1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,760 Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 116. We're the Nelsons. I'm Shaun. 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:12,080 And I'm Lanette. Today we're excited to have our final National Adoption Month episode for 2024. 3 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:18,560 We are doing our fourth installment of our Adoptee-led book club and today we're talking 4 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:25,360 about a book led by Adoptee Anna Lehnardt and she is a transracial adoptee and she'll be helping us 5 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:30,080 discuss the book Selling Transracial Adoption Families, Markets, and the Color Line written 6 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:36,160 by Elizabeth Raleigh. This book was published in 2018 and the author Elizabeth Raleigh is an 7 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:41,680 assistant professor of sociology at Carleton College in Northfield Minnesota. We're so grateful for 8 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:47,920 Anna sharing her point of view and her experience with us in this episode. This book is also a 9 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:53,040 really interesting read. It's a little bit more of like an academic read right where the author 10 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:59,840 Wynne interviewed a bunch of different social workers and agencies and talked about how they 11 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:04,800 were approaching transracial adoption in the United States and so I think it's a really important 12 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:10,640 book. I think it's really helpful and valuable but I would not say that you need to read this 13 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,080 book before you listen to this episode because it's not the kind of book that's going to have 14 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,000 spoilers. Whether or not you've read the book we hope that you listen to this episode and we hope 15 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,560 it's educational for you and if you have different thoughts and perspectives we would love to hear 16 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:28,160 from you too. So you can always reach out to us and we love hearing from adoptees and birth 17 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:33,680 parents especially on our podcast and so if you would like to talk to us for a future episode 18 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,760 please feel free to do so. Okay we'll jump to our conversation with Anna. 19 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,920 We are here on the podcast with Anna Lienart. Anna thank you so much for being here with us. 20 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:52,400 Of course I'm so grateful to be here thank you. Yeah to start off can you tell us a bit about you? 21 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:58,480 Yes um my name is Anna like you said I'm currently an undergraduate at Brigham Young University. 22 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,760 I'm studying family studies human development. I minored in Mandarin Chinese. I'm a transracial 23 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:10,160 adoptee from China. I was adopted when I was two and that's about it. Awesome and then today we're 24 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:15,680 going to be talking about a book called Selling Transracial Adoption Families Markets and the 25 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:23,120 color line written by Elizabeth Raleigh and you're going to help us kind of dissect this book. So 26 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:29,360 to start off how did you feel about this book? I thought it was so interesting. I really appreciated 27 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:35,440 all of the issues that she brought up and that she was so conscious of helping adoptive parents 28 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:43,120 and others know and helping social workers know that she's not passing judgment that this is just 29 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,600 a trend that she's seen and she wasn't trying to be harsh towards anyone so I thought it was a very 30 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:54,240 informative but kind book. That's awesome. All right and so this book talks about a lot of really 31 00:02:54,240 --> 00:03:00,560 heavy but important things. So first let's talk about cultural identity. What challenges do 32 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:06,400 transracial adoptees face regarding their cultural identity? That is a great question. This is something 33 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:13,840 that I struggle with probably every single day. Really I think transracial adoptees don't have a 34 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,760 great basis of knowing who they are especially when they're adopted when they're children. 35 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:23,040 They're taken from their one culture placed in another and are often not given resources to deal 36 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:29,680 with both cultures and so for me I had a lot of experiences growing up where I didn't know am I 37 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:34,560 American Chinese or am I Chinese American? What does that mean? What would that look like? Both 38 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:42,400 versions and today I've come to the point where I pick some days I want to be more Chinese and I 39 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:48,240 like doing listening to Chinese music or cooking Chinese food or being with my Chinese friends and 40 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:53,440 other days I don't want anything to do with it and I'm tired of being well maybe not tired of being 41 00:03:53,440 --> 00:04:00,320 but it's difficult to be perceived as Chinese and I just choose to not focus on that side of me. So 42 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:05,040 it's definitely a battle knowing where you fit in and where you personally feel comfortable. 43 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:11,040 That's so interesting. It sounds like a hard balance to strike. So how does the author suggest 44 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:17,440 that these challenges can be addressed? I think this author really focuses on preparation. She 45 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:25,360 talks a lot about how social workers have a job to help parents understand and manage these 46 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:31,680 relationships. Specifically she thinks that when they are learning when they're first adopting they 47 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:36,720 go through training courses but that these training courses need to be buffered. They need to have more 48 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:42,080 time than the one or two or ten required hours to really understand what race means what it means 49 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:47,040 for their family that they are becoming a transracial family. How does this book address 50 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:54,720 societal views on race and adoption? This like I said earlier this book really just tries to not 51 00:04:54,720 --> 00:05:00,880 judge anyone. I think it's really easy in our society today to focus on the negative aspects 52 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,120 of race or the negative culture that we have towards race and I think she does a good job of 53 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:11,360 saying it's there but it's something that we need to work on but it's not everyone's fault. 54 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:18,160 And so specifically she says that there are a lot of different views. She takes the view of a lot of 55 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:24,560 social workers. She goes and talks to them sees what they understand about race and she says that 56 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:30,080 a lot of social workers notice problems with race or that parents potential adoptive parents 57 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:37,760 make racial comments but that they have to balance having people who are willing to adopt children 58 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:46,000 and having people who are very aware of race and what that means. And so yeah. 59 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:53,680 Yeah that's tricky. Yeah any thoughts on how these perceptions impact adoptees? 60 00:05:53,680 --> 00:06:00,480 I think it's huge. One thing in particular she talks about is that children of different races 61 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:05,440 are seen differently. For example white children are the most wanted in the United States, 62 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:10,560 are the most maybe valued in terms of selling transracial adoption. They're the most valued 63 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,600 children and then come Hispanic and Asian children who are seen as not white entirely 64 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,720 but are like honorary whites and then black children they're split into two categories. 65 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:28,320 One is black like a mixed race black and white children versus black children and black children 66 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,800 and then they split them even further being black children in the United States versus black children 67 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:37,760 internationally. And because there's so many different views of who is considered white, 68 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:44,960 who is not considered white, what mixed race does, that impacts how children see themselves. 69 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:50,400 It impacts what value they think they have and parents pay different amounts for depending on 70 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:55,600 the race of the child and that can impact you growing up right? Was I a child that was worth 71 00:06:55,600 --> 00:07:01,280 more? Am I someone who you got like a discount on if we're talking about this language? Yeah yeah 72 00:07:01,280 --> 00:07:06,880 the practice of race-based pricing at adoption agencies is such a concerning thing and not all 73 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:12,560 agencies practice that but a lot do. And that's one thing we always talk to our listeners about 74 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:17,760 being really careful. We recommend not working with any agencies who practice race-based pricing 75 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:24,320 because it's highly unethical and how is your child going to feel if they find out that you 76 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:30,640 adopted them through these unethical means and with an agency that practices these kinds of things. 77 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:39,760 Yeah all right so what role do adoption agencies play in transracial adoption? They I like to think 78 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:46,640 are the gatekeepers. They're the middle ground. They can say who can adopt and who can adopt. 79 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:53,600 This book also focuses a lot on social workers balancing taking care of children and child 80 00:07:53,600 --> 00:08:01,200 welfare while also balancing parents want to adopt children. And I think that's a very that's a very 81 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:06,240 difficult line and it for me that feels like a very case-by-case situation. But this book 82 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:11,520 talks about the history of adoption started as really wanting to find a place for children 83 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:18,320 but now it is how can we find children for parents. So this change in perspective impacts how 84 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:25,760 adoption works in the United States today. They are really catering to parents. 85 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:32,800 That's such an important thing to point out because when agencies are focused on finding 86 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:37,520 children for parents instead of just focusing on the children and what these children need 87 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:44,880 then it changes right. It becomes an economic exchange and it changes how we see children 88 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:50,640 being adopted. It changes how we see their birth families and it might change how people go about 89 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:56,800 finding children to adopt and it can lead to really unethical practices. Like we've talked with a woman 90 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:03,120 before who her mother took her to an orphanage in a different country where it's very commonplace 91 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:08,640 to take kids to orphanages as like a sort of foster care like respite care. And she was going 92 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:13,040 to come back in a couple weeks. She came back and her child had been adopted by a family in the United States. 93 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:20,880 And was gone and she had never consented to it. She came back and it was years later when they were 94 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:27,360 able to reunify that this daughter found out that her mother didn't ever approve of this adoption in 95 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:35,040 the first place. Yeah so when we lose focus on what's best for the child and focusing on child needs 96 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:42,640 it can get really hairy and that's when we're in trouble I think. I agree. I also feel like those 97 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:48,560 in adoption agencies have to balance the price right. Like do they pay. They have to stay in 98 00:09:48,560 --> 00:09:53,920 business to be able to help more children but what is the limit right. What is the limit of 99 00:09:53,920 --> 00:10:00,720 being able to stay in business. And Elizabeth Raleigh mentions that a lot of these social workers say 100 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,760 in theory we would love it if our adoption agency closed. That would be the end goal right. If we 101 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:11,600 don't need adoption agencies anymore. But despite their like beliefs and hopes for this happening 102 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:17,040 they have to keep their business working. They have to have a job. They have to help more children. 103 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:23,040 And so it's a very it's a tightrope. Yeah it's really challenging. So do you think adoption 104 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:27,840 agencies are doing enough to prepare families for the unique challenges they might face with 105 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:34,640 transracial adoption. I'm gonna be honest I have not even been to an agency. I haven't visited one. 106 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:39,600 I haven't talked to people. So my knowledge is probably very limited. It's based a lot in this 107 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:47,760 book. So my little caveat. But from what I know I feel like they are doing what they can the best 108 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:53,040 they know how. But there is a lot of improvement that needs to happen. While I was reading through 109 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:58,800 this book I felt like a lot of social workers understood that there was a gap in what they 110 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:04,640 were doing to help families understand race. I think especially in terms of race a lot of social 111 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:11,840 workers aren't aware. In one part of the book they say that many of these social workers get on the 112 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:16,640 job training on for how to have conversations about race. Which is something very difficult to 113 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:22,480 bring up. And so I think there's not enough training in that area for social workers. If 114 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:27,520 they're getting on the job training I don't think that's good enough training. And they also like 115 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:34,640 we said before are balancing the market versus child welfare. And so they are more likely to, 116 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:39,840 according to this book in general, right? They're more likely to downplay race and more likely to 117 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:44,800 downplay any disabilities or problems that these children might have in order to sell, 118 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:50,240 quote, you know, sell more children. And so I think they're doing a lot of good things but I think 119 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:55,440 there's a lot more that could be done to have it more equitable, to have it more ethical, and to 120 00:11:55,440 --> 00:12:00,240 have them just be more aware and more trained in how to have these conversations. Yeah that's so 121 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,880 well said. I think that's so important and it's so hard because it's going to take a lot to get 122 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:11,600 there. I agree. It's so important. So how did the authors discuss the intersection of race and adoption? 123 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:19,920 They talk about how there's a lot of stereotypes happening with race. And like we mentioned, 124 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:24,320 right, there's different prices for different children and they talk about maybe it's not 125 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:30,960 inherent but there is some sense with people of, oh, like I don't want to adopt a child from this 126 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:36,560 area or I don't want to adopt a child who is black from the United States because of any, 127 00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:41,680 because of previous racial bias, but they're super willing to adopt a child who is black, 128 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:49,200 who is from an international country like Ethiopia. They also talk about race in terms of who is 129 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:54,560 considered white, who is considered not white, what that means for the family. And so children are 130 00:12:55,200 --> 00:13:04,480 growing up with not knowing what their racial standing is. For example, my parents are very 131 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:11,440 young. For example, my parents didn't have any training from social workers about being a trans 132 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:18,800 racial family and what it means to adopt an Asian child. And so I grew up not knowing how to balance 133 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:25,920 and how to talk about race and how to talk about any experiences that I had. And it was really 134 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:30,080 painful. I went through a lot of painful experiences. Another thing that's not talked 135 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:35,600 about but relates to race and adoption is that children in different countries, children who 136 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:40,400 are trans racially adopted are given subsidies from the government if they are a child of a 137 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:45,120 different race. And so I think that continues the idea, right, that there is a division, 138 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,760 there is something happening with the way that we view children of different races and that that's 139 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:55,040 a problem. And it's not okay to look at a child differently because of the way they look and to 140 00:13:55,040 --> 00:14:01,520 discriminate who they want to pick to be their child. Yeah. So this is such an important 141 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:06,880 conversation. I feel like it's really challenging, right? Because there are so many factors that go 142 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:13,520 into families trying to decide what they're able to handle. There's like extended family members 143 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:20,560 who might be racist. And how do you feel like people can address this in a way where they're 144 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:29,920 focusing on the child and what's going to be best for the child? That is a really good question. 145 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:39,120 And I think it requires a lot of listening and a lot of time and a lot of patience and a lot of 146 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:47,120 humility. I think as has been mentioned, it is a difficult topic. It's a heavy topic. But one, 147 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:54,400 keeping in check your biases, understanding why am I adopting, why am I maybe not adopting children 148 00:14:54,400 --> 00:15:00,320 of this race? What would be the issues, right? I think there is some sense of wanting to protect 149 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,800 your child from not having adverse experiences, right? You know it would be difficult to raise a 150 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:10,960 black child in a completely white neighborhood. But knowing how can we change that environment? 151 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:18,480 How can we help our neighbors improve? How can we help our family improve? In social science, 152 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:25,040 there's intersectionality theorists, right? Who talk about how both areas have to change when 153 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:30,400 someone's... Because we have so many different intersections in our own lives, for example, 154 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:36,640 me being Asian and in a white community and being a woman, there's a lot of intersections. 155 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:42,480 But that changes every environment that I'm in. And so knowing how can this community change if 156 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:48,080 we bring a trans-racial child into this environment? Also, how can they change it? How can they make 157 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:53,280 the world better? So I think one, understanding your own bias. Two, understanding what this could 158 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:59,120 mean for the child. And then three, knowing that they're very resilient, that everyone is resilient 159 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,920 and that the only way, I think, not the only way, but a great way to change conversations is to 160 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:10,240 include more diversity in the places that we're at. I love that. Thank you so much. All right. So 161 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:16,160 what are some of the emotional or psychological impacts highlighted in this book for both adoptees 162 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:27,200 and their families? One really large impact is that children are not having the needs met who 163 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:32,880 are transracially adopted. They are growing up in neighborhoods and in communities and with families 164 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:38,320 where people are racist, where there's microaggressions, and they're not taught with 165 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:45,360 how to manage and to deal with these feelings. Parents are unprepared for these conversations 166 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:50,960 and it's painful. It's very painful and I think it's scarring and it leads to a lot of resentment. 167 00:16:53,200 --> 00:17:00,160 Additionally, I think their families, they don't realize what's going on. And so they, 168 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:06,960 like parents and siblings can live in a little bit of a bliss. And that's also additionally painful 169 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:11,360 for adoptees because they feel like they're alone in their experiences and they can't tell anyone 170 00:17:11,360 --> 00:17:18,160 and no one in their family would understand. It's so hard. So how do you think awareness 171 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:23,600 of these challenges can lead to better support systems? I think awareness of these impacts can 172 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:30,480 help children and adults, transversal adults, get the resources that they need. Specifically, 173 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:36,640 I would love to see more therapists, family therapists, and individual therapists that are 174 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:42,960 focused on adoption, that are focused on ambiguous loss, that are focused on race, dealing with race, 175 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:50,160 dealing with identity, and really just learning more about what adoptees experience is huge. 176 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,720 And even in the social science research, there's not very much about adoption, especially not a 177 00:17:54,720 --> 00:18:00,000 lot about transracial adoptions. And even more for me, there's not very much about Asian 178 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:07,520 transracial adoptees. And right now, currently, the adoption research is focusing on adults and 179 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:13,680 how their outcomes, what their outcomes are. And I think there's a lot we don't know about their 180 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:19,280 mental health or physical health, about what has happened living in an environment that is completely 181 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:26,880 out of what you maybe would have originally been raised in. Yeah. So which personal stories or 182 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:33,920 anecdotes from this book resonated with you the most? I really think it was important that in this 183 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:43,600 book that they, I feel like Elizabeth Raleigh did a really great job of focusing on the experiences 184 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:49,440 of social workers. Like she said in the beginning of her book, this is a not very listened to group 185 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:56,240 of people, their experiences, they have to balance a lot. So specifically, I think her stories of 186 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:03,280 talking to these social workers was impactful for me. I especially was shocked by some of the 187 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:10,000 stories talking about when they were vetting candidates to adopt adoptive families, that they 188 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:17,440 that they push aside maybe any racist comments or any fears that these families had, and still 189 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:23,680 allowed them to adopt because they needed to have adoptions to continue their business model. 190 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:30,160 That really shocked me because I would assume that social workers have to really balance, right? What 191 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:37,120 is best for the child? What is best for this family? But they just put it aside. And not to say 192 00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:42,400 that I wouldn't do the same thing if I was in their situation. I have no idea what that is like. 193 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:48,880 But I do think that was drawing for me to think that there was maybe less backbone in these 194 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:54,560 situations and less moral. I don't know the right word for that. Less integrity and yeah. 195 00:19:54,560 --> 00:20:01,920 Less integrity in these situations. My parents are incredible and they've been very supportive 196 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:10,720 in my adoption and my socialization to my community. But I can't imagine being with a parent 197 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:17,040 that who is outright racist and has a lot of microaggressions and to grow up in that 198 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,720 environment and know that they could have been barred from being my parents. 199 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:28,720 So wild. Well, and I feel like even today there's so many adoptive parents who struggle not 200 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:36,640 understanding how being colorblind can be a real challenge and how that's not really a thing. 201 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:43,040 And how trying to be colorblind can harm children, transracial adoptees. 202 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,520 Yeah. Yes. I think I've even had my parents say to me and they're, like I said, they're very 203 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:52,080 wonderful. I've had my parents say, oh, we just see you as our daughter. We don't see you as Asian. 204 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,360 We don't see you as Chinese or any of these things. We just see you as our daughter, 205 00:20:55,360 --> 00:21:00,640 which is, yes, that's great. But also that's a huge part of me. That is a part of me that 206 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:06,640 everyone sees no matter where I go, if I want it or not. I am seen as Asian and I am seen as Chinese. 207 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:13,360 And to hear that from a parent figure is pretty painful. It's like a denial of part of who you are. 208 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:21,440 And I just feel like not being able to confront that and having social workers, 209 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:29,040 not being able to realize how harmful that is later in life is is bad. Yeah. Yeah. 210 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:35,440 Well, and it's again, just failing to recognize what children need and what adoptees need. 211 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:41,840 Yeah. Yeah. All right. So how does Elizabeth Rowley critique the current adoption system? 212 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:49,600 I think our main critique is that it is a market. It is not something really focused on welfare. 213 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:57,520 It's not focused on helping families per se. It is very much a market system. And the people in 214 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:02,960 the middle, the social workers who have to balance everything, they get caught up in the market talk 215 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:09,280 and in the market criteria as well. I think that was for me, her main point is that it is really a 216 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:15,920 selling of children because there's different market prices. There's different, yeah, because 217 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:22,000 there's different market prices for children. And that is not okay. It should not be a market. It 218 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:27,280 should not be. There should not be different prices in my opinion. Yeah. Agreed. Based on 219 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,760 the discussion in this book, what do you envision for the future of transracial adoption? 220 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:45,600 I envision a lot of support. I think community is so important for people to feel like they belong, 221 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,520 to feel like they have a place for someone to listen to them, someone to be there for them. 222 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:59,200 And I would love to see more integrity in social workers, more integrity in adoptive parents, 223 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:10,800 and in the adoption agencies themselves, right? Like having conversations in situations where race 224 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:16,640 isn't on the back burner, but it's on its front and center. And if parents aren't able, don't think 225 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,120 that they're able to have those conversations, then they shouldn't be adopting children who are 226 00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:26,400 transracial. It's not about your wants and needs as much as you think it is. Okay, that's a little 227 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:32,320 too harsh. Okay. But it's true. I agree. I don't think it's too harsh. Okay. So it isn't about 228 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:38,000 parents' wants and needs. That is important and it is difficult to not be able to have children and 229 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:43,680 have infertility, but essentially you are taking someone and shaping and impacting every aspect of 230 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:49,920 their life without their permission and without their consent. And so there should be a lot more, 231 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:56,800 I think, for transracial adoptees, education, community support. But I do believe that people 232 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:02,880 of different races, for example, my parents, Caucasian parents, they can very happily and 233 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:08,080 very successfully raise a child who is of a different race. But I think it's important in 234 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:13,280 how we do that. Yeah. Yeah. Doing it in an informed and child-centric way. I love that. 235 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:20,000 How do the themes in selling transracial adoption relate to the broader societal issues of race and 236 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:25,920 belonging? And can you draw parallels with current events or movements? My professor at Brigham 237 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:31,360 Mellon University who studies adoption always says that adoption is the best way to understand 238 00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:38,080 what is actually going on in the world and how people are fit or unfit and how children are fit 239 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:45,200 or unfit. And I think it is a really great window to understanding our racial biases in general as 240 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:51,840 a nation. For me, having the understanding that Asian children and Hispanic children are honorary 241 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:57,520 whites, that there's a difference between Black children and international Black children and 242 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:05,520 mixed children and the pricing among them defines for me what we see today in society. 243 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:10,480 That sometimes Asians are held on a pedestal and sometimes they aren't. And sometimes Black people 244 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:15,200 are, if they're from international countries, are held on a pedestal. And if they're from here, 245 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:20,720 they're not. And I think that's a huge issue that we are seeing people for the color of their skin 246 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:27,920 rather than really getting to know them as people. But also it's important to know that they have 247 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:34,000 different experiences because of the way they look. And there's a lot of ignoring going on. 248 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:39,200 I think there's a lot of ignoring and there's a lot of justification for how people treat others. 249 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:46,800 And so while I think in this book, they talk about selling children, I think in our own society, 250 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:52,560 we have things that are similar. And instead of selling, it happens with who can get jobs and who 251 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:59,600 can't get jobs and who can work somewhere and who can't and who is more trustworthy in an academic 252 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:07,920 setting versus who is not trustworthy. Even on the streets, right? We see these stereotypes play out 253 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:15,280 in our current society. So what were your biggest takeaways from this book? My biggest takeaway from 254 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:21,200 this book is that it, adoption, okay, my biggest takeaway from the book is that adoption is 255 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:29,280 complicated and that we need to be paying attention a lot more to the nuance that adoption 256 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:35,280 brings, especially for transracial adoptees. I really am grateful that she brought to light 257 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:42,240 that these issues and that it is a marketplace and that it is not great in the way that parents are 258 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:48,800 trained and are educated, but that there is something that we can do about it. I think for me, 259 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:54,960 being a young, you know, undergraduate, being aware of these issues helps me feel hope that I can make 260 00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:01,280 a difference and that I can make the academic world and the actual world better because I 261 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,280 understand that there's something going wrong and that we want something to be better. 262 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,880 I love that so much. Anna, thank you so much for being here and for teaching us and talking about 263 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:15,440 this book. It's a really impactful book. Who would you recommend this book to most? Thank you so much 264 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:22,240 for having me on here. I'm really so grateful to share my thoughts and to really understand her 265 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:30,640 perspective more. If I was to share this book with someone, I think, one, social workers, two, 266 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:36,480 parents, and for me as an adoptee, it was very informative but also a little bit sad. So 267 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:42,880 sparingly for adoptees. It's fantastic. Well, thank you so much for being here and we'll talk 268 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,800 to you on the podcast again soon. Yay, can't wait. Thanks. Bye. Thank you. 269 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:55,120 Thanks so much to Anna for her willingness to meet with us and share her perspective. 270 00:27:55,120 --> 00:28:01,840 There are so many aspects to consider when adopting and even when interacting with others 271 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:07,680 in adoption relationships. And for transracial adoptees, there are so many complexities. So I 272 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:14,160 just am really grateful for any opportunity I have to hear from adoptees, especially transracial 273 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:20,480 adoptees, to help me understand their experience. Absolutely. Me too. And I also feel like this 274 00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:28,880 discussion is a really great way to start dialogue about some of these challenges in adoption 275 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:34,880 management, right? Like how adoption agencies are run, how adoption laws and policies are operating 276 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:40,640 right now, what is working well, what needs to change. I think there's a lot of room for improvement 277 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:48,000 and I think that this was a great discussion to start that dialogue and start thinking about what 278 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:53,760 we can be advocating for, what might need to change. Yeah, and I know that that invitation 279 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:59,920 may sound like huge, like what can I do? And I think, especially for adoptive parents, it 280 00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:10,000 really falls on us to hold agencies accountable for ethical practices, making sure that if you 281 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:15,840 don't feel right about something, saying something and don't work with an agency that's going to be 282 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:20,720 operating in ways that are unethical because you want to have that clear conscience, right? 283 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:26,160 When you talk to your child one day about their adoption and they want to know the logistics 284 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:32,480 about the agency or like they have questions about how their birth family was treated, you want to 285 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:38,080 have a clear conscience that you've been working with an ethical and reputable agency. And so yeah, 286 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:47,280 I think, I mean, it's kind of icky, right? Because it's, this whole conversation is about how adoption 287 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:54,240 is kind of this economical, economic exchange. And that's kind of yucky, right? Like no one wants 288 00:29:54,240 --> 00:30:01,680 to think about a child or a person being marketed or sold. But the way that agencies do operate 289 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:07,200 right now, it sometimes feels like that. And we want to make sure that we're advocating for child 290 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:12,080 centered practices and policies, that we're making sure that birth families are being taken care of 291 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:17,760 and ethically treated, that they're truly presented with all of their options and that they're 292 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:23,920 supported in whatever they decide. And so, yeah, just a challenge, I think, from this episode and 293 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:32,720 a call to action is for us to try to look inside ourselves and see what we're doing, that we need 294 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:38,080 to change or improve, like what we're supporting. Is it ethical? Do we feel like we have a clear 295 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:44,000 conscience about it? Or is there something we can change and improve? Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you 296 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,080 again to Anna for being willing to be with us today. And thank you for listening. We're so 297 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:53,760 grateful for you and wish you a happy Thanksgiving if you're listening to this when it drops. 298 00:30:53,760 --> 00:31:09,120 And the United States at least. Yeah. And we'll be back in your newsfeed soon. 299 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:31,120 Thank you.