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Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 119. We're the Nelsons. I'm Lanette.

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And I'm Shaun. And in today's episode, we talk with Beth Syverson, who is an adoptive mother

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and an author. And in this episode, we are going to be talking about suicidal ideation and suicide.

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So if that's triggering for you, you may want to choose to stop listening to this episode now.

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And Beth will talk about this in the episode, but in 2019, her adopted son Joey was hospitalized

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with a mental health crisis, really. And while there, Beth discovered that he had been using

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cannabis, some psychedelics, and more. This episode talks about that experience and what she has

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learned as an adoptive mother to help Joey to cope with trauma that's connected to his adoption.

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He was adopted when he was seven months old from Japan. And in this episode, we are sharing an

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interview between Alicia Gallagher and Beth. Alicia has been a volunteer with the Open Adoption Project,

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and we are so grateful for her and the time she spent talking to Beth and gaining this really

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powerful information for us. Hey, we're here with Beth Syverson, the author of Adoption and

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Suicide. Beth, I am seriously so excited to talk to you. This is such an important topic, and you

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have written about it so beautifully, really. Oh, thank you. Thank you for letting me on here

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and for being willing to talk about this tough topic. I really appreciate it. Yes, of course.

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And I just, to start off, I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about your story for those

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who have not read the book. Tell us about Joey, because as I was reading through it, it seemed like

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you, I wonder if you divide your life into a few parts. One of them is before Joey started

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struggling with suicidal ideation and after, and just the dramatic way that your life changed. So

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I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about the before, and then we can talk about the

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during and after. Yeah, that's a very good observation. Yeah, my life does kind of start

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and stop on February 7, 2019, when he had his first crisis. But yeah, before that, so I adopted him

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with his adoptive father, who I later divorced, but we adopted him from Japan as an infant.

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And he was the most cute and cuddly and happy baby. And we just thought we won the jackpot. Well,

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I still do think we won the jackpot with him. He is really amazing. But he was just a vibrant, hyper,

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but in a good way, like just like a live child. Just he was a great athlete. He was a musician.

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He is I shouldn't be talking about in the past, but his childhood was just, from my perspective,

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he was an amazing kid. And we were so proud of him. And we thought everything was was just good

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to go. We thought we thought he was fine. And turns out he really, really was not fine for quite a

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long time. But I was super naive about adoption. I didn't know. I didn't know about adoption trauma,

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or about relinquishment trauma, or about any sort of attachment issues. I just, I didn't know

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anything. They didn't tell us anything. In Japan, like literally, they didn't speak English,

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the people that we adopted him from. And they weren't about to give us like a handbook or some

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sort of manual. I mean, there really isn't one that exists anyway. But so I was naive. I wish I

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knew a whole lot of things, but I didn't. So now, that's one of the reasons I'm out, you know,

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with the podcast and with the book and trying to help other adoptive parents and families and

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teachers and therapists and people understand adoptions complexities better because man,

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I wish I would have known. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's what I appreciate so much about your

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book is that you don't by any means paint yourself as the hero that I knew everything,

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and we did everything we could and yet he still struggles, but the honesty that you're bringing,

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I think opens the door for a lot of other adoptive parents to realize that there is a

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lifelong education that they have to engage in. Yep, every day I'm still learning. I still am

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paying attention as closely as possible to other adult adoptees that are willing to talk about

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their path and their struggles and their healing. Yeah, there's so much and, you know, we parents

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like to be right and we like to make our kids the ones that are, you know, a mess and can you please

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just fix my kid and that would be sure nice. But it's a family problem when you have someone that's

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suicidal. It's not that person's problem in some sort of isolated bubble. It's a family problem.

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It's a systems problem, even like a cultural problem like it's it involves everyone. So the

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the message of the book, I hope one of the messages is that all of us need to do our work and

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especially adoptive parents. I think we have an extra obligation to do our work because we have

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taken on this child that came to us with trauma, no matter what. Yes, exactly. And can you tell us

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about that first suicide attempt? You were with Joey, just take us through that story. Yeah, so

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he was 15 years old. I got a call from his dad saying, Beth, Joey's okay. But something really

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bad happened and he tried to unalive himself at his dad's house. I won't go into the details about

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that. Just because I don't want to trigger other people. But I had to run down there. I know, like

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obviously drop everything, run down there and try to navigate this mental health system that our

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country has, which is not great. And it really has no idea what to do with teenagers and really,

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really has no idea what to do with adopted people that never even came up as a question. No one ever

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even asked if, you know, no one asks on any sort of intake form, do you have attachment issues? Do

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you have any relinquishment in your childhood? In fact, there have been many therapists and

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psychiatrists along the way that have said, oh, his adoption, I have nothing to do with it. He was a

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baby. It's fine. So, and I was clueless too at the time. So I'm just like, oh my God, trying to save

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my kid's life. And I was freaked out. And I thought, okay, all right, we'll get him in this hospital.

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I guess he'll stay there for several days. I don't know how this works, but they'll fix him. They'll

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take care of it and he'll come out and he'll be fine. And while he was staying in the hospital

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that first couple of days, we found out, you know, they do blood work and we found out that he had

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cannabis in his system and alcohol and psychedelics. And I was like, what? I had no idea. My kid was

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using anything. It turns out his dad had been providing him with cannabis and money for whatever

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he wanted, all he wanted since he was 13. So that was really, really bad news, really, really bad

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news. And I was just in a state of shock and dismay. And I thought, and I thought that they'll

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think they'll fix it. He'll spend, you know, 10 days in the hospital and he'll come home and he

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won't be needing those drugs anymore because they'll fix whatever was causing that. And we'll be good

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to go. You know, I was like, dodge that bullet, but oh goodness, I was so, so wrong about that. So

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he's 20 now, almost 21 and still struggling with cannabis, particularly if anyone tries to tell

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you that cannabis is not addictive, that is who, for some people, it is extremely addictive,

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especially at the rates that the kids are using it now in the dabbing and the high, high percentages

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of THC that's in the stuff that the kids are using nowadays. And we're in Southern California and they

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will deliver it to your house. And it's like super everywhere. Every strip mall on every corner has a

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weed shop and they're happy to serve minors and you know, they're not supposed to, but so it's been

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a really, really difficult environment for him. And just, just, he's just been on the struggle bus

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and I have to, you know, I've been trying to, like I said, on our podcast, I'm walking along beside

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him while working on my own personal growth and healing. And that's, it's been quite a journey.

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And I'm literally super grateful for it, terrifying as it has been, it has pushed both of us and my

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whole family forward and learning and understanding more deeply what's going on.

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That's such an intense way to come to realize the struggles that he had been having, because it

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sounds like there was a lot of stuff going on underneath the surface that he might not have been

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expressing or because of like the lack of education that you had experienced, you weren't

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going to. So what were, looking back, what were some of those red flags, if there were, that

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with the knowledge you have now would have been more alarming at the time?

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Yeah, certainly I missed red flags and he was, he is my only child and so I didn't have anyone to

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compare it to. And I thought, I guess this is adolescence. He's kind of sullen, isolating,

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he spent a lot of time in his bedroom. I thought he was just masturbating all the time. Maybe he

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was doing that too, but you know, it turns out he was, you know, using LSD in his bedroom all by

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himself and which is extremely dangerous. And, and I don't know if you know what DMT is. DMT is

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another psychedelic and it's extremely fast acting and strong. It's like, because LSD like is an all

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day kind of thing. You're like, whoo, for like eight hours. Well, DMT, you go up and down in like

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20 minutes, but it's very volatile and can make people do kind of crazy stuff. So it's dangerous

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to do by yourself for sure. And without, you know, a guide or without someone helping, he was not

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doing it in some sort of spiritual, you know, personal growth mode. He was like trying to

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literally get out of his own mind because his mind was so disturbed and upset, right? Because of

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adoption trauma and stuff, life. So, so the isolation, you know, his grades dropped, he wasn't

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playing as well in baseball, you know, and along with all of this, he was getting bullied badly,

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but we didn't know that either. And just the, he, he just shut down. Like anytime I drove him to

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school, which took a 45 minute, it was a 45 minute drive, he would just sleep the whole time.

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So he would just like go into his cave. And it turns out he, like many adoptees, like many of us,

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he was a people pleaser. He doesn't want us to be upset. He doesn't want to get in trouble. And so

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he just tried to put a mask on and just pretend everything is fine as things were kind of falling

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apart around him. And then at a certain point, he's like, I can't do this anymore. And then the

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suicide attempts happened. And then, then here we are. Well, the, the drug use that you're describing

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it, he's looking for an escape in the book. I love that you include excerpts from him in the book.

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You hear directly what his experience was like. And there are a couple of things that stood out

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to me that he describes it as nothing was as important as stopping the feeling that I was

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feeling in the moment. I just wanted peace. And so I, that's just such a crucial part of this, that

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it's not that, that an adoptee that's struggling with this doesn't want to be here. They just don't

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know how to get away from the discomfort. That's right. We talk about the suicidal part in the book

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and in the work I do, a lot of us have a suicidal part and it's, we, I believe, and if you know

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anything about parts work or internal family systems, there's no bad parts. All of our parts

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are trying to help. Like in the movie Inside Out, it's kind of like that. Like all of those

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characters in our brains are all trying to help in our own way, in their own way. And so I think

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that's the thing about the suicide part, is that we're all trying to help in our own way, in their

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own way. So that suicidal part was like, oh man, but you are in so much pain. Let me help you out

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with that. And, you know, it didn't want to kill all of him, like to kill him, but it wanted to

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kill the pain and get rid of the pain and kind of like put him on high alert, dude, something has

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happened. So thank goodness his suicide attempts and he's had, oh God, probably eight or 10 of them

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along the way. None of them have been complete, thank goodness. And, you know, he just keeps

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going day after day after day, which I admire him greatly for. And I'm, I should have said this

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towards the beginning, but I guess obviously, because he co-wrote the book with me, he wants

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into the world and he, I told him I was doing this podcast and he said, go mom, just go do it

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and share a story. So I want everyone to know I'm not telling his story without his permission and

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his blessing. And if he was in, you know, more stable place, he probably would be here with me

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right now. Maybe someday he will. Yeah. And I'm so hopeful that that will happen because

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it's the collaboration that you two have is, I mean, it takes away the shame that can just

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double down on those feelings of, you feel guilt and shame for wanting to not be here. And then

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it just makes it worse. You withdraw even more and more. And so to just put, shed light on it is,

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it is so healing for so many people that are going to be able to hear this and read your book.

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Oh, I hope so. That's our deep, deep hope is that it helps a lot of people. Thank you.

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So after you learned kind of baptism by fire, really like now I have a child in crisis. I need

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to learn everything I can about what he's experiencing, what he has been experiencing

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and not verbalizing. What have you since learned? What have you been able to do that you felt like

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has helped him in this experience that he's been having? Yeah. An adoptee acquaintance of mine,

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you know, sent me to the Primal Wound, which is kind of a book that a lot of people have kind of

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discovered adoption trauma through. Now I think I recommend a book called Adoption Unfiltered.

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It's even, you know, it's more updated. The Primal Wound by Nancy Verrier is, you know,

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over 20 years old. And so this new book called Adoption Unfiltered is an adoptee, a birth parent

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and an adoptive parent together. And they have a lot of adoptive voices in there. And I think it's

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even better and more up to date. But so I just started digging in. I read the Adoption, the

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Primal Wound. I got an adoption therapist for both Joey and me. I watched a wonderful film called

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Reckoning with the Primal Wound by Rebecca Autumn Sansom. And things like that. Listen to the podcast

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Adopties On has been an amazing resource with Haley Radke. And, you know, just kind of like diving

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deep into adoption trauma, like, oh, my gosh, what did I not know? So it's been very helpful. And I

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also for the first year ran Joey to every person I could find that would do anything to help him,

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you know, psychiatrists, adoption therapists, gurus. I was like, whatever, if you can help my son,

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here you go. And that made us both kind of crazy, you know, running him around trying to fix him,

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like, please fix my son. And so at a certain point, I got a life coach who specialized in

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helping parents with addiction, with children that have addiction. Her name is Heather Ross.

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She's amazing. And she helped us greatly. She helped my wife and I to turn the spotlight off

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of Joey, which is super uncomfortable for him, and turn it on ourselves and go, okay, what's going on

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with us? How can we get our ourselves as parents more regulated and calmer, so Joey can have a safe

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place to land. And so we can, you know, provide some more stability instead of us all running

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around like chickens with our heads cut off, you know. That is a very interesting point you bring

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up because it sounds counterintuitive, I'm sure, to a lot of adoptive parents and a lot of parents,

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period, that because especially when your child is in crisis, it would make sense, you would think,

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to make it all about them. My needs come second. Whatever you need right now is the most important

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thing. So, and even saying that out loud, it doesn't sound quite right. So what, so tell me

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a little bit more about what that exploration has been like for you and your wife. Yeah, well,

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it's a cultural expectation of parenting. You sacrifice yourself, you sit on the baseball

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sidelines, you know, five nights a week, and, you know, you do whatever you need to do for your kid,

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and you just lay yourself down. And that's not great. Not a great cultural narrative. So

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more about, you know, that when you get on an airplane, they say, you know, if the oxygen masks

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come down, use it on yourself first, and then help your kid because if you faint because you can't

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breathe, then you're really no good to help your kid. So you've got to maintain your own composure

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first. So regulate yourself first. So that was a big shift for us. But it turned our family's

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ship around quite rapidly, actually. And it's, it's been, it's still we're still struggling.

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I don't think this struggle will ever end. Honestly, I think it'll be something that is,

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you know, does any struggle ever end really, we just kind of learn to deal with it better. And

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I really hope that Joey will find some more stability. But I don't think we'll ever say,

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Oh, glad we got through that one. I think this is going to be a lifetime of learning and growing

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for all of us. This adoption thing is not just a one thing that you did. At one certain point,

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it is a lifetime of learning and surrender and growing. And what are things that you

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do now? How is your routine different? How is your self care different? And how have you noticed that

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impacts the way that you support Joey? Oh, thank you. Good question. It is radically different.

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So I do a whole bunch of things to keep myself regulated. I meditate every day. I've been working

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on mindfulness, just as in general, like staying more present in my own emotions, kind of being

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able to watch myself from above, like, Oh, you're doing that thing again, aren't you? God bless you.

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It's self compassion, but oh, there you go again. That kind of thing mindfulness. I picked up drumming.

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I do taiko drumming, which is a Japanese art form. I wanted to do it with Joey because I was trying to

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connect with his heritage. I'm white in case you're just listening and don't look at my picture.

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I'm white. He's Japanese. And I thought, Oh, we can do it together. And when you do something as a mom

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of a teenager, that thing is no longer cool. So sadly, he doesn't do it with me, but I enjoy it

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greatly. It gets a lot of energy out and it's fun. And it's a nice kind of a hobby for me, but it's

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very therapeutic at the same time. And, oh, I am, I've been working, you know, I go to therapy,

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I've done EMDR, I've done brain spotting, I've done internal family systems work, like going into

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my own stuff. I'm not talking about Joey in those sessions. I'm talking about my own stuff,

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my childhood stuff that's been pulling up because of what's happening with Joey and just

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because of life. So it's extensive and it's never going to end either. This journey that we're on,

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it's intense and it's beautiful. It is Joey and I, despite all of our struggles, he and I

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are closer than ever. He's able to tell me all sorts of stuff. I ask him at least weekly,

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what's your SI today, as in suicidal ideation, like on a scale of one to 10, how suicidal are

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you today? And he just shoots me a number and usually I just say, oh, okay. Usually it's like

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two or three and it's almost never zero. Sometimes it's a zero, but it's almost always two or three.

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And then sometimes it goes way up, but it hasn't for a long time. So anyway, he and I are able to

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talk about things deeply, really tough, tough things. We're more open and I've become more

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open and better communicating with my wife and just things seem to be pulling together.

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I so admire the humility with which you approach this of just instantly realizing that

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I have to help him. I have to change the way that I view myself, the way of your relationship,

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the way I'm viewing life and everything needs to change. Maybe not everything, but so many things

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have to change. And for you to just accept that reality and go with it, I'm sure that wasn't easy,

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but it's a really good example for any adoptive parent that something might come up and you're

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going to have to pivot almost immediately. Yeah. And something like suicidality, it doesn't give you

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too much choice in the matter. I guess I could have buried my head in the sand, but it just seems

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like it's like life or death. Okay, what do I have to do? And the universe or whoever answered and

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said, here are some people I'm going to throw in to your life. I got in touch with Heather through

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a friend of a friend of a friend. Just people get drawn into your life that you need at a certain

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time. And so I'm very grateful to all those people along the way. And yeah, just the more you fight

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against the reality of whatever is happening, the harder things go. And if you go, okay, my son is

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suicidal. That sucks. What is my role here? What do I do? What can I do? Do I have control over him

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killing himself? Absolutely not. There's nothing I can do. If he wants to kill himself, I have no

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power over that unless I'm standing right next to him and can yank some weapon out of his hands.

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So that leaves me. That leaves me. What can I do? What can I do to be

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warm and accepting safe place for him to come to? Because parents, if you are freaking out when your

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kids are suicidal, that does not help. You don't need to freak out because they're already freaked

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out. So it takes so much work. And it's a daily practice. Honestly, I'm still working on this to

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stay calm no matter what your kid brings you. Say, oh, you're feeling suicidal today.

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What do you need? How can I help you? Do you want to just talk about it? Do you want me to just sit

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here and listen? Do you need me to get help? Do you need you want to go out for a walk on beach?

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You know, and to be able to stay in that place and stand with your child or somebody else that's

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suicidal, it's super, super hard. But that's what they need. They need to be listened to and

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acknowledged. And I want to just say that throwing them into an ER or throwing them into a hospital

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is not that effective. Yeah, I actually talk about that because that is a you it sounds like you

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could write a whole other book on that. I love that you can write a whole other book on that.

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I love that you are just so honest about what his experiences were like. And then in his own words,

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they're one of the accounts he describes. I think his his his most recent one, that he, he got really

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upset. And then a doctor came in and said things that made him just feel more shame. And he and

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and Joey's words, he said, I just wanted someone to say, we'll help you. That's, that's all he's

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wanting. And so what you're describing in that conversation with him when he's describing any

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suicidal ideation he's having that day, and your response being, how can I help you is, I just, I

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can imagine that just being a healing thing to hear from his mom that I'm here for you, I will help

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you. And you just want more people to respond to him that way, I would imagine. Yes, that's what

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they need. That's what that suicidal part needs. And if a person that is suicidal can even develop

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that within themselves, oh, I hear you suicidal part, what I hear you're, you're loud, and you're

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like a bright blinking light, what do I need to do? That that is where the healing comes. It's not

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throwing you into some sort of isolation, you know, some sort of jail like 5150, you know, psych

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hospital, where they just literally just throw you in there and just like, say, stay there, and they

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don't help you. It is is listening and that that it was a hospital chief that did that to my son.

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Well, yeah, it's in the book, but he punched a hole in the wall of the ER, which is not great.

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But he was he felt like a trapped animal because of the way they treated him. And he was in there

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for suicidal ideation, you would think that they would be gentle, and patient and, and compassionate

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with a person like that. But no, this hospital chief came and said, I know kids like you, I know

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you're just looking for attention. And, and part of me is like, yeah, you know what he is looking

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for attention. He's looking for somebody to say, what can we do for you? You obviously are very

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hurting. Is that such a horrible thing? Is that the end of the world for somebody to be seeking

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attention? But the way that he said that, and at the time my son was restrained, which is probably

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a really, really, really good thing. But that completely traumatized my son, like, it would

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have been better for me never to have taken him to that ER, because it made it way worse. So I'm not

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going to take him to the ER again. Yeah. And in the place of that, because I think any parent who's

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maybe experiencing this for the first time, that's the only place you know where to go. I know.

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That's where they tell you to go. Yeah. What I would do now, what I would do now, I have called

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988, which in the US is the new number to call for mental health crises. 988 is great. Every time I've

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called, they've been extremely compassionate. They don't call the cops on you. They don't say,

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run to the hospital right now. They know how to deescalate things. So call 988. They're very good.

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And it's better than calling 911, because 911 people come with guns, and we do not want guns

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anywhere near a suicidal person. So my son has almost attempted suicide by cop before. Are you

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familiar with that? What that means? Yes, but describe it for anyone who's listening that might

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not know. It's when a person goes after a cop's gun, and you know, they don't like that. And then

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they might shoot you. So it's kind of a way to kill yourself by, you know, threatening a cop or by

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trying to grab their, their weapon. So it's terrifying. So I don't want any guns near anything

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when he's feeling like that. So 988, no guns, they're like, super trained in, you know, crisis

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intervention. And so they'll, they'll calm you down. And they can send out people that are trained,

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like social worker type people without guns. So I would call 988. But mostly what I would do now if

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my son was suicidal, like if I call him and said, what's your SI? And he would say eight, I'd be

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like, I'm coming right down. And I would sit with him, I would take him probably out for a walk, do

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something outdoors, something with some exercise in there, some movement. And he would come down

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and I would not leave him alone until I was sure he was stable again. And I would just talk, we

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would just talk, maybe eat, sometimes he gets really off deregulated, dysregulated when he doesn't

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eat, or when he doesn't sleep, you know, kids don't do those real basic things. And it can get you

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kind of kind of wacko. So I would make sure those basic needs are met and just sit with him until

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he was stable. And going back to something you said earlier about the people that you found that had

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supported you, did you feel like you had that support system already? Or did you have to start

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vocalizing everything that was happening to friends? And then people got connected with you?

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Like, how did you go about creating this support system for yourself? Yeah, I did not have a support

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system at all. I was super clueless about everything. I was just working and parenting,

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working parenting, I was just doing things kind of the grind, you know, that everybody does. And so

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no, I had to collect all these people. And it was tricky, because when your son tries to kill

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himself, and then you figure out he's been using drugs, a lot of your friends like disappear,

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especially friends with teenagers, they're like, Oh, hell no. I don't want this to be contagious,

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which I can't do with this. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. People are scared of us. Honestly, I probably

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would be too. I don't blame them at all. I'm not judging them. But it's a lot. It's a lot to take

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care of and to handle. So but it is not contagious. I just have to say. But, but no, I had to kind of

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reach out and, and, you know, I just dug into the internet and asked people for help. And like, just,

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I don't know the people, the right people just dropped into my life. I think that the universe

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helped a lot. And you just said, Here you go. Here are some guides, do what they say. And

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at a certain point, you have to just say, I have no idea. I have no idea. Tell me, tell me what to

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do. And then luckily, some, some really beautiful people came and helped me out.

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And the compassion that's required of you to, to be with Joey in these moments. Do you feel like you

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were already that kind of person that could be present and compassionate and understanding?

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Or did it take a lot of work to get to the point where you are now?

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That's a good question. I would like to think I was. But I, I was not real great at handling

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emergencies or high intensity situations. I'm kind of a sensitive person that I,

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I tell my family, I'm a flower. I can't watch horror movies or, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm very sensitive.

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And so it's been a very big journey, but I've come a long way since, you know, six years ago.

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But yeah, at first I was flipping out and just like, Oh my God. And what I do, and it's a flight

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response. If you know, fight and flight, all those different trauma response flight response

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is not just leaving. It is getting super busy. It is kind of intellectualizing things. It's leaving

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your stressful situation and replacing with something else. And so that's, that's what I did.

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I was like, what can I do? Let's make a chart. Let's make a list. We're going to call all these

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people. What can I control in this situation? I was very much a control

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person. And I was like, don't worry. Mama's got this. I'm going to get you the right expert.

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I'll find you the right treatment center. I'll find you the blah, blah, blah. And you know,

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I guess that was better than nothing. And better than just saying, we'll go figure out yourself.

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I mean, I guess it could have been worse, but it, it just amped up the whole situation.

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It didn't help him feel more heard or understood. It helped. It made him feel like a project,

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a broken person. And he's not broken. He's, he's responding exactly how a person would respond

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with the amount of trauma that he endured in his, especially very young life. It, it sort of makes

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a lot of sense. So it helped a lot when I was able to calm my own system down and get myself more

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regulated and come at it with a calmer, a calmer situation.

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That's really great. And the, another thing about the book that we haven't mentioned is that in

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addition to talking about your experience and Joey's experience is that you include

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contributions from 14, is it people who have, who are adoptees who've struggled with suicidal

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ideation or their birth parents are connected to this topic in some way. And they've contributed

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essays and poems. And I love that you did that. That is such a creative way to create a,

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a sense of community and not just you telling your story and this is it now, good luck,

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but for people to connect with some artful expression of what they've gone through to

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lessen that feeling of isolation. It's, it's, it's almost like you're saying,

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if this is happening, you need to talk about it. You need to connect with people who have experienced

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it and you can find healing there.

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Yes. Oh, I feel so seen. Thank you so much for figuring out what we were trying to do there.

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Yes. We wanted to elevate more adoptive voices. That was one big push for that. And so I think

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11 of them are adopted people. And then there are three birth parents in there. Two of them lost

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their child to suicide after reunions. And so that's a really good point. And I think

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that's a good point. And then there is a second child who is in the union, which is just

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devastating. And then there is an adoptive parent in there besides me that has, she

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unfortunately also lost her child to suicide. So all of those voices combine and create this tapestry

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of pain and healing and hope and community. And we're continuing because I am bringing them

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together. And we have a monthly conversations about adoption and suicidality that we're hosting.

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We just had one on Sunday and it was the most beautiful. We had nine of us, three birth

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parents, three adoptive parents, and I think five or six of them are adoptees because some of them

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are more than one thing. And so we had all the sides and just witnessing an adoptive parent who

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lost a child talking to a birth parent that lost a child and the adoptees are sitting there watching

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this and just the alchemy that is happening and the healing that's happening in these rooms is

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really profound. It's beyond anything I ever imagined would happen. And this is where healing

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is not in a hospital room. It's not in some sort of like a medical system. It is talking with other

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people that get it. I've heard a quote said, I can't remember who exactly it is, but that

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healing doesn't happen in isolation. Healing is an act of communion. And that just what you're

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describing, for you to feel that way and for the participants to feel that happening together,

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you can't do it alone. It's too big. Yeah. Yep. Definitely. Yeah. It's beautiful.

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What words of encouragement, just to close things out, would you offer to an adoptive parent that is

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trying to support their child who's going through this? I guess we can start there.

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Okay. For adoptive parents, I would say

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to adoptive parents, I would say how important it is to do our own work.

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We, you know, it's great when adoptive parents realize that there is adoption trauma

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and that their kids might be having some problems. That's great. But let's do our own work. Like,

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let's not ask our kids to do anything that we're not willing to do ourselves. I'm trying to reduce

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using my stupid phone. Super hooked on my phone, scrolling and scrolling and scrolling.

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And, you know, I'm wishing my son would quit cannabis. Well,

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how would I feel if someone took away my phone right now? I would be flipping out. So we can't

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ask our kids to do anything that we're not willing to do ourselves. And if we can do it first,

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whatever that is, whether it's going to therapy, whether it's getting into a meditation practice,

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whether it's whatever, if we can do that first and show our kids that even as adults, even as,

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you know, super grown up people, we can still work on things that shows our kids what's possible and

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that we are not above them. We are not, you know, we are in it with them, willing to do whatever

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we're asking them to do. And how about a message for like, if, if Joey could really internalize

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one message from you and other kids and young adults like Joey, what what's your message to them?

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Hmm, I would say to Joey or to any adoptee, I see you, I'm trying to understand as deeply as I

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possibly can. I see the, the pain that is clear. And I want to be as helpful as I possibly can.

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Well, I really feel like you have done that. You've created a beautiful book and not just a book,

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but a community of what what's the best place for people to find out all the many different things

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that you're doing and keep in touch with you. Thank you so much. Yeah, our website is

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unravelingadoption.com that has everything, including the third section of the book is a

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giant list of resources. And I've included that on our website for free. So you don't even have to

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buy the book. If you want to read more or find a crisis numbers to call, or there's a ton of podcasts

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and essays about adoption, suicidality that are in the back of that book and all the resources. So

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that's on our website too. You can find out about our events, our conversations, which are monthly

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discussion circles about adoption, suicidality, our podcast, you can find out about that on our

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website, our podcast, who's on there. Just unravelingadoption.com. Amazing. Well, Beth,

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it's been such a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for everything that you have done to bring

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light to this topic. Thank you, Alicia. Thank you very much for highlighting the book and for

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bringing me on. I very much appreciate it. I hope it helps a lot of people.

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Thank you so much to Beth and also thank you to Joey for your willingness to share your story

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experiences to strengthen other adoptive families and to help us learn and hopefully

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become better equipped to handle challenges, mental health crises, and to better support

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and help each other. I just want to reiterate, and Beth said this in the episode, but not long

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ago in the United States, there was a new phone number developed 988 that you can call if you are

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struggling with mental health or if a loved one that you're with is struggling with mental health.

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Like she talked about going to the emergency room may be helpful, but in the case that she

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experienced and others that were aware of it might not always be the right decision. So please

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remember that. Yeah, so grateful for the resources that are available. So grateful for Beth sharing

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her experience. We also wanted to share a couple of quick announcements. So on the podcast before

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we've talked about the First Families Project, it's a research project where researchers from

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two universities are interviewing birth parents from across the United States who have placed a

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child for adoption since about 1990 and there's compensation for interviews and everything's

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confidential. Of course, if you're interested in that research, then please visit on Instagram at

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first underscore families underscore project and we partner with them on some of our posts on

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Instagram. We will share links for them on our Instagram stories this week too. So if you are

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someone you know might be interested in participating in that research, we highly encourage that. It's

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a really great project that's really focused on hearing authentic genuine experiences from

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any birth families who are willing to share. We also want to thank Alicia Gallagher for her help

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with this episode. She has been so instrumental and helpful with our podcast. She volunteered with us

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for the last year and was just so wonderful to work with and she is doing other awesome projects

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now so we just wanted to really let her know how much we appreciate her. At the podcast, a lot of

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the work that we do is volunteer based. We don't make money off of this. It's really a passion

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project and so if you are enjoying the podcast and want to help support us, the way to do that is

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really through buying the openness guide for adoptive parents. It's available online if you

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go to openadoptionproject.org. You can find that there and all proceeds from the guide go right back

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into the podcast, paying our podcast fees, helping us stay on the air. One more thing that you could

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do to support the podcast is to share it or at least like it on whatever platform you're on.

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Give us a rating, write a comment, share it with people that might help. The more comments that

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we get, the more ratings that we get, the more hopefully good ratings right? Yeah, the more that

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it will show up in searches. So if you haven't yet, please go ahead and give us a lifestyle review.

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Like mama always said, if you can't say something nice, don't say it at all. Right? I mean, that's

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maybe not always lived. But we appreciate your help with that too. Yeah, we are almost to our

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four year anniversary on the podcast, which is so exciting. Yep. We love being here. We love having

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these conversations and learning with you. Thanks for being here so much.