1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,040 Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. 2 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:04,040 This is episode 117. 3 00:00:04,380 --> 00:00:05,420 We are the Nelsons. 4 00:00:05,420 --> 00:00:06,420 I'm Shaun. 5 00:00:06,420 --> 00:00:07,420 And I'm Lanette. 6 00:00:07,420 --> 00:00:09,760 And today we're excited to have an episode 7 00:00:10,100 --> 00:00:13,380 with a birth mom, an adoptee and an adoptive mom, 8 00:00:13,380 --> 00:00:15,480 all from the same adoption relationship. 9 00:00:15,940 --> 00:00:17,940 We'll be hearing from Sarah Jane Schenck, 10 00:00:17,940 --> 00:00:20,140 who we heard from in a previous episode, 11 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:22,320 and she is a birth mom. 12 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,440 And we'll hear from her daughter Courtney, 13 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,620 as well as Courtney's adoptive mom, Jeanette. 14 00:00:27,540 --> 00:00:29,580 All right, well, we'll jump to that conversation now. 15 00:00:29,580 --> 00:00:32,000 And again, we're just so grateful for these three 16 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,000 sharing their perspective and their story. 17 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,000 We are here on the podcast with a special group. 18 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,300 We have three women here today. 19 00:00:43,300 --> 00:00:47,640 We have Courtney and Jeanette and Sarah Jane. 20 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:49,260 Sarah Jane is returning to the show. 21 00:00:49,260 --> 00:00:52,520 She's been on in the past and we're happy to have her back 22 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:54,520 and happy to welcome Jeanette and Courtney. 23 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:56,900 Can you guys tell us a bit about yourselves 24 00:00:56,900 --> 00:00:57,900 and how you're connected? 25 00:00:57,900 --> 00:01:02,280 Hey, I am Jeanette and I am an adoptive mom 26 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,440 of two beautiful girls, 27 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,860 and one of which we're talking about today. 28 00:01:06,860 --> 00:01:09,660 And so that's how we're connected is because of Courtney. 29 00:01:09,660 --> 00:01:11,000 Yeah, I'm Courtney. 30 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,000 I'm the adoptee, I guess you would say. 31 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:15,800 I'm a sophomore. No, I'm not. 32 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:17,920 I'm a junior in high school. 33 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,080 And yeah, that's me. 34 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:21,260 My name is Sarah Jane. 35 00:01:21,260 --> 00:01:23,760 I am a birth mother, birth mom here. 36 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:28,760 And we have a little baby here with us, 37 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:31,160 my little baby I just had. 38 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,200 And I have a two-year-old as well. 39 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,080 And yeah. 40 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,120 We're so happy to have each of you with us. 41 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,720 If you could say what your very favorite, 42 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,800 like can't live without top two things are each, 43 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:45,820 what would you say? 44 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:49,520 I'll go first since I'm putting you on the spot. 45 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:50,480 Okay. 46 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,960 I would probably say for me, chocolate. 47 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,680 I really get stressed every time the news is like, 48 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:57,920 there's a chocolate famine. 49 00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:59,560 It's gonna be expensive and scarce. 50 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:00,920 I'm like, oh my gosh, no. 51 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:03,120 Chocolate. 52 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,880 And I really love the BBC dramas, 53 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,200 especially like the Emma and Pride and Prejudice retellings. 54 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,120 I'm a little obsessed with those. 55 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,960 I would say probably Diet Dr. Pepper 56 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,880 and my kids. 57 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,240 I could not live without my kids. 58 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,120 I would probably say Diet Dr. Pepper as well. 59 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:31,000 Fake out to her and music were my family. 60 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,040 So I do like Diet Dr. Pepper, 61 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,400 but I'm more of a Diet Coke girl. 62 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:37,720 Diet Coke, Diet Pepsi. 63 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:39,000 I don't have a preference. 64 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:39,840 I like them both. 65 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,040 I feel like I have to say my kids now 66 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:44,840 because of tonight, which is so- 67 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,920 I feel so bad that I didn't say that. 68 00:02:48,920 --> 00:02:51,120 Well, I'm so happy to have you guys on the podcast. 69 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:52,920 Thank you so much for being here. 70 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:55,040 All right, so we're gonna start off 71 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,480 with a question for Courtney. 72 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,760 Courtney, how do you describe your relationship 73 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,640 with both your birth mom and your adoptive mom? 74 00:03:02,640 --> 00:03:05,000 Ooh, that is such a great question. 75 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,400 And I would say the two words that came to mind 76 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,000 when I first saw that question was open and loving. 77 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,880 I've always had such a great relationship 78 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:18,440 with both of them. 79 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,480 And it's just, they're both so amazing 80 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,400 and I love them both so much. 81 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,080 And I love how open it is. 82 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,640 I've always loved having Sarah Jane as a part of my life. 83 00:03:30,640 --> 00:03:35,640 And I feel like the relationships are different, 84 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:37,920 but in such a good way. 85 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,800 And I love them both for so many different reasons. 86 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,760 So yeah. 87 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:43,600 I love that. 88 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:44,880 Open and loving. 89 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:46,800 Those are great descriptors. 90 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:47,920 All right, so Sarah Jane, 91 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,960 how has your relationship with Courtney 92 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,000 and her family changed over time? 93 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:56,240 Kind of when I read that question, 94 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,880 I was kind of thinking like evolved and adapted. 95 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,920 Like I feel like we've evolved and adapted too. 96 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:05,240 So true. 97 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,760 To just the different phases of life 98 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,160 in this amazing relationship that we all share. 99 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:14,000 Awesome. 100 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,800 So what has that looked like or felt like? 101 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:21,960 Oh, it felt like it's progressed the way it's supposed to. 102 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:24,520 I don't know. 103 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:25,360 Does that make sense? 104 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,840 Like it felt very like, like I said, 105 00:04:28,840 --> 00:04:32,360 it's naturally progressed how it's needed to 106 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,400 and how we've kind of all needed it too, I think. 107 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:37,520 I love that. 108 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:38,360 All right. 109 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,440 What were your initial thoughts and feelings 110 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,080 about open adoption and how have they changed 111 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:44,320 over time or evolved? 112 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,280 Well, we started on this adoption journey 113 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:51,160 a little more than 20 years ago. 114 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:56,160 And at first, my thoughts and opinions were 115 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:01,000 I just want a baby and I want to be a normal mom. 116 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,600 And that was really hard for me to overcome. 117 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,040 And one of the ways that I was able to overcome that, 118 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:15,040 we had a birth mom who was living with us 119 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,960 for five months prior to her placement. 120 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,120 We were asked by LDS Family Services to house her 121 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,560 as she had chosen another family. 122 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:27,280 And it was quite difficult. 123 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,920 We had been in the game for about four years waiting 124 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,160 and to have her come to live with us 125 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,560 knowing she was choosing another family was hard. 126 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,160 But having a relationship with her for five months 127 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:49,600 gave me a different perspective on what a birth mom was. 128 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:55,640 And so I feel like having that experience was crucial 129 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,960 for me to have my mindset change 130 00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:06,360 for how an open adoption could be. 131 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,400 And then of course we had our first daughter 132 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:13,400 that we adopted and it just has, 133 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:14,880 I don't know how to say this. 134 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,280 It's been better in so many ways 135 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:26,000 than I had envisioned it when I was scared, 136 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:28,680 if that makes sense. 137 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:30,880 Absolutely. 138 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:32,760 There were a lot of fears. 139 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,160 And I think just going into this, 140 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:40,160 knowing they are also a mom and they also love their kid 141 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:44,960 with the mindset of also, 142 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,720 I don't know if I was in their shoes, 143 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,480 if I could do what they've chosen to do. 144 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,040 I don't know that I could do that. 145 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,480 And because of that, those two different mindsets, 146 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:02,480 it made it very easy for me to love my daughter's birthmothers 147 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,440 and also their families. 148 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:07,880 I love that. 149 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,720 Yeah, I think that it's really common for adoptive parents 150 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:14,040 to go in to adoption feeling scared 151 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:19,040 and wishing that they could have a normal experience, right? 152 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:19,880 Yeah. 153 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,440 I definitely relate to what you're saying of, 154 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,240 like that humanizing where you come to love 155 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,440 and respect these mothers and they become family 156 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,840 and it just changes it as that happens. 157 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,760 It's a beautiful thing. 158 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:36,640 Well, and I love that perspective. 159 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,520 I've never thought about that, 160 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,680 how you said that you thought about, 161 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,120 like if you were in my shoes and had, if you could do it. 162 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:47,960 I've never thought about that. 163 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:48,800 So that was, 164 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:50,640 it's beautiful to be there. 165 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,800 And it just changes when you're handed a baby, 166 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,880 it changes very quickly. 167 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:03,200 Your feelings and emotions towards this mom 168 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,000 who's sacrificing for you. 169 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,280 It's hard not to love them. 170 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:10,120 Yeah. 171 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,320 Well, and especially as for me as an adoptive mom, 172 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,600 as I see my kid's birth parents, 173 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,960 and my kids, it's just this affirmation of, 174 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,200 wow, I love you with all my heart 175 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,040 and I love your birth family with all my heart too 176 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:25,520 because I can see them in you 177 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,400 and like this goodness just radiates 178 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,040 and it's a beautiful thing to be able to see that connection. 179 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:31,880 Yes. 180 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:34,240 All right. 181 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,440 So Courtney, I have another question for you. 182 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,840 How has your understanding of your adoption story 183 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:40,200 evolved over time? 184 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:42,200 That's such a good one. 185 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:43,520 I think it's a good question. 186 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,400 That's such a good one. 187 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:47,680 Well, for me personally, 188 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:50,920 and our situation I would say is very unique, 189 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,080 but I've always known I was adopted. 190 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:56,040 It's never been a secret. 191 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,240 It's always been a very, 192 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,400 I've always told people, I've always been very proud of it. 193 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:02,960 And so I feel like for a long time, 194 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,760 it was just like, oh, this is just my life. 195 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:07,640 I've adopted, it's great. 196 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,640 Cause especially with both of these two 197 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,040 just being so great about it and so loving, 198 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:13,920 it just, it made it so easy. 199 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,320 And so it was never a thing that I was like, 200 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:17,480 didn't wanna talk about. 201 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:19,240 But one thing that was, 202 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,800 that Janette, my mom brought up was 203 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,960 when I first met Ryan, my birth father for the first time, 204 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,560 that was one of the times where it was really interesting. 205 00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:34,360 And it was very different 206 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,920 cause I'd always known Sarah Jane, 207 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,040 but meeting him was like, 208 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:40,760 it was different, but it was like a good thing. 209 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,280 And it just, it felt so natural. 210 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,280 And so I think because of our like situation, 211 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,560 everything has always just felt so loving 212 00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:51,840 and just so natural. 213 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,280 And so just, I feel like I've always had 214 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:55,360 a very good understanding. 215 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,600 And I think that's mainly due to it being an open adoption. 216 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:00,440 So yeah. 217 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:01,320 I love that. 218 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,320 Well, and I feel like that ties back to what you said earlier 219 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,320 about how you feel there's just so much openness 220 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,120 and love in these conversations. 221 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,280 I think that has to help too. 222 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:12,600 That's great. 223 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,440 Well, Ryan would love to hear that. 224 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:16,240 And he'll love it when he listens to this 225 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,920 because he has not been a part of this relationship 226 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:22,480 for all that time. 227 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,320 And so he's constantly like asking me like, 228 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,640 do you think that she thinks that this is weird? 229 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:29,480 Do you think that? 230 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,640 And I'm like, no, I don't, but it's good. 231 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:32,480 I know. 232 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:33,320 Yeah. 233 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,000 But he like, it's just so new to him. 234 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:38,320 It's just such a new experience. 235 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,680 So it's good to hear. 236 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:43,520 I love to hear you say that. 237 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,520 He wasn't a part of the entire evolving. 238 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:49,280 Kind of came in the middle of the game. 239 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,600 And so maybe he's still feeling a little trepidation 240 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,240 because we were just family. 241 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:56,040 Yeah. 242 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:57,320 Always just, yeah. 243 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,880 And maybe he just doesn't quite feel that 244 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,800 because he missed out on some of that evolution 245 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:04,640 of our relationship. 246 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:06,920 And I think like over time it'll come, 247 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:08,880 but I still think he's like, 248 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,480 but his biggest concern is always in you. 249 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:12,840 Like is Courtney okay? 250 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:14,400 Like do you think she's okay with this? 251 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:15,240 Like do you think? 252 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:16,720 And I'm like, yeah, because I know her. 253 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,160 And I'm like, yeah, why are you even asking that? 254 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,040 But with him. 255 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,320 And the thing is, honestly at this point, 256 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:24,680 it feels like he's always been there. 257 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:28,280 Honestly, like it just, it doesn't feel weird or anything. 258 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:30,720 So it's just such a great thing. 259 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:32,360 I love that so much. 260 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,640 All right, so I have another question for you. 261 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,840 What moments stand out as particularly meaningful 262 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,080 in your relationships with both your birth mom 263 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:41,640 and your adoptive mom? 264 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:45,200 There's so many. 265 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,280 I mean, I can't think of a single God moment. 266 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:50,520 They've all just been so good. 267 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:55,520 But I think growing up, getting to know her 268 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,200 and like she supported me through so many things. 269 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:03,280 Like she came to my piano recitals and my softball games 270 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,520 and she was just always there. 271 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,360 And so I think just having her there 272 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,400 and like knowing that she loved me 273 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,080 and not only that, but her showing it was just so special. 274 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,640 And I've always just felt so loved because of that. 275 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,000 And also all the different milestones 276 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,880 of her little two-year-old Theo, 277 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,160 that was really, really cool to get to be a part of. 278 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,320 And like being at her and Ryan's wedding, 279 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,280 that was a super cool experience. 280 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,760 And I just, there's just so many good ones. 281 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,600 And I think what a lot of people don't see 282 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,600 when they're thinking about adoption and they, 283 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,040 or even just open adoption, 284 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:51,040 is that getting to have the birth mother 285 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,560 as a part of your life is such a huge blessing. 286 00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:58,040 And I feel like some people might think of that as like, 287 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,520 oh, it's confusing or it's hard, 288 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,400 but it's always been a blessing to me. 289 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,920 So I just think it's, I think it's so cool. 290 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:06,760 And I love it. 291 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:07,800 I've loved having her in my life. 292 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:08,880 So. 293 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:09,720 I love that. 294 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,200 And do you feel like it has been confusing? 295 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,120 No, honestly, like as I've been thinking about doing this, 296 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,800 the main thing that keeps coming to mind is that like, 297 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,560 because it's been open, it's never been confusing 298 00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:24,320 and it's never been hard for me to grasp. 299 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,760 And I don't know if that's because the open option 300 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:28,920 or because these two are just amazing, 301 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,440 but I think it's just so cool. 302 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,360 I have always just felt like it's a blessing. 303 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,920 It's never been hard or confusing. 304 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,680 Cause I always know, and I've always known she loved me. 305 00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:42,040 So I think that's what's really cool about open adoption 306 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:46,120 is that a lot of those questions that I think come along 307 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,560 when people are talking about adoption 308 00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:51,160 or even people that I've talked to that are my age 309 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,320 that have been adopted, but it's closed. 310 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,200 They have so many questions and they don't understand. 311 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,040 And there's a lot of pain associated with that. 312 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:00,680 And so when I'm talking to them, like, wow, 313 00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:02,720 that's so different from what I felt 314 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:03,840 because I've always just seen it 315 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:05,920 as this wonderful, amazing thing. 316 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,280 And so it breaks my heart to see people 317 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:09,360 see it as something different. 318 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,120 So that's why I think it's so cool 319 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,760 that we're spreading the word about open adoption. 320 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:14,840 I love that. 321 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,080 Well, and something I've noticed as I've heard 322 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,360 both Sarah Jane and your mom talking 323 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,080 about your guys' relationships with each other, 324 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,840 they both focus so much on you 325 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:26,400 and how they can help you. 326 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,280 And we often talk on our podcast 327 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,160 about how we need to try to make adoptees 328 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,800 be the center of our efforts as parents, right? 329 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,560 As birth parents and adoptive parents, 330 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:36,920 keeping the adoptee at the center. 331 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,200 And so like, here's a great example of that, 332 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,320 especially as I hear Courtney speak, that's amazing. 333 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:43,160 Well, thank you. 334 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:44,720 They're awesome. 335 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:45,560 And you know what? 336 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,000 It's all because of Jeanette 337 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,800 because I wouldn't have been able to do all those things 338 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,960 that Courtney just talked about without Jeanette's, 339 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:58,160 what she started out by saying her decision 340 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,600 to go down the open adoption road. 341 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,600 And I wouldn't have been a mom without Sarah Jane. 342 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:05,200 So we just all needed each other. 343 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:06,280 Yeah. 344 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:07,960 Absolutely, yes. 345 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,280 So Sarah Jane, how do you hope that your relationship 346 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,000 with Courtney will continue to grow in the future? 347 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,520 I mean, I think that we've stayed on this trajectory path 348 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:24,520 and I just think that we're just part of each other's lives. 349 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:26,320 Like that's just what it is. 350 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,320 And I don't plan on ever not being that same way. 351 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,960 And me continuing to support her in those big milestones 352 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:38,960 and her continuing to be here for me and my family 353 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,200 and my kids and me being a part of her family, 354 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,360 just that whole aspect of it. 355 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,520 I feel like a lot of attitude about adoption 356 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:54,520 between birth mom, adoptee, adoptive mom 357 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,320 will come from how you speak about adoption. 358 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,600 And I feel like it's super important to address 359 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,640 that it's really how you speak about it 360 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,200 that will transform how you feel about it. 361 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,440 And not only that, but how you're, 362 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,720 your child feels about it, how the adoptee 363 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:17,800 would feel about it. 364 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,560 And Courtney keeps saying that she's always known. 365 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:26,560 Well, I've always been very proud of the fact 366 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,480 that my kids are adopted. 367 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:34,480 Cause to me that means they are loved twice as much 368 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,120 as anybody else. 369 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,840 And I think it's just super important 370 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,040 that you're trying to be a part of that. 371 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,640 It's super important that you're talking positively 372 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:47,200 when you're speaking about adoption. 373 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,600 If you are involved in that world, 374 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,440 you need to speak positively if you want your child 375 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,800 to have positive feelings about it. 376 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:57,360 So it's never been a secret 377 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,160 cause I've been proud to say I'm an adoptive mom. 378 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,920 I have five younger brothers, don't have any sisters. 379 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,520 And so I would often tell people adoption 380 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:10,640 was the best thing ever. 381 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,800 Cause I didn't just get two girls, I got two sisters. 382 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,280 And that's how I really feel. 383 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:19,880 They're my sisters. 384 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:21,640 We are all family. 385 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,480 And it's just really, really important to me 386 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,480 that if you are on this adoption path, 387 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,160 that you learn to speak positively about it 388 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,120 even on the hard days. 389 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:36,760 Cause there are hard days. 390 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,520 But as long as you're speaking positively, 391 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,160 then your child will feel that 392 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,640 and your relationship will thrive in that positivity. 393 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:50,320 I love that. 394 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,360 And that really resonates with me too, 395 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:55,560 as you speak about how your kids' birth moms feel 396 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:56,640 like your sisters, 397 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,520 but I mean, it's the best way I can describe it. 398 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,440 I feel like I have additional sisters 399 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:03,960 through my kids' adoptions. 400 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:08,280 It's amazing that love and that bond that happens. 401 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:09,400 Yeah. 402 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:10,240 Sarah-Jane, we're gonna say something. 403 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,520 I was just gonna say that I feel like 404 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,080 through this whole process, 405 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,080 the one thing that I've always told people 406 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:18,920 in defending over adoption, 407 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:20,440 cause people have criticized it, 408 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:25,240 is that how could having someone love her 409 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,560 as much as her parents love her in her life be bad? 410 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,200 Like how could that be a negative thing? 411 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,280 I think it really makes people think, 412 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,640 oh, I didn't really think about it that way. 413 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,200 So I love that you said that, Janette. 414 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,040 It's like you're not such a big part. 415 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,880 One thing that I, this is just kind of silly, 416 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,920 but one thing that Janette, my mom has always said, 417 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,120 is that you don't have a family tree, 418 00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:49,560 you have a family orchard. 419 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:50,520 Yes. 420 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:51,520 And I've always loved that. 421 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,760 And she's always just pointed out 422 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:55,520 the fact that being adopted just means 423 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,880 you have that many more people that love you. 424 00:18:57,880 --> 00:18:59,080 And I've always, 425 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:00,800 and because that's the way she's talked about it, 426 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,840 that's the way I've always thought of it. 427 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,880 So it's never ever been a bad thing. 428 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,840 It's always been like, oh, these people love me. 429 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,800 There's just more people that love me. 430 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,720 So I think, yeah, I think that's really cool. 431 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,640 I wish people could see that, 432 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,760 see like look at open adoption in that light, 433 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,880 more than, oh, like placing a baby for adoption. 434 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,120 It's like, it should be a good thing. 435 00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:27,040 It's, you know, it is a good thing 436 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,880 because it just shows that that many more people love you. 437 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,320 So yeah. 438 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:32,160 I love that. 439 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,440 My husband always says to our kids 440 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:35,680 that they don't have a family tree, 441 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,640 they have a family bush because it's just big 442 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:39,720 and goes everywhere. 443 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,960 I like the imagery of the orchard though. 444 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:44,840 That's a better imagery. 445 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:45,840 I like that. 446 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:46,680 Yeah. 447 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,000 There's multiple trees. 448 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,040 So it's an orchard. 449 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:51,000 Yeah. 450 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,000 I love it. 451 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,840 I would maybe say it's like an aspen orchard, right? 452 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,120 Where the roots all come together and support each other. 453 00:19:58,120 --> 00:19:59,320 Yeah. I love that. 454 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,080 All right. 455 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,240 So Jeanette, what advice would you give 456 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,560 to other adoptive parents who are considering open adoption 457 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,200 and might be feeling kind of nervous or concerned about that? 458 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,880 Through one of the required classes we took 459 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:18,720 through LDS Family Services, like I said, 20-ish years ago, 460 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:23,000 and they told us, never promise anything 461 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,880 that you will not be able to keep. 462 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,560 So don't make any promises that you don't intend to fulfill 463 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,760 because that will immediately cause problems. 464 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:39,440 And I remember when Sarah Jane had just had Courtney 465 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,480 and they're both still in the hospital 466 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,600 and we're talking about, well, where do we go from here? 467 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,560 And I just told her, the only thing that I can promise you 468 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,600 is that this isn't the last time you will see her. 469 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,280 I don't know what else to promise you, 470 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,520 but I know this won't be the last time you see her. 471 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:01,800 We'll figure it out. 472 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,360 And that's what we had to do 473 00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:09,600 because there was really nobody 20 years ago, 474 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,800 16 and a half years ago for Courtney 475 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,800 that really could help us navigate through open adoption. 476 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:22,280 And we stuck with what we liked at first, 477 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,200 birthdays and Christmas. 478 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,520 Well, Courtney's birthday is a little close to Christmas 479 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,960 and then we would go 10 months without seeing each other. 480 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,680 So then we had to find ways to see each other more often. 481 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,120 And so it wasn't just a birthdays and Christmas, 482 00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:39,600 it became birthdays and Christmas and a back to school 483 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,800 and oh, well, Courtney's got a piano recital 484 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,680 or Courtney's got a dance recital. 485 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,840 And from there, it just evolved really 486 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,160 into this beautiful sisterhood. 487 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,680 And she just became part of the family 488 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,600 and we wanted her to be part of the family. 489 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,880 On that note, how would you say that you have communicated 490 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,040 and figured out how to set boundaries in your relationships? 491 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,640 People have always asked, what are your guys' rules? 492 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,360 Like, what's the word I'm looking for? 493 00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:12,200 Like- 494 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:13,160 Contract kind of. 495 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:14,000 Yes, contract. 496 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,400 Yes, people are always like, well, so like, what is that? 497 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,280 And I'm like, we've just navigated through it on our own. 498 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,000 And I think that that's helped us all figure it out. 499 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,000 I love that we haven't had to revert back to, 500 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,000 like, you know, some like paperwork contract 501 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,760 because people ask that all the time. 502 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:35,600 They really do. 503 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,120 I get asked that all the time. 504 00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:40,680 I think that my having a relationship with Sarah Jane 505 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:45,680 and having that sisterhood with her took away the fear 506 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,120 of what will happen when Courtney's 18. 507 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,000 You know, there's, what's gonna happen 508 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,480 when they start communicating without me? 509 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,480 There's a lot of that fear coming from an adoptive parent 510 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,160 that goes away because I already love her. 511 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,760 We've talked enough about her reasons 512 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,640 for needing to place Courtney at the time 513 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,440 that I know whatever I say to Courtney about it 514 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,480 will be reiterated by Sarah Jane 515 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,120 and I'm not making stuff up. 516 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:24,480 And if she has questions, 517 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,440 she knows she can ask either one of us 518 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,760 because of the communication that we've had. 519 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:31,680 So I don't know. 520 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,600 I don't feel like it was ever really necessary 521 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,360 to have boundaries, 522 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:39,480 but I think it's because we loved each other 523 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,280 and we respected each other. 524 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,080 If things had been different 525 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,680 and we didn't have that foundation of love and respect 526 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,120 for each other, it may have become necessary 527 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:52,000 to draw boundaries, 528 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,240 but I'm kind of glad that we didn't ever have 529 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:55,600 to cross that bridge. 530 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,800 I'm not an adoptive parent, so I don't know, 531 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,480 but I assume that fear is natural. 532 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,720 But I think openness, like, well, you know me, 533 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,720 you know how our relationship is. 534 00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:11,920 You know you have nothing to worry about. 535 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:13,200 Not that you don't worry, 536 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:17,520 but I'm just saying you have that layer of like, 537 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,080 no, I know her and I know her intentions. 538 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,520 Prior to adopting and trying to figure out 539 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,840 what open adoption even meant, 540 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,320 there was a lot of fear of if we do this, 541 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,880 where does that leave me when the child's 18? 542 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,360 They're gonna develop this beautiful relationship 543 00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:42,960 with their birth mom for 18 years, 544 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,600 but when they're 18 and they can have their own relationship, 545 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,320 where does that leave me? 546 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,080 Because I've been a part of this 547 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,000 and I've had this relationship, 548 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:01,280 and it's kind of scary to not know what my role is anymore 549 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,280 and to not know where I fit in this relationship 550 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,360 the three of us have built over time. 551 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,440 But yeah, there was a lot of fears as far as 552 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,840 how does this work and is she gonna choose her 553 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:24,520 over me? 554 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,160 Am I gonna be good enough if she knows her? 555 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,000 There was a lot of fears going into it, 556 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,840 but like I said, having that love and respect 557 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,000 for each other took that fear away. 558 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,600 I love that. 559 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,440 Absolutely, I feel like I relate to 560 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,720 what you're saying, it's beautiful. 561 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:46,560 Thank you. 562 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,280 All right, so what do you all feel 563 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,600 have been some key moments or experiences 564 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,920 that have strengthened your relationships with each other? 565 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,840 I honestly feel like having conversations 566 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,760 is just so important because I've had conversations 567 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,720 with my mom and Sarah Jane, 568 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,760 and we've had conversations together. 569 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,760 And so I think just talking and as they're both saying, 570 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,280 we've always just, they loved each other, 571 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:16,960 I've loved them both, it's always just been 572 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,680 this super amazing bond that we've all had, 573 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,960 but I think just all the time that we spend together 574 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,120 and getting to know Sarah Jane and her, 575 00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:29,040 getting to watch me grow up and getting to know me, 576 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,880 it's just all the moments together 577 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,280 that have just created this amazing bond 578 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,120 and connection that we all have, it's just, it's so cool. 579 00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:42,080 I feel like just talking about it, 580 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,120 it's such a cool thing. 581 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,320 I would say one thing, another piece of advice, 582 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:54,320 if you will, is to over communicate. 583 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:59,560 It's better to communicate too much than not enough. 584 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,880 And so I think that we've all done really good 585 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,720 at over communicating, almost to a fault, 586 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:08,520 but it's a good thing. 587 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,840 Kind of my thought when I was thinking about 588 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,000 just this as you guys were talking, 589 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,120 which was like just knowing 590 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,760 that I was gonna see her again soon, 591 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,000 I think was a huge thing for me, 592 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,040 like just that knowing, 593 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,360 like when it was a good time to say goodbye, 594 00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:26,880 it wasn't, it was just to see you later, 595 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,160 it wasn't a, and it's funny, 596 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:31,800 and I haven't thought about, 597 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,200 when you said that to me in the hospital, 598 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:34,200 until you just wrote it up, 599 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,640 I haven't thought about that for a really long time. 600 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:42,640 And that's just what has been like the most meaningful part 601 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,320 of this whole thing is just like, 602 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,880 I get to see her again, I get to watch her grow up, 603 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,920 I get to see her become this beautiful girl that she is. 604 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,520 As you guys speak, it's really cool to see 605 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,200 the connection and the honesty and vulnerability. 606 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,560 I love being able to see that 607 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,760 in real time with you guys too. 608 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,680 So what role do you feel like transparency plays 609 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:09,960 in your relationship? 610 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:15,360 And how do you think it's impacted your family dynamic? 611 00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:18,960 I think that transparency has been the reason 612 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,000 why everything has felt so easy. 613 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,880 Yes, there's no secrets, there's no questions. 614 00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:36,080 And because of that, there is undeniable trust. 615 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,160 Like Sarah Jane wants to have Courtney come over, 616 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,240 watch the kids, sure, why not? 617 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,320 I totally trust her to be here. 618 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:49,320 And just different scenarios where trust comes into play. 619 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,280 I mean, there's no secrets. 620 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,040 Being completely open with each other about everything, 621 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:02,040 about the vulnerabilities and the way that we feel 622 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,440 and things that we're struggling with, 623 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:10,440 I think it just has this crazy amount of trust 624 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,880 that just makes the love grow. 625 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,640 Because you know that there's not gonna be any judgment 626 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,680 because there's no secrets. 627 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,680 I don't know, that's just how it feels like, 628 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,440 what it feels like for me. 629 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,280 We've gotten where we are because of that. 630 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,000 Well, I think I pretty much summed it up. 631 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,640 I mean, I think it's really cool. 632 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,240 And I was talking to my mom earlier about this, 633 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,360 is that like, because of that transparency, 634 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,040 it's just been like, 635 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,440 because people would sometimes ask me, 636 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,000 like, oh, what did your parents tell you who were adopted? 637 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,240 And like, oh, well, I've always known. 638 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,240 It's like, it's just, there was never a point 639 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:47,680 where they're like, oh yeah, you're adopted. 640 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:48,640 It's like, I've always known it 641 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,840 because we've always done stuff with Sarah Jane. 642 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,840 And it was never hard to grasp 643 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,280 because it's just, that's who I am. 644 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:00,920 It's always who I've been. 645 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,200 It was never hard to like, yeah, understand or anything. 646 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,720 Because of that transparency, 647 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,080 my parents never, never hit anything for me. 648 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,320 So, and I think that made it so much easier for me to, 649 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,080 just understand it. 650 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:16,520 So it's great. 651 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,120 Can I get your analogy that you told me? 652 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:21,600 Oh, sure. 653 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,680 Well, we were discussing this earlier today. 654 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,200 She said, it's like your mom telling you 655 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,040 10 years after you've been born, 656 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,200 hey, this is your grandma. 657 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,000 Well, yeah. 658 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:35,920 I know that's my grandma. 659 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:37,840 She's been my grandma for 10 years. 660 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,680 Anyway, it was just cute the way she explained it. 661 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,680 Yeah, people always ask like, oh, what do you mean? 662 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:43,520 Like you're adopted. 663 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,480 I'm like, it's like, yeah, I've always known. 664 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:46,560 It's not like your parents, 665 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,160 you ever remember your parents telling you, 666 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:49,360 oh, this is your grandma? 667 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:50,200 No, you've always known. 668 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:51,760 It's always been your grandma, you know? 669 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,120 So that's kind of how I explained to her. 670 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:55,760 I don't know if that makes sense, but. 671 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,000 That's a great analogy. 672 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,680 I'm going to be thinking about that. 673 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,720 So I feel like we've talked a lot about feelings 674 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:07,720 evolving over time and relationships growing 675 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:08,720 and blossoming. 676 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,360 Just to wrap things up, I would love to hear you guys share. 677 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,280 How do you think that you've seen openness impact 678 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,240 not only yourselves, but also other members of your family, 679 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:23,720 children, birth families, right? 680 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,440 Like, how do you feel like you've seen openness impact 681 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,200 your circles? 682 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,640 Well, I would say the first thing that came to mind 683 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,800 when you were asking that question is going back 684 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,040 to the family orchard. 685 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,880 You know, I know Sarah Jane's parents. 686 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,680 I know her sisters and brothers-in-law 687 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,480 and her brothers and sisters-in-law. 688 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,600 I've met her nieces and nephews, 689 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,000 Courtney's biological cousins. 690 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:56,680 I know their family and I love her family. 691 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,680 And we got to meet Ryan's parents and his grandparents 692 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,120 and his sisters and his brother 693 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,720 and all of those extended families. 694 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:14,000 And I just feel like the more we get to know each other, 695 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,600 the more our circle expands 696 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,680 and the more our circle expands. 697 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,560 I know this is your Christmas episode. 698 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,200 So the image that's coming to mind is like the Grinch 699 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,040 and the heart growing three sizes that day. 700 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:28,960 It really feels like that. 701 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:30,920 That the more your circle expands, 702 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:32,880 the more your heart expands. 703 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,760 There's never too much love to give away. 704 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,120 And as you give it away, you receive it. 705 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:40,880 This is just how we've been in our relationship. 706 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:42,800 This is just how we've been who it is. 707 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,040 And my family has always been so supportive of it 708 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,080 and so supportive of the family. 709 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:52,080 So it's always been supportive of me and everything. 710 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,320 And so it's just like, this is just what my family knows. 711 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,360 And I think I speak for my family when I say that 712 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:03,360 we all truly, truly feel and believe that this was meant. 713 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,880 Courtney's with the family she was supposed to be with 714 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,040 and we were meant to be this other family that loves her 715 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,200 and is there for her and supports her. 716 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,200 And it was, I mean, it was just meant to be. 717 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,160 My family I know feels that way. 718 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,360 I hope it's okay to share this vulnerable moment. 719 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,360 But when Sarah Jane had announced that she was pregnant 720 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:40,360 again after they were married, I took Courtney aside 721 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,800 and I just said, Courtney, how are you? 722 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,360 How are you feeling? 723 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,360 Does this bother you at all? 724 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:47,560 Like, where's your head? 725 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:48,400 Where's your heart? 726 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,960 Just let me have all of it. 727 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,640 And she just held my hand and she looked at me 728 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,720 and she said, mom, I'm great 729 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,720 because I'm where I'm supposed to be. 730 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,920 And it was just such an amazing experience with her 731 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,480 to know that she felt that and that there was no question. 732 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,680 And I think it's because of our relationship 733 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,760 that we've developed that she knows that. 734 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,560 And so for her to have a little brother 735 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,400 and to have a little sister, it's just more family to her 736 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,800 and she knows that she's where she's supposed to be. 737 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,440 I think without this openness, I wouldn't be who I am today. 738 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,200 I think it's such a good part of who I am. 739 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,400 And I just love it so much. 740 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,600 I mean, I feel like I sound like a broken record 741 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,960 but it's just, it's such an amazing thing. 742 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,400 It really, it truly is a blessing. 743 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,720 It's just, it's always been so much more love. 744 00:34:48,720 --> 00:34:51,320 It's always been, whenever I think of adoption 745 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:52,680 and Sarah Jane and her family, 746 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,240 all these families that I have, they just love me 747 00:34:56,240 --> 00:34:57,080 and I love them. 748 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,960 And it's just, so I think without open adoption, 749 00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:01,960 I wouldn't be who I am. 750 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,480 And so I feel like it's just, that's me. 751 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:05,320 That's who I am. 752 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:06,560 So I love it. 753 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,600 I'm just gonna say like, kind of like I already shared, 754 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:14,000 I truly have always felt that you are 755 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:14,960 where you're supposed to be 756 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,680 and that they're supposed to be your family. 757 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,480 And that I think has carried me through 758 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:23,480 because people talk about me and how strong I must be 759 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:24,760 and how selfless I am. 760 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,000 Like, I don't get it because it's just like, 761 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,680 she is where she's supposed to be. 762 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:33,680 I just, I was just kind of her carrier that got her there 763 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,360 and I don't feel like I'm that, 764 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,680 I just feel like she was meant to be with her family 765 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,280 and that's where she is. 766 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:48,280 And I've never ever, ever thought anything different 767 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:50,200 than that. 768 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:51,360 Thank you all so much. 769 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,480 Is there anything else that anyone wants to share? 770 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,720 I will say that Courtney has been the driving factor 771 00:35:57,720 --> 00:36:00,880 for us doing this podcast 772 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:05,360 because she's incredibly passionate about educating people 773 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,120 about adoption, specifically open adoption. 774 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,280 So thank you for giving for that opportunity. 775 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,480 Thank you so much because honestly, 776 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,200 it's just, it's such a big part of my life. 777 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,040 And so I love honestly doing anything I can 778 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,720 to get rid of that negative stigma 779 00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:23,520 that's kind of surrounds adoption 780 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,320 and especially open adoption. 781 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,760 And I just, it's just such a cool thing. 782 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,960 And I'm just so lucky for the situation that I'm in. 783 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:33,920 So thank you. 784 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:34,760 Thank you. 785 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:35,600 You're welcome. 786 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:36,440 You're welcome. 787 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:37,280 You know me. 788 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,320 You guys, thank you so very much for being on the show. 789 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:42,160 Thank you. 790 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:43,000 Yes, thank you. 791 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,080 Again, we want to give a huge thanks to these three 792 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,880 for sharing their experiences with us 793 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:54,760 and for spending some time. 794 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,640 Yeah, we're so grateful to hear from them 795 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,840 and we're so grateful for all of you for listening 796 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:01,960 as we've listened to lots of different perspectives 797 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:02,880 this year. 798 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,040 This is our last episode for 2024. 799 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,640 We'll be back at the beginning of 2025 800 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,080 with a few more episodes. 801 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:10,840 And we're really excited about that. 802 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,920 We appreciate all of you being here 803 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,920 and being open to listening and learning 804 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,880 from a wide range of different experiences about adoption. 805 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:19,720 Happy holidays. 806 00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:38,760 Shh.