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Welcome to the Open Adoption Project.

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This is episode 115.

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We're the Nelsons.

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I'm Shaun.

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And I'm Lanette.

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And today we are really excited to have

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another installment in our National Adoption Month series

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where we are doing book clubs.

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So every week we are talking about a different adoption

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related book with an adoptee hosting our discussion.

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Yeah, in today's episode we have an interview

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with Sharolyn Swenson.

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And Sharolyn is an adoptee, a friend, a neighbor of ours.

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And I think Lanette may even say this

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in the beginning of their conversation,

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but Sharolyn was the first adoptee

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that we interviewed on the podcast several years ago.

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And her episode is fantastic.

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If you have not listened to it, check it out.

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It's great.

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Yeah, there's good twists and turns in her story.

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And yeah, she's vulnerable in the experience she shares.

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Yep, we love her.

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And we're really excited to talk to her

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about the book Orphan Train written by Christina Baker

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Klein.

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And so we're just going to jump into that

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and hear what she has to say about that book.

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So we are here on the podcast with Sharolyn Swenson.

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We're going to talk about the book Orphan Train

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by Christina Baker Klein.

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We're really excited to have you back on the show, Sharolyn.

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Thank you for being here.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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So Sharolyn, I'm pretty sure you

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were the first adoptee we ever interviewed for the podcast.

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And you have one of our most listened to episodes as well.

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Wow, I guess.

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If you look at our history.

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It's probably because I tell everybody to listen to it.

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I'm glad you do.

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It's a great episode.

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I love your episode.

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So we're definitely referring anyone

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who hasn't heard your story back to that episode.

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But for now, can you tell us a bit about your adoption story,

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a bit about you?

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So I was adopted in New York City.

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And I was six weeks old when I was adopted.

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My birth mother was 17 when she had me.

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And she was a student at NYU.

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My adopted mother was pregnant and didn't

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tell the adoption agency.

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So six months later, I had sisters, twin sisters.

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So my brother was older.

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And then my younger twin sisters.

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Fast forward, I was about 32.

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And my parents had always had a file about my adoption

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because my parents believed that I

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should know where I came from.

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And on one of the pieces of paper

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they saved was my birth name that the lawyers had

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accidentally sent them.

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And so I had a friend who was helping her husband find

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his birth mother.

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And she was having a hard time because it

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was a very common name.

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So I told her my birth name.

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And it's an extremely rare name.

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And that's the way I found my birth mother, who

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told me that somebody was my birth father, which

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it turned out five years later, I found out after DNA

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that my birth father was not my birth father.

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And I had another birth father.

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So that's a brief story.

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And yeah, check out the full one.

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But yes, it's a good synopsis.

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All right, and then you grew up in a home

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where you had parents who wanted you

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to know all of your information about your heritage.

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And so did your family talk about adoption openly as well?

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Yes.

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They always would say, oh, we chose you.

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And they would talk about how hard it

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must have been for my mother, but she was so young,

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to give me up.

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And yeah, we talked about it whenever I had a question.

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And because my sisters were only six months younger than me,

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it also was never a mystery to anyone.

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So my parents never tried to hide it.

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We never tried to hide it.

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It was just normal.

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And it wasn't some big secret like a lot of people my age.

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I'm 57.

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So people born in the late 60s, it

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was a secret, and no one wanted to talk about it.

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Yeah, I love that your parents broke that norm.

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It feels like that went better for you

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than maybe for others who didn't have that openness.

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It definitely did.

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Yeah, good.

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You went.

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All right, so we are going to talk today

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about the book Orphan Train.

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So would you mind sharing maybe what

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you think a good summary of the book would be?

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Like, just brief, nothing crazy.

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So we have two stories going on.

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One is about a girl whose name changes several times.

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She's an Irish.

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She eventually becomes an orphan and is

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part of the orphan train.

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And then we have somebody in present day named

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Molly who is a foster child and is being raised in the foster

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system.

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And so eventually, the Irish girl whose name eventually

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becomes Vivian meets up with this girl

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because the girl is helping her.

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And the book goes through both of their stories,

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mainly about me, Dorothy, Vivian, which are her names.

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But we learned a little bit about what

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orphan trains were like and what happened to people

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on the orphan trains.

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Yeah, and the orphan train era is really interesting to me

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because I feel like it was paved with these great intentions.

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But in practice, it didn't always go so well.

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So even though this book is fiction,

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I feel like it's a really interesting portrayal

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of this time in history that I didn't know about until just

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a couple of years ago.

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I'm so surprised to learn about it.

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Yeah.

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I heard a little bit about it.

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And it was interesting because last night, I

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was telling my husband just a little bit about it.

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And he was horrified.

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It feels like people being auctioned and then being

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used as slaves or glorified servants.

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There were a lot of issues.

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And it started out as something that

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was meant to help the children.

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But I think a lot of times, it didn't.

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Yeah, which is heartbreaking.

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So how do you think your perspective as an adoptee

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impacted the way that you experienced this book?

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I think there were a few things.

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I think the name changes bothered me.

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Everybody just thinking, well, now I have this girl.

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And so I can change your name to what I wanted to be.

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Erase her history.

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Yes, erase her history of the past.

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And that was bothersome to me.

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I think with Molly's story, it was particularly

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bothersome to me because it was all about money.

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But that also applied to some of Vivian's situations.

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And it just made me think of people

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that I've met whose adoption stories didn't have

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to do with someone wanting a child and to be a parent.

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It was more about them being a savior.

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And you see that all the time where people say,

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oh, I'm going to have a couple of children

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and then adopt a few.

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And it's always because they're going to save someone

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instead of offering some, I don't know.

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Yeah, there's a huge problem in the adoption community

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with adoptive parents or prospective adoptive parents

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not understanding the problems with that saviorism kind

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of role in adoption.

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And how it's really not healthy for a child

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to be adopted with those reasons.

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I'm always surprised when people

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say that their parents said, you should thank me.

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And I have the opposite experience

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that my parents were always thanking me

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and thanking my birth mother.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, that's a good thing to bring up, though.

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It's, I think, becoming less common, I hope.

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But I hope that people are recognizing that that's not

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a healthy thing to put on any child.

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Yeah.

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I also think in this book, you see the different situations

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that adopted children can go into.

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And for me, it's always a struggle

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when I hear people talk about their situations

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to kind of figure out how much of it

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is normal that we just grow up and we all

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have lives that have crazy things that happen to us.

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We have trauma.

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And how much of it is based on the fact that we're adopted.

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Trying to figure that out is always interesting reading.

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Yeah.

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So interesting.

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Probably impossible to completely know,

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but really an interesting thing to bring up.

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I have heard a lot of people talking recently

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about how in adoption, it's a different life, right?

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You're not getting a better life necessarily,

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but it's a different life.

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And just recognizing that we really can't ever know.

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Yeah, I think even at my age sometimes,

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when I'm going to sleep or whatever, I just think,

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oh, I wonder what it would have been like if I would have been

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with this other family, because I know my birth parents.

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How would that have been different from the life I had?

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And neither of them seemed like they were terrible.

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They just were different.

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I think that's how things often are.

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It's just so gray that it's hard to have a definitive black

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and white where it's like, oh, yeah, this is definitely better.

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It's just so hard to know.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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All right, so the minister in New York City

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who started the orphan train movement,

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his name was Charles Lauren Brace.

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He was quoted as saying, when a child of the streets

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stands before you, you cannot, in rags with a tears in face,

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you cannot easily forget him.

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And yet you are perplexed what to do.

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The human soul is difficult to interfere with.

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You hesitate how far you should go.

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So based on what you know about orphan trains,

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how do you feel?

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Do you feel like it went too far, this movement trying

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to help these kids who were without homes?

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What could have been done better?

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I think one of the differences from what we have today

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is that homes are studied.

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And it's not just drop a child off and see, oh, who shows up,

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and we don't know what their intentions are.

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Because throughout this book, you

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see how there are different parents that

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have different intentions for the children

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and different home wives.

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And I think that's a little bit different today.

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But I also think it was probably horrible to be

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on the streets in New York City, homeless, without food

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and someone to care for them, or to be in an orphanage

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where you didn't have that one-on-one contact

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with a parent.

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You had no bonds, really.

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So I don't know what the answer was.

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And I hope that in today's world,

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we have better answers than they did then.

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Yeah, I mean, it's a small thing.

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But I think home studies are a huge improvement now.

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When I hear people complain about the process, I'm like,

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but aren't you so glad that this is in place,

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that we're hopefully being more careful about who

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is bringing these kids home?

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So why do you think Vivian waited to share her secret?

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I'm trying to not spoil things too much.

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Of course, people know that there might be spoilers

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in this episode.

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There will be.

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But why do you think she waited to share her big secret

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until when she did?

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It was a really long time.

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And how can the adoption community

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maybe combat some of the shame and stigma

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that might get in the way of sharing secrets like that?

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I think you just answered the question, which

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is there was a lot of shame and a lot of stigma.

265
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And I think it took a while for her to trust Molly

266
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,120
to share what had happened in her life.

267
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:16,720
And as they unpack or organize the boxes, this story unfolds.

268
00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:23,280
And just a lot of shame, because I myself

269
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,000
remember when I was a teenager thinking,

270
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,480
oh, if I ever got pregnant, I don't

271
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,120
think I could give a baby up for adoption,

272
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,560
because I don't want to have this cycle that, oh, we

273
00:12:35,560 --> 00:12:37,720
have children and give them away all the time.

274
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:42,800
And so I think having had her life

275
00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,680
and then knowing that she had to trust the child to somebody

276
00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:48,760
else had to be pretty hard.

277
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:49,840
Yeah.

278
00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:51,600
Well, I feel like sharing it with Molly,

279
00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,920
it makes sense, because they both shared experiences

280
00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,880
as adoptees or children who were in these challenging

281
00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:58,120
situations.

282
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,080
But also, I imagine it was harder

283
00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,480
to share that with maybe that fear of shame and stigma.

284
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,680
And so I loved Molly's response.

285
00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:13,080
I thought that it was really compassionate.

286
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:18,960
Yeah, so were you surprised by Molly's reaction to that?

287
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:19,720
I think so.

288
00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,560
I mean, I think that you would think

289
00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:27,920
that coming from someone who had been going from home to home,

290
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:32,000
she would think more on the lines of the person,

291
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,920
of the child than of the mother.

292
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,360
But she did seem to show compassion for the mom.

293
00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:37,360
Yeah, I was surprised.

294
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,400
It was very mature, seemingly to me.

295
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:40,720
Yeah.

296
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,240
And then were you surprised by Vivian's decision

297
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,040
to relinquish that child?

298
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,000
I was very surprised by that decision.

299
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,080
I don't think in the same situation I probably would have.

300
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,240
But I think that's kind of what we learn with adoption,

301
00:13:55,240 --> 00:14:00,360
is we can't be too judgmental of the decisions.

302
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,320
But I thought it was interesting that she

303
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,480
didn't think she had the capability to love someone,

304
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,080
because she hadn't had a lot of love in her life.

305
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:11,600
Yeah.

306
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:12,400
Yeah.

307
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,160
That was heartbreaking.

308
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,960
Well, and it made me wonder how often

309
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:18,520
these things are cyclical.

310
00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:23,360
You talked about where we didn't feel love,

311
00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,320
and then maybe don't feel like we can give love,

312
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,360
and it becomes a cycle of challenging situations.

313
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:30,680
I don't know.

314
00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:35,800
I think sometimes people don't have that mirror in their lives

315
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,960
where somebody's mirrored how to handle situations

316
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,960
and how to bond with people.

317
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:43,600
Yeah.

318
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,880
Well, that broke my heart, that entire section.

319
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,840
So I already mentioned this a little bit,

320
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,640
but Molly supported Vivian's reunion.

321
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,960
And she also wasn't really interested already

322
00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,400
in having her own reunion.

323
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:06,200
So do you have any thoughts on maybe how readiness for reunion

324
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,200
or timing for knowing when it's right, how adoptees can figure

325
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:11,480
that out?

326
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,240
I think if you're not involved in an open adoption

327
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:19,520
when you've known from the beginning,

328
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,480
it's really a mystery about why your parents gave you up.

329
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,560
And adoptive parents try to tell you a story,

330
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,760
but they don't really know the answer.

331
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:37,120
And they don't know how the birth parents handled it

332
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:42,320
later in life as they had to deal with the separation.

333
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:47,200
So I feel like when we're searching for birth parents,

334
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,240
you need to be old enough to be able to handle it,

335
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,240
because some people do get rejection.

336
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,000
And rejection is really hard, especially

337
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,560
if you think that you're searching

338
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,080
for the one person who's going to be that person who

339
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:05,160
loves you in your life.

340
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:06,680
Yeah, and help you feel whole.

341
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:08,440
Yeah, help make you feel whole.

342
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,240
And so I think going into it knowing,

343
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,360
realizing that there can be good and there

344
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:16,640
can be bad reunions.

345
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,560
And I had good, then bad, then good.

346
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,360
I've had mixed, because it's like any other relationship.

347
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,720
You just get to know people.

348
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,920
And sometimes it works out.

349
00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,880
But I've heard some heart-wrenching stories

350
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:33,120
of people that it didn't.

351
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,760
And if you don't have that maturity

352
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:41,160
and you're not ready for that outcome, that

353
00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,080
could be disappointing.

354
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,400
I also understand, though, at least having medical histories

355
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,360
and things like that are important, too.

356
00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,520
Yeah.

357
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,440
It's such a challenging thing to navigate.

358
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,720
And I agree, I think, that it was really mature

359
00:16:58,720 --> 00:16:59,800
that Molly recognized.

360
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,440
Maybe she wasn't quite ready for that.

361
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,120
And we don't know.

362
00:17:04,120 --> 00:17:07,760
Maybe down the road she will be.

363
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,240
So I would love to talk more about communication

364
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,560
and adoptive families and how that can impact and adopt

365
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:16,640
these experience.

366
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,240
Just speaking from your own experience

367
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,840
and then looking at these experiences in this book

368
00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,600
and seeing how communication or lack of communication

369
00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,200
might play out in different adoptive families.

370
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:33,720
So in my family, being adopted was not a secret.

371
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:35,360
And we talked about it.

372
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:42,800
And I was in a family where it was OK to ask questions

373
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:50,040
and to be encouraged to show your feelings.

374
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:55,440
So for the most part, I mean, my parents weren't perfect.

375
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,920
But they did love me, which I think

376
00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:04,040
is a really important part of communication and people.

377
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,280
And not going with fear, because I

378
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,440
remember I had one friend who didn't find out

379
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,800
she was adopted until she was like,

380
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,720
she graduated about 18, 19 years old.

381
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,560
And she really had such a hard time dealing with it.

382
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:21,840
Because I feel like when you keep things a secret,

383
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:23,680
you're saying there's something wrong with it.

384
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,800
And I think that can be anything in the family.

385
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,040
When you hide things from each other,

386
00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,520
then you're saying there's something really wrong instead

387
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:39,120
of saying whatever it is, this happened,

388
00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:40,960
and this is how I dealt with it.

389
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,320
Or this is how this person's dealing with it.

390
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,400
And just that recognition that no one's perfect,

391
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:51,280
but how are we going to get through this?

392
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,360
But I think fear is a big reason why people

393
00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:57,040
don't communicate very well.

394
00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,320
I think that's so insightful.

395
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,040
And I feel like today with adoption,

396
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,040
it seems like we're doing better.

397
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:08,840
We're not maybe as fearful of talking about adoption.

398
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,920
But in other areas, I think it's still a struggle.

399
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:14,840
With embryo adoption, we've been talking

400
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,080
on the podcast about how a lot of people

401
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,520
who are conceived using assisted reproductive technology

402
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,720
don't find out until they're 16, 17, 18, right?

403
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,040
It's like history just repeating itself

404
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,000
a little bit differently.

405
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,440
I see that on a lot of sites that have to do with DNA.

406
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,040
That all of a sudden they're like, this doesn't make any sense.

407
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:36,760
Why doesn't it make sense?

408
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,680
But on the communication, I just have this other thought too,

409
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,280
is that we need to be careful in how we communicate it,

410
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,040
even to our friends and to other people.

411
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,680
Because we do need to deal with all of our feelings.

412
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,640
But if there's a lot of negative feelings

413
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,120
and you're sharing it, I think that's also hard on the child.

414
00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:01,160
So I think finding the right people to communicate with

415
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:09,280
and being, I don't know, recognizing the child's feelings.

416
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:10,640
Yeah.

417
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:11,440
Yeah, I love that.

418
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,760
And letting the child guide those discussions.

419
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,200
Yeah, I love that.

420
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,560
So what did you most relate to in this book?

421
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:27,680
What themes were most resonating with you?

422
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:37,720
I think probably it was the, for me, I found out later in life

423
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:43,480
that I was Jewish, and I'm also half Croatian, or quarter

424
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:44,920
Croatian and quarter English.

425
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,040
And I know, basically, in American society,

426
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,080
you know a lot about English culture, and I've lived there.

427
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:57,240
But I feel like this disconnect, like I

428
00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,240
don't know what it means to be Jewish

429
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,520
or to have these certain holidays,

430
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,560
or to even like the whole Jewish experience.

431
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:10,320
Whereas I think that's what happened,

432
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:17,480
like when both of these, Molly and Vivian, are adopted,

433
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,480
it's their whole entire heritage is cut off from them.

434
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,800
And so Molly doesn't understand,

435
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,040
remember enough about being Native American and all

436
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:28,480
of the culture that goes with it.

437
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,400
She talks a little bit about it.

438
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,440
And Vivian, her whole Irish culture

439
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,000
is sort of erased from her.

440
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,880
People didn't want her to be Irish anymore.

441
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:41,800
Now you're with me, and you're going

442
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,680
to be what I want you to be.

443
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,320
And so I think that kind of resonates with me,

444
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,280
I think that feeling that we have of where did we come from

445
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,440
and what does it mean.

446
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,760
So that's probably what resonated the most with me.

447
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:56,480
Yeah.

448
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,200
Well, and no matter how much you communicated

449
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,280
with your adoptive family about adoption,

450
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,400
they couldn't help you find those answers

451
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,480
until you found your birth family.

452
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,400
And so that's a really important aspect, I think,

453
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,360
to talk about.

454
00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:15,480
How do we help adoptives feel that connection

455
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,320
to their culture and heritage?

456
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:18,880
And I think it's even more profound

457
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,440
when it's interracial adoption and things, which

458
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:23,600
wasn't the case for me.

459
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:24,800
But it is.

460
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,800
It's like you almost feel like you don't belong anywhere

461
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,920
because you're not really part of this culture

462
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,880
or you're not part of that one because you're

463
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,160
straddled the two.

464
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:36,880
Yeah, that's so hard.

465
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:37,360
Yeah.

466
00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:39,840
Mm.

467
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,120
Yeah, thank you for sharing that.

468
00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:45,320
All right, so overall, would you recommend this book?

469
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,520
Do you feel like it's worth reading?

470
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,480
I think it's a good book to read.

471
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,520
It's an interesting story.

472
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:56,960
But I think it's one of those things where somebody

473
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,080
threw everything in the kitchen sink in there.

474
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,360
This is all the different possibilities of things

475
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:03,240
that could happen in one person's story.

476
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,800
So you just have to recognize, OK, this

477
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,920
is a little bit unrealistic that they

478
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:10,800
would be put in all these different situations

479
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,960
at the same time.

480
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:19,120
But it is a good introduction to this is what orphan trains are.

481
00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:20,440
This is what it was like.

482
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:29,440
And I think she really did tie into that cultural disconnect

483
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:34,920
that people have and a little bit into how adoption can

484
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:41,000
be fraught with people with maybe good intentions,

485
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,240
and she showed people with bad intentions

486
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:50,760
and how things can go awry and the ways they can be OK.

487
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:51,720
Absolutely.

488
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,280
Well, and looking at so many of those different parents

489
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,120
and homes that she lived in, there

490
00:23:57,120 --> 00:24:00,000
were a lot of parents who maybe did have good intentions

491
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,600
but weren't focused on her and her needs,

492
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,480
but maybe thinking more about their own needs.

493
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,920
I'm thinking the couple who wanted to call her

494
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,600
after their deceased daughter.

495
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,960
It's like they named, yeah.

496
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:14,560
A loving family.

497
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,600
They loved her, but they wanted to replace someone.

498
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,000
So it was just kind of a little bit.

499
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,200
She was never going to replace their daughter.

500
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:23,800
No.

501
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,840
Of course not.

502
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,120
Trying to make her into their daughters

503
00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:31,680
and pretend like the daughter didn't exist in a way,

504
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,280
that she was the daughter.

505
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:34,240
Yeah.

506
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:35,280
That was strange to me.

507
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,560
It just doesn't seem child-centric at all.

508
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:39,600
But it is not.

509
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,080
It was strange, and yet it was interesting

510
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,240
because that was the best experience that she had.

511
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,680
There was kind of an irony there that here these people were

512
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,960
so good to her, treated her like a daughter,

513
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,680
but it was their daughter, their deceased daughter.

514
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:56,760
Weird conditions.

515
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:57,280
Yeah.

516
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,120
So that was kind of, I think, the one thing

517
00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:05,200
was that neither of them ever really found a home,

518
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:06,720
which was kind of sad.

519
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:07,920
Yeah.

520
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,640
Because I even feel like Vivian went through so much

521
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,440
that even when she got married again,

522
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,920
I didn't sound like she really found a place to go home.

523
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:17,400
Yeah.

524
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,560
Well, and she still didn't feel like she

525
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,960
could be completely vulnerable and share

526
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,960
all these different parts of herself and her experiences.

527
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,360
Yeah.

528
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:28,560
Yeah, really interesting.

529
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,240
So the author, I believe, wrote this book

530
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,320
after finding out that her husband's grandfather was

531
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,520
one of the children who rode the orphan train.

532
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,000
I thought that was an interesting connection to this.

533
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,080
And I'm pretty sure she drew heavily upon this book

534
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,800
by Andrea Warren called Orphan Train Writer,

535
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,320
and it focuses on a boy named Lee

536
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,360
Nailing and his experience riding the orphan train.

537
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:54,000
And you can see that if you read that book,

538
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,800
that she probably drew a little heavily

539
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,520
from these experiences.

540
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,000
Yeah.

541
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,680
Right, because she didn't experience it.

542
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,200
So that's the only thing.

543
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,080
I think that's pretty much true of historical fiction.

544
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,040
You've just got to remember it's fiction.

545
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:08,320
Yes.

546
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:09,240
It's not the truth.

547
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,480
If you really want to know what happened,

548
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,760
you can get a little closer to by reading a nonfiction book.

549
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,280
Yes.

550
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,920
But yeah, I felt like that was a pretty good

551
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,040
stepping stone to learn a little bit about it.

552
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:26,600
And then if you want to learn more.

553
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:27,120
Yeah.

554
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:28,640
Yeah.

555
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,520
Absolutely, I agree.

556
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,440
All right, so do you have any big takeaways

557
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,000
for the adoption community based on this book?

558
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,520
I think it's what we talked about,

559
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,800
which is be cognizant of where people come from,

560
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:49,680
communicate, try to just make it a joyful occasion

561
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:54,920
and not something to hide or be secretive about.

562
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:56,280
I love that.

563
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:57,440
That's great.

564
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,920
All right, well, thank you so much for being here today

565
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:01,400
and for sharing with us.

566
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:01,920
Thank you.

567
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,880
Well, we just want to give a huge thanks to Sherlyn again

568
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,680
for being with us and sharing her experience related

569
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,640
to the orphan train.

570
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,520
Yes, I really enjoyed our conversation

571
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,800
and really appreciate her teaching and helping us learn

572
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,960
as we try to become better and more informed about adoption.

573
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,120
So thank you so much for being with us for this episode.

574
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:31,320
Just a couple of quick announcements.

575
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,920
If you are an adoptee or a birth parent

576
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,400
and you'd like to share some of your experiences

577
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,480
and your thoughts with us on the podcast,

578
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,280
we would love to hear from you.

579
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,320
You can reach out to us at open adoption project at gmail.com

580
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,320
or on Instagram, we're at open adoption project.

581
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,200
And again, we love hearing from adoptees and birth parents.

582
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,800
If you want to share your story, we want to share it.

583
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:53,480
Thank you.

584
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,640
And to hopeful adoptive parents or recent adoptive parents,

585
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,160
just a quick announcement that Lynette's guide

586
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,560
that she wrote for adoptive parents and openness

587
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:06,760
has been expanded.

588
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,560
And we've added five new chapters,

589
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,560
about 50 new pages of content that

590
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,840
is kind of a summation of what we've

591
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:19,000
learned as adoptive parents, interviewing many, many

592
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:24,880
adoptees and birth parents, and also considering literature

593
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,600
and data that has been shared about adoption.

594
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,080
So it's a great resource.

595
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,400
It's available also on our website

596
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,520
at openadoptionproject.org.

597
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,040
And it's very reasonably priced.

598
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,760
All the proceeds from the guide go back into the podcast

599
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,160
so we can keep producing.

600
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,520
Yep, it just supports us sharing adoptee and birth parent

601
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,720
experiences, which is really our whole goal here.

602
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,880
So thank you so much for being here with us,

603
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,000
for helping us as we continue listening and learning.

604
00:28:54,000 --> 00:29:13,000
And we'll see you next time.

605
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:14,000
Bye.

606
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:15,000
Bye.

607
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,000
Bye.

608
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,000
Bye.

609
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,000
Bye.

610
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,000
Bye.

611
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,000
Bye.

612
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,000
Bye.

613
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,000
Bye.

614
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,000
Bye.

615
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:24,000
Bye.