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Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 114. We're the Nelsons. I'm Lanette.

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And I'm Shaun. And in today's episode, rather than talking about the orphan train, which we were

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planning on releasing today, we actually are going to release a different conversation that we had

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with a really good friend who's an adoptee, and she asked that she could be anonymous in this

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conversation. But our conversation with her will revolve around the book, The Girls Who Went Away.

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Yes. So The Girls Who Went Away, the full title is The Girls Who Went Away, the hidden history of

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women who surrendered children for adoption in the decades before Roe V Wade. And it was written by

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Ann Fessler, and Ann Fessler was adopted as well. And so she like felt compelled to start compiling

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these different experiences that different birth mothers had in this era right after Roe V Wade was

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passed. And so she talks to all of these different mothers who were linked with children for adoption,

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just gathers their stories and shares them in this book. So it's just a collection of

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tons of miniature memoirs is how I would explain it. And it's so compelling. It's an incredible

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book. And I don't feel like there really needs to be a spoiler alert for this conversation,

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because yeah, our friend who we talked to shares a lot of her personal adoption experience,

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and weaves it in with some different elements from the book. But I don't think it's something

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that you need to read the book before you listen with this episode. Yeah. And I loved listening to

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your conversation. And as I was going through and editing, I was like really intrigued by her story

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and actually the role that this particular book played in her reunion was very interesting. So

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look forward to hearing about that. Yeah, so we'll just jump into this episode. We're really excited

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to present it. All right, we are here on the podcast with my friend who was adopted. We're

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going to keep her identity anonymous for this episode, but we are so grateful to have you here

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to share your experiences. And we're going to talk about the book, The Girls Who Went Away by Ann

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Fessler. I'm excited. Yay. Okay, so Ann Fessler was also adopted too, which I think is an interesting

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note. We'll talk about that more as we dive into this. All right, so as we talked about doing this

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episode, you requested to do this book. Is there a reason behind that? Yes. Um, I discovered this

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book in kind of an amazing way and it was really pivotal for me finding my birth mom and finally

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having the courage to search her out because I was 49 years old. No, sorry, backup. I was 40 years old

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when I found the book and I, um, do you want me to tell you the story? Yeah, please do. I want to hear.

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Yes. Okay, so, um, when I was younger, um, I'm 59 now, but when I was, I found out I was adopted

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when I was five and I was totally fine with it my whole life. Never had any like abandonment issues

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or never felt like my mom wasn't my mom. I just always loved my parents so much and never really

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dwelled on the fact that I was adopted. But as I got a little bit older, um, when I hit high school,

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I knew that I wanted to potentially find my birth mom someday or just have some more information.

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And then again, like in college, it sort of hit me again and I got a little bit of information

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from my mom who went to the, um, to the adoption agency and that's kind of a whole other story.

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But by the time I was 40, I knew like I really, really want to find her. Um, but I'm scared. Like,

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I don't know if I should. I don't want, all I want to do is thank her. All I want to do is see what

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I look like. I don't necessarily want to have a big relationship with her. And so we were actually

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our family, we have, um, five kids and we were taking a vacation to Nauvoo and a driving trip.

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And I had finished reading this book, um, just a random book. I don't even remember what it was.

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And we had like a four hour drive ahead of us and I was like, oh my gosh, I need another book to

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read. Like I was just in that stage of my life where I was reading a lot and we were in a little

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town that had a Barnes and Noble and I was like, okay, need to stop the car. We're going to the

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Barnes and Noble and I'm such an indecisive person and I'm, it takes me forever to pick out a book.

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So I literally like said a little prayer before I went in, please help me just find a book fast,

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like, and the right book that I need to read. I want a meaningful book. Please help me just find

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a quick book. Cause all the kids were in the car. It was just like a rushed situation. So I walk in

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the Barnes and Noble and I mull around for a second and I looked down at the table and there is the

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girls who went away. I'm like, what is this? And I mean, adoption wasn't even like my adoption and

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my search and all of that was not really on the top of my head at that moment. But when I looked

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down and saw the book and saw what it was about, it was like, this is my book. Like I knew, like I'm

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going to buy this book. And I started reading it and I literally could not put it down. Like it

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completely changed my entire perspective about my birth mom. And I always thought, oh, she must

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have been such a selfless person. How wonderful that she would, you know, she found out she was

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pregnant and she would, she would, um, relinquish me for adoption because she wanted me to have a

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good life. You know, all of these things that I thought about adoption and why someone would,

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would give a baby a, I know you don't say that anymore. What do you say? Um, agencies will

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usually say place a child for adoption, not give up. Yeah. So, um, that's a generational thing. I

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think. Yeah. That's anyway, how they said it. But so I started reading this book and I, and it was

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just so shocking to me how every single story, they're all stories written by women who relinquished

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their babies before Roe versus Wade. They didn't have any other options. Their rights were really

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kind of just taken from them as soon as they announced that they were pregnant to a parent or

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a family member. And I, it just completely changed my perspective of like, what if this happened to

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her? What if she went through this? I've got to find her. Like I've got to find her and find out

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if she's okay. It like kind of became more about her than me. Yeah. Like I suddenly became like

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really worried about her. So, but I don't think I would have pulled the trigger and started the

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search if it weren't for the book. Oh my goodness. That gives me chills. It really does. Wow. So

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you're right throughout this book, it is just heart wrenching to read these different accounts

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and experiences that these mothers had. So many of the mothers in the book told about how different

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staff in homes that they went to to give birth or other places that they went would use different

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techniques like mind control kind of, right? Like that assign them pseudonyms and say they

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couldn't use their real names or they would isolate them and they couldn't be around other people.

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They couldn't see their family or their parents. They couldn't see their boyfriends,

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like the fathers of their babies. And they would tell them that if they didn't go through with

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adoption, that they were going to owe this facility thousands of dollars for staying and for the food

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and for medical care. And so there was a lot of coercion that went on in these different accounts.

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Did any of these tactics stand out to you? Did you feel like any of these were like personally

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relevant and the experiences that you've seen? Absolutely. When I, so to kind of like give you

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the timeline, when I read the book, I think it was like about 2005. And I came home from that trip

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and I knew that I was going to start a search. So I got on the computer, the internet was a little

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bit kind of newer than a little bit, you know, and I found registries for adoptees, put my name on

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all the registries that I could find, put my name on a registry for the birth hospital that I knew

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my birth mom went to. And the only reason I had that information that I even knew the hospital

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that she was where she had me was because there's just a lot of kind of little interesting things

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that happened throughout this whole process for me. But when I was in high school, I dated a boy

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all through high school and his dad owned the law firm that handled my adoption. And so my

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boyfriend went sneaking through the files and found my paperwork and found the name that I was

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given at birth. So I didn't know if it was the birth mom's last name or the birth father's last

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name. But, and I also, and it also had the hospital name because I was born in Illinois and Illinois

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was a state that had sealed adoption law, like really tight sealed adoption laws. And so that

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was really lucky for me that I had that information to go on. Yeah. Wow. So when I was doing the,

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like getting online and putting my name on these registries, hoping maybe there was a connection

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or maybe hoping my birth mom was looking for me too, at some point, that was just my place to start.

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And what happened after that was kind of miraculous. We, I got an email within like two weeks from this

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woman and we'll call her Michelle. And she said that she had seen my name on this registry,

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looking for my birth mom and that she had it like a job helping people. Like she used to work for

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the state and she would help people search for their birth families. And did I want her help?

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Well, we were going through financial issues at the time. Had I had no money to spend on anything

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like that. And I was kind of skeptical. Like, I don't know, I just, somebody out of the blue online

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wants to help me. I don't know. I was just kind of skeptical. And she's, she's like, no, I won't even

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charge you. It's fine. I just really like helping people. And so we started developing a relationship

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and it was just by emailing back and forth. And she started kind of searching out things because

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I had her name. Oh, I had not her name, but I had what I was named. I had her last name and I had

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the hospital and, and I had a little bit of other information that my, my adopted mom had gotten from

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my, from the, from the agency, from the agency. So the agency that handled my adoption when I was 14,

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my mom went and because I was really curious at that point and got me this two page typed out

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a little bio of my birth mom, my birth dad, you know, five, four age 22. So she was 22 years old.

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She wasn't a teenager. Sorry, I'm going off on all these different directions, but I'm actually

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going to come back. I think I know where I'm going here. So anyway, so I had enough for her to go on

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to start kind of going down the trail of finding her. And we got to a point where, and I didn't

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know where she was from. She only knew where I lived presently. And she said, okay, I've found,

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I need to order a obituary. I think it will lead us to, to, to your birth mom for sure. Like,

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but I need to order this obituary. And it's like 20 bucks. Can you send me a check? And I'm like,

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sure, no problem. We'll send you a check. And I said, so what's your address? And she gave me her

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address and she's from this tiny, tiny, maybe population 200 farm town in Illinois, where

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my aunt and my cousin have lived my whole life, where I would go visit their farm. And my cousin

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was the postmaster. And I'm like, you're from this town. And how, like, do you know, and I gave her

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my cousin's name and she's like, oh yeah, of course I do. She's the postmaster. So I just thought,

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like, what are the chances I get online, this random woman finds me and offers to help me,

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offers to help me for free. And she knows my family. She knows, like, it was so amazing to me. I

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even called my cousin who knows, who knew, you know, I was adopted and told her that I had found,

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like that I had met this person that knows her and that she was helping me. Anyway, it was just such

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a, like, that's crazy coincidence. So anyway, we got to the point where she was pretty sure that she

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had my birth mom and her location and address and everything. And she said, I needed to just write

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a letter that was very straightforward, just info, like my name, the day I was born. If you'd like

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to have contact with me, I think you're my birth mom. This is how you can reach out to me. And

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said, just put a stamp on it. And here's the addresses to the couple of addresses that I think

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might be her. And I chickened out. Like I completely, I couldn't do it. And so that was

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around 2005. And then 2000, it was like seven years, seven or eight years later,

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I, my son was having health issues to the point where I needed to find out if there was any

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thing health issue wise, like it became more not just wanting to find her. I needed to find her

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because I wanted to know medical history too. And also to clarify, like why I chickened out, I

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realized like, this is so such a big deal. And I had five really busy young kids and I was having

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was had a really like busy church calling. And I just was like, I can't handle one more emotional

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thing in my life right now. And my mother-in-law was had cancer and I was taking care of her.

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So, so much was going on in my life. I was like, okay, now I have my birth mom's potential name.

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I could find her, but I can't do this. I'm it's too much. Like it's too heavy. I can't be in a

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place where you're ready. Yeah. And I just realized as much as I want to be ready, I'm not ready.

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Yeah. And so I put it on the back burner. Seven or eight years later, I dug up the woman that

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helped me find her like old emails. It was kind of a miracle. I found her email address and she

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still was there. And I said, okay, here I am again. Like I think it was eight years later.

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And I, and she said, well, you're in luck because Illinois changed their adoption,

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open adoption laws, and you can just write the state and get a copy of your birth certificate.

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And so long story short, I know we have an amount of time. I did the, did the letter thing,

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Senate return receipt, got a, got a message or got the return receipt back about a week later,

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her, my birth mom's husband signed for the letter. So I knew that she had it and I waited for her to

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reach out to me and about a month went by and she hadn't reached out. And I was sitting in my car

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waiting for my son. He was in a doctor's appointment or like a therapy appointment

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for these medical issues that he was having. And I was like, I'm just going to call her. I,

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I had done like a people search and found what I thought was her phone number.

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And I just picked up the phone and called her. And I was thinking about the book and everything

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that I had read. And I really wanted to know like what her experience was if I had an opportunity

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to talk to her. So I, anyway, I picked up the phone, called her husband, answer the phone.

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And he said, she's not here right now. Can I take a message? And, and I started to go into,

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oh, you know, gave him my name. I just, I sent her a letter. I don't know. You might know about this.

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And he's like, oh, she just walked through the door and handed me the phone and she answered the

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phone. And I just said, hi, I'm, it's me. I'm the one that wrote you the letter. And she immediately

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said, I'm so glad you called. I've had the letter on my nightstand for a month and I've just been

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too scared to pick up the phone and call you. And before you tell me anything, I just want you to

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know, have, have you had a happy life? Have you had a good life? And I want you to know that I

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loved you and I didn't want to, to have to give you away. And, and I immediately started bawling

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and was so relieved like that she had that perspective and that she was so kind. And we

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immediately hit it off and talked on the phone for about an hour. And she, she told me, well, I don't

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remember if it was that first conversation. I did find out about my birth dad, which was really

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exciting news to me. I said, you know, what, what about my birth dad? Like, is, do you know,

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like, do you know where he is? And she was really embarrassed and flustered and said, well,

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I, I had gone on a, I graduated from college and my parents sent me and a friend to Europe for six

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weeks. And I was in Paris and I had a fling with a French boy. I'm like, wait, what? Like, say that

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again. And anyway, I found out my dad was, my birth dad was just a French romance in Paris. And so

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that was really meaningful to me because I've always been obsessed with France. I've always,

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I'm an artist. And when I paint, I would listen to French music, like the French food, everything,

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like I've always been obsessed with France. So I felt like, okay, that makes sense. But anyway,

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so we started talking about, we ended up talking every, every month for about an hour at a time,

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like for three years, but she told me this is getting back to your original question. My gosh,

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the roundabout, she said that she, when she came home from that trip, she told her mom that she was

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pregnant and she was from a fairly like upper middle-class family. She had one sister and

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her mom was extremely upset and didn't tell her dad. Her dad looked to be in his nineties and never

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knew that she had a baby. They sent her to, and she was 22. It's not like she was 15. She was 22.

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And she, and I think that's one thing that she, like, she felt really guilty about. Like I was

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22 and I didn't have any rights. I didn't, like, they would not let me, there was no way I could

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keep you. Like they just sent me away to, to go live with her sister in another state. And

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she was with her sister for a little while. And then she had to enter one of these homes for

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unwed mothers. Like it wasn't even a, they called it a hospital, but I think she was sent to like,

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it had a, like a hospital next to it, but this was strictly for all the girls that got pregnant

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out of wedlock and were sent to live in this home together. She said they could only call each other

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by their first names. They couldn't know each other's last names and they had to do like cleaning and

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cooking and just helping take care of the place. They weren't there to take it easy. No, they were

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like the rest. And then, and she said they were just like, she said the counseling was just like

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a shaming session. It wasn't counseling. And it was, she said some, some girls didn't even get to

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see their babies. She said she got to hold me and, and they kind of forced her to sign the release

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papers. Like she just didn't have a choice. So heartbreaking. I imagine. So how was this experience

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for you as a mother at the time that you met your biological mother? You were a mom. I imagine

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it was heart wrenching. Like it was so heart wrenching. And it just, it made me realize

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that I was a mother. I was a mother. I was a mother. I was a mother. I was a mother. I was a mother.

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And it just, it made me realize like just how wrong it was back then to like, they didn't,

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you couldn't get birth control. And so unless you were married and your parents didn't explain

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anything to you. So taboo. Yeah. No, yeah. No, like girls barely even knew what was going on

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when they got their period, let alone like they get pregnant. And one of the stories I thought was

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so haunting was the girl who, who didn't like, who went to her mom and said, how are they going to

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take this out of me? She didn't even know it. She was 16 years old and didn't know how a baby

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was born. Like she had no idea. And then her mom just shamed her like it's coming out the same way

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it went in, you know, and just horrendous treatment. So much trauma. Yeah. So much trauma. And so my

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birth mom had me and then she went back home to a dad who didn't even know what had happened. And

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they, they, her dad trying to semi keep this confidential. I don't know if she'll ever hear

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it or not. Um, I feel like I have to be careful because she is so very, very secretive about it.

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She went on to have two sons and they don't know about me. She, she hasn't told them. And it's been

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now 10 years since I found her and she, she ended up cutting off communication with me

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because I did an ancestry DNA and so did her son, one of her sons. And we show up at the top of each

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other's lists as like a potential sibling, first cousin. Yeah. And she's just said, I can't, this

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is too much. It's too heavy. I can't, this is stressing me out. I can't talk to you anymore.

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Well, and with the perspective of this book and reading all of these other women's accounts,

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I can see there was so much shame and so much stigma. I feel like it would take so much time.

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Yeah. She's, yeah. Through this and so much therapy and you don't even, I mean, they didn't get any

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therapy. They, she said she came home, they went on this trip to Brazil for nine months,

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because her dad was working there. And she said she sat on the beach and cried every day and her

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mom never spoke of it again, like never, ever brought it up again. And her sister didn't either.

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And then when she told her sister that, that I had written her this letter and found her, her sister

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just said, you better be careful. She's probably looking for money. And she just like, that's

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heartbreaking. Yeah. Wasn't even supportive at all of the fact that it could be like a good

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relationship and good closure for her. And, but still like it was still more just shame. So she's,

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that's why she hasn't, I think hasn't told her sons because she's just worried of how they will

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react. And I'm sure they wouldn't, I mean, they have the mindset of a, of, you know, a modern

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outlook. Not the 1950s, sixties. Yeah. Yeah. There were so many accounts that really struck me. The

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one that is coming to mind right now, there was one mother, she was married to the father. Did

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you, do you remember this one? No, her mother-in-law signed the papers and I, I was like, dad,

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dying when I read this. I mean, they were all horrific. Yeah. They're all horrific. But yeah,

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just so unethical, just literally taking rights away from women who were adults. Yeah. And they

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made it impossible for these girls. Like I was going to say, they didn't, they couldn't get birth

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control. So, I mean, hormones are going to happen and girls are going to get pregnant, but they had,

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they really had no choice. I mean, they couldn't, they, they only offered birth control to married

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people. Like, and well, and it was with husband's consent or something. Yeah. With the husband's

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consent and the church like was so involved as well. So crazy. And yeah, it was such a status

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thing like that you had to uphold your, your reputation and your place in society and you just

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tarnished the family. If, but yet, I don't know. It's really interesting. Cause I, I was just

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visiting with my, my mom who's 91 now, and she was saying how glad she was. She grew up in the,

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in the fifties and you know, what a great time it was. And I said, yeah, except for the girls

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that got pregnant and had to be sent away. And she said, that's true. I had a friend in high school

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that got pregnant, but I still talked to her, but most people didn't. I'm like, wow, like that,

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that was, that was her generation. So hard. I remember other accounts like that, where people

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would go back to school after, like as a teenager, right? You give birth and go back to high school

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and then you feel like this different person and nobody talks to you about anything that happened.

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If they talk to you at all, it's just, when I thought it was interesting too, like somebody

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was saying how like these families were so, they felt that people would say all of these mean things

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about them. Well, and that's what they were doing to their own children. Like they were doing the

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thing that they were afraid would happen to them as a family. So sad. Yeah. You're afraid everyone's

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going to ostracize your child. And they're ostracizing their own child. It was so sad.

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It's heartbreaking. Yes. And I mean, luckily it seems like adoption practices have come a long

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way and we're doing better, but I feel like it's still so important to read about this. No,

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but it wasn't that long ago that this is how it really wasn't. Are we making sure that we're

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working toward better practices continually? I do remember in the, it would have been in the 80s

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and I was a teenager. This was probably when I went to my mom and said, you know, I'm kind of

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curious about my birth mom. And I remember her taking me to a, it was called like a birth triangle

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meeting or something. It was like there were birth moms and there were people that adopted

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like adopted parents and there were adoptees. I think it was called the birth, like a birth

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triangle. Some kind of meeting. Yeah. Meeting that we went to. And that was, that was just,

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you know, kind of a new thing. And that was in the 80s, which was only, you know,

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20 year, not even 20 years after I wasn't even 20 years old when I went to that meeting. So at least

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like things had started to improve in my lifetime. Yeah. More connection between everybody.

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It's interesting. Did you go back or was that like the one time? I feel like we only went the one time.

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But yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I feel like in adoption, there are so many misconceptions

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and you've talked about this, how a lot of the time in society, we look at adoption and assume

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that the mothers are like young and teenage moms, right? Or that's usually, and what Ann Fessler,

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the author of this book said was that of the women that she interviewed, the average age

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that they were when they had their baby was 19, which technically is a teenager, but that's an

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adult. Yeah. 19 isn't, I mean, when you're 19, you think you, you are an adult. I mean, you are. Yeah.

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I mean, yeah, it's not, it's older than you would think. Yeah. Yeah. So are there other

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misconceptions that you've encountered as an adoptee? I think, I don't know if this would fall

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into a misconception, but I think people assume that adoptees have like abandonment issues or,

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and some do, like some really do. It's true, but I don't think everyone does. I think if,

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I think if you are a birth or if you're an adopted adopt, adopted parents, is that what you say?

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Anyway, yeah. Parents who adopt. As long, like I love the open adoption thing now. I love it. And

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I am just happy for the fact that I was told I was adopted. I know there was, there are even people

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still that exist. I remember I had a friend in college that said, if I ever adopted a child,

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I wouldn't tell them until he was 18. Like that is the absolute worst, most damaging thing you could

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ever possibly do. And it implies that there's something wrong. Yeah. Like that you had to hide.

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Being adopted. Yeah. And just telling your children as young as possible and just making it a part of

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who they are and how they came to you and how important and special it is that they,

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this was the path that got them to your family and how important the birth mom is in the whole

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process. And that she loves them. Yes. That it was a loving decision. I mean, I feel like now the

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decisions are even more loving. Like then I think like in my era, sadly, so many of these birth moms

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weren't given any choice at all. Like they weren't part of the process. Their parents just made the

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choice for them. And these horrible adopt, or birth, birthing homes and stuff. Yeah. Or unwed mothers.

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But now at least like these women who realize that they are able to care for the child. And I think

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it's probably a really spiritual process. Like they realize that they are meant to have this child

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for another family. Like somehow. Like I can't even imagine like how hard and the sacrifice

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that that is. But, and a choice that they make to do that. It is so, so hard. But I was told like

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one thing, not told, pondered, and somebody said this and it just rang true to me.

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That had my mom and dad been able to have children, they weren't able to.

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My spirit would have been born to them, was meant to come to them. Yeah. And so my birth mom like

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was just a way for my spirit to make it to my mom and dad. I would have looked differently had they

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physically had they had me, but my spirit would have been the same. And I always loved that. Like

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I love that. And I really do believe that. But I do feel a connection to my birth mom because

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And I think that that's the goal with the adoptions, right? Like you see there's all of

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this love, there's all these connections and it's okay to have two families or three families,

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or you know, like it's okay to have. And it's not a threat to anyone. And I think that's a big

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misconception that if you have an open adoption, that you're somehow vulnerable to your child

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loving the birth mom more than you or having a connection to them more than they have to you.

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And I think that's common fear that we can. Yeah. And I think that's, that's a misconception.

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Yeah, absolutely. So do you feel like reading this book changed any of your understandings or

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how you saw adoption?

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Um, it just made me so incredibly grateful for

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my birth mom and everything that she had to go through. I love the adoption process. I think it's

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I think it's so incredible. Like my parents weren't able to have children and they adopted me and my

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brother and we became a family and I'm forever grateful for that. And luckily my birth mom was

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able to go on and have a life and have children and get married. And, but the trauma that she had to

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endure and the still the shame and guilt that she carries around is just a, it's just a, it's just a

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product of her generation. And I'm really, really grateful that things have changed and have gotten

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so much better and hope it continues to improve. Yeah, me too. Absolutely. So I have a quote here

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from Anne Fessler, the author of the book. She said, mothers who are considering an adoption plan

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must be able to do so without coercion and with full knowledge of services and support available

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to them. I think most people imagine a very young teenager when they picture a surrendering mother.

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We can talk about this, but the majority of surrendering mothers today are in their 20s.

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Only about a quarter of them are in their teens. Women must be given adequate time following the

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birth of their child to decide whether or not to follow through with the adoption and reasonable

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time afterwards for consent. And we've been talking about how we feel like the adopting

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community has gotten better. And I feel like that's what she's highlighting here too. Do you feel

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like there's any areas where we still need to improve? Well, gosh, I don't know. I do. I have

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a friend who's adopted four children and one of the children, one of the babies she had for three

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months and the birth mom came back and decided to take the baby back. And that for her was just like

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losing a child and really, really hard. So I don't know. I mean, I don't know like,

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because you have to honor the birth mom and her right to maybe change her mind. Yeah. But I don't

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know what the right time period is because you want the newborn to bond right away with the adopted.

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And yeah. And ultimately that's what we want our focus to be, right? On the child and like,

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how can we help them? That's the best option. Yeah. I think having like the best of the best

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counseling available to the birth mom while she's pregnant and going through the process. So

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she is as sure as she possibly can be. So no one gets a baby ripped out of their arms, you know,

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after they think it's going to be theirs. Yeah. That's so hard. Is there anything in the book

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that really surprised you? Well, I remember the first time I read it, it all surprised me. Like,

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I just, I don't even think I had any idea. Like I really had no idea. I think it's so valuable for

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people to, to read and understand what, what it used to be like, what women had to go through.

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So, yeah. And the author, so we talked about how she was adopted and she said that she waited to

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find her own birth mom until after she wrote the book. She didn't want that like, uh, influencing

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how she went about these interviews and collaborating them and putting them together. And I thought that

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was so interesting. Yeah, that is, that must've been hard for her to, to put it on the back burner

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and to comply and then to find like, to find out what her story was going to be, because not all,

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not all reunion stories have a happy ending. It's true. I mean, so you don't know what your,

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what kind of, what can of worms you're going to open. And especially the, the women that did go

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through so much trauma and shame and guilt and never healed from that and have, you know, we're

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still carrying probably some mental health issues or addiction issues or whatever that they had to

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turn to to deal with that pain. Yeah. And I don't think any of these mothers seem to really receive

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help. No, after place. Yeah. Right. Like they weren't, yeah, mine didn't, no one was checking

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up on them or yeah, helping make sure that they were. No, she had to like, you know,

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like pretend she was a completely different person in front of her parents, but nothing ever happened

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that she didn't give birth to a living human being that was that she got to see for five minutes. And

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and she had to just never talk about it again. Like, how do you do that? That would just eat

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away at your soul. I get it. I don't know. So wrong, but I do feel like for me as an adoptive

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parent, as I read this book, I was, I mean, I feel like it was already empathetic to worry

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birth mothers, but I feel like it changed it and just like opened these floodgates. Oh yeah, me too.

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Yes. Just compassion and feeling so protective and wishing I could go back. I know. Yeah, I know. I

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wish, I really wish my birth mom could read a book, but she's 80 now and I think it's too,

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honestly, I think it's too painful for her. Yeah. Like I think it, she wouldn't have anyone to sit

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and cry through it with, you know, and deal with all of those big feelings. So.

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Well, and I feel like that is a big takeaway for me too, that we all need so much support and help

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and help me go forward and be better supports to others. Yeah. And be, you know, I think a lot of

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people judge the open adoption still to this, like that's something that our society's dealing with

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now. Like, you know, why would you let the birth mom be part of your life? There's so much stigma

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still. Yeah, that we have a long way to go on that one. You know, we've luckily we've overcome

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the stigma of being an unwed mother, but let's work on the open adoption thing. Yeah. Absolutely.

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So how did you feel about the book overall? It's one of my top five books of all time. Yeah. For

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me. Yeah. And I think it's a really interesting read for anyone, whether adopted or not.

361
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Well, and that literally changed your life, right? It literally, like I was led to that book.

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So I would find my birth mom because I don't think, I mean, I wanted to, I thought about it,

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but that was like, okay, I've got to do something. I've got to, I've got to find her so I can

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potentially like give her some closure and let her know that I'm okay. Yeah. So

365
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:54,880
well, it gives me goosebumps. It's such a beautiful story. All right. Thank you so much for sharing

366
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your experience. Sure. Anything else you want to talk about? I will say my birth mom, even though

367
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we don't talk anymore, we text a tiny little bit, like maybe once a year, I'll wish her happy

368
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birthday or happy mother's day. And she lost her husband two years ago and he had dementia. And at

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one point I reached out with a text and said, you know, how are you doing? I know it's so hard.

370
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And it was all during COVID and all of that. And she said, this is, she said, it's horrible.

371
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This is the second hardest thing I've ever done. I'm like, and that just made me cry. That's wrenching.

372
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:48,560
Wow. Yeah. So it's meaningful for her to say that. Yeah. Thank you. Sure. So appreciated

373
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hearing your experiences. Hopefully it made sense. I didn't rattle too much. You're so good. Thank you.

374
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Well, we wanted to give a huge thanks to our dear friend who was willing to share her experience.

375
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:11,440
And I hope this episode didn't disappoint. I thought that her experience, some of the

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takeaways that she shared and things that I learned were just super impactful. So I'm so glad we got to

377
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to meet with her and for her to share her experience. Yeah. This was a really impactful

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discussion to have and just so meaningful. It was incredible to hear this person's adoption

379
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experience and reunification experience and how this book influenced it. And I really enjoyed this

380
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book too. This book is one that I've been wanting to talk about and share on the podcast for a couple

381
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of years. It's I think one that everyone connected to adoption should read. Like it is the first book

382
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:51,920
I recommend when I talk to adoptive parents who are scared of open adoption. I think it's so

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important to give these insights into real birth mother experiences with closed adoption to help

384
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understand what it looked like before open adoption was common practice. I think it is

385
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meaningful for adoptees and birth parents as well. And for social workers, it's just such a good book.

386
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:14,320
So I highly recommend this book. If you haven't read it, please do. I personally like one of my

387
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:23,120
huge takeaways was how I know we saw a long way to go, but how much adoption has changed in some

388
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positive ways with the focus on open adoptions. I just remember on our date night shortly after

389
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recording this, we were talking about how difficult it would be for, you know, in this person's

390
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circumstance, her birth mom's dad didn't know ever in his entire life that his daughter

391
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had a child place that baby. He had this grandchild out there. Yeah. Well, and, and just as a parent,

392
00:46:51,600 --> 00:47:00,960
wanting to help my children thrive and succeed and not knowing something so like such a huge part of

393
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:07,520
her life experience at all, like for his entire life, I just feel like that's just such a shame.

394
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:14,160
And I am glad that we're in a place where there's less stigma and there's still growth, but you're

395
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:18,640
right. It's so different. That's one thing as you read this book and these experiences, it's like,

396
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:23,760
Oh my goodness. Thank goodness the world is changing and we're getting more compassionate. I think,

397
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:30,640
I hope. Yeah. Well, I loved, I loved this episode. I'm so grateful for her and again, for her sharing

398
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with us. Me too. And I feel like it just really reinforces the importance of listening and having

399
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an open heart to hearing heart experiences and maybe experiences that challenge what we thought

400
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we knew or understood to help us have a fuller picture and understanding of others. So anyway,

401
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:54,240
thank you so much for listening to this episode of the open adoption project. We'll be back next

402
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week with another book club episode. We've enjoyed doing these for national adoption month.

403
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,080
Our next episode will be the one we were planning on for this week. We had some technical

404
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:09,120
difficulties. So next week we'll be talking about orphan train rider by Christina Baker Klein.

405
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:38,160
Yeah. We're excited for next week's conversation too. Thank you so much for listening.