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Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 102. We're the Nelsons. I'm Lanette.

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And I'm Shaun. In this episode, Aliisha Gallagher, who is our communications director here at Open

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Adoption Project, will be interviewing Christelle from episode 88. This is a kind of a follow-up

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episode to an interview that Alicia did for us several months ago now, and we had a lot of just

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follow-up questions for her and we're just curious about more aspects of her experience. So Alicia

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meets with Christelle in this episode and asks a lot of really kind of the tough questions about

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being an international transracial adoptee. So Christelle, it's so nice to have you back on

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the podcast. Oh, thank you for having me back. I'm excited. Yeah, we talked about a lot of great

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topics last year and there was just so much that we loved and wanted to follow up on because there

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was just wasn't enough time to cover everything. So before our listeners who are meeting you for

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the first time, can you tell us a little bit about you, a little bit about your adoption story?

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Sure. Well, I'm Christelle Palick here. I am a coach and I specialize in supporting

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Black adult adoptees, helping them navigating their adoption story and their own identity.

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But I'm also a podcast host and a host of Black adoptees' identities and I interview

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Black adoptees about their own experience of their own adoption story. On the side,

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when I have time, I'm also a multidisciplinary artist. So I do work around film, fashion

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and writing. So that's me currently who I am. My adoption story started in Madagascar

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where I was born. My mother was very sick. So she ended up going to hospital and she left me

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in the village in the Catholic missionary at the time. I am not very sure if that was a temporary

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arrangement, but things got worse and my mother passed away in hospital. And the next thing

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I was put into an orphanage and then put for adoption in France at the age of 10. So into a

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white family. So I'm a transracial adoptee. So trying to navigate all different cultures,

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different languages while growing up in a tiny village in South of France where there was nobody

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who looked like me. So that's kind of some of the challenges that I encountered with my adoption

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story. Yeah. And that's exactly what we want to talk about. Just those tough questions that white

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parents who are considering adopting or fostering black or brown children might encounter. I think

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there's a lot of worry around, I mean, first of all, there's more awareness, I think around identity

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and the importance of it. And now all of the issues are being brought to the forefront of how little

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education has been done and how much more needs to be done so that those mistakes from the past

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aren't repeated. So I encourage listeners to go back and listen to our first episode with Christelle,

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but we'll just dive into a few follow-up questions that we had about your experience.

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I'm wondering if you can paint the picture for us of what it was like in your home in Madagascar

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and then moving to France, like the big differences that you noticed, I'm sure the culture shock that

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you experienced, just what everything looked like and sounded like. Can you just paint that picture

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to get us in the mindset of what it might be like for a young child? Yes, of course. I mean, for me,

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it was like day and night. Everything was so different in Madagascar. I lived by the sea,

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you know, it's that kind of careless childhood, running around by the sea all the time with my

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friends. And I lived in a very tiny village, fishing village. So that's kind of what my

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childhood, my memory of my childhood is about, playing on the beach, living with my mother

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in the village. But also in terms of, you know, everyday life, everything was, it was more bad,

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you know, even like the food, it's, everything is based on rice and cow meat and a lot of fruit,

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like mango fruit and lychee and, you know, some, a lot of those things doesn't even exist in France.

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So that's in itself as a very big culture shock and the language was very different, although in

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Madagascar, the administrative language was French, but in the village where I was living,

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because it's very small, hardly anybody speaking French on a daily basis. If they had to go into

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the big city and deal with paperwork, then they would speak French, but on a daily basis, I wasn't

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speaking French. So I had to learn the language. And actually, when I was put into the missionary,

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the Catholic missionary, I was not allowed to even speak my own language anymore. Once I got there,

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I was told I had to speak French, so I had to learn. And my French wasn't very good at the time,

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so I had to start learning French on a daily basis from that time. And when I got to the

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orphanage, I was going to a French school. So very quickly, I actually lost my language.

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And also, I think one important thing that was very different for me is in terms of,

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because I was put into the Catholic missionary, it was very much based on religion.

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Prior to that, a lot of the things that I have learned was about African spirituality. So my

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grandparents would be dealing with everything around plant medicine, for example. So I've never

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learned about medication until I got to France. So things like that is very different in itself.

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So yeah, getting to France was a real culture shock, because even if I started learning French,

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I didn't actually understand very much by the time I got to France. And I also felt stuck because I

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was already been forbidden to speak my own language. So at that point, I couldn't even

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speak my own language, because I think that was part of the trauma. My brain just shut down

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about my own language. And yeah, I mean, I was surrounded living in a culture where I would see

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black people every time. And actually, I've never questioned why we're all just black in Madagascar.

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Actually, in Madagascar, I think it was more when we see French people in Madagascar. And those

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also, I mean, my adoption is very complex, because Madagascar was not independent from the French

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until 1960. And I was adopted in the 80s. So it's 20 years difference. So that period

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was very complex in the history of between France and Madagascar. And that's partly why

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the missionary Catholic were in France, because they were trying to educate the local people.

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So for me, white people was, I didn't see many white people growing up in Madagascar,

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just the random missionary in the village, and sometimes people coming to tourists visiting

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in the seaside village. So going into a mansion where majority of people were white, that was also

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quite a culture shock. But because suddenly it was a reverse situation, I was the minority,

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I didn't see anybody who looked like me around. And that's automatically, I think, questioned like,

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oh, it's the first time I think I realized I was black in a way, I was different to everybody else,

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I guess. Yeah.

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Well, the trauma of losing your language and the food and the sites and everything that made

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you who you were and what was home and then instantly put into a place that is completely

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different. I wonder if you could describe the home environment that you went into. So obviously,

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like you mentioned, your parents were white, did you have siblings that were already living there?

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And just what it was like to step into a new household?

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Yeah, so my adoptive parents were also foster parents. So the house was, there's lots of

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children. So they had two of their own biological children. And then they had, at the time,

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it varied, but I would say the average was about four, six children from foster services around

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the house. So it was always a very busy house. And I also had my mother's parents leaving

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down stuff from us. So it was a very busy house. That's a lot of people. Did you know,

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were you expecting that? Like, was it explained to you that it's going to be like, it's a house

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full of people and you're getting right into this whole ecosystem? Well, I got some pictures.

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The picture only showed my adoptive parents and their two biological children in the picture. So

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I wasn't expecting anybody else around. But also, even when I got the picture, I didn't understand

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what the meaning of all this. I didn't understand what adoption was. I didn't understand why I was

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going into this place. And for me, I think at the time when I was told, I didn't even realize how

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far it was from my own country. I didn't, you know, I've got no idea as a child, not having left my

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village, how what that is only when I was in the plane and it was taking forever, I guess being on

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the plane, I think it was like 30 hours journey. So that's only when, you know, even going to the

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airport, that was a culture shock because our tradition in Madagascar, that girl always wear

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a dress or a skirt and trousers is reserved for boys or men. And they put me into this tracksuit

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traveling in the plane. Oh, wow. And even that I couldn't compute. I didn't understand why am I

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wearing trousers? It's boys wear trousers. And even that it's just little things, but

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it was very difficult for me to understand because it wasn't something I was taught about. I wasn't

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taught about like, are we going into this very different culture? Things are going to be very

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different. I can't remember anybody telling me that all I can remember is this big show of this

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family. But yeah, it didn't really compute in the plane. What's happening? Well, that's interesting

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because I think we talk a lot about adoption education for adoptive parents, but with

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older kids who were getting adopted, is there like educating the child who's about to be adopted

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about where they're going and being sensitive to the loss that they're experiencing.

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Of course, there are a lot of infant adoptions and there's not as much explanation that can happen,

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but there's probably just as much adoption happening for older kids that the education

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just isn't happening. Yeah. And I think the other in my household in France, what's I found difficult

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was because my parents, because I was adopted for the public missionaries, so my family was very

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Catholic. And when I say very Catholic, I still are very Catholic today. And it was praying every day.

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And that is something I never did. Like I said, my family was more into African spirituality,

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so it wasn't something that I was even educated about what Catholicism was. And it's things like

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having to go confess to someone. I couldn't understand why I had to go. Just for me,

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it was reiterating things like I have done something bad that I have to go confess to someone else.

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And that's, I think, has impacted the way of life as I was growing up, because I always have that

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guilt and shame having to go confess because I've done something wrong. That has been, I think,

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quite difficult to understand. But yeah, the family was loving. I had a lot of love,

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but I think it's just a culture shock and not being prepared about what I was going into.

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And I think my family were not prepared either. I think there is this idea about wanting to have

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a child. I think in the 80s and now, I think why people adopt might be very different. And

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I even think when I speak to my parents now, I think they're more apologetic about,

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you know, they wanted to provide a good home for a child, but they were not prepared about all the

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emotional side of the adoption. And also, they were not educated about what trauma I might have

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before coming to them. And I had a lot of trauma in itself because my mother passed away before I was

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even nine. And I didn't have any support or time to grieve about that. So, you know, there's things

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like an early drought when I was five or six. And that's, you know, even to this day, I love water,

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but I'm very scared of water at the same time. So there's things that, from my own history,

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that my parents were not even aware. So even, you know, like they had the swimming pool,

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they couldn't understand, for example, that, you know, who didn't want to go swimming.

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So it's just little things that, you know, things that have happened in my past that my

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parents didn't know. And I'm not prepared for. And I couldn't explain to them either why I didn't

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want to go swimming. You know, internally I felt a fear, but I couldn't tell them, oh, this is the

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reason why at the time it didn't compute that, oh, I nearly drowned when I was this age. And that's

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why I was scared. You know, at that age, it didn't make the connection. So I couldn't even,

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you know, verbalize it to them. Right. Well, you're probably in survival mode. You're just

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processing all the new things that are happening in front of you. And you don't have to ponder

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on the thing from the past that might be impacting the now, because there's so much happening at the

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same time. Did you feel like it was, like, was there open communication between you and your

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parents about adoption? Were there conversations where they would talk about, you know, how they

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came to the decision of adoption and intentionally trying to help you feel part of the family, even

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though everything is new? Like, what was the communication like about your adoption? We

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didn't really have any communication about the adoption. And I think the environment where we

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were, because there's so many of us in the house, you know, my parents are constantly trying to

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raise those other children at the time. I don't think they had the time. On top of that, my dad

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was also working in his day job. So it wasn't, I don't think there's a space to be able to

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talk about it. But also, I don't know, I think there was maybe some preconceptions from them

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that because they've had foster children for such a long time, you'll be the same from an adopted

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child. But actually, sometimes it wasn't the same because most of the foster kids would go weekend

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to see their family or from time to time. I didn't have any of that. I, you know, as you know,

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adoption is a complete severance from your family. So in that sense, that separation is harder

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to accept, I suppose. But yeah, no, we never, and even now, you know, in the last few years,

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we started to talk about it because I needed to know things about why they adopted and, you know,

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why they were not taking much more interest about my culture. And, you know, I mean, at the beginning

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when I was adopted, and also have a sister who has been adopted from Madagascar, but we know blood

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related. And at the beginning when I was adopted, the agency from where they adopted us would have

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like a yearly reunion. So all the children that's been adopted through that agency,

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that agency would meet. And actually, the majority of them would have been from Madagascar,

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Ivory Coast, or India. So it was the one only dealing with international adoption. So at the

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beginning, I would see some of the people that were adopted at the same time as me, so there was that

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connection. But I left France when I was 18. I moved to the UK, because I just felt that I couldn't,

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I wasn't fitting in that environment. And I needed to, I don't know, I needed to just do something

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different. So I went to study in the UK when I left when I was 18. So I suppose that's kind of,

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I only spent eight years in France, although I still got the accent, which I can't get rid of.

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So yeah, that's part of the assimilation of being assimilated to a language at early age and being

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forced to learn that language has been so imprinted in my DMA.

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Yes. So I'm moving to the UK. I remember previously you talking about feeling like there are people

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like me here, and there's just more ability to freely express who you are and different, just

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more variety than you experienced in your home and in your neighborhood growing up.

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And growing up, so you had black siblings and white siblings, is that right?

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What was that like? Like, did that feel significant to you? Because I feel like

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perception is such a big thing. Everybody is paying attention to everybody else. And

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some parents might feel self-conscious, they're out in public. And my family doesn't look exactly

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the same as all the other families, because we have kids of different races. And you also describe

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growing up in a place that you were one of the only black children in the area, right?

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And so, does that feel significant? You're going out in public as a family and are you

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grappling with, our family doesn't look exactly like all of these other families out here.

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Yeah, I think it was all the time. I think my family were okay with it because

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they're the one making the decision to adopt children from a different country.

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And like I mentioned, I think at the time through the church there was a lot of, you know, the

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white savior behavior, kind of, I'm saving a child from their environment. So it was kind of,

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you know, I would see people would be like, oh, congratulations, well done for saving this child

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life kind of things, but it would automatically will be visible because you're not the same color.

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So people would see I am not a biological child. I think at school, even children didn't understand

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it because every time I would say, oh, this is my mom or this is my dad or this is my sister,

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people would be like, you could see on their face that they couldn't understand what I'm talking

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about. And I had that even in my teenage year. That's such a good point because when someone

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meets you, people are sort of filling in the, oh, this is what your family must look like. And then

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they meet you with your family. And all of a sudden it's almost like the hard thing you've

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experienced in life. It's constantly there. Like people kind of see that by nature of you

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being with a family that doesn't look like you, something hard has happened in your life. And so

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I'm sure the wheels are turning and like there's curiosity, but people don't want to overstep.

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Like, did you feel people try to grapple with that? Yeah, absolutely. And I think, like I said,

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even in my teenage year, I mean, I had my mother's brother is about the same age as my sister,

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which is my parents' biological daughter. So when I used to go out when I was 18, I'm going,

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he was probably in his mid twenties. And I would say, oh, that's my uncle. And I think people get

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so surprised because I think they couldn't understand the age gap, but also the color

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didn't match. So it was very interesting. And even, I think even when I was, I had my daughters,

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I had my daughter very young. And I remember traveling with my cousin. So obviously he's a

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white, he's a white male. And we have the same surname because I took over my adoptive parents

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surname. So my daughter is look like me. My cousin doesn't look like me, but we've got the same name

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and my daughter doesn't have the same surname because she's got a bad surname.

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And it was almost like people thought that I stole that child because, you know,

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they thought I was traveling with my husband's first of all, you know, all this assumption that

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we've got the same surname, that must be my husband and this child. So I had to always travel with so

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much paperwork to a letter from my daughter's dad to say she was allowed to travel because the French

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are so mad with that paperwork. And it's, yeah, it was really crazy because I always have to

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prove at times that who I was traveling with my family member, like my husband or whoever.

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And that was really awkward at the time. Yeah. It's, it's always, it's just always present where

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maybe some adoptees can hide it or bury it and not have to talk about it. Even travel logistics,

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that you're, you're, you're having to process it constantly. It's a very present part of your life.

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What about like hair care, skincare? I know that if, for parents who are not black,

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raising black children, hair care is so important. And, you know, taking care of skin is so important.

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And it's, it takes learning to figure out how to do it. And unless you, unless you grew up doing it.

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So what was, what was that like going from Madagascar, you're surrounded with people who can

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help you care for your hair. And then you're with white parents who, like, did they know, were they,

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were they ready for taking, like helping you with your, with your hair?

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Yeah. I don't think my mother was ready. And I think it's harder for a child who's older,

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because you don't have even the time to adjust yourself, at least when the baby has got time

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to learn the changes. But when a child is already older and have the hair already in a certain way,

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I think it's harder. And my mother was very good with the skincare. I would give that to her because

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I, you know, she was always moisturized, moisturized. She was very big on that. And I think

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she was very big on that. So I didn't really struggle with the skincare. But I, yeah, I've

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gone through so many different things with my hair. I had a period where I was straightened

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a day because again, everybody around me had straight hair. And so I wanted to look like

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everybody because I didn't want to stand out. So I would go through straightening and burning

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my scalp. And yeah, those are painful moments. And, you know, even like going to the village

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of Dressa and she would do perm on my hair because she wouldn't know anything else.

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Oh my gosh. Yeah.

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Yeah. The experimentation of all the different things that I've tried, it was interesting. Until

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I managed to find, and I don't know, I can't remember at the time if I found it or if my

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mother found it, a black hairdresser in a couple of city bellow away from where we lived,

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who would braid my hair. And I think that saved my life. Finding them because, and then I would

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go with like the whole day, sat in this dresser for someone to braid my hair. But at least I was

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okay for a few weeks. And I knew that there were not that far away I could go back again. But

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I think the first five years was just experimentation.

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Yeah. That is, and at the time there's not YouTube tutorials and things like that where

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she could sort of teach herself. So that's good that that experience happened. Did she stay with

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you? Because braiding takes a long time. Would she sit in there with you or like drop you off?

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Yeah, she would drop me off and come back later on. And I think she was lucky with my sister

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because my sister, the one I mentioned from Madagascar, she came, she years after me.

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And my sister in a way she was lucky in that sense because Madagascar is a very diverse

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community. So a lot of people look Malaysian because Malagasy, Malay, it's from the same

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origin. So a lot of South Asian people move to Madagascar. And so it's a mix of Indonesian,

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Malaysian and Africans in the islands. So my sister is more from the Asian side. So her hair

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is very curly. It's a lot straighter than mine. So she didn't have to go through all the struggle

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I had with my hair. So yeah, she was a lot more, she could identify with a lot more,

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she could have a white hair really in that sense. So she didn't have to go through. She hardly had

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her hair braided actually. So she didn't have to go through that.

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Yeah. Well, that's very interesting. And then you go to the UK and were there more options

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that then at least and between you doing yourself or at least being able to find somebody to do it

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for you? Yeah, no, absolutely. The UK was, I mean, it's interesting because I could see the

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diversity, but at the same time, it was hard to adjust because I've then been raised into this

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white environment. And then I go to the UK. And it's also a very different culture because in

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the UK, it's a lot of Caribbean people. So it's, I was then surrounded by people with, again,

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very different culture from African and Caribbean are very different. So I, although I could,

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I was happy to be in the middle of people who look like me. It was still a struggle because

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I didn't feel like I was fitting in because I didn't understand or know about their own culture.

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So that was, again, another learning point and having to learn to be black in a way.

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Yeah. And yeah, I mean, even today, even like when I went back to Madagascar in 2010,

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I could see that I was so Westernized and the way they could spot from miles away that I wasn't

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living on the islands because they knew I was a tourist. So things like that, it's, he knows

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that, you know, he haven't been in this island for this long. And even though you've got the color,

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some part of you is no longer what other people in the islands live every day. So it's, again,

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another learning point. And yeah, you have to adjust all the time. And I think that's that the

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issue, one issue adopters has to do because no matter where you go, and I think that's where

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the belonging issue come from, because we never know where we fit in or where we belong,

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because we have to constantly adapt to situation. So it's very difficult to really

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feel at home in a way. And, you know, when people ask me why is home? Yeah, I always say France,

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but you know, it's, I only lived for eight years. Yeah, interesting answer, because

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I think people ask me, Oh, would you move back to France now? I'd say no.

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It's really interesting. I think at heart, I'm definitely, you know, Africa feels home, but

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in terms of practicality, I don't really know where I would say home, because I've moved around

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so much in Europe. So yeah, it's an interesting question. Yeah, because something as simple as

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basically get to know you question, where are you from? You're not about to unload

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well, this is where I grew up. And then I was adopted here because, but they are both home.

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And so the conflict of just answering such a simple question is not something that everybody

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has to deal with, but trans, but international adoptees are dealing with it constantly.

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Yeah. Yeah. I still don't know the answer.

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Yeah. And I think, you know, it's, it's interesting because having a daughter now,

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she can feel some of the, those nuances, because she, I've moved so much in my life that she also

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doesn't feel like the specific place. I mean, she lived most of her life in the UK.

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There was moved so much in the UK as well at that time, that's why I'm so happy to be here.

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UK as well at that time that she doesn't even feel like she has a specific place she could call

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home. And that has been, for me, it was a bit sad to know that because we are so devoted, you know,

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uprooted for so many times in our life that I think subconsciously that's why I've moved.

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I continue to move a lot in my life because still looking for that place where I'm going to feel I

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belong. And I don't know if people ever find it. But yes. It sounds like it's a, it's a place that

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you have to create instead of a place that's made for you because like Madagascar is home because

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you were born there and then another home is chosen for you. You didn't get to choose France.

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And then, you know, the rest of your adulthood is where, where am I choosing to be? And it's a lot

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of exploration because you've lived to the range of the feeling very comfortable to feeling very

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uncomfortable. Yeah. And I think I stayed in the UK the longest only because my daughter was born

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there and I didn't want to move out of the place she was born because I went for that. And it's an

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interesting thing to think about now because it's not automatically a place I would say, if you ask

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me, or would you live in the UK this long? I'll be like, no way, but this is the place I live the most.

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But because of the experience I've had before, so that's kind of impacted how

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I couldn't see myself moving my daughter away from her dad and live from a different country

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until she was old enough to live by herself. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, let's talk a little

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bit about your coaching experience. So you help adopt these, I guess you should explain it. You

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explained it at the beginning, but I won't put words in your mouth of like me attempting to explain

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it because you say it so beautifully. Yeah. So the supporting is really around how they deal

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with their adoption journey and their own identity. So I do, even before coaching, I was doing a lot

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of work around identity and I focus on black adoptees because a lot of the work I did before

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I came into coaching was working with the Caribbean and African communities. So I felt that

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I had that lived experience and I could support people in terms of their identity in that area.

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So with the adoptees, it's really looking, because sometimes we are stuck in our adoption story

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and we use that as who we are, but actually we don't have to be having that whatever that story

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was imposed on us. So it's trying to support those adoptees to form their own identity. And that

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could be, you know, the adoption story could still be a big part of their identity, but if that is

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keeping them stuck, then they need to find ways to accept the situation and then build a new

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identity of who they really want to be in the future. So it's supporting them in that process

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and how they can move from where they are now and who they want to be in the future. So that's kind

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of the journey I take them for. That's such important work to have someone like you who's

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experienced it and can offer perspective and then help them make something new. And with the

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art and the fashion design that you do, I'm sure that does that come into it at all of like,

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of using art in your coaching? I've not chosen so much in the coaching, but I'm doing a retreat. So

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that's something I want to bring in. So I've done a lot of exhibition around African history. So I

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am bringing those into my retreat. So I'm bringing the exhibition that I did a few years ago on

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African queens to the retreat for the women to identify and then do a workshop around that. So

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for them to explore their own heritage and see if there is anything in their heritage that they

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would like to explore further. So for example, if they came from Africa and there is an African,

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historical African queen they want to learn more about, then they can do some research and do,

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and we do some sharing about each one's heritage. So I am trying to bring it. And also the film,

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my dream is really to, part of this going back to Madagascar with my daughter and document

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my adoption story. So I wanted to do that with a film at some point. So hopefully that will happen

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next time I go back to Madagascar. But I also want to do like a short documentary about people being

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displaced from their own country and how that impact their identity.

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That's amazing. We are here to support all of it. Cause it just, that sounds like that's such

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important work to see represented. I'm sure it would be very healing for an adoptee who's experienced

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this displacement and not being able to find home to see someone else's journey. I'm not alone in

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all of this. Someone else is feeling the way that I'm feeling and representing it in a considerate

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way. So with your coaching, what would you say is at the heart of the hopes or the desires of the

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adoptees that you coach? Like if you had to summarize the experiences you've had talking

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with them and just fill in the blank of like, like they just wish or they just want blank.

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Like what's the thing that, that they're missing that they really long for?

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I think it's that sense of belonging and knowing who they are. So yeah, like I say, a lot of the

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work I do is around identity. So it's, it's come back again, who they are. And sometimes

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because of how complex adoption is, it can't really know your history. So that is where a lot

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of the work I do is about, okay, so you are where we are now. Who do you want to be? Even if you

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don't know your past, who do you want to be moving forward? What type of work do you want to do? Which

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area, what makes you happy? I think sometimes it's also about little things like self care.

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I think a lot of adoptees don't always have that into place. And they, you know, they've put

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everybody else before them and they get to a place where they don't know who they are anymore, because

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you know, they're the last person they think about. So starting with little things like self care and

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getting a routine, giving tools about how they can take care of themselves to be able to move

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forward to the person that wants to be that identity that they want to become moving forwards.

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What kind of communication do most of the adoptees you coach have with their parents? Like,

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would you say most of them grew up not really talking about or processing their adoption,

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or some of them did, and they're still grappling with it? Like, are there any

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themes that you notice from that? I think there's a mixture, definitely.

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I think people will come into, I mean, there's a fine line between therapy and coaching. And I

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think I mentioned that last time, so I don't do any therapy work. So I would say that therapy

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will look at all the trauma side of what they've been through in the past. And very often, I think,

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if someone is not processed that part of their trauma, I kind of support them just with the

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coaching. So I would recommend them to work with a therapist first, and then when they're ready,

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they can come back to me and work on where they want to go. But a lot of the PR, I think a lot of

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the adoptees, when they come to coaching, it's because they either don't have the connection of

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their adoptive parents, so they're feeling a bit stuck and lost, and definitely don't have the

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connection with their birth parents either. Or some of them have had reunions, but actually the

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reunions didn't work out very well. So they're still feeling like they're isolated and don't

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have anywhere to turn to. So it's a mixture, but I would say the majority is people not knowing

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where they are at, where they are, and they don't have the support in their immediate environment.

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Is there, I guess what would be your advice to parents adopting black children of acknowledging

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differences, but also not overdoing it? Because there's like, I would imagine there's kind of

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this balance between you, you're part of our family, we love you, we don't want to talk about

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how we are different from each other all the time. But we also don't want to wait until you're

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grappling with some really tough issues, and then you feel like you can't bring it up because

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we've never talked about it before. Do you have any advice on that? Yeah, I think it's about

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communication and being open with the child and allow the child to lead, because I think the child,

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each child is different. Some will be ready very early on, some won't be ready. So allowing the

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child to let you know when they're ready, so when they're ready, open up a little bit more and

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support the child to explore. But I think from early on, as soon as they can start talking with

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the child about their bad ones is better, because that will give the child time to process it.

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I would also say that the parents should educate themselves no matter how much the child is ready

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to know, because you don't want to wait until the child is ready then to find out this information.

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At least you are prepared when the time is coming for you to provide that. And I think also if there

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is, you know, I'm thinking about like in the way I was raised, I didn't really have anything around

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the house reminding me of my culture. And I think if I had things around the house that reminded me

378
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:33,680
of this, then I would be asking questions a lot more to my parents about, oh, why have you got

379
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:40,080
this? What does this represent? But because I didn't have anything around, I didn't feel like I

380
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:48,720
could even open up the conversation about that. So I think having things to make this conversation

381
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:58,960
easier with the child is also useful. Even, you know, books. I mean, even I remember, I mean,

382
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:07,280
with my daughter, even though she's not adopted, I had to make that specific effort, because

383
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:13,760
I think for a child of an adoptee is very difficult as well, because they still feel

384
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:20,160
the repercussion of their parents being adopted. So I had to make the specific choices that,

385
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:27,520
you know, I had books about Madagascar when she was a baby. And, you know, she's a lot more

386
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:32,400
interested about learning about Madagascar than she's learning about France, for example. So,

387
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:41,040
and, you know, she's really keen about finding out even about the tradition in Madagascar,

388
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:46,560
who my parents were, what they were like. And she's got a lot of curiosity about that. And

389
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:52,080
when I look at her, I'm like, oh, these are the things that I wish I had as an adoptee,

390
00:44:52,720 --> 00:44:59,120
to be able to have all this curiosity and, you know, being able to ask questions, even if they

391
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:05,840
didn't have the answer, but I didn't feel like I had the space or anything to prompt me to ask

392
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:13,520
those questions. That is very interesting. I think that's such a good point, because as I'm a foster

393
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:22,400
parent, and I feel like it's all on me to ask the right question in the right moment. If one of the

394
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:29,760
kids is missing a biological family member, that it's all on me to respond appropriately, but it

395
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:36,880
feels a lot more organic to also just have reminders around. So if they are curious,

396
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:45,760
then like, oh, here's a picture and it sparked a memory or adoption books or foster care books,

397
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:52,560
like using those as prompts. I like how you said that, to prompt them instead of trying to analyze

398
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:58,320
every situation exactly right, and then hoping that you have a good enough question to ask to

399
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:04,480
help them feel safe. Yeah, I think nowadays, like you mentioned earlier, that we've got the internet,

400
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:09,760
we've got so much more resources nowadays that I don't think there's any excuse not to know.

401
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:16,800
And all you have to do is just Google something and you can, you know, you can print out a drawing

402
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:24,400
for a child to color in, you know, about the culture. It doesn't need to be a big thing, but

403
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:31,040
just, you know, to wake up the child curiosity, take them to a museum. If they're from a different

404
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:37,040
culture and there is an exhibition about that culture, take them there. And that would prompt

405
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:43,200
again some question and for both of them to, you know, the child and the parents to learn at the

406
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:50,160
same time as well. And that is kind of, you know, closing the bond as well at the same time. So

407
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:58,560
that's important. Yeah, I think the openness around adoption communication has also changed a lot

408
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:04,480
because when, I mean, you've described and there wasn't a lot of communication happening within

409
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:11,120
your family. And I think at the time when though, when adoptions were happening, then it was not as

410
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:17,440
open. I'm sure there was a lot of like, maybe don't have a lot of reminders of home around,

411
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:26,320
because maybe your child will see it and it will have a negative effect on them. They'll get sad

412
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:33,360
instead of feeling like my parents care about where I came from and it reminds me of home. So

413
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:39,760
there's this like, they want to put a lid on the emotional processing, but now I think that lid's

414
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:45,200
being taken off where we want to live with the reality a little bit more and be sensitive to how

415
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:53,200
we talk about it. Yeah. I think you also help when the child is ready to find out a bit more about

416
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:59,200
the past because, or if something else happened, because nowadays we've got the internet, like I

417
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:05,840
say, it's a lot different, you know, people are finding out their relatives on Facebook, like

418
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:12,720
never before. So, you know, if you don't talk about that and one day the child said, I found my sister

419
00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:20,960
or whatever online. I mean, even for me, I didn't even have the internet, but my step sister from

420
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:28,560
Madagascar, I got a letter at around 1415 for my sister saying, here I am, I am your sister. And

421
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:35,280
my adoption was supposed to be a closed adoption. My parents didn't know how she found my address.

422
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:42,560
So it was, I don't think my parents were prepared either how to deal with that.

423
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:50,640
And I felt stuck as well, because part of me wanting to know her, but part of me, my family

424
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:56,720
is saying, oh, be careful, you don't know who this is. So it's kind of having, be prepared

425
00:48:56,720 --> 00:49:01,280
the day that something like that might happen. How are you going to react to this? How are you

426
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:08,400
going to support the child moving forward? I think it's important to, and all this preparation

427
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:17,360
before that could help to come to that moment. Yeah, I agree. Is there anything else that you

428
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:22,960
would want to bring up regarding international adoption, transracial adoption, anything that

429
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:30,160
came to mind we haven't talked about yet? Well, it's, I don't, I mean, I don't know in the US,

430
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:38,000
but in Europe, international adoption is being stopped more and more. So I don't know if it's

431
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:47,360
the case in the US, but in, for example, in France, they stopped international adoption back in October

432
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:55,040
last year. So, and it's the same for Ivory Coast, Mali, Ethiopia stopped about eight years ago.

433
00:49:55,040 --> 00:50:05,120
So there's more and more, a lot of countries will stop it because there's a lot of issues behind it.

434
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:14,000
Oh, like human trafficking concerns. Yes, exactly. I mean, in France, last year, there's a big scandal

435
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:21,680
for an adoption agency because all the adopters from Mali came together and realized that actually

436
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:28,320
the adoption was not as legal as it seems to be because they found their birth family and the

437
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:33,120
birth family have said they never agreed for the adoption. So their family are still in Mali and

438
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:43,600
alive. And, you know, as Aima have said, we're putting our child for you to support us. We come

439
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:50,000
back to get the child, but the child will never come back. And I am not sure for mine,

440
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,400
because my, I found out last year that my adoption took place within three months.

441
00:50:54,960 --> 00:51:01,440
And that is very initial for an international adoption to be so quick. So part of the reason

442
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:08,000
I'm asking my parents a lot of questions at the moment is who signed my adoption? And I've been

443
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:14,480
told by my half sister who contacted me when I was 14, that it was my father, but it's very strange

444
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:18,800
because I never knew who my father was. And my mother never told me who my father was.

445
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:25,120
So I don't know who signed this adoption paper, but apparently someone signed it and my mother

446
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:30,560
wasn't around. So there's a lot of question around international adoption. And like I say,

447
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:38,480
I don't know in the U S but in Europe, there's been a lot of the adopters, adult adopters are

448
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:44,720
coming together and making lots of noises and wanting international adoption to be stopped.

449
00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:50,400
International adoption to be stopped. Very interesting. Yeah. I'm not sure. I'm not aware

450
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:56,480
what's happening in the U S regarding that, but very interested to read more about it because

451
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:03,920
the, you know, Europe and UK, all the countries are a lot closer together. So it can kind of

452
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:11,040
like a ripple effect, whereas I'm not totally sure in the U S yet. That's very interesting though.

453
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:21,120
Yeah. So what's the space? Well, I'm really interested to hear how your, like, how your

454
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:28,000
journey goes to hopefully go back to Madagascar and find out a little bit more. Suddenly the,

455
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:34,400
the idea of a documentary feels more urgent of, of your life, of really finding out what were

456
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:42,080
the circumstances around it. Yeah. And I actually found out recently, which again, when we talk about

457
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:48,800
trauma, you know, my parents didn't know anything about the trauma of my, my birth family, but I

458
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:57,760
found out recently that the tribe I come from, um, went through a genocide, uh, by the French

459
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:05,440
in 1947. So we're talking about not that long ago, but it's, it's not in any history book.

460
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:12,320
And it was taboo for the people in Madagascar to even talk about it because of the trauma that's

461
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:19,120
created. And this is a tribe where I come from. So I know in 1947, that would have been my

462
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:28,960
grandparents generation. So when you talk about generational trauma, you know, I, I won't be

463
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:35,520
surprised if I carry some of those trauma that they carry it because it's only two generations down.

464
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,480
And I don't know how old my mother was at the time, but I would definitely,

465
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,960
and that's also part of the reason I've always believed. And I don't know this for sure, but I

466
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:50,480
always believed when my mother left me in the Catholic missionary, my grandparents never came

467
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:56,640
to see me because the first time my mother went to hospital, she left with my grandparents. So I

468
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:01,840
don't know why she left me at the Catholic missionaries a second time, but my parents,

469
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:06,880
my grandparents never came to visit me at the Catholic missionary. But, you know, if you think

470
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:12,320
about the history, if they went for that genocide, there's no way they're going to come and approach

471
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:20,480
the white missionary and speak to them. So there's a lot of trauma and history behind a lot of the

472
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:25,280
international adoption as well that people take for granted, I think, sometime. Yeah. Well,

473
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:33,600
equally interesting that your, your mom felt like comfortable enough to make that decision for her

474
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:38,880
to approach the missionary. But then your grandparents said, maybe to not feel comfortable

475
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:47,360
doing that, there's a clear difference in that, that dynamic. And you have a biological brother,

476
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:52,080
right? I think you mentioned he passed away in the last several years.

477
00:54:53,200 --> 00:55:02,160
He did. He passed away in 2022. And that was, again, I think that probably, you know, created a lot

478
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:08,640
of emotions that should come out because when I went back in 2010, I didn't see him because he

479
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:14,240
was working in a different city to where we used to live. So I didn't, and also because I don't

480
00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:19,200
speak the language, you know, it's very difficult. This is another thing us as international adoptee

481
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:26,000
have because we don't speak the language anymore. We are relying on a translator and we don't know

482
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:33,840
we are talking to. We haven't been in the country for over 10, 15 years, sometimes 20 years. So

483
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:40,240
whoever you're talking about, you're not sure if that is your biological family. And it's very

484
00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:46,880
common when adoptees return to their country that people have this assumption that because

485
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:53,440
you have been raised in the West, we've got all sorted out. So very often there's people who are

486
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:59,520
cheating the system and come forward to say, I am your family when they're not because I want

487
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:06,720
something from you. So for me, it was very, I couldn't, I didn't really kept the contact

488
00:56:06,720 --> 00:56:12,720
very often because part of the family that I met just wanted money from you, from me. And,

489
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:18,320
and because I didn't see my brother and only speaking to him for the front for a translator,

490
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:26,320
I didn't feel a connection. And that was difficult. But at the same time, when he passed away in 2022,

491
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:32,880
I felt like, oh, that's, I lost my chance to even find out a bit more because he was the only person

492
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:39,440
really I could ask about my mother. So I didn't, yeah, I didn't have, I've lost that now. I mean,

493
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:45,520
he's got a daughter who is now in Germany, but I don't know how much she knows about my mother.

494
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:54,560
So it's, yeah, it's a difficult in a sense because we never know who we are in a sense, really,

495
00:56:54,560 --> 00:57:01,680
because even if you go back and especially in Africa, like paperwork is not always, you know,

496
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:08,080
easy to find as in the West. So there's no guarantee that even if you go back,

497
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:16,160
find people that those people are 100% your biological family. So yeah, it's, it's interesting.

498
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:26,560
So with your brother, he's an older brother. Do you have any ideas why you were placed with the

499
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:34,800
missionaries, but he remained in Madagascar? Was he with your grandparents and just a different,

500
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:40,400
different life? No, it's a different life. I think, you know, in this country, very young,

501
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:45,680
he go out and work, you know, he's older than me, he's probably five years older than me. So

502
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:51,840
I guess by 15, you are going out and work and even your own life in a way, because

503
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:59,520
my mother was a single mother. So she added to, I guess, him as being the oldest had to be out there

504
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:06,160
and work. So, and he was old enough to go to work so he can look after himself in a way, even though,

505
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:11,440
you know, we're thinking about it, he was still a child, but because he was able to go and work,

506
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:18,960
I guess that was good enough for him to stay. And like I say, it was a very strange thing because

507
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:25,360
my whole family was in the village. So for me, that's part of the question I always ask,

508
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:31,120
because when I went back in 2010, my uncle didn't even know what happened to me. He didn't know I

509
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:38,800
was adopted. So this is why I don't understand those things that is missing because

510
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:46,160
the missionary didn't even ask my uncle to look after me or to be put for adoption.

511
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:52,400
But when I speak to my adoptive parents, they were taught that my uncle didn't want to look after me.

512
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:58,960
So there is this still conflicting stories that I keep getting. And I don't see why my uncle would

513
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:07,120
lie to me and say, he didn't know what's happened to me. So it's, yeah, it's difficult for me to

514
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:17,200
swallow that. Sometimes maybe the adoption was not as legal as it could be. But yeah, it's

515
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:22,880
things you have to accept, I suppose, because otherwise they get stuck in that story. And

516
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:29,440
that's what I'm trying to tell my clients that you have to get past that story if you want to move on

517
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:37,680
sometime. Otherwise it just hits you inside and it just becomes very difficult. So yes, there's a lot

518
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:46,880
of acceptance, forgiveness, self-forgiveness involved in the journey and compassion, a lot of

519
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:52,560
self-compassion because you have to accept where you are.

520
00:59:52,560 --> 01:00:02,000
Yeah. And you have to create that yourself. It sounds like in a lot of ways, because no one person

521
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:07,280
could fully understand everything you've experienced. So it takes a lot of intention,

522
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:14,160
I would imagine, to choose a different story or at least a different part and then move forward with it.

523
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:21,120
Yeah, absolutely. And I think no matter what, I don't think anybody or any adopted

524
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:30,880
can know 100% for sure whatever stories I've got is the real or the absolute truth, because there's

525
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:39,840
so many people involved, there's so many documentation might be changed. So it's very difficult to really

526
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:46,960
know for sure whatever you've got is the real story. So at some point, I think everybody has to make,

527
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:55,920
accept whatever they've got is what they have and take what you can take out of that and move on

528
01:00:55,920 --> 01:01:01,440
if you can. I know some people can't, but it's a journey in itself.

529
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:07,200
Yeah. And if they're talking to you, then they're at least trying and they know there's more work

530
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:14,000
they have to do than like you said, having a therapist and a coach to work with the past and

531
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:18,160
then intentionally creating a new future sounds like really important work.

532
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:25,280
Yeah. And I think I'm still, even though I'm doing this work, I was told by my client that I'm also

533
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:33,360
in this process because I never know how the next information I get, how I'm going to react to that.

534
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:43,920
It's always changing. Today I'm okay. But when I found out that my adoption was not working,

535
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:50,080
was not legal, how would I react to that? You know, those are the questions that I don't know

536
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:55,920
until I see the information for sure. And I might have a breakdown. Am I not? I don't know.

537
01:01:55,920 --> 01:02:03,360
Until the moment comes, it's a journey in itself. And I think, yeah, all of us are moving to a

538
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:09,120
different degree every day about learning where we are and how to cope with it.

539
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:17,680
I'm hoping and wishing all the best on your journey. I hope the answers come and that there

540
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:22,080
is, you know, if you find a way to document it, how meaningful it would be. I know that

541
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:29,760
I would love to see the outcome. So long-term projects. Very, very excited about.

542
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:33,600
Thank you. And thank you for having me again.

543
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:39,200
Of course, it's such a pleasure to talk with you. And we talked about a lot of topics,

544
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:43,840
I think international adoption, transracial adoption, you just hear a wealth of information

545
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:47,040
and really appreciate you sharing your life and your insights.

546
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:48,720
Thank you.

547
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:59,680
Thank you so very much for listening to this episode of The Open Adoption Project.

548
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:06,720
And a big thank you to Christelle for sharing your story and teaching and helping us to learn

549
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:12,720
and grow. We are always so grateful for adoptees who share their experiences and perspectives.

550
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:16,720
It really is so impactful and makes a big difference. So big thank you,

551
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:20,160
Christelle. We really appreciate you. And also thank you, Alicia.

552
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:24,800
Yeah, I really liked this episode and there are a lot of things that they dove into,

553
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:30,960
but the one that's kind of just sticking with me is, you know, Christelle has a lot of,

554
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:38,720
still a lot of unanswered questions about her experience. And there's the possibility

555
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:44,000
that she'll never have some of those answers. And for me, yeah, it is really, really hard.

556
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:53,360
And for me, that just makes me like doubly like invested in making sure that I can provide

557
01:03:53,360 --> 01:04:00,800
our children as much information as possible and go the extra mile to uncover or find extra

558
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:05,280
information or more connections so that they will always have that.

559
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:12,000
Absolutely. And sometimes that's not possible, which is hard too. But I feel like that's where

560
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:16,800
this other kind of openness that we've talked about in the past comes in, where you have these

561
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:23,600
open dialogues and still have that door open to talk about feelings and emotions and about how

562
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:26,000
it's hard to not have all the answers and information, right?

563
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:30,720
Yeah. And it sounded like as a child for her, that really wasn't any of a conversation.

564
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:35,520
It sounds like her mom was really busy raising other children and her dad working. And there's

565
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:39,760
a lot of things going on in people's lives. And I think that that's another takeaway for me too.

566
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:45,920
Yeah. Those conversations really are so important. Openness is important. And yeah, if you can't have

567
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:52,080
an open adoption structurally, have an open dialogue. For sure. Yep. All right. Well, thank

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01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:57,440
you so much again for listening to this episode. Just a quick little shout out. We have recently

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01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:03,040
published the openness guide for adoptive parents, what you should know about open adoption,

570
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:08,880
and we're really proud of it. So you can find that on our website, openadoptionproject.org

571
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:12,160
and find all the information about how to purchase that.

572
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:18,480
We also have it linked in our bio on Instagram at open adoption project on Instagram.

573
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:24,160
That's right. And for a couple more days up through this Thursday, April 18th,

574
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:32,480
you can get 25% off with the code launch OAP. That's L-A-U-N-C-H-O-A-P.

575
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:36,080
All right. So if that's something that you're interested in that might help you,

576
01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:42,800
then we wrote it hoping that it would help others in their journeys. It's really what we wish we

577
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:46,640
had had when we were adopting the first time. All right. Well, thank you so much for being here,

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01:05:46,640 --> 01:06:14,640
friends, and we'll be back soon.