1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,000 Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 112, We're the Nelsons. I'm Lanette. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:12,000 And I'm Shaun. And we are really excited for this episode and to be able to share this conversation with you. 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Today we talk with Jeff Thompson. 4 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:20,000 Jeff Thompson is a leading scholar of meaningful work and motivation. 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:26,000 He's the inaugural director of Brigham Young University's Sorensen Center for Moral and Ethical Leadership. 6 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:31,000 And he's a professor at the Marriott School of Business where he teaches in the MPA program. 7 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:36,000 He earned a PhD in organizational behavior at the University of Minnesota in 1999. 8 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:43,000 Shaun and I both took classes from him in the MPA program and we really admire and respect him. 9 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,000 He's a wonderful academic and scholar and teacher. 10 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:52,000 He's just really fun and just really easy to connect with. So personable. 11 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:59,000 Yeah, I love taking his class. I've loved being connected with him since and I loved having this conversation with him. 12 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:09,000 Yeah, throughout the class I just found myself thinking so often about how a lot of these organizational behavior principles we learned about also applied in adoption relationships. 13 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:19,000 And so a little more about Dr. Thompson. Dr. Thompson has won awards for his research on work as a calling and he's appeared in top management journals. 14 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:24,000 He's the author of The Zookeeper's Secret along with his colleague Stuart Bunderson, 15 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:30,000 which is a practical guide to discovering one's calling in life geared toward Latter-day Saint audiences. 16 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:37,000 And Dr. Thompson enjoys theater performance, racquetball, history, genealogy, literature, and travel. 17 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:43,000 He and his wife Amy are the parents of four children ages 30 to 20 and have three grandchildren. 18 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,000 Yeah, I actually remember one of the shows that we went and saw that he was in. 19 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:52,000 Yeah, it was like an old like I think it was the original take of You've Got Mail. 20 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:58,000 Yeah, it was Shuffling in the Corner, but the one before that the title that shows evolved. Anyway, it was so good. 21 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:04,000 It was fun. Well, anyway, again, we're really excited to share this conversation with Jeff Thompson and to learn from him. 22 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:11,000 We'll jump to that conversation now. 23 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:18,000 We are here on the podcast with Dr. Jeff Thompson. Professor Thompson is someone who Shaun and I both really admire and respect. 24 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:27,000 We're so grateful to have him here with us teaching us. Yeah, Lanette and I both completed our MPAs at BYU and Jeff was 25 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:34,000 one of the first professors we both had in that program and we learned a lot. So we're we're really excited to have you here today, Jeff. 26 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:40,000 Well, I'm honored to be here and let me just publicly say that you're both really good students too. 27 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,000 Thank you. 28 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:52,000 I mean, I was a student in the year of Zoom and 2020 right and so I don't know. That was a tricky one. Yep. Wild. Yeah, it was good times. 29 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:59,000 Well, there's a couple things, Dr. Thompson that we would like to consider while we're here with you today. 30 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:06,000 High level we want to talk about the importance of being an active listener and active listening. 31 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:19,000 And how do we bring psychological safety for those in in the relationships that we have and also a couple skills on conflict resolution and maybe how to handle some crucial conversation. 32 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:25,000 So we have some questions for you and I are really excited to hear what you can help us learn. 33 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,000 Sure thing. I'm happy to happy to share. 34 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:45,000 All right. Well, first off, let's talk about active listening. So in relationships, I feel like listening is one of those really important skills, but in our own adoption relationships and open adoptions, we have found that with both birth family members and with our 35 00:03:45,000 --> 00:04:00,000 family members, listening is even more key and vital. It's such a big aspect of having healthy and strong relationships. So can you tell us what is active listening, what does it look like, what does it feel like. 36 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:08,000 Yeah, that's such a great question. And I have to say from from my perspective, I've probably thought more about listening. 37 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:25,000 For the last three years than at any other point in my career. So as you mentioned in the intro, I'm the director of a new center at Brigham Young University, the Sorensen Center for moral and ethical leadership and in striving to teach leadership to our students 38 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:31,000 in the way that that matches our vision and mission. 39 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:42,000 Listening is everything. I mean, listening listening is so essential to leadership that I don't believe you can effectively lead without a highly developed ability to listen. 40 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:51,000 So, so I'm glad that you're leading out this question because it's it's so fundamental and it's fundamental in the things that we're trying to train our students to do. 41 00:04:51,000 --> 00:05:11,000 So when you talk about active listening compared to passive listening and active listener is engaged in the conversation is doing things like, you know, nonverbal affirmations, restatements, active listening involves. 42 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:30,000 And the irony here is sometimes we do we do visually less in active listening than we do in passive listening because an active listener is constantly inviting and a lot of inviting people to keep speaking is keeping your own mouth shut. 43 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:37,000 And not hijacking the conversation. So that's really important. 44 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:43,000 And another concept to the conversation though and it's one that we've been focusing on with our students here at the center. 45 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:50,000 We're training students to be leadership coaches. And I'll just give a little background on that. 46 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:58,000 I've always thought of coaching as something an athletic coach does where you you know you yell at someone and tell them what to do and you correct what they're doing wrong. 47 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:13,000 The type of coaching that we're training leadership coaching is really a process of deep listening, where your coach asks really probing questions and then carefully listens to your response and helps you make sense of your own response. 48 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:28,000 So when you're engaging with a really effective leadership coach, you are learning from yourself and you're you're you're reflecting on your own words, and it takes some really powerful skills to be able to coach in that way. 49 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:42,000 So, with that as backdrop, let me kind of give you coaching 101. One of the most fundamental of the first things we teach students is the difference between level one and level two listening, which is somewhat related to 50 00:06:42,000 --> 00:07:02,000 active listening but level one listening is you're listening to someone to connect them to your reality. Okay, so you meet someone on the street, you say hey where are you from, and they say, I'm from Tuala, and you say, Oh, I have a friend from Tuala, do you know. 51 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:15,000 And, and all of a sudden we're working to connect that person to us, which is the basis of, you know, building a lot of relationships in the way that we usually do it. 52 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:32,000 But you notice how the attention shifts. It sort of becomes, I am interested in hearing from you, only to the extent that it relates to my reality. And so, level two listening keeps the focus entirely on the other individual. 53 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:49,000 So if someone says, Oh, I'm from Tuala, you might respond by saying, What was it like living there. Now, what did you enjoy about it, what do you miss about being in Tuala, and you're actually allowing them to dive deeper into their reality so powerful 54 00:07:49,000 --> 00:08:06,000 leadership, powerful, powerful influence of other people focuses more on level two listening, where we are helping someone sort of dig into their, their values, their beliefs, their perceptions their misperceptions, and allowing them to explore it. 55 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,000 It's a very generous thing to listen at level two. 56 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:29,000 I feel like we've probably seen that both in in our personal relationship with each other as a couple, but also in our interaction with the biological families of our children, and that we want them to know that we are genuinely invested in them as individuals. 57 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:48,000 And so, asking those level two questions, I think helps them feel that genuine interest. One of the follow up questions we had for you on this is, how does that type of listening then impact relationships, what have you researched or what have you learned about that. 58 00:08:48,000 --> 00:09:10,000 Yeah, I mean just observationally with the students that we're training and level two listening. They tell us that it changes all of their relationships with their roommates with their families, you know, and their, with their teammates at in in school, because what it does is provides a testament to the other 59 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:26,000 person's worth. I am not talking to you as an instrument to talk about me. I am I am talking about you, and about your experience and we're just going to keep digging into that and it, it may never come back to me and that's okay because I'm here for you. 60 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:44,000 And when you engage in that sort of listening with family members romantic partners associates. That builds a lot of trust and a lot of recognition that you have someone who is fundamentally interested in you for who you are and your own experience. 61 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:50,000 So it, it can be transformational to learn to communicate in that way. 62 00:09:50,000 --> 00:10:07,000 This is maybe an awkward thing to bring up, but you are so good at this presser function you really are. I remember that there was this thing that we did during the semester that took organizational behavior from you where we would meet on zoom with you and talk about, like, 63 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:21,000 like how class was going, how the beginning of the program was going. And I met with you one time and I remember you asked a bunch of really great proving questions and I ended up. You probably don't remember this but I was just like in tears talking about these 64 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:37,000 weird things that were going on in my life, and I felt so I felt really awkward silly but I felt so safe bringing these things up because it felt like you genuinely cared about these things that were going on. 65 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:53,000 So I just a little plug. Thanks for talking about. Thanks. Thanks for sharing that I, I wish with what you're describing was, I wish I was always that successful at, I must have been having a good day. 66 00:10:53,000 --> 00:11:08,000 Well, so our listeners are probably or yeah our listeners are here, probably thinking well what what can I do now to improve my own ability and listening and I mean one I think is just asking those maybe follow up questions like you mentioned but are 67 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:17,000 there any other skills or any other recommendations that you'd give to our listeners for how they might improve their, their own active listening skills. 68 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:31,000 I think we'll probably talk about this a little bit more later but getting getting kind of out of the way of our own emotions when we're listening and really 69 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:40,000 exhibiting the trust in someone that I can fully hear you out before I need to talk about my own stuff. 70 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:50,000 And the irony there is, if we are willing to be that selfless in saying I want to fully understand you first. 71 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:58,000 It dramatically increases the chances that the other person is going to be willing to hear us out as well. There's no guarantee they may not. 72 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:14,000 It makes it much more likely that because they have felt deeply heard that they will then be willing to hear, hear your perspective. So, I think it's almost like a switch that you throw in your head. 73 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:29,000 And it's interesting because we can provide students, an hour of training and practice and level two listening, and they can begin to implement it. So it is not really a, you know, it's not, it's not neuroscience. 74 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:41,000 It's not something that takes years and years of training. It's just sort of a personal commitment to say, I'm going to go into this conversation, more interested in that person than I am in myself. 75 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:50,000 I'm going to stay in there as long as they need and trust that eventually I'm going to have a chance to share my voice. 76 00:12:50,000 --> 00:13:06,000 So I think that's the challenge that I would have for your listeners is to try that out. Just change that frame of mind. And you can try it on a stranger that you meet on the bus or a coworker that you haven't talked to for a while. 77 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:15,000 It's a laboratory. I mean, everything in life is an opportunity to practice this really key powerful skill. 78 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,000 I feel like with our kids. 79 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:33,000 Over the years, there have been a few times where I've come out and just said, you know, you're allowed to feel whatever you want to feel about being adopted right like any feelings are safe. I hope you always feel safe and comfortable telling me whatever you're feeling like it's 80 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:56,000 okay. And it always surprises me it shouldn't anymore, but it always surprises me how there's one of them that will like that will resonate. One time when I say even though I've said it before right like, yeah, I'm where it just sparked something in them, and like oh wait, I feel valid and having whatever my feelings are today. 81 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:03,000 Even though I thought that would implanting that seed. So I feel like it's such an ongoing process. 82 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:15,000 Open listening. That is such a great insight, you know, we, we like to, I think we fool ourselves into thinking that we have a conversation and then it's done. 83 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:33,000 But our entire relationship is a conversation and re asking old questions is not redundant, because as we evolve where you know we're at, we're, we're a slightly new person every day and we'll have new epiphanies and new challenges. 84 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:47,000 So thinking about staying in that conversation with your adopted children for their entire lives you know this, this conversation of you being safe and sharing your feelings that conversations never over, we never check it off. 85 00:14:47,000 --> 00:15:05,000 Yeah, and I think for for our listeners who are maybe recent adopted parents or those hoping to adopt to this, this topic is really important for the relationship between us and our child's or children's birth parents, where at different phases of our 86 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:17,000 relationship we're going to experience and feel different things and just because we asked them one time, how they want to connect or have, you know, certain conversations in our relationship. 87 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:32,000 That doesn't mean that that answer won't change over time and so I that for me, it just making me feel like I need to ask some of those questions on repeat to the different cadence, so that I understand the ever evolving experience of our children's 88 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,000 parents. 89 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:53,000 I feel like this flows really organically into psychological safety and this concept of feeling safe, opening up and being vulnerable sharing our hearts with others. So can you share a bit about what, what is psychological safety, how do you explain it to people who don't know. 90 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,000 So, 91 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:03,000 how would I define it. 92 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:19,000 I'll take a stab at it, psychological safety is a state in which people feel liberated and trusting in sharing vulnerable information. 93 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:44,000 A lot of the research, in fact, when I when I taught this concept to you in class, it was in the context of teams and teamwork and research on what makes effective teams has really come up short with giving us any sort of, you know, magic formula like you need, you know, three women and two men and you need high IQ or low, you need extroverts, etc. 94 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:56,000 I mean, social scientists have looked at all of those factors and there doesn't seem to be an algorithm that says here's how you create an effective team. 95 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:10,000 Really, the only theme that runs throughout all effective teams as far as social scientists have detected is that teams experience psychological safety. 96 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:18,000 Effective teams experience psychological safety, which means I can tell my teammates if I'm having a bad day. 97 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,000 We can talk about disagreements. 98 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:31,000 And I don't fear retribution. I don't fear politics, because these are people that I can trust. 99 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:43,000 I feel really grateful right now to be working with a team that I believe has a high degree of psychological safety, which doesn't mean it's all roses and unicorns every day. 100 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:59,000 You know, we have hard conversations and we face up to tough issues, but we disagree pretty openly and we sort of push and challenge each other because we know we can and the relationship will still be in place. 101 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:15,000 So psychological safety is establishing that level of trust that we can be vulnerable and we can disagree and not worry that it's going to negatively affect the feelings we have for each other. 102 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:34,000 I love that. I feel like in adoption, that might look like a birth parent saying, hey, you know, I really would like to see my child more often like can we have visits more often without being afraid that adoptive parents will feel threatened and say, oh no, we're not going to have visits for a year now because you said that right? 103 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:39,000 Like, it's safe to talk about different feelings and different needs. 104 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:50,000 Well, yeah, and I think one of the phrases that you said is feeling, feeling able to do so without any, any fear of retribution right? 105 00:18:50,000 --> 00:19:07,000 I think that that's a pretty human innate, I guess, feeling that we might have rights to actually voice how we feel, and maybe knowing that it might change a relationship or it might change how someone else feels toward us. 106 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:23,000 I'm curious if, obviously, you've studied this and taught this in the team setting, but when you're thinking of a one to one relationship or a more familiar relationship, what have you learned and maybe what could you share that might help us here? 107 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:36,000 So one to one relationships regarding psychological safety. I would say that the deepest, most enduring and most meaningful friendships, I have 108 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:48,000 are ones that have involved getting through conflict rather than never having it. 109 00:19:48,000 --> 00:20:11,000 And, you know, I'm thinking of one example of a dear friend from for decades that we had, we had on occasion, a couple of times heart to hearts where we really saw the world differently and had to 110 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:19,000 come to terms with those difference differences in order to continue working together. 111 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:24,000 And 112 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:42,000 in the effort of getting through that and getting through that is not the right way to put it in in the effort of navigating those differences and those conflicts from a place of love and acceptance. 113 00:20:42,000 --> 00:21:00,000 It's really created a foundation for a level of trust that I know if we had conflict again, we know exactly what to do. And so it's not something I need to be afraid of. 114 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:18,000 So I do feel very psychologically safe in that relationship, not because of the absence of tensions, but because of the evidence that our commitment to our friendship is greater than those tensions. 115 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:23,000 I love that thought that the most fulfilling relationships aren't 116 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:34,000 devoid of any conflict, right, but that being able to work through that conflict is really what brings fulfilling connections. I love that. 117 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:40,000 Yeah, we don't, we don't really value things that we don't that come easy. 118 00:21:40,000 --> 00:22:02,000 Right. We give value to the and this is a this is a core psychological principle, right, that which we put effort into we become more committed to. And so the deepest relationships are the ones where we foster psychological safety, not by avoiding conflict because that's not a relationship, keeping the piece is not a relationship. 119 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:16,000 We establish psychological safety by showing to one another, we're willing to be vulnerable, we're willing to face differences and be committed that we're going to keep at it until we've worked through it together. 120 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:24,000 Yeah, that's great. And I think that this is also a great segue into talking a little bit more about conflict resolution. I don't know if you have a follow up. 121 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:42,000 I do have a quick question. I'm wondering, how do we get to the point where we established psychological safety and relationship, where other parties might be a little resistant to that right like wanting to avoid any conflict, or not really wanting to be as vulnerable and open. 122 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:53,000 How do you establish that safety if it's more one sided. Yeah, if it feels that way maybe at first yeah. Yeah. Well, there's no magic answer because everyone makes a choice about what they're willing to do. 123 00:22:53,000 --> 00:23:11,000 They're willing to share and how much they're willing to trust. So what we can do is work on the conditions of the relationship that we contribute. And like I said earlier, maximize the likelihood of a good outcome and so I'm going to dial back a little bit to what we talked about with with listening. 124 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:30,000 And I think investing in a deep understanding of someone is is really key. So if you have someone who's being resistant, and you're experiencing conflict, and they are not willing to either open up or they're not willing to de escalate their emotions. 125 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:57,000 I always have the option of hearing them fully and validating everything I can validate, even if I disagree with their fundamental proposition. I can say, wow, this seems really hard for you, I sense of a lot of emotion here, you know, what's going on behind this emotion I know what it's like to feel angry and I see that and I'd love to hear more about that and 126 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:10,000 All of the things that we can do to allow another person to feel heard dramatically increases the likelihood that they're that they're going to feel safe and be willing to be more open with you. 127 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,000 No guarantees. 128 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:28,000 But, but that's the best shot we have. And I had a I had a professor colleague once who was talking about you know dealing with disgruntled students and students are upset about their grades. 129 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:34,000 And he said you have to understand compassion never costs you anything. 130 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:49,000 And I think we feel like the moment I show compassion I've lost the moment I, I look at someone and say, Oh, I can see you're angry that must be really hard and I understand why you might be angry that somehow, you know we're losing the competition. 131 00:24:49,000 --> 00:25:05,000 So that's, that means you don't have psychological safety yet because psychological safety happens when it's not a competition and I am willing to just give compassion because it's free. 132 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:24,000 I think we should create some T shirts, Dr. Thompson. Maybe that's the term of that thought it's really really good. Um, maybe let's jump in and dive into a little bit about conflict resolutions or resolution misunderstandings in life are inevitable. 133 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:35,000 For sure in relationships, and for sure in in adoption relationships there's, that's not immune. So we'd love to talk about this a little bit. 134 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:49,000 If someone is struggling with a challenge where the relationship is important. And the issues are like, they have issues that are just weighing on them, what would you suggest how do they proceed in in those feelings. 135 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,000 Yeah. 136 00:25:51,000 --> 00:26:06,000 So I, I teach principles from the book crucial conversations which is, you know, it's not the only source of conflict management training. 137 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:20,000 And I do not represent the company that produces the book, but I have found the principles to be very useful. And, you know, without going into a deep lecture on all of the different components. 138 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:28,000 I guess, I guess I would just highlight a couple of things. 139 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:43,000 Let me, let me start with one that might be a little different than what than what you're thinking, but I think it connects to with what we've been talking about. So, I've had this happen 1000 times and maybe you have as well, you're having a conversation with your 140 00:26:43,000 --> 00:27:01,000 spouse, everything seems to be going fine. And then suddenly, something's off, you know, and, and you can tell either that your partner is now frustrated or you're frustrated and you don't know why there are these microcosm moments where it 141 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,600 and what has been just safe and comfortable 142 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,200 is all of a sudden frot. 143 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:07,840 I'm glad to see both of you are nodding. 144 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:08,680 This is not just my area. 145 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,040 This is definitely not just you. 146 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:11,880 Okay. 147 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,440 So when that happens, 148 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,040 the way that we talk about it in crucial conversations 149 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,080 is safety has been violated, 150 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,680 either for the other person or for yourself. 151 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,640 And we may not even know why. 152 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,800 Something just triggers this sense of, ah, 153 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,560 this is not safe. 154 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,960 We can get better at recognizing those moments 155 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:33,640 and processing those moments 156 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,480 rather than allowing them to escalate. 157 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,040 So there's this wonderful tool that's called stepping out. 158 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,520 So stepping out is, I think, 159 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,080 one of the key things you have to learn 160 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,000 in order to manage a conflict 161 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,640 because in that moment when the tweak happens, 162 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,120 when that line is crossed, 163 00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:55,880 that's the time to say, 164 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,960 whoa, wait a minute, what just happened here? 165 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:00,800 So the stepping out function, 166 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,120 or the stepping out skill basically says, 167 00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:06,720 in that moment we stop the conversation 168 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,960 and we step out and talk about the conversation. 169 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,760 So it's not like, 170 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,520 why do you guys get mad at me for not mowing the lawn? 171 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,200 That would be driving deeper into the content. 172 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,520 Instead, I'm gonna step out and say, 173 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,320 okay, what just happened here? 174 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,240 I think I'm gonna go to the bathroom 175 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:26,680 and I'm gonna say, what just happened here? 176 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,440 I think maybe I said something 177 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:29,920 that put you on the defensive. 178 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,040 Or I might say, I need to process a little bit here 179 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,200 because I had a twinge of something. 180 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,200 Can we figure that out? 181 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,240 And so once we remove ourselves 182 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,040 from the thing we're conflicting about, 183 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:42,680 now we're talking about the relationship, 184 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,040 which is us and how we talk. 185 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,960 And it's not judgmental, it's more observational. 186 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,320 Like, hey, what just happened here? 187 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,360 Let's get really curious about this. 188 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:52,520 There's a little tweak. 189 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,080 I'm expressing this to you as if I have this mastered. 190 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:56,920 Right? 191 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,280 As if I get this right every time. 192 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:00,680 I do not. 193 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,120 It's the work of a lifetime to become attuned 194 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,760 to those micro moments when conflict begins to happen 195 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,760 and we step out and work on the relationship 196 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,360 rather than drilling into the conflict. 197 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,120 So that I find is a wonderful tool. 198 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,240 There's this old YouTube video 199 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,160 about a woman that has a nail in her forehead. 200 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:22,000 Do you remember this? 201 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,000 Yeah. 202 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:24,680 And it's not about the nail, right? 203 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:29,040 Like stepping back and forgetting whatever the contention 204 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,960 or the argument is about and addressing the relationship. 205 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,160 I think that is some great advice, 206 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:36,880 especially in some of the relationships 207 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,600 that our audience might be managing. 208 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:40,440 Yeah. 209 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,200 It's even greater if you follow it. 210 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:43,280 And I don't always. 211 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:45,440 Yeah. 212 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,480 To know it conceptually is helpful, 213 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,160 but to actually put it into practice, it's challenging. 214 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:51,200 Yeah. 215 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:52,400 So I think the second thing 216 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:53,640 that I would share about conflict, 217 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,280 I'm happy to go back and talk more about that 218 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:56,120 if you wanted to. 219 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:56,960 No, no, no. 220 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:57,800 I think that's great. 221 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,080 The second thing is what do you do 222 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,400 if you are the one that needs to deliver a tough message? 223 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,520 And I think this happens in parenting, 224 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,200 it happens in our relationships, 225 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,960 it happens everywhere that the other person 226 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,640 may not be feeling any conflict, 227 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,000 but you need to express a hard message 228 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,800 and engage in a difficult conversation. 229 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,040 Here is a key, and I found this to be so important 230 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,720 in crucial conversations, 231 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,720 is preparing for that conversation, 232 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,080 separating out fact from story. 233 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:40,000 Fact is the observable behaviors and actions 234 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:42,720 that are incontrovertible. 235 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,160 This is the sentence that I said, 236 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,640 or this is the behavior that I'm seeing in you. 237 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:55,120 Keeping that as sort of like the pure objective, 238 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,720 definable aspect of the conflict. 239 00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,560 And then you've got story. 240 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:04,080 And the story is your emotions, your interpretation, 241 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,320 your attribution of motive, all of that stuff, 242 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:13,320 which is subjective and imprecise. 243 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,760 Probably most of it's wrong, 244 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,600 but it's still our lived experience 245 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:19,800 as emotional human beings. 246 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,720 I mean, we are always going to have emotions, 247 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,000 but when we're preparing for that conversation, 248 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,760 we can say, okay, what are the facts that I can share 249 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:31,280 in a completely non-judgmental, non-accusatory way, 250 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,480 I saw this happen, I said this, I heard you say that. 251 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,560 I like to encourage my students to think about 252 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,960 just pulling out their phone and recording something. 253 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,880 Like what you see on the recording is the fact. 254 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,920 And then thinking about, okay, what's the story? 255 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,920 What am I telling myself? 256 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,280 What are the emotions I'm feeling? 257 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,160 And that's all me, I have to own that. 258 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,680 That's going on inside my brain and inside my heart. 259 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,680 So when we're approaching this conversation, 260 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,000 there's this, it's called the state model in chapter seven, 261 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,760 crucial conversations, my favorite chapter. 262 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,080 And it argues that we begin those conversations 263 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,600 with the facts, not with the story. 264 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,320 So you're working with a kid and rather than saying, 265 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,960 I'm so upset at you because you did this 266 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,560 and it shows how inconsiderate you are of me. 267 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,840 That's just like full of story. 268 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,680 But instead you might approach your child and say, 269 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,120 five minutes ago, I said this, do you remember that? 270 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,480 And your kid might actually nod, you know, at that point, 271 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,000 which is great, because when we're in the world of facts, 272 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,320 the other person can nod and agree with you. 273 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,240 And then if I remember correctly, you said this, 274 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,080 and suddenly we're building out a set of facts 275 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:50,040 that is a shared narrative where there's no judgment, 276 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,000 there's no attributions of intent. 277 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,840 Once we've established those facts, like, okay, 278 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,200 here's the story and we agree with the basic facts 279 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,360 of what happened, now I can own my story and say, 280 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,480 when I think about that, this is what I'm feeling. 281 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,080 And it's caused me to wonder if this is what's going on. 282 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,520 And I may be wrong about this, 283 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,720 but here's what I think is happening. 284 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,080 Now you notice I threw in a bunch of tentative language 285 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:15,120 in there as well. 286 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:16,040 And that's part of it. 287 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,720 We become tentative, well, we're tentative throughout 288 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,760 because we never have the full story. 289 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,760 But once we separate out fact from story, 290 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,360 we're inviting the other person to engage 291 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,840 with their stories, understand us better. 292 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,280 We're more likely to learn 293 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,560 from someone else's story as well. 294 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,880 So I love that and that has helped me time and time again 295 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,360 when I've had to approach kind of scary conversations 296 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,200 and didn't wanna get it wrong. 297 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,720 I try to establish the facts first 298 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,240 before moving into story. 299 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,960 And then moving into story tentatively 300 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,880 really propels us toward a conversation 301 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,160 where we learn from and hear each other. 302 00:33:58,160 --> 00:33:59,480 Yeah, I love that. 303 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,000 And I think it's really important for us to remember 304 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,520 that the way we interpret facts is different 305 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:06,360 than other people. 306 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,160 That the story that we're telling ourselves 307 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,000 will never match exactly the way 308 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,360 that somebody else is telling that story. 309 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,840 In professionally, I have the opportunity 310 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:16,600 to train a lot of supervisors. 311 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,240 And one example I used to use in the past was, 312 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,640 there's a fact, this woman is a single mother. 313 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:24,480 What's the story? 314 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:25,720 Why is she a single mother? 315 00:34:25,720 --> 00:34:28,280 And everyone has a different, 316 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,120 like, oh, well, she never knew the father 317 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:37,120 or her husband died or he left or like, right? 318 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,280 There's all of these different stories 319 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,120 that we might tell ourselves around this fact. 320 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,400 And we have to make sure that we can represent our story 321 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,160 in a way that doesn't offend others. 322 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:51,880 I love how you mentioned this, 323 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,720 but just talking really tentatively 324 00:34:53,720 --> 00:34:55,880 about why we're feeling the way that we're feeling 325 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,640 in a specific situation. 326 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,440 And we have to remember that no one is gonna see things 327 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:02,400 how we see them. 328 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:05,160 Yeah, that's really important. 329 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,560 It's, again, it's a skill that you have to practice 330 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,400 your whole life because it isn't the default 331 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:14,240 for human nature. 332 00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:17,520 The default is our emotions prevail. 333 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,000 Yeah, psychologists use the analogy 334 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,440 of the elephant and the rider. 335 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,040 The elephant is your emotional brain 336 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,760 and the rider is this tiny little, you know, 337 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,040 rational part of your brain 338 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,720 that's trying to guide those emotions. 339 00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:38,080 And if we don't exert some effort, 340 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,320 we will be emotionally driven. 341 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:45,320 And I'm not advocating that we deny our emotions 342 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,200 or that we suppress them or set them aside. 343 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,880 We channel them and we use them 344 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,760 to help make sense of the facts. 345 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:56,600 I love that. 346 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,600 And in adoption relationships, 347 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,720 these relationships are so important, right? 348 00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:02,560 And a lot of the time, like, 349 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,240 we are building these relationships for our children, right? 350 00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:07,880 We're trying to help set them up for a life of connection 351 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,480 with their biological families. 352 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,200 And so they're highly important relationships. 353 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,520 And maybe sometimes we're in territory 354 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:15,920 that seems unfamiliar, right? 355 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,040 Because we're working with family members 356 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,040 who've been in our family for less time. 357 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,760 And we don't have as much history with. 358 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,680 And so it can be really easy to tell the wrong stories 359 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,000 because we don't have access 360 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:32,880 to everything in their heads, right? 361 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:37,080 And so I love that idea of being so much more compassionate 362 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,480 and careful with how to listen and how we respond 363 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:45,480 because I don't think like 99.9% of the time, 364 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:46,880 I don't think people are malicious. 365 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,680 I think we're just living our own truths 366 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,160 and not understanding other people 367 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:54,480 have different lived experiences 368 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,400 and are manifesting that so differently, right? 369 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,520 We have an experience that we've had someone share 370 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,760 on our podcast or with us from the podcast 371 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:10,760 where there was a grandparent who was giving gifts 372 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:12,840 to one of the grandkids, right? 373 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:13,920 And then not other grandkids. 374 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:15,400 And it was a question of, well, 375 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,040 is this because like we have a biological child 376 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,800 and you're like loving the biological grandchild more 377 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,760 than these other grandchildren who are adopted. 378 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,200 What's going on here, right? 379 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,600 And when we can step back and avoid the emotion 380 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,280 and the assumptions, we can find better answers 381 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:33,760 and better understanding 382 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,400 without destroying relationships or connections. 383 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,680 Which really brings us back to the starting point 384 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,240 of this conversation and why I have come to believe 385 00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:47,240 that listening is one of the most fundamental skills 386 00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:52,240 for having a positive influence in people around you. 387 00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:56,200 Listening to appreciate another's story 388 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,280 it's transformational when we start acknowledging 389 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:09,640 the truths of other people's stories. 390 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,320 And I mean that with a small T, not the absolute truth 391 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,640 but the truth that they're living. 392 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,560 We can then be compassionate. 393 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,800 We can then make them feel psychologically safe 394 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,680 so that they can then hear us. 395 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,560 And as we put our two stories together 396 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,960 we come to something that's closer to an absolute truth. 397 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:28,800 Yeah. 398 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,920 So you've shared a lot of great information 399 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:32,920 about making it safe. 400 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:34,520 So if you had to boil that down 401 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:35,880 to like a couple of action items 402 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,880 that people can be like consciously trying to implement 403 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,000 in their lives, what might that look like? 404 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,960 Yeah, I think, well, to repeat 405 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,880 I would say practice level two listening 406 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:54,200 practice listening in order to understand someone fully 407 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,720 rather than injecting yourself and just see what you learned. 408 00:38:57,720 --> 00:39:00,560 That's an excellent, it's an excellent practice. 409 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,520 And like I said, everything's a laboratory 410 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,560 that where you can practice that skill. 411 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,120 And I think the second thing that really 412 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,760 I feel it feels most compelling to me 413 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:15,760 is separating fact from story, owning your story. 414 00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:20,040 And we didn't really get into this 415 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,040 but I think it sort of follows along. 416 00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:27,000 Once you recognize that your story is your own 417 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,880 it also gives you some agency to work on that story 418 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,280 to consider different interpretations 419 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,600 to be open to other explanations 420 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,760 for the emotions you're feeling 421 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,760 and really take ownership of your story and your emotions. 422 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:44,720 I feel like we could speak with you for hours 423 00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:46,560 and learn so much. 424 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,640 Well, we professors can talk a lot. 425 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:50,800 So don't push it too far. 426 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:51,960 You'll be here all afternoon. 427 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:53,400 No, no, you're so good. 428 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,720 Jeff, as you consider maybe who might be listening to this 429 00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:01,720 in these important and sometimes difficult 430 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:06,480 to manage relationships, any other advice 431 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,160 or suggestions that you might make 432 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,440 from your academic study? 433 00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:15,520 I think in any worthwhile endeavor 434 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,080 it's important to remember why you're doing it. 435 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,920 And when we lose the sense of why we can get discouraged 436 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:27,440 we can get tired and start to wonder if it's worth it. 437 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,760 I'm not an adoptive parent 438 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,760 but I see the work of adoption 439 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:41,760 of embracing a child into your home 440 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:47,680 to give them a life of love and growth 441 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,760 is really one of the most generous acts that I can imagine. 442 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,520 I know enough to know that there is pain 443 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,400 and there's sacrifice and there's confusion 444 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,800 and there's disappointment and then there's joy 445 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,880 and surprise and all of those things. 446 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:10,400 But I would say in the endeavor to try to manage 447 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,800 relationships with birth parents, 448 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,160 just making sure that you always connect to the why. 449 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,880 Why I'm doing this is going to make it all worthwhile. 450 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,440 I think that's incredible advice. 451 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,240 And probably a good note to end on. 452 00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:28,800 I think so. 453 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,840 Dr. Thompson, thank you so much for being with us 454 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,400 and sharing some of your expertise. 455 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:35,360 We know, like you mentioned, 456 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,600 we could probably keep you here for a couple hours 457 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,800 but I think what you did share with our listeners 458 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:43,800 will be really helpful. 459 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,520 So thank you so much. 460 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:46,560 My pleasure. 461 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,120 I'm honored that you asked 462 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,600 and I wish you well on this wonderful podcast 463 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,520 and the services that you're providing. 464 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:54,640 It's great. 465 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:59,640 Thanks so much. 466 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:01,880 Thanks again to Jeff. 467 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,280 We're so grateful that he was willing 468 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:05,320 to spend some time with us 469 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,040 and impart some of his wisdom with us. 470 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,160 Yeah, we were so grateful to hear from Dr. Thompson. 471 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,160 So we're really excited. 472 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,160 National Adoption Month is coming 473 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,040 in just a couple of days, November. 474 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:18,600 It's National Adoption Month. 475 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,800 And this year, as our way of recognizing that 476 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:22,720 here on the podcast, 477 00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:24,760 we will be having episodes once a week 478 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:26,760 rather than twice in the month. 479 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,520 And our episodes are going to be 480 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,960 adoptee-focused book club episodes 481 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,120 where we will have a guest adoptee join 482 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:36,680 in like a book club discussion 483 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,120 about some different adoption-themed books. 484 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,120 We have three episodes for sure, 485 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:42,240 potentially a fourth one, 486 00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:44,840 if we can get that one squeezed in. 487 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:46,840 We'll be talking about Far From the Tree 488 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:48,760 by Robin Benway, 489 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,400 Orphan Train by Christina Baker-Kline, 490 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,400 and The Girls Who Went Away by Anne Fessler. 491 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:55,960 So those are the ones that we're for sure 492 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:57,320 gonna talk about. 493 00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:58,600 And starting next week, 494 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,640 we're looking forward to learning. 495 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,960 So yeah, put those on your audiobook list 496 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:08,440 or go check them out at the library and read them. 497 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,600 And I mean, we call it book club, 498 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:11,720 but it's really a conversation 499 00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:13,800 between Lanette and one adoptee 500 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:15,720 and their kind of conversation 501 00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:18,560 and thoughts around the book. 502 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,680 They were really fun conversations. 503 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,520 I loved hearing all of these people's thoughts 504 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,840 on these different books and about adoption. 505 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,400 So I am excited for National Adoption Month. 506 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:29,240 That'll be great. 507 00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:31,840 And I was so excited that we could use this episode 508 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,440 as our way to kind of spring into National Adoption Month. 509 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,240 So we'll be back in your feed next week. 510 00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:38,760 Thanks so much for listening. 511 00:43:38,760 --> 00:44:06,760 Grundy Beat and Drunk Beauty music play