Welcome to the open adoption project. This is episode 84. We are the Nelsons. I'm Lanette and I'm Sean in today's episode
We have a wonderful conversation with two amazing women
Yes today we get to talk to
Stevoni Doyle and Aymee Condi and they are both incredible
so
We should probably explain just because it feels complicated at first but as you listen it it's not I promise
It's awesome. Yes, so
Stevoni and
Aymee are both mothers and
They share some of their kids and they have like this big
Like open adoption esque kind of family, but their family started off
being
United like this through kinship foster care and then adoption and they'll tell the story more
But they talk about how it started off
That they did not like each other and as you'll listen to them
You can tell that they have an immense love for each other and immense respect and it's really really powerful to hear how their
Relationship blossomed over time and has grown. I wasn't here
Personally at our house when we recorded this episode Lanette was here with them in our home
But I can tell like I don't even have to see them to know how close they are and like how good of friends
they are like the connection that they have with each other is
so
So strong you'll hear that and yet like sincere and palpable. Yeah, it's really powerful. They're
just
They capitulate as those goals that I have of
being able to have
those strong connections with
Our family right with our kids biological family who have become part of our family. Yeah
Well, let's tell a little bit about them and let's jump into the recording. Yeah, so
Just really quick since this is a longer episode, but it's a really really good one
So definitely stick them to the end. Yes. Yes stay
but Stevoni is a roller derby regional champion and
Aymee is a Burning Man
Enthusiast with the distinction that she added that she is into like the regional Burning Man and they are both
really fun
really
just like automatically I
Felt like this connection to them and really liked them. They're very likable and
Really vulnerable they talk about some really hard feelings and hard experiences
But they do it in a way that's so positive and just really helpful
So we're really excited for you to listen to this conversation with Lanette, Aymee and Stevoni
We're here on the podcast with Stevoni and Aymee. Thank you so much both of you for being here
So exciting to be here. Thanks for having us. Yeah, so to start off. Can you tell us about yourselves?
So my name is Aymee Condy I am an adoptive parent
I have adopted three children to the foster care system
My first two children came to me when they were six and three and I was 23
My youngest came to me when he was 13 months old and they are now 27 25 and 16
so
And this is my older kids mom
My name is Stevoni Doyle and I am a birth mother and
my kids
went into the foster care system in
March of
2001
They were removed from my care due to me being addicted to methamphetamines and
Just not caring for my kids properly
How I guess Aymee and I are related I guess is can't see my quotes here
Is she was married to my ex-husband my oldest boy's father
At the time of the removal of my kids, so
Her and my ex-husband wanted to get custody of my oldest son
and that's how they got involved in the process of
Foster care and adoption
Yeah, so yeah
Our daughter our shared daughter
She is not so she's not
Biologically related, but she was biologically related to a biological relation
That's how we're kinship family
And so I was a stepparent and a foster parent for two of stepney's kids basically
Yeah, and awesome. Yeah
So those and that we like call those our children because they are our children
But then like I have my son that I think is separate and then she has her son
That's a little separate
But then those two boys like they kind of think of themselves as like a family
So it's just a big it's just a big family and I don't we didn't start that way
Um when yeah when Stevoni was going through her drug addiction
First of all, she was a different person and drugs really like affect people in in ways that change their personalities, but
Also, just yeah, I think it's interesting about emotional maturity
And the way that they're able to change their personality
And then the way that they're able to change their personality is just so different
So it's just so different
So that's one of the things that we were talking about earlier
And then the other thing that we were talking about earlier was the idea that we were both 23 years old
And we're trying to manage the lives of these like little people and at the time I think we both felt like we were really old
Mm-hmm
And then like a three or four years later, oh my gosh that yeah that we would like
There's no way that I would imagine that I would be sitting next to this person and being like yeah. She's she's great. She's amazing
I We didn't start out that way. We started out very hostile very much. Like I was the baby stealer and she was the drug addict
She was my ex-husband's wife. I mean that's a whole yeah, that's a tricky dinam. Yeah
just a whole different dynamic and and I was also on drugs and so I'm not
thinking clearly I'm also very selfish as a person because to me all my kids
needed was me and even though I couldn't care for them properly and I wasn't
coherent most the time because I was on drugs the selfish part of me was like my
kids don't belong to anybody else and don't need to be anywhere else and so
it was it was a dynamic that that she didn't like me and I didn't like her and
it's kind of how it was at first. Yeah that went on for a long time like maybe
close to a year of the kids being in care of and then so we had our what's it
permanency hearing we had our permanency hearing that basically is just to
decide if what if the children should be adopted or whatever and at that hearing
I felt like I had like won this great battle you know we were in this war for
what's in the best interest of the children and I was like super excited
because now these children were gonna probably likely come to me that was the
plan that was all those things and and Tyler like our oldest was placed with us
at that time like that was permanent custody at that time too and so but
like Stevoni left that exact same hearing with a totally different
understanding. Yeah I again didn't understand what was going on throughout
the process mainly because I was on drugs the majority of the time but
permanency to me what I thought it was is DCFS said we're no longer offering
services to you and I was like great I don't have to jump through your hoops
all I have to do now is in jail at the time so this is like kind of where my
thinking was all I have to do is get out of jail get a job get a house and my
kids can come home and I was just completely naive about the situation and
had no idea what was actually happening and what permanency really meant at that
time. Yeah like Stevoni disappeared for some time it was really there was a lot
of disruption within that that time when we were there but I felt like so but the
difference was that I also started to change after permanency so between
permanency hearing and our termination trial there was like three months of
time and in that time I went through this drastic emotional shift within me
that basically I I became a mother and I I for people who've gone through foster
care I think that they understand this idea but for people who don't understand
I just imagine that like children that you barely know are just brought to your
home and then they're like hey love them but like not so much that you can't give
them back when it's time you're just holding on to them temporarily I felt
like a babysitter like a 24-7 babysitter that and and at any time all she had to
do was get those things yeah and we would like I would I would no longer be
a mother to these children especially for Lexi because I had no ties to her
otherwise she could have just completely disappeared and so that's our daughter's
name I don't know if I said that anyway so but I became this mother and it was a
different a whole different thing I've never been a mom before these were kids
just hello instant family and so it was I developed this different feeling of
empathy and compassion because I was also not a perfect mother believe it or not
23 I had like all of these like flaws but I had to hide those from everyone
right couldn't let anybody know that I was struggling or having a hard time
with these kids because then they think I wouldn't I wasn't capable and they
take them away that's a really it's a challenging dynamic within the foster
care system of not being able to admit when like things are wrong not being able
to say I'm struggling and I really was struggling but not again not like to the
level that they needed to be removed just that I needed I felt ashamed of
that but when it came time to wear a trial I really had a different vibe about
Stevoni and as a foster parent you get to sit through the whole the whole trial
and this is my husband's ex-wife and what it would have betraying awful
feeling that only as our ex-husband now has developed a new wife do I really
fully understand that that would have been so terrible but like watching her
have to testify and have to try to make something out of really nothing there
was like very little to have a defense about and to be testified against from
so many different police officers because I've been arrested so many times
there's probably an officer from like every city in the county there and my
daughter's dad saying a bunch of awful untrue stuff you know the majority of
what had happened was true that the DCFS brought and stuff like that but just it
was just you're under every one of your flaws is under a microscope and you are
just sitting in a courtroom full of people with person after person saying
how awful of a person you are and how awful of a mother you are which is
something that should just be like I guess like as a woman I felt like the
one thing that should be natural to me to be a good mom and a protective mom
and a caring mom I fail that and I think that's when things started to shift for
me with Aymee as well was during that trial I think I started to realize
listening to all of that negative stuff about me that that I was being selfish
and I couldn't offer my kids what they needed it took a couple of days I'm
sorry to interrupt but like the first day like when I went so I had to testify
and in the middle of my testimony like they asked me how I felt about my
daughter who wasn't my daughter at that time but it doesn't ask me how I felt
about it and I said that I felt really like she was completing our family and
Stevoni could not tolerate that all slams her hands down on the table
disrupts the whole courtroom gets in huge trouble like while I'm on the
witness stand it was just so we didn't like each other not a smart thing to do
in court either just just not but so yeah because we had to go for one day
and then date like weeks pass and you come in for another day of trial it was
so such a weird thing it was awful but I think we both had these shifts because
I've spent the first day feeling sorry for Stevoni and like actually like
calculating through my life if I had done just this one little choice
different yeah or anything I could have easily ended up in the same place with
four kids by the time I was 21 years old and why did you get it why did you
develop a meth problem that's such a surprise and a shock yeah that's so easy
I know it's such an easy life you had well and having those four kids under
the age of four and then there my daughter's dad left and I was working at
a bar and the manager of the bar who was like a 40 something year old man but hey
you try this instantly I was addicted it's pretty easy and I I had experienced
some things that I was like all I would if I had gotten caught doing that or if
this had that we weren't that far apart and more importantly that like love is
separate from being able to parent that was my first experience of like
distinguishing between those two things because she had like a picture of the
kids that said like hope on it and there was like no hope here but how do you give
up hope as a mother how do you let that go and and finally seeing her in a mother
we are the same yeah and yeah that also realizing that this tragic thing is
happening a family is being ripped apart forever and I had no idea what that was
even I had no concept of what that could even feel like but that's what was
happening right there in my family I had to go home and tell my kids like a judge
decided that your mom's not your mom anymore and not both of them either
like that was a really confusing piece because she's still Tyler's legal mother
that never had to change because yeah it just didn't but because now this person
I'm gonna be on this kid's birth certificate but not this kid's birth
certificate and explaining all of that was just it was tragic and I didn't know
what to do with it but that like the tragedy was happening in front of me to
this woman that I felt a lot of empathy for suddenly I only I have to call it
like a divine intervention I know I mean just I didn't have that capability to do
that there's nothing it just came through it came back later well no what
like so she comes and we end court you lose your rights and we're walking out of
court and these are just like as I'm like remembering these memories it's
like such a disgusting feeling of just tragicness but she comes running toward
me and I honestly thought maybe she was coming to hit me like she just lost
lost the rights to her kids and instead she like wraps her arms around me and
just hugs me and says take care of our kids I'm like you know I will but it was
like this passing of a thing but also my whole body said why is this why do we
have to do this but she really was addicted to drugs and so that's why we
had to do it but yeah sorry you go well and and she talked about like divine
intervention I think about that moment and what caused me to do that like I
don't it was some sort of something pushing me and saying hey you you need
to tell this person to take care of our kids or whatever and and I think it was
also me just also passing the torch to her and saying it's okay for you to be
their mother I mean we still have like lots of weirdness and awkwardness for a
long time but it you know it just I finally started to wake up a little bit
no you know I wasn't what was best for them and you know after the trial things
kind of a kind of went on my own way and I think it's probably like three or four
months after the trial I had committed a lot of crimes and it was getting close
to me being sentenced for for these crimes but I figured out of the blue
maybe I should call them because I had their phone number I mean you know it's
my ex-husband I knew their number and just see if she'll talk to me about the
kids like I didn't expect anything from it in fact to be honest she could have
what I expected was her just to hang up on me you know she didn't have to talk
to me and we when I called her we talked for a long time on the phone and both
talked about our fears of it was the first time that we've been vulnerable in
any way shape or form yeah I was always been guarded and it was the first time
that we'd actually interacted without like a bunch of other people like DCFS
people were looking or attorneys or just gross things that make everything
complicated so I think it was a time to be vulnerable and yeah so I go ahead it
was just that was it like we both realized that I think that we both loved
those kids and and that we both have like the exact same fears like my biggest
fear was that my kids would forget about me and not want me at any of the
important events in their life and wouldn't care and her biggest fear was
that all the kids would want is me there and wouldn't want wouldn't care if she
was there and that was just I guess it was really kind of interesting so we
talked for a long time and then she like did something crazily amazing and invited
me to come over and see the kids I'm super impulsive yeah and I so I went
over there and I got to see the kids and they were so excited to see me and they
were so like excited about to show me everything in their house and and they
took me to their room and I went in their bedroom and they had a picture of
me hanging up on their wall and it was a healthy picture of when I was younger
and I felt like she had not let them forget me and kind of invited me to
still be a part of their lives by having that picture hanging in the room and
that was just just like a really amazing moment for me I was just really
overwhelmed to see that and I think that's kind of the start of everything
yeah I think we we accepted that we both could be there that it was our issue
yeah it was our inability to like tolerate our own emotions and or be safe
like that was another thing so I in that conversation we talked about and I don't
think that in the moment there's no way that we knew this was gonna be such a
meaningful conversation that would like guide our whole whatever for the next
whatever long but it really was like I said to her you've got because at this
time she was still doing a lot of things that were very unpredictable and unsafe
yeah you know and so like you need to have some some sobriety you need to
have like be working on things but more importantly when you tell the kids that
you're gonna come you're gonna show up because we've done things before that
they've not like she's not shown up to things and it's just so that's really
hard yeah it's hard it like with our daughter's biological dad there's a
whole side story to this but he kept he would keep promising to show up and
never showed up and like this went on for his for just a long time and he just
had to finally be like no you don't get access anymore because you can't you
can't keep promising a little person that's not fair it's not okay it's
better for you to be away yeah but that you would you know stop promising
things that you couldn't deliver on but they would be honest and just that we we
could envision just even imagine I think in today's this is 20 years ago in today's
society the idea of co-parenting is so popular and everybody knows what they're
doing this was not a foreign that was not a thing was the 90s and open
adoptions to was not a thing not at all the state of Utah especially it was just
you know it was because Utah has closed adoptions I don't think that's changed
at all there's I know that they've really pushed for open adoption there
wasn't a legal way to have an adult open adoption there is now okay so and like
we haven't mentioned that she had to we haven't really mentioned that she had
two other children the twins that are a year younger than Lexi but that like that
shift and the the differences between those things and I guess we can compare
that a little later in the story but I at the time it was really important to
me that 70 be a consistent piece even if it was just once a year or letters or
whatever that looked like find where you're gonna be but for right now come
and visit because you know they really want to see you there was no way and I
mean I don't think anyone should erase your adoption history I don't I think
you should tell your children their adoption story every single moment you
have a chance it's their life story but I think it was really challenging to
give a story for what was happening because this isn't supposed to happen
adoption really like infant adoption that's a whole different thing but
something tragic has to happen in our family for our family to even exist yeah
and so telling our story to our kids about our kids has been helpful but also
I think it's important to just have that piece that says this is why we did it
and I couldn't erase her I couldn't just say like you know what guys I'm your new
mom that other person she's not your mom but here's the thing that really shocks
me is that there's people out there in the world who believe that is true and
still to this day believe that is true it it never will it you can't just erase
someone's history or give it like people who give new names like the twins got
new names when they were adopted when they're finally adopted at seven they
got new first names and they also got cut off from seeing their siblings which
you know they have that right and and I don't want to like diss them and in fact
I've gotten to know them really well in the last probably five years five years
and so I understand a lot of more why they did what they did but that was
really difficult for the girls and for especially for Tyler and Lexi because
they were old enough to remember their siblings so you know like here's two
here's two of your sisters who just they exist in some place in this county maybe
we'll bump into them but one day when we did bump into them their mom literally
dragged them away like wouldn't let us talk to them and I I used to really try
to try to feel a lot of empathy for that but that really was like from my
perspective the wrong thing to do I can't come up with how that was an okay
thing to do yeah it really it hurt my children and I so from from from our
perspective even at that time when open adoption wasn't being promoted there was
no way that we could consider anything but an ocean an open adoption and if
we're gonna have to do that for the rest of our lives why not make it
reasonable yes tolerable and even the as we as we grew now Stevoni went to
prison for a long time a little over two years total yeah well you tell your
presence right actually three years so after that phone call we started doing
visits and Aymee had been taking our kids to my family reunion which was a huge
thing while I was not there and and so they she was maintaining that
relationship with my family and so we just kind of got to know each other a
little bit more I was still using so like three months after the yes so we
started developing a relationship and started talking and then I got
sentenced to probation federally and then to do a year in Utah County Jail and
three years probation so we decided to invite Aymee and the kids to a dinner my
going away party and we took our kids to Sizzler and my mom and everybody was
there because I was going to turn myself in the next day I want to add in the
telling the truth okay yeah okay so from where we talked about the story tell
right now like having a story to tell so one of the things that that I did
thinking I was protecting my kids was to tell them not the truth and lie
necessarily I just said things like your mom's sick and she's going away to
places to get better and like kind of painting it over in a weird way that to
me made their little tender hearts hear it better but what it actually did was
really confused them and I found that out when mom didn't get better she's now
having like she's going away to jail and now we have to talk about what that
means and I realized during this time about the importance of like telling the
truth about drugs that kids really can understand drugs even if they're only
four years old yeah and that they can understand the concept of like making a
bad choice and meeting like a grown-up timeout and so we really started at that
time to really tell our story in more honest and genuine ways which was really
a valuable piece yes so that when it came time for you to go to jail yes yes
so we went out to dinner by this time the kids were very comfortable with the
fact that I was going to jail and our kids have never been quiet and never
been shy so we're in Sizzler and the lady comes up and Tyler's all my mom's
going to jail tomorrow and just telling her and so that's why we're here at
dinner yeah we don't really live with her yeah you know yeah they're just
really open and honest with people so I went to jail and Aymee decided well
especially our oldest boy Tyler was very nervous about me being in jail he
thought it was you know like you see on TV where they give you like bread and
water and slide it under the door and you're in an old like pit or whatever
with so he was nervous and so she started driving by the jail saying hey
look it's just a building this is what it is and and Tyler asked her well why
can't we just go in and so yeah I'll let you tell that part because I think it's
pretty interesting well again to to really try it was hard we had to build a
relationship with someone who's literally locked away in a building and
we're going through therapy we're doing all of that stuff trying to you know
manage this this tragic thing that had happened so yeah deciding to go visit in
jail I got so much like negative feedback from people and I laugh about
it because I think I think people just haven't really considered it they they
live in their bubble and like here in this valley a lot of people live in a
lot of different bubbles which is fine but they don't really include jail visits
in those bubbles but like people would say to me you know if you take your kids
to the jail they're gonna think that it's okay to go to jail and they're
gonna be like fine breaking the law when they're adults and there was a little
bit of me that was like me that's true but what if it's not what if like they
need to see that their mom's okay what if that's actually way more important
that like we have to make gel okay because mom's there talk about play
therapy with Tyler yeah so Tyler yeah Tyler would he would take me we were
doing this thing called filial therapy which is a caregiver and the child and
then the therapist like watches and so we he had this routine and I mean it was
like it didn't take a master's degree honestly if what's wrong with this child
but like he would grab all of the like police stuff and then he'd arrest me and
then he would take me over to the corner and then tell me how bad I was and I was
in jail and I'd be like okay and then he would go get every food item in the
play therapy room to bring to me to give me all of the food like to take care of
me right so the kind that this like punishing police officer kind jailer and
this went like over and over that happened multiple times and like that's
just not he needs to know that his mom's okay in jail maybe so I yeah I figured
out how to do family visits and we we figured that out and that what was that
that was that was outside of my comfort zone I'm gonna put it that way but when
when I looked at is this harming my children yes they are sad yes they are
like distressed that you know their life isn't the way it is but really their
life isn't the way it is and we have to like find ways to make that okay like
probably two or three visits in Lexi's like skipping down to whatever this ski
resort is called yeah at the Utah County jail they name all the places after ski
resorts which is just me like you you're housed in snowbird but yeah so she's
like skipping down there and you're like meeting between the glass it's literally
how you see it on they don't even do that anymore anyway but yeah on its
little phone thing it's just exactly like you see it on television but this
is their mom and all of a sudden she started to look a little bit healthier
yes she wasn't having a lot of access to math yeah like I started to put on some
weight and that I call it the the soul comes back the light comes back in the
eyes because there's something about when somebody's doing drugs that they've
just got this vacant yeah I don't know and so you know they got to see that
light come back on and they got to see me get healthy and it was amazing to that
she would bring them there to visit me and you know I always look forward to
those visits and and we started to develop a little bit of a relationship I
was only in gel for I think about seven months and gel is what I call I haven't
been there in years and I don't ever want to go back to find out what it's
like now but it's a very stagnant place where it was and you're constantly
bombarded with people coming in off the street that are high or that are
detoxing from drugs and you're just around the same people that that you use
with and you get in trouble with and I didn't put any effort into really
changing my life so when I was released from jail I was using again within two
weeks I didn't change anything about my life I didn't change the people that I
hung out with I just nothing changed so Aymee and Reid started like you know
immediately having visits with me when I got out of jail and I think that kind of
rushed into they may have kind of rushed into things a little bit but I think so
at the time I really believed that it was safe yeah right because you weren't
with the kids alone ever really like your brother was always there your mom
was blocks away I know I don't know that it was necessarily unsafe I think I
think I was naive I think that I thought because yeah you'd been away from meth
why would you go back to this drug like yeah I were both yeah yeah I I thought
for sure that anybody who had gone that long in jail without the drug in their
body yeah that they would be recovered yeah but that that would just be the
magical cure right just time and so that was you know that was kind of naive on
everyone's part let's again remember that we are like 25 years old what we
were younger than that no the kids can't live with me and I'm 23 and this is like
two years later so like 24 25 the same age that's what we're trying for cuz I
went to prison when I was 24 there you go okay I mean so let's let's just
calculate I often have to do this calculation I know you're in our young
20s I know it's crazy and we're just like why didn't we know that I know oh I
don't know but yeah so I think we jumped into I think the kids were really
excited they were really excited that you were gonna be around yeah and and
they didn't have to go to the jail anymore yeah and I could touch them and
yeah you know play with them and unfortunately that didn't last I I think
I made it three months before I was arrested again and I was on both state
probation and federal probation so when I was arrested again I was violated on
both of those probations so when I got arrested again in March of 2004 I was
sentenced to zero to five years in Utah State Prison so I was transferred up to
Utah State Prison and Aymee and I decided that while I was in prison that it would
be best if we didn't do in-person visits because the kids could be subject to
some pretty scary things like full-body searches or if something were to happen
while they're there we just we just felt both of us felt it just wasn't a good
thing but we started like I would call them all the time I would write letters
Aymee would write letters to me we started kind of really to develop Aymee and I
started to develop more of a relationship one-on-one when I went to
prison through letters and phone calls and I was getting I got released from
Utah State Prison after 16 months and I was transferred to a federal holding
facility in Daggett County this waiting for me to be sentenced on my federal
stuff and I had talked to my probation officer and my attorney and they're like
listen they're probably just gonna reinstate your probation and let you
out you've done this much time so I was really excited to get out and then it
was the day before Mother's Day and I got a call over the PA that I had a
contact visit and I was like this has got to be like my probation officer or
my lawyer or something and I walked into the room and Aymee had driven figured out
how to get a contact visit driven for three and a half hours with our children
just so they didn't have to go another Mother's Day without seeing me and I
think that solidified my relationship with her that this person truly loves
our children and she loves me too she's not gonna do that you know just you know
for the heck of it and I was so amazed that I got to touch these kids that I
hadn't touched in over 16 months and you know got to see them and how big they
are and we made all these plans for when I was gonna get out because I was going
to court on Monday and it was just an amazing experience that she would do
that but come Monday I had to make a pretty devastating phone call the
federal judge said hey I'm afraid if I let you out and reinstate your probation
you're just gonna violate again so I'm gonna send it to you to a year and a day
in federal prison and when they take you to federal prison they immediately take
you and put you on Con Air so you're like handcuffed in an airplane and you
end up in a federal holding facility in Oklahoma so I had to call that night and
say I'm not coming home for in federal time you do like 80% of your time and so
I was like at least another 11 months I was devastating but I am actually truly
thankful that I did go to federal prison I don't know if I was ready to get out
at that time yeah I mean Stevoni makes a joke sometimes she'll say like if
you're gonna go to prison go to federal prison yeah I agree it's the best of the
prisons yes like she was she was out in Phoenix in this like work camp there
aren't any fences there's like just the city that is run by the inmates and it
was really interesting to see her grow and change within that community-based
environment I yeah I'm a strong proponent for that because it really
did help her she'd done some schooling like she got her high school diploma and
in state prison but like federal prison she had a job she learned a trade she
learned all of these things and also her desire for improvement was so obvious
there was like yeah it wasn't just there was some responsibility like I think one
of the things that you were talking about about what changed and how how are
we able to make this happen if Stevoni was still in that blaming
stage where she used to be you know like if that caseworker hadn't done this or
if that whatever I'd have my kids sorry no it's true that's where I was so but
in federal prison there was some accountability there was some shifts in
like responsibility there was some maturity emotionally yeah there was a
maturity emotionally for me as well in that like seeing and envisioning that I
could be friends with this person wasn't just like before that I was mostly doing
it for my kids sacrificing like my time and my things for my kids that's what
you do as a mom but I began to care about Stevoni in different ways like I
really was invested in her being successful because if her if she was
successful all of us would have more success our whole family would be better
off if she could be better off and really believing that she could do it and
that like when she got out of federal prison it was it was amazing she even
chose to stay longer which was so weird they offered me to get out early to go
to a halfway house and I was too scared of getting out and messing up at a
halfway house because if I would have messed up I would have gotten new
charges and I wouldn't have gotten out of the federal system so I was like nope
I'm just gonna stay the extra month and terminate my case but that the feds
because I was so paranoid about me making a mistake so but coming home was
amazing I think all of us were super excited they threw me what's called like
a coming out party which is pretty awesome that actually concludes chapter one so there is
there is a chapter two so yeah when you came home it really was like a different
a different chapter a different chapter in our lives you were in such a
radically different place than even the year that you've been there before and so
it was it was really good to experience that connectedness but I was I was 100%
invested in your well-being and I I don't regret that investment at all I just I
had to do an assignment I'm in grad school right now and I had to do an
assignment in my cultural diversity class about who is one of the most like in
influential supports in your life and I couldn't there wasn't like of course my
mom you know but like everybody says your mom whatever but I had to think
like who is a person that has been there and I had to choose her because I don't
know where I'd be without her because she invested so much in my recovery and
was so supportive of me through like every step and so I had to like copy of
the assignment and send it to her because I was like I just need you to
know this but it's just she did she supported me and then we started to
build our relationship um I got a coming out party yes tell that story so well at
this point we're kind of normalized in our little family right nobody nobody's
feeling super awkward so we have a family we have a we have a party her
coming out party she just gotten a job and started a job and so like things
were really looking up because it was really hard for you to find a job and so
she's worse like hanging out together and that so that's her ex-husband my
current husband and our two children right it's really interesting little
thing but we were all we were all fine yeah this guy from work calls her and
it's like hey what are you doing what's up I'd like take you out she's like well
I'm hanging out my ex-husband's house would you like to come over and like he
was like hard pass but things she's married to that guy now but like it was
it was just sometimes we'd get wake-up calls like when we go out in public or
something you know there'd be this mom mom thing and this was way before it was
cool to be lesbian you know and so it just people would give us strange looks
and all sorts of stuff when we go out with our husband we just look really
infertile polygamous you know but like it I think when we finally said like we
didn't actually care what other people thought that was a big step in in at
least at that time because yeah I would introduce I'd be like oh I was hanging
out with Stevoni and people would look at me so weird like why why are you
doing that why are you going and hanging out with her like you weren't even on a
visit with the kids you did it like you just went and did stuff because you
enjoy her yeah but that's that's really what it took I think for us to move
through and be where we are is we had to actually care about each other in in a
different way that wasn't about like oh well we just get together because of the
kids but yeah we did get together because of the kids I think we get
together a lot less now certainly because the kids are adults and it's
just not but when they were little like we would spend so we decided that
Christmas we didn't want to have two Christmases it's so dumb and so we she
would come to my house and spend the night on Christmas morning and like as a
kids got older I went to her house like just it we built our family in routines
and in acceptance and belonging yes I love that that we all belong we all
belong just simply because we we decided to do this all together hey yeah and I
don't think our kids I I do think that our kids are way better because of it
because they never had to choose they never had to feel like oh I I need to do
this for my mom or for well I was mommy she was mom that's what they call us
even like they would use our names like they still do yeah my kids call me Aymee
or mom yeah and I do not hear the difference I don't either and so it's
just it became this like really and what was so funny when they were little
sometimes they would say mom and neither one of us we would just like oh I thought
you were talking to her so yeah that that title like oh man when Lexi first
called me mom I'm gonna go back for a second first time Lexi called me mom was
in front of Stevoni which was so hard and awkward but when you let go of those
titles when you let go of needing to be the mom or the dad and you're like oh
I'm a mom yeah yeah just the other day when I introduced you like this is my
kid's mom and you're like and this is my kid's mom yeah we just love to make
people's eyes go what are you this lesbian yeah yeah it just what she's
right once you let go of that like jealousy and and our kids gained from
that they came to moms and two dads and multiple sets of grandparents and you
know never had to choose oh I'm gonna go to Christmas here or spend this holiday
here or spend my birthday here I mean we celebrated their birthdays together it
was just it was everything and you know it's just amazing and I think I think
that was the best gift that we could give our kids yeah was to have that and
and I'll tell you right now like our kids have their own little issues they're
young adults but they are probably the most like well-adjusted when it comes to
not abusing substances they want nothing to do with that not in any type of
criminal trouble at all in fact you know they are very yeah they never went to
jail yeah we're weird I know so far well and it'll be okay if they do yeah yeah
just very and and emotionally compassionate to people I so I worked
what some after I adopted the kids the DCFS felt like this place that I should
work for 10 years so I did my time there but like I've seen so many different
ways to adopt and so many different people who have perceptions about
adoption and I was really always blown away like people would think if I just
do these things right if I just do these things then it will erase all of that
trauma and in some ways I bought into that sometimes too but I think what
really helped us was to find acceptance for what had happened like I don't think
our kids are ashamed of your story I think if anything they let they're like
you know my one mom's been to prison yeah but like I there's no there's
nothing to hide there's no even if there is there was a few times when they were
teenagers that they would like triangulate us and and then we'd be
like what I'm not gonna mention any names but like they or you know sometimes
it would be like well I'm gonna go over to Stevoni's house because I can do
that over there and then she would have to call me and say hey this is what they
said and I'm really that's bull crap and we did that I guess that's an kind of
what we did so we really co-parented our kids and they would come over and
spend time with me and we physically when we would do drop-off and pick up we
would have a big conversation we usually hung out for an hour or so while we did
that and it was constant communication about what the kids were doing what
behaviors they were having you know we called each other all the time most of
the time the kids did not pull anything on us but it did happen a couple times
as they got a little bit older to do that trying those boundaries you know
figure out if you're safe or not but like it was it as you know even through
the really there were really challenging parts I don't I don't think that we had
kids that were just easy there were some things that were really challenging and
if I hadn't had Stevoni they're sitting in the courtrooms with me sitting
in all of those things with me I I don't know what I would have done I would have
been so lost I these people that are that don't understand you're gaining
you're gaining an extra parent yes when I needed respite hey go to your mom
yep and and trusting in that and feeling like that was okay and that didn't
happen overnight but I don't think that it could have happened if we couldn't
have let go of like living in jealousy yeah right like there are jealousies
there's times when you're like wait do you love her more than me and then you
remember oh that's that's what a child thinks adult adult maturity says my kids
can absolutely love as much as I can love them equally and different our kids
can love us equally and different yeah yeah we always talked about our
jealousies too yeah I think that like we'd always say I'm a little bit jealous
about this and it made it easier for us I think yeah normalizing that vulnerable
yeah well that we couldn't we couldn't pretend that we were like this
Hallmark card family yeah we're not a Hallmark card family we're this weird
weird family but I I am so I'm so grateful that we were able to go outside
of the box of people trying to erase histories or people like and not to
bring up the twins as much anymore because it feels a little bit trying to
some of their privacy but like when I so when they when the kids turned 18 so
that was the girls came and lived with Stevoni like within a few months of
turning 18 and then Lexi decided that she also needed to go and live with
Stevoni so she had a 19 year old and two 18 year olds just boom here you go
you're the birth mom yeah how's rough my twin daughters have a lot of trauma from
being completely cut off from from their family and again you know I'm not trying
to like badmouth their adopted family I think they're great people and they did
the best that they could do with what they have but you know it I'm gonna
challenge that because I think I think that they were given an example because
I was talking to them the whole time it's true I was saying to them hey
things are safe things are appropriate things are going okay not the whole time
yeah but for a while because then they finally cut us all off and that whatever
that's whatever it I think people acting out of fear make really interesting
choices so I'm gonna say that they were acting out of fear but I don't think
that they like had no idea what how to do it different they did know how to do
it different and they had people telling them hey you don't have to cut them off
you don't have to do this and they're like nope that's what we're gonna do
maybe that's I I still have I still have a lot of bitter feelings and maybe you
maybe you've forgiven a lot more and because you've had to you've been like
with you've had to do the exact same thing that I had to do for you yeah
that's such an interesting thing that I don't even know that I've put together
because yeah yeah you have to be because you're literally the adopt so Stevoni
actually adopted one of the twins yes I did after they so she's legally my
legally and biologically my daughter again so but she's now the adoptive
parent to those parents and you have to you have to love them yeah you because
they're your kids parents and I'm still I'm still stuck in some because I don't
know how to do that but she also was there with the trauma of them losing
their siblings where I was in prison and I didn't see everything that happened
and so she had to work through that so I understand well and I feel I feel lied
to and betrayed to be fair because I was told your family will never stop
talking to you will never do that and then within months of finalizing their
adoption they were like nah this is a bad idea yeah and never spoke to us
again I mean that's not true that's not true they sent us what three pictures
maybe over the years yeah yeah that but that was a trauma and a loss that was
unnecessary I was not an unreasonable person I was yeah there was there was
just fear and and I think people so I've also I've also done like therapy with
adult adoptees and adult adoptees whose parents like don't don't allow for a
space to talk about adoption because they're sad they're sad about their
child's own adoption story and they bring their own grief to the situation
and their own crap we all do but if you're unwilling to acknowledge that you
were bringing a whole baggage of garbage to your adoption story and you're like
no I'm perfectly fine you're wrong you're there's there's pain there's grief
there's loss in every role within adoption but if you tell a child like oh
no we're just all a big happy family now we just forget about that other stuff
but they'll they'll they'll do some interesting things to figure it out and
my girls are struggling like really struggling crushing for developing your
identity and feeling like you have to mask or hide yeah this piece of who you
are yeah I think I always kind of felt like they were bad there was something
wrong with them because of where they came from so yeah there's just so many
there I don't want to get on in bad-mouth people but I just there were
so many stories that I heard about how their closed adoption happened that just
shattered my heart and was just like unnecessary and completely out of fear
to try to keep them away and guess what it didn't work yeah so we're here to
tell you that doesn't work don't anybody do it no I'll always reach out and and I
think that was probably the biggest thing that that I that got me through
those 16 years of not seeing them was that they're gonna find me someday yeah
so and they did and move right in and now it's been a whirlwind yeah so I think
stories yeah yeah I don't I I know what made it work for us what made it work
for us was compassion and like seeing that what we were doing was actually in
the best interest of our kids whereas I don't know that a lot of mental health
professionals are like open they're even understand that you can yep they're
still bought into this idea that says oh keep your family safe keep those other
people you know their family over there away from them and safety like even if
somebody had never gotten sober and frankly she never got sober we wouldn't
have this thing my kids had grandparents my kids had aunts and uncles and kids
had this whole family that loved them from the day they were like even thought
up just not something I could ever offer them with my family and yeah if you cut
off because of safety you're making the wrong choice find ways there's so many
like I think about social media being available and all of this stuff that's
now available that we didn't have okay if we could have seen pictures of the
twins on social media even that would have felt like a decent connection that
we wouldn't have had to like catch up right or whatever but the fact yeah
there were just so many positive things in open adoption that and nobody I have
a miracle I get I get to have like the best bio mom ever who is adaptable and
flexible and sober and all of those things and like yes I get I get that I
made choices you don't have to flatter me about it I know that that's true but
I also get you and other people don't get that but I just encourage people
every time that I talk about open adoption find out where your boundary is
and then I'd like to say what is one step further that you would take it to
open it up just one step further and why are you unwilling to do that what is
that about is it about you is it about your child is it about them there are
unsafe people out there I get it but that one step of allowing a phone call
that one step of allowing like an email address open it up one more step and
what I found for myself is that as I went step by step by step by step I got
to have an amazing relationship with someone and I'm forever grateful for
that and her willingness to do that helps me tremendously become the person
that I am today and in my recovery that her belief in me and her interest in my
life and my my success was like a catalyst for so many things and where I
am today that's so beautiful thank you so much Bo thank you thank you do you
want to talk about where you are today it's just been a it's been a privilege
to watch 70s journey I yeah I've watched her go from being like a tire technician
when she first got out and she was the fastest tire technician in the county
fastest like not the fastest female the fastest and I changed them my tires so
she did she was really awesome she was super awesome and then like she switched
over as many do to like mental health and substance use and I have watched her
grow in being able to help other people and what a gift that she is to people
because she is able to say I did it you too can do it like I joke all the time
about how the same county that locked her up for crimes a lot of my crimes
they now give her like a six-figure budget and say hey will you just manage
that for us and you got it right yeah like she works so she works at the
prisoner access to recovery program at was such behavioral health and is like a
department lead person and she's in grad school and I am so impressed with her
and I talked about Aymee because she's incredible not only did she do her time
at DCFS which going through school and social work that's kind of always been
one thing that that you're learning about and I just knew that that was no
place I could ever be she touched so many lives and changed so many families
lives I still hear about her and and like the amazing things that she's done
like when specific clients come in and know her whatever but she also put
herself through grad school and I call her my therapist because I call her my
substance use counselor she's also the last so the last several years since
she's got divorced I know it's been difficult for her she's taken on the
role of being a single mom and has really had to I guess find herself
outside of a marriage and she has started her own business too and I got
the pleasure of interning at a vision that business during my my bachelor's
degree and the environment that she has there is you walk into that place and
you just feel incredible like and she has worked so hard at it and she's also
she taught me how to be a parent because there was so much I didn't know and she
also taught me how to be a friend I don't have like hardly any girlfriends at
all I don't really like hang out with people but she's always been the person
that I can call when I need something good or bad and I'm just she's just
amazing now I mean she's always been amazing but I just I don't know what I
could do what how my life would be without her I think I yeah I'm so
grateful for all the things that we've built together and yeah that is yeah I
have about the best thing that I ever did in my life you know it's it's this
that's for sure talking about it really makes me miss our kids being little and
all the things because life's so crazy now like we hardly get together like we
used to or anything and just it makes me miss it
well we just want to give a huge thanks to Stevoni and Aymee again I loved this
conversation and how vulnerable open and just clearly that communicates so many
really important aspects of connection and relationships in the adoption sphere
yes I love how supportive they are to one another how they're validating to
each other and to each other's motherhood instead of being threatened by
one another they really like back one another up right and I love that they
have found a way to within their family like co-parent and make this very child
centric relationship where it's resulted in so much love and trust between the
two of them as well yeah one thing that stands out to me and I think of you know
the first time adoptive parents going into a situation where they might have
nothing in common with the birth parent and in this case you know drugs may have
been involved and anyway there's so many differences between people and it takes
work to connect with people and to form relationships and sometimes you go through
these storms together and you know all for the sake of these kids that connect
us and I think this was just a beautiful story of what happens for kids when
parents adoptive parents biological parents come together and try to create
this relationship this normal for for them and it yeah it takes a lot of work
and sometimes it's scary and sometimes it may feel like unsafe there's all
these emotions and feelings around that but ultimately if we're doing the very
best we can for our kids it's going to bless them over and over and over again
I really love that and I love that idea that as the adults in these relationships
it's on us to really be the grown-ups here right and to forge these
connections and relationships and it's not always going to be easy and it does
it takes both sides working at it right for sure but there was some give and
take throughout the relationship and throughout time as Stevoni was getting
healthy and they were able to give one another this grace and understanding as
they worked and continued to like together strive for this relationship
that they have now and I think often in our lives we'll find that there can be
things that come up that make it hard to keep an open adoption right or to keep a
relationship going that's challenging and maybe emotionally burdensome but if
both parties can really focus on what matters most and that is the children
right if both parties are focusing on the well-being of all of the children
involved then it's going to work and it's going to be worth it and I mean I
want to respect the privacy of other people that were spoken about in the
episode but I just thought it was really poignant at the end that you know she
had had other children that were adopted into different situations where it became
close and you know right when the they turned 18 the immediate thing was let's
connect with our birth birth bomb and yeah that's a natural desire I think I
mean obviously we're not trying to project that onto every person but it
makes sense and we've talked on the show before about how when as adoptive
parents we vilify biological family members or don't talk well about them
around our children or in general like even if our children aren't around
they're going to feel that and they're going to feel like that is part of their
own yes part of their identity and that's like a reflection on them because
we're talking bad about a part of them right and a part of who they are and
it's so important to remember that loving your child also means loving their
biological family and that their biological family is part of them and if
you really want your child to feel your love as an adoptive parent you need to
embrace all of them and that includes all of their family yep even when it's
hard even when it's not convenient you have to do it for the kids sake for sure
yep I'd love how that was painted in this conversation me too and I really
really appreciate that Stevoni is so open and talking about her personal
experiences and challenges with addiction that is something that's a
very prevalent challenge that many people experience but it's not spoken
about very often and it's challenging to talk about and I really appreciate that
she was open about that and shared with us because it's something that happens a
lot especially in the adoption community and there's hope and yeah redemption and
she's an amazing person yeah and she enriches her kids lives and it's this
beautiful lesson that it doesn't like if someone's having a struggle today it
doesn't define the rest of their life yeah and kind of a tangent off of that
they they spoke about this I think it's really important that you know she
wasn't telling the kids yeah Aymee wasn't telling the kids how Stevoni was
quote-unquote sick like I'm doing our quotes right now and then all of a
sudden that sickness led to her going to prison right and so they're both of them
encouraging like tell the truth obviously age appropriately would tell
the truth and she wasn't like lying but yeah and then just making it more
open and transparent I agree that kids can understand a lot more than we give
them credit for yeah I really like the the reference to going to jail or
prison as adult timeout yeah it's like kids connect with them man I think I
could talk forever about this conversation but I'm just super
grateful for again for both of them for being so willing to be just so open and
sharing so much yes I felt like it was such a helpful conversation for me and I
hope it's been helpful for you too yeah thank you so much for your continued
listening we try so hard to provide really good content for the adoption
community and hope that you found this helpful yes as we are wrapping up our
current season we're getting ready for a special November adoption month series
that will be a little bit more frequent than our current episodes and so we'll
have a little more information about that soon and in the meantime if you
would like to rate our podcast or share it with others who might benefit from it
we would love to help other people in their journeys yeah and again we just do
this because we love the adoption community and we want to share people's
perspectives and opinions and ideally just paint the best future for all of
our adoptee friends whether those are our kids or someone else we're connected
to yeah yeah this really started off as us wanting to help people
destigmatize open adoption and find less fear and that possibility and it's grown
into a lot more but I think this episode ties right in right that you can be so
empowered by allowing more love into your life yeah so like Lanette said like
it share it whatever you can to promote the podcast in the adoption space so
that we can help reach more people thanks so much for listening to this
episode of the open adoption project
you