1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,600 Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,960 This is episode 104, we're the Nelsons. 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:07,040 I'm Lanette. 4 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:08,240 And I'm Shaun. 5 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:09,800 And in today's episode, we actually 6 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:13,840 have a conversation between Lanette and Alisha Gallagher. 7 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,040 And Alisha is our Director of Communications 8 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:17,920 here at the Open Adoption Project. 9 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:19,320 She is wonderful. 10 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,120 And so we have a discussion about boundaries. 11 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,720 We've been doing a bit of a series the last few episodes 12 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:26,960 where we've been talking about some of these questions 13 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,480 we get pretty frequently about openness and adoption 14 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:31,880 and these relationships. 15 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:33,400 And so in this episode, we're talking 16 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:35,480 about some common questions we get 17 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:38,480 about establishing healthy boundaries and open adoption 18 00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:39,640 relationships. 19 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,480 We're so grateful for Alisha and the role that she's played, 20 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:45,560 especially in helping us with our social media. 21 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,320 She was also the editor on the openness guide 22 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,800 that Lanette just recently published. 23 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:53,800 If you're interested in learning more about that, 24 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,920 go to openadoptionproject.org and just scroll down 25 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:58,640 and it'll be on the home page. 26 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,120 And again, we're just really thankful for Alisha, 27 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,800 for her help and volunteering to do so much. 28 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,840 And we're just grateful for her to be in this episode as well. 29 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,400 So we'll cut to the episode and conversation right now 30 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,440 with Lanette and Alisha Gallagher. 31 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:19,280 We are here today with Alisha Gallagher. 32 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,040 Alisha is our Director of Communications 33 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:23,360 here at Open Adoption Project. 34 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,520 She is fantastic and helps us keep things running here 35 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:27,800 so smoothly. 36 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,120 And Alisha is also a foster parent. 37 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,560 Alisha, do you want to tell us a bit about yourself? 38 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:33,600 Yeah, sure. 39 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,160 I live in Alameda County in California. 40 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,600 I've been a foster parent for four years. 41 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,280 And the kids that are with us now, 42 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,280 we are moving toward adoption with them. 43 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,720 So we have some fostering experience 44 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,200 moving to adoption and really support everything 45 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,720 that Lanette and Shaun talk about on open adoption. 46 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:55,240 Awesome. 47 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,840 So we're so honored to have you here talking today with us. 48 00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,120 As we talk about boundaries, this 49 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,920 is such a big and challenging topic to discuss, honestly. 50 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,240 I feel like it's probably one of our most frequently 51 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,240 asked questions, questions regarding boundaries. 52 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:10,960 How do I do this? 53 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,200 And so I think it's an important thing to chat about. 54 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,240 But it's also really sensitive, right, and so individual. 55 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:18,520 Yeah, it is. 56 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,600 I think knowing what your own boundary is, 57 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:24,680 because it will change from person to person, 58 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,400 so knowing yourself well enough to set a boundary, 59 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,600 knowing the people that you're trying to set a boundary with 60 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:32,160 well enough. 61 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:36,120 It's so unique, so the principles can feel so broad. 62 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,680 But I wonder if that's why that's 63 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,320 one of the most common questions that we get. 64 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:45,040 Yeah, well, and a relationship with one birth parent 65 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,760 might be totally different than a relationship with another. 66 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:49,840 And then there's other family members. 67 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:51,260 And each of those relationships are 68 00:02:51,260 --> 00:02:54,720 going to be so individual, and just working with different 69 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:56,600 people, different personalities. 70 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:57,840 It looks different. 71 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:02,800 And so it's challenging to paint a broad picture of how 72 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,880 we approach setting boundaries when people are all so different 73 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:07,360 and situations are different. 74 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,680 But it's so true, important to talk about. 75 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,160 Yeah, so as we've chatted, me and Alisha, 76 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,360 about what we want to share with you today, 77 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:20,280 we've talked a little about how we first 78 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:22,240 establish these boundaries, right? 79 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:26,160 And establishing them from the beginning. 80 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,840 So why do you think it's important, Alisha, for us 81 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:33,000 to set boundaries from the start, or at least try to? 82 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,440 The trying to, I think it's the trying to. 83 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,160 Because I'm sure with your first adoption 84 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:43,680 and our first experience in foster care, 85 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,140 you know that setting boundaries is a good principle. 86 00:03:47,140 --> 00:03:50,640 But how do you actually do it, and what 87 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:52,200 should your expectations be? 88 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,960 So I feel like at the beginning, it's a little more rigid, 89 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,600 because you're just copy pasting what other people have done. 90 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,800 And now you actually have to implement it, 91 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:04,380 and so it's going to change over time. 92 00:04:04,380 --> 00:04:09,440 But I think you have to have something from the beginning 93 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:15,320 in terms of amount of what level of communication. 94 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,360 The birth parent is expecting what they want, 95 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,760 and then in that conversation, you're 96 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:23,840 also able to express what you're wanting. 97 00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:26,560 So maybe at the beginning, it's more 98 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:31,200 of just having that conversation about boundaries first. 99 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,760 And then you can kind of feel it if they're uncomfortable 100 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,720 or comfortable with something that you feel differently about. 101 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:39,240 I love that. 102 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,080 I think that's really good advice. 103 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:45,120 When Shaun and I were adopting for the very first time, 104 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:46,800 we had a lot of these conversations 105 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:48,880 with our social worker about setting boundaries, 106 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,640 and we weren't really sure what to do or what that meant. 107 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:53,920 So it's like you said, where we were kind of just doing what 108 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:55,880 other people told us they did. 109 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,040 And so I think we had this prescribed amount of visits 110 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:00,320 we were going to do in a year. 111 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,280 It was like four visits a year or something like that, 112 00:05:02,280 --> 00:05:04,640 and we talked about this with these expectant parents, 113 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,200 and they were chill with it. 114 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,320 But as time went on, we were like, 115 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,280 these aren't really the boundaries 116 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:12,960 that this relationship needs. 117 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:13,460 Interesting. 118 00:05:13,460 --> 00:05:17,200 We realized we're fine having you visit any time you can. 119 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,920 And it doesn't need to be like this rigid calendar 120 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,280 in this relationship. 121 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:25,720 But maybe we should have been talking about other things 122 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:26,320 instead. 123 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,680 We didn't know because it was a new relationship. 124 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:34,680 So you felt like for you, you opened up a little bit more. 125 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:35,680 Is that right? 126 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:36,280 Yeah. 127 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:37,000 Absolutely. 128 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:38,120 Yeah. 129 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:39,120 That's really cool. 130 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:44,320 Yeah, our experience in the foster care system 131 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:49,440 is it involves boundary setting with so many different parties. 132 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,920 So there's boundaries in terms of contact 133 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,120 with the biological family members. 134 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,200 Sometimes the caseworker will ask 135 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,360 if you're comfortable letting them have your phone number. 136 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,440 Other times, they might ask you to supervise a visit. 137 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,440 That's happened to us before, and we've 138 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,600 had to assess our comfort level on that. 139 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,480 Then there's also boundaries that the caseworkers who 140 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,560 are needing a lot from you, can you give rides 141 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,240 if a ride falls through? 142 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,200 And then there's the children who 143 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,080 might have grown up in a home that had different rules 144 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:23,640 than you did. 145 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:29,000 So it's baptism by fire to jump into it 146 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,360 and then realize that you need to eventually learn 147 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,400 what your boundaries are or you're going to burn out. 148 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:35,680 Yeah. 149 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:36,520 Yeah. 150 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,880 I can totally imagine that. 151 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:40,080 Well, maybe. 152 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:40,560 I don't know. 153 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:41,240 Yeah. 154 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,240 Yeah, it sounds really challenging. 155 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,320 And I feel like it's not quite as complicated 156 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,240 on the domestic adoption side, but you 157 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,560 do have all of these different relationships. 158 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,600 And sometimes maybe the birth parents are together at first 159 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:56,560 and then they break up. 160 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,600 And you have these boundaries of I 161 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,400 don't want to be the middleman in this relationship. 162 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,040 It's about the child and just trying 163 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:09,680 to keep things focused on why these relationships matter, 164 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,920 I think, is a really helpful compass for navigating it. 165 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,440 But it doesn't mean we always know what the boundaries need 166 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,040 to be in the beginning. 167 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,640 So I think it's so important to try 168 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,120 to establish these boundaries in the beginning 169 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,120 and be really honest and clear about what you're expecting, 170 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,400 but also recognize that we're not 171 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,200 going to be able to anticipate everything we might need 172 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,560 to talk about from the start. 173 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,800 Yeah, some flexibility and trust by then 174 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,320 has hopefully been established. 175 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,160 Yeah, absolutely. 176 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:41,680 All right. 177 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:43,600 So yeah, I think it's really important for us 178 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,360 to be clear about expectations, be self-aware, 179 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,640 and think about our own expectations 180 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:51,680 so we can honestly communicate them, 181 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,520 but also compassionately think about what 182 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,560 the hopes and expectations of other parties are. 183 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,000 And then also focus on the child. 184 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:02,440 We've been talking about, right? 185 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,480 We want to be focused on child well-being. 186 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,440 Open adoption should always be focused on adoptees. 187 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:14,280 And so that can be a really hard tightrope, I think. 188 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:15,840 Yes, yes, it can be. 189 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,280 So I like what you said, though, that it's 190 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,320 focused on the child. 191 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:24,360 Because the boundary setting at the beginning 192 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,800 between biological family members and the adoptive family, 193 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,600 if you agree that this relationship and boundary work 194 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:35,560 is worth it for the child, then you can always 195 00:08:35,560 --> 00:08:38,040 have that to come back to. 196 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:39,960 I don't know if you've experienced anything like that 197 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,760 or heard of anything like that, Lanette. 198 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:47,440 Yeah, so we get a lot of people asking us questions about, 199 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,240 like, hey, this open adoption relationship 200 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,600 has gotten really hard. 201 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,880 And I just can't handle it anymore, right? 202 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,800 I feel like it's just too much. 203 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,520 It's overwhelming, and I can't do it. 204 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,440 And I can relate to that, honestly, 205 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:08,400 because some of these relationships are hard. 206 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,880 They're emotionally taxing. 207 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,000 They can be challenging sometimes. 208 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,520 Some personalities kind of clash a little more, 209 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,960 and it might be challenging to work in some situations 210 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,800 together in this way where you're 211 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:24,840 really focused on the child. 212 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,520 But it's also so important, right? 213 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,640 It's so challenging because you need 214 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,080 to be taking care of yourself, but you're 215 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:35,680 focused on taking care of this child, 216 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:39,880 and that's your number one in the openness. 217 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,840 Yeah, I was just going to ask, do you feel like when people are 218 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,680 talking about being stressed and burned out, 219 00:09:46,680 --> 00:09:50,080 that that's a signal to set, like, 220 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:51,880 define the boundary more clearly? 221 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:56,600 Because if they feel like they're overextending 222 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,240 themselves, then is that an opportunity 223 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:05,240 to say, like, all of this level of contacts in this season 224 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:06,960 is too much? 225 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,360 Can an adoptive parent feel empowered enough 226 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,600 to approach that? 227 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,120 I think that that's a really challenging question. 228 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:20,880 I think maybe, but I also think that often, 229 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:25,520 we, our culture, I think, is getting really good 230 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,880 at recognizing the importance of self-care, 231 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,040 but I think it also sometimes treads a little too close 232 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:37,360 on the line of getting our priorities out of whack, right? 233 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,920 And so if things are getting too challenging, 234 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:46,240 maybe you need to say, hey, I need someone to help support me 235 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:52,240 in making this open relationship more possible and plausible 236 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,360 without it all being on my shoulders, right? 237 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,840 Like, maybe there's someone else who can step in and help, 238 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:06,640 but I would be really cautious about receding openness just 239 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,040 because it's feeling taxing on you. 240 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:14,240 If there's an issue with safety or promises being broken, 241 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,880 then those can be addressed because those 242 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:17,880 are different issues, right? 243 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:23,480 But if it's because it's so much emotional work for yourself 244 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,960 to have this open adoption, then I 245 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,040 think that's really a sign that you should talk to someone. 246 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,440 And there should not be any shame in that, right? 247 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,320 And talking with a therapist and saying, 248 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:34,960 hey, I'm trying to work through this. 249 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:35,800 This is for my kid. 250 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:36,720 It's really important. 251 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,320 I'm invested in it, but I'm also feeling burnt out 252 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:45,840 and I had to find a way to keep this relationship strong, 253 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,320 but also take care of ourselves. 254 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,840 Yeah, I really like that you said 255 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,040 you could bring in other help. 256 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:53,840 Because I think another disservice 257 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:59,000 that some of narrative in Western culture, at least, 258 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:04,720 is that moms can do it all, and they can do it all themselves. 259 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:06,200 And they can't. 260 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,800 And I know that's one of the number one things. 261 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:13,360 And open adoption project is that you are not enough, 262 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,480 and that's OK, because you're not meant to do it all 263 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:18,280 by yourself. 264 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,560 So there are other people who can come in and help. 265 00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:25,280 But that maybe the burnout is a prompt to seek support instead 266 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:26,480 of retreat. 267 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:28,720 Yeah, absolutely. 268 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,840 And I really think it's sad that our culture is so 269 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,120 focused on trying to do it all, because we can't do it all. 270 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,520 But it really does take a village to raise a child 271 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:42,160 and to sustain ourselves, too, I think. 272 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:42,880 Yeah, yeah. 273 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,200 I've had to have really honest conversations 274 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:46,720 with our caseworker. 275 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:47,760 She's wonderful. 276 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,120 She visits us and the kids once a month. 277 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:54,600 And in between, she's checking in on us. 278 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,480 And she was seeing how I was handling a few things 279 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,040 with this huge load. 280 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,440 We went from no kids to having three kids, 281 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,880 and the life changes we were trying to make, 282 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:09,480 while also supporting members of their biological family 283 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,040 who we have grown close to. 284 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:15,120 And she just said some really hard truths 285 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,920 that I didn't think I was the type of person to say, 286 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:18,640 no, it's fine. 287 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,080 I can do it all, because people say it over and over again. 288 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:22,800 You can't do it all. 289 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:23,720 You should get help. 290 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:25,480 But somehow, I had fallen into that. 291 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,640 And so we're an offer for her. 292 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,440 I think we've been in a very different place. 293 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:34,600 So ideally, we recognize it in ourselves and seek help. 294 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,320 But if we can't, hopefully, there 295 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:40,640 are other people around us that love us enough and care 296 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,400 about us enough to say the things that are hard to say. 297 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:45,880 Absolutely. 298 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:47,800 I don't want to get too deep into this tangent, 299 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,240 but I recently read an article about how 300 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:55,800 adoptive parents often feel some shame or stigma from society 301 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,000 that makes them feel like maybe less than parents. 302 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,560 And I imagine this transfers to fostering as well. 303 00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:04,800 And how it results in quite often feeling 304 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,360 like they need to do more and how 305 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:12,760 adoptive parents actually are more involved and spend 306 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,640 more time helping volunteer at school 307 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,080 and doing things with their children, 308 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,600 spending time with them, how they're doing more, 309 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,520 but also feeling like that's not adequate because 310 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,400 of this societal stigma that they're 311 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,880 trying to make up for it. 312 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,800 And I think it's important to recognize 313 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,120 we want to be excellent parents. 314 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:36,560 Absolutely. 315 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:42,040 We also can't do all the stuff. 316 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:42,960 Right? 317 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:43,640 Yeah. 318 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:45,360 It's like there's this perception 319 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,600 that you have to make up for some loss that has happened 320 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,400 in a very overworking fashion. 321 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,760 And that's not accurate or sustainable. 322 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,120 So to open it up a little bit more 323 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,040 to think about boundaries and what's reasonable and healthy 324 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,200 is probably healthier. 325 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:02,320 Absolutely. 326 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:08,840 And absolutely destigmatizing, getting help, getting support. 327 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:13,080 So what do you think are the things that adoptive 328 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,640 or prospective adoptive parents should think 329 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,840 about when setting boundaries? 330 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,920 Like contact is probably number one. 331 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,440 Are there other boundary setting things that? 332 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:26,320 Yeah. 333 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,080 So like contact frequency, styles, yeah. 334 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,120 So based on questions we get from people 335 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,200 who listen to the show, we've had a lot of people 336 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,280 ask about social media usage and like, 337 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,320 should we have conversations about? 338 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:44,040 We should. 339 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:44,960 The answer is yes. 340 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,160 But should we have these conversations about, 341 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,600 can birth parents post pictures? 342 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,600 Like I don't post my child's pictures online, 343 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,640 but is it OK for their birthday way to do that? 344 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,640 Like we need to have these conversations 345 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,720 and have an honest and compassionate dialogue 346 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,560 about our expectations there. 347 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,680 I hate that this is on my list, but it's a big thing that 348 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:07,480 comes up often too. 349 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,760 Gifts can be a contentious topic sometimes. 350 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,520 There's a lot of things like hospital expectations 351 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,080 are something you need to really talk 352 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:22,400 about with a social worker. 353 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,800 Expectant parents should be talking about that with a social 354 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,240 worker, not with adoptive parents. 355 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,240 But then adoptive parents need to know what the plan is 356 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,840 so that they can support that plan 357 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:37,640 and not add any different pressures or you know. 358 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,840 So that's also on the list. 359 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,400 There's a lot of things like religious and political 360 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:48,280 preferences are often things people want to talk about. 361 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,200 One thing that we get other questions about 362 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,920 is immunizations and circumcision 363 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,280 for when you have a new baby. 364 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,720 Have those conversations ahead of time. 365 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,800 Yeah, there's a lot to talk about. 366 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,600 Yeah, this is making me think of the openness guide 367 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,120 to open adoption that you created, 368 00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:11,600 that you wrote that a lot of the FAQs 369 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,200 are actually about boundaries. 370 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:19,560 That you have a whole section on gifts and contact 371 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:21,880 and disagreeing about different things. 372 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,560 So yeah, it's a different kind of relationship. 373 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,080 It's not as common in society to see 374 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,520 how an open adoption works. 375 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,280 And so people get caught up. 376 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,560 And I grew up in this kind of family, 377 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,680 but now I have a family that requires more support 378 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,040 and it includes more people. 379 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,080 Yeah, yeah, and I just think it's 380 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:50,640 so important to have those open walls for communication 381 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,120 where people feel safe bringing up any concerns, 382 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:57,040 including making sure that birth parents feel safe talking 383 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,600 about any boundaries that they are needing 384 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,160 or any concerns they're having. 385 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,320 I know that we've talked with one family where 386 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,200 their child's birth mom was feeling really triggered 387 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,680 as she got texts and pictures all the time of baby 388 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:15,680 right after placement. 389 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,480 And so she was like, you know, maybe I want these pictures. 390 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,400 I want them, but I don't know if I can always handle them 391 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:23,920 just popping up on my phone. 392 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,680 And so maybe we can make a different account. 393 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:27,880 You emailed them to me. 394 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,360 I still want all of them, but I just 395 00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:34,160 need to have this boundary where they're not coming in at all 396 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,360 times because I'm still grieving and working 397 00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:38,360 through this process. 398 00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:39,120 Yeah. 399 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:43,440 And that is different from Alexa, 400 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,240 who we've interviewed on the podcast before. 401 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:47,520 You had a great conversation with. 402 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:52,320 And she talked about how she, it was shortly after she 403 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,400 placed her baby for adoption, but that she 404 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,040 wanted all of the pictures and all of the things. 405 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,840 And she even acknowledged that this is what I wanted, 406 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:02,520 and somebody might need it different. 407 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:07,600 And she might have different feelings after a couple of months. 408 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,720 So for the birth parent to realize 409 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,040 how they're responding to it and then feel comfortable 410 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,040 approaching it is so helpful. 411 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,280 Just that it sounds like the adoptive parent role 412 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,800 is to make sure that they're feeling connected and open 413 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,920 and comfortable so that those topics can be discussed. 414 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:29,520 Yeah, absolutely. 415 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,680 So have you seen a change as you are preparing 416 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,360 to adopt these kids that you have been fostering? 417 00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:38,800 Is there a change in how boundaries 418 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,360 function in that shift? 419 00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:45,040 Yeah, it's a dramatic change, especially 420 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,280 because we have such a close relationship 421 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,880 with biological family members when the kids were reunified. 422 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,800 So the kids that we have lived with us for a year and a half, 423 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,640 there was an amazing year of reunification 424 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:00,360 with biological family. 425 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:02,760 And then they came back to live with us, 426 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:04,640 and parental rights were terminated. 427 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,960 So we'll be adopting them in the next year. 428 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:12,960 And it's uncomfortable, to say the least, 429 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,200 to have to say, we used to have you over for Sunday dinners 430 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:18,240 regularly. 431 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,400 And we would bring the kids, and we would spend time together. 432 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,480 We would have holidays together. 433 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,880 And now, because of where things are, 434 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,880 where you are in your life, this relationship has to change. 435 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,280 And we have to change these boundaries for the kids 436 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:40,320 because it's difficult for them to, 437 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,600 they're trying to get a sense of a new life. 438 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,200 And there are just so many elements that go into it. 439 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,280 So those conversations have only just in the last month 440 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,800 or so been happening because it's still so fresh. 441 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,080 And it's very taxing. 442 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,640 It's very hard. 443 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,720 And the number one thing that we have to consider 444 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,800 is what is best for the kids. 445 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:10,680 And that's, I mean, that sounds so obvious, 446 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:11,760 saying it out loud now. 447 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,240 But when you also really care about the biological family 448 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,160 and you want them to feel safe and supported 449 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,280 and get the help that they need, then there 450 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,520 are parts of you that want to make that the priority 451 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:27,480 sometimes because it's such a more urgent need in some ways. 452 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,760 And so we've had a lot of help from support groups 453 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,840 and friends and therapists and family 454 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,160 just to help us stay focused on what 455 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,560 would be good for the kids and then set it up that way. 456 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,920 Beautiful, but really hard. 457 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,800 Yeah, so on positivepsychology.com, 458 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,920 they have these four steps for setting personal boundaries. 459 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,600 And I thought it was actually a really helpful way 460 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,480 to look at how we establish boundaries in our families. 461 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,800 So the first one they have is to define, identify the boundary 462 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,840 that you want to set. 463 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,920 And then second, to communicate and share what's needed. 464 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,880 And then they say to keep it simple. 465 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,760 And then fourth is to set consequences 466 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:18,240 and make sure that it's shared why this is important. 467 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,320 Yeah, is there, out of all these four, 468 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,560 Lanette, one that you have either the most experienced 469 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,000 with and feel really comfortable with 470 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,560 or one that you struggle with the most 471 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:29,880 that you want to talk about? 472 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,640 I think setting boundaries can always 473 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,520 be kind of uncomfortable, right? 474 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,040 Because it's a very vulnerable thing. 475 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:40,000 And you want to make sure that you're 476 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,520 keeping love in the focus of this relationship, 477 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,240 but also setting these boundaries. 478 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:47,720 It's such a hard tightrope. 479 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,680 So yeah, for me, I would say it kind of fluctuates 480 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,040 between the communication and the consequences. 481 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,520 I would say usually communication is the hard one, 482 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,440 because generally, there's not a need 483 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,360 to set these firm consequences. 484 00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:07,520 But when there is, that's the hardest one for me. 485 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,120 Because you, I mean, it's probably easier 486 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:13,760 with your children to follow through with consequences. 487 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,720 But when it's adults and relationships 488 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:21,240 that you really care about, then it's just a different muscle 489 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:22,600 that you're flexing. 490 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,240 Right, well, and yeah, with your children, 491 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,360 it's expected, right, that there's 492 00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:30,880 going to be all of this learning curve. 493 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,200 It's very up and down. 494 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,600 And yeah, of course, you have to communicate and set 495 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:37,760 boundaries all the time. 496 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,160 But when it's with another adult, 497 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,880 it can be a lot more challenging. 498 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:43,800 Yeah. 499 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:44,800 Yep. 500 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:45,680 Yeah, how about you? 501 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,240 Which one's hardest for you? 502 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,880 Defining, I think because it's so new right now 503 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,800 in this new relationship, because before, most 504 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,080 like the goals were, and the communication 505 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,160 was determined by somebody else. 506 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,280 It was kind of that there were elements in this relationship 507 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,280 that the court is defining. 508 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,600 That the goal is reunification. 509 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,840 And to reach that goal, then you are 510 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,360 obligated to bring the kids to these visits, 511 00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:19,000 support them in this way, have this level of contact 512 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,760 with the biological family. 513 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:25,080 And now, once parental rights are terminated, 514 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,000 the court is no longer involved in facilitating 515 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,520 that relationship between the foster parent 516 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,760 and the biological parent. 517 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:37,960 So it's this definition stage of what is good for you, 518 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:42,080 what's good for the kids, and what are we able to do 519 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,920 to be a mediator in it. 520 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,920 Yeah, it's super hard. 521 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,840 Yeah, so I know that in our family, 522 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,400 and in some of our friends' families, 523 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,880 we've seen some of these unanticipated boundaries that 524 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,080 need to be set later on. 525 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:00,520 And they're challenging, right, when 526 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,240 you need to have these conversations later 527 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:04,720 in the relationship. 528 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:13,000 But one example is we had a family member who 529 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,680 called on the phone and said, hey, can I come over right now? 530 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,960 And we were like, yeah, that's great. 531 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:21,800 We're happy to have you come over. 532 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,960 And then they didn't show up. 533 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,240 And this was a family member who hadn't 534 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:28,800 been here for a long time. 535 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,880 And their child was really excited to see them. 536 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,080 And they got really upset with us. 537 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,960 Why aren't they here, angry at us, right? 538 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,800 And it's so hard, because we really 539 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,520 advocate for always speaking positively and kindly 540 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,560 of both families, right? 541 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,160 But also, you need to be honest, right? 542 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:58,360 And so it's like, OK, we have this open door policy. 543 00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:00,520 This family member is invited to be here. 544 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,880 But we can't make them come. 545 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,560 And just trying to help our child understand, 546 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:06,280 they love you. 547 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,360 I'm sure they wanted to come. 548 00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:10,400 But something happened. 549 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,360 And there are different challenges 550 00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:15,640 in this relationship with communication, 551 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,480 where maybe they didn't understand that this is really 552 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,560 a hard thing for you. 553 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,880 And so they're really challenging conversations 554 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:24,840 to have. 555 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,280 And so that's the kind of situation 556 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:30,160 where I think it's so important to talk to that family member 557 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,640 and say, hey, you were really missed. 558 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:38,000 This really affected our child and was really hard for them. 559 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,440 And so in the future, if you want to come visit, 560 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,960 please tell us and not them. 561 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,800 And so if something comes up, we can manage that ourselves. 562 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,640 We will be able to handle it. 563 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,120 But it's not putting that on this child's shoulders 564 00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:55,120 where the disappointment is so crushing. 565 00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:57,640 Instead, they'll just be really happy if they can make it. 566 00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,600 That is so hard. 567 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,920 Can we ask, since then, do you still 568 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,480 feel good about the relationship? 569 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,040 It was a positive conversation. 570 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,080 We don't have to go there if you don't want to. 571 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:17,080 Yeah, no, I think that when we have these conversations, 572 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:18,560 the focus is on the child. 573 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,680 And our parents love them too. 574 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,800 And so they can feel that this is coming from a place of we're 575 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,320 trying to help this child. 576 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:28,040 You love them. 577 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:28,920 We love them. 578 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,720 We're all trying to help them feel loved. 579 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:36,080 And so I think that as long as that's clearly communicated, 580 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,400 then it's felt. 581 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,760 And so they can still be hard conversations. 582 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,360 And it doesn't mean that it won't 583 00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:46,800 be a challenge in the future. 584 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,600 But being on the same page about why maybe this boundary is set 585 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:55,040 where please talk to us instead, it just 586 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,520 helps keep everyone on the same page. 587 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,760 Yeah, well, I really like what you said 588 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:05,960 at the beginning of this, that you said that setting boundaries 589 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:07,640 is such a vulnerable thing. 590 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,360 And that really struck me because I 591 00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:13,080 don't think people always think of boundary 592 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:14,760 setting as vulnerable. 593 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,160 You think of I'm setting a boundary. 594 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:18,520 I'm putting up a fence. 595 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:23,120 I'm putting up a wall to protect what's within 596 00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:25,240 and defend against what's without. 597 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,560 And that's not really the case. 598 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,800 To set a boundary, you have to have some emotional awareness 599 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,280 of what you're experiencing and what the other person is 600 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:36,080 experiencing. 601 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,200 And it's a meeting point instead of a division. 602 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:45,200 And so I really like that shift to boundaries. 603 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,880 Boundary setting is a vulnerable process. 604 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,080 Yeah. 605 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,280 Yeah, I feel like Brene Brown is a great voice on boundaries. 606 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,600 I would recommend any of her books 607 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,600 because she talks about boundaries a lot. 608 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,640 But yeah, it's really an exercise of vulnerability, 609 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,760 I think, that Brene Brown is the one who actually 610 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:04,800 said that originally. 611 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,640 Yes. 612 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:07,840 Credit to Brene. 613 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:09,880 Yes. 614 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,960 There's something, just with this fence analogy 615 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,600 of boundaries, I've just been thinking 616 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:22,280 about that setting up a boundary of any kind 617 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,040 really does allow you to take better care of what's 618 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,640 within that boundary. 619 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,960 Starting a family is kind of like striking out west. 620 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,640 You're going out on this big adventure. 621 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,160 And you have to decide where are you going to build your house 622 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:39,800 and where are you going to put your fields 623 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,560 and where is the barn going to go, 624 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,560 where are we putting the chickens? 625 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,120 And then you have to put a fence somewhere. 626 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:50,960 And because if you don't have that, 627 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,920 then you're looking out at the vast beyond. 628 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,320 And you feel like you have to take care of all of it. 629 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,560 When really, if you have that boundary, that fence, 630 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,440 then you can take better care of what 631 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,080 you can take care of what's within that. 632 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,680 It's not a great analogy. 633 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,160 It always breaks down at some point. 634 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:19,000 But just that caretaking of what's in that fence. 635 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,440 Well, I think that it shows that the relationship's 636 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:22,800 important to you. 637 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,040 Not setting boundaries, I think, is an irresponsible way 638 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,760 to address a really important relationship. 639 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,560 Because you take care of what matters. 640 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,560 And these relationships are so important. 641 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,680 And that's why setting boundaries is important. 642 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,680 It's not like a punishment. 643 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,240 It's a protection for everybody. 644 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,520 Yeah, it's really true. 645 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,400 I really love the book Crucial Conversations. 646 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:50,480 Have you read it? 647 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:51,400 I haven't. 648 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,080 I have tried a few times, but then get distracted 649 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:56,240 with other things going on. 650 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:57,480 So I need to. 651 00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,280 Well, it's an excellent book. 652 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,400 I feel like it's so helpful for navigating 653 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,440 open adoption relationships and really 654 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,880 any challenging conversations. 655 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,760 And so in the book, it talks about how 656 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,160 these conversations that are high stakes, 657 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,520 like something that you're really invested in that 658 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,240 matters, like an open adoption relationship, 659 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,400 these are crucial conversations. 660 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,960 And so when you're faced with these really crucial 661 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,200 conversations, it's really important. 662 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:27,760 I mean, it talks about so many things. 663 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,120 And we can't cover it all here. 664 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,760 But it talks about how it's so important to speak in a way 665 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,360 where you're not attacking. 666 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,120 You're trying to explain how you see it, 667 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,720 but you also want to keep things open so that the other party can 668 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,560 share how they're seeing it, what their experience is, 669 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,480 so that you can both understand each other better 670 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,920 and come together instead of becoming distanced 671 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,200 or having this barrier between you. 672 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,920 You want to understand where the other person's coming from, 673 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:04,440 which I think is just so telling of what we 674 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,000 want in open adoptions. 675 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,720 You want candid and respectful dialogues 676 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,880 where both people are comfortable sharing. 677 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,880 Yeah, that's very empathetic, really. 678 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:18,600 Yeah. 679 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:26,400 So any parting thoughts on how we address boundary 680 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,080 setting in these relationships? 681 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:34,880 I really think that it's really all about self-awareness first 682 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,680 and really trying to hear the other person 683 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:39,920 and what matters to them. 684 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,720 Because I think a lot of people come to adoption, 685 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,240 open adoption, foster care with their walls all the way up 686 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,720 and a lot of uncertainty and fear. 687 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,200 And our response to fear is to just shut out everything 688 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,840 that's unfamiliar and just do what we know. 689 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:02,920 And that's not the way it should be done. 690 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,960 There's a lot more softening and opening and welcoming 691 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,480 and vulnerability that's required 692 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,440 to have healthy relationships that 693 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,040 have to start with really good boundaries and respect 694 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:17,000 for each other. 695 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:17,600 Absolutely. 696 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:18,440 I love that. 697 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,440 Well, and I love how earlier you were talking about how 698 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,440 we want our focus to be on our kids, on these adoptees. 699 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,960 But how that can be challenging also 700 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,120 when you come to really love their biological family too. 701 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,280 And I think that it's so important to build 702 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,000 that empathy and that relationship with birth family 703 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,280 too as a bridge. 704 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,080 And so I mean, it's like I agree with what 705 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,640 you're saying about the priority is always the adoptee. 706 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:49,880 But I also think it's so important 707 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:54,560 to get to know the hearts of these family members 708 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:59,080 and really have this genuine respect and love for them. 709 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,240 Because it'll guide our boundaries better. 710 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:04,680 Yeah, that's really true. 711 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:05,640 I'm glad you said that. 712 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,560 Because there is also a lot of consideration 713 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,360 that goes into like, am I like I want 714 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,600 to support this family member and I also 715 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,400 want to support and help my child. 716 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,320 And so but like which version of my child 717 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,480 am I trying to support right now? 718 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,640 Is it the one right here right now that is struggling 719 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,880 with having contact or is it the one that's 720 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,400 10 years down the road they're going to ask all these 721 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,040 questions, why didn't you do more? 722 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,320 And so there is a lot of thinking about the future 723 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,760 and that should be considered too. 724 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,880 Because if we just do what we're comfortable with now, 725 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,520 then we're not stretching. 726 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,440 I think getting outside our comfort zones a little bit 727 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,360 is just going to be inherent in these relationships 728 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,160 that you don't have control over. 729 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,280 You are there to help and support and love them 730 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,080 and welcome them in. 731 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,920 My goodness, I think that is the best note we could leave on. 732 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,560 I love that perspective of thinking down the road. 733 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,120 All right, Alisha, thank you so much for being here. 734 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:17,720 Yes, I'll always love talking to you. 735 00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:20,720 Thank you. 736 00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:28,680 I feel like discussions about boundaries are so important, 737 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,000 but actually acting on these discussions and these points 738 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,040 that we talk about can be really challenging. 739 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,200 I know for you and me, it's hard, right, Shana? 740 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:40,600 Yeah, I mean, we love our kids' birth parents a ton. 741 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,600 There's this balance that we have between the love 742 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:48,600 that we show and also communicating really clearly 743 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,200 things that are hard for us, right? 744 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,640 And so in any relationship, communication 745 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,080 can be difficult when it's something 746 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:03,240 that we know might cause somebody to be sad or frustrated 747 00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:04,200 about a situation. 748 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,040 But it's really important for us to communicate 749 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:12,920 when there are issues or when there are things that ultimately 750 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,680 affect the experience of our children. 751 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,440 Yes, and I think that's the most important thing 752 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:19,960 to remember in these conversations, 753 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,560 to keep it child-centric, to keep it focused 754 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,080 on the well-being of the adoptee. 755 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:31,680 Because I mean, there are so many things that you can say, 756 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,560 oh, yeah, I feel like boundary discussions can get taken 757 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,480 too extreme very easily. 758 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,640 And as adoptive parents, it's pretty easy, I think, 759 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:46,200 for us to say, oh, yeah, this might be affecting my zen, 760 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:47,520 or I don't know, right? 761 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:53,280 Like, it's important to keep the focus on why boundaries matter. 762 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:54,320 And it's not about us. 763 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:55,440 It's about our kids. 764 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,840 Yeah, it can be difficult sometimes 765 00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,560 to have the conversations that we need to. 766 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,760 But we need to do it for the sake of our children. 767 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:06,040 For example, if there's a birth parent who communicates 768 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:11,760 to one of their child that they're going to come visit, 769 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:16,000 and then they don't show, that can really 770 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,240 affect the child, right? 771 00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:20,040 And so maybe we just set this boundary 772 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,840 and say, whenever we talk about setting up visits, 773 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,720 let's just make sure it happens between us as parents, 774 00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:30,600 and that our kids don't know. 775 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,520 And we'll just make it a surprise. 776 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,920 Because maybe there are times where other things come up 777 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:38,560 for you, and you're not able to make it, 778 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,320 but you've already communicated to this child 779 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,160 that you can make it, right? 780 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,680 So that's an example of keeping the children centered 781 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,640 around this boundary that we're creating. 782 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,520 Well, and I think that it's also important to recognize 783 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:53,920 that boundaries can change, right? 784 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:54,480 For sure. 785 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,880 And so, yeah, maybe you have a birth parent who is struggling 786 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,000 with something right now, and so there's 787 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:06,480 some boundaries in place to keep things positive for adoptees. 788 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,960 And then they get to a place where that's not a struggle 789 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,000 now, and those boundaries are needed, right? 790 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,200 And boundaries don't have to stay forever. 791 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:20,880 So, yeah, keep them flexible, right? 792 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:21,920 I don't know. 793 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,680 Keep that conversation open so that you're always 794 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,200 evaluating what is going to be best for your child. 795 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,880 I'm sure this will be part of a lot of future conversations 796 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:33,640 that we continue to have, because it's 797 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,560 an important aspect of open adoption relationships. 798 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,960 But I'm super glad and grateful for this conversation, 799 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:41,960 and I'm walking away with a lot. 800 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,080 Yeah. 801 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,000 So thank you so much for all of our listeners 802 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:46,960 who submit questions to us so that we 803 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,280 can talk about things like this on the podcast. 804 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,680 We are really excited to be jumping into some interviews 805 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,160 in the next few episodes. 806 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,080 We've been getting those ready and are so looking forward 807 00:38:58,080 --> 00:38:59,040 to sharing them with you. 808 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,280 Yeah, so we should have some episodes coming out 809 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,200 pretty consistently every other week for the next several weeks. 810 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,840 And yeah, there are some really great people 811 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,240 that you'll hear from. 812 00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:11,120 All right, well, thank you so much for listening 813 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:12,440 and for being here with us. 814 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:30,400 I'm Shaun, and I'll see you next time. 815 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,440 Thanks for listening. 816 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:33,520 Bye bye. 817 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:34,520 Bye. 818 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:35,520 Bye. 819 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:36,520 Bye. 820 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:37,520 Bye. 821 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:38,520 Bye. 822 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:39,520 Bye. 823 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:40,520 Bye. 824 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:41,520 Bye.