while continuing to burrow my way into the matrix so as to learn as much possible
about who was directing it and why.
It would be a classic case of turning the tables on the very ones who were the most
confident they had the situation well in hand.
There was just one thing I needed to do this.
Secrecy!
I couldn't tell anyone about what I was doing for if I didn't, we got back to those in
control, I would be immediately cut off and cast a drift before I could learn anything.
It was a formidable problem.
So there we have it.
He was actually on our side the whole time.
Marter than the government itself.
Yeah.
And that he would be able to get...
God.
Okay.
The government saw right past that.
They thought he was the guy to do this, but he was working against them.
This seems like some idiot that we can trick.
Yep.
They know who they were dealing with.
They trick him not.
They did not know.
They did not know that he was to turn the tables and come up with nothing.
And he... just another part of disinformation.
The fool.
I wonder what happens to him in the end.
He must have not been a hated person providing that disinformation.
I can't see how it turns out this way.
He got all his ducks in a row and they are just walking straight towards the creek.
Yeah.
Remember that time Bill Moore wrote that book that everyone knows now and is famous that
he found all that stuff the government was doing?
The real stuff?
Yeah.
Exit that fool Richard Doty thinking he couldn't discern it.
It's famous.
You know it.
Okay.
So he goes on to say, my role in the Benowitz affair had at least secured me a seat in the
right theater.
And there it was only a question of whether I could use my balcony ticket to discover
who owned the place and was making the major operational decisions.
You can't figure out who owns places from the balcony.
Yeah.
That's a terrible metaphor.
Questionable ethics I would think.
However this guy is thinking that.
That's questionable as his metaphors.
Doty is a stand up guy.
Okay.
So last but not least on the Benowitz affair, I'm going to leave you with yet another direct
quote from Moore on the subject and we will get to closing thoughts on the matter and
then one more thing, which is one more thing.
I really like this because basically everything I pulled on the Benowitz affair is right
from Bill Moore's fucking mouth.
There's no fear saying that.
I just can't believe he doesn't realize how this comes across.
It's tone deaf, isn't it?
It's completely tone deaf and you're going to love where it came from.
So here's the last quote on the Benowitz case.
Moreover, as I have already stated, I was personally aware of the intelligence community's
concerted efforts to systematically confuse, discourage and discredit Paul by providing
him with a large body of disinformation on the subject of UFOs.
The malevolent aliens who allegedly pilot them, the technology they employ and the underground
bases they supposedly possess and occupy.
Okay, so he's admitting it.
The entire story of a secret treaty between the US government and the aliens, of exchanges
of technology between us and the aliens, of battles between aliens and American armed
forces and of aliens allegedly having implanted hundreds of thousands, even millions of human
beings for the purposes of taking over the world and using us as cattle or slaves, came
as a result of this process.
I know because I was in a position to observe much of this process as it unfolded and I
was providing regular reports on its effectiveness to some of the very people who were quote
doing it to Paul and I can tell you that it was effective because I watched Paul become
systematically more paranoid and more emotionally unstable as he tried to assimilate what was
happening to him.
He had guns and knives all over his house, had installed extra locks on his door and
he swore that they, meaning the aliens, were coming through his walls at night and injecting
him with hideous chemicals which would knock him out for long periods of time.
He told me he had no idea what they were doing with him while he was knocked out.
He began to suffer increasing bouts of insomnia.
Others took over the day to day operation of his business as he went through this.
One day I watched him eat not one bite of his lunch while he chained smoke 28 cigarettes
and 45 minutes to use his drinks.
I knew at the time that he was not far from the inevitable nervous collapse.
His health had deteriorated, he had lost considerable weight, his hands shook as if from palsy and
he looked terrible.
I do know from firsthand experience that there was a tremendous amount of government disinformation
involved in that a large portion of what we are hearing today about malevolent aliens,
underground bases and secret treaties with the US government posits roots firmly planted
in the Benowitz affair.
From what I knew of all of this, its purpose was strictly to discredit Benowitz, nothing
more.
What amazes me is that nearly a decade later these same stories continue to circulate.
It's a little hard to take in isn't it?
It's the most told death thing I've ever heard.
I know you're hearing this guy describe a man's inevitable breakdown to suicide.
And he just watched it.
But look at all this good stuff that's happening.
You don't even hear him say like I felt terrible about what happened to Paul.
But there's not even that.
But I chose not to.
He does go on to say that he was not under any sort of agreement with the government
that did not allow him to divulge this information.
Oh yeah, so he voluntarily drove this guy to suicide.
That's great to know.
Yeah, and standing by and watching it happen is just as bad even if he did not do anything,
which he did but doesn't seem to want to readily admit, he kind of passively admits
it.
One last thing I want to quickly touch on on this episode is one other quick disinformation
scandal more was a part of another on a long list, which is the Aztec crash, which is a
rumored UFO crash in Aztec, New Mexico in 1948, which is labeled the other Roswell.
It was exposed as a hoax by two con men Silas and Leo as a part of a scheme to sell alien
technology.
Moore researched this case in 1985 and confirmed that it was a hoax where his findings appeared
in Mufon symposium proceedings, quote, crashed UFOs evidence in the search for proof and
quote.
Anyway, this is what Moore had to say about this whole fiasco, I guess.
Moore and Dodie were having tea one day or like maybe eating at their milk steak or whatever
or something and Dodie was probably like working on like anything we can fuck with.
And Moore was like, well, I've been working on this Aztec UFO rumor and Dodie's like,
hmm, you don't say tell me everything.
And months later, Moore finds out that Dodie and a team are running a new disinformation
campaign on another ufologist who had ties to Benowitz and who had a film company interested
in doing a UFO documentary.
It appears as if the Benowitz story might have became a part of the script, therefore
extending the disinformation to this person to put an end to that.
Part of this game involved a meeting between the UFO researcher in question and Dodie and
others of the AFOC office in Kirtland Air Force Base, wherein the researchers subsequently
claimed to have been allowed to view certain reportedly sensitive documentation about the
government's real involvement with UFOs included in this material was information about an
alleged UFO crash retrieval in Aztec.
And I really like this expert Richard Dodie, who is this is Bill Moore talking, by the
way, bound by a security oath cannot and I am told will not discuss this matter except
to say that he broke no laws and gave away no secrets that day that in so far as I am
aware is entirely correct.
I on the other hand was never required to sign a security oath and I'm therefore breaking
no laws when I tell you that the information which changed hands that day was directly
descended from the discussion Dodie and I had on the very topic a few months earlier.
I can also tell you that this is a very effective deception because the researcher involved
continued to believe this information and actively continues to try to convince others
of its truth even now more than six years after the fact.
Moore contends that to the best of his knowledge, it was all disinformation and I was the one
who an unwittingly supplied the fuel to those who are spreading the fire.
I'm surprised he said unwittingly because he seems to be taking a little bit of an
aback there.
He does kind of the whole time though, no.
No but before he's like no I'm playing them but unwittingly implies that you don't understand
what's happened.
You don't just talk to Richard Dodie and give him information for no reason just for the
pure joy of talking to Richard Dodie.
That's all I want to cover.
I just wanted to say like here's another thing he was involved in.
One final comment on the Aztec hoax is that two other researchers who self published a
voluminous book UFO crash at Aztec on the affair in 1987 chose to completely omit any
mention of this is Bill Moore talking again.
Geez I really have to figure out these quotes.
They're very confusing especially for the reader.
So the authors chose to completely omit any mention of my extensive and definitive research
on the case which had been published two years earlier and which both researchers had copies
of.
It's a classic case.
Who would have thought that people would forego Bill Moore research?
Oh no he is so great at it like nobody would ever.
It's a classic case of the book's principal author Steinman having decided that what his
conclusion would be even before beginning the process of investigation and then totally
ignoring everything which didn't fit.
One of the problems the ufology movement has with its image is that there's a significant
number of people involved with it who support this sort of half assed journalism.
None like his other two best sellers no and that's where I'm gonna leave it.
The only thing I believe about this man now outside of that he enjoys a steak boiled is
that there are no mirrors in his house because there's just no self reflection.
None at all and it's pretty much like everything that he ever did is like I don't even know
how to explain it.
I don't think he knows either.
It's based on like immediate thoughts.
That's it.
The best thing way I could put this together is just Bill Moore speaking for himself.
I felt like I couldn't even put this into my own words to explain the amount.
Without making him look worse or better man.
Yeah I mean that's exactly how he put his other two books together and he's just like
only the worst researchers would put it together like this.
What are they half ass get lazy at?
Who just looked up the.
Bill Moore in the best researcher says Richard Doty.
Nobody.
If I half ass my book then that would mean that all of my critical thinking processes
are in question but that can't be because Doty told me they are not and that I could
probably play the government.
There's no way I'm bad because the government came to me to be the disinformation agent.
I was pretty mind blown by the time I got to the end of this research but that's all
I have for you today on Bill Moore.
I hope it was satisfying.
Do you have any last words?
No I think Bill Moore put it best.
He did put it best.
I'm quite satisfied with the fact that majority of that episode came directly from Bill Moore.
Yeah and unfortunately not much of the next episode will come from Bill Moore but don't
worry he will be there in all of his blandness.
I guess for now I have been Taylor here with Chelsea.
We are Dream to the Fringe.
Thank you all for listening and we'll see you next week.
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