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Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 105. We are the Nelsons. I'm Shaun.

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And I'm Lanette. And today we are really excited to be sharing an interview. Today we're talking

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with Kiara Dark and she is a birth mom. Yeah I loved listening to this conversation and we

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know that you'll enjoy what she has to share. For me there's a lot of moments from this conversation

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that I really liked and we hope that you like as well. But there's this turning moment where she

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realizes how adoption is a blessing. Like multifaceted. Yeah that it works not just about the experience

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she had but she experiences it from the other side and she says it's a moment of healing and

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I love that. We're so grateful to Kiara for her sharing her experience as a birth mother and

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sharing with all of us things that we can learn as we navigate the adoption world. Yeah so let's

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jump into that interview with Kiara and then we'll be back at the end and chat a little more.

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We are here on the podcast with Kiara Dark and we are so excited to have her with us.

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Kiara welcome. Thank you. Yeah my name is Kiara Dark. I am a local resident of Utah and a realtor and

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just like to stay as busy as I can. I do a lot of volunteering and community work and that's

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kind of what I love to do. That's awesome. All right so we are really excited to hear about your

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connections with adoption and your experiences. Do you want to go ahead and share whatever you'd

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like to about your adoption story? Sure. What I've learned in my life through this adoption story is

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that it's not a very typical one. Not that there is a typical one. I think everybody's story is

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super unique but yeah so I guess I'll start at 17. I was 17 years old. My brother was serving a

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mission in back east in the United States and there was a missionary there and his family wasn't

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supportive so he wasn't receiving letters and things like this and so my brother asked me if I'd

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be willing to just be supportive and send some letters. So I did. I started writing this

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missionary just as you know an act of kindness I guess and we you know 17 year old girl we fell

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in love in our letters and so when he came home from his mission we met quickly. We got engaged

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quickly. We got married quickly. It just was kind of a whirlwind and without going into too much

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detail what I'll say is from the time that we got married it took about three months for things to

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really fall apart. You know I was barely 18 when we got married like 10 days. Barely 18 and you

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know he was he was older obviously 22, 23 something like this but we were both still kids and

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so again without going into all the all the drama it was not a it was not a healthy relationship.

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So there I was three months married and then I find out I'm pregnant and completely unplanned

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of course and so it just quickly turned into I can't raise this child. I you know like I said 18 and

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not in a great mental health space myself and I was concerned about trying to work with

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the father to raise that baby and what kind of quality of life my son would have and all these

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things. So I think it was about February when I finally made the decision that I was going to

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place the baby for adoption so this would this would have been about six months into marriage

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and so I started working with the agency and back in the day it wasn't looking at profiles online

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like you do now is what I've heard. I haven't actually experienced this but back back in my

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day I was handed like 13 paper profiles with interviews and letters to me and like pictures

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and their medical history and all of this and it was kind of overwhelming and so thank goodness

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for my mother because I moved back in with my mom and she and I sat and went through the profiles and

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it was so overwhelming and we're like how do you qualify one family over another? How do you

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decide who's more deserving or worthy of a child than another one you know? So that was kind of a

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strange experience but the first thing we did was I kind of laugh at this. We filtered out anyone

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who didn't have a college education because it was just kind of a quick and easy way to like

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par it down but I laugh at it because I never graduated college but that doesn't qualify you

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to be a parent but like how else do you filter it out? I don't know so yeah it was just kind of

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funny the criteria that we were like well maybe we'll start here and maybe we'll try this. I laugh

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at it now but at the time it made sense. So I narrowed it down ultimately selected a family,

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met them in March in person and then we continued communicating through letters that were sent

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through the agency so it was very much a closed adoption to begin with. Everything had to be

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filtered through the agency. They would open everything to make sure there was no personal

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information. We didn't know last names anything like that and at the time I don't recall there

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being different. This was almost 20 years ago and you know I know open adoption was

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starting to become more common but at the time that was the norm. It was just privacy was super

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important so but we had great social workers that kept us in touch and made sure we got our

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communications with each other so we were able to stay in touch and his adopted mom

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asked me to keep a journal of my experience throughout the pregnancy so I did and I included

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pictures of my family and I actually read that recently in preparation for this interview. It

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was kind of cool to to look back on but anyway so then it was due date time and again I don't know

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how common this is but at the time with everything being closed and structured at the time I was

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being closed and structured the pregnancy was induced or the delivery was induced so I got to

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the hospital got induced went through the whole delivery of course and the thing that stands out

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to me about that experience it was hard but you know he was born and I got to spend two days just

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loving on him and being so happy and getting to feed him and do all the things that I wasn't going

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to get to do but the thing that stands out to me the most is the moment when I had to sign the papers

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that relinquished my rights because I had him in my left arm and a pen in my right hand as I'm

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signing these rights away and there's social workers and nurses and my mom and I was still

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legally married even though we were very so this divorce had been filed and everything but because

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there was a child involved they wanted to ensure the adoption took place before they granted a

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divorce without um you know custody and parental rights so I was still legally married and my

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husband at the time was on the phone with my social worker to make sure I signed the papers

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so that he would also sign the papers like it was the most I don't have any other words for it like

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controlling I don't know it was awful it was just this really strange experience and I didn't really

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get to um what that it's it having that dynamic going on kind of in the background made it all the

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more difficult yeah so it wasn't how you wanted it not at all yeah thank you for helping me find my

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word yeah not at all how I wanted it and um very very not not public but it felt I felt exposed I

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felt very exposed and like if I wanted to change my mind all of a sudden there was no way I could

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now I didn't I knew the right thing for my baby and I didn't want to change my mind but there was

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that kind of pressure with all going on for sure um so then I uh gave the baby you know I got to

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be the one to place the baby in mom's arms and say my goodbyes and all of that and then we stayed

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in touch um at the time and I haven't read up on laws lately but at the time adoption processes

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were six months before it was completed and like legally final so for that six months the agency

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still filtered our communications they would send me pictures of of how he was doing and I mean they

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were amazing I got so so lucky with the parents because I mean they would send me stacks an inch

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thick of pictures of every little thing bath time and feeding time and he's just sleeping and it was

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amazing I have photo albums from his first two years of life that just I just got really really

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fortunate they even sent me dvds with like videos of him having his first this or that and so I got

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to be really um at least connected and see that he was okay and he was thriving and uh all the love

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that he was surrounded by um fast forward that went on for about 18 months so when he was about

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18 months old um I think it was at about actually the year mark that the agency stopped filtering

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the letters and we started emailing so still no last names or anything but we had email information

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and so they emailed me at when he was about 18 months old and asked if I'd be willing to meet

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just them for dinner so we did we met at Bombay House uh it was their favorite place so we met

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there for Indian food and they brought it up to me that um they felt strongly that if he grew up

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not only knowing that he was adopted because they were very open with him about that he had a photo

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of me pregnant with him on his nightstand right they were very open about where he was from

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but they just had this strong feeling that by opening it up and removing the mystery as they

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called it of like where he's from what taking away that fantasy and romanticizing that we do when

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there's these questions um it could only help him and and you know they said at the time

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there wasn't a lot of research we don't know what open adoption really looks like and how that

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and how that affects these kids as they grow up but it feels like the right thing to do for us

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if you're open to it and of course I was like uh yes please absolutely I would love that so it was

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it only took a couple of weeks we met at a park and I baked a little you know summer cake thinking

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because I wanted to I don't know it was something that I I don't know I felt the need to bring a

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treat I don't know I love that I baked to show love I can see that if that right like yeah it's

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it's like okay I want to bring something that I usually didn't so I had to like home bake a

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orange creamsicle cake or something I don't remember but showed up at the park and little

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guy was there playing and he knew who I was he recognized me and came straight up to me and

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and it was just kind of remarkable that all that time later and he you know 18 months

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so he obviously didn't remember me from the hospital but they'd clearly been

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talking to him and showing pictures and all of that so he knew exactly who I was and was very

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comfortable with me and let me hug him and everything and since then I've seen him

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three or four times a year typically if not more we don't live very far apart

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but enough that it's challenging but I've celebrated every birthday with him since he was two

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I've been to he's a very accomplished musician I've been to all of his concerts that I that I can

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he's even come and stayed with me and my family now and met he's come to family reunions on my

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side and I've gotten to meet a lot of his extended family and it's just completely open and it's been

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completely open and it's been that way now he'll be 20 this year and so it's been 18 years of open

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adoption and I think it's truly been a blessing for both of us but most specifically for him

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so that's that's kind of the high level story of of me being a birth mom. Wow

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it's amazing thank you so much for sharing as you think about these experiences that you've had

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with openness what would you want others to know who might be hesitant about open adoption based

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on your experiences? Sure well there's not a textbook on how to do it right there's and

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and while it is more common now and I haven't I haven't like dove into the research and the

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details so I'm speaking only from my experience and not from like some educated space but I guess

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what I would say is that it's it is a good thing and I think that the the child having the ability

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to understand themselves and ask questions about their life and even just from like the medical

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history like knowing being able to have open dialogue about those things I think is really

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important but I think the thing that makes most people hesitant is what if it doesn't work or

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what if the relationship doesn't vibe or what if birth mom expects too much or these kinds of

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things and and this is something we talked about myself and my son's parents early on is

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we committed to just having really open dialogue and what's working and what's not and and my

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favorite thing that his mom ever said to me is like listen we can set boundaries but the boundaries

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can change just because that's what we set now doesn't mean that's what it has to be forever

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and and I think that's something that's key for people to understand is that listen you start one

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way and you try it and if it's not working for either of you you can make adjustments so that

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it works but the key there is having that open dialogue and mutual respect because I think

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um I think the respect that each of us have had for each other's roles um is also has also been a

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really big piece of why it's worked so well. Wow that is such amazing advice I love all of that

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and so the open communication the respect and recognizing that boundaries can change. Absolutely.

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I think that's so wonderful thank you. Yeah. So how do you think these experiences

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that you've had as a birth mom have really shaped your life?

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Wow um so much I think early on you know if you if you put this into perspective I went in the

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in my year from 18 to 19 I got married was in an abusive relationship got divorced had a child

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gave that child up all before I was 19 years old so it really that trauma really shaped my early

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20s I was lost I was um it was just a painful painful time in my life and not just because I

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had given up a child that obviously was very painful but I knew it was the right thing I

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never for a second doubted my or or questioned what my choice was um but I think I let it I think I

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let the trauma define me a lot for those first few years and I really really struggled Mother's Day

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was always awful I would just cry and cry and it's like I would get offended if people in my family

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didn't acknowledge me on Mother's Day but then at the same time I didn't want to be recognized on

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Mother's Day and so it was just this very confusing difficult time that unfortunately led to me making

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even more not awesome decisions in my early adulthood that led to more difficulty throughout

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my adult life and it took me a really long time I I mean I think it took me about 10 years to really

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find myself and find confidence in who I was and um you know I was one of the things that I read

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in my journal that I had made for my son is that he gave me purpose and he was the first time

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that this experience with him was the first time I felt important in the world

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and so there was this piece of that like what's so if he's my purpose and that's what's important

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and what is left right and so um thankfully I had an amazing relationship with them and and was able

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to be a part of his life and so it helped kind of keep me going and and keep me um feeling important

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in his life and I had a great support system around me but but that experience uh I mean all

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of it but specifically giving up a child I think um that's a that's a trauma that I don't really

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know how to describe but it definitely set the stage for a rough uh early adulthood for me.

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So challenging so were there support systems that helped like was there

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uh any counseling offered from the agency after placement or anything like that like?

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No that was really interesting is that as soon as as soon as the baby was placed the agency

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essentially would just get the mail to me. There were no check-ins there was no counseling um

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I think six weeks after I maybe heard from my social worker to check in on me but other than

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that it was up to me and thankfully again I was with my mom and she was very supportive and made

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sure that I was getting help and had people to talk to and um and I wasn't always receptive to

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it but I I generally would kind of lean on that on that counseling and but it was entirely up to

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us to find and you know there weren't that I'm aware of there weren't like groups and as a birth

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mom you know you something I've observed in my in recent months is as a birth mom there's not a lot

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out there there's a lot not a lot there's a little more for adopted parents and for adoptees but for

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birth moms and I don't know if it's because most birth moms choose to stay private and they don't

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want to share that very intimate thing about themselves I'm not sure but there's just not a

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lot of resources out there on um surviving after placing a child so yeah it wasn't it was pretty

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much up to me and my mom. Oh yeah that's really too bad I feel like a theme that comes up on our

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podcast pretty often is that secrecy and stigma build into shame and these cycles of shame are

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so hard to shake and it sounds like that lack of support is really just feeding into that I hope

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things are better for people placing now but that's hard. Yeah and I agree I think I think

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there is still a stigma because you got to remember it wasn't that long ago that girls that found

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themselves pregnant were shipped off to live somewhere else to have the baby in private so

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they didn't bring shame to the family I mean what was that 40 50 years ago and even though that

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seems like a while it's not that long ago yeah and so I think the stigma is still really really

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strong and I don't I think our society is ready to handle it but I don't know how many of us are

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comfortable being that vulnerable and setting ourselves up to be shamed you know. Yeah yeah

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that is a really vulnerable place to be so another thing that struck me was your hospital experience

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where you had these couple of days where you were able to like feed baby and take care of your son

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and bond with him but then signing papers it wasn't really on your terms at all yeah and so

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looking back how could people have better advocated for you what do you think could have

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changed like how could that have been a better experience what do you think? Well yeah that's

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you know and I haven't really spent a lot of time reflecting on that but I carried a lot of anger

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about that because once I educated myself and understood that I could have advocated for myself

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more and said no I'm not doing it like this and you know my sweet mom didn't know either we just

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were doing what we were told I wish the social worker would have advocated for me more because

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certainly the social worker had to have known that it didn't have to be like that yeah I didn't have

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to have my ex-husband on the other end of the phone waiting to make sure that I had done my part

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and so I guess I kind of and even even the social worker on the other side I don't I know they were

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aware of the situation and I guess I just wish that the people that were informed and there to be

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supportive I had a little more compassion for what I was doing and and ensuring to create a safe

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space for me to do that and I wish I had educated myself more. I think I think we often rely on

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others in their profession to take care of us but at the end of the day it's all it's up to us as

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well and so I wish I had done more research throughout the pregnancy of what was or wasn't

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allowed or okay or like how what what my rights were as a birth mom in that moment when I'm

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actually giving up my rights you know what I mean but yeah and and and I don't know if this is

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possible but it almost seems like an appropriate time to have a neutral almost a mediator but but

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specific to you know one that's very informed about these situations but almost a third party

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that's not representing any one person but just making sure everybody's okay you know.

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I think that's such a good idea and like not being an agency or yeah anything.

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Exactly and even even considering you know I was angry for a really long time I've been able to

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get over that now but so now with my with my hindsight eyes I can even imagine my ex-husband

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how hard that was for him and that probably wasn't a healthy thing for him to be sitting there on the

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other end of the line either you know so really it wasn't good for any of us and it would have been

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nice to have an objective perspective to kind of facilitate a healthier more more peaceful

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experience in such a non-peaceful and difficult time you know. Yeah well and it also sounds like

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it could have been a lot more beneficial if things have been offered afterward as well like

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post-placement counseling and therapy. Absolutely. Yeah absolutely.

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So you and your son's adoptive parents met when he was like 18 months old and talked about

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opening things up and so it sounds like you had a really healthy conversation about what that would

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look like at that point. Do you have any tips or advice on how to have those conversations?

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Well like I said I kind of hit the jackpot I just I got really lucky with two very down to earth

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and honest and communicative people so I think the thing that has worked really well

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and specifically for me is I think through other stories I've heard a lot of times I think families

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adopted parents want to kind of bend over backwards for the birth mom and I never felt that way from

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them it felt very what is the word I'm thinking of? Like natural or? Yeah it felt very natural and it

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didn't feel forced and it didn't and it it was very clear that it was this is something we're

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doing for him and so at any point if it's not working for him we we're going to make adjustments

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and I think that's the perspective going into these conversations that you need to have is that

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this is for a benefit of the child this is so that the child can have that understanding of who they

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are where they're from you know a stronger sense of identity and all of those things

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there's not really room for our own egos and our own agendas it's got to come from a place

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a truly paternal like parent's place not paternal but parental place of doing the right thing for

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the kid yeah I think that would be the the number one tip would be to just

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really really come from the perspective of doing the right thing for the child.

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I love that so much I think that could solve so many problems in adoption if we just focus

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focus on the children yeah yeah I think so too I've heard a lot of stories of

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birth moms that get involved and they can't separate the emotional side of it which I

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completely relate to but got to keep the kiddos up front of mind right.

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Oh it's beautiful so in your experience do you feel like when things opened up with your

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adoption did that affect your healing at all or that experience you were really struggling with

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with trauma and post placement feelings did that influence that do you think?

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I do think it helped I remember that for the first couple of years when I started spending

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more time with him and his family it was like simultaneously therapeutic and healing to be there

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and to see him I was very unsure of my place and how to act at first but I got more comfortable

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but it was always like when I was driving away and I would just kind of cry and it wasn't like

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a breakdown or anything it was just kind of like just really heavy and so it was it was emotional

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but but I think in a good way I do think it helped me heal and it certainly helped to see him

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thriving and surrounded by such incredible people learning such amazing things and

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you can just you could just feel the love in the home and yeah so I do think that it helped

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in my healing process for sure. Well but it was also challenging because maybe yeah it was yeah

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yeah yeah it was challenging but if I try to imagine having not been involved in his life I

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think it would have been harder because then it's it's the same thing it's the mystery of is he okay

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what's he up to what is he like what's his favorite color all these things yeah but I knew all of that

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I knew he was okay so the the pain was coming from that was a really hard thing I just did

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and it takes a few years to recover from something like that but but I do think it absolutely helps

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helped me heal more than it didn't if that makes sense. It does thank you. So thinking about the

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adoption community at large what do you think some of the biggest challenges we're facing as a

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community are? Yeah this and this is something I've just kind of recently been diving into you know

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I've kind of had my story and I have a brother who adopted a child and so I've kind of had it in my

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life but I haven't immersed myself in the community until recently and so what I've been discovering

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and again this is not coming from an educated space at all just just my observations.

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Is it it does seem like resources are lacking for all parties involved it doesn't seem like

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there's a ton of research there's there's some literature that you can pick up and read there's

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a few groups around but largely it feels like the adoption community has kind of been left up to

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themselves to figure it out. I don't I don't see we have an organization up here

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that is all it's a non-profit organization and it's an amazing organization but they do a lot of

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free parenting classes for example and free counseling and education for blending families

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and step families and how that looks and I've actually asked them why don't you also have

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resources like this for families that have adoption in their story because it's very unique it's

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different from blending families it's different from step families it's it's very different and

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the dynamics and the and the issues that adoptee children deal with is different and it it's kind

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of like it didn't occur to them and they were like oh yeah that's a great idea I don't know

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maybe we'll look into that and so to me it's it's kind of like forgotten it's almost like it just

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doesn't know nobody really knows what to do with it so nothing happens and so I think it's kind of

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happens and I see that shifting I can see that there are more efforts but it's it's almost like

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no one like again no one's quite sure what needs to happen so I think the biggest challenge is

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is again just opening the dialogue and starting somewhere instead of leaving it up to individuals

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to rally and try to make something good happen. Wow I love that so do you have any thoughts what

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do you think would be a good place to start? Well I've heard a lot I actually spoke with a few

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birth mother organizations and apparently there's a lot of anger that kind of hangs out in these

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birth mom groups and I think when you get a bunch of angry people together to try to support each

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other it turns toxic really fast and a lot of the anger is is towards the agencies why didn't the

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agency do more for me but I have kind of a maybe unpopular opinion on that because in my mind

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the agency's job is to make sure the child finds a family and is made and is placed there safely.

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That's their job so when they've placed that child it makes sense to me that they kind of go

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onto the next we have another baby we've got to find a home for right so yes would it be lovely

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if the agency would also provide some services for their birth moms because that's important too.

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Yes that's lovely but that's not that's not their wheelhouse that's not their skill set

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it's almost like there needs to be some power referral program going on where agencies go okay

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thank you so much you've done your part we need to move on to the next but this is where you go next

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and some some place where birth moms can find some support and and it doesn't matter if they're

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insured and if they can afford it but but almost a birth mom I don't know if you'd call it an agency

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or whatever but some some group where there can be recovery support and um and counseling and these

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things with people who are experienced and experts in that because again the agencies are experts in

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in the adopted families right.

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I think to me that seems like an obvious one but I don't really know how you make that happen

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again this all requires money and resources and there's not endless amounts of that but as far as

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for adoptees and adopted families I'm not as familiar with resources out there for that

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I think there are a few more but still room lots of room for improvement.

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So how do you think your perceptions of adoption have changed over time I feel like you've alluded

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to this a little bit I'd love to hear more. Yeah um in the beginning it kind of felt like that was

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my only choice it was either keep this baby and he's going to have a terrible life because

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it was just not terrible but it was going to be hard or give him a family that's going to give

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him everything that he deserves right and I so I didn't really have an opinion of adoption it just

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kind of was what I needed to do and then for the first few years after I was pretty angry and not

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specifically at any one person it was just I think how we deal with grief sometimes um and so I would

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target it at different places and sometimes it was the agency but not always um but for me it was

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there's a very specific moment and I actually wrote a story about this a long time ago that I

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gave to my brother um so my brother and sister-in-law couldn't have they tried for five years couldn't

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have babies so they decided to adopt and I could spend a whole other episode with you talking about

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all of the amazing coincidental connections that happened in my adoption story that make it like

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divine intervention that this happens like it's it's crazy but I won't the only thing I will say

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is that my son's parents were on a panel for parents that were getting ready to adopt and

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my brother happened to sit on that panel and as they told their story they made the connection

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that it was me and so they got to meet each other and um so that was really really neat that they

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they made that connection um and and of course they were super respectful like

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talked to them privately and were like I think you're I think who you're talking about is my

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sister I think anyway so through their story or their journey they um they ended up getting

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a baby that was five months old and out of state and so they had to go fly to that place to bring

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the baby home and and we were all there at the at the airport with our signs welcoming the baby

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and they came walking down the um exit whatever with with their little bundle and I just I broke

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down then they handed me the baby and I just held her and cried but it was that was the moment I

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healed because I saw the miracle from the other side um I got to be firsthand witness to my this

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beautiful couple who was so desperately wanted to have a family and couldn't and the miracle

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that she brought into not just their lives but all of us and I can't imagine my life without my

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niece right and and all of the memories that we have in the it's like she was meant to be a part

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of our family and that was the moment that I realized I guess I stopped thinking about it

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about from the perspective of what I lost and started thinking about it from what everyone else

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gained um and so I think that was kind of a pivotal moment as far as like how my how my

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perception has shifted is that uh it went from kind of like it was a necessity I had no other

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choice to like no this is actually a really beautiful thing and should be celebrated and

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should not be a secret because everybody that's involved are wonderful people that

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have to set themselves aside to do something kind of miraculous wow that's so beautiful

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this was really really great thank you oh my goodness well thank you so much I have loved

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hearing from you thank you so much

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well we want to give a huge thanks to Kiara again for her willingness to share her experience and

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her story and obviously everyone's story is unique but I think I learned a lot of great

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of great great things from her yeah I really enjoyed speaking with her she was really focused

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on adoptee experiences and I thought that was really beautiful just hearing her talk about

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how she keeps her son at the center of these decisions she makes which is really our goal

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with open adoption and so I really appreciated that yeah and kudos to the adoptive parents of

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of this baby right who reached out and established this relationship and connection while he was still

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yet pretty young I loved when she shared that they went to the park and he ran up to her and he

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already knew who she was even though they hadn't met since you know delivery but this adoptive

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family had fostered a conversation in their home about his birth mother that was loving and like

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helped him know of his origins and his connection to her I love that I love that too I do think

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that there's a part of every child that's going to remember their birth parents right and especially

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their birth mom but yeah I thought that was a really beautiful example of how these adoptive

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parents were making sure to speak kindly and often and just really incorporating their child's

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birth mom into their home and family yeah yeah I feel like when adoption is done right it should

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really feel like our circle and our family is growing right and so it's not like the change

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of your family and your circle but it's like it grows and expands yeah it's not like it shifts

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it just grows yeah I also really loved and I mentioned this in the very beginning but I also

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loved the moment where she is holding her now adopted niece and has this realization like

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she's always been part of our family or belonged to our family and for her she said that was a

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moment of healing experiencing it from the other side where she had placed the baby in a home and

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had hoped for the best for his circumstance and she couldn't really feel that or know that from

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from her perspective but then yeah just hearing how she articulated that it helped her feel

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like I guess more holistic about the experience yeah that was really beautiful

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yeah adoption is so complicated right like it's so complex there's so many struggles and so many

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struggles and so many challenges and there's also beauty in it but there's also pain and there's

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trauma and it's so just so deeply complex and I feel like it's a challenge right to make sure

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that we're acknowledging these hard parts but we also want to acknowledge the beautiful parts and

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yeah it's a challenge right like and it gets easier as an adoptee grows older they can

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let you know yeah what they're feeling and what want to focus on but yeah actually it reminds me

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of a personal experience that we had just this week where we were traveling as a family and we

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were we were in the area of our youngest child's biological grandma his birth father's mother

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and we knew that we would be close to her home and so we reached out and found out a time to meet

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and we're able to meet her for the first time and it's been four years since he was adopted

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and we've had connection a little connection with social media yeah social media that makes

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things so nice and we have like a you know a group chat that has tons of extended family of his in

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it but just to see this little connection between him and his biological grandma was really really

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sweet and there were there were aspects of that interaction that were just really natural and

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just genuine and it was so sweet to see and as I was sitting there on the couch watching them kind

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of play with each other this idea of you know his circle getting bigger or expanding the little

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the amount of people loving him and and doting on him and not just him that our other kids too

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felt this love from her um it was just well I think it was also cool for our older kids to be

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able to see that connection as well with a biological family member who we hadn't met in

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person yet yeah but see that tangible connection and there's something special about it and so I

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thought that was really neat to be able to celebrate that all together well and I thought

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it was interesting too one of like the natural consequences of this was we feel more connection

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and love with her and um you know I think we've been gone an hour when she texts sent a text and

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said hey can you remind me of the birth dates of the other kids too I want to make sure that I send

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them little birthday presents as well and so it was just this really awesome uh I guess witness that

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we're this big eclectic family and we support each other and all all of us are connected to each

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other even though there's you know different biological ties yeah different legal ties but

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it's still we're all connected yeah it's just really beautiful yeah I love that that was a

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really neat experience well friends thanks so much for listening to this episode again to

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Kiara we're really grateful for her sharing her story um so grateful for you as our listeners we

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love being a part of this community one thing that Kiara mentioned was that she still feels like

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you know there's not a lot of research done in in the adoption community or about open adoption

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and that sometimes we're kind of left alone to figure it out and we hope that we can be

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can be a resource and a help to those that feel that way and we're going to do what we can do

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as a couple as an organization to dive deeper and learn more than doing her PhD

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researching and we'll share some of the things that she learns and we're just

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grateful to be part of this community and hope that we can add to your experience

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soon