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Welcome to the open adoption project. This is episode 84. We are the Nelsons. I'm Lanette and I'm Sean in today's episode

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We have a wonderful conversation with two amazing women

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Yes today we get to talk to

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Stevoni Doyle and Aymee Condi and they are both incredible

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so

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We should probably explain just because it feels complicated at first but as you listen it it's not I promise

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It's awesome. Yes, so

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Stevoni and

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Aymee are both mothers and

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They share some of their kids and they have like this big

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Like open adoption esque kind of family, but their family started off

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being

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United like this through kinship foster care and then adoption and they'll tell the story more

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But they talk about how it started off

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That they did not like each other and as you'll listen to them

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You can tell that they have an immense love for each other and immense respect and it's really really powerful to hear how their

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Relationship blossomed over time and has grown. I wasn't here

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Personally at our house when we recorded this episode Lanette was here with them in our home

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But I can tell like I don't even have to see them to know how close they are and like how good of friends

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they are like the connection that they have with each other is

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so

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So strong you'll hear that and yet like sincere and palpable. Yeah, it's really powerful. They're

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just

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They capitulate as those goals that I have of

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being able to have

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those strong connections with

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Our family right with our kids biological family who have become part of our family. Yeah

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Well, let's tell a little bit about them and let's jump into the recording. Yeah, so

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Just really quick since this is a longer episode, but it's a really really good one

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So definitely stick them to the end. Yes. Yes stay

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but Stevoni is a roller derby regional champion and

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Aymee is a Burning Man

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Enthusiast with the distinction that she added that she is into like the regional Burning Man and they are both

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really fun

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really

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just like automatically I

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Felt like this connection to them and really liked them. They're very likable and

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Really vulnerable they talk about some really hard feelings and hard experiences

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But they do it in a way that's so positive and just really helpful

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So we're really excited for you to listen to this conversation with Lanette, Aymee and Stevoni

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We're here on the podcast with Stevoni and Aymee. Thank you so much both of you for being here

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So exciting to be here. Thanks for having us. Yeah, so to start off. Can you tell us about yourselves?

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So my name is Aymee Condy I am an adoptive parent

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I have adopted three children to the foster care system

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My first two children came to me when they were six and three and I was 23

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My youngest came to me when he was 13 months old and they are now 27 25 and 16

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so

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And this is my older kids mom

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My name is Stevoni Doyle and I am a birth mother and

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my kids

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went into the foster care system in

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March of

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2001

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They were removed from my care due to me being addicted to methamphetamines and

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Just not caring for my kids properly

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How I guess Aymee and I are related I guess is can't see my quotes here

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Is she was married to my ex-husband my oldest boy's father

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At the time of the removal of my kids, so

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Her and my ex-husband wanted to get custody of my oldest son

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and that's how they got involved in the process of

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Foster care and adoption

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Yeah, so yeah

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Our daughter our shared daughter

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She is not so she's not

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Biologically related, but she was biologically related to a biological relation

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That's how we're kinship family

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And so I was a stepparent and a foster parent for two of stepney's kids basically

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Yeah, and awesome. Yeah

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So those and that we like call those our children because they are our children

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But then like I have my son that I think is separate and then she has her son

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That's a little separate

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But then those two boys like they kind of think of themselves as like a family

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So it's just a big it's just a big family and I don't we didn't start that way

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Um when yeah when Stevoni was going through her drug addiction

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First of all, she was a different person and drugs really like affect people in in ways that change their personalities, but

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Also, just yeah, I think it's interesting about emotional maturity

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And the way that they're able to change their personality

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And then the way that they're able to change their personality is just so different

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So it's just so different

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So that's one of the things that we were talking about earlier

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And then the other thing that we were talking about earlier was the idea that we were both 23 years old

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And we're trying to manage the lives of these like little people and at the time I think we both felt like we were really old

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Mm-hmm

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And then like a three or four years later, oh my gosh that yeah that we would like

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There's no way that I would imagine that I would be sitting next to this person and being like yeah. She's she's great. She's amazing

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I We didn't start out that way. We started out very hostile very much. Like I was the baby stealer and she was the drug addict

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She was my ex-husband's wife. I mean that's a whole yeah, that's a tricky dinam. Yeah

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just a whole different dynamic and and I was also on drugs and so I'm not

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thinking clearly I'm also very selfish as a person because to me all my kids

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needed was me and even though I couldn't care for them properly and I wasn't

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coherent most the time because I was on drugs the selfish part of me was like my

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kids don't belong to anybody else and don't need to be anywhere else and so

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it was it was a dynamic that that she didn't like me and I didn't like her and

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it's kind of how it was at first. Yeah that went on for a long time like maybe

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close to a year of the kids being in care of and then so we had our what's it

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permanency hearing we had our permanency hearing that basically is just to

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decide if what if the children should be adopted or whatever and at that hearing

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I felt like I had like won this great battle you know we were in this war for

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what's in the best interest of the children and I was like super excited

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because now these children were gonna probably likely come to me that was the

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plan that was all those things and and Tyler like our oldest was placed with us

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at that time like that was permanent custody at that time too and so but

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like Stevoni left that exact same hearing with a totally different

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understanding. Yeah I again didn't understand what was going on throughout

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the process mainly because I was on drugs the majority of the time but

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permanency to me what I thought it was is DCFS said we're no longer offering

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services to you and I was like great I don't have to jump through your hoops

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all I have to do now is in jail at the time so this is like kind of where my

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thinking was all I have to do is get out of jail get a job get a house and my

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kids can come home and I was just completely naive about the situation and

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had no idea what was actually happening and what permanency really meant at that

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time. Yeah like Stevoni disappeared for some time it was really there was a lot

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of disruption within that that time when we were there but I felt like so but the

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difference was that I also started to change after permanency so between

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permanency hearing and our termination trial there was like three months of

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time and in that time I went through this drastic emotional shift within me

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that basically I I became a mother and I I for people who've gone through foster

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care I think that they understand this idea but for people who don't understand

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I just imagine that like children that you barely know are just brought to your

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home and then they're like hey love them but like not so much that you can't give

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them back when it's time you're just holding on to them temporarily I felt

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like a babysitter like a 24-7 babysitter that and and at any time all she had to

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do was get those things yeah and we would like I would I would no longer be

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a mother to these children especially for Lexi because I had no ties to her

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otherwise she could have just completely disappeared and so that's our daughter's

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name I don't know if I said that anyway so but I became this mother and it was a

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different a whole different thing I've never been a mom before these were kids

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just hello instant family and so it was I developed this different feeling of

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empathy and compassion because I was also not a perfect mother believe it or not

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23 I had like all of these like flaws but I had to hide those from everyone

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right couldn't let anybody know that I was struggling or having a hard time

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with these kids because then they think I wouldn't I wasn't capable and they

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take them away that's a really it's a challenging dynamic within the foster

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care system of not being able to admit when like things are wrong not being able

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to say I'm struggling and I really was struggling but not again not like to the

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level that they needed to be removed just that I needed I felt ashamed of

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that but when it came time to wear a trial I really had a different vibe about

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Stevoni and as a foster parent you get to sit through the whole the whole trial

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and this is my husband's ex-wife and what it would have betraying awful

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feeling that only as our ex-husband now has developed a new wife do I really

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fully understand that that would have been so terrible but like watching her

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have to testify and have to try to make something out of really nothing there

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was like very little to have a defense about and to be testified against from

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so many different police officers because I've been arrested so many times

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there's probably an officer from like every city in the county there and my

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daughter's dad saying a bunch of awful untrue stuff you know the majority of

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what had happened was true that the DCFS brought and stuff like that but just it

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was just you're under every one of your flaws is under a microscope and you are

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just sitting in a courtroom full of people with person after person saying

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how awful of a person you are and how awful of a mother you are which is

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something that should just be like I guess like as a woman I felt like the

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one thing that should be natural to me to be a good mom and a protective mom

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and a caring mom I fail that and I think that's when things started to shift for

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me with Aymee as well was during that trial I think I started to realize

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listening to all of that negative stuff about me that that I was being selfish

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and I couldn't offer my kids what they needed it took a couple of days I'm

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sorry to interrupt but like the first day like when I went so I had to testify

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and in the middle of my testimony like they asked me how I felt about my

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daughter who wasn't my daughter at that time but it doesn't ask me how I felt

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about it and I said that I felt really like she was completing our family and

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Stevoni could not tolerate that all slams her hands down on the table

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disrupts the whole courtroom gets in huge trouble like while I'm on the

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witness stand it was just so we didn't like each other not a smart thing to do

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in court either just just not but so yeah because we had to go for one day

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and then date like weeks pass and you come in for another day of trial it was

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so such a weird thing it was awful but I think we both had these shifts because

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I've spent the first day feeling sorry for Stevoni and like actually like

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calculating through my life if I had done just this one little choice

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different yeah or anything I could have easily ended up in the same place with

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four kids by the time I was 21 years old and why did you get it why did you

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develop a meth problem that's such a surprise and a shock yeah that's so easy

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I know it's such an easy life you had well and having those four kids under

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the age of four and then there my daughter's dad left and I was working at

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a bar and the manager of the bar who was like a 40 something year old man but hey

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you try this instantly I was addicted it's pretty easy and I I had experienced

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some things that I was like all I would if I had gotten caught doing that or if

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this had that we weren't that far apart and more importantly that like love is

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separate from being able to parent that was my first experience of like

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distinguishing between those two things because she had like a picture of the

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kids that said like hope on it and there was like no hope here but how do you give

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up hope as a mother how do you let that go and and finally seeing her in a mother

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we are the same yeah and yeah that also realizing that this tragic thing is

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happening a family is being ripped apart forever and I had no idea what that was

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even I had no concept of what that could even feel like but that's what was

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happening right there in my family I had to go home and tell my kids like a judge

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decided that your mom's not your mom anymore and not both of them either

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like that was a really confusing piece because she's still Tyler's legal mother

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that never had to change because yeah it just didn't but because now this person

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I'm gonna be on this kid's birth certificate but not this kid's birth

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certificate and explaining all of that was just it was tragic and I didn't know

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what to do with it but that like the tragedy was happening in front of me to

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this woman that I felt a lot of empathy for suddenly I only I have to call it

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like a divine intervention I know I mean just I didn't have that capability to do

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that there's nothing it just came through it came back later well no what

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like so she comes and we end court you lose your rights and we're walking out of

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court and these are just like as I'm like remembering these memories it's

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like such a disgusting feeling of just tragicness but she comes running toward

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me and I honestly thought maybe she was coming to hit me like she just lost

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lost the rights to her kids and instead she like wraps her arms around me and

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just hugs me and says take care of our kids I'm like you know I will but it was

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like this passing of a thing but also my whole body said why is this why do we

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have to do this but she really was addicted to drugs and so that's why we

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had to do it but yeah sorry you go well and and she talked about like divine

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intervention I think about that moment and what caused me to do that like I

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don't it was some sort of something pushing me and saying hey you you need

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to tell this person to take care of our kids or whatever and and I think it was

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also me just also passing the torch to her and saying it's okay for you to be

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their mother I mean we still have like lots of weirdness and awkwardness for a

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long time but it you know it just I finally started to wake up a little bit

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no you know I wasn't what was best for them and you know after the trial things

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kind of a kind of went on my own way and I think it's probably like three or four

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months after the trial I had committed a lot of crimes and it was getting close

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to me being sentenced for for these crimes but I figured out of the blue

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maybe I should call them because I had their phone number I mean you know it's

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my ex-husband I knew their number and just see if she'll talk to me about the

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kids like I didn't expect anything from it in fact to be honest she could have

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what I expected was her just to hang up on me you know she didn't have to talk

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to me and we when I called her we talked for a long time on the phone and both

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talked about our fears of it was the first time that we've been vulnerable in

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any way shape or form yeah I was always been guarded and it was the first time

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that we'd actually interacted without like a bunch of other people like DCFS

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people were looking or attorneys or just gross things that make everything

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complicated so I think it was a time to be vulnerable and yeah so I go ahead it

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was just that was it like we both realized that I think that we both loved

225
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those kids and and that we both have like the exact same fears like my biggest

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fear was that my kids would forget about me and not want me at any of the

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important events in their life and wouldn't care and her biggest fear was

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that all the kids would want is me there and wouldn't want wouldn't care if she

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was there and that was just I guess it was really kind of interesting so we

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talked for a long time and then she like did something crazily amazing and invited

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me to come over and see the kids I'm super impulsive yeah and I so I went

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over there and I got to see the kids and they were so excited to see me and they

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were so like excited about to show me everything in their house and and they

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took me to their room and I went in their bedroom and they had a picture of

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me hanging up on their wall and it was a healthy picture of when I was younger

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and I felt like she had not let them forget me and kind of invited me to

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still be a part of their lives by having that picture hanging in the room and

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that was just just like a really amazing moment for me I was just really

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overwhelmed to see that and I think that's kind of the start of everything

240
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yeah I think we we accepted that we both could be there that it was our issue

241
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yeah it was our inability to like tolerate our own emotions and or be safe

242
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like that was another thing so I in that conversation we talked about and I don't

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think that in the moment there's no way that we knew this was gonna be such a

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meaningful conversation that would like guide our whole whatever for the next

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whatever long but it really was like I said to her you've got because at this

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time she was still doing a lot of things that were very unpredictable and unsafe

247
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yeah you know and so like you need to have some some sobriety you need to

248
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have like be working on things but more importantly when you tell the kids that

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you're gonna come you're gonna show up because we've done things before that

250
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they've not like she's not shown up to things and it's just so that's really

251
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hard yeah it's hard it like with our daughter's biological dad there's a

252
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whole side story to this but he kept he would keep promising to show up and

253
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never showed up and like this went on for his for just a long time and he just

254
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had to finally be like no you don't get access anymore because you can't you

255
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can't keep promising a little person that's not fair it's not okay it's

256
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better for you to be away yeah but that you would you know stop promising

257
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things that you couldn't deliver on but they would be honest and just that we we

258
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could envision just even imagine I think in today's this is 20 years ago in today's

259
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society the idea of co-parenting is so popular and everybody knows what they're

260
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doing this was not a foreign that was not a thing was the 90s and open

261
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adoptions to was not a thing not at all the state of Utah especially it was just

262
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you know it was because Utah has closed adoptions I don't think that's changed

263
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at all there's I know that they've really pushed for open adoption there

264
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wasn't a legal way to have an adult open adoption there is now okay so and like

265
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we haven't mentioned that she had to we haven't really mentioned that she had

266
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two other children the twins that are a year younger than Lexi but that like that

267
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shift and the the differences between those things and I guess we can compare

268
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that a little later in the story but I at the time it was really important to

269
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me that 70 be a consistent piece even if it was just once a year or letters or

270
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whatever that looked like find where you're gonna be but for right now come

271
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and visit because you know they really want to see you there was no way and I

272
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mean I don't think anyone should erase your adoption history I don't I think

273
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you should tell your children their adoption story every single moment you

274
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have a chance it's their life story but I think it was really challenging to

275
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give a story for what was happening because this isn't supposed to happen

276
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adoption really like infant adoption that's a whole different thing but

277
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something tragic has to happen in our family for our family to even exist yeah

278
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and so telling our story to our kids about our kids has been helpful but also

279
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I think it's important to just have that piece that says this is why we did it

280
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and I couldn't erase her I couldn't just say like you know what guys I'm your new

281
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mom that other person she's not your mom but here's the thing that really shocks

282
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me is that there's people out there in the world who believe that is true and

283
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still to this day believe that is true it it never will it you can't just erase

284
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someone's history or give it like people who give new names like the twins got

285
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new names when they were adopted when they're finally adopted at seven they

286
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got new first names and they also got cut off from seeing their siblings which

287
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you know they have that right and and I don't want to like diss them and in fact

288
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I've gotten to know them really well in the last probably five years five years

289
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and so I understand a lot of more why they did what they did but that was

290
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really difficult for the girls and for especially for Tyler and Lexi because

291
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they were old enough to remember their siblings so you know like here's two

292
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here's two of your sisters who just they exist in some place in this county maybe

293
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we'll bump into them but one day when we did bump into them their mom literally

294
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dragged them away like wouldn't let us talk to them and I I used to really try

295
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to try to feel a lot of empathy for that but that really was like from my

296
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perspective the wrong thing to do I can't come up with how that was an okay

297
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thing to do yeah it really it hurt my children and I so from from from our

298
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perspective even at that time when open adoption wasn't being promoted there was

299
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no way that we could consider anything but an ocean an open adoption and if

300
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we're gonna have to do that for the rest of our lives why not make it

301
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reasonable yes tolerable and even the as we as we grew now Stevoni went to

302
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prison for a long time a little over two years total yeah well you tell your

303
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presence right actually three years so after that phone call we started doing

304
00:26:33,660 --> 00:26:42,020
visits and Aymee had been taking our kids to my family reunion which was a huge

305
00:26:42,020 --> 00:26:51,420
thing while I was not there and and so they she was maintaining that

306
00:26:51,420 --> 00:26:57,460
relationship with my family and so we just kind of got to know each other a

307
00:26:57,460 --> 00:27:01,900
little bit more I was still using so like three months after the yes so we

308
00:27:01,900 --> 00:27:06,020
started developing a relationship and started talking and then I got

309
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sentenced to probation federally and then to do a year in Utah County Jail and

310
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three years probation so we decided to invite Aymee and the kids to a dinner my

311
00:27:22,180 --> 00:27:28,780
going away party and we took our kids to Sizzler and my mom and everybody was

312
00:27:28,780 --> 00:27:32,560
there because I was going to turn myself in the next day I want to add in the

313
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telling the truth okay yeah okay so from where we talked about the story tell

314
00:27:37,900 --> 00:27:44,620
right now like having a story to tell so one of the things that that I did

315
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thinking I was protecting my kids was to tell them not the truth and lie

316
00:27:49,700 --> 00:27:53,740
necessarily I just said things like your mom's sick and she's going away to

317
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places to get better and like kind of painting it over in a weird way that to

318
00:28:00,540 --> 00:28:05,540
me made their little tender hearts hear it better but what it actually did was

319
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really confused them and I found that out when mom didn't get better she's now

320
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having like she's going away to jail and now we have to talk about what that

321
00:28:14,220 --> 00:28:18,460
means and I realized during this time about the importance of like telling the

322
00:28:18,460 --> 00:28:22,620
truth about drugs that kids really can understand drugs even if they're only

323
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four years old yeah and that they can understand the concept of like making a

324
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bad choice and meeting like a grown-up timeout and so we really started at that

325
00:28:32,820 --> 00:28:37,940
time to really tell our story in more honest and genuine ways which was really

326
00:28:37,940 --> 00:28:43,100
a valuable piece yes so that when it came time for you to go to jail yes yes

327
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so we went out to dinner by this time the kids were very comfortable with the

328
00:28:47,820 --> 00:28:54,300
fact that I was going to jail and our kids have never been quiet and never

329
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been shy so we're in Sizzler and the lady comes up and Tyler's all my mom's

330
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going to jail tomorrow and just telling her and so that's why we're here at

331
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dinner yeah we don't really live with her yeah you know yeah they're just

332
00:29:09,100 --> 00:29:19,620
really open and honest with people so I went to jail and Aymee decided well

333
00:29:19,620 --> 00:29:24,660
especially our oldest boy Tyler was very nervous about me being in jail he

334
00:29:24,660 --> 00:29:28,660
thought it was you know like you see on TV where they give you like bread and

335
00:29:28,660 --> 00:29:33,340
water and slide it under the door and you're in an old like pit or whatever

336
00:29:33,340 --> 00:29:38,380
with so he was nervous and so she started driving by the jail saying hey

337
00:29:38,380 --> 00:29:43,420
look it's just a building this is what it is and and Tyler asked her well why

338
00:29:43,420 --> 00:29:48,060
can't we just go in and so yeah I'll let you tell that part because I think it's

339
00:29:48,060 --> 00:29:52,900
pretty interesting well again to to really try it was hard we had to build a

340
00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:56,140
relationship with someone who's literally locked away in a building and

341
00:29:56,140 --> 00:30:00,380
we're going through therapy we're doing all of that stuff trying to you know

342
00:30:00,380 --> 00:30:07,420
manage this this tragic thing that had happened so yeah deciding to go visit in

343
00:30:07,420 --> 00:30:14,740
jail I got so much like negative feedback from people and I laugh about

344
00:30:14,740 --> 00:30:18,700
it because I think I think people just haven't really considered it they they

345
00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:22,300
live in their bubble and like here in this valley a lot of people live in a

346
00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:26,900
lot of different bubbles which is fine but they don't really include jail visits

347
00:30:26,900 --> 00:30:31,900
in those bubbles but like people would say to me you know if you take your kids

348
00:30:31,900 --> 00:30:35,300
to the jail they're gonna think that it's okay to go to jail and they're

349
00:30:35,300 --> 00:30:39,980
gonna be like fine breaking the law when they're adults and there was a little

350
00:30:39,980 --> 00:30:45,740
bit of me that was like me that's true but what if it's not what if like they

351
00:30:45,740 --> 00:30:49,180
need to see that their mom's okay what if that's actually way more important

352
00:30:49,180 --> 00:30:54,100
that like we have to make gel okay because mom's there talk about play

353
00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:59,460
therapy with Tyler yeah so Tyler yeah Tyler would he would take me we were

354
00:30:59,460 --> 00:31:03,500
doing this thing called filial therapy which is a caregiver and the child and

355
00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:09,380
then the therapist like watches and so we he had this routine and I mean it was

356
00:31:09,380 --> 00:31:12,860
like it didn't take a master's degree honestly if what's wrong with this child

357
00:31:12,860 --> 00:31:19,100
but like he would grab all of the like police stuff and then he'd arrest me and

358
00:31:19,100 --> 00:31:24,260
then he would take me over to the corner and then tell me how bad I was and I was

359
00:31:24,260 --> 00:31:30,540
in jail and I'd be like okay and then he would go get every food item in the

360
00:31:30,540 --> 00:31:36,460
play therapy room to bring to me to give me all of the food like to take care of

361
00:31:36,460 --> 00:31:42,420
me right so the kind that this like punishing police officer kind jailer and

362
00:31:42,420 --> 00:31:47,100
this went like over and over that happened multiple times and like that's

363
00:31:47,100 --> 00:31:54,180
just not he needs to know that his mom's okay in jail maybe so I yeah I figured

364
00:31:54,180 --> 00:31:58,900
out how to do family visits and we we figured that out and that what was that

365
00:31:58,900 --> 00:32:03,340
that was that was outside of my comfort zone I'm gonna put it that way but when

366
00:32:03,340 --> 00:32:08,380
when I looked at is this harming my children yes they are sad yes they are

367
00:32:08,380 --> 00:32:12,860
like distressed that you know their life isn't the way it is but really their

368
00:32:12,860 --> 00:32:17,380
life isn't the way it is and we have to like find ways to make that okay like

369
00:32:17,380 --> 00:32:22,540
probably two or three visits in Lexi's like skipping down to whatever this ski

370
00:32:22,540 --> 00:32:26,420
resort is called yeah at the Utah County jail they name all the places after ski

371
00:32:26,420 --> 00:32:35,780
resorts which is just me like you you're housed in snowbird but yeah so she's

372
00:32:35,780 --> 00:32:40,060
like skipping down there and you're like meeting between the glass it's literally

373
00:32:40,060 --> 00:32:43,820
how you see it on they don't even do that anymore anyway but yeah on its

374
00:32:43,820 --> 00:32:48,320
little phone thing it's just exactly like you see it on television but this

375
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,940
is their mom and all of a sudden she started to look a little bit healthier

376
00:32:51,940 --> 00:32:57,260
yes she wasn't having a lot of access to math yeah like I started to put on some

377
00:32:57,260 --> 00:33:03,140
weight and that I call it the the soul comes back the light comes back in the

378
00:33:03,140 --> 00:33:06,260
eyes because there's something about when somebody's doing drugs that they've

379
00:33:06,260 --> 00:33:12,380
just got this vacant yeah I don't know and so you know they got to see that

380
00:33:12,380 --> 00:33:17,780
light come back on and they got to see me get healthy and it was amazing to that

381
00:33:17,780 --> 00:33:23,060
she would bring them there to visit me and you know I always look forward to

382
00:33:23,060 --> 00:33:26,980
those visits and and we started to develop a little bit of a relationship I

383
00:33:26,980 --> 00:33:37,180
was only in gel for I think about seven months and gel is what I call I haven't

384
00:33:37,180 --> 00:33:40,100
been there in years and I don't ever want to go back to find out what it's

385
00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:44,940
like now but it's a very stagnant place where it was and you're constantly

386
00:33:44,940 --> 00:33:49,700
bombarded with people coming in off the street that are high or that are

387
00:33:49,700 --> 00:33:54,700
detoxing from drugs and you're just around the same people that that you use

388
00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:58,940
with and you get in trouble with and I didn't put any effort into really

389
00:33:58,940 --> 00:34:05,260
changing my life so when I was released from jail I was using again within two

390
00:34:05,260 --> 00:34:08,940
weeks I didn't change anything about my life I didn't change the people that I

391
00:34:08,940 --> 00:34:18,740
hung out with I just nothing changed so Aymee and Reid started like you know

392
00:34:18,740 --> 00:34:23,460
immediately having visits with me when I got out of jail and I think that kind of

393
00:34:23,460 --> 00:34:29,980
rushed into they may have kind of rushed into things a little bit but I think so

394
00:34:29,980 --> 00:34:34,700
at the time I really believed that it was safe yeah right because you weren't

395
00:34:34,700 --> 00:34:38,460
with the kids alone ever really like your brother was always there your mom

396
00:34:38,460 --> 00:34:42,740
was blocks away I know I don't know that it was necessarily unsafe I think I

397
00:34:42,740 --> 00:34:47,020
think I was naive I think that I thought because yeah you'd been away from meth

398
00:34:47,020 --> 00:34:53,260
why would you go back to this drug like yeah I were both yeah yeah I I thought

399
00:34:53,260 --> 00:34:58,620
for sure that anybody who had gone that long in jail without the drug in their

400
00:34:58,620 --> 00:35:02,260
body yeah that they would be recovered yeah but that that would just be the

401
00:35:02,260 --> 00:35:09,860
magical cure right just time and so that was you know that was kind of naive on

402
00:35:09,860 --> 00:35:17,380
everyone's part let's again remember that we are like 25 years old what we

403
00:35:17,380 --> 00:35:21,060
were younger than that no the kids can't live with me and I'm 23 and this is like

404
00:35:21,060 --> 00:35:26,500
two years later so like 24 25 the same age that's what we're trying for cuz I

405
00:35:26,500 --> 00:35:30,340
went to prison when I was 24 there you go okay I mean so let's let's just

406
00:35:30,340 --> 00:35:34,780
calculate I often have to do this calculation I know you're in our young

407
00:35:34,780 --> 00:35:38,980
20s I know it's crazy and we're just like why didn't we know that I know oh I

408
00:35:38,980 --> 00:35:43,660
don't know but yeah so I think we jumped into I think the kids were really

409
00:35:43,660 --> 00:35:48,460
excited they were really excited that you were gonna be around yeah and and

410
00:35:48,460 --> 00:35:52,100
they didn't have to go to the jail anymore yeah and I could touch them and

411
00:35:52,100 --> 00:35:57,340
yeah you know play with them and unfortunately that didn't last I I think

412
00:35:57,340 --> 00:36:03,940
I made it three months before I was arrested again and I was on both state

413
00:36:03,940 --> 00:36:08,540
probation and federal probation so when I was arrested again I was violated on

414
00:36:08,540 --> 00:36:20,860
both of those probations so when I got arrested again in March of 2004 I was

415
00:36:20,860 --> 00:36:27,180
sentenced to zero to five years in Utah State Prison so I was transferred up to

416
00:36:27,180 --> 00:36:35,060
Utah State Prison and Aymee and I decided that while I was in prison that it would

417
00:36:35,060 --> 00:36:39,620
be best if we didn't do in-person visits because the kids could be subject to

418
00:36:39,620 --> 00:36:45,140
some pretty scary things like full-body searches or if something were to happen

419
00:36:45,140 --> 00:36:50,540
while they're there we just we just felt both of us felt it just wasn't a good

420
00:36:50,540 --> 00:36:55,700
thing but we started like I would call them all the time I would write letters

421
00:36:55,700 --> 00:37:00,300
Aymee would write letters to me we started kind of really to develop Aymee and I

422
00:37:00,300 --> 00:37:04,580
started to develop more of a relationship one-on-one when I went to

423
00:37:04,580 --> 00:37:11,940
prison through letters and phone calls and I was getting I got released from

424
00:37:11,940 --> 00:37:19,180
Utah State Prison after 16 months and I was transferred to a federal holding

425
00:37:19,180 --> 00:37:28,740
facility in Daggett County this waiting for me to be sentenced on my federal

426
00:37:28,740 --> 00:37:36,500
stuff and I had talked to my probation officer and my attorney and they're like

427
00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:40,580
listen they're probably just gonna reinstate your probation and let you

428
00:37:40,580 --> 00:37:46,380
out you've done this much time so I was really excited to get out and then it

429
00:37:46,380 --> 00:37:52,940
was the day before Mother's Day and I got a call over the PA that I had a

430
00:37:52,940 --> 00:37:57,740
contact visit and I was like this has got to be like my probation officer or

431
00:37:57,740 --> 00:38:03,940
my lawyer or something and I walked into the room and Aymee had driven figured out

432
00:38:03,940 --> 00:38:08,140
how to get a contact visit driven for three and a half hours with our children

433
00:38:08,140 --> 00:38:13,540
just so they didn't have to go another Mother's Day without seeing me and I

434
00:38:13,540 --> 00:38:18,260
think that solidified my relationship with her that this person truly loves

435
00:38:18,260 --> 00:38:24,620
our children and she loves me too she's not gonna do that you know just you know

436
00:38:24,620 --> 00:38:29,660
for the heck of it and I was so amazed that I got to touch these kids that I

437
00:38:29,660 --> 00:38:33,700
hadn't touched in over 16 months and you know got to see them and how big they

438
00:38:33,700 --> 00:38:37,780
are and we made all these plans for when I was gonna get out because I was going

439
00:38:37,780 --> 00:38:41,860
to court on Monday and it was just an amazing experience that she would do

440
00:38:41,860 --> 00:38:49,300
that but come Monday I had to make a pretty devastating phone call the

441
00:38:49,300 --> 00:38:53,900
federal judge said hey I'm afraid if I let you out and reinstate your probation

442
00:38:53,900 --> 00:38:57,460
you're just gonna violate again so I'm gonna send it to you to a year and a day

443
00:38:57,460 --> 00:39:03,060
in federal prison and when they take you to federal prison they immediately take

444
00:39:03,060 --> 00:39:08,420
you and put you on Con Air so you're like handcuffed in an airplane and you

445
00:39:08,420 --> 00:39:12,140
end up in a federal holding facility in Oklahoma so I had to call that night and

446
00:39:12,140 --> 00:39:19,260
say I'm not coming home for in federal time you do like 80% of your time and so

447
00:39:19,260 --> 00:39:26,540
I was like at least another 11 months I was devastating but I am actually truly

448
00:39:26,540 --> 00:39:31,940
thankful that I did go to federal prison I don't know if I was ready to get out

449
00:39:31,940 --> 00:39:40,900
at that time yeah I mean Stevoni makes a joke sometimes she'll say like if

450
00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:45,300
you're gonna go to prison go to federal prison yeah I agree it's the best of the

451
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:53,180
prisons yes like she was she was out in Phoenix in this like work camp there

452
00:39:53,180 --> 00:39:59,380
aren't any fences there's like just the city that is run by the inmates and it

453
00:39:59,380 --> 00:40:02,780
was really interesting to see her grow and change within that community-based

454
00:40:02,780 --> 00:40:07,380
environment I yeah I'm a strong proponent for that because it really

455
00:40:07,380 --> 00:40:11,580
did help her she'd done some schooling like she got her high school diploma and

456
00:40:11,580 --> 00:40:16,380
in state prison but like federal prison she had a job she learned a trade she

457
00:40:16,380 --> 00:40:23,820
learned all of these things and also her desire for improvement was so obvious

458
00:40:23,820 --> 00:40:31,700
there was like yeah it wasn't just there was some responsibility like I think one

459
00:40:31,700 --> 00:40:35,660
of the things that you were talking about about what changed and how how are

460
00:40:35,660 --> 00:40:39,020
we able to make this happen if Stevoni was still in that blaming

461
00:40:39,020 --> 00:40:43,340
stage where she used to be you know like if that caseworker hadn't done this or

462
00:40:43,340 --> 00:40:50,340
if that whatever I'd have my kids sorry no it's true that's where I was so but

463
00:40:50,340 --> 00:40:54,540
in federal prison there was some accountability there was some shifts in

464
00:40:54,540 --> 00:41:00,900
like responsibility there was some maturity emotionally yeah there was a

465
00:41:00,900 --> 00:41:06,860
maturity emotionally for me as well in that like seeing and envisioning that I

466
00:41:06,860 --> 00:41:11,460
could be friends with this person wasn't just like before that I was mostly doing

467
00:41:11,460 --> 00:41:16,460
it for my kids sacrificing like my time and my things for my kids that's what

468
00:41:16,460 --> 00:41:22,260
you do as a mom but I began to care about Stevoni in different ways like I

469
00:41:22,260 --> 00:41:27,060
really was invested in her being successful because if her if she was

470
00:41:27,060 --> 00:41:31,820
successful all of us would have more success our whole family would be better

471
00:41:31,820 --> 00:41:37,140
off if she could be better off and really believing that she could do it and

472
00:41:37,140 --> 00:41:41,900
that like when she got out of federal prison it was it was amazing she even

473
00:41:41,900 --> 00:41:48,460
chose to stay longer which was so weird they offered me to get out early to go

474
00:41:48,460 --> 00:41:52,900
to a halfway house and I was too scared of getting out and messing up at a

475
00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:56,940
halfway house because if I would have messed up I would have gotten new

476
00:41:56,940 --> 00:42:02,020
charges and I wouldn't have gotten out of the federal system so I was like nope

477
00:42:02,020 --> 00:42:07,900
I'm just gonna stay the extra month and terminate my case but that the feds

478
00:42:07,900 --> 00:42:15,060
because I was so paranoid about me making a mistake so but coming home was

479
00:42:15,060 --> 00:42:19,900
amazing I think all of us were super excited they threw me what's called like

480
00:42:19,900 --> 00:42:28,100
a coming out party which is pretty awesome that actually concludes chapter one so there is

481
00:42:28,100 --> 00:42:34,100
there is a chapter two so yeah when you came home it really was like a different

482
00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:38,300
a different chapter a different chapter in our lives you were in such a

483
00:42:38,300 --> 00:42:43,420
radically different place than even the year that you've been there before and so

484
00:42:43,420 --> 00:42:51,660
it was it was really good to experience that connectedness but I was I was 100%

485
00:42:51,660 --> 00:42:57,940
invested in your well-being and I I don't regret that investment at all I just I

486
00:42:57,940 --> 00:43:03,380
had to do an assignment I'm in grad school right now and I had to do an

487
00:43:03,380 --> 00:43:11,180
assignment in my cultural diversity class about who is one of the most like in

488
00:43:11,180 --> 00:43:16,780
influential supports in your life and I couldn't there wasn't like of course my

489
00:43:16,780 --> 00:43:20,780
mom you know but like everybody says your mom whatever but I had to think

490
00:43:20,780 --> 00:43:25,100
like who is a person that has been there and I had to choose her because I don't

491
00:43:25,100 --> 00:43:28,980
know where I'd be without her because she invested so much in my recovery and

492
00:43:28,980 --> 00:43:33,220
was so supportive of me through like every step and so I had to like copy of

493
00:43:33,220 --> 00:43:35,940
the assignment and send it to her because I was like I just need you to

494
00:43:35,940 --> 00:43:41,260
know this but it's just she did she supported me and then we started to

495
00:43:41,260 --> 00:43:47,420
build our relationship um I got a coming out party yes tell that story so well at

496
00:43:47,420 --> 00:43:53,620
this point we're kind of normalized in our little family right nobody nobody's

497
00:43:53,620 --> 00:43:57,980
feeling super awkward so we have a family we have a we have a party her

498
00:43:57,980 --> 00:44:01,460
coming out party she just gotten a job and started a job and so like things

499
00:44:01,460 --> 00:44:05,460
were really looking up because it was really hard for you to find a job and so

500
00:44:05,460 --> 00:44:10,400
she's worse like hanging out together and that so that's her ex-husband my

501
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:15,140
current husband and our two children right it's really interesting little

502
00:44:15,140 --> 00:44:19,980
thing but we were all we were all fine yeah this guy from work calls her and

503
00:44:19,980 --> 00:44:23,380
it's like hey what are you doing what's up I'd like take you out she's like well

504
00:44:23,380 --> 00:44:28,140
I'm hanging out my ex-husband's house would you like to come over and like he

505
00:44:28,140 --> 00:44:35,280
was like hard pass but things she's married to that guy now but like it was

506
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:40,520
it was just sometimes we'd get wake-up calls like when we go out in public or

507
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,740
something you know there'd be this mom mom thing and this was way before it was

508
00:44:43,740 --> 00:44:48,900
cool to be lesbian you know and so it just people would give us strange looks

509
00:44:48,900 --> 00:44:51,540
and all sorts of stuff when we go out with our husband we just look really

510
00:44:51,540 --> 00:44:58,820
infertile polygamous you know but like it I think when we finally said like we

511
00:44:58,820 --> 00:45:03,700
didn't actually care what other people thought that was a big step in in at

512
00:45:03,700 --> 00:45:07,660
least at that time because yeah I would introduce I'd be like oh I was hanging

513
00:45:07,660 --> 00:45:12,020
out with Stevoni and people would look at me so weird like why why are you

514
00:45:12,020 --> 00:45:15,740
doing that why are you going and hanging out with her like you weren't even on a

515
00:45:15,740 --> 00:45:18,860
visit with the kids you did it like you just went and did stuff because you

516
00:45:18,860 --> 00:45:26,540
enjoy her yeah but that's that's really what it took I think for us to move

517
00:45:26,540 --> 00:45:32,740
through and be where we are is we had to actually care about each other in in a

518
00:45:32,740 --> 00:45:36,300
different way that wasn't about like oh well we just get together because of the

519
00:45:36,300 --> 00:45:40,780
kids but yeah we did get together because of the kids I think we get

520
00:45:40,780 --> 00:45:44,780
together a lot less now certainly because the kids are adults and it's

521
00:45:44,780 --> 00:45:49,620
just not but when they were little like we would spend so we decided that

522
00:45:49,620 --> 00:45:55,340
Christmas we didn't want to have two Christmases it's so dumb and so we she

523
00:45:55,340 --> 00:45:58,660
would come to my house and spend the night on Christmas morning and like as a

524
00:45:58,660 --> 00:46:06,020
kids got older I went to her house like just it we built our family in routines

525
00:46:06,020 --> 00:46:12,980
and in acceptance and belonging yes I love that that we all belong we all

526
00:46:12,980 --> 00:46:18,060
belong just simply because we we decided to do this all together hey yeah and I

527
00:46:18,060 --> 00:46:25,500
don't think our kids I I do think that our kids are way better because of it

528
00:46:25,500 --> 00:46:32,180
because they never had to choose they never had to feel like oh I I need to do

529
00:46:32,180 --> 00:46:38,380
this for my mom or for well I was mommy she was mom that's what they call us

530
00:46:38,380 --> 00:46:42,700
even like they would use our names like they still do yeah my kids call me Aymee

531
00:46:42,700 --> 00:46:47,140
or mom yeah and I do not hear the difference I don't either and so it's

532
00:46:47,140 --> 00:46:50,980
just it became this like really and what was so funny when they were little

533
00:46:50,980 --> 00:46:55,620
sometimes they would say mom and neither one of us we would just like oh I thought

534
00:46:55,620 --> 00:47:01,740
you were talking to her so yeah that that title like oh man when Lexi first

535
00:47:01,740 --> 00:47:06,260
called me mom I'm gonna go back for a second first time Lexi called me mom was

536
00:47:06,260 --> 00:47:13,180
in front of Stevoni which was so hard and awkward but when you let go of those

537
00:47:13,180 --> 00:47:20,060
titles when you let go of needing to be the mom or the dad and you're like oh

538
00:47:20,060 --> 00:47:23,820
I'm a mom yeah yeah just the other day when I introduced you like this is my

539
00:47:23,820 --> 00:47:26,620
kid's mom and you're like and this is my kid's mom yeah we just love to make

540
00:47:26,620 --> 00:47:33,820
people's eyes go what are you this lesbian yeah yeah it just what she's

541
00:47:33,820 --> 00:47:38,020
right once you let go of that like jealousy and and our kids gained from

542
00:47:38,020 --> 00:47:44,060
that they came to moms and two dads and multiple sets of grandparents and you

543
00:47:44,060 --> 00:47:49,780
know never had to choose oh I'm gonna go to Christmas here or spend this holiday

544
00:47:49,780 --> 00:47:53,460
here or spend my birthday here I mean we celebrated their birthdays together it

545
00:47:53,460 --> 00:47:59,060
was just it was everything and you know it's just amazing and I think I think

546
00:47:59,060 --> 00:48:04,060
that was the best gift that we could give our kids yeah was to have that and

547
00:48:04,060 --> 00:48:10,020
and I'll tell you right now like our kids have their own little issues they're

548
00:48:10,020 --> 00:48:18,100
young adults but they are probably the most like well-adjusted when it comes to

549
00:48:18,100 --> 00:48:24,420
not abusing substances they want nothing to do with that not in any type of

550
00:48:24,420 --> 00:48:28,300
criminal trouble at all in fact you know they are very yeah they never went to

551
00:48:28,300 --> 00:48:32,620
jail yeah we're weird I know so far well and it'll be okay if they do yeah yeah

552
00:48:32,620 --> 00:48:44,900
just very and and emotionally compassionate to people I so I worked

553
00:48:44,900 --> 00:48:49,300
what some after I adopted the kids the DCFS felt like this place that I should

554
00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:54,140
work for 10 years so I did my time there but like I've seen so many different

555
00:48:54,140 --> 00:49:00,300
ways to adopt and so many different people who have perceptions about

556
00:49:00,300 --> 00:49:07,700
adoption and I was really always blown away like people would think if I just

557
00:49:07,700 --> 00:49:12,340
do these things right if I just do these things then it will erase all of that

558
00:49:12,340 --> 00:49:18,380
trauma and in some ways I bought into that sometimes too but I think what

559
00:49:18,380 --> 00:49:24,620
really helped us was to find acceptance for what had happened like I don't think

560
00:49:24,620 --> 00:49:28,900
our kids are ashamed of your story I think if anything they let they're like

561
00:49:28,900 --> 00:49:37,660
you know my one mom's been to prison yeah but like I there's no there's

562
00:49:37,660 --> 00:49:42,500
nothing to hide there's no even if there is there was a few times when they were

563
00:49:42,500 --> 00:49:46,700
teenagers that they would like triangulate us and and then we'd be

564
00:49:46,700 --> 00:49:54,460
like what I'm not gonna mention any names but like they or you know sometimes

565
00:49:54,460 --> 00:49:57,860
it would be like well I'm gonna go over to Stevoni's house because I can do

566
00:49:57,860 --> 00:50:02,500
that over there and then she would have to call me and say hey this is what they

567
00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:08,740
said and I'm really that's bull crap and we did that I guess that's an kind of

568
00:50:08,740 --> 00:50:15,220
what we did so we really co-parented our kids and they would come over and

569
00:50:15,220 --> 00:50:21,260
spend time with me and we physically when we would do drop-off and pick up we

570
00:50:21,260 --> 00:50:26,500
would have a big conversation we usually hung out for an hour or so while we did

571
00:50:26,500 --> 00:50:30,940
that and it was constant communication about what the kids were doing what

572
00:50:30,940 --> 00:50:36,500
behaviors they were having you know we called each other all the time most of

573
00:50:36,500 --> 00:50:41,100
the time the kids did not pull anything on us but it did happen a couple times

574
00:50:41,100 --> 00:50:45,420
as they got a little bit older to do that trying those boundaries you know

575
00:50:45,420 --> 00:50:50,100
figure out if you're safe or not but like it was it as you know even through

576
00:50:50,100 --> 00:50:54,820
the really there were really challenging parts I don't I don't think that we had

577
00:50:54,820 --> 00:50:58,620
kids that were just easy there were some things that were really challenging and

578
00:50:58,620 --> 00:51:04,780
if I hadn't had Stevoni they're sitting in the courtrooms with me sitting

579
00:51:04,780 --> 00:51:09,260
in all of those things with me I I don't know what I would have done I would have

580
00:51:09,260 --> 00:51:14,140
been so lost I these people that are that don't understand you're gaining

581
00:51:14,140 --> 00:51:19,700
you're gaining an extra parent yes when I needed respite hey go to your mom

582
00:51:19,700 --> 00:51:24,660
yep and and trusting in that and feeling like that was okay and that didn't

583
00:51:24,660 --> 00:51:28,420
happen overnight but I don't think that it could have happened if we couldn't

584
00:51:28,420 --> 00:51:33,780
have let go of like living in jealousy yeah right like there are jealousies

585
00:51:33,780 --> 00:51:38,260
there's times when you're like wait do you love her more than me and then you

586
00:51:38,260 --> 00:51:45,380
remember oh that's that's what a child thinks adult adult maturity says my kids

587
00:51:45,380 --> 00:51:50,300
can absolutely love as much as I can love them equally and different our kids

588
00:51:50,300 --> 00:51:54,780
can love us equally and different yeah yeah we always talked about our

589
00:51:54,780 --> 00:51:58,820
jealousies too yeah I think that like we'd always say I'm a little bit jealous

590
00:51:58,820 --> 00:52:05,300
about this and it made it easier for us I think yeah normalizing that vulnerable

591
00:52:05,300 --> 00:52:10,620
yeah well that we couldn't we couldn't pretend that we were like this

592
00:52:10,620 --> 00:52:15,500
Hallmark card family yeah we're not a Hallmark card family we're this weird

593
00:52:15,500 --> 00:52:22,180
weird family but I I am so I'm so grateful that we were able to go outside

594
00:52:22,180 --> 00:52:28,120
of the box of people trying to erase histories or people like and not to

595
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:32,060
bring up the twins as much anymore because it feels a little bit trying to

596
00:52:32,060 --> 00:52:38,460
some of their privacy but like when I so when they when the kids turned 18 so

597
00:52:38,460 --> 00:52:44,100
that was the girls came and lived with Stevoni like within a few months of

598
00:52:44,100 --> 00:52:49,140
turning 18 and then Lexi decided that she also needed to go and live with

599
00:52:49,140 --> 00:52:56,100
Stevoni so she had a 19 year old and two 18 year olds just boom here you go

600
00:52:56,100 --> 00:53:04,740
you're the birth mom yeah how's rough my twin daughters have a lot of trauma from

601
00:53:04,740 --> 00:53:11,820
being completely cut off from from their family and again you know I'm not trying

602
00:53:11,820 --> 00:53:16,220
to like badmouth their adopted family I think they're great people and they did

603
00:53:16,220 --> 00:53:21,620
the best that they could do with what they have but you know it I'm gonna

604
00:53:21,620 --> 00:53:27,460
challenge that because I think I think that they were given an example because

605
00:53:27,460 --> 00:53:30,740
I was talking to them the whole time it's true I was saying to them hey

606
00:53:30,740 --> 00:53:34,060
things are safe things are appropriate things are going okay not the whole time

607
00:53:34,060 --> 00:53:38,700
yeah but for a while because then they finally cut us all off and that whatever

608
00:53:38,700 --> 00:53:43,860
that's whatever it I think people acting out of fear make really interesting

609
00:53:43,860 --> 00:53:47,660
choices so I'm gonna say that they were acting out of fear but I don't think

610
00:53:47,660 --> 00:53:52,580
that they like had no idea what how to do it different they did know how to do

611
00:53:52,580 --> 00:53:56,860
it different and they had people telling them hey you don't have to cut them off

612
00:53:56,860 --> 00:54:02,220
you don't have to do this and they're like nope that's what we're gonna do

613
00:54:02,220 --> 00:54:07,020
maybe that's I I still have I still have a lot of bitter feelings and maybe you

614
00:54:07,020 --> 00:54:11,300
maybe you've forgiven a lot more and because you've had to you've been like

615
00:54:11,300 --> 00:54:16,100
with you've had to do the exact same thing that I had to do for you yeah

616
00:54:16,100 --> 00:54:19,460
that's such an interesting thing that I don't even know that I've put together

617
00:54:19,460 --> 00:54:25,940
because yeah yeah you have to be because you're literally the adopt so Stevoni

618
00:54:25,940 --> 00:54:32,140
actually adopted one of the twins yes I did after they so she's legally my

619
00:54:32,140 --> 00:54:38,380
legally and biologically my daughter again so but she's now the adoptive

620
00:54:38,380 --> 00:54:43,460
parent to those parents and you have to you have to love them yeah you because

621
00:54:43,460 --> 00:54:47,980
they're your kids parents and I'm still I'm still stuck in some because I don't

622
00:54:47,980 --> 00:54:57,100
know how to do that but she also was there with the trauma of them losing

623
00:54:57,100 --> 00:55:00,500
their siblings where I was in prison and I didn't see everything that happened

624
00:55:00,500 --> 00:55:04,820
and so she had to work through that so I understand well and I feel I feel lied

625
00:55:04,820 --> 00:55:09,740
to and betrayed to be fair because I was told your family will never stop

626
00:55:09,740 --> 00:55:13,860
talking to you will never do that and then within months of finalizing their

627
00:55:13,860 --> 00:55:17,780
adoption they were like nah this is a bad idea yeah and never spoke to us

628
00:55:17,780 --> 00:55:20,900
again I mean that's not true that's not true they sent us what three pictures

629
00:55:20,900 --> 00:55:27,180
maybe over the years yeah yeah that but that was a trauma and a loss that was

630
00:55:27,180 --> 00:55:33,060
unnecessary I was not an unreasonable person I was yeah there was there was

631
00:55:33,060 --> 00:55:40,300
just fear and and I think people so I've also I've also done like therapy with

632
00:55:40,300 --> 00:55:47,540
adult adoptees and adult adoptees whose parents like don't don't allow for a

633
00:55:47,540 --> 00:55:52,580
space to talk about adoption because they're sad they're sad about their

634
00:55:52,580 --> 00:55:56,780
child's own adoption story and they bring their own grief to the situation

635
00:55:56,780 --> 00:56:02,000
and their own crap we all do but if you're unwilling to acknowledge that you

636
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:07,220
were bringing a whole baggage of garbage to your adoption story and you're like

637
00:56:07,220 --> 00:56:12,820
no I'm perfectly fine you're wrong you're there's there's pain there's grief

638
00:56:12,820 --> 00:56:18,020
there's loss in every role within adoption but if you tell a child like oh

639
00:56:18,020 --> 00:56:21,780
no we're just all a big happy family now we just forget about that other stuff

640
00:56:21,780 --> 00:56:27,420
but they'll they'll they'll do some interesting things to figure it out and

641
00:56:27,420 --> 00:56:33,700
my girls are struggling like really struggling crushing for developing your

642
00:56:33,700 --> 00:56:38,700
identity and feeling like you have to mask or hide yeah this piece of who you

643
00:56:38,700 --> 00:56:44,420
are yeah I think I always kind of felt like they were bad there was something

644
00:56:44,420 --> 00:56:50,420
wrong with them because of where they came from so yeah there's just so many

645
00:56:50,420 --> 00:56:53,820
there I don't want to get on in bad-mouth people but I just there were

646
00:56:53,820 --> 00:57:00,180
so many stories that I heard about how their closed adoption happened that just

647
00:57:00,180 --> 00:57:08,500
shattered my heart and was just like unnecessary and completely out of fear

648
00:57:08,500 --> 00:57:12,840
to try to keep them away and guess what it didn't work yeah so we're here to

649
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:18,260
tell you that doesn't work don't anybody do it no I'll always reach out and and I

650
00:57:18,260 --> 00:57:22,260
think that was probably the biggest thing that that I that got me through

651
00:57:22,260 --> 00:57:27,020
those 16 years of not seeing them was that they're gonna find me someday yeah

652
00:57:27,020 --> 00:57:34,860
so and they did and move right in and now it's been a whirlwind yeah so I think

653
00:57:34,860 --> 00:57:40,220
stories yeah yeah I don't I I know what made it work for us what made it work

654
00:57:40,220 --> 00:57:47,140
for us was compassion and like seeing that what we were doing was actually in

655
00:57:47,140 --> 00:57:51,900
the best interest of our kids whereas I don't know that a lot of mental health

656
00:57:51,900 --> 00:57:58,460
professionals are like open they're even understand that you can yep they're

657
00:57:58,460 --> 00:58:03,220
still bought into this idea that says oh keep your family safe keep those other

658
00:58:03,220 --> 00:58:10,220
people you know their family over there away from them and safety like even if

659
00:58:10,220 --> 00:58:13,180
somebody had never gotten sober and frankly she never got sober we wouldn't

660
00:58:13,180 --> 00:58:18,140
have this thing my kids had grandparents my kids had aunts and uncles and kids

661
00:58:18,140 --> 00:58:23,780
had this whole family that loved them from the day they were like even thought

662
00:58:23,780 --> 00:58:31,420
up just not something I could ever offer them with my family and yeah if you cut

663
00:58:31,420 --> 00:58:37,460
off because of safety you're making the wrong choice find ways there's so many

664
00:58:37,460 --> 00:58:41,700
like I think about social media being available and all of this stuff that's

665
00:58:41,700 --> 00:58:46,120
now available that we didn't have okay if we could have seen pictures of the

666
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:52,220
twins on social media even that would have felt like a decent connection that

667
00:58:52,220 --> 00:58:57,100
we wouldn't have had to like catch up right or whatever but the fact yeah

668
00:58:57,100 --> 00:59:03,260
there were just so many positive things in open adoption that and nobody I have

669
00:59:03,260 --> 00:59:10,380
a miracle I get I get to have like the best bio mom ever who is adaptable and

670
00:59:10,380 --> 00:59:16,980
flexible and sober and all of those things and like yes I get I get that I

671
00:59:16,980 --> 00:59:20,540
made choices you don't have to flatter me about it I know that that's true but

672
00:59:20,540 --> 00:59:25,340
I also get you and other people don't get that but I just encourage people

673
00:59:25,340 --> 00:59:30,260
every time that I talk about open adoption find out where your boundary is

674
00:59:30,260 --> 00:59:34,420
and then I'd like to say what is one step further that you would take it to

675
00:59:34,420 --> 00:59:39,820
open it up just one step further and why are you unwilling to do that what is

676
00:59:39,820 --> 00:59:45,100
that about is it about you is it about your child is it about them there are

677
00:59:45,100 --> 00:59:49,300
unsafe people out there I get it but that one step of allowing a phone call

678
00:59:49,300 --> 00:59:55,580
that one step of allowing like an email address open it up one more step and

679
00:59:55,580 --> 01:00:01,500
what I found for myself is that as I went step by step by step by step I got

680
01:00:01,500 --> 01:00:06,260
to have an amazing relationship with someone and I'm forever grateful for

681
01:00:06,260 --> 01:00:13,580
that and her willingness to do that helps me tremendously become the person

682
01:00:13,580 --> 01:00:18,620
that I am today and in my recovery that her belief in me and her interest in my

683
01:00:18,620 --> 01:00:24,580
life and my my success was like a catalyst for so many things and where I

684
01:00:24,580 --> 01:00:31,300
am today that's so beautiful thank you so much Bo thank you thank you do you

685
01:00:31,300 --> 01:00:34,420
want to talk about where you are today it's just been a it's been a privilege

686
01:00:34,420 --> 01:00:41,780
to watch 70s journey I yeah I've watched her go from being like a tire technician

687
01:00:41,780 --> 01:00:45,700
when she first got out and she was the fastest tire technician in the county

688
01:00:45,700 --> 01:00:51,860
fastest like not the fastest female the fastest and I changed them my tires so

689
01:00:51,860 --> 01:00:57,940
she did she was really awesome she was super awesome and then like she switched

690
01:00:57,940 --> 01:01:02,860
over as many do to like mental health and substance use and I have watched her

691
01:01:02,860 --> 01:01:09,380
grow in being able to help other people and what a gift that she is to people

692
01:01:09,380 --> 01:01:17,260
because she is able to say I did it you too can do it like I joke all the time

693
01:01:17,260 --> 01:01:25,060
about how the same county that locked her up for crimes a lot of my crimes

694
01:01:25,060 --> 01:01:30,180
they now give her like a six-figure budget and say hey will you just manage

695
01:01:30,180 --> 01:01:35,300
that for us and you got it right yeah like she works so she works at the

696
01:01:35,300 --> 01:01:40,580
prisoner access to recovery program at was such behavioral health and is like a

697
01:01:40,580 --> 01:01:47,060
department lead person and she's in grad school and I am so impressed with her

698
01:01:47,060 --> 01:01:54,460
and I talked about Aymee because she's incredible not only did she do her time

699
01:01:54,460 --> 01:02:01,460
at DCFS which going through school and social work that's kind of always been

700
01:02:01,460 --> 01:02:06,580
one thing that that you're learning about and I just knew that that was no

701
01:02:06,580 --> 01:02:16,300
place I could ever be she touched so many lives and changed so many families

702
01:02:16,300 --> 01:02:20,460
lives I still hear about her and and like the amazing things that she's done

703
01:02:20,460 --> 01:02:26,700
like when specific clients come in and know her whatever but she also put

704
01:02:26,700 --> 01:02:30,660
herself through grad school and I call her my therapist because I call her my

705
01:02:30,660 --> 01:02:44,380
substance use counselor she's also the last so the last several years since

706
01:02:44,380 --> 01:02:47,660
she's got divorced I know it's been difficult for her she's taken on the

707
01:02:47,660 --> 01:02:57,820
role of being a single mom and has really had to I guess find herself

708
01:02:57,820 --> 01:03:05,740
outside of a marriage and she has started her own business too and I got

709
01:03:05,740 --> 01:03:10,420
the pleasure of interning at a vision that business during my my bachelor's

710
01:03:10,420 --> 01:03:17,340
degree and the environment that she has there is you walk into that place and

711
01:03:17,340 --> 01:03:23,380
you just feel incredible like and she has worked so hard at it and she's also

712
01:03:23,380 --> 01:03:30,960
she taught me how to be a parent because there was so much I didn't know and she

713
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:35,900
also taught me how to be a friend I don't have like hardly any girlfriends at

714
01:03:35,900 --> 01:03:41,540
all I don't really like hang out with people but she's always been the person

715
01:03:41,540 --> 01:03:48,100
that I can call when I need something good or bad and I'm just she's just

716
01:03:48,100 --> 01:03:52,700
amazing now I mean she's always been amazing but I just I don't know what I

717
01:03:52,700 --> 01:03:58,500
could do what how my life would be without her I think I yeah I'm so

718
01:03:58,500 --> 01:04:03,580
grateful for all the things that we've built together and yeah that is yeah I

719
01:04:03,580 --> 01:04:08,220
have about the best thing that I ever did in my life you know it's it's this

720
01:04:08,220 --> 01:04:14,460
that's for sure talking about it really makes me miss our kids being little and

721
01:04:14,460 --> 01:04:19,300
all the things because life's so crazy now like we hardly get together like we

722
01:04:19,300 --> 01:04:25,340
used to or anything and just it makes me miss it

723
01:04:25,340 --> 01:04:38,820
well we just want to give a huge thanks to Stevoni and Aymee again I loved this

724
01:04:38,820 --> 01:04:45,660
conversation and how vulnerable open and just clearly that communicates so many

725
01:04:45,660 --> 01:04:52,580
really important aspects of connection and relationships in the adoption sphere

726
01:04:52,580 --> 01:04:59,060
yes I love how supportive they are to one another how they're validating to

727
01:04:59,060 --> 01:05:01,900
each other and to each other's motherhood instead of being threatened by

728
01:05:01,900 --> 01:05:09,500
one another they really like back one another up right and I love that they

729
01:05:09,500 --> 01:05:19,780
have found a way to within their family like co-parent and make this very child

730
01:05:19,780 --> 01:05:27,580
centric relationship where it's resulted in so much love and trust between the

731
01:05:27,580 --> 01:05:32,580
two of them as well yeah one thing that stands out to me and I think of you know

732
01:05:32,580 --> 01:05:38,220
the first time adoptive parents going into a situation where they might have

733
01:05:38,220 --> 01:05:42,020
nothing in common with the birth parent and in this case you know drugs may have

734
01:05:42,020 --> 01:05:47,220
been involved and anyway there's so many differences between people and it takes

735
01:05:47,220 --> 01:05:52,220
work to connect with people and to form relationships and sometimes you go through

736
01:05:52,220 --> 01:05:59,740
these storms together and you know all for the sake of these kids that connect

737
01:05:59,740 --> 01:06:06,460
us and I think this was just a beautiful story of what happens for kids when

738
01:06:06,460 --> 01:06:12,060
parents adoptive parents biological parents come together and try to create

739
01:06:12,060 --> 01:06:19,820
this relationship this normal for for them and it yeah it takes a lot of work

740
01:06:19,820 --> 01:06:24,220
and sometimes it's scary and sometimes it may feel like unsafe there's all

741
01:06:24,220 --> 01:06:28,860
these emotions and feelings around that but ultimately if we're doing the very

742
01:06:28,860 --> 01:06:32,820
best we can for our kids it's going to bless them over and over and over again

743
01:06:32,820 --> 01:06:39,620
I really love that and I love that idea that as the adults in these relationships

744
01:06:39,620 --> 01:06:45,860
it's on us to really be the grown-ups here right and to forge these

745
01:06:45,860 --> 01:06:49,940
connections and relationships and it's not always going to be easy and it does

746
01:06:49,940 --> 01:06:54,780
it takes both sides working at it right for sure but there was some give and

747
01:06:54,780 --> 01:06:59,220
take throughout the relationship and throughout time as Stevoni was getting

748
01:06:59,220 --> 01:07:06,220
healthy and they were able to give one another this grace and understanding as

749
01:07:06,220 --> 01:07:13,740
they worked and continued to like together strive for this relationship

750
01:07:13,740 --> 01:07:21,940
that they have now and I think often in our lives we'll find that there can be

751
01:07:21,940 --> 01:07:27,500
things that come up that make it hard to keep an open adoption right or to keep a

752
01:07:27,500 --> 01:07:35,540
relationship going that's challenging and maybe emotionally burdensome but if

753
01:07:35,540 --> 01:07:41,780
both parties can really focus on what matters most and that is the children

754
01:07:41,780 --> 01:07:46,460
right if both parties are focusing on the well-being of all of the children

755
01:07:46,460 --> 01:07:52,620
involved then it's going to work and it's going to be worth it and I mean I

756
01:07:52,620 --> 01:07:57,700
want to respect the privacy of other people that were spoken about in the

757
01:07:57,700 --> 01:08:02,340
episode but I just thought it was really poignant at the end that you know she

758
01:08:02,340 --> 01:08:07,580
had had other children that were adopted into different situations where it became

759
01:08:07,580 --> 01:08:14,380
close and you know right when the they turned 18 the immediate thing was let's

760
01:08:14,380 --> 01:08:23,180
connect with our birth birth bomb and yeah that's a natural desire I think I

761
01:08:23,180 --> 01:08:28,060
mean obviously we're not trying to project that onto every person but it

762
01:08:28,060 --> 01:08:33,060
makes sense and we've talked on the show before about how when as adoptive

763
01:08:33,060 --> 01:08:39,380
parents we vilify biological family members or don't talk well about them

764
01:08:39,380 --> 01:08:42,780
around our children or in general like even if our children aren't around

765
01:08:42,780 --> 01:08:48,100
they're going to feel that and they're going to feel like that is part of their

766
01:08:48,100 --> 01:08:52,100
own yes part of their identity and that's like a reflection on them because

767
01:08:52,100 --> 01:08:57,340
we're talking bad about a part of them right and a part of who they are and

768
01:08:57,340 --> 01:09:06,500
it's so important to remember that loving your child also means loving their

769
01:09:06,500 --> 01:09:10,620
biological family and that their biological family is part of them and if

770
01:09:10,620 --> 01:09:15,520
you really want your child to feel your love as an adoptive parent you need to

771
01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:19,940
embrace all of them and that includes all of their family yep even when it's

772
01:09:19,940 --> 01:09:26,020
hard even when it's not convenient you have to do it for the kids sake for sure

773
01:09:26,020 --> 01:09:31,300
yep I'd love how that was painted in this conversation me too and I really

774
01:09:31,300 --> 01:09:36,620
really appreciate that Stevoni is so open and talking about her personal

775
01:09:36,620 --> 01:09:40,900
experiences and challenges with addiction that is something that's a

776
01:09:40,900 --> 01:09:47,900
very prevalent challenge that many people experience but it's not spoken

777
01:09:47,900 --> 01:09:52,740
about very often and it's challenging to talk about and I really appreciate that

778
01:09:52,740 --> 01:09:57,580
she was open about that and shared with us because it's something that happens a

779
01:09:57,580 --> 01:10:04,220
lot especially in the adoption community and there's hope and yeah redemption and

780
01:10:04,220 --> 01:10:09,020
she's an amazing person yeah and she enriches her kids lives and it's this

781
01:10:09,020 --> 01:10:15,500
beautiful lesson that it doesn't like if someone's having a struggle today it

782
01:10:15,500 --> 01:10:19,980
doesn't define the rest of their life yeah and kind of a tangent off of that

783
01:10:19,980 --> 01:10:25,900
they they spoke about this I think it's really important that you know she

784
01:10:25,900 --> 01:10:32,520
wasn't telling the kids yeah Aymee wasn't telling the kids how Stevoni was

785
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:37,460
quote-unquote sick like I'm doing our quotes right now and then all of a

786
01:10:37,460 --> 01:10:41,420
sudden that sickness led to her going to prison right and so they're both of them

787
01:10:41,420 --> 01:10:45,060
encouraging like tell the truth obviously age appropriately would tell

788
01:10:45,060 --> 01:10:49,860
the truth and she wasn't like lying but yeah and then just making it more

789
01:10:49,860 --> 01:10:56,940
open and transparent I agree that kids can understand a lot more than we give

790
01:10:56,940 --> 01:11:02,220
them credit for yeah I really like the the reference to going to jail or

791
01:11:02,220 --> 01:11:09,540
prison as adult timeout yeah it's like kids connect with them man I think I

792
01:11:09,540 --> 01:11:12,700
could talk forever about this conversation but I'm just super

793
01:11:12,700 --> 01:11:17,660
grateful for again for both of them for being so willing to be just so open and

794
01:11:17,660 --> 01:11:23,060
sharing so much yes I felt like it was such a helpful conversation for me and I

795
01:11:23,060 --> 01:11:27,420
hope it's been helpful for you too yeah thank you so much for your continued

796
01:11:27,420 --> 01:11:33,140
listening we try so hard to provide really good content for the adoption

797
01:11:33,140 --> 01:11:37,820
community and hope that you found this helpful yes as we are wrapping up our

798
01:11:37,820 --> 01:11:44,780
current season we're getting ready for a special November adoption month series

799
01:11:44,780 --> 01:11:49,500
that will be a little bit more frequent than our current episodes and so we'll

800
01:11:49,500 --> 01:11:53,900
have a little more information about that soon and in the meantime if you

801
01:11:53,900 --> 01:11:59,020
would like to rate our podcast or share it with others who might benefit from it

802
01:11:59,020 --> 01:12:05,620
we would love to help other people in their journeys yeah and again we just do

803
01:12:05,620 --> 01:12:10,660
this because we love the adoption community and we want to share people's

804
01:12:10,660 --> 01:12:15,500
perspectives and opinions and ideally just paint the best future for all of

805
01:12:15,500 --> 01:12:19,740
our adoptee friends whether those are our kids or someone else we're connected

806
01:12:19,740 --> 01:12:24,700
to yeah yeah this really started off as us wanting to help people

807
01:12:24,700 --> 01:12:31,220
destigmatize open adoption and find less fear and that possibility and it's grown

808
01:12:31,220 --> 01:12:38,380
into a lot more but I think this episode ties right in right that you can be so

809
01:12:38,380 --> 01:12:43,160
empowered by allowing more love into your life yeah so like Lanette said like

810
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:48,540
it share it whatever you can to promote the podcast in the adoption space so

811
01:12:48,540 --> 01:12:51,820
that we can help reach more people thanks so much for listening to this

812
01:12:51,820 --> 01:13:09,420
episode of the open adoption project

813
01:13:21,820 --> 01:13:24,340
you