Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 119. We're the Nelsons. I'm Lanette.
And I'm Shaun. And in today's episode, we talk with Beth Syverson, who is an adoptive mother
and an author. And in this episode, we are going to be talking about suicidal ideation and suicide.
So if that's triggering for you, you may want to choose to stop listening to this episode now.
And Beth will talk about this in the episode, but in 2019, her adopted son Joey was hospitalized
with a mental health crisis, really. And while there, Beth discovered that he had been using
cannabis, some psychedelics, and more. This episode talks about that experience and what she has
learned as an adoptive mother to help Joey to cope with trauma that's connected to his adoption.
He was adopted when he was seven months old from Japan. And in this episode, we are sharing an
interview between Alicia Gallagher and Beth. Alicia has been a volunteer with the Open Adoption Project,
and we are so grateful for her and the time she spent talking to Beth and gaining this really
powerful information for us. Hey, we're here with Beth Syverson, the author of Adoption and
Suicide. Beth, I am seriously so excited to talk to you. This is such an important topic, and you
have written about it so beautifully, really. Oh, thank you. Thank you for letting me on here
and for being willing to talk about this tough topic. I really appreciate it. Yes, of course.
And I just, to start off, I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about your story for those
who have not read the book. Tell us about Joey, because as I was reading through it, it seemed like
you, I wonder if you divide your life into a few parts. One of them is before Joey started
struggling with suicidal ideation and after, and just the dramatic way that your life changed. So
I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about the before, and then we can talk about the
during and after. Yeah, that's a very good observation. Yeah, my life does kind of start
and stop on February 7, 2019, when he had his first crisis. But yeah, before that, so I adopted him
with his adoptive father, who I later divorced, but we adopted him from Japan as an infant.
And he was the most cute and cuddly and happy baby. And we just thought we won the jackpot. Well,
I still do think we won the jackpot with him. He is really amazing. But he was just a vibrant, hyper,
but in a good way, like just like a live child. Just he was a great athlete. He was a musician.
He is I shouldn't be talking about in the past, but his childhood was just, from my perspective,
he was an amazing kid. And we were so proud of him. And we thought everything was was just good
to go. We thought we thought he was fine. And turns out he really, really was not fine for quite a
long time. But I was super naive about adoption. I didn't know. I didn't know about adoption trauma,
or about relinquishment trauma, or about any sort of attachment issues. I just, I didn't know
anything. They didn't tell us anything. In Japan, like literally, they didn't speak English,
the people that we adopted him from. And they weren't about to give us like a handbook or some
sort of manual. I mean, there really isn't one that exists anyway. But so I was naive. I wish I
knew a whole lot of things, but I didn't. So now, that's one of the reasons I'm out, you know,
with the podcast and with the book and trying to help other adoptive parents and families and
teachers and therapists and people understand adoptions complexities better because man,
I wish I would have known. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's what I appreciate so much about your
book is that you don't by any means paint yourself as the hero that I knew everything,
and we did everything we could and yet he still struggles, but the honesty that you're bringing,
I think opens the door for a lot of other adoptive parents to realize that there is a
lifelong education that they have to engage in. Yep, every day I'm still learning. I still am
paying attention as closely as possible to other adult adoptees that are willing to talk about
their path and their struggles and their healing. Yeah, there's so much and, you know, we parents
like to be right and we like to make our kids the ones that are, you know, a mess and can you please
just fix my kid and that would be sure nice. But it's a family problem when you have someone that's
suicidal. It's not that person's problem in some sort of isolated bubble. It's a family problem.
It's a systems problem, even like a cultural problem like it's it involves everyone. So the
the message of the book, I hope one of the messages is that all of us need to do our work and
especially adoptive parents. I think we have an extra obligation to do our work because we have
taken on this child that came to us with trauma, no matter what. Yes, exactly. And can you tell us
about that first suicide attempt? You were with Joey, just take us through that story. Yeah, so
he was 15 years old. I got a call from his dad saying, Beth, Joey's okay. But something really
bad happened and he tried to unalive himself at his dad's house. I won't go into the details about
that. Just because I don't want to trigger other people. But I had to run down there. I know, like
obviously drop everything, run down there and try to navigate this mental health system that our
country has, which is not great. And it really has no idea what to do with teenagers and really,
really has no idea what to do with adopted people that never even came up as a question. No one ever
even asked if, you know, no one asks on any sort of intake form, do you have attachment issues? Do
you have any relinquishment in your childhood? In fact, there have been many therapists and
psychiatrists along the way that have said, oh, his adoption, I have nothing to do with it. He was a
baby. It's fine. So, and I was clueless too at the time. So I'm just like, oh my God, trying to save
my kid's life. And I was freaked out. And I thought, okay, all right, we'll get him in this hospital.
I guess he'll stay there for several days. I don't know how this works, but they'll fix him. They'll
take care of it and he'll come out and he'll be fine. And while he was staying in the hospital
that first couple of days, we found out, you know, they do blood work and we found out that he had
cannabis in his system and alcohol and psychedelics. And I was like, what? I had no idea. My kid was
using anything. It turns out his dad had been providing him with cannabis and money for whatever
he wanted, all he wanted since he was 13. So that was really, really bad news, really, really bad
news. And I was just in a state of shock and dismay. And I thought, and I thought that they'll
think they'll fix it. He'll spend, you know, 10 days in the hospital and he'll come home and he
won't be needing those drugs anymore because they'll fix whatever was causing that. And we'll be good
to go. You know, I was like, dodge that bullet, but oh goodness, I was so, so wrong about that. So
he's 20 now, almost 21 and still struggling with cannabis, particularly if anyone tries to tell
you that cannabis is not addictive, that is who, for some people, it is extremely addictive,
especially at the rates that the kids are using it now in the dabbing and the high, high percentages
of THC that's in the stuff that the kids are using nowadays. And we're in Southern California and they
will deliver it to your house. And it's like super everywhere. Every strip mall on every corner has a
weed shop and they're happy to serve minors and you know, they're not supposed to, but so it's been
a really, really difficult environment for him. And just, just, he's just been on the struggle bus
and I have to, you know, I've been trying to, like I said, on our podcast, I'm walking along beside
him while working on my own personal growth and healing. And that's, it's been quite a journey.
And I'm literally super grateful for it, terrifying as it has been, it has pushed both of us and my
whole family forward and learning and understanding more deeply what's going on.
That's such an intense way to come to realize the struggles that he had been having, because it
sounds like there was a lot of stuff going on underneath the surface that he might not have been
expressing or because of like the lack of education that you had experienced, you weren't
going to. So what were, looking back, what were some of those red flags, if there were, that
with the knowledge you have now would have been more alarming at the time?
Yeah, certainly I missed red flags and he was, he is my only child and so I didn't have anyone to
compare it to. And I thought, I guess this is adolescence. He's kind of sullen, isolating,
he spent a lot of time in his bedroom. I thought he was just masturbating all the time. Maybe he
was doing that too, but you know, it turns out he was, you know, using LSD in his bedroom all by
himself and which is extremely dangerous. And, and I don't know if you know what DMT is. DMT is
another psychedelic and it's extremely fast acting and strong. It's like, because LSD like is an all
day kind of thing. You're like, whoo, for like eight hours. Well, DMT, you go up and down in like
20 minutes, but it's very volatile and can make people do kind of crazy stuff. So it's dangerous
to do by yourself for sure. And without, you know, a guide or without someone helping, he was not
doing it in some sort of spiritual, you know, personal growth mode. He was like trying to
literally get out of his own mind because his mind was so disturbed and upset, right? Because of
adoption trauma and stuff, life. So, so the isolation, you know, his grades dropped, he wasn't
playing as well in baseball, you know, and along with all of this, he was getting bullied badly,
but we didn't know that either. And just the, he, he just shut down. Like anytime I drove him to
school, which took a 45 minute, it was a 45 minute drive, he would just sleep the whole time.
So he would just like go into his cave. And it turns out he, like many adoptees, like many of us,
he was a people pleaser. He doesn't want us to be upset. He doesn't want to get in trouble. And so
he just tried to put a mask on and just pretend everything is fine as things were kind of falling
apart around him. And then at a certain point, he's like, I can't do this anymore. And then the
suicide attempts happened. And then, then here we are. Well, the, the drug use that you're describing
it, he's looking for an escape in the book. I love that you include excerpts from him in the book.
You hear directly what his experience was like. And there are a couple of things that stood out
to me that he describes it as nothing was as important as stopping the feeling that I was
feeling in the moment. I just wanted peace. And so I, that's just such a crucial part of this, that
it's not that, that an adoptee that's struggling with this doesn't want to be here. They just don't
know how to get away from the discomfort. That's right. We talk about the suicidal part in the book
and in the work I do, a lot of us have a suicidal part and it's, we, I believe, and if you know
anything about parts work or internal family systems, there's no bad parts. All of our parts
are trying to help. Like in the movie Inside Out, it's kind of like that. Like all of those
characters in our brains are all trying to help in our own way, in their own way. And so I think
that's the thing about the suicide part, is that we're all trying to help in our own way, in their
own way. So that suicidal part was like, oh man, but you are in so much pain. Let me help you out
with that. And, you know, it didn't want to kill all of him, like to kill him, but it wanted to
kill the pain and get rid of the pain and kind of like put him on high alert, dude, something has
happened. So thank goodness his suicide attempts and he's had, oh God, probably eight or 10 of them
along the way. None of them have been complete, thank goodness. And, you know, he just keeps
going day after day after day, which I admire him greatly for. And I'm, I should have said this
towards the beginning, but I guess obviously, because he co-wrote the book with me, he wants
into the world and he, I told him I was doing this podcast and he said, go mom, just go do it
and share a story. So I want everyone to know I'm not telling his story without his permission and
his blessing. And if he was in, you know, more stable place, he probably would be here with me
right now. Maybe someday he will. Yeah. And I'm so hopeful that that will happen because
it's the collaboration that you two have is, I mean, it takes away the shame that can just
double down on those feelings of, you feel guilt and shame for wanting to not be here. And then
it just makes it worse. You withdraw even more and more. And so to just put, shed light on it is,
it is so healing for so many people that are going to be able to hear this and read your book.
Oh, I hope so. That's our deep, deep hope is that it helps a lot of people. Thank you.
So after you learned kind of baptism by fire, really like now I have a child in crisis. I need
to learn everything I can about what he's experiencing, what he has been experiencing
and not verbalizing. What have you since learned? What have you been able to do that you felt like
has helped him in this experience that he's been having? Yeah. An adoptee acquaintance of mine,
you know, sent me to the Primal Wound, which is kind of a book that a lot of people have kind of
discovered adoption trauma through. Now I think I recommend a book called Adoption Unfiltered.
It's even, you know, it's more updated. The Primal Wound by Nancy Verrier is, you know,
over 20 years old. And so this new book called Adoption Unfiltered is an adoptee, a birth parent
and an adoptive parent together. And they have a lot of adoptive voices in there. And I think it's
even better and more up to date. But so I just started digging in. I read the Adoption, the
Primal Wound. I got an adoption therapist for both Joey and me. I watched a wonderful film called
Reckoning with the Primal Wound by Rebecca Autumn Sansom. And things like that. Listen to the podcast
Adopties On has been an amazing resource with Haley Radke. And, you know, just kind of like diving
deep into adoption trauma, like, oh, my gosh, what did I not know? So it's been very helpful. And I
also for the first year ran Joey to every person I could find that would do anything to help him,
you know, psychiatrists, adoption therapists, gurus. I was like, whatever, if you can help my son,
here you go. And that made us both kind of crazy, you know, running him around trying to fix him,
like, please fix my son. And so at a certain point, I got a life coach who specialized in
helping parents with addiction, with children that have addiction. Her name is Heather Ross.
She's amazing. And she helped us greatly. She helped my wife and I to turn the spotlight off
of Joey, which is super uncomfortable for him, and turn it on ourselves and go, okay, what's going on
with us? How can we get our ourselves as parents more regulated and calmer, so Joey can have a safe
place to land. And so we can, you know, provide some more stability instead of us all running
around like chickens with our heads cut off, you know. That is a very interesting point you bring
up because it sounds counterintuitive, I'm sure, to a lot of adoptive parents and a lot of parents,
period, that because especially when your child is in crisis, it would make sense, you would think,
to make it all about them. My needs come second. Whatever you need right now is the most important
thing. So, and even saying that out loud, it doesn't sound quite right. So what, so tell me
a little bit more about what that exploration has been like for you and your wife. Yeah, well,
it's a cultural expectation of parenting. You sacrifice yourself, you sit on the baseball
sidelines, you know, five nights a week, and, you know, you do whatever you need to do for your kid,
and you just lay yourself down. And that's not great. Not a great cultural narrative. So
more about, you know, that when you get on an airplane, they say, you know, if the oxygen masks
come down, use it on yourself first, and then help your kid because if you faint because you can't
breathe, then you're really no good to help your kid. So you've got to maintain your own composure
first. So regulate yourself first. So that was a big shift for us. But it turned our family's
ship around quite rapidly, actually. And it's, it's been, it's still we're still struggling.
I don't think this struggle will ever end. Honestly, I think it'll be something that is,
you know, does any struggle ever end really, we just kind of learn to deal with it better. And
I really hope that Joey will find some more stability. But I don't think we'll ever say,
Oh, glad we got through that one. I think this is going to be a lifetime of learning and growing
for all of us. This adoption thing is not just a one thing that you did. At one certain point,
it is a lifetime of learning and surrender and growing. And what are things that you
do now? How is your routine different? How is your self care different? And how have you noticed that
impacts the way that you support Joey? Oh, thank you. Good question. It is radically different.
So I do a whole bunch of things to keep myself regulated. I meditate every day. I've been working
on mindfulness, just as in general, like staying more present in my own emotions, kind of being
able to watch myself from above, like, Oh, you're doing that thing again, aren't you? God bless you.
It's self compassion, but oh, there you go again. That kind of thing mindfulness. I picked up drumming.
I do taiko drumming, which is a Japanese art form. I wanted to do it with Joey because I was trying to
connect with his heritage. I'm white in case you're just listening and don't look at my picture.
I'm white. He's Japanese. And I thought, Oh, we can do it together. And when you do something as a mom
of a teenager, that thing is no longer cool. So sadly, he doesn't do it with me, but I enjoy it
greatly. It gets a lot of energy out and it's fun. And it's a nice kind of a hobby for me, but it's
very therapeutic at the same time. And, oh, I am, I've been working, you know, I go to therapy,
I've done EMDR, I've done brain spotting, I've done internal family systems work, like going into
my own stuff. I'm not talking about Joey in those sessions. I'm talking about my own stuff,
my childhood stuff that's been pulling up because of what's happening with Joey and just
because of life. So it's extensive and it's never going to end either. This journey that we're on,
it's intense and it's beautiful. It is Joey and I, despite all of our struggles, he and I
are closer than ever. He's able to tell me all sorts of stuff. I ask him at least weekly,
what's your SI today, as in suicidal ideation, like on a scale of one to 10, how suicidal are
you today? And he just shoots me a number and usually I just say, oh, okay. Usually it's like
two or three and it's almost never zero. Sometimes it's a zero, but it's almost always two or three.
And then sometimes it goes way up, but it hasn't for a long time. So anyway, he and I are able to
talk about things deeply, really tough, tough things. We're more open and I've become more
open and better communicating with my wife and just things seem to be pulling together.
I so admire the humility with which you approach this of just instantly realizing that
I have to help him. I have to change the way that I view myself, the way of your relationship,
the way I'm viewing life and everything needs to change. Maybe not everything, but so many things
have to change. And for you to just accept that reality and go with it, I'm sure that wasn't easy,
but it's a really good example for any adoptive parent that something might come up and you're
going to have to pivot almost immediately. Yeah. And something like suicidality, it doesn't give you
too much choice in the matter. I guess I could have buried my head in the sand, but it just seems
like it's like life or death. Okay, what do I have to do? And the universe or whoever answered and
said, here are some people I'm going to throw in to your life. I got in touch with Heather through
a friend of a friend of a friend. Just people get drawn into your life that you need at a certain
time. And so I'm very grateful to all those people along the way. And yeah, just the more you fight
against the reality of whatever is happening, the harder things go. And if you go, okay, my son is
suicidal. That sucks. What is my role here? What do I do? What can I do? Do I have control over him
killing himself? Absolutely not. There's nothing I can do. If he wants to kill himself, I have no
power over that unless I'm standing right next to him and can yank some weapon out of his hands.
So that leaves me. That leaves me. What can I do? What can I do to be
warm and accepting safe place for him to come to? Because parents, if you are freaking out when your
kids are suicidal, that does not help. You don't need to freak out because they're already freaked
out. So it takes so much work. And it's a daily practice. Honestly, I'm still working on this to
stay calm no matter what your kid brings you. Say, oh, you're feeling suicidal today.
What do you need? How can I help you? Do you want to just talk about it? Do you want me to just sit
here and listen? Do you need me to get help? Do you need you want to go out for a walk on beach?
You know, and to be able to stay in that place and stand with your child or somebody else that's
suicidal, it's super, super hard. But that's what they need. They need to be listened to and
acknowledged. And I want to just say that throwing them into an ER or throwing them into a hospital
is not that effective. Yeah, I actually talk about that because that is a you it sounds like you
could write a whole other book on that. I love that you can write a whole other book on that.
I love that you are just so honest about what his experiences were like. And then in his own words,
they're one of the accounts he describes. I think his his his most recent one, that he, he got really
upset. And then a doctor came in and said things that made him just feel more shame. And he and
and Joey's words, he said, I just wanted someone to say, we'll help you. That's, that's all he's
wanting. And so what you're describing in that conversation with him when he's describing any
suicidal ideation he's having that day, and your response being, how can I help you is, I just, I
can imagine that just being a healing thing to hear from his mom that I'm here for you, I will help
you. And you just want more people to respond to him that way, I would imagine. Yes, that's what
they need. That's what that suicidal part needs. And if a person that is suicidal can even develop
that within themselves, oh, I hear you suicidal part, what I hear you're, you're loud, and you're
like a bright blinking light, what do I need to do? That that is where the healing comes. It's not
throwing you into some sort of isolation, you know, some sort of jail like 5150, you know, psych
hospital, where they just literally just throw you in there and just like, say, stay there, and they
don't help you. It is is listening and that that it was a hospital chief that did that to my son.
Well, yeah, it's in the book, but he punched a hole in the wall of the ER, which is not great.
But he was he felt like a trapped animal because of the way they treated him. And he was in there
for suicidal ideation, you would think that they would be gentle, and patient and, and compassionate
with a person like that. But no, this hospital chief came and said, I know kids like you, I know
you're just looking for attention. And, and part of me is like, yeah, you know what he is looking
for attention. He's looking for somebody to say, what can we do for you? You obviously are very
hurting. Is that such a horrible thing? Is that the end of the world for somebody to be seeking
attention? But the way that he said that, and at the time my son was restrained, which is probably
a really, really, really good thing. But that completely traumatized my son, like, it would
have been better for me never to have taken him to that ER, because it made it way worse. So I'm not
going to take him to the ER again. Yeah. And in the place of that, because I think any parent who's
maybe experiencing this for the first time, that's the only place you know where to go. I know.
That's where they tell you to go. Yeah. What I would do now, what I would do now, I have called
988, which in the US is the new number to call for mental health crises. 988 is great. Every time I've
called, they've been extremely compassionate. They don't call the cops on you. They don't say,
run to the hospital right now. They know how to deescalate things. So call 988. They're very good.
And it's better than calling 911, because 911 people come with guns, and we do not want guns
anywhere near a suicidal person. So my son has almost attempted suicide by cop before. Are you
familiar with that? What that means? Yes, but describe it for anyone who's listening that might
not know. It's when a person goes after a cop's gun, and you know, they don't like that. And then
they might shoot you. So it's kind of a way to kill yourself by, you know, threatening a cop or by
trying to grab their, their weapon. So it's terrifying. So I don't want any guns near anything
when he's feeling like that. So 988, no guns, they're like, super trained in, you know, crisis
intervention. And so they'll, they'll calm you down. And they can send out people that are trained,
like social worker type people without guns. So I would call 988. But mostly what I would do now if
my son was suicidal, like if I call him and said, what's your SI? And he would say eight, I'd be
like, I'm coming right down. And I would sit with him, I would take him probably out for a walk, do
something outdoors, something with some exercise in there, some movement. And he would come down
and I would not leave him alone until I was sure he was stable again. And I would just talk, we
would just talk, maybe eat, sometimes he gets really off deregulated, dysregulated when he doesn't
eat, or when he doesn't sleep, you know, kids don't do those real basic things. And it can get you
kind of kind of wacko. So I would make sure those basic needs are met and just sit with him until
he was stable. And going back to something you said earlier about the people that you found that had
supported you, did you feel like you had that support system already? Or did you have to start
vocalizing everything that was happening to friends? And then people got connected with you?
Like, how did you go about creating this support system for yourself? Yeah, I did not have a support
system at all. I was super clueless about everything. I was just working and parenting,
working parenting, I was just doing things kind of the grind, you know, that everybody does. And so
no, I had to collect all these people. And it was tricky, because when your son tries to kill
himself, and then you figure out he's been using drugs, a lot of your friends like disappear,
especially friends with teenagers, they're like, Oh, hell no. I don't want this to be contagious,
which I can't do with this. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. People are scared of us. Honestly, I probably
would be too. I don't blame them at all. I'm not judging them. But it's a lot. It's a lot to take
care of and to handle. So but it is not contagious. I just have to say. But, but no, I had to kind of
reach out and, and, you know, I just dug into the internet and asked people for help. And like, just,
I don't know the people, the right people just dropped into my life. I think that the universe
helped a lot. And you just said, Here you go. Here are some guides, do what they say. And
at a certain point, you have to just say, I have no idea. I have no idea. Tell me, tell me what to
do. And then luckily, some, some really beautiful people came and helped me out.
And the compassion that's required of you to, to be with Joey in these moments. Do you feel like you
were already that kind of person that could be present and compassionate and understanding?
Or did it take a lot of work to get to the point where you are now?
That's a good question. I would like to think I was. But I, I was not real great at handling
emergencies or high intensity situations. I'm kind of a sensitive person that I,
I tell my family, I'm a flower. I can't watch horror movies or, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm very sensitive.
And so it's been a very big journey, but I've come a long way since, you know, six years ago.
But yeah, at first I was flipping out and just like, Oh my God. And what I do, and it's a flight
response. If you know, fight and flight, all those different trauma response flight response
is not just leaving. It is getting super busy. It is kind of intellectualizing things. It's leaving
your stressful situation and replacing with something else. And so that's, that's what I did.
I was like, what can I do? Let's make a chart. Let's make a list. We're going to call all these
people. What can I control in this situation? I was very much a control
person. And I was like, don't worry. Mama's got this. I'm going to get you the right expert.
I'll find you the right treatment center. I'll find you the blah, blah, blah. And you know,
I guess that was better than nothing. And better than just saying, we'll go figure out yourself.
I mean, I guess it could have been worse, but it, it just amped up the whole situation.
It didn't help him feel more heard or understood. It helped. It made him feel like a project,
a broken person. And he's not broken. He's, he's responding exactly how a person would respond
with the amount of trauma that he endured in his, especially very young life. It, it sort of makes
a lot of sense. So it helped a lot when I was able to calm my own system down and get myself more
regulated and come at it with a calmer, a calmer situation.
That's really great. And the, another thing about the book that we haven't mentioned is that in
addition to talking about your experience and Joey's experience is that you include
contributions from 14, is it people who have, who are adoptees who've struggled with suicidal
ideation or their birth parents are connected to this topic in some way. And they've contributed
essays and poems. And I love that you did that. That is such a creative way to create a,
a sense of community and not just you telling your story and this is it now, good luck,
but for people to connect with some artful expression of what they've gone through to
lessen that feeling of isolation. It's, it's, it's almost like you're saying,
if this is happening, you need to talk about it. You need to connect with people who have experienced
it and you can find healing there.
Yes. Oh, I feel so seen. Thank you so much for figuring out what we were trying to do there.
Yes. We wanted to elevate more adoptive voices. That was one big push for that. And so I think
11 of them are adopted people. And then there are three birth parents in there. Two of them lost
their child to suicide after reunions. And so that's a really good point. And I think
that's a good point. And then there is a second child who is in the union, which is just
devastating. And then there is an adoptive parent in there besides me that has, she
unfortunately also lost her child to suicide. So all of those voices combine and create this tapestry
of pain and healing and hope and community. And we're continuing because I am bringing them
together. And we have a monthly conversations about adoption and suicidality that we're hosting.
We just had one on Sunday and it was the most beautiful. We had nine of us, three birth
parents, three adoptive parents, and I think five or six of them are adoptees because some of them
are more than one thing. And so we had all the sides and just witnessing an adoptive parent who
lost a child talking to a birth parent that lost a child and the adoptees are sitting there watching
this and just the alchemy that is happening and the healing that's happening in these rooms is
really profound. It's beyond anything I ever imagined would happen. And this is where healing
is not in a hospital room. It's not in some sort of like a medical system. It is talking with other
people that get it. I've heard a quote said, I can't remember who exactly it is, but that
healing doesn't happen in isolation. Healing is an act of communion. And that just what you're
describing, for you to feel that way and for the participants to feel that happening together,
you can't do it alone. It's too big. Yeah. Yep. Definitely. Yeah. It's beautiful.
What words of encouragement, just to close things out, would you offer to an adoptive parent that is
trying to support their child who's going through this? I guess we can start there.
Okay. For adoptive parents, I would say
to adoptive parents, I would say how important it is to do our own work.
We, you know, it's great when adoptive parents realize that there is adoption trauma
and that their kids might be having some problems. That's great. But let's do our own work. Like,
let's not ask our kids to do anything that we're not willing to do ourselves. I'm trying to reduce
using my stupid phone. Super hooked on my phone, scrolling and scrolling and scrolling.
And, you know, I'm wishing my son would quit cannabis. Well,
how would I feel if someone took away my phone right now? I would be flipping out. So we can't
ask our kids to do anything that we're not willing to do ourselves. And if we can do it first,
whatever that is, whether it's going to therapy, whether it's getting into a meditation practice,
whether it's whatever, if we can do that first and show our kids that even as adults, even as,
you know, super grown up people, we can still work on things that shows our kids what's possible and
that we are not above them. We are not, you know, we are in it with them, willing to do whatever
we're asking them to do. And how about a message for like, if, if Joey could really internalize
one message from you and other kids and young adults like Joey, what what's your message to them?
Hmm, I would say to Joey or to any adoptee, I see you, I'm trying to understand as deeply as I
possibly can. I see the, the pain that is clear. And I want to be as helpful as I possibly can.
Well, I really feel like you have done that. You've created a beautiful book and not just a book,
but a community of what what's the best place for people to find out all the many different things
that you're doing and keep in touch with you. Thank you so much. Yeah, our website is
unravelingadoption.com that has everything, including the third section of the book is a
giant list of resources. And I've included that on our website for free. So you don't even have to
buy the book. If you want to read more or find a crisis numbers to call, or there's a ton of podcasts
and essays about adoption, suicidality that are in the back of that book and all the resources. So
that's on our website too. You can find out about our events, our conversations, which are monthly
discussion circles about adoption, suicidality, our podcast, you can find out about that on our
website, our podcast, who's on there. Just unravelingadoption.com. Amazing. Well, Beth,
it's been such a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for everything that you have done to bring
light to this topic. Thank you, Alicia. Thank you very much for highlighting the book and for
bringing me on. I very much appreciate it. I hope it helps a lot of people.
Thank you so much to Beth and also thank you to Joey for your willingness to share your story
experiences to strengthen other adoptive families and to help us learn and hopefully
become better equipped to handle challenges, mental health crises, and to better support
and help each other. I just want to reiterate, and Beth said this in the episode, but not long
ago in the United States, there was a new phone number developed 988 that you can call if you are
struggling with mental health or if a loved one that you're with is struggling with mental health.
Like she talked about going to the emergency room may be helpful, but in the case that she
experienced and others that were aware of it might not always be the right decision. So please
remember that. Yeah, so grateful for the resources that are available. So grateful for Beth sharing
her experience. We also wanted to share a couple of quick announcements. So on the podcast before
we've talked about the First Families Project, it's a research project where researchers from
two universities are interviewing birth parents from across the United States who have placed a
child for adoption since about 1990 and there's compensation for interviews and everything's
confidential. Of course, if you're interested in that research, then please visit on Instagram at
first underscore families underscore project and we partner with them on some of our posts on
Instagram. We will share links for them on our Instagram stories this week too. So if you are
someone you know might be interested in participating in that research, we highly encourage that. It's
a really great project that's really focused on hearing authentic genuine experiences from
any birth families who are willing to share. We also want to thank Alicia Gallagher for her help
with this episode. She has been so instrumental and helpful with our podcast. She volunteered with us
for the last year and was just so wonderful to work with and she is doing other awesome projects
now so we just wanted to really let her know how much we appreciate her. At the podcast, a lot of
the work that we do is volunteer based. We don't make money off of this. It's really a passion
project and so if you are enjoying the podcast and want to help support us, the way to do that is
really through buying the openness guide for adoptive parents. It's available online if you
go to openadoptionproject.org. You can find that there and all proceeds from the guide go right back
into the podcast, paying our podcast fees, helping us stay on the air. One more thing that you could
do to support the podcast is to share it or at least like it on whatever platform you're on.
Give us a rating, write a comment, share it with people that might help. The more comments that
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Like mama always said, if you can't say something nice, don't say it at all. Right? I mean, that's
maybe not always lived. But we appreciate your help with that too. Yeah, we are almost to our
four year anniversary on the podcast, which is so exciting. Yep. We love being here. We love having
these conversations and learning with you. Thanks for being here so much.