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From the unexplained to the mundane, come join us on a journey to the fringe.

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Hello and welcome to Journey to the Fringe, where affairs of the blackest and tiest variety

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are both discussed and discerned to you, the listener.

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We are your podcast hosts, with Pinkies classily, yes defiantly, in the air.

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I'm Taylor and Chelsea.

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And today we talk about a group that has had many a conspiracy about it, but today we're

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going to talk about a real conspiracy, one that is verifiably something that needs to

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be answered and likely has an answer, but it hasn't been spelled out outright yet.

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And that group is the United Nations.

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I thought it was going to be a cult.

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Yeah, it could have been.

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But for now it's going to be the United Nations, which may or may not be a cult.

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I don't think people have killed themselves in the name of per se, but you know.

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Let's see what you got.

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So Chelsea, when I say there are conspiracies about the United Nations, what comes to mind

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for you?

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I can't really think of anything at the top of my head.

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Maybe they're favoring certain countries.

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I mean, it's politics, right?

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Yeah, more or less.

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In the end.

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So you got to believe there's some stuff going on there.

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I've been listening to too much knowledge fight, which is a podcast about Alex Jones

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and how he's kind of full of shit.

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It's a great show.

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When you see that side of things, they really talk about how they're just the new world

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order.

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They're part of the economic forum and just pushing the head affairs to bring about a

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changing of the guard to the powers that they want to control.

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Those are the conspiracies I hear.

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That is a fantastical way of looking at it.

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I'm going to show you the very real UN, the conspiracies about it.

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And why it kind of comes out this way.

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And how we're going to look at it.

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We're going to look at the history, not just of the UN, but how the UN comes out, starting

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with a history from the League of Nations onwards.

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And then we're going to actually talk about the story that I have here.

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Okay.

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Okay, that sounds good.

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Now, I don't know how much of this history you remember.

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I'm going to give a brief overview when there's a story that might need to be told.

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But outside of that, we're kind of just trying to stick straight to the story.

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Okay.

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Where would I remember it from?

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Like grade 11, grade 12.

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No, nothing.

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Okay.

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Well, then you are in for a totally new ride.

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Okay.

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What's the word?

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You've probably never heard before.

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So strap yourselves in and we're going to get to this.

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And of course, every talk of the United Nations starts with the League of Nations.

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We'll get to kind of why.

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And this, I found a BBC article that kind of outlines the League of Nations and its

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history very well.

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So I'm going to follow up for the most part here.

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The League of Nations, born of the destruction and disillusionment arising from World War

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I, was the most ambitious attempt that had ever been made to construct the peaceful global

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order.

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It was rooted in a comprehensive liberal critique of the pre-war international system, which

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was widely believed to have been the cause of the carnage of World War I.

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The story of World War I, a bunch of cousins got pissed at each other and then moved to

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the side.

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They had their family feud.

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The idea of the League of Nations was to eliminate four flaws of the old European

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states. It was in place of monarchical family stats, a world of independent nation states

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was emerging and should free of outside interference.

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The secret diplomacy of the old order would be replaced by the open discussion and resolution

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of disputes.

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It was the first two.

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Third, the military alliance blocks would be replaced by a system of collective guarantees

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of security.

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And four, agreed disarmament would prevent the recurrence of the kinds of arms races

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that had racked up international tensions in the pre-war decade.

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Now there was something that kind of predate the League of Nations and it's called the

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Congress system.

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It was in Europe kind of exclusively and it was just basically the great powers of Europe

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held occasional summits where they would chat and discuss issues they found urgent.

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Didn't really do much though.

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And obviously it led to World War II, World War I, sorry spoiler alert, there's a World

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War II.

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Wait, what?

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Sorry, we'll get to that.

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So the surviving Victoria's great powers from the end of the great war, mostly Britain and

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France, because you know, Germany kind of didn't survive well from World War II.

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World War I, gee, sorry.

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We're so used to talking about World War II, just look at the time.

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I'm following it though.

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Surprisingly.

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They would have preferred to go no further than regularizing the old Congress system.

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But the reason this old Congress system doesn't end up holding up is because Woodrow Wilson,

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who was president of the US at the time, is coming on the stage as another power themselves

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and he says we need a new system.

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He had different ideas and pushed towards the creation of a more comprehensive global

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organization which would include all independent states and in which even the smallest state

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would have an importance.

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However, hilariously, Wilson is thinking about the way that self-determination would work

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in the real world and would end up getting his idea for a community of power off the

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ground or made really good.

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Partly, this was to avoid alarming US isolationist opinions, which are those huge US isolationist

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movements at the time, but in any case, when the League Covenant was agreed to at the Paris

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Peace Conference in 1919, the US Senate refused to sign it so the US actually never gets involved

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with the League of Nations because the Senate never ratifies their involvement.

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That sounds about right actually.

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Just stats, one party doesn't like the other so they say no fuck you, you can't do what

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you like.

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Just cuz.

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And this is clear in the article.

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How the League would have worked with American participation remains one of the greatest

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what-ifs of modern history.

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Mostly because you know this leads to World War II, but what would happen if the US was

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actually involved?

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As it was, the direction of the system was left in the hands of states, primarily Britain

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and France, whose altruism was questionable and whose economic resources had been crippled.

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Yet the League of Nations did work surprisingly well for a decade after the war.

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By December 1940, 48 states had signed the League Covenant, pledging to work together

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to eliminate aggression between countries.

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A series of disputes between Germany and Poland over Upper Silesia, who knows.

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I've never heard of that country.

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Between Italy and Greece, and between Greece and Bulgaria, were resolved under its auspices.

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And these were the kind of conflicts that triggered World War I.

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So good on them.

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The proliferation of League activity however carried brisks.

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As one of its founders, Lloyd George put it, it had weak links, spreading everywhere,

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no grip, any grip.

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Grip ultimately meant the capacity to use force.

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When the crucial concept of collective security was put in the acid test in 1930s, it dissolved.

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Once big power started to challenge the status quo as Japan didn't mature yet, the League

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found it practically impossible to reach a clear verdict on who was guilty of aggression.

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And we covered that, the Manchurian Japan issue in our Japanese War Crimes episodes.

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If you want to hear about that, go back there.

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Kind of a hilarious story about a fake train incident.

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Oh, the incidents.

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There were many incidents in Japan.

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There's so many.

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Or still, more disastrally, in the case of Italy, pressuring Abyssinia, Abyssinia would

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be pre-Ethiopia.

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That's his name before it became Ethiopia.

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It was putting pressure on Abyssinia.

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The guilt was clear enough, but the key powers, Britain and France, were unwilling to antagonize

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the guilty party because of their wider strategic views.

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Italy was the guilty party.

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They were invaded in Abyssinia to make it their fallen.

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A failed attempt to impose an oil embargo on Italy demonstrated that any credible system

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by economic sanctions was far distant, between the humiliation of seeing one of its members,

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Austria, taken over by Germany in 1938 without even a formal protest, and the absurdity of

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expelling the USSR after the outbreak of World War II in 1939, an event that neither the

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USSR nor the League was involved, and after this, the League pretty much ceased while

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World War II happens.

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It's just a mess leading up to World War II.

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Germany leaves it before the USSR is kicked out because Germany says they want an army,

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and of course, the World War I agreement to end it says they can't really have a really

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formal war with me.

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Well, Germany says, screw you, we're going to do it anyways, and they just don't regret

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the moment.

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And then the USSR gets kicked out for invading them.

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That vote, there were 15 votes, 7 in favor of kicking them out and 8 in favor of keeping

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them, and to even get to 7, they had to randomly add new countries to the vote to get to 7,

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and they still kicked them out.

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Yeah, it was super messed up.

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So anyways, World War II that happens, we've covered World War II enough around it, we're

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going to cover the rest.

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As World War II was about to end in 1945, nations were in ruins and the world wanted

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peace.

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Representatives of 50 countries gathered at the United Nations Conference on International

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Organization in San Francisco, California from April 25th to June 26th, 1945.

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For the next two months, they proceeded to draft and then sign the UN Charter, which

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created a new international organization, the United Nations, which it was hoped would

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prevent another war like they had just lived through.

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Four months after the San Francisco Conference that I just talked about, the United Nations

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officially began on October 24th, 1945, when it came into existence after its charter had

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been ratified by China, France, Soviet Union, United Kingdom, and the U.S., which are the

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five major powers in the U.S.

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As of April 20th, 1946, the League of Nations ceased to exist and handed over all of its

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assets to the UN, having granted the new UN Secretary full control of its library.

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So that's the history of the League of Nations and how it just kind of naturally flows into

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the UN.

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The key difference between the UN and the League of Nations is it was all just kind of a weird

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agreement between these parties in the League of Nations, whereas in the UN, they have different

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departments, but most importantly, they have five parties who can just veto it, and they're

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basically considered the most powerful countries.

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So if they don't like something, they can just say, no, we're not going to do this, no

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matter what it is.

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And they couldn't do that under the League of Nations?

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They could not, and that's how it kind of led to the underlining.

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So is that just like incentive for them not to just leave?

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To have power over them?

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What do you mean in the League of Nations situation?

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Like in the United Nations, like how come they can just like veto things?

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They can just veto things because they have more power in theory than the rest of the

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countries.

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But you know, it's been going on a long time, so it's hard to say if that's still the truth

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or not.

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In any event, all countries are involved in the UN, and they've stayed there for a long

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time, so it's a little different from that.

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Okay.

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And totally not anything to do with the story you're telling, I'm just curious.

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So the structure of the UN was to give much stronger positions to the traditional great

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powers through the UN Security Council.

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The most significant thing about its creation perhaps is that this time the US did not back

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away.

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A significant number of the old League's aims and methods were transmitted into the

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UN.

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And among these were not only such low-key but effective institutions of the international

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courts and the international labor organizations, but also the working assumptions of the secretariat

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and some key operations, including those that would soon come to be called the peacekeeping

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operations.

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The UN may have almost stumbled sideways into its peacekeeping role, but the motive and

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sustaining force in the process was the survival and strengthening of its expectations of international

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involvement in the preservation of global security.

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Gradually, this came to include the defense of human rights as well as the resolution

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of territorial conflicts.

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The UN's first attempt to resolve a serious conflict in Palestine in 1947-48 was unsuccessful,

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some may even call disastrous, and it failed to implement its own partition plan and its

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special mediator was assassinated.

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That's not the story that we're going to be talking about.

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But yeah, they still today have not settled down.

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The Palestine-Israel conflict?

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Yeah.

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Are they still working on that?

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No, no, most countries have clearly made sides on that.

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The wildly unsuccessful.

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Other UN organizations had a shorter but more spectacular life, notably the operation in

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the Congo from 1960-1964, and this is actually what we're going to be talking about today,

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which prefigured the alarming future of missions to states that were dissolving into civil

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war.

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In the Congo, the UN found itself using military force against Katongan rebels to preserve the

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unity of the state of Congo.

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A departure from the principle of strict neutrality, which has usually been thought vital to the

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success of its peacekeeping missions.

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Working with such internal conflict was a far more ambitious and demanding task than

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the traditional role of assisting consenting states to observe the ceasefires, and in effect,

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it showed that the UN might need to take governmental responsibility in some situations.

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The development towards taking responsibility in countries at risk of disintegration was

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due to a dramatic increase in the prestige and initiative of the UN Secretary General.

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This was particularly true at the time when the position was held by the charismatic Deg

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Hammer student, and this is the person we're going to be talking about today.

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But before that, I'm just going to give you a few things so that we kind of have a bit

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more stats in you.

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So the UN currently has 193 member states.

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Its purpose is to maintain international peace and security and to promote human rights

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and to provide a forum for discussion of global issues.

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The UN's system of organizations is comprised of main organs, specialized agencies, programs

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and funds, research and training institutes, and a variety of affiliated and willing.

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The General Assembly, the Security Council, the Economic and Social Council, the Trusty

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Ships Council, the International Court of Justice, and the UN Secretary.

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The Charter of the UN defines the tasks and functions of each organ.

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The Secretary General is the Chief Administrative Officer of the UN and is elected by the General

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Assembly.

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The organization is financed by assessed and voluntary contributions from its member states.

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So Chelsea, before I begin with my story, any questions about the UN?

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I don't think so.

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I think that was fairly clear.

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Okay.

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So here we are going to tell you the story, the tale, if you will, of Dag Hammerskill.

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And is this true or false?

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This is a very true story.

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Okay.

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I wasn't sure because we said conspiracy theory.

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Yes, conspiracy theory.

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Never actually existed.

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Just kidding.

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He is very real.

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Okay.

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So Dag Hammerskill was a Swedish economist and diplomat who served as the second Secretary

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General of the United Nations.

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As of 2023, he remains the youngest person to have ever held that position.

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Having been only 47 years old when he was appointed, he is the son of Helmar Hammerskull, who served

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as the Prime Minister of Sweden from 1914 to 1917.

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Hammerskull was and remains well regarded internationally as a capable diplomat and administrator,

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and his efforts to resolve various global crises led to him being the only posthumous

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recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize.

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He is considered one of the two best UN Secretary Generals and, sorry, Secretary's General.

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I hate when they do that.

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It is pluralized on the first word.

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It was bastard.

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Secretary's General.

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I've never really come across it, I think.

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Okay.

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Maybe I have.

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The only other time that comes up is Attorney General of a state or a province.

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The plural is Attorney's General.

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There's so many things that don't fucking make sense.

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So I guess if it's a hyphenated general, it's the first word that is pluralized, and that

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is why English is a fucking terrible language.

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It is.

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Anyhow, back to this.

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John F. Kennedy called Hammerskull the greatest statesman of our century.

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Immediately following the assumption of the Secretary, Hammerskull attempted to establish

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a good rapport with his staff.

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He made a point of visiting every UN department to shake hands with as many workers as possible,

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eating in the cafeteria as often as possible and relinquishing the Secretary General's

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private elevator for general use.

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He began his term by establishing his own Secretary of 4,000 Administrators and setting

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up regulations that defined the responsibilities, who was also actively engaged in smaller projects

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relating to the UN working environment.

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For example, he spearheaded the building of a meditation room at the UN headquarters,

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where people can withdraw into themselves in silence regardless of their faith, free

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or religious.

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So it just sounds like a really nice God to see.

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Yeah, this is why he won the Nobel Peace Prize, right?

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Sounds so nice.

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Yes.

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During his term, Hammerskull tried to improve relations between Israel and the Arab states,

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a task that he clearly succeeded at, because you know, just look at that.

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He was still peacefully now.

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Other highlights included in 1955 visit China to negotiate the release of 11 captured US

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pilots who served in the Korean War.

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In 1956, he established the UN Emergency Force and used this in the intervention in the 1956

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Suez Crisis, which I forgot to do a little bit of looking to, but that's okay.

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It doesn't have too much to do with this.

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Great.

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00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:22,760
I'll accept this.

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In 1960, this is where we're getting to the newly independent Congo, as per UN aid in

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diffusing the Congo crisis.

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Hammerskull made four trips to the Congo, but his efforts toward the decolonization

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of Africa were considered insufficient by the Soviet Union, which I find pretty rare

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that you're going to see a Wikipedia article where the USSR comes off as the good guy,

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where they're like, Hey, you're not taking enough steps to decolonize Africa.

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I feel like that's not a bad position.

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00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:52,080
No, it's not.

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It actually kind of makes the guy look real bad.

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Yeah.

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In September of 1960, the Soviet government announced his decision to send UN emergency

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forces to keep the peace.

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They demanded his resignation in the replacement of the office of secretary general by a three-man

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directorate with a built-in veto called the Troika.

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The objective was citing the memoir as a Soviet leader in the Kyrgyzstan to equally represent

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the interests of three groups of countries, capitalists, socialists, and recently independent.

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So outside of that, I'm now going to give you a little kind of info on the Congo crisis.

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Okay, that would be great.

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00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:31,840
So Congo was a colony of Belgium and boy, how did they fuck it up hard?

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I find most colonies are fucked up pretty good.

335
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,320
Yes, but this one in particular, how do I put this?

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New level of fucked up?

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00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:40,840
Yeah.

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Of a population of roughly 30 million Belgium killed 10 million people through disease,

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through execution, through famine, and this is a wild estimate because it's anywhere from

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1.3 to 13 million people that died during the Belgian rule of the Congo.

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There's actually a very famous picture you can find of a father sitting on a porch looking

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down at the hand and foot of his son because he was unable to gather enough rubber for

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his quota for the day.

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So they chopped off his son's hand and leg.

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Oh my God, what?

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00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:13,520
Is this it?

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Oh my God, that's really just...

348
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,960
I can't even look at that.

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Colonizers are awful in anything I've ever heard about them and they're just kind of glossed

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over for the most part, I find.

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00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,040
We tend to focus on World War I and World War II and not the colonizing that took place

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around that time as well.

353
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:32,600
Oh, absolutely.

354
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:33,600
Okay, that's just a pretty picture.

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Super dark time.

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Population decreased by 1%.

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That's crazy.

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Anyhow, 1960s Congo finally gave its independence.

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It was a little unhappy with the situation, but whatever it is what it is.

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00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:51,920
Republic of Congo became independent from Belgium in June of 1960.

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The new country immediately descended into a political chaos known as the Congo crisis.

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The arbitrary boundaries drawn by colonial powers combined with the leftover racial tensions

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and general uncertainty led to violence along racial lines in the widespread mutiny in the

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Belgian-led Congo.

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Belgian troops sent in to protect Belgian citizens, clashed with Congolese forces leading

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to the UN ordering the Belgian forces out of the country.

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00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:20,760
On July 11th of 1960, less than two weeks after the country formally gained independence,

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politician Nino Moése de Chambé declared the southernmost province of the Congo to

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be an independent nation called the state of Katonga.

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Katonga, with its copper belt and lucrative mining operations, was the wealthiest province

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of the Congo.

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The Belgians, French, and British, wanting influence in the wealthy regions, supported

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the Katonga movement in practice, if not in name.

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The United States, the United States, and the United States, agreed to the UN regulations

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forbidding countries from directly supporting secessionists.

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Members of the European armed forces became higher mercenaries in Katonga's army.

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Patrice Lumumba, Prime Minister of the Congo, appealed to the UN for forces to end the secessionist

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movement.

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The UN initially refused, considering the rebellion an internal issue.

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Patrice Lumumba had managed to acquire Soviet weapons for the Congolese army before he was

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deposed as Prime Minister by Mobuto Cese Seco in November 1960 and killed in early 1960.

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This led the UN to pass Resolution 161, which authorized UN forces to take all appropriate

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measures to prevent civil war in the Congo.

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This essentially authorized the UN to take offensive measures against the Katonga state.

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The conflict came to a close in January of 1963 after UN and US forces overwhelmed the

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Katonga military and Moes Tishambe stepped down as president of Katonga.

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00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:38,840
The UN sent nearly 20,000 geesekeepers to restore order in the Congo-Kinshasa region.

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00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,600
Hammerscould refusal to place peacekeepers in the service of Lumumba's constitutionally

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00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,480
elected government provoked a strong reaction of disprovals from the Soviets as we talked

390
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:47,480
in earlier.

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The situation will become more scandalous in the assassination of Lumumba by Tishambe's

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troops.

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00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,960
In February of 1961, the UN authorized the peacekeeping forces to use military forces

394
00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:02,440
during civil war, and the blue helmet attack on Katonga caused Tishambe to flee to Zambia.

395
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,840
Hammerscould's erratic attitude in not providing support to Lumumba's government, which had

396
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been elected by popular votes through severe criticism among aligned countries and communists

397
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and socialist countries.

398
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,280
In the end, his actions were supported by the United States and Belgium in how it was

399
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:18,280
going.

400
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:19,280
Oh, huh.

401
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:20,280
Yeah, they quite liked this.

402
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:26,360
On September 18th, 1961, Hammerscould was enroute to negotiate a ceasefire between the

403
00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:31,800
United Nations operations in Congo, forces, and the Katonga troops under Moes Tishambe.

404
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:39,600
His Douglas DC-6 airline, SEBDY, crashed near Nidola, northern Rhodesia, now Zambia.

405
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,960
Hammerscould perished as a result of the crash, as did all 15 of the passives on board.

406
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:49,000
Hammerscould's death set off a succession crisis at the UN, as there was no line of

407
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,200
succession and the Security Council had to vote on a successor.

408
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:58,840
In 1962, a Rhodesian inquiry concluded that pilot error was to blame, while later UN investigation

409
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,800
could not determine the cause of crash.

410
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:02,920
And this is where it gets interesting, Chelsea.

411
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,320
So Hammerscould, dead, plane crash.

412
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,360
Another thing that I never realized was the UN has an army.

413
00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:11,360
They have peacekeepers.

414
00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:12,840
They use them all the time.

415
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,640
It doesn't seem very peacekeeping like what they're doing.

416
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:20,680
Yeah, in this situation, they were used with force, which is actually pretty rare for a

417
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:21,680
UN involved.

418
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,880
Okay, so guys dead and then plane crash.

419
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,280
I'm kind of all over the place here, but I feel like I'm following it.

420
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:28,280
Okay, good.

421
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,160
And Rodisha said it was pilot error that caused it.

422
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,360
Okay, totally believable, I'm sure.

423
00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:37,440
Then CIA comes out and actually says it was the KGB that was responsible.

424
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:38,880
The Soviet Union didn't.

425
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:39,880
No.

426
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:45,560
And then the day after the crash, now former president at the time, not now, but at the

427
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:50,400
time he was the former US president, Harry Truman, commented that Hammerscould, quote,

428
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,640
was on the point of getting something done when they killed him.

429
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,160
Notice what I said when they killed him, and quote.

430
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:58,160
The KGB.

431
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,320
And he's clearly emphasizing the KGB.

432
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:08,280
And then in 1998, documents surfaced suggesting the CIA, MI6, and or Belgian mining interests

433
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,880
involvement via a South African air and military organization.

434
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,480
The information was contained in a file from the South African National Intelligence Agency

435
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,760
turned over to the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission in relation to the

436
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,880
1993 assassination of Chris Coney, leader of the South African Communist Party.

437
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:32,000
These documents included an alleged plot to quote, remove, end quote, Hammerscould, and

438
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:38,560
contained a supposed statement from CIA director at the time, Alan Dulles, that quote, Dague

439
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:43,200
is becoming troublesome and should be removed, end quote.

440
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,760
Hammerscould's mission to end the war over the mineral rich, Katonghi's, secession from

441
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:52,720
the newly formed Republic of Kanto was contrary to the interests of those organizations.

442
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,840
However, these documents were copies rather than originals, including substantiation or

443
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,080
authenticity through incantation and protestant.

444
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:04,560
So those papers come to light 30 years, 35 years after this crash actually came to light.

445
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:05,560
What?

446
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:06,560
And they were fake?

447
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:07,560
No, they're not necessarily fake.

448
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,560
They couldn't verify it because they weren't your leader.

449
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:10,560
Okay, that's a...

450
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:11,560
Okay.

451
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:17,240
Then in 2014, newly-castified documents revealed that the American ambassador to the Congo

452
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:22,200
sent a cable to Washington, DC, warning that the plane could have been shot down by Belgian

453
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:28,640
military pilot Jan van Riesig, commander of the small Katonghi Air Force, van Riesig

454
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,040
died in 2007.

455
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:36,160
On March 16, 2015, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon appointed members to an independent

456
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,000
panel of experts who examined new information related to Hammerscould's death.

457
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:46,480
The three member panels were led by Mohamed Chanday-Aufman, the chief justice of Tanzania,

458
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:51,640
and included Karen Mkhalli, Australia's representative to the International Civil Aviation Organization,

459
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,560
and Henrik Larsen, a ballistic expert on the Danish National Police.

460
00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:02,520
The panel released a 99-page report on July 6, 2015, and assigned moderate value to nine

461
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,360
new eyewitness accounts and transcripts of radio transmission.

462
00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:11,240
Those accounts suggested that Hammerscould's plane was already on fire as it landed, and

463
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,520
that other jet aircraft and intelligence agents were nearby.

464
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:15,520
What?

465
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,960
So their report found that as the plane was going down, it was already on fire, and there

466
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,680
were other planes into the city as it was going down.

467
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:28,080
In 2016, the original documents from the 1998 South African Investigation Service, and those

468
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,880
familiar with the investigation caution that even if authentic, the documents would have

469
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,000
been initially authored as part of a disinformation campaign.

470
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,920
So it turned out those documents from earlier were real, but maybe they were made fake at

471
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:40,920
the time.

472
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:41,920
Who knows?

473
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,120
Why are these all coming to light so long after?

474
00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:49,040
They all came to light due to the assassination of the leader of the Communist Party of South

475
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:50,040
Africa in 1998.

476
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:51,040
Oh, okay.

477
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:52,040
You did say that.

478
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:53,040
Yes, okay.

479
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,320
And all this starts to kind of domino out because of it.

480
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:02,720
And in 2019, the documentary film Cold Case Hammerscould by Danish filmmaker Mads Bruger

481
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,840
claimed that Jan van Rysigum had told a friend that he shot down Hammerscould's aircraft.

482
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,200
That's that guy from earlier.

483
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,760
This went against the official stance maintained by van Rysigum's family that he was not involved

484
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:15,760
in the death of Hammerscould.

485
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,760
According to an interview with Rysigum's wife, he was in Rhodesia negotiating the purchase

486
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,280
of a plane for the Katonga Air Force with the logbooks providing proof that he was not

487
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,120
flying for Katonga at the time.

488
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:29,600
The documentary crew interviewed multiple colleagues of van Rysigum for the film, all

489
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,480
of whom supported their theory.

490
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,520
In an interview with Swedish historian Lee Hellström, Brad Rysigum claimed that he was

491
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,360
not in South Africa at the time the crash happened and dismissed the idea of his being

492
00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:42,000
potentially involved in his very case.

493
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,120
Mostly unpublished documents continue to emerge from the UN or National Archives, one found

494
00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:50,880
in France amidst the Fonds-Folkart National Archives in Périfet.

495
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:57,120
In November of 2021, they found a death warrant for Hammerscould signed by the infamous OAS,

496
00:26:57,120 --> 00:27:01,720
the secret organization nestled in the French Army at the time of the Algeria's war in

497
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:02,720
the Philippines.

498
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,280
So the French Army had a death warrant for Hammerscould at the time.

499
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:11,640
The document reads, quote, it is high time to put an end to his harmful intrusion.

500
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:17,040
This sentence is common to justice and fairness to be carried out as soon as possible.

501
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:18,360
End quote.

502
00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:21,440
The sources are to be dealt by French journalist Maureen Picard.

503
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,080
And I just need to make this clear.

504
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,200
The reason Belgium and everybody supported Katonga is because it's a small region with

505
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:32,800
all of them in Earlwell, in Congo, and they found a convenient dictator who would just

506
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,000
let them do what they want with these resources.

507
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:40,280
And Belgium's happy, France is happy, the US is very happy with that situation.

508
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:45,640
And that's why they were on the Katonga side for so much.

509
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,400
And this is an article, I'm just going to read certain key points from it because I

510
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:54,320
found it fantastic, called Day Hammerscould's Plain Crash, What Really Happened to the UN

511
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,280
Chief from foreignpolicy.com.

512
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,520
Investigators fear they are running out of time to get to the bottom of what happened.

513
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:04,360
Key witnesses from the time period are dying off, and the UN inquiry, led by former Tanzanian

514
00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:09,440
Chief Justice Mohamed Chanday Althin, is set to conclude in September without having established

515
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,880
conclusively the circumstances of the Plain Crash.

516
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,640
Othman has been investigating the case on and off for the UN since March 2015.

517
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,720
I believe the year is 2022 on this one, it might be 2021.

518
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:24,400
Over the years, Othman has amassed a significant amount of evidence, including the testimony

519
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,840
of African eyewitnesses suggesting foul play was largely ignored by early investigators

520
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,440
in the 1960s.

521
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,560
That goes against claims by British colonial authorities in Northern Rhodesia at the time

522
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,640
that Hammerscould's death was an accident.

523
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:41,480
Othman has explored a theory that a mysterious aircraft may have either fired on Hammerscould's

524
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,920
plane or harassed the pilot causing it to crash, or even that the plane had been sabotaged

525
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:50,760
by South African mercenaries allegedly with the aid of CIA and other Western intelligence

526
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:51,760
agencies.

527
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,760
The CIA had previously desired involvement in the agency's operation Celeste.

528
00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:00,680
Othman said in his two previous reports issued in 2007 and 2019 that the burden of proof

529
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:05,680
was on member states to demonstrate that they had conducted a thorough review of their records

530
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,080
and archives, particularly from their intelligence agencies.

531
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,920
Quote, the continued non-disclosure of potentially relevant new information in the intelligence,

532
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,360
security and defense archives of member states constitutes the biggest barrier to understanding

533
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,160
the full truth on the event.

534
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,800
End quote, Othman wrote in 2017 reports.

535
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,880
So he's trying to get all the evidence he can and no parties that he thinks are involved

536
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:29,880
or cooperating in having the evidence.

537
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,880
Yeah, it seems like everybody kind of wanted it.

538
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,760
Yeah, I'm going to talk about this in the end because that's the part I find so weird

539
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:38,760
about it.

540
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:44,680
Weren't there eyewitnesses that saw other planes or was that just a document altogether

541
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:45,680
that was?

542
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:46,680
No, there are.

543
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,280
And they are in the official reports sent to the U.N.

544
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,200
There are three official reports done by Othman and we'll get to that later.

545
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:55,200
That there are other aircraft?

546
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:56,200
Yes.

547
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:57,200
Okay.

548
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,560
The government of Zimbabwe, Zambia and the Democratic Republic of the Congo have appointed

549
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:05,720
high ranking figures, including Sydney, Sakuramayee, a former Zimbabwe and defense minister to

550
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,560
oversee the search for documents and have provided full access to their archa.

551
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,920
Belgium, France and Sweden have also granted extensive access to their security files,

552
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,920
but the U.S. and Britain have been less forthcoming, appointing relatively low level officials

553
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,240
to manage the search for relevant evidence and releasing the occasional confirmation

554
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,120
of incidents brought to them by the U.N.

555
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,600
A reviews and commission of inquiry found that the pilot had miscalculated the height

556
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,560
of the tree line and plowed into the forest canopy.

557
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,320
The official story from the original time.

558
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,640
The subsequent U.N. inquiry could not establish the cause of the crash, leaving open the possibility

559
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,960
that Hamas Gold could have died either as a result of an accident or foul play.

560
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,960
Eye witnesses in the area recall seeing a small plane approach the Albertina before

561
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:52,320
there was a bright flash in the sky and then watching a flaming aircraft plunge into the

562
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:57,200
forest instantly killing everyone on board except the delegation's acting chief security

563
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,280
officer Harold Julian who died from his injuries nearly a week later.

564
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:06,280
Before his death Julian, a former U.S. Marine, suggested a threat or attack as the plane

565
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:11,600
approached Nidola, possibly involving a sudden explosion, according to Aufmann's report.

566
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,520
This evidence was augmented in 2018-19 by information from Zimbabwe that showed that

567
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:21,400
northern Moghesean authorities had tried to stifle those statements of Julian from being

568
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:22,400
made public.

569
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:23,400
End quote.

570
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:28,040
And that's what Julian wrote in 2019.

571
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:29,440
Aufmann has cited documents indicating that British officials had intervened behind closed

572
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:35,400
doors to persuade the U.N. to alter the conclusion of the report to rural sabotage or an external

573
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:36,400
attack.

574
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:42,080
In 1992, two of Hamas Gold's top advisers, Connors Thurzo Bryan and George Ivan Smith

575
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,960
wrote in the Guardian that they had evidence that their bosses plane had been shot down

576
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:51,680
by accident by mercenaries in the employ of Belgian, American, and British mining interests,

577
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,800
which feared hammer-skilled peacemaking would jeopardize their business interests.

578
00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:01,400
Gorin Bjorkdal, a Swedish national whose father worked in the region, began researching

579
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,920
the U.N. chief's death and conducting interviews with local charcoal makers who had witnessed

580
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,560
Albertina's final dissent.

581
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,800
Rhodesian and U.N. emphascators at the time largely dismissed the testimony of local black

582
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:13,280
and African women.

583
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,920
The case received a boost when Susan Williams, a British scholar who grew up in Zambia, revisited

584
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,680
the crime unearthing previously unseen documents from the archived capers of Lord Cuthbert

585
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:27,760
Alford, who was the British High Commissioner of Bordesia in 1961, and who was at the Nidola

586
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:32,880
Airport on the night in Trash, including a secret report by Neil Richie, an MI6 agent

587
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,600
who organized the planned meeting between Hamas Gold and Tishambay.

588
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,160
Williams' 2011 book, Who Killed Hamas Gold?

589
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,120
The U.N., the Cold War, and White's premises in Africa helped spur the establishment a

590
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,440
year later of the Hamas Gold Commission, a voluntary body of international jurists and

591
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,680
lawyers chaired by the British during Stephen Sedley.

592
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,680
Williams has since fed documents to the U.N. investigators.

593
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:59,560
The response to the U.S. and the U.K. to judge Alford had been appalling and arrogant.

594
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,400
Williams told foreign policies in an email, but they are entirely consistent with the

595
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,680
behavior of those states at the time of the crash, when Britain was the colonial and racist

596
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:12,000
ruler of Northern Nidigia, and the U.S. was interfering in the process of decolonization

597
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,000
in Africa.

598
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,000
I shouldn't end quote.

599
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:19,120
Both the U.K. and the U.S. stated that all relevant information had been made available,

600
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,840
but this was not true in either case.

601
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,960
The Hamas Gold Commission concluded in its final 2013 report, quote, there is persuasive

602
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:32,360
evidence that the aircraft was subjected to some form of attack or threat as it circled

603
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:37,400
to land at Adola, end quote, is also concluded that it is hiding the likely that the entirety

604
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:42,680
of the local and regional Adola radio traffic on the night of September 17, 18, 1961 was

605
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:47,320
tracked and recorded by the NSA and possibly also by the CID.

606
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:51,720
These findings prompted the UN General Assembly in 2015 to adopt a resolution calling on then

607
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:56,160
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon to create a panel of experts to examine the case and

608
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,440
determine whether there was enough evidence to merit further investigation.

609
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,600
At the time, Hamas Gold death, the United States and Britain had extensive intelligence

610
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:08,440
assets in the region, including CIA agents and NSA surveillance capabilities.

611
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,040
But much of what the UN has learned about U.S. activities in the region has come from

612
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,880
independent researchers, private archives or other governments.

613
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:21,160
Othman has asked the U.S. to provide access to intercepts or other evidence of communications

614
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,400
from Hamas Gold's plane or other U.S. aircrafts in the area at the time of the crash.

615
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,960
On the night of the crash, there were at least three U.S. planes, including U.S. Navy and

616
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,200
Army Attaché's aircrafts.

617
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:36,600
Equipped with the state of the art surveillance equipment at the airport in Adola, one of

618
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,920
the U.S. intelligence officials, Carl Southall, recalled in the interviews having overheard

619
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,480
the intercepts of a known European mercenary pilot, nicknamed the Lone Ranger, shooting

620
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:46,920
Hamas Gold's plane.

621
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:52,680
And U.S. Ambassador to Congo Edmund A. Guglion sent a report to Washington on the day Hamas

622
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,960
Gold was killed, stating that the plane may have been shot down.

623
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,120
The historical records strongly suggest that governments, including the U.S., which had

624
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,800
a presence in the and around the Congo region at the time, may hold such evidence.

625
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,040
Othman wrote in an annex to his 2019 report.

626
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,440
But the U.S. has provided limited confirmation for years.

627
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:17,680
Washington denied that Al Abra, a former U.S. Air Force security service officer who also

628
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,600
overheard transmissions of an attack the night of the crash, worked for the United States,

629
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,920
only acknowledging his links to the U.S. intelligence after he furnished American officials with

630
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,920
his government identification.

631
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:33,240
So they are absolutely not involved in this conversation, all giving absolutely minimal

632
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:35,680
information as it's clearly shown.

633
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:40,000
Yeah, and they are pointing the blame at someone else.

634
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,880
Oh, they're just saying we don't have anything.

635
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:43,040
We don't know.

636
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:44,040
I don't know.

637
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:45,560
But they said the Lone Ranger was there.

638
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:46,920
No, somebody did.

639
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:48,480
Somebody who worked for the government.

640
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,200
But they say they have none of those records or that they can even confirm that guy worked

641
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:53,200
for you.

642
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:54,200
Oh, okay.

643
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:55,200
I misunderstood.

644
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,280
I thought that was them being like, oh, yeah, all our planes were there and we definitely

645
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:00,280
could like pick some stuff up.

646
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,280
No, they're like, look, you don't have any records.

647
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:03,280
There's this other plane that was there.

648
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,320
And that guy who's there is like, no, we have those.

649
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,920
We don't even know you work for us.

650
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,720
A spokesperson for the US State Department said the United States takes offense in quarry

651
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:18,440
furiously and quote shares his interest in understanding the circumstances of the death

652
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:23,560
of Secretary General Big Hammerstein and quote, I cannot in quote there over the years the

653
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:28,360
US has shared over a thousand pages previously classified documents with the investigators

654
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,320
and quote the spokesperson said speaking on condition of handling the office of the director

655
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,720
of national intelligence and the official added quote, they conducted yet another exhaustive

656
00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:40,480
search of the US intelligence archives and did not find any additional information that

657
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:41,480
would shed light.

658
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,320
So they're saying that they turned everything over the possibly book.

659
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:45,800
Was there a wink at the end?

660
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,680
You can't see that because it's written down.

661
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:53,000
It was super sarcastic, how they were saying British Hammer, do you change colonial intelligence

662
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,200
officials were also intercepting communications suggesting that they were pertinent clues

663
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:58,840
buried in their own archives.

664
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:03,680
Othman is seeking access to documents describing the activities of Richie, the MI6 agent and

665
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,440
other British officials who were tasked with organizing a meeting between Hammer's golden

666
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:08,440
to Shamban.

667
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,720
Othman also saw information about the Belgian mercenary pilot, Jan van Riesigan, whose name

668
00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:17,400
has keeps coming up, who had served in the British Royal Air Force during World War

669
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,280
II and is alleged to be a colleague who have admitted to flying the plane with Rockdown

670
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:22,800
Hammer School's aircraft.

671
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,920
Keir Coppins, a colleague of the Belgian pilot, asserted in the documentary Cold Case

672
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,400
Hammer School that van Riesigan was known as the lone ranger.

673
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,040
This is where we're going to talk about Othman is also seeking information from the South

674
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:38,480
African government about an alleged plot by paramilitary group known as the South African

675
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:44,920
Institute for Maritime Research, which, man, for a terrorist group that is a weird name.

676
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,480
They're planning to do a satanic hammer school by placing a bomb in his plane before it left

677
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,080
the airfield, Leopoldville.

678
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,440
Now the Congolese capitol of Kinshawson, on route to Nidalee.

679
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,560
In a March 2019 letter to South Africa, Othman said he understood that the South African

680
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:02,080
government had located documents detailing the plan, dubbed Operation Celeste, that came

681
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,680
earlier with the CIN, but that those documents had never been shared with the U.S.

682
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,960
And this last little bit is on Jan van Riesigan.

683
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,760
And he has been named as possible attacker before, but has always described simply as

684
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:14,760
a Belgian pilot.

685
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:16,200
And this comes from the Observer.

686
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,240
So the Observer can now reveal that he had extensive ties to Britain, including a British

687
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:24,880
mother and wife, trained with the RAF and was decorated by Britain for his services in the

688
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:26,400
Second World War.

689
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:30,760
Van Riesigamp, whose father was Belgian, escaped occupied Europe at the start of the war to

690
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,120
join the resistance in England.

691
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,000
He trained with the RAF and flew missions over Nazi-held areas during this period.

692
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,120
He met his married British wife, cementing a lifelong connection.

693
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,120
For decades, Van Riesigamp appeared to have proved that he wasn't flying in the region

694
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,880
on the night of Hammersfield's plane, and the Albertina came down outside Nidola in

695
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,360
Zambia and then called Northern Maldivesh flight logs meticulous records of where and

696
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:53,360
when he flew.

697
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,960
The peer show of Van Riesigamp was not flying for most of that month, returning to duty

698
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,360
only on September 20th.

699
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:03,120
However, Roger Brackham, another mercenary flying for the Katonges, told filmmakers

700
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,760
that his colleagues' log books are dotted with a parent forgery.

701
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:11,000
He does not believe that Van Riesigamp shot down Hammersfield, but when asked in an interview

702
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:15,920
for the film if he considered the log book fake, he responds, quote, I won't say, but

703
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,160
I didn't recognize the story of Tolled.

704
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,640
He leafed through the book, he later directly accuses Van Riesigamp of forgery.

705
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,560
Well, this is fake, end quote.

706
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,480
Brackham says bluntly, one flight destination and goes on to add that some of the names

707
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,560
listed for co-pilots are not real.

708
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,400
A friend has also come forward to claim that less than a decade after Hammersfield's death,

709
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,080
Van Riesigamp told him he had attacked the plane.

710
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,280
Pierre Coppens met Van Riesigamp in 1965 when he was flying for a parachute training center

711
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:41,280
in Belgium.

712
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,600
Over several conversations, he claimed to pilot detailed how he overcame various technical

713
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,400
challenges to down the plane and where who was traveling.

714
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,000
Quote, he did not know.

715
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,800
He said, I made the mission and that's all.

716
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:54,800
And then I had to go back and save my life.

717
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,480
And that's the end of that.

718
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:03,200
So there's definitely a conspiracy, but the thing is, there are so many that it's hard

719
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,600
to actually say which one that happens.

720
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,120
Was it the British that shot him down?

721
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:09,320
Was it the CIA?

722
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:10,320
Was it Van Riesigamp?

723
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,040
It was probably Van Riesigamp.

724
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,400
But as it was going down, did the South Africans blow it up?

725
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,720
It could be all of them.

726
00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:21,480
And this is still going on as of today.

727
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,320
Othman's report came out in 2022.

728
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,440
It's called the Othman's Imminent Persons Report.

729
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,040
And I found a few key quotes from it.

730
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:29,040
I just wanted to highlight.

731
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,320
There's three paragraphs, so it won't take long.

732
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,880
As mandated, I have also sought to draw conclusions from the investigations already conducted.

733
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:40,920
As in 2019, I assessed that it remains possible that an external attack or threat was a cause

734
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:41,920
of the crash.

735
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,960
However, it is not reasonable to reach a conclusion as to the cause of the tragic event based on

736
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,840
presently available but incomplete information.

737
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,800
This is because material information that appears to have been created or held by member

738
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,080
states remains disclosed.

739
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:56,080
Undisclosed.

740
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,080
I was just going to say disclosed.

741
00:40:58,080 --> 00:40:59,960
Did I miss something?

742
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:01,960
Remained undisclosed.

743
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:07,000
In March 2020 and subsequently, I sent requests for information to the four key member states

744
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,480
that have been identified in 2019 that were urged by the Assembly to engage further with

745
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,680
the process of disclosing relevant records.

746
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:18,280
They are the Russian Federation, South Africa, the United Kingdom, a great Britain in Northern

747
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,000
Ireland, and the United States of America.

748
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,960
The 2017 and 2019 report included that burden of proof had shifted to certain member states

749
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,280
to show that they had conducted a full review of records and archives in their custody or

750
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:31,280
possession.

751
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,680
I respectfully submit that the burden of proof to conduct a full review of records and archives

752
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,600
resulting in full disclosure has not been discharged at present time.

753
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,880
Indeed, information received from other sources under the present mandate underscores that

754
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:48,720
it is almost certain that these member states created, held, or were otherwise aware of

755
00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:53,280
specific and important information regarding the cause of the tragic event.

756
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,120
That information is yet to be disclosed.

757
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:57,880
Yeah, obviously.

758
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:02,080
And that is the story of the assassination of Dave Hamersfield.

759
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:03,240
What do you think?

760
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:04,440
I don't fucking know.

761
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:09,120
If you want to keep up to date on it, there is literally a website called Hamersfield

762
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:13,880
inquiry.info where you can learn more about this and keep up to date with the most recent

763
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:14,880
findings.

764
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,480
There is literally news updates.

765
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,760
The last one being July 19th of 2023.

766
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,520
They certainly picked the name that everybody could spell just hearing it.

767
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,920
All the streets are spellet, yeah.

768
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:31,600
And like it is definite there is foul play involved, but there are so many bad actors

769
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:37,960
that are not helping in the story that clearly have some sort of involvement that is hard

770
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,560
to actually say the actual story that took place.

771
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:45,320
Well it's always funny when there is just bad story and cover up when it's like obvious

772
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,040
that something is going on.

773
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,400
And it seems to happen in so many of these conspiracy things that you are just like

774
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:56,320
we can tell that something is going on and then people who are like there is no conspiracy

775
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,160
or like well why would it be that bad?

776
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,040
And there is no question there is a conspiracy here.

777
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:06,480
The literal paper to the UN about this says I don't know what happened because people

778
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,480
won't give me the records all I know is there was foul play.

779
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:14,080
But the problem is, is like okay, Yan shot him down.

780
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,720
Okay, then why is the US not handing over records?

781
00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:19,200
Did they pay him?

782
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,560
Were they involved in setting it up?

783
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:27,200
But then why did France have this contract to kill out on Anasville?

784
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:31,640
And then why are there records showing that the South African group blew up the play?

785
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,520
That's why I say everyone's in full.

786
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,440
You may never know because even the guys said we're coming up to the point where everyone's

787
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:38,440
going to be dead.

788
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,400
Yeah, but like these are the actual conspiracies about the UN.

789
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,600
They aren't some secret organization that's controlling everything from behind.

790
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:51,360
They're very clearly a bureaucratic thing that can't do much.

791
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,520
These are the real stories that you need to look at.

792
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,600
And this is the real bad actors on that level that need to be looked at.

793
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:03,360
Or the people who are involved in that side and still won't turn over their records.

794
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:04,680
They're probably all guilty.

795
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:08,040
Oh yeah, there's a reason they're not turning over their records.

796
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:10,720
So can't the UN do what do they have no records?

797
00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:14,560
No, because it involves of the four countries that won't handle the records.

798
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,960
Three of them are part of the security council and have veto power.

799
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,440
So like what are they going to do?

800
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,840
There's always some way around things for.

801
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:22,840
For the powerful, yes.

802
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,640
Yeah, for the powerful to commit atrocities.

803
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:26,640
Yeah.

804
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,640
Okay, I'm not really sure what to comment here.

805
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:29,840
That was a good one.

806
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:37,560
It's a very real conspiracy without an answer to this game because there's so many possible.

807
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,520
And yet still all of them could be right at the same time.

808
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,440
I know that is a really weird part.

809
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:48,040
All of them seem very plausible and you can make it fit.

810
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,480
So that's why I rest with all of them.

811
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:51,480
It all happens.

812
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:52,480
It's all of them.

813
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,480
And they probably that yeah, that I.

814
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:59,920
There was a French assassin on the plane as it was getting shot down and then so bad for

815
00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:00,920
them.

816
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:05,640
That's couldn't they have like all got together and been like, let's hire this guy and then

817
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:07,320
we'll all just cover for each other.

818
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:08,320
They could have.

819
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,000
They won't turn over the damn records.

820
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,920
Then it's like that one where who drew the short straw?

821
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:13,920
Nobody knows.

822
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,080
So then they all just like, they'll never know.

823
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:20,240
I thought the whole point of drawing straws was so that you knew who drew the short straw.

824
00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:21,240
Long straw.

825
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:22,480
Is it that nobody knows?

826
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,320
But no, are you talking about blanks in the rifle?

827
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:26,640
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

828
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:28,600
That one, you knew the one I was trying to get.

829
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,200
So when you're assassinating somebody by gunfire or firing squad.

830
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:33,200
Yeah, yeah, that one.

831
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:37,800
There's only a few active bullets and there's at least one blank so that nobody knows who

832
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,880
actually fired the killing round.

833
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:41,440
Yeah, that's a good theory.

834
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:42,440
Right.

835
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:49,120
I mean, it's not terrible and like justice possible is anything else except for pilot

836
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:50,120
error.

837
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,760
Unless you count the fact that a dead pilot can make errors and not piloting a crashing

838
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:55,760
plane.

839
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,360
Well, I mean, he's making all errors.

840
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,360
Should have been alive.

841
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,480
Yeah, it's the first rule of flying a plane.

842
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:03,480
It really is.

843
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,600
They will not put a dead man in the pilot seat.

844
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:10,320
Unless you believe the 9-11 theories, but that's a whole other thing that we will not

845
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,920
touch for a while.

846
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,320
Having said that, Chelsea, do you have anything else to say?

847
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:21,240
No, I don't think I can really particularly add anything on that other than it's always

848
00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:27,600
refreshing when you get kind of like a non-crazy conspiracy theory, even though we're just getting

849
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:28,600
off one.

850
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:29,600
That's really not crazy.

851
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:33,160
I feel like we've been progressing from, you know, we went through the Serpo story,

852
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,640
we went through Britney Spears and now we're very groundy.

853
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:37,640
It's a really nice return.

854
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,600
I can't wait to see what we have next.

855
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,280
Well, speaking of that, I have been Taylor with Chelsea.

856
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,160
We are Journey to the Fringe.

857
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:50,040
Thank you all for listening and we will see you next week with whatever less crazy story

858
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,040
we have.

859
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,640
Okay, bye.

860
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:56,960
Thank you for listening to Journey to the Fringe.

861
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:03,160
If you have liked what you have listened to, please like, share, subscribe, or follow,

862
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,320
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863
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:12,440
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864
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:17,280
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865
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,000
I bet you we are there.

866
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:23,480
And if you really want to communicate with us and give us ideas for new episodes or tell

867
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:30,400
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868
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:52,200
For now, I'll see you in the next episode.