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Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. We're the Nelsons. I'm Shaun.

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And I'm Lanette. And we are excited to be back with more episodes for our celebration of National Adoption Month.

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Yeah, we hope that the things that we share this month, typically about three episodes a week,

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will help you in your observation of and recognition of National Adoption Month.

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Yeah, we're really grateful for the opportunity to be sharing different perspectives and opinions

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and always looking for that chance to learn. It's really one of our big themes here to listen and learn,

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especially listen and learn from adoptees, but also from birth parents.

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There's always something new that we can learn to help us do better going forward.

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Yeah, so this month we're putting out several episodes a week.

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You'll hear episodes conducted by us or by Alicia Gallacher, who's our Director of Communications.

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And again, we just hope to kind of flood the podcast sphere with adoption content for this month.

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Also, we're getting really close to 100 episodes, which is super exciting.

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So this is helping with that too. Little side perk.

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Perfect.

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So we hope you enjoy this episode. And at the end, we'll chat just a little bit about our newsletter.

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If you are not subscribed to our newsletter, I'll ask you right now to go ahead and look it up.

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If you're interested in getting more adoption related content in your inbox.

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So go on over to openadoptionproject.org and click on newsletter to sign up.

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A few episodes ago, we talked about orphan trains.

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And one of the things as we talked about that and researched orphan trains.

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So it really stood out to us that the policies and practices during that time era were really adoptive parent.

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Focused. And of course, this was a problem.

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And this problem persisted over time.

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And you can see it throughout the history of adoption, especially in the United States.

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That's what we've been looking at more. But all over worldwide, you can see this in the history of adoption.

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And even today, we still have ramifications.

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Policies.

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Policies. Yeah, practices that are really problematic because they are focused on adoptive parents and not on individuals who are adopted or biological parents.

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They're focused on the wrong people, really.

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Yeah. And so, yeah, as we were researching the orphan trains, we were just like, wow, this is so fascinating to see some of these issues that are still issues today.

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And we thought it would be really helpful to do an episode where we talk about how we can shift this focus and how we can be the change ultimately.

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Yeah. And even though this episode would be pretty brief, we hope that it will put into your minds different topics that you need to think through.

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Or perhaps even ways that you can act to change policy or procedure or culture in the area and maybe the family even that you're in.

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Absolutely. And another quick side note. So this is really an episode that's geared toward adoptive parents.

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I mean, I think there's definitely ways that everybody in the adoption community can shift the focus and especially adoption professionals.

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This is really something that can be changed on that level.

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But we're directing this to adoptive parents because if adoptive parents are advocating for change and demanding better and seeking justice for adoptees, then adoption professionals are going to listen.

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Right. Exactly. Yeah. And so that's really the reason we have this focus in this episode in particular.

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But of course, this is something that we can all work toward.

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But really, we feel like the ball is in the adoptive parents court to really start shifting this focus. Yep. I think the onus is on us. Yep. Absolutely.

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All right. So as we prepared the episode, what did you see, Sean, that really stood out to you as an example of the focus being in the wrong place on these adoptive parents or these families that we're bringing in children from the orphan trains?

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Yeah. So a few things stood out to me as I read the orphan train.

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One, and I think this still persists today, is that in this matching process or when they were trying to place out in the words of the book, children with families during the orphan train, they were trying to find kids that looked like they could fit into the family.

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Yeah. You see that throughout adoption history. That happened during the 50s. I mean, still today.

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I can see how there are ways that that might secondarily benefit the adoptee, where they may not feel like an outcast because they can't... someone looking at them couldn't tell perhaps that they were adopted.

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But from the text, it sounds like it was very much for the parents' sake so that others may not know.

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Yeah, so the initial policy and practice was really focused on the adoptive parents.

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Yeah. Another example from the book was really kind of promoting this is almost like an indentured servitude where they were advertising like, hey, you can add a kid to your family to help your farm produce better.

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Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is a fictional book, but this is the era that... well, no, the era of Anna Green Gables. This different example, sorry.

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So this makes me think of the Anna Green Gables stories, right, where she's brought into this home initially to be helping because Matthew's getting old.

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And so she's brought in to be a farm hand or to help her in the kitchen.

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And that's really what a lot of these adoption scenarios looked like during this time period where it really kind of dehumanized these children and they were being offered up as a commodity for adoptive parents, which is obviously very adoptive parent centered.

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For sure.

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Yes. Well, and another way was that, at least from the adoption train...

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The orphan train.

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Oh, yeah, sorry.

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It was called Orphan Train Rider by Andrea Warren. We talked about it a few episodes ago.

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Right. So from that text, it also talks about how the worker, the social worker in that situation, that's not what they were called, but would come and check on the parents and say, hey, is this a good fit for you?

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And it wasn't really about the child.

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It didn't sound like they ever checked with the children either to see how they were doing.

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And it was very abrupt in a lot of moves and not really considering that what was best for the child, but really best for the adoptive parents.

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Yeah, and there were a lot of examples. Those are some really good ones. Thanks. Really sad to see how that was practiced then, but also how some of the practices and policies have permeated into even policies and practices today.

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One thing that we've talked with a lot of adoptees about is birth certificates and information being provided to the adoptee. Their own birth certificate has information redacted that in many states is never available to them about their own experience.

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If that's not focused on the wrong people, I don't know what is, right? If you don't have access to your own records. Well, and there's a couple of sides to that, right?

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Like one is biological parents maybe don't want that information there. And so it could be classified as a protection for the rights of the birth parents.

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I can see that side, but at the same time, it's not the right focus. No. And then the other side is that, and I don't know if you know this, if you've never adopted before, when an adoption is finalized, you are given a new birth certificate.

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And in all regards, it looks as though the adoptive parents were the parents at birth. And so it says the doctor's name, the baby's weight, name, all those things and parents and like born to and has the adoptive parents names, which doesn't really reflect the experience.

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It's not an accurate account of history, right? Like I feel like adoptive parents are legit and you can have a wonderful bond with your children, but you're not the birthing parent.

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You're not a biological parent and for like of what would you call it? An official record to make it seem otherwise. And yes, it'd be kind of sketch on that. I think that's really strange that that's how it works. Yeah.

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So I think that's one way. And there's, I think there's solutions to that and we could talk about those in future episodes, but I think that's definitely, definitely one way that we're not adoptee focused. Yeah. And throughout history too.

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So if you look at what is sometimes called the baby scoop era, there's a really, really good book. I highly recommend this for all of our listeners, but especially for prospective adoptive parents. I think this is a really important read. It's called the girls who went away.

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And then there's a colon, the hidden history of women who surrendered children for adoption in the decades before Roe V Wade. It's written by a woman named Ann Fessler and she is an adoptee who was born during this baby scoop era.

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So during the fifties and the sixties, I don't know exactly what year this author was born, but it's about women in this time period who became birth mothers, right? Who placed children for adoption.

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And so she interviews more than a hundred women and they share their stories and a lot of them share really great details and you just hear these heart wrenching accounts where you can see that the policies and practices during this era, during the baby scoop era did not take birth parents or adoptees into account.

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These policies and practices were still focused on adoptive parents during this era as well.

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So a couple of examples that I remember from the book that really stood out to me, but I do recommend it. Please read this book.

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So there was one mother, one first mother who was interviewed and she said, there's still that voice in me that says who would be interested. No one cared then. Why would they care now? I was abandoned when it was right in everybody's face. So I still believe that no one cares.

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Isn't that heartbreaking? So sad. Yeah. She just felt completely alone and abandoned and that stays with her because all of these women placed decades ago, long, long ago.

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And that's a pain that stayed with her for so long where she just feels like no one cares about this experience she had.

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There's another quote from the book that says shame is a very effective way to silence individuals and those who are less social and economically economically powerful are rarely in a position to influence the decisions that affect them.

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That was one of my favorite thoughts from the book because it's so relevant today still. So shame is a tool is what it's basically saying right to silence people.

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And I don't think anyone thinks about that directly when maybe we're practicing behaviors that might come across as shaming someone.

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But yeah, it's true, right? Like when you feel shame, you also feel like you have to be silent and what that stigma does to shutting down stories and how that affects people who are less privileged.

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Super interesting. It reminds me of an adoptee we talked to together.

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Yeah, so we talked with an adoptee who was adopted from Kazakhstan and she shared with us that her parents were impoverished and that she was placed in an orphanage to care for her while her parents worked on increasing their livelihood so that they could care for her.

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And that's a common practice. Yeah, it was especially was but yeah, it still is in some countries and in the fine print of the paperwork.

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It said something like if you don't come back within X amount of time, then your child will be adopted or maybe adopted or could be.

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And they came back like three weeks later. Yeah. Yeah. And she was gone.

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It was heartbreaking. Yeah. And so an example of a family that didn't have this standing right or this economic means to really take a stand.

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And so they were cut off from their child. Well, and thinking of the what's best for the child, right? Yes, there were there was it was hard for her parents at the time to care for her needs.

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And so they doing what's best for the child, put her in a situation that would be better for her that they can care for her, watch, watch her while they fix things, but make things better improve their situation.

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And then they go back to bring her back and care for her love her continue to raise her. She was two at the time, right?

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And then she's gone. And is that what was best for that little girl? I mean, it's concerning. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

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Lots of really concerning things throughout history and adoption practices.

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So you see a lot in history where shame was used to silence birth moms or first moms.

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And I feel like you can also see that when we have adoptees talking about sharing their feelings or feeling like they aren't allowed to share anything other than gratitude.

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They have this kind of pressure to have the lucky adoptee narrative.

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So this kind of societal mood to silence their voices or shame them into silence if they aren't fitting into that mold or if they have a divergent opinion.

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I feel like we've heard that quite a bit on the podcast as we've talked to people. Yeah.

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Another thing that stood out to me as I read this book, The Girls Who Went Away, was the lack of accountability.

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So another quote from this book said the agreement was this was a mother talking again, a first mother talking about her experience.

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The agreement was that they were going to give that piece of paper to my child.

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It would become part of his file on an on his 18th birthday. It would be made available to him.

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When people make promises to you and you don't have a way of verifying, it gives people a lot of latitude to do or not do what they promised.

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And that was the part that really stood out to me that if there's not any way to verify whether people are following through,

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people accountable, then yeah, who knows if they're going to actually follow through.

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And so this lack of accountability during this era, during the orphan trans era was a huge problem.

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And I think that's part of why this contrast between modern adoption that's generally more open and open adoption practices is so huge as we look at these older adoption practices.

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But unfortunately, there are still situations and I hear this a lot still where birth parents are told one thing.

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And then after papers are signed, after a month, things are different.

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Yeah. And heartbreaking.

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Yeah, that is totally unethical. Yeah, absolutely.

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So what can we do? Right.

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What can we as adoptive parents do to shift these policies, these practices so that this focus isn't on us as adoptive parents, but instead shift the focus toward adoptees, toward birth parents to to create more ethical experiences and to make adoption really adoptee centric.

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What can we do?

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Yeah. So first, I think we need to help how we can remove shame and secrecy from the scenario.

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Yeah.

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And so part of that I think is openness, right?

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I think that includes open dialogue within your home where you talk about adoption.

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It's not a secret.

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It's not something weird or taboo to talk about.

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Your child feels like safe asking questions and sharing concerns or saying, Hey, do you think I got this trait from my birth mom and no matter what adoption looks like in your family, there's this open dialogue where you talk about it, right?

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Yeah, for sure.

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And yeah, and hopefully you if you're able to have that open adoption relationship where you have contact and relationship that can help even more with removing that shame and that secrecy.

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Yes. And then again, I guess another idea would be really building on that is to just promote honesty and open communication.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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I'd say a third idea would be to listen to adoptee voices, and along with that also birth parent voices I think that's really important.

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That's really one of our big goals here with the podcast to share and elevate adoptee voices and to help adoptees and birth parents share their stories and experiences no matter what they are.

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Yeah, and where we can I think another idea would be to get involved and promoting adoptees rights in legislation, and in other ways to improve the adoptee situation so one thing that I think of is, if you're working with an adoption agency, talking about some of their

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practices or policies and ask how that benefits the adoptee.

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Yeah, and if you find that an agency that you're talking with has policies and practices that are not adoptee focused. Let them know that that's not something you feel good about.

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And don't work with unethical agencies. Yeah.

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I, it's hard. It's hard. We get that that's hard, but it's really not worth it if you're trying to find a way to justify working with an agency that is really cutting corners or doing things that resemble child trafficking.

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There's really not going to be a great way to justify that when you're talking to your child about their story, and this agency's practices as they grow older.

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Right. Yeah, so I mean, go into your agency and have all of the questions that you ever have. And if they're like, brushing some of your questions off or not answering them.

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Don't work with them like, ultimately you're their customer. Right. And, and that's why adoptive parents are really at the top of the list when which we've.

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Yeah, well, that's why we're having this discussion right because the focus is on adoptive parents, because that's how these agencies are making money and.

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Yeah, which is a whole other can of worms and that's. Yeah, but I think that goes back to the point that it's on us, or on the adoptive parents to make sure that we're doing things that are adoptee focused, we're doing things that are very

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ethical, and that we're doing things that we wouldn't feel one bit of like, worry, sharing the details of our child's adoption with them in the future. Absolutely.

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Okay, so let's shift the focus. I just want to go over our four tips one more time really quick. Remove the shame and secrecy. Number two, promote honesty, open communication.

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Number three, listen to adoptive voices. And number four, get involved in promoting adoptive rights. Yep. All right. So that is our challenge to all of us right to really shift this focus and help make experiences better for adoptees in the future.

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Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the open adoption project. Yeah, we're so grateful to be able to share a lot of content this month, November 2023 for National Adoption Month.

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Yeah, so we just would love to remind you to subscribe to our newsletter. If you have not done that yet. You can go to open adoption project.org and click on newsletter, and there's a subscription form right there.

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Yeah, fill up. Also connect with us on social media. We're on Instagram and Facebook at open adoption project. Yeah, thank you so much for being here and learning with us as we just keep talking and learning about all of these different nuances of adoption.

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Yeah.