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Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 118. We're the Nelsons. I'm Shaun.

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And in today's episode, Lynette has an interview and great conversation with Linda R. Sexton.

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Linda is an adoptive mother who's been involved with open adoption relationships

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for nearly 30 years and has some great insights that she's learned in her lifetime of being a

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mother to two adopted sons. And in this episode, you'll hear a lot about the things that she

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learned navigating open adoptions through these many years now having adult children. And I think

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this is a great episode for anyone who's considering open adoption for the future, or perhaps if you

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have an open adoption, maybe some tips that might help you to have even a more effective

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open adoption that's really focused on your children. We are so grateful for Linda and

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we'll go ahead and jump to that conversation now.

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We are here on the podcast with Linda R. Sexton. Linda, thank you so much for joining us.

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Thank you so much for having me, Lanette. I'm excited to be here today.

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We're so happy to have you here. So can you start off by telling us how you are connected

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to adoption? Yes, certainly. Well, first of all, I consider myself, Lanette, an open adoption pioneer,

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also an author, a blogger, and I'm a retired executive from a Fortune 100 company.

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However, the reason I'm here today is because my greatest joy in life remains the adoption

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and parenting of two children born in 1994 and 1998. And both of them were domestic infant

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adoptions and both in open arrangements. Awesome. So you have been living open adoption

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for quite some time. Yes, yes, I have. And I will say that for more than 30 years,

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my husband and I have been living in open adoption. But I will say at this point,

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both of my children are grown and they're out of the house. And I would like to just make a

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comment about them because our oldest lives in Austin, Texas. My husband and I live in Florida.

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And while they, my children did not grow up in Texas, they were both

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born in Texas. And my oldest moved back to Texas, which was where they were born. And I think that

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that's actually very, very significant. But our oldest does live in Austin now and is an entrepreneur

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and makes and sells vegan cheese. And our youngest lives in Denver and is an engineer and works on

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clean water for the planet. So I'm very proud of both of these kids. Oh, that's awesome. Making

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amazing impacts. That's so cool. Yeah. And when I retired, though, what I decided was that I really

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wanted to write a book about the experience we had with open adoption over 30 years. In fact,

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I think I was so in awe of open adoption when we started it that I thought, you know, I need to

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share this story. And I took some really good notes early on. So it was finally when I retired

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that I sat down and I thought, you know, I've been doing this for 30 years, I have a lot of advice to

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give people. And what happened was I wrote the book and then I went out to get feedback. And I was

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I was stunned, frankly, I got so much feedback, some was very positive. But I found out that there

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were a lot of complexities about adoption that I really didn't understand. And so these last several

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years have been really humbling for me, as I've learned so much more about adoption and the

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complexities. So what are some of those complexities that stand out to you? Well, there's so many and

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so much has evolved over time. But I'm happy to give you some examples. In the beginning,

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for instance, my husband and I thought that openness did make a lot of sense, even though we

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really were pioneers, and it had just started back then. But we thought that it was primarily

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going to be for the benefit of the birth parents. We knew that if they had an ability to see their

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child grow, and thrive, and they could see that their child was loved and safe, we thought, hey,

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that's great, they're going to be able to move on with their lives. Well, what we have learned is

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that they never move on with their lives, they move forward, they can be happy, and they can have very

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full lives, but they never ever move on from that child. And it's actually a really good thing.

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The other thing that we thought was that visitation between the child and the birth parents

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would be wonderful, happy occasions. And we had many of these visitations growing up. And in fact,

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they were wonderful and happy occasions. But we thought this visitation was just what the birth

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parents needed to move on and to heal. Well, what we have learned since then is that after visitation,

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there was a lot of grief, and it was really difficult. And even though we had done it for

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so many years, I didn't know the grief that my children's birth parents were feeling after these

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visits until I went to write the book, and I talked to them, and I got some feedback from them. And I

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learned how much grief they had. And it was something that they completely hid from us. So,

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you know, these are some of the complexities. And I will say, Lanette, there's even a bigger one when

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I look back and I think about it. And that is regarding our children. See, when we bought into

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this idea and wanted to do open adoption, we did not think that we thought it was going to be good

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for the children for us to be transparent. But we really thought that they were not going to have any

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problems. And we bought into this idea that the baby is a clean slate. So we truly believe when

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we brought both of our babies home from the hospital, that they were a clean slate and that

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we were going to avoid all adoption related issues. I didn't know that when that baby is

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separated from their birth mom, that they experienced trauma. And so I didn't look for

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any of these things that my children would be vulnerable, you know, things like attachment,

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potential attachment difficulties or fear of abandonment or even anger. So that was really

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quite a lesson that I learned that, yes, even in this almost ideal world of open adoption,

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that these children are still very vulnerable. So, yeah, so there was a lot I had to learn.

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Do you mind me asking, what did openness look like for your family?

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Yes, well, openness, I will say this, I'm very proud of this, my children today

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know their birth moms and their birth dads. So openness to us meant that they, they knew

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their birth families growing up and we had visitation. And of course, it, it was different

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for all four parents, if you will. And that was something that, that was, that was good and also,

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also challenging for us. But what openness meant really is this spirit of openness and

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that our children knew from the very beginning that they were adopted, they knew who their

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birth parents were. We had visitation and I will say within the first five years, particularly,

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we saw my oldest birth mom a lot. And then on my youngest, certainly we saw the birth mom and the

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birth dad a lot during that first year. But then what happened is we got transferred, we lived in

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Texas and we got transferred to Virginia, which was unexpected. And we were, we were, we were

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contacted. But when we left, that, that meant that they couldn't get in the car and see us,

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because both of the kids were born in Texas. And what it meant is that we had to get on an airplane

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or they had to get on an airplane. But I will say that throughout the growing up years, one or the

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first five of us did get on a plane. One of the birth fathers came every single year. We saw him.

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The birth mothers, we saw less frequently, but throughout the growing up years. And I made sure,

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especially when the children were in their adolescent years, that they did see their birth

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moms. My kids always knew who their birth moms were. And I would say today they're now 25 and 29

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years old, the kids are, and they both have relationships with their mom and their dad

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and their siblings. And the other surprise to me is that in many ways, the sibling relationships

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become the deepest and the most satisfying. And that's something that is just really neat to see

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that they've got these sibling relationships as well. That's beautiful. And it sounds like you had

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an open dialogue in your home about adoption, where it was a safe topic as well. We did have,

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I would say we did have an open dialogue, but we didn't have a lot of dialogue. And you know,

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Lanette, I actually talk about this in the book a little bit. I said that adoption and open adoption

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was just who we were. And it wasn't something that we talked a lot about. And in fact, it's one of

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the things that I, when I look back, I wish I had more dialogue about it. I wish I asked the kids

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a little bit more about how they were feeling. It was just kind of natural to say, oh, you know,

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your birth mom or birth dad, they're going to be visiting us next week. We're going to go to the

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airport and pick them up. And, you know, we always had did fun things when they were there, but we

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didn't sit down and, you know, probe, okay, how are you feeling about this? How are you doing that

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kind of thing? So it was always very open, but not a lot of dialogue. So what would you share with

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prospective adoptive parents who might be feeling kind of hesitant about this idea of open adoption?

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Yeah. Well, the first thing that I would say is openness is hard work. Make no mistake about it.

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And the second thing is that it is absolutely worth it. And I would say it is natural to have

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fears. I mean, I remember us thinking, what are we getting ourselves into? Will the birth families

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be too involved? Right? Will the children get confused? Will that child love their birth mom

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more than me? Right? Or if birth mom comes back to visit the child, is she going to say,

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I made a mistake. I want the child back. Right? So these are very natural things when you think

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about it. And of course, for us, those fears were unfounded. But I would say that the most important

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thing in any adoption is that the child is the North star. So to always think about what is best

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for that child guides you through this whole open adoption. So, you know, we're all part of nature

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and nurture and the adoptive parents do all the nurturing and all the loving, but so much of

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somebody's nature comes from their biology. So if you can give that child a view into their biology,

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whether that's through their birth mom and or their birth dad, and if they're not available,

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maybe a grandmother, a sibling, an aunt, an uncle, if there's anybody from their biological family,

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it can help that child tremendously to see, you know, their biology and where some of their traits

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come. And that helps them grow up whole. So think about that. I want my child to grow up whole,

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of course. So openness is the best way to do that. The other thing that I would say is that realize

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when you get into an adoption space, this is not a situation where you can parent as if you gave

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birth to that child. Even if it's a baby, you can't parent as if you gave birth and that child

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deserves to know everything that they can about their roots. So whatever gift you can give them

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with openness and open adoption really helps them. I love that. So as you're talking about these

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insecurities and worries that you had when you were first entering this adoption world,

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it was so interesting to me because we adopted our children 15 or 20 years later, and we had those

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same concerns. The people who went to our like orientation meetings where we talked about these

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workers had the same concerns too. Like, there is clearly like these are continual worries that

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people are still having, I think. And so I really appreciate how you're addressing this.

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So do you feel like open adoption is something that's confusing to the child?

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You know, I do not. I do not. It's actually not confusing at all. But what I would say is this,

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it depends on how comfortable you are as the parent. So if you as the parent are comfortable,

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that child is going to take their cue from you. And if you're very comfortable, if there's nothing

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that is confusing to you, it's not going to be confusing to the child. So I would say that that's

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the most important thing is get yourself comfortable first and the child will follow. And

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the other thing that I will say is when you are with the birth family and the birth parents,

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if you are demonstrating a genuine love for them, you're also demonstrating to your child,

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it's kind of an underlying message that I love all of you, all of you that came from them and

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all of you that is whatever you're going to become yourself. And that's a really important

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underlying message. So if you are together with them and show that respect and that love,

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that child is getting such a strong message from you.

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100%. That's fantastic. So you were navigating open adoption before it was really a commonplace

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thing. So even today, we hear from so many prospective and adoptive parents who feel

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frustrated because there's a lack of education, a lack of resources as they try to navigate this

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openness. So what helped you and your family as you did this?

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Yeah, you know, that's a really good question. And by the way,

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because there's such a lack, that's really kind of why I wanted to write my book. But honestly,

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what helped us the most was the love that we developed with the birth moms, particularly

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during the pregnancy. Now, I know that there are a lot of pros and cons with matching

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before the birth. And I will say that for our family, actually for the first one, we had a

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six month, or married, we were matched. We were matched six months before the birth. And then in

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the second one, we were matched three months before the birth. And what happened during that

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period of time was we got to know each other, and we genuinely got to trust and to love each other.

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Now, of course, I really understand the downside is that an expecting mother is a mother who is

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expecting mother, if they are in a relationship with the adoptive parents with the hopeful adoptive

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parents before the birth, then it makes it so much more difficult for her if she does decide in the

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end that she doesn't want to place which of course is her right. So you do have to weigh that. But I

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will just say for us, that helped us tremendously because after the baby was born, we wanted to see

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each other, I wanted to see them as much as they wanted to see us. And the other thing that I will

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say, and this was the other big surprise to me, when they came to visit us, they wanted to see the

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baby, but they wanted to see us as much as they wanted to see the baby, because we had a

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relationship with each other that was really significant. So that's what helped us the most.

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That's beautiful. And that makes sense, right? Like, before you have built that relationship,

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it might seem scary and really daunting. But once you have that love, and you've matched the space

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to this person, who's become a part of your family, it becomes something you want, instead of something

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that you became scary, or maybe seems like you're not sure about it, it just shifts the mindset

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completely shifts when there's that genuine connection. It does, it does. And they are your family.

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Yeah, I love that. All right, so can you please share more about your book? I would love to hear more about that.

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Yes, thank you, Lanette. I would love to talk a little bit more about my book. So the name of my book

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is The Branches We Cherish, and it's called An Open Adoption Memoir. And of course, it is written

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from the perspective of an adoptive mom, because that's who I am. But what I am most proud about

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is that I worked very hard at getting all of the voices in this book. So all for the birth parents,

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as well as my two children, I interviewed them for the book. So all of their voices are in there.

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And in fact, there's a piece written by one of the birth fathers in here, there's a piece written by

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one of the birth mothers, and there's a piece written by one of the birth grandmothers. So

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I tried to include not only all the great stuff, because there's a lot of great stuff about open

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adoption, but there are a lot of challenges too. And so I tried to give a balance in this book on

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the challenges, as well as, you know, how where we came out. And I will say that I would have

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devoured this book when I was a waiting parent. And I truly wrote it so that I could help the

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people that come after me. And one of the things in my research, I just learned so much, but I've

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decided that all author prophets from this book are going to go to provide support and therapy

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to adopted persons and to birth parents. And the reason is that I learned that one third of all

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adolescents referred to for psychotherapy are actually adopted. And it's not surprising. And

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finding an adoption competent therapist is very difficult. We actually needed therapists for our

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children once they got into their adolescent years. And I didn't seek an adoption competent

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therapist, because A, I didn't even know whether or not they existed. But at that time, I still

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was naive enough to think that my children's issues had nothing to do with adoption, because

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we were in an open arrangement. But now I can more clearly see the connections. And I do talk about

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those in the book, which is kind of interesting. But the other thing I had already mentioned that

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I learned that the birth parents did not get the support and counseling that they needed to deal

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with their grief. Just seeing us was not enough. And it actually broke my heart when I heard about

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what a difficult time they were having and really worked at hiding from us. So I think that's so

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important. And there is an organization called On Your Feet Foundation that I do support with

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profits from the book. So those things are very, very important to me.

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Wow, I love that you're supporting that organization through your book. That's an incredible

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way to make a difference. Thank you, Lanette. So what are some of the biggest challenges that

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you think the adoption community faces? I feel like we've touched on some of those as you've been

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speaking the last few minutes. Yeah. What do you think some of those challenges are?

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Yeah, we have talked about some of them. But honestly, I think some of the biggest challenges

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remain ethical adoptions. I mean, 30 years ago, ethical adoptions were an issue. I would say that

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anybody, any adoptive parent considering or hopeful adoptive parent, they really need to think long and

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hard about the agency or the attorney or the consultant they're working with. And are they

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an ethical agency? And I found this organization called Adopt Match that actually has a database

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where you can put in the name of the agency or whoever you're working with. And if there's a

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red flag, they will show you that there's a red flag with this agency. So that helps. But there's

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four principles to ethical adoptions that they use as they look at different agencies. Number one is,

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do they have written post adoption contract agreements? Second, is there separate legal

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representation for the expectant moms that is separate from the adoptive parents? In our case,

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by the way, there wasn't. I do talk about that in the book, but you want to make sure that that's

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separate. And it's only because that was still the best practice 30 years ago. Our agency was ethical.

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It's just we were following the best practices at the time. The third thing is reasonable and

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justifiable fees for adoptive parents. You should ask, where are these fees going to? And finally,

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high quality post placement counseling for the birth mothers. Are they taking care of the birth

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mothers post placement? And if, if you can satisfy yourself on those four things, you're probably

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dealing with a good ethical agency. I love that. That's a really great actionable list.

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We've talked on the show before in the past about some of these issues with agencies, but I don't

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think we've ever had such a great concise list of what to be looking for. Thank you. Good, good.

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We have had some of our listeners ask us a few questions lately. I thought that you would be

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really well equipped to help us as we try to digest some of these questions. Okay, sure.

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So we have one listener write in and say that they were having a really hard time managing

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different levels of openness and siblings adoptions, right? So we're dealing with siblings

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who were adopted from different biological families and the open adoption looks different for both of

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them. And how do you manage that? Or maybe some kids have a closed adoption and then their sibling

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has an open adoption. What do you do in these situations where it's not really? Yeah, that is,

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that is something that I would say to pay close attention to. And I kind of learned a lesson.

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I guess I'll just tell you about my situation. I would say that, um, I mentioned that we did

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get transferred out of town. So our visits had to be really well planned. And I would say that for

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our children, they probably saw and knew about their birth mothers at about the same level,

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if you will. But the real difference came with us with the birth fathers, one of the birth fathers

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we knew, but never visited. Um, and the other birth father was actually the most engaged out

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of the four birth parents. And he was the one that he saw us every year, no matter what. And not only

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did he see us, his mom and dad came as well as his siblings. So this was a family that we ended up

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getting very close to. And they were always very, very respectful though, of both of the children,

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which is really important that when they come and they bring gifts that they bring gifts for

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obviously the, the, their biological child connection, but they also bring gifts for the

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other one. And this family was very good at doing that. But the thing that I found out is that my

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oldest is the one that whose birth father, we knew him and we exchanged cards and letters. So it

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wasn't like we were estranged or anything. It's just that I didn't pay attention. I was more

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concerned about the birth moms. And when my child was 25 years old, they said to me, you know, mom,

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that really hurt my self-esteem growing up because I'm thinking, well, what about my birth dad? Who

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is this guy? Why doesn't he come and visit me? And so on and so forth. So having your child say,

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Hey, that really hurt my self-esteem. I knew I should have paid a little bit closer attention

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and I could have gotten on a plane and taken them to see their birth father, but it just,

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you know, didn't seem that all that important to me because, you know, we exchanged pictures,

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et cetera, but just a quick little story about this birth father. It turns out when our oldest

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was 17 years old, their birth father and birth mother got back together and married each other.

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And we went to the wedding and they have a child right now who is three years old.

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And of course my, and, and, and my child is, has a full birth sibling now. And of course they've

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gone to visit them multiple times. So it's just a very sweet story. And now they know their birth

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father very well because they go visit their birth mom and the birth dad and their full birth sibling.

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And it's, it's a wonderful outcome, but yeah, those things do happen and you do have to pay

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attention to them. But if you had the spirit of openness all along, you can end up in a really

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good place. Great to hear. And it's challenging, right? Because you can't force a relationship to,

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right? Like if they're not really up for open adoption right now, you can't make it happen.

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Yeah. Yeah. But talking about it is important. I just think if I would have talked about it,

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I think it would have helped them. Yeah. I love that. That's great advice. And so we have a lot

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of questions that come in that are on this next line where adoptive families are struggling with

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knowing how to deal with challenging relationships. We hear about things like emotional immaturity

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coming from family members where they're just not really sure how to handle that or no shows to

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visits where the child gets really sad that they don't get to see their birth family or sometimes

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power struggles where feelings are hurt and people are feeling like their toes are being stepped on

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or they're stepping on someone else's toes and how to handle these different challenges that

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might be part of these relationships. Yeah. That is, and I do hear those things, you know,

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time and time again, where things can get really challenging. I would say this, particularly with

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birth parents and particularly early on, you really have to meet birth mom and birth dad where they

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are and kind of getting back to this thing about recognizing their grief. So they may very well be

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going through a period of time where they just can't show up. And, you know, I think it's the

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way you think about it. So rather than thinking about it as, you know, why didn't they show up or,

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you know, disappointing my kid again, try to get yourself into their head and think, you know,

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so I wonder what's going on with them right now that they were unable to show up this time and

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reach out to them in a way that just says, hey, we're here for you when you're ready. And you just

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have to be honest with your child about that, that, you know, your birth mom might be going

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through a hard time and just can't see you this time. And it doesn't, all I can say is you got to

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be honest and you need to not get upset, but just continue to be open because chances are if you

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keep that spirit of openness, they will come back and you will, you'll be able to kind of heal that

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relationship hopefully. And if you can't do it with the birth parent, like I said, reach out for

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somebody else in that biological family, because that grandmother or that sibling or that aunt or

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uncle can really do a great deal to help bridge that gap for that child.

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I love that so much. Two words just kept coming back to my mind as you were speaking. I feel like

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you were saying these words or other words like them, compassion and honesty. And I think that

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both of those are so key to healthy relationships in general, but especially open adoption

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relationships. I love that. Yeah. All right. Well, Linda, I have loved talking to you. What else

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would you like to talk about today? Well, Lanette, I think we've covered quite a lot and I'm really

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appreciate being here. And the only thing I would like to do is to encourage your listeners to visit

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my website. It's lindarsexton.com and you can obviously learn about my book there, but also I

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do blogs. I blog when I have a story. So I do have some pretty interesting stories up there.

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And then I've also done a series of 10 short videos on the 10 things I wish I knew at the start of my

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open adoption journey. And if you happen to sign up for my blogs, which means you'll just get an

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email when I get one of them, I will send you a document with the 10 things I wish I had known.

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So there's a little incentive to sign up there, but please visit my website and, you know, good

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luck on your own journey. No matter where you are, just keep putting one foot in front of the other.

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It's a journey well worth taking. Thank you so very much for being here. That's been so helpful.

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Thank you, Lanette.

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Well, again, we just want to give a huge thanks to Linda for spending some time with us and sharing

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about her experiences. Go check out her website, go check out her book, links to both of those are

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in the show notes for today. And as I am just kind of contemplating this conversation, as I've had

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the opportunity to listen to it now a couple of times, I think it's just so vital that we as

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members of the adoption community put the experience of the adoptee first. And I love

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when Linda shared and I think I had a similar experience going into adoption the first time

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that, you know, open adoption was maybe about healing for birth parents. And I think that maybe

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that was my perception in the beginning as well. But as we've now been, you know, involved in

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adoption for 14, about 14 years, I've really come to see that the open relationships, while definitely

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beneficial for birth parents is vital for our children. So I'm really glad that she highlighted

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that and so many other great points. Again, we're just so grateful for her and for her willingness

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to be with us on the podcast today. We're so grateful for you as listeners, as always, if you

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have any questions or would like to recommend someone that we interview, please reach out to

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us at openadoptionproject.gmail.com or on Instagram at openadoptionproject. Thanks so much for

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listening to this episode.