1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,480 Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 108. We're the Nelson's. I'm Shaun. 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:11,920 And I'm Lanette. And today we are really grateful for the opportunity to share a 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:16,520 first mom's perspective and experience with open adoption. We're going to hear 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,160 from Amy Seek. So Shaun has a conversation with Amy where they talk 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:25,980 about her experiences as a mother with placing and relinquishment with 6 00:00:25,980 --> 00:00:31,840 grappling with what adoption has meant for her in her life and how it's 7 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:38,600 impacted her, how it's impacted her son, and with the perspective that she placed 8 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:46,240 24 years ago and so she's had an extensive amount of time to really mull 9 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:52,800 over how this has impacted her, what it's looked like. And it's a really 10 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,920 challenging and vulnerable conversation and we're really grateful for her 11 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:01,800 sharing with us. Yeah so we'll jump to the recording of my conversation with 12 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:07,800 Amy and then share some of our thoughts and takeaways afterward. 13 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:14,000 Well we are now on the podcast with Amy Seek. Amy thank you so much for being 14 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:19,200 with us. Thanks very much for having me. Great well share with us a little bit 15 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:26,080 about yourself. How about let's get to know you. So I'm Amy Seek. I live in 16 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:30,920 New York City. Professionally I'm a landscape architect. I work on urban 17 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,400 parks and public realm design. I work on climate adaptive infrastructure. We're 18 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,920 raising shorelines all over to prepare for sea level rise. My passion is beauty. 19 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:45,040 I care about beauty above all things. But open adoption has been a part of my life 20 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:51,240 for 24 years. It's something I think about a lot. Within the world of adoption 21 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:57,120 I serve on the board of concerned United Birth Parents and I facilitate a first 22 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:01,440 families support group for the National Association of Adoptees and Parents. 23 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:08,160 I wrote a book about birth mother experience in open adoption. It's called 24 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:14,920 God in Jetfire and that was published when my son was 15 in 2015. And I 25 00:02:14,920 --> 00:02:19,400 have written a whole lot of essays on fertility adoption and motherhood and 26 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,240 I've also led lots of writing workshops for birth parents with the aim of 27 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:27,220 getting our work published. So I know there's like the writing for healing 28 00:02:27,220 --> 00:02:32,160 contingent. I'm very much about writing for publication so that our experiences 29 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:37,240 can be more broadly understood. And I'm working with my friend Rebecca Israel on 30 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:44,360 her film hashtag adoption which is going to be out before the end of this year. So 31 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:50,400 I have a successful open adoption in that it remains open for 24 years. But 32 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:55,440 time has taught me a lot about adoption which we'll talk about. And I really think 33 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,760 you can't draw any kind of conclusions about it until you see a little bit about 34 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:04,160 how it unfolds. And I mean things are continuing to change all the time even 35 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:10,080 24 years later. But knowing how my son feels about his adoption has really 36 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,720 solidified some of my feelings. And so I care very deeply about helping birth 37 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:21,720 mothers look at their options and work to preserve their family intact and to 38 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,960 relinquish a child only in the most extreme and insurmountable circumstances 39 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:32,000 and when they do to know their rights and have the support that they need. So 40 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,600 that is my intro. 41 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:39,720 Awesome. Thank you so much. We're again we're really excited to hear from you 42 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,240 about your personal story and also some of the great work that you've been doing. 43 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:49,520 And the community listening to this podcast ranges from adoptees to birth 44 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:53,800 parents to hopeful adoptive parents and family families and friends of all of 45 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:58,920 those. Right. So across across the spectrum of the adoption constellation. 46 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:03,120 And as we come together and have a space where we can share and learn together 47 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:09,200 we're all uplifted and we we gain another little piece to the puzzle for 48 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:14,320 our personal interpretation of how open adoption works in our own families and 49 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:19,600 how we can support and help others. So we're really again excited to to connect 50 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:24,000 with you and have you with us. If you wouldn't mind could you share a little 51 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,760 bit of your personal experience and then we'll jump into some follow up questions. 52 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,400 And I just want to say I appreciate what you just said and that this podcast is I 53 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:38,040 can see the evolution even of you guys through this podcast and how much you 54 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:44,640 appreciate the level of curiosity and really asking difficult questions. 55 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,880 And so I really appreciate I really appreciate that. 56 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:49,480 Thank you. 57 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:56,760 So my story is I gave up my son when I was 23 I was in college and I was not 58 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,000 ready to marry my boyfriend at the time. 59 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:05,040 And when I was introduced to the concepts of open adoption it sounded like a great 60 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:09,120 experience that would mitigate the pain of being separated from my son. 61 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:14,760 I did not know that anything about infant adoption or sorry infant trauma. 62 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,880 I thought that I was the one who was going to experience the real blow of the 63 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:22,920 separation. And so my curiosity when I was in counseling was really like am I 64 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,320 going to be able to survive this. I knew my son was going to be able to survive 65 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:32,320 it. And I believe that the key was finding the couple that we could trust. 66 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,560 If we found the couple we could trust we could work through all the inevitable 67 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,440 complexities that would be part of this relationship. 68 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,920 And so my boyfriend and I searched extensively. 69 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,600 We were we searched far beyond our own agency. 70 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:46,920 It was the beginning of the Internet. 71 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,480 And so we kind of learned the Internet through this process. 72 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,160 We reviewed hundreds of profiles. 73 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:53,920 We met several families. 74 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,920 We were talking to tens of people on the phone and we had a list of one hundred 75 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:03,760 and eleven questions that we sent to the couples that were in the running. 76 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:08,680 And we were basically looking for any reason that we shouldn't trust them. 77 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:10,920 And a lot of people kind of bowed out. 78 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:12,520 They didn't they were not for this. 79 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,360 You know a lot of them have probably been through a lot already. 80 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:22,760 But I had to do what I had to do to make sure I was doing the best for my child. 81 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:28,800 And so when we found his adoptive parents we did have a sense of trust. 82 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:33,520 We knew that they were committed to openness because they talked about it and 83 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,440 because they already had an adopted child with an open adoption. 84 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:40,920 And it has played out out well. 85 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:45,400 I feel like that sense of trust was like a good instinct about them. 86 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:51,440 In that there's never been a time that we were there was even the slightest 87 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:55,240 threat of not being able to see him if we wanted to. 88 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,160 And throughout his childhood I visited about every three months or so. 89 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,560 We didn't live close together ever. 90 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,480 So in the early days I would go for a weekend and stay with them because the 91 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,040 travel took so long and you did that you know stay the weekend to make it worth it. 92 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,520 But eventually I started coming only for day trips as he got older and that was 93 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,000 largely because I just couldn't handle the intensity of being there for very long. 94 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,320 So I would make a long travel stay for a short time and make a long travel back. 95 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:27,600 When he turned 16 he started visiting me in New York City and that started a 96 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:29,640 whole new era of our relationship. 97 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,600 And around that time we started talking about adoption. 98 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,920 It was never a secret, but he never seemed very interested in talking about it. 99 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,680 And I still try it all through his childhood. 100 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:47,000 I would try because I knew I was the adult and I should be the one initiating 101 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,120 conversations that might be tricky. 102 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,640 But he just wasn't he didn't show any that got no traction. 103 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:58,720 So it was only when he was about 16 that I began to hear what adoption had meant 104 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,360 for him and that was that was a real shift. 105 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:03,920 And now he's about to turn 24. 106 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,040 He's developing his own voice around his experience. 107 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:12,960 And it's been really revelatory to me to learn what was going on inside him under 108 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,120 my nose despite all my prior experiences. 109 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,440 He just didn't have words for it. 110 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,240 And so I'm 47 now. 111 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,240 I'm married. 112 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,240 I don't have other children. 113 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:27,240 I've tried. 114 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,640 I've had multiple miscarriages and failed pregnancies. 115 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:34,800 That is that's one of the impacts of adoption in my life. 116 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:39,040 And I mean, there's tons of tons of very good things. 117 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,040 I'm definitely presenting myself as a woman. 118 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:44,040 I'm a woman of my own. 119 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:52,160 I'm definitely presenting a very sad and difficult story. 120 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,160 There's tons of happy things in my life. 121 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,880 But my life has really been shaped by adoption loss. 122 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,560 And there's just no escaping it. 123 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:01,840 There's not a thing in my life. 124 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:06,320 I can't point to the way that adoption had a role there. 125 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:11,960 And so I think that's the short version of the story. 126 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,640 Wow. 127 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,680 Thank you for being so open and sharing. 128 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:19,680 And you're right. 129 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:21,000 Every experience is different. 130 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:26,680 And there are really difficult aspects of stories and there are happy aspects of life. 131 00:09:26,680 --> 00:09:34,880 And it's hard to paint the whole experience that you have had and that you're having in 132 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:36,000 a short interview. 133 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,320 But we appreciate it. 134 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:43,640 We appreciate your vulnerability and sharing some of the maybe harder or challenging feelings 135 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:45,200 that happen. 136 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:49,000 Well, we have a lot of questions for you. 137 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,120 And we would love to hear a little bit. 138 00:09:53,120 --> 00:10:03,960 So speaking about openness and your experience there, what would you share with an expectant 139 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:08,120 mother who's considering an open adoption? 140 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,160 I have so much to say about this. 141 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:18,480 The first thing is to really understand what's meant by the word open. 142 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:26,280 It sounded to me like it was standing in for words like truth and transparency, like reciprocity 143 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,440 and like symmetry. 144 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:30,640 And it can feel really blissful before the birth. 145 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:31,920 It can feel exactly like that. 146 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:36,740 Like you have a true partner in life with this adoptive couple. 147 00:10:36,740 --> 00:10:41,240 But the reality of the power dynamic is a reality. 148 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:42,240 It is a fact. 149 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,240 The law favors adoptive parents. 150 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,000 And future contact is not legally enforceable. 151 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:52,280 So once you surrender your rights, of course, I know that your listeners know this. 152 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,960 The adoptive parents can close the adoption. 153 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,480 Most of the birth mothers that I know, and I'm friends with a very large community of 154 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:04,480 birth mothers, don't have a level of openness that they understood they were agreeing to. 155 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:09,120 And many of them don't get to see their children at all. 156 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:15,920 And so that's like the most basic thing to be very aware of for someone considering open 157 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,640 adoption. 158 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:24,040 But because my adoption remained open, I don't want to risk being some kind of like story 159 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:30,800 of victory, and if you can stay open, then everything is great. 160 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,960 The main thing that I'm here for is to say that openness is not a remedy for the pains 161 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,880 of adoption on any side. 162 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:45,680 And there's a few ways that I can talk about that. 163 00:11:45,680 --> 00:11:50,020 One of the things is I never felt really free to share my real experience. 164 00:11:50,020 --> 00:11:55,360 So ahead of the birth, I'm telling her how scary this is to be considering this decision. 165 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,680 I'm telling the adoptive family, they're almost my primary support because they're the only 166 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:03,120 ones as invested in it as I am. 167 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:09,480 But that when the birth happens and they take the child, I knew that my grief and all the 168 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,200 processing I was doing were things that would threaten the adoptive family. 169 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,280 And if they weren't comfortable, if they didn't like spending time with me because I was so 170 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:23,680 sad and only talked about sad things, they had the freedom to shut me out. 171 00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:28,960 And I was counseled that I had a role to play in their entitlement. 172 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:34,600 Basically entitlement is their sense that they have the right to love that child, that 173 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,760 that child is really theirs. 174 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:42,000 And I didn't want to give my child to someone and then them not love him. 175 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:51,160 And so I was told, you let them name them, you have a relinquishment ceremony. 176 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:56,920 And implicitly, I understood I don't show my grief. 177 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:03,580 And that is really paralyzing for the relationship. 178 00:13:03,580 --> 00:13:05,440 It means it's not transparent. 179 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,360 It's not true. 180 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:15,720 I also thought, although there's only so much you can imagine, you can't imagine having 181 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:21,440 a baby in the first place, but imagining this crazy structure of open adoption is doubly 182 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:22,440 unimaginable. 183 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:28,760 I thought visiting would be something like resuming my motherhood. 184 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,280 That's kind of what I thought it was all about. 185 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:37,840 And after he was born, there was nothing as satisfying as breastfeeding him. 186 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,320 I kept him for a couple of weeks. 187 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:45,280 But the visits were not easy and they were not like a return to motherhood. 188 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:51,040 What is broken in letting the child go was broken for me. 189 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,320 And coming together was not like building on a bond. 190 00:13:54,320 --> 00:14:00,640 It was like this perpetual return to an injury that couldn't be fixed. 191 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:06,840 And to have been breastfeeding a month ago and then to be pretending to be a casual acquaintance 192 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:13,120 introduced this cognitive dissonance in my life that was really paralyzing. 193 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:20,160 My instincts shut down and I didn't want to cling to him too much because I didn't want 194 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:21,280 them. 195 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,960 I didn't want to threaten them with how much I wanted him. 196 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,680 I dissociated and I was a zombie. 197 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:33,240 I feel like I was a zombie for about 10 years. 198 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,920 And you wouldn't have thought it because I got two master's degrees. 199 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:40,520 I got jobs in San Francisco and New York and I was traveling. 200 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:42,880 I did tons of traveling overseas. 201 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,840 I'm a very high functioning zombie. 202 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:53,000 But some people don't get out of bed and some people maniacally chase accomplishments. 203 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:57,120 And I just was that side of it. 204 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,600 There's something about all the adults thinking this is okay. 205 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,680 What you're going through, like adoption is good. 206 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:03,680 This is okay. 207 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,960 This is normal and natural. 208 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:12,200 That was so confusing to my head because it felt so not okay. 209 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:18,320 And every single time I left his home, I did not want to be alive. 210 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:24,400 And that includes two weeks ago when I left his home. 211 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:30,320 I cannot tell you how difficult it is to sit with that dissonance. 212 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:36,040 And so I really part of what I would like to communicate to any family having an open 213 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:43,080 adoption that's like the mom is not visiting. 214 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,320 It's hard to visit. 215 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,560 It's hard to return to that power structure where you're not good enough. 216 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:57,520 And the proof of it is they have your child and it's right in front of you. 217 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:06,760 So yeah, give grace to the mothers who are having a hard time visiting. 218 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:15,160 And the biggest thing though is that it doesn't mitigate the trauma to the child. 219 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:19,040 The maternal separation still happens. 220 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,440 And my son is awesome and brilliant. 221 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:31,240 And he does have his own story that I don't want to say too much, but it's important because 222 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:32,520 of what it means for me. 223 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,960 I was waiting this whole time because I was like, okay, I can be collateral damage if 224 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,640 this worked well for him. 225 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:44,560 And he struggles to know where he belongs. 226 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:51,120 He describes it as having two centers of gravity that leave him lost in space. 227 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,360 He understands the story perfectly. 228 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,320 He's been told it his whole life. 229 00:16:55,320 --> 00:17:00,080 He loves everybody, respects everybody, but adoption goes against the most basic thing 230 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,320 in nature, the bond of a mother with her child. 231 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,600 And that is going to have consequences. 232 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:11,600 And I wouldn't have done this if I had known that. 233 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:21,000 I think that things that expectant mothers should consider is that they aren't going 234 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:27,440 to return to the person that they were with this addition of a child they get to visit. 235 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:31,680 It is an identity changing thing to have a child and certainly an identity changing thing 236 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,360 to lose a child. 237 00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:40,560 And so your plans are already moot. 238 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,880 All those plans for what you were going to do in college and all that, they're already 239 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:48,640 moot because you're a mother. 240 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:53,960 And so it's time for a complete recalibration. 241 00:17:53,960 --> 00:18:06,320 And so I guess I'll say one more thing, which is that not being able to be physical with 242 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:13,240 my son in the way that I would have been as a mother is one of my biggest losses because 243 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,720 I'm with my family. 244 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:16,720 I'm super cuddly. 245 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,320 I'm super kissy and huggy. 246 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,200 And I loved sleeping with him. 247 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,160 I would wake up before he was hungry. 248 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,240 I sensed when he was getting ready to be hungry. 249 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,920 And it was just the most satisfying thing to be so in sync. 250 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:37,160 And so just to be so cuddly. 251 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:45,920 And it's stifling that instinct really broke something in me, detached me from my natural 252 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:46,920 instincts. 253 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:53,840 I had to spend my whole life just kind of like holding myself still not, you know, I 254 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:55,380 can't go to him. 255 00:18:55,380 --> 00:18:56,920 He doesn't know me anymore. 256 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,840 I can't go to him and just grab him and smush him. 257 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:06,080 I would like give him a nice polite hug in front of his family. 258 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:11,160 And you know, I didn't want to express too much. 259 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:16,880 But that exercising, that physical restraint also broke something that has had an impact 260 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,880 on my entire life. 261 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:21,880 We were recently climbing a tower in Italy. 262 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,720 We met in Italy. 263 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,960 And we climbed this tower. 264 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,320 I have a super fear of heights. 265 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:35,920 And my fear of heights was greater than my reserve around my son, my physical reserve. 266 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:41,240 And I was grabbing him and holding on to him as we were climbing these stairs. 267 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:48,360 And that was like the best thing since like cuddling him when we were born. 268 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:53,760 And so there's just like, there's this thing that we're both constantly trying to restore. 269 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,280 We're trying to get it back. 270 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:57,280 And it can be kind of painful. 271 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,560 It's like, why did we lose that thing in the first place? 272 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:01,560 Yeah. 273 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,840 Yeah, that natural bond. 274 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,800 And we've seen that so clearly with our kids. 275 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:15,040 Last week, we were visiting our daughter's birth mom. 276 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:20,400 And we see her parents regularly, but she moved out of state a couple of years ago. 277 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,960 And so they Marco Polo and they FaceTime and all of those things. 278 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,520 But this was the first time they'd been together physically and probably a year and a half, 279 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,080 which is a long time in our adoption experience. 280 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:39,040 And we met at an amusement park and our daughter from like 100 yards away saw her and just 281 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:46,240 ran and they just embraced and they just stayed in this hug where her birth mom was holding 282 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,960 her off the ground for like three or four minutes. 283 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:56,440 And just to witness that, I feel like there was this, and I can't put words to either 284 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:03,240 of their experience, but just this deep connection that probably does foster some level of healing 285 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,640 for both of them. 286 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,360 That was just really sweet. 287 00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:13,400 So I love the way that you articulated that really clearly and painted that picture for 288 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,960 those of us who obviously haven't had that side of the experience. 289 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:18,960 It's really important for us to know. 290 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,480 So thank you so much. 291 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:28,040 That's hard, hard to share and hard to comprehend. 292 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,000 So thank you so much. 293 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,600 How do you feel like your feelings and you've already shared a little bit, but how do you 294 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,920 feel like your feelings have changed over time? 295 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:47,520 Well, so there have been two big shifts, I think, in my experience. 296 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:54,280 One was after I wrote my book and I began speaking about my experience. 297 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,740 So when I wrote my book, I was just trying to document a very particular kind of grief 298 00:21:58,740 --> 00:22:01,360 that I thought most of the world doesn't know about. 299 00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:07,000 I had deliberately not exposed myself to the adoption world because I sense there's probably 300 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:08,760 like a lot of politics around it. 301 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:17,880 And I just wanted to test my own experience as a completely isolated case. 302 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:22,840 But of course, I start the book tour and it was adoption communities that were inviting 303 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,240 me to speak in large part. 304 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:31,320 And so that was when I met people who helped me understand my experience in a cultural 305 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:38,200 context that it really, my experience is part of a history of adoption. 306 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:47,440 And it's part of a history of other people deciding who gets to be mothers. 307 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:58,160 I understood I was introduced at one talk as a victim of a coerced and unnecessary adoption. 308 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:03,000 And I was very surprised by that language because I was doing open adoption. 309 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,720 I was like, I chose. 310 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,920 And it has taken some time for me to understand the cultural context and the ways that coercion 311 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:18,760 has taken a different form to end for me to understand I could have done this. 312 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:26,920 I wasn't in the situation that I describe of it being just insurmountable circumstances. 313 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,800 I just bought into a cultural narrative that you're going to make this couple really happy. 314 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:39,720 You're going to get to have your degrees and your career and the child's a blank slate. 315 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,100 So of course, he's going to be fine. 316 00:23:42,100 --> 00:23:44,440 So that was one thing was being sat down. 317 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:50,040 I said, do you know Ricky Salinger, the historian, like wake up little Susie. 318 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,220 She sat me down and was just like, don't you get it? 319 00:23:53,220 --> 00:23:55,840 You are not just like one person who had this experience. 320 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,560 You are like, there's a line of women. 321 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,440 Women have been treated in this way. 322 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:07,960 People women have been capitalized upon in our society for generations and generations. 323 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,680 And so you're just like the latest version. 324 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:15,640 And that was kind of, it took me a while to really process that. 325 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,480 And I now do understand. 326 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,520 And now I'm very active and I want people to understand that. 327 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:27,640 You've got to see the structures that are at play in this decision. 328 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:35,280 So that was one major shift in opening my eyes to the industry of adoption. 329 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:43,440 And then another thing was my son beginning to speak about it. 330 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:58,840 And to know, I don't know exactly how to talk about what he, about his experience, but it's 331 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,760 just that I understand he's not a blank slate and this is not what he would have chosen. 332 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,620 And he's spending a lot of his time. 333 00:25:06,620 --> 00:25:10,920 He was saying the other night that bifurcating a family doesn't simply double the love. 334 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,760 You don't bifurcate a family to double the love. 335 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:18,040 Because you're always hearing like you have more people to love you. 336 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,400 It's just like, I want fewer people. 337 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,960 I want just like the people I'm supposed to be with. 338 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:33,680 So I just wouldn't have, a kid is going to have struggles. 339 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,660 A young adult is going to have struggles. 340 00:25:35,660 --> 00:25:37,560 I just wouldn't have given this one. 341 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,040 I would have given him. 342 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:50,640 So I also would say that another thing about open adoption, one of the hesitations around 343 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:55,720 open adoption is it could be confusing for the child. 344 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,600 And I was always looking for that confusion and never finding it and thinking if he knows 345 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:08,440 I'm his birth mother and he's told the story that it would be, that would make everything 346 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:09,440 okay. 347 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:14,480 And it would, like for him, it was normal to be adopted when he was growing up. 348 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,960 But the confusion is at a really deeper level. 349 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:25,880 And that I just couldn't have seen before. 350 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:31,080 He told me recently that if I had raised him, he would know how to dance. 351 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:32,440 And I was like, no, you wouldn't. 352 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,560 I do not, I'm not like some kind of, I don't dance. 353 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,360 And he said, but that's why, because he would have grown up knowing who he is, like with 354 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:45,800 just an inherent sense of who he is, such that he would have pushed hard against me 355 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,480 and rebelled and tested the waters outside of our family. 356 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:54,760 But he's ended up spending so much of his time just trying to understand who he is instead 357 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,880 of doing like what all the other kids are doing. 358 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:06,160 Like, you know, so having such a deep anchor in their family that they can go off and they 359 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,280 know what it means to rebel. 360 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:15,880 And I guess another thing that just naturally happens, you get older and then you are going 361 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:21,380 back, you know, I was about 10 years apart from the adoptive family. 362 00:27:21,380 --> 00:27:26,940 And as you get older, that difference becomes smaller and smaller. 363 00:27:26,940 --> 00:27:31,520 And it became very strange to, for them to still have my son. 364 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,360 It's like, I have a job. 365 00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:34,760 I'm trying to have kids. 366 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,800 I have financial security. 367 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,760 I'm married. 368 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:46,280 Why is this still the structure where this is a structure that is predicated on I'm not, 369 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:51,380 I don't have what it takes, but now I do have what it takes. 370 00:27:51,380 --> 00:27:53,240 And I still want him. 371 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,560 And so that, you know, the distance that I talked about that, it got bigger and bigger 372 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,280 and bigger. 373 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:06,880 And I delayed parts of my own development. 374 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,080 I didn't get married until I was 41. 375 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:14,380 And I know that part of it was, I was supposed to do something that made it all make sense 376 00:28:14,380 --> 00:28:16,160 to have given him up. 377 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:21,560 And I still haven't found that thing yet. 378 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:28,560 And also I wanted, since this whole structure was contingent on me not being mature enough 379 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:36,360 or whatever, I stayed a little bit unstable so that it would make sense to me. 380 00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:38,240 And finally, I just couldn't do it anymore. 381 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:46,200 I had to, you know, I had to grow up. 382 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:51,680 And it's very strange to still be in this particular power structure. 383 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:52,680 Yeah. 384 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,520 I love the way that you phrased a lot of this. 385 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:03,800 And I think, again, you've shared this in a way that helps me understand that, well, 386 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,040 there's two major thoughts in my mind. 387 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:12,800 One is that you feel like in order for this to truly be the case for adoption to be the 388 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:17,920 right situation, that I can't be the ideal parent, right? 389 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:25,520 So I might be sabotaging some of my own progress and growth, maybe even subconsciously, because 390 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:30,000 for this to all make sense, I can't progress. 391 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,340 I can't be the person. 392 00:29:32,340 --> 00:29:36,960 If I had been this person, then I would have felt more, I don't know, justified or adequately 393 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:38,680 prepared to be a parent. 394 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,960 And so I'm stopping myself from getting there. 395 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,040 I don't know if I've ever thought of it in that light. 396 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,000 And I think that you shared that helps me see that. 397 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,400 I can't remember what the other one was now. 398 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,360 Maybe you'll remember it. 399 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,400 It'll probably come back later, but that's okay. 400 00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:04,200 So thinking about back when you were expecting and support systems that were there, particularly 401 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:12,680 before you placed in the hospital early on, what do you wish that people that might be 402 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,640 in that situation soon or right now would know? 403 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,040 What do you wish you would have known? 404 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,040 Yeah. 405 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:26,800 Well, I said before, I didn't think I initially experienced coercion, but the industry has 406 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,800 gotten really smart. 407 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:35,120 It has spent millions of marketing dollars to assist in that effort. 408 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:41,440 And so the pressures that it puts on women are invisible and take the form of support. 409 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:48,840 And they use the well-meaningness of the adoptive families to their advantage. 410 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:54,080 They're creating a cultural narrative around adoption that conceals the industry that's 411 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:55,080 behind it. 412 00:30:55,080 --> 00:31:00,720 And so I would love for people to know a few of the ways that coercion happens that I didn't 413 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,800 see, but that I experienced. 414 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:10,560 One of them is positive adoption language, the idea that placing a child for adoption, 415 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:18,000 making an adoption plan, things that sanitize what is still systematic family separation. 416 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,240 It makes it sound like the adults of the world have created something ethical and good, that 417 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:29,120 they've finally perfected this new thing, but it sugar coats the realities that if we 418 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:34,520 saw them for what they are, we might deal with them differently. 419 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,400 The agency was my main source of counseling. 420 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,760 I didn't have money for real therapy and their counseling was of course biased. 421 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:46,360 I was told that eventually the pain would subside. 422 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:47,520 That is not true. 423 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:54,640 I can tell you from so many birth mothers I know in their seventies, the pain does not 424 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,280 subside. 425 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:57,800 The pain changes form. 426 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,320 You learn to function around it. 427 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,600 It does not, you do not forget. 428 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,200 I was not informed of the impacts to my son. 429 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,360 I said that before. 430 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:12,000 And the workbook I used asked me all kinds of questions about money, whether I had enough 431 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,000 of it. 432 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,840 And of course I didn't. 433 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:23,800 And it implicitly created this sense of inadequacy and that money was the real test of whether 434 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,360 you should be a parent. 435 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,680 And it was masquerading as like we're helping you make a plan. 436 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,480 So we need to know you have enough money. 437 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,880 So I just remember I couldn't even fill out the sheet. 438 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:36,880 I was just like, no, no, no. 439 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:37,880 I'm going to do adoption. 440 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:43,320 I'm not going to even fill out the budget sheet because I can't do that. 441 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,000 So they helped me create an adoption plan. 442 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,280 The agency did. 443 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,480 And the idea was if I have a plan, then if I experience any doubts, I'll be able to look 444 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,000 to my plan for guidance. 445 00:32:54,000 --> 00:33:01,520 They're like, what that does is it keeps you from making other plans. 446 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,960 I didn't look for support because I was making a plan for adoption. 447 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,200 Whenever I talked to anybody about my pregnancy, I would say, but I have an adoption plan. 448 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:15,520 And I would teach them this new thing they hadn't known about. 449 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:21,960 And what that did was, so I had some professors who were actually planning to offer me a place 450 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:27,920 to live in their home because they thought I probably wasn't going to be able to do it. 451 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,960 And they were planning on offering this to me, but they didn't want to disrupt my plans. 452 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:37,280 So they weren't going to offer it to me unless I didn't, unless the adoption fell through. 453 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,080 They told me that after I had given them up, and I was just like, if I had known that, 454 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,960 that would have changed everything. 455 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,540 So creating the plan really silenced all the support that could have come out of the woodwork 456 00:33:48,540 --> 00:33:51,400 for me. 457 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,960 And the second thing is, at the time of the birth, when I fully changed my mind, though 458 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,640 I couldn't admit it to myself, but it was perfectly clear what I should do, that I needed 459 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:05,400 to be with my son, the plan severs the mother from her feelings. 460 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:11,360 And feelings can be really instructive. 461 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,520 My feelings told me don't let the child go, and that was right. 462 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,600 But my plan was supposed to be wiser than my instincts. 463 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:24,000 And like, whoever thinks that a mother's instincts are not right for her child. 464 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:30,000 So I would say the plan is totally tentative. 465 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:35,000 It's like one way I would make another plan for parenting. 466 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:40,600 I mean, they tried to get me to do that, but like I said, it was so effective. 467 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,440 The way that they convinced me I didn't have enough money to even think about it. 468 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:46,840 The other thing is pre-birth matching. 469 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,320 I used to be a total salesman for pre-birth matching because I did such a good job of 470 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:51,320 it. 471 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:56,000 I did an A plus job of pre-birth matching. 472 00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:04,080 But it exposes birth mothers to a more privileged family, to the earnest and worthy desires 473 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:05,760 of that family. 474 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,600 And it undermines what she has to give to the child and her own worthiness to be with 475 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:11,600 that child. 476 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,200 And it makes her feel indebted and obligated to the family. 477 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,640 And that happens even in my, like I wasn't being funded. 478 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,160 Sometimes there's money happening. 479 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,720 That wasn't happening for me, but I still felt very obligated to them because of their 480 00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:30,480 expectations. 481 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,320 And they tell you about birth mothers who disappoint the family and you just want to 482 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,640 be like one of those birth mothers who's strong enough not to disappoint them. 483 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:45,640 And so it's a really effective form of coercion where it's using everybody's good intentions 484 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:50,360 to make this adoption happen against what might be best. 485 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:56,920 And I used to think that finding this family was like one of my biggest accomplishments. 486 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:01,120 And I now consider it my biggest regret because I would not have done adoption if I had not 487 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:02,120 found them. 488 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,480 There was nobody else in second place. 489 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:11,200 And another thing is the agency gives you a false sense of security. 490 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:17,120 So I had the idea that the sooner my son could go to his family, the better he would adjust. 491 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,740 That's the blank slate idea of what an infant is. 492 00:36:20,740 --> 00:36:21,740 It's not true. 493 00:36:21,740 --> 00:36:24,200 We know that it's not true with puppies. 494 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:30,800 We know that newborns need time with their mother. 495 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,760 And when my son was born, I couldn't sign the papers. 496 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,400 I couldn't when I planned to, which was 72 hours after. 497 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:39,600 I kept him for two weeks. 498 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:40,600 I breastfed. 499 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:41,600 I got him through the colostrum. 500 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:48,120 I thought if I can give him the immune support, at least that will be some kind of foundation. 501 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:55,120 But a reality is that a newborn gets the highest price for an agency. 502 00:36:55,120 --> 00:37:01,920 And the idea that they create is false, that a newborn is going to adjust better. 503 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,040 The sooner he goes to the new family, that's not true. 504 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,040 What's true is that time with a mother is an anchor in the world. 505 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,560 And it is a critically important time. 506 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,120 And if you want that time, you have all the time in the world. 507 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:16,120 You can wait a year. 508 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,800 And you'll still find an adoptive family if you really need to go that route. 509 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:21,880 But I was like, I got to do it. 510 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:22,880 I got to do it. 511 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,160 I got to make a decision. 512 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:31,520 I'm like, what am I doing to this child to not make a decision? 513 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:36,840 I was informed of my revocation period, but I was not empowered around it. 514 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,520 It was kind of presented to me as a formality. 515 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,160 And by that time, I cared too much about the family's feelings to go back on my decision 516 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:45,160 anyway. 517 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,400 I think that women need to know their revocation period, and they need to know it's theirs 518 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:49,760 to use. 519 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:55,020 It is like one of the very few powers that we have. 520 00:37:55,020 --> 00:37:59,400 And it's there to be used. 521 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:00,740 I don't have my paperwork. 522 00:38:00,740 --> 00:38:02,520 A lot of women don't get their paperwork. 523 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,640 In any other legal transaction, you get your paperwork. 524 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,160 So in general, we don't have legal support, and we're not informed of our rights. 525 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,200 And that's another form of coercion. 526 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:18,600 I know women who signed away their rights to a revocation period not knowing that that's 527 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,320 what they were doing. 528 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:28,360 And of course, there's a lot more blatant forms of coercion in practice today. 529 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,920 Another thing, it's not quite coercive, but it's untransparent. 530 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:36,480 And I think it's contradictory to the idea that's being sold of open adoption is that 531 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,320 I have no idea how much money was exchanged for my son. 532 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:43,760 But I know that typically 30 to 50,000, even more. 533 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,920 And no services that I received warrant that expense. 534 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:55,520 And if I had known that someone was making $30,000, what I wouldn't have done for $30,000. 535 00:38:55,520 --> 00:39:00,080 When I signed the paper, it would have shifted my thinking about this whole transaction. 536 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,280 I knew that there was money somewhere, but money was a very ugly thing to think about 537 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,440 when I was pregnant. 538 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:12,280 I think that letting women know the kind of profit they are creating for an agency is 539 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,120 critical information for them to have. 540 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,160 I think that they should know when that transaction is taking place. 541 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:25,280 I just think if it's not a for profit, if it's not all about the money, then that's 542 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:26,280 why. 543 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:27,280 Yeah. 544 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:28,280 Yeah. 545 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,920 And I was also coerced by the lack of other alternatives. 546 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:34,640 I had no family support. 547 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:40,040 Our social infrastructure is not built for single mothers or lower income mothers. 548 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,400 And my family didn't offer support because they were buying into the same thing I was. 549 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,120 They thought it would be best for my son. 550 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,560 I had my whole life ahead of me. 551 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,960 And openness just changed everything, made it all good. 552 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,880 And on my deathbed, my father apologized. 553 00:39:54,880 --> 00:40:01,680 And the system is creating a situation where a father has to make a deathbed apology. 554 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,480 And that killed me to know how much it hurt him to know that he hadn't been there for 555 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:12,560 me in the way that he would have liked to have been if he had known. 556 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:19,340 And I just want to say even ongoing contact with the adoptive family is coercive because 557 00:40:19,340 --> 00:40:23,760 you don't want to disrupt the family or get yourself cut out of the picture by sharing 558 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:25,840 your real experience. 559 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,560 And you don't want to undermine your child's whole existence. 560 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,560 So you don't, so you have to believe in it. 561 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,240 It has to be good because your life is built on it. 562 00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:38,200 Everybody's life is built on it. 563 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:46,080 So I have little by little let his adoptive family know, like, I have thoughts about this 564 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:47,680 thing. 565 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:54,760 You know, it's too late now for the adoption to be closed. 566 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:55,760 So I'm safe now. 567 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,880 I'm in the safe territory to actually be able to speak about it. 568 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,960 And I don't, my intention is not to hurt them, of course. 569 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:07,040 I'm just saying I have the utmost respect for them. 570 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:14,760 And I think that we are all sold a very poor system that is not about creating, that is 571 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,640 not about giving homes to children. 572 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:25,560 It is about, it is about selling children for the profit of the agency. 573 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,800 And it is using all of us against each other. 574 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:34,320 And so I'm, let's build something better. 575 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:40,800 That's what I have to say. 576 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,160 I want to say one more thing about support systems. 577 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:44,160 Is that okay? 578 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:45,160 Yeah, totally. 579 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,600 I have so much to say. 580 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,000 That's okay. 581 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,720 So there had been a single mother who volunteered to be the doula for me. 582 00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:59,920 And she told me that if I'm going to lose my son, I should have a fantastic birth experience. 583 00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:03,760 And she taught me all about pregnancy. 584 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,400 She taught me how to have a natural childbirth. 585 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:12,480 She was in there fighting the doctors from putting any pricks in me. 586 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,280 And I got to have a natural childbirth and breastfeed. 587 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,400 And it was so amazing. 588 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:26,680 And she also has recently expressed her regret that she thought adoption was the best solution. 589 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,320 But that was a fantastic support. 590 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,280 And I do think women should try to have a great birth experience, not shut down your 591 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,640 emotions for the birth. 592 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:41,480 And I just have to say that my sister has also been an incredible support for me. 593 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,000 Did offer to help me raise him, but I just thought we're both poor. 594 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,000 What are we going to do? 595 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:47,920 Raise the child together. 596 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:48,920 Yeah. 597 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:49,920 Wow. 598 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,240 Thank you so much. 599 00:42:52,240 --> 00:42:54,320 So many great thoughts. 600 00:42:54,320 --> 00:43:01,480 And I could get on a lot of soap boxes based on a lot of things that you said. 601 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:13,080 We really struggle with agencies that profit off of this experience a lot. 602 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:21,960 And we agree with you that there needs to be a different, better system that I think 603 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,040 we can all play a part in making. 604 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:25,320 But thank you so much. 605 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:31,360 I think, again, you've articulated that in a really, really profound way for us to think 606 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,720 perhaps differently than we have in the past. 607 00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:41,200 Thinking about the adoptee or the birth parent who's already received those titles, right? 608 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,120 So the adoption already happened. 609 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:57,480 What support systems or what encouragement or advice do you have for the birth parent 610 00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,880 or the adoptee for seeking additional help? 611 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:09,240 I think the first thing is that we can listen to them and acknowledge that the trauma of 612 00:44:09,240 --> 00:44:11,520 adoption is real. 613 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:20,560 I think that it can be really hard for my son to hear, well, you could have felt that 614 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:26,880 even in plenty of natural families or whatever have that experience. 615 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,120 It's just, yes, everybody's life is hard. 616 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:31,120 Everyone has issues. 617 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,600 But if we want to create ethical systems, it's important to acknowledge that adoption 618 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:42,480 is a very particular kind of trauma and not undermine the experience of adoptees. 619 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:50,840 Of course, being in community with people has been really supportive for me. 620 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:57,040 I lead a support group and I see how it is so critical for some people. 621 00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:04,720 It's an experience that only others in this world can very quickly understand. 622 00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:08,880 But I also think that denial is a really important stage. 623 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:14,280 For me, I wanted nothing to do with people around adoption for a very long time because 624 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,840 they're such sad people. 625 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:22,880 So you go through the stages that you need to go through. 626 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,600 Also, I know that a lot of stuff is happening primarily. 627 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:33,040 And so I've gone through an anger period. 628 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:43,600 And it's good to have therapy and get it out because I know that the anger is misdirected. 629 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,080 Therapy is good. 630 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,960 Therapy is good. 631 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,640 I think the ones that I've heard that are especially good for people with adoption experience 632 00:45:54,640 --> 00:46:02,200 where the trauma is so deep, like the EMDR, somatic therapies, IFS, I've done some of 633 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:09,480 those, not all of those, and definitely hypnosis, things that get you very quick to your deep 634 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,080 subconscious where you need to be treated. 635 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:19,280 So I wish I had better advice for this. 636 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:20,440 It's pain. 637 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:26,840 And I guess maybe the thing that I would say is we also, on a cultural level, we are victims 638 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:28,200 of this system. 639 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,000 And also, we are not victims. 640 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:40,760 We all have the privilege and strength and resilience to make beautiful lives. 641 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:45,000 That's not to negate the many injustices. 642 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:46,320 But there's also lots of joy. 643 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,880 I have a really hard time communicating when I'm talking about adoption that I'm actually 644 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:56,240 really funny and laughy. 645 00:46:56,240 --> 00:47:00,800 You have a whole other, these things work in parallel. 646 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:07,640 And sometimes the capacity for grief is equal to the capacity for love. 647 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:13,720 And so I think they're very much kindred. 648 00:47:13,720 --> 00:47:15,080 Yeah. 649 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:16,880 Wow. 650 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:25,120 You've shared a lot of thoughts about some of the challenges in adoption in the community. 651 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:33,680 What are some of your thoughts on actions that, as a community, we can take to improve? 652 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:42,360 There's one thing, if you are thinking about adoption, if you're thinking about open adoption, 653 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,240 don't promise something that you're not going to deliver. 654 00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:46,400 Absolutely. 655 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,360 That is one of the most important things. 656 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:54,640 And don't let a mother, there are ways that you mislead a mother. 657 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,760 I've just heard so many stories from birth mothers of what they thought. 658 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:04,040 And what, and you know, that the adoptive family communicated something in such layered 659 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:09,880 language that actually they were staying true to their word, but they had made it a very, 660 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:15,400 not very much of a promise, but the mother understood, the mother trusted them and understood 661 00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:17,440 like she's going to have this much contact. 662 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:24,520 So one of the best things right now immediately is don't go about this. 663 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:30,960 If you can't actually commit, wait for a birth mother, you can commit to, or wait for a mother 664 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:31,960 you can commit to. 665 00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:36,240 We always say under promise and over deliver. 666 00:48:36,240 --> 00:48:42,600 And don't ever say, as badly as somebody might want a child, don't ever say anything that 667 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,720 you can't be okay with in the future. 668 00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:50,320 Because I think that really, it is clearly coercive language. 669 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:55,520 Like you were talking about that if we're saying anything untrue or something that we're 670 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,960 not comfortable with, just so that someone makes a decision to place with us, that's 671 00:48:59,960 --> 00:49:02,000 absolutely unethical. 672 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:03,480 Yeah. 673 00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:08,760 And I think we can also get more creative. 674 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:14,400 I think we can think about adopting mothers and children. 675 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:24,000 I think we can just think about way more radical forms of fixing the social ills that is part 676 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,800 of the infrastructure of our world. 677 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:35,880 And that is like, so I have secondary infertility, I had miscarriages and I don't get to have 678 00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:37,800 a child. 679 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,400 And there's no option for me. 680 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:45,440 Because I will not take a child from someone else and try to convince myself that it is 681 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,320 mine. 682 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:55,040 I would like to support, I mean, my passion happens to be single older women who are aging 683 00:49:55,040 --> 00:50:01,600 alone, which is like many of these birth mothers are. 684 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:08,280 But just find vulnerable people to take care of and really take care of them. 685 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:13,680 Removing, separating a mother from her child is taking care of nobody. 686 00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,920 And so just get creative. 687 00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:21,040 So I think some of the biggest challenges we face is our absolute determination to see 688 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:27,440 adoption as like necessary and natural and inevitable. 689 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,680 And like, well, you can't, you aren't saying get rid of adoption completely, right? 690 00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:32,680 There has to be adoption. 691 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:33,680 No, there doesn't. 692 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,360 There doesn't have to be adoption. 693 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:44,240 And we need to look at this thing hard and look at our own desire and understand that 694 00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:47,440 our own desire as intense as it may be. 695 00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:52,960 And I used to wake up gasping like my story cannot be that I gave up my only child. 696 00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:54,800 I have to have a child. 697 00:50:54,800 --> 00:51:02,760 Like I know I need the healing of a baby, of someone I get to raise. 698 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,920 And my dad said also on his deathbed, I want you to have a child that you get to raise. 699 00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:10,080 And I was like, please don't say that. 700 00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,320 And I don't get to have it. 701 00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:13,860 And that's okay. 702 00:51:13,860 --> 00:51:19,880 And just like I can adjust and have happiness, even though I gave up my child, I can also 703 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:24,400 adjust and have happiness even though I don't get to have a child, even though that feels 704 00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,560 like it would be the perfect ending to this story. 705 00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,920 I get to love other people in the world. 706 00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:43,320 And so that's the kind of, that's what we need to be doing for each other. 707 00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,800 I also want to say something that may not be directly related to this question, but 708 00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:55,240 you've had some discussions in various different podcasts about boundaries and healthy boundaries 709 00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:56,240 and stuff. 710 00:51:56,240 --> 00:52:01,040 And I just want to say that I think that a lot of times boundaries are an excuse for 711 00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,960 not wanting to have a difficult conversation. 712 00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:11,840 And they're used, it's sort of like, once you say, no, I have a boundary, like I need 713 00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:16,720 to create this boundary for my, you know, then it's like an untouchable. 714 00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:24,480 And let's also do harder work in relationships and not use, not let boundary setting be our 715 00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:30,240 first recourse when something gets hard, because it's going to get hard. 716 00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:32,960 Yeah, it's going to be challenging. 717 00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:39,040 The episode that we did, I think it actually was released today. 718 00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,560 She her name is Kyra. 719 00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:48,240 She's also a birth mother and one of the things she talked about was how boundaries are these 720 00:52:48,240 --> 00:52:51,480 things that don't are never solidified and solid. 721 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:55,360 And if we feel like that that's the case, then we need to change it, right? 722 00:52:55,360 --> 00:53:00,840 That should be an ever evolving conversation that we should, we should create space where 723 00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,480 we can have difficult conversations. 724 00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,360 We have to have crucial conversations with people. 725 00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:14,400 And sometimes we're going to say things or hear things that might harm our ego or might 726 00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,480 be hard for us to hear, but we need to hear them. 727 00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:24,500 And I think for everyone in the adopted adoption constellation, especially the adoptive parents 728 00:53:24,500 --> 00:53:29,200 need to be okay with hearing things that are going to challenge who they are and their 729 00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,720 beliefs and how they feel about things. 730 00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:36,640 And that just needs to happen. 731 00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:42,720 Totally on board that we have to make sure that we are as transparent as we can be with 732 00:53:42,720 --> 00:53:51,420 feelings and don't hold boundaries over people or create disconnection because you're unhappy 733 00:53:51,420 --> 00:53:54,760 with how someone feels. 734 00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:55,760 Thank you. 735 00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:57,080 Thank you for sharing that. 736 00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:03,960 You actually we connected months ago after we had released an episode on kind of some 737 00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:09,040 third party reproductive doing embryo adoption specifically. 738 00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:13,760 I know that you have some interest and knowledge there and we would love for you to share some 739 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:14,760 of your thoughts. 740 00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:21,100 And as this is something newer to the adoption community, we'd love to learn anything that 741 00:54:21,100 --> 00:54:23,360 you could share there. 742 00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:29,320 Well I had initially reached out to you because I heard that episode on embryo donation and 743 00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:34,480 this is something that the adoption world and the third party reproduction world are 744 00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:41,240 coming together, which I have lots of links I can give you for this. 745 00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:48,880 But basically it's this next frontier of family building and there are now enough adults who 746 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:53,640 are donor conceived that we're learning that they experience many of the same things as 747 00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:54,640 adoptees. 748 00:54:54,640 --> 00:55:01,800 The genetic discontinuity is still problematic and it is absolutely vital that we educate 749 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:09,400 ourselves about the impacts of our decisions on the future humans that we are creating. 750 00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:15,040 They have feelings about it and those feelings matter. 751 00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:24,400 And I have people in my life who are going about, they are in the baby mania, they are 752 00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:33,240 going to do whatever they have to do to get a baby because they cannot stop and think 753 00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:37,480 and you know time is ticking. 754 00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:44,240 But people want to know their genetic history and it's not just about medical information, 755 00:55:44,240 --> 00:55:46,480 this is about identity. 756 00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:54,120 And so some things to know are you've got to tell them right away that they are donor 757 00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:55,120 conceived. 758 00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:59,360 It is not something to tell them when they're three or five or 12, it is something to tell 759 00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,720 them when they're zero if you do go about that way. 760 00:56:02,720 --> 00:56:09,120 But I just I reached out to you because I think as you're exploring the complexity, as 761 00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:13,280 you're getting deeper and deeper into the complexities of open adoption, people might 762 00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:20,200 be running to embryo donation or third party reproduction as the simpler route. 763 00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:26,120 And yes, you create a stronger boundary from the birth family but that birth family still 764 00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:31,160 exists and is still going to have impacts. 765 00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:34,700 And so I think I'm totally not an expert and I told you this before, I'm totally not an 766 00:56:34,700 --> 00:56:38,920 expert on this but I have some resources that I can point to and I just really want to encourage 767 00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:39,920 everyone. 768 00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:47,320 We've got to listen to the people that we're creating, adoptees and donor conceived people 769 00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:54,920 and hear what they have to teach us about the ethicalness or not of our practices. 770 00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:56,040 Yeah. 771 00:56:56,040 --> 00:57:00,960 So if you are conceived an embryo adoption, reach out to us, we want to hear your voice. 772 00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:05,200 And if you know somebody, reach out to us. 773 00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:13,240 We are all about amplifying the adoptee's voice because I mean, it really it's all about 774 00:57:13,240 --> 00:57:22,120 them and they were the only ones that really didn't have any decision at all in this experience 775 00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,480 that is now their life. 776 00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:29,600 And we want to do everything that we can to make sure that it's the best experience. 777 00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:36,120 We can create the best experience and understand from adoptees as much as we can. 778 00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:37,360 So I love that. 779 00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:41,960 I love that advice and we would love to share some of those resources in the show notes 780 00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,080 here. 781 00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:45,080 Thank you so much. 782 00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:49,280 Is there anything else that you'd like to share as we wrap up? 783 00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:50,800 There's like there's too much. 784 00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:51,800 I know. 785 00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:53,840 No, there's nothing. 786 00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,520 There's I think that I think I think I covered a lot. 787 00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:02,720 We honestly I've really loved this conversation. 788 00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:07,600 And like I mentioned in the very beginning, it's really important for us to understand 789 00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:10,560 this experience from so many different perspectives. 790 00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:15,560 And I love the light that you've shed on the birth mother experience. 791 00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:20,880 And it helps us all think really deeply about why we're doing what we're doing and how we're 792 00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,600 doing what we're doing. 793 00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:24,600 Thank you. 794 00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,080 Sincerely, thank you for being with us. 795 00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:27,080 I enjoyed it. 796 00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:33,880 Thank you very much for having me. 797 00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:40,960 Listening to this episode with Amy, it was really impactful and meaningful for me. 798 00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:44,000 I'm so grateful for her for taking the time to share with us. 799 00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:46,240 And I'm so grateful that she reached out to us. 800 00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:48,640 She Yeah, she reached out after we had that episode 801 00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,320 on embryo adoption and shared some resources. 802 00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:56,200 We're going to have more resources from her that she's pointed us toward in the show notes 803 00:58:56,200 --> 00:59:01,720 as well as information for her memoir that she wrote called God and Jetfire Confessions 804 00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:06,280 of a Birth Mother and some other sources and resources she shared. 805 00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:14,400 But so thankful for Amy for the hard conversations that she was willing to have and for the thought 806 00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,280 provoking dialogue that it created. 807 00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:18,760 Yeah, for sure. 808 00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,160 I think that I mean, I walk away from this conversation. 809 00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:25,720 We recorded this quite a while ago, but I walk away from hearing this again. 810 00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:31,200 This conversation again with this deep desire to make sure that we're amplifying amplifying 811 00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:38,120 different voices in the adoption constellations so that as a community, we're well educated. 812 00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:43,440 We know what's what individuals feel, what they potentially can experience, both the 813 00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:46,920 heartache and the joys that come. 814 00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:55,120 And this definitely deepens my compassion and empathy toward birth mothers and expect 815 00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:59,880 to expect them others that are considering adoption for their child. 816 00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:07,240 So I feel just this extra amount of love toward that that group of people who are going through 817 01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:12,620 and have made and gone through these really challenging experiences. 818 01:00:12,620 --> 01:00:17,000 For me, as I listened to this, I kept thinking about all of these. 819 01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:21,440 I mean, there's many issues that we don't even understand our issues, right? 820 01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:26,080 And I appreciated that in the conversation she talked about coming to understand things 821 01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:28,720 more completely over time. 822 01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:34,680 But we know that there is so much coercion and there's unethical practices and adoption 823 01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:35,680 agencies. 824 01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:41,480 We've talked about the limited experiences we've had where we've seen adoption agencies 825 01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:44,760 practicing really, really poorly. 826 01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:46,280 Right. 827 01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:52,160 And where it's not about what's best for this child, what's best for this mother, how can 828 01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:54,320 we do things ethically. 829 01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:55,320 Right. 830 01:00:55,320 --> 01:01:05,160 And so my big takeaway is how can we bring about the changes that need to happen in the 831 01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:06,480 adoption community? 832 01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:07,480 Right. 833 01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:09,360 And Amy's right. 834 01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:15,180 Like in the perfect world, we would not have adoption. 835 01:01:15,180 --> 01:01:19,480 And until we get to that perfect world, what can we do better? 836 01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:20,480 Yeah. 837 01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:27,040 And I mean, there are so many situations and intricacies in every different situation that 838 01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:32,880 is for me personally, it's hard to say that we can be at that point right now, obviously. 839 01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:36,320 But how can we, how can we approve what we have right now? 840 01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:39,240 How can we come to something even better than we have right now? 841 01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:43,200 I think there's some of the questions that we as a community need to ask ourselves. 842 01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:44,200 Yeah, absolutely. 843 01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:50,000 And I really appreciate the thoughtful way that she brought that into my mind. 844 01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:51,000 Yeah. 845 01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:52,000 Yeah. 846 01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:58,440 This was a really heavy but helpful episode for me and I expect it is for you guys too. 847 01:01:58,440 --> 01:01:59,640 So thanks for listening. 848 01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:00,640 Thanks for being here. 849 01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:05,600 And also just a huge thanks again to Amy for reaching out to us, for having this conversation, 850 01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:07,960 for sharing her thoughts and experience. 851 01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:13,360 We really value you and are so grateful that we got to meet with you. 852 01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:17,640 And if you would like to talk with us and share your experiences as an adoptee, as a 853 01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:23,920 first parent, please feel free to reach out to us at openadoptionproject.gmail.com. 854 01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:30,200 Also we have a research opportunity that we'll be sharing about soon for first parents. 855 01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:35,360 And we have another episode coming up in a couple of weeks that is an interview with 856 01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:37,680 an adoptee named Steven Rowley. 857 01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:40,400 And he is an author and a psychologist. 858 01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:45,240 And we're really grateful for the opportunity to share some of his experiences and thoughts 859 01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:46,240 as well. 860 01:02:46,240 --> 01:03:12,440 We'll be back in a couple of weeks and until then, thank you so much for listening.