Welcome to the Open Adoption Project.
This is episode 117.
We are the Nelsons.
I'm Shaun.
And I'm Lanette.
And today we're excited to have an episode
with a birth mom, an adoptee and an adoptive mom,
all from the same adoption relationship.
We'll be hearing from Sarah Jane Schenck,
who we heard from in a previous episode,
and she is a birth mom.
And we'll hear from her daughter Courtney,
as well as Courtney's adoptive mom, Jeanette.
All right, well, we'll jump to that conversation now.
And again, we're just so grateful for these three
sharing their perspective and their story.
We are here on the podcast with a special group.
We have three women here today.
We have Courtney and Jeanette and Sarah Jane.
Sarah Jane is returning to the show.
She's been on in the past and we're happy to have her back
and happy to welcome Jeanette and Courtney.
Can you guys tell us a bit about yourselves
and how you're connected?
Hey, I am Jeanette and I am an adoptive mom
of two beautiful girls,
and one of which we're talking about today.
And so that's how we're connected is because of Courtney.
Yeah, I'm Courtney.
I'm the adoptee, I guess you would say.
I'm a sophomore. No, I'm not.
I'm a junior in high school.
And yeah, that's me.
My name is Sarah Jane.
I am a birth mother, birth mom here.
And we have a little baby here with us,
my little baby I just had.
And I have a two-year-old as well.
And yeah.
We're so happy to have each of you with us.
If you could say what your very favorite,
like can't live without top two things are each,
what would you say?
I'll go first since I'm putting you on the spot.
Okay.
I would probably say for me, chocolate.
I really get stressed every time the news is like,
there's a chocolate famine.
It's gonna be expensive and scarce.
I'm like, oh my gosh, no.
Chocolate.
And I really love the BBC dramas,
especially like the Emma and Pride and Prejudice retellings.
I'm a little obsessed with those.
I would say probably Diet Dr. Pepper
and my kids.
I could not live without my kids.
I would probably say Diet Dr. Pepper as well.
Fake out to her and music were my family.
So I do like Diet Dr. Pepper,
but I'm more of a Diet Coke girl.
Diet Coke, Diet Pepsi.
I don't have a preference.
I like them both.
I feel like I have to say my kids now
because of tonight, which is so-
I feel so bad that I didn't say that.
Well, I'm so happy to have you guys on the podcast.
Thank you so much for being here.
All right, so we're gonna start off
with a question for Courtney.
Courtney, how do you describe your relationship
with both your birth mom and your adoptive mom?
Ooh, that is such a great question.
And I would say the two words that came to mind
when I first saw that question was open and loving.
I've always had such a great relationship
with both of them.
And it's just, they're both so amazing
and I love them both so much.
And I love how open it is.
I've always loved having Sarah Jane as a part of my life.
And I feel like the relationships are different,
but in such a good way.
And I love them both for so many different reasons.
So yeah.
I love that.
Open and loving.
Those are great descriptors.
All right, so Sarah Jane,
how has your relationship with Courtney
and her family changed over time?
Kind of when I read that question,
I was kind of thinking like evolved and adapted.
Like I feel like we've evolved and adapted too.
So true.
To just the different phases of life
in this amazing relationship that we all share.
Awesome.
So what has that looked like or felt like?
Oh, it felt like it's progressed the way it's supposed to.
I don't know.
Does that make sense?
Like it felt very like, like I said,
it's naturally progressed how it's needed to
and how we've kind of all needed it too, I think.
I love that.
All right.
What were your initial thoughts and feelings
about open adoption and how have they changed
over time or evolved?
Well, we started on this adoption journey
a little more than 20 years ago.
And at first, my thoughts and opinions were
I just want a baby and I want to be a normal mom.
And that was really hard for me to overcome.
And one of the ways that I was able to overcome that,
we had a birth mom who was living with us
for five months prior to her placement.
We were asked by LDS Family Services to house her
as she had chosen another family.
And it was quite difficult.
We had been in the game for about four years waiting
and to have her come to live with us
knowing she was choosing another family was hard.
But having a relationship with her for five months
gave me a different perspective on what a birth mom was.
And so I feel like having that experience was crucial
for me to have my mindset change
for how an open adoption could be.
And then of course we had our first daughter
that we adopted and it just has,
I don't know how to say this.
It's been better in so many ways
than I had envisioned it when I was scared,
if that makes sense.
Absolutely.
There were a lot of fears.
And I think just going into this,
knowing they are also a mom and they also love their kid
with the mindset of also,
I don't know if I was in their shoes,
if I could do what they've chosen to do.
I don't know that I could do that.
And because of that, those two different mindsets,
it made it very easy for me to love my daughter's birthmothers
and also their families.
I love that.
Yeah, I think that it's really common for adoptive parents
to go in to adoption feeling scared
and wishing that they could have a normal experience, right?
Yeah.
I definitely relate to what you're saying of,
like that humanizing where you come to love
and respect these mothers and they become family
and it just changes it as that happens.
It's a beautiful thing.
Well, and I love that perspective.
I've never thought about that,
how you said that you thought about,
like if you were in my shoes and had, if you could do it.
I've never thought about that.
So that was,
it's beautiful to be there.
And it just changes when you're handed a baby,
it changes very quickly.
Your feelings and emotions towards this mom
who's sacrificing for you.
It's hard not to love them.
Yeah.
Well, and especially as for me as an adoptive mom,
as I see my kid's birth parents,
and my kids, it's just this affirmation of,
wow, I love you with all my heart
and I love your birth family with all my heart too
because I can see them in you
and like this goodness just radiates
and it's a beautiful thing to be able to see that connection.
Yes.
All right.
So Courtney, I have another question for you.
How has your understanding of your adoption story
evolved over time?
That's such a good one.
I think it's a good question.
That's such a good one.
Well, for me personally,
and our situation I would say is very unique,
but I've always known I was adopted.
It's never been a secret.
It's always been a very,
I've always told people, I've always been very proud of it.
And so I feel like for a long time,
it was just like, oh, this is just my life.
I've adopted, it's great.
Cause especially with both of these two
just being so great about it and so loving,
it just, it made it so easy.
And so it was never a thing that I was like,
didn't wanna talk about.
But one thing that was,
that Janette, my mom brought up was
when I first met Ryan, my birth father for the first time,
that was one of the times where it was really interesting.
And it was very different
cause I'd always known Sarah Jane,
but meeting him was like,
it was different, but it was like a good thing.
And it just, it felt so natural.
And so I think because of our like situation,
everything has always just felt so loving
and just so natural.
And so just, I feel like I've always had
a very good understanding.
And I think that's mainly due to it being an open adoption.
So yeah.
I love that.
Well, and I feel like that ties back to what you said earlier
about how you feel there's just so much openness
and love in these conversations.
I think that has to help too.
That's great.
Well, Ryan would love to hear that.
And he'll love it when he listens to this
because he has not been a part of this relationship
for all that time.
And so he's constantly like asking me like,
do you think that she thinks that this is weird?
Do you think that?
And I'm like, no, I don't, but it's good.
I know.
Yeah.
But he like, it's just so new to him.
It's just such a new experience.
So it's good to hear.
I love to hear you say that.
He wasn't a part of the entire evolving.
Kind of came in the middle of the game.
And so maybe he's still feeling a little trepidation
because we were just family.
Yeah.
Always just, yeah.
And maybe he just doesn't quite feel that
because he missed out on some of that evolution
of our relationship.
And I think like over time it'll come,
but I still think he's like,
but his biggest concern is always in you.
Like is Courtney okay?
Like do you think she's okay with this?
Like do you think?
And I'm like, yeah, because I know her.
And I'm like, yeah, why are you even asking that?
But with him.
And the thing is, honestly at this point,
it feels like he's always been there.
Honestly, like it just, it doesn't feel weird or anything.
So it's just such a great thing.
I love that so much.
All right, so I have another question for you.
What moments stand out as particularly meaningful
in your relationships with both your birth mom
and your adoptive mom?
There's so many.
I mean, I can't think of a single God moment.
They've all just been so good.
But I think growing up, getting to know her
and like she supported me through so many things.
Like she came to my piano recitals and my softball games
and she was just always there.
And so I think just having her there
and like knowing that she loved me
and not only that, but her showing it was just so special.
And I've always just felt so loved because of that.
And also all the different milestones
of her little two-year-old Theo,
that was really, really cool to get to be a part of.
And like being at her and Ryan's wedding,
that was a super cool experience.
And I just, there's just so many good ones.
And I think what a lot of people don't see
when they're thinking about adoption and they,
or even just open adoption,
is that getting to have the birth mother
as a part of your life is such a huge blessing.
And I feel like some people might think of that as like,
oh, it's confusing or it's hard,
but it's always been a blessing to me.
So I just think it's, I think it's so cool.
And I love it.
I've loved having her in my life.
So.
I love that.
And do you feel like it has been confusing?
No, honestly, like as I've been thinking about doing this,
the main thing that keeps coming to mind is that like,
because it's been open, it's never been confusing
and it's never been hard for me to grasp.
And I don't know if that's because the open option
or because these two are just amazing,
but I think it's just so cool.
I have always just felt like it's a blessing.
It's never been hard or confusing.
Cause I always know, and I've always known she loved me.
So I think that's what's really cool about open adoption
is that a lot of those questions that I think come along
when people are talking about adoption
or even people that I've talked to that are my age
that have been adopted, but it's closed.
They have so many questions and they don't understand.
And there's a lot of pain associated with that.
And so when I'm talking to them, like, wow,
that's so different from what I felt
because I've always just seen it
as this wonderful, amazing thing.
And so it breaks my heart to see people
see it as something different.
So that's why I think it's so cool
that we're spreading the word about open adoption.
I love that.
Well, and something I've noticed as I've heard
both Sarah Jane and your mom talking
about your guys' relationships with each other,
they both focus so much on you
and how they can help you.
And we often talk on our podcast
about how we need to try to make adoptees
be the center of our efforts as parents, right?
As birth parents and adoptive parents,
keeping the adoptee at the center.
And so like, here's a great example of that,
especially as I hear Courtney speak, that's amazing.
Well, thank you.
They're awesome.
And you know what?
It's all because of Jeanette
because I wouldn't have been able to do all those things
that Courtney just talked about without Jeanette's,
what she started out by saying her decision
to go down the open adoption road.
And I wouldn't have been a mom without Sarah Jane.
So we just all needed each other.
Yeah.
Absolutely, yes.
So Sarah Jane, how do you hope that your relationship
with Courtney will continue to grow in the future?
I mean, I think that we've stayed on this trajectory path
and I just think that we're just part of each other's lives.
Like that's just what it is.
And I don't plan on ever not being that same way.
And me continuing to support her in those big milestones
and her continuing to be here for me and my family
and my kids and me being a part of her family,
just that whole aspect of it.
I feel like a lot of attitude about adoption
between birth mom, adoptee, adoptive mom
will come from how you speak about adoption.
And I feel like it's super important to address
that it's really how you speak about it
that will transform how you feel about it.
And not only that, but how you're,
your child feels about it, how the adoptee
would feel about it.
And Courtney keeps saying that she's always known.
Well, I've always been very proud of the fact
that my kids are adopted.
Cause to me that means they are loved twice as much
as anybody else.
And I think it's just super important
that you're trying to be a part of that.
It's super important that you're talking positively
when you're speaking about adoption.
If you are involved in that world,
you need to speak positively if you want your child
to have positive feelings about it.
So it's never been a secret
cause I've been proud to say I'm an adoptive mom.
I have five younger brothers, don't have any sisters.
And so I would often tell people adoption
was the best thing ever.
Cause I didn't just get two girls, I got two sisters.
And that's how I really feel.
They're my sisters.
We are all family.
And it's just really, really important to me
that if you are on this adoption path,
that you learn to speak positively about it
even on the hard days.
Cause there are hard days.
But as long as you're speaking positively,
then your child will feel that
and your relationship will thrive in that positivity.
I love that.
And that really resonates with me too,
as you speak about how your kids' birth moms feel
like your sisters,
but I mean, it's the best way I can describe it.
I feel like I have additional sisters
through my kids' adoptions.
It's amazing that love and that bond that happens.
Yeah.
Sarah-Jane, we're gonna say something.
I was just gonna say that I feel like
through this whole process,
the one thing that I've always told people
in defending over adoption,
cause people have criticized it,
is that how could having someone love her
as much as her parents love her in her life be bad?
Like how could that be a negative thing?
I think it really makes people think,
oh, I didn't really think about it that way.
So I love that you said that, Janette.
It's like you're not such a big part.
One thing that I, this is just kind of silly,
but one thing that Janette, my mom has always said,
is that you don't have a family tree,
you have a family orchard.
Yes.
And I've always loved that.
And she's always just pointed out
the fact that being adopted just means
you have that many more people that love you.
And I've always,
and because that's the way she's talked about it,
that's the way I've always thought of it.
So it's never ever been a bad thing.
It's always been like, oh, these people love me.
There's just more people that love me.
So I think, yeah, I think that's really cool.
I wish people could see that,
see like look at open adoption in that light,
more than, oh, like placing a baby for adoption.
It's like, it should be a good thing.
It's, you know, it is a good thing
because it just shows that that many more people love you.
So yeah.
I love that.
My husband always says to our kids
that they don't have a family tree,
they have a family bush because it's just big
and goes everywhere.
I like the imagery of the orchard though.
That's a better imagery.
I like that.
Yeah.
There's multiple trees.
So it's an orchard.
Yeah.
I love it.
I would maybe say it's like an aspen orchard, right?
Where the roots all come together and support each other.
Yeah. I love that.
All right.
So Jeanette, what advice would you give
to other adoptive parents who are considering open adoption
and might be feeling kind of nervous or concerned about that?
Through one of the required classes we took
through LDS Family Services, like I said, 20-ish years ago,
and they told us, never promise anything
that you will not be able to keep.
So don't make any promises that you don't intend to fulfill
because that will immediately cause problems.
And I remember when Sarah Jane had just had Courtney
and they're both still in the hospital
and we're talking about, well, where do we go from here?
And I just told her, the only thing that I can promise you
is that this isn't the last time you will see her.
I don't know what else to promise you,
but I know this won't be the last time you see her.
We'll figure it out.
And that's what we had to do
because there was really nobody 20 years ago,
16 and a half years ago for Courtney
that really could help us navigate through open adoption.
And we stuck with what we liked at first,
birthdays and Christmas.
Well, Courtney's birthday is a little close to Christmas
and then we would go 10 months without seeing each other.
So then we had to find ways to see each other more often.
And so it wasn't just a birthdays and Christmas,
it became birthdays and Christmas and a back to school
and oh, well, Courtney's got a piano recital
or Courtney's got a dance recital.
And from there, it just evolved really
into this beautiful sisterhood.
And she just became part of the family
and we wanted her to be part of the family.
On that note, how would you say that you have communicated
and figured out how to set boundaries in your relationships?
People have always asked, what are your guys' rules?
Like, what's the word I'm looking for?
Like-
Contract kind of.
Yes, contract.
Yes, people are always like, well, so like, what is that?
And I'm like, we've just navigated through it on our own.
And I think that that's helped us all figure it out.
I love that we haven't had to revert back to,
like, you know, some like paperwork contract
because people ask that all the time.
They really do.
I get asked that all the time.
I think that my having a relationship with Sarah Jane
and having that sisterhood with her took away the fear
of what will happen when Courtney's 18.
You know, there's, what's gonna happen
when they start communicating without me?
There's a lot of that fear coming from an adoptive parent
that goes away because I already love her.
We've talked enough about her reasons
for needing to place Courtney at the time
that I know whatever I say to Courtney about it
will be reiterated by Sarah Jane
and I'm not making stuff up.
And if she has questions,
she knows she can ask either one of us
because of the communication that we've had.
So I don't know.
I don't feel like it was ever really necessary
to have boundaries,
but I think it's because we loved each other
and we respected each other.
If things had been different
and we didn't have that foundation of love and respect
for each other, it may have become necessary
to draw boundaries,
but I'm kind of glad that we didn't ever have
to cross that bridge.
I'm not an adoptive parent, so I don't know,
but I assume that fear is natural.
But I think openness, like, well, you know me,
you know how our relationship is.
You know you have nothing to worry about.
Not that you don't worry,
but I'm just saying you have that layer of like,
no, I know her and I know her intentions.
Prior to adopting and trying to figure out
what open adoption even meant,
there was a lot of fear of if we do this,
where does that leave me when the child's 18?
They're gonna develop this beautiful relationship
with their birth mom for 18 years,
but when they're 18 and they can have their own relationship,
where does that leave me?
Because I've been a part of this
and I've had this relationship,
and it's kind of scary to not know what my role is anymore
and to not know where I fit in this relationship
the three of us have built over time.
But yeah, there was a lot of fears as far as
how does this work and is she gonna choose her
over me?
Am I gonna be good enough if she knows her?
There was a lot of fears going into it,
but like I said, having that love and respect
for each other took that fear away.
I love that.
Absolutely, I feel like I relate to
what you're saying, it's beautiful.
Thank you.
All right, so what do you all feel
have been some key moments or experiences
that have strengthened your relationships with each other?
I honestly feel like having conversations
is just so important because I've had conversations
with my mom and Sarah Jane,
and we've had conversations together.
And so I think just talking and as they're both saying,
we've always just, they loved each other,
I've loved them both, it's always just been
this super amazing bond that we've all had,
but I think just all the time that we spend together
and getting to know Sarah Jane and her,
getting to watch me grow up and getting to know me,
it's just all the moments together
that have just created this amazing bond
and connection that we all have, it's just, it's so cool.
I feel like just talking about it,
it's such a cool thing.
I would say one thing, another piece of advice,
if you will, is to over communicate.
It's better to communicate too much than not enough.
And so I think that we've all done really good
at over communicating, almost to a fault,
but it's a good thing.
Kind of my thought when I was thinking about
just this as you guys were talking,
which was like just knowing
that I was gonna see her again soon,
I think was a huge thing for me,
like just that knowing,
like when it was a good time to say goodbye,
it wasn't, it was just to see you later,
it wasn't a, and it's funny,
and I haven't thought about,
when you said that to me in the hospital,
until you just wrote it up,
I haven't thought about that for a really long time.
And that's just what has been like the most meaningful part
of this whole thing is just like,
I get to see her again, I get to watch her grow up,
I get to see her become this beautiful girl that she is.
As you guys speak, it's really cool to see
the connection and the honesty and vulnerability.
I love being able to see that
in real time with you guys too.
So what role do you feel like transparency plays
in your relationship?
And how do you think it's impacted your family dynamic?
I think that transparency has been the reason
why everything has felt so easy.
Yes, there's no secrets, there's no questions.
And because of that, there is undeniable trust.
Like Sarah Jane wants to have Courtney come over,
watch the kids, sure, why not?
I totally trust her to be here.
And just different scenarios where trust comes into play.
I mean, there's no secrets.
Being completely open with each other about everything,
about the vulnerabilities and the way that we feel
and things that we're struggling with,
I think it just has this crazy amount of trust
that just makes the love grow.
Because you know that there's not gonna be any judgment
because there's no secrets.
I don't know, that's just how it feels like,
what it feels like for me.
We've gotten where we are because of that.
Well, I think I pretty much summed it up.
I mean, I think it's really cool.
And I was talking to my mom earlier about this,
is that like, because of that transparency,
it's just been like,
because people would sometimes ask me,
like, oh, what did your parents tell you who were adopted?
And like, oh, well, I've always known.
It's like, it's just, there was never a point
where they're like, oh yeah, you're adopted.
It's like, I've always known it
because we've always done stuff with Sarah Jane.
And it was never hard to grasp
because it's just, that's who I am.
It's always who I've been.
It was never hard to like, yeah, understand or anything.
Because of that transparency,
my parents never, never hit anything for me.
So, and I think that made it so much easier for me to,
just understand it.
So it's great.
Can I get your analogy that you told me?
Oh, sure.
Well, we were discussing this earlier today.
She said, it's like your mom telling you
10 years after you've been born,
hey, this is your grandma.
Well, yeah.
I know that's my grandma.
She's been my grandma for 10 years.
Anyway, it was just cute the way she explained it.
Yeah, people always ask like, oh, what do you mean?
Like you're adopted.
I'm like, it's like, yeah, I've always known.
It's not like your parents,
you ever remember your parents telling you,
oh, this is your grandma?
No, you've always known.
It's always been your grandma, you know?
So that's kind of how I explained to her.
I don't know if that makes sense, but.
That's a great analogy.
I'm going to be thinking about that.
So I feel like we've talked a lot about feelings
evolving over time and relationships growing
and blossoming.
Just to wrap things up, I would love to hear you guys share.
How do you think that you've seen openness impact
not only yourselves, but also other members of your family,
children, birth families, right?
Like, how do you feel like you've seen openness impact
your circles?
Well, I would say the first thing that came to mind
when you were asking that question is going back
to the family orchard.
You know, I know Sarah Jane's parents.
I know her sisters and brothers-in-law
and her brothers and sisters-in-law.
I've met her nieces and nephews,
Courtney's biological cousins.
I know their family and I love her family.
And we got to meet Ryan's parents and his grandparents
and his sisters and his brother
and all of those extended families.
And I just feel like the more we get to know each other,
the more our circle expands
and the more our circle expands.
I know this is your Christmas episode.
So the image that's coming to mind is like the Grinch
and the heart growing three sizes that day.
It really feels like that.
That the more your circle expands,
the more your heart expands.
There's never too much love to give away.
And as you give it away, you receive it.
This is just how we've been in our relationship.
This is just how we've been who it is.
And my family has always been so supportive of it
and so supportive of the family.
So it's always been supportive of me and everything.
And so it's just like, this is just what my family knows.
And I think I speak for my family when I say that
we all truly, truly feel and believe that this was meant.
Courtney's with the family she was supposed to be with
and we were meant to be this other family that loves her
and is there for her and supports her.
And it was, I mean, it was just meant to be.
My family I know feels that way.
I hope it's okay to share this vulnerable moment.
But when Sarah Jane had announced that she was pregnant
again after they were married, I took Courtney aside
and I just said, Courtney, how are you?
How are you feeling?
Does this bother you at all?
Like, where's your head?
Where's your heart?
Just let me have all of it.
And she just held my hand and she looked at me
and she said, mom, I'm great
because I'm where I'm supposed to be.
And it was just such an amazing experience with her
to know that she felt that and that there was no question.
And I think it's because of our relationship
that we've developed that she knows that.
And so for her to have a little brother
and to have a little sister, it's just more family to her
and she knows that she's where she's supposed to be.
I think without this openness, I wouldn't be who I am today.
I think it's such a good part of who I am.
And I just love it so much.
I mean, I feel like I sound like a broken record
but it's just, it's such an amazing thing.
It really, it truly is a blessing.
It's just, it's always been so much more love.
It's always been, whenever I think of adoption
and Sarah Jane and her family,
all these families that I have, they just love me
and I love them.
And it's just, so I think without open adoption,
I wouldn't be who I am.
And so I feel like it's just, that's me.
That's who I am.
So I love it.
I'm just gonna say like, kind of like I already shared,
I truly have always felt that you are
where you're supposed to be
and that they're supposed to be your family.
And that I think has carried me through
because people talk about me and how strong I must be
and how selfless I am.
Like, I don't get it because it's just like,
she is where she's supposed to be.
I just, I was just kind of her carrier that got her there
and I don't feel like I'm that,
I just feel like she was meant to be with her family
and that's where she is.
And I've never ever, ever thought anything different
than that.
Thank you all so much.
Is there anything else that anyone wants to share?
I will say that Courtney has been the driving factor
for us doing this podcast
because she's incredibly passionate about educating people
about adoption, specifically open adoption.
So thank you for giving for that opportunity.
Thank you so much because honestly,
it's just, it's such a big part of my life.
And so I love honestly doing anything I can
to get rid of that negative stigma
that's kind of surrounds adoption
and especially open adoption.
And I just, it's just such a cool thing.
And I'm just so lucky for the situation that I'm in.
So thank you.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
You know me.
You guys, thank you so very much for being on the show.
Thank you.
Yes, thank you.
Again, we want to give a huge thanks to these three
for sharing their experiences with us
and for spending some time.
Yeah, we're so grateful to hear from them
and we're so grateful for all of you for listening
as we've listened to lots of different perspectives
this year.
This is our last episode for 2024.
We'll be back at the beginning of 2025
with a few more episodes.
And we're really excited about that.
We appreciate all of you being here
and being open to listening and learning
from a wide range of different experiences about adoption.
Happy holidays.
Shh.