Right, Ben, obviously this film is about the writing of Citizen Kane, which we covered
last week, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Specifically for this film, because we thought it would make no sense to cover this and not
have introduced people to what Citizen Kane was.
And we forgot to rate Citizen Kane at the end of the episode.
Oh man, yeah, that's what I'm saying.
So mine's a 10.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So are you...
You're not...
Are you listening to Venga Boys again?
Boom, boom, boom, boom.
Right, so yes.
I want you in my room to spend the night together from now until forever.
Boom, boom, boom, boom.
Hello everyone and welcome to the Every Movie Ever podcast.
My name is Ben Groves.
My name is Rob Macfarlane.
Welcome to the show, a movie podcast where we ask the important questions like, what
the hell, David?
No one even gets murdered in this film.
No wonder it made less than 10% of its budget back at the box office.
Is this Fincher's Most Slept On masterpiece?
Probably.
You know what I mean?
Probably.
I've got some cases to make.
All right.
Well, this is the censored version of the show, ladies and gentlemen.
Swearers will be bleeped, but fear not.
As always, the full uncensored version is available early over on our Patreon for as
little as one pound a month, buddy.
Yes, it's like 20 minutes longer as well.
And that's not just swear words.
It's not like we cut 20 minutes of swearing out of an hour show.
There's extra content, extra insight, extra all sorts.
17 minutes of swearing, three minutes of content.
Don't give the game away.
How you doing, buddy?
Yeah, I'm good.
A little busy, so my shift had to get switched around to cover some staff absence.
That coincided on the one week where of the month where we also record the bonus Patreon
episode, so we've got to lots of research, to lots of formatting, to lots of like editing
to do and stuff.
So I'm a little busy, a little busy, a little flustered, sir.
How are you?
I'm good, man.
So I remembered Vengaboys were a thing.
Went on Spotify.
I can tell because you are moving like Hitler watching tanks go by.
I'm not going to lie.
You know that footage of him on meth?
Yeah.
Just going.
Yeah.
Loving it.
Next week, if you remember, could you put that to some Vengaboys?
Oh, mate, I'll do it tonight.
I mean, to be fair, looking at the news, I don't know if we actually need that on social
media.
It's already out there.
Wait, wait, wait.
I could just use Elon.
There you go.
Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.
Please don't.
What are we doing today, Ben?
Today, buddy.
We're on our penultimate David Fincher film in our series covering every David Fincher
movie ever.
The Citizen Kane adoring, but audience boring manc released in the early days of the pandemic
director Netflix with a limited theatrical run all the way back in the distant 2020.
Now here is where we normally do a little time capsule recap of the events of that year,
but let's not.
Let's not.
I will, however, for the first time in a while, Ben, ask you where Fincher at?
What that man do?
He talks with Kathleen Kennedy about doing a set of super dark Star Wars movies.
Didn't get that.
Why the fuck not?
No, we didn't.
He just to talk about starting stuff.
I think you start stuff.
People read what he's doing and they're like, no, that's you're not put, not my universe,
not my Star Wars.
Too dark.
Yeah.
Right.
I agree.
He was hired to do the cancel sequel to World War Z, but that got shelved when China banned
film productions involving ghosts or zombies.
Yeah.
It should be the fly on the wall in that room.
There is like all of the highest officials in the country.
I mean, it doesn't feel like in 2020 that that was the worst thing happening in China.
It's not the top of the list to be talking about in a room full of high elected officials.
Let's maybe-
In 2020, China had stuff on.
Yeah.
Why are you banning ghosts at the start of the fucking pandemic?
Well, I want to answer, Ben, for the audience and for myself, whether this is Fincher's
most slept on masterpiece, is it a masterpiece and does it get the sort of love and adoration
that it deserves?
Or shall we for the benefit of the majority of the population who haven't seen this,
because most people haven't seen Citizen Kane.
We know, we see our numbers.
Fuck yous.
Right?
Go listen.
We also know that people aren't going to be watching a film about the making of that film.
So can we break it down for the audience?
I've written this week's breakdown-
Oh, you've done it.
For you, my dear boy.
Oh, lovely.
Thanks, Ben.
It's three paragraphs.
There are no titles because I know you're not a big fan of the titles.
It's just me that does it.
So for this one, I've written it for you.
You buddy, I do anything.
I know.
I know, I know, I know.
Not anything, but-
Let's just see how it goes.
I'm going to listen to Venga Boys.
You blast it out, buddy.
You know what I mean?
Shall I wave when I need you to participate again in the podcast we both run?
Yeah, go for it, bud.
So the story kicks off in 1940 with Herman J. Mankovitz, or Mank for short, laid up in
bed after a car accident.
Orson Welles hires him to write the screenplay for Citizen Kane, giving him full creative
freedom, but also a tight 60 day deadline.
Mank's stuck out in the desert with a nurse.
Yup, a secretary.
Oh, go on then.
Yeah.
And a lot of booze.
Why am I hard?
I know.
Right.
To keep him company while he dictates the script.
The movie then flashes back to the 1930s where we see Mank's life in full swing.
Full swing.
He's this brilliant but self-destructive white- He's this brilliant but self-destructive
white- He's this brilliant but self-destructive white- Can you stop moving?
Boom, boom, boom, boom, buddy.
Right, I'm just going to minimise you.
No, no, no, no.
All right, all right, all right.
I'll turn it down.
The movie then flashes back to the 1930s where we see Mank's life in full swing.
He's this brilliant but self-destructive writer working for MGM Studios, where Louis
B. Mayer runs things like a dictatorship under the guise of being family.
Personal hero energy.
Oh, I see you.
Mank's sharp tongue and wit make him a regular guest at William Randolph Hearst's San Simeon
Estate, where he befriends Marion Davies.
She's smart.
Make booby gesture with hands.
And Ben, it's an audio podcast.
No, I saw it.
This is why I minimised you.
I saw it.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.
What a glamorous and kind-hearted mistress.
Marion and Mank have this great platonic bond.
You can tell Mank's starting to notice the cracks in the system.
The manipulation, the power plays, all of it.
I mean, I'm just glad you said in the system.
Yeah.
Now, this is where things heat up.
The film dives into my personal wank bank.
Thanks for that one, Ben.
Sing it, sister.
The 1934 California gubernatorial election, which turns out to be a huge turning point
for Mank.
I mean, you're not wrong.
Hearst and Mayer throw their full weight behind crushing Upton Sinclair, the socialist candidate.
Utter scum.
Again, I'm a socialist, Ben, but fine.
Using dirty tactics and propaganda, allegedly.
Some might say incredibly smart and effective tactics employed by some of the best blue
tie heroes in history.
Wow, that's a strong one.
They make fake newsreels to sway voters.
Legends.
Mank watches it all unfold and becomes disgusted with how Hollywood is being used to manipulate
public opinion.
At the same time, in the 1940 timeline, he's pouring all of this frustration and anger
into his screenplay, turning Hearst into the larger than life character of Charles Foster
Kane.
It's not just Hearst he's skewering, it's the whole system.
Marion tries to warn Mank to back off, but he's too far gone.
His drinking gets worse, his relationships fray, and even his secretary starts questioning
whether this script is just a personal vendetta.
She's getting ideas.
Hell pass skin.
Disgusting.
In the final act, we get the big showdown.
My WWE.
In a flashback, there's this intense scene where Mank, I mean, it is a great scene, where
Mank drunkenly confronts Hearst at one of his San Simeon parties, like the belligerent
peasant with a pen that he is.
He tears into Hearst and his powerful guests, calling them out for their hypocrisy and their
corruption.
Hearst, cool as a cucumber, doesn't lash out.
Just tells Mank a crushing parable about an organ grinder and his monkey, basically calling
Mank a puppet for the system.
Which he f***ing is.
Sing it, sister.
Like this moment fuels Mank's resolve and back in 1940 he finishes the script, now titled
Citizen Kane.
Not my Citizen Kane.
But when Orson Welles tries to take sole credit for the screenplay, Mank fights back, demanding
his name be on it.
Let the peasants fight, I say.
F*** it, televise it.
That's my Citizen Kane.
Sing it, sister.
I see what you did there.
Okay.
Sing it, sister.
The film ends with Citizen Kane being released and Mank winning the Oscar for Best Original
Screenplay.
But it's a hollow victory.
His career is over, his relationships are in shambles and you're left wondering if it
was all worth it.
Still, he got the truth out there and that's what mattered to him.
But he died as an out of work pauper and that's what mattered to me.
Ben.
That's an interesting take on that one, bud.
It's an interesting take for you to have written for me to read out.
Yeah, I mean.
There's not much in the way of full stops.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
How many coffees have you had today, babe?
It's a lot.
Oh, okay.
So, I'm just going to put it out here, right?
I'm incredibly tired.
I've done two ridiculously long days back to back.
I have programmed two weeks worth of screenings at my cinema, which is fine.
That's fine.
I've also done two weeks worth of socials.
Right.
So, I'm just looking at you and you are vibrant.
I'm fizzing.
The amount of caramel-laced caffeine that is flowing through my veins right now is literally
like...
It's like from the taurine and the lysine and the whatever it is drinks as well, aren't
you?
Yeah, I can tell.
I can tell.
Don't worry.
Just a quick question.
This movie, before you watched it, were you jumping for joy or were you eager and keen?
Because I spoke to you and you were absolutely destitute with despair.
You were like, why?
I was fuming that we were doing this.
I was fuming.
I was like, can we just end the Fincher series because I don't want to watch a Fincher biopic
about a man that may or may not have been involved in the writing of Citizen Kane.
If it's any consolation to you, buddy, when we took the break over Christmas and I was
looking at what was left to do and I was thinking, maybe we just do Gone Girl and we park the
rest of Fincher's filmography because it's Manken the Killer and I wasn't looking forward
to Manken because I'd seen it back in 2020.
I hadn't re-watched Citizen Kane in order to watch the movie.
I just went in based on my memory of the film and I was dreading this one.
I was dreading this one.
Not only because I knew that you would hate it, but also because I kind of thought I might
too.
And then I was like, it's just going to be two blokes moaning about a film being old.
Right?
The first thing that went through my head was I tried doing a little bit of research
and being sort of like, right, okay, let's dive into the reviews of this and I could
only find critic stuff.
There's no like hobby podcasts.
There's no sort of like letterbox disdain on it.
You know what I mean?
It's all fart sniffing, self wanky aficionados.
We are reading Shakespeare at the strip club right now.
This is literally what I was thinking.
I put it on, not knowing what to expect because this is my first watch through.
I didn't even know this film existed until we started doing this series.
I put it on and I'm a big fan of 1940s films, black and white cinema, old Hollywood.
Big fan.
You are.
That's going to become relevant later, by the way.
As soon as this film started playing, I was gobsmacked at the amount of nostalgia that
hit me for a film I'd never seen.
It's almost like Fincher went, hey, hey, hey, sorry, just one sec.
I know that I've been smashing modern day cinema, banging out masterpiece after masterpiece,
much like the Venga Boys.
What I'm going to do is though, leave out, is I'm going to just hold my beer a sec.
I'm just going to quickly fix everything from the 30s and 40s in like one fell sweep.
Just knocks out the park, buddy.
Having rewatched Citizen Kane last week for the show and going into this film properly
like informed, having researched Citizen Kane, having learned, I knew about the W. Randolph
Hearst, but I didn't quite know like the degree to which it was happening.
This film looks gorgeous from the first frame.
It's unbelievable.
And the dialogue, the pace, the shots, the flashback structure of the narrative, everything
down to the deep focus, the optical printer stuff is like a love letter to Citizen Kane.
And it's not pastiche.
It's not homage because there's a whole beauty to the new content that Fincher brings to
this.
But like the attention to detail, there's a Fight Club reference.
In Mank, did you spot the Fight Club reference?
No.
What?
In Fight Club, Tyler Durden edits penises into films, right?
Yeah, I knew you were going to say this.
And he does it between the cigarette burn cues.
Yes, he does.
Which are the little dots on the film that tells the projectionist get ready to change
the reel.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This film's littered with those cigarette burn cues, but the first one comes as a character
says, wait for your cue.
And then there's a beat and then there's the first of those.
That's tied into the narrative.
It's tied into the dialogue.
I love that.
Other details like when we see him drop the alcohol onto the floor from the bed where
he's fallen asleep in an alcoholic day.
They recreate the shot from Citizen Kane of Kane dropping the snow globe that reminds
him of his great love.
It's not just an homage to Citizen Kane.
It's informing us about Mankiewicz as a character.
Alcohol is his rosebud.
Yeah.
Beautiful.
The cigarette is essentially a maid.
Right.
And the little things like every time they cut back to the first half of the film when
they cut to the 1940s footage of him writing Citizen Kane, it sets up an establishing shot
of his notebook, the brand of which is called The Spiral.
Wow.
Okay.
Because he's in his alcoholic spiral.
It's just this beautiful David Fincher's OCD autism just applied to a film of this era
is a wonderful, wonderful thing to watch.
Going into it, I was dreading it and then suddenly every shot I was like, oh, oh, doing
the Leonardo DiCaprio clicking at the screen thing.
And then it just became like a fun movie nerd spot the difference.
I loved it.
It was great.
I'm going to read my notes for, cause I was typing as the film was playing out and it
was like, it was a moment to moment thing.
Right.
Yeah.
So I've, these are my notes word for word immediate reaction.
This is, you know, it opens up credits rolling music's playing music's amazing in this by
the way.
But anyway, I've got a whole section.
Amazing.
The, this is what I've written immediate reaction.
The fuck am I watching?
Why did Fincher make this?
It's so far removed from everything else he's ever done.
It's a shock to my system.
I don't like change.
And then the second that the credits were done rolling, my notes then go, Oh no, I fall
three 16.
I think I love this.
I cannot fathom why Fincher would make this, but the look, the feel, the atmosphere and
the sound is fucking incredible.
Everything feels so authentically old school.
The audio especially, because the thing that got me with the audio, it's, it's a weird,
I dunno, I'm a little bit obsessed with the old black and white films from the forties
because of the way that the dialogue sounds.
It has this natural reverb that only seems to happen on a soundstage and it's insane
to try and recreate it.
It just, it rarely happens ever.
Right.
So you've, you've mentioned three things there that I've got headings that I want to talk
about.
So let's not go in order.
Let's go with the last one you mentioned, which is the sound.
So the sound is entirely mono.
Incredible.
So he did the entire film in mono.
Now for those listeners who aren't like me with a background in music or like Ben yourself,
a background in the Beatles, can you describe the difference between mono and stereo for
our listeners, please?
Mono everything is down the middle, one track.
Stereo everything is panned out between left and right.
It's like a bigger space to listen to.
Yeah.
The left speaker has something different in it to the right speaker.
So somebody can walk across the frame and you'll hear the move from left to right.
Or importantly with dialogue, you can have dialogue in a different space to the music.
So it doesn't all step on each other, right?
The entire film is in mono, but the mix is 5.1.
Yes, it is.
The mix is 5.1 so that they can add a reverb of an imaginary cinema into the rear channels.
Incredible.
I love this.
It's like you're sat in a theatre watching it because they've got this big space behind
you.
All the dialogue has this natural reverb to it.
It's like, even when they're outside and you can tell it's not built on a sound stage,
it's on location and it still sounds like sound stage.
And it's to die for.
It is literally, it just warmed my entire soul.
Ren Kleist, the sound designer, has worked with Fincher on almost every film he's ever
done.
So they just have a natural shorthand for this stuff now.
Incredible.
It's incredible.
Fincher says do it.
He's like, yeah.
And then that's it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And they just speak in code.
At that point, we have our own language for doing this show.
I can't imagine the shorthand at those two.
And everyone on Fincher's team has.
The other thing you asked is why did Fincher make this?
Guess what?
I can tell you.
Okay.
I need to be honest.
I think I know why.
But the audience don't, so allow me to tell you anyway.
Do it.
I have a theory on it.
Can I give you my theory and you tell me whether I'm close to the mark or not?
Because I've done zero research on this.
I've just not had time.
Okay.
This whole episode is you teaching me this film because I'm obsessed with it and I just
want to know more.
And I love how enthusiastic you are about it.
So I've purposefully, in prep for the show, not done anything.
Wait, give me your theory.
So I think because we're on the Fincher journey right now and we've gone through all of his
films and through each film, I learn a little bit more about him and the way that he makes
film and the way that he obsesses over every tiny aspect of film, every tiny detail.
Right?
This is essentially what this feels like a film nerd having completed everything of modern
day cinema, wanting to go into more detail about where his nerdity comes from.
He's like, yes, I know what every single person does.
Right.
Yes, I know their job descriptions.
Yes, I can tell.
I can walk into any single person on my cast and crew and know that they're as important
as the last.
I wonder what it was like in the thirties.
You're close with the wondering where his love comes from.
Okay.
But also wildly out.
You want to know that, right?
No, it's fine.
So this was originally going to be David Finch's next project after the game, 1997.
Okay.
Cool.
David Finch didn't agree with his preference to shoot it in black and white.
This is in 1996, 1997.
Yeah.
Okay.
He wants to do a square original aspect ratio, black and white, mono film.
And they're like, alien three went well, didn't it David?
The game did really well, but also sad billionaire on your bike, mate.
Right.
Exactly.
You don't want to be the sad billionaire guy.
Okay.
So he's got a quote here talking about the script around about that time.
He said, it started to work in an interesting way because it's a story about a guy finding
his voice and a guy finding out that the things he says matter.
For someone who was super natural, for someone who was pretty naturally, uh, for someone
who was very witty, ideas were a dime a dozen, or as he says in the film, they cost a whole
lot more than that during the depression.
Right.
Um, for him, that stuff was easy.
So how could he respect it?
Right.
So he's a guy who on his way to like the bathroom would toss off these ideas of like all the
stuff in Kansas should be in black and white and all the stuff in all should be in Technicolor
and then get fired off the movie and never get a credit for the great special effect
in cinema.
Okay.
Right.
Yeah.
It seemed an interesting idea that the imaginative power of creation that brings about black
and white to Technicolor is the same instinct that saves a $10 contribution to a reelection
campaign and goes, you've got everything you need to convince everybody right here.
Yeah.
So he's attracted to this script because it's about a guy finding his voice in a cynical
and corrupt industry.
Okay.
And this is 1997.
So you can begin to see why he thinks this script is mint.
Okay.
But there's a, there's a, there's a missing piece that I'm going to give you now.
Remember when we covered Benjamin Button?
Yes.
And Fincher was talking about how it was so difficult to make because his father had just
died and that was the one man, that was his audience.
That was the guy he was making every film for.
Yeah.
So this script is written by Jack Fincher, David Fincher's late father.
Wow.
Hold on one second.
I need to pause Vangabuzz because I feel like this is going to take a sharp turn.
Okay.
The Vangabuzz is not coming.
Continue.
Jack Fincher wrote the script, 120 page draft following a claim by Pauline Kael in her New
Yorker article, Raising Kane.
Okay.
That Orson Welles did not deserve a screenwriting credit.
Now it's since been debated by movie buffs back and forth.
Okay.
Fincher doesn't really care.
This is him making the script that his dad wrote that he connected with because his dad
saw what happened to David, saw what happened to Mankiewicz, saw this corrupt industry and
the world it was happening in and went, wow, the people who make this magic are really
exposed to a bunch of toxic horror, aren't they?
But he finally gets around to making the script that his dad wrote about his experience in
cinema.
It's incredible.
Holy shit.
And so at that point, it doesn't really matter if Orson and Mank wrote it together.
It's not about that.
It's incredibly accurate to a lot of the history, but it's also completely inaccurate to the
story of the making of Citizen Kane because it's not really about the making of Citizen
Kane.
We'll get to that later.
This is incredible.
That what a lovely thing to do for your biggest cheerleader that has ever existed.
Yeah.
Not, dude, dad of the fucking century.
My son has had a rough time on Alien 3.
I'm going to expose the horrors of the industry that's been going on since the thirties in
an absolute belter of a script.
Hold on, hold on, hold on.
When did his dad die?
Benjamin Button.
His dad never got to see this.
Oh, that's heartbreaking.
Imagine how proud he'd be.
He was given 25 million for this.
He was given 25 million dollars to make this film.
And I wasn't lying when I said it made less than 10% of its budget at the box office.
We'll get into why.
I can understand it, but Jesus Christ, my heart, my tired brain and broken heart.
I'm trying to process it.
I wish I would have done some research on this now.
No, no, no.
It's good because it's sad.
Because it's all going to, I'm going to tie it all together in a nice bow at the end.
The reason that he makes this film now and the reason it makes so little money and what
this film are really about are all tied together.
When it comes to the accuracy, there's a big debate about who wrote what.
But essentially he did sign a contract saying, I do not want credit for this.
And then went back on that contract against Orson Welles and said, actually, I do want
credit for it.
I can see why though, because he just crafted the masterpiece of his entire lifetime and
then was like, oh, maybe.
Right.
Exactly.
Shouldn't have drunkenly signed a contract whilst I was in a gambling deck with the studio.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Okay.
So the cut and thrust might be inaccurate of this A being a film about the writing of
Citizen Kane and B being a film accurately depicting who wrote the film.
Things that are accurate though, William Randolph Hearst did actually own a zoo.
Amazing.
Louis B. Mayer did ask his employees to take a massive pay cut for eight weeks and then
not pay them back.
Amazing.
What a guy.
He did help refugees escape fascism.
Did he actually?
Was that, that bit was true?
He helped a hundred Jewish people escape.
We don't know the actual number and he would often play it down.
So it could be, it's multiple.
We just don't know how many multiple.
What an absolute f***ing hero.
MGM did ideate, create and start fake election newsreels.
I've actually watched one.
The one that they depict in the film is on YouTube.
Okay.
So we're in our lovely discord.
We'll have a link to it there in the references section.
So I'll paste that in soon as we're done recording.
Yeah, please.
You can go see the original fake news political attack ads that MGM created in this era.
However, we don't know if Mankiewicz was the guy who came up with the idea.
It's more of a contraction of the idea that he came up with the Wizard of Oz special effect
and trying to sort of tidy the story rather than bring it out seven or eight facts.
Let's merge them together into ones that inform the character.
Got you, got you, got you.
It's smart though, because I mean, this film's already like heavy enough.
The dialogue is dense.
It is.
And riddled with like...
Very clever, very beautiful, very written dialogue like you'd have in the forties and
fifties.
Yes, you would.
But it's also written in a way that's very specific to Citizen Kane.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So without seeing Citizen Kane, this film is a lot of waffle in a short amount of time.
I mean, it's two hours 15, feels like four, but like...
Yeah, this was the exact problem I had when I first watched it.
Watching it with Citizen Kane in memory, it's exactly that.
I just went, this is waffle.
I don't care.
Because I wasn't seeing the loving recreations.
I wasn't seeing the nods.
I wasn't seeing the clever remixing of ideas.
I was just going, I don't really care.
Yeah, no, I understand that.
I think my favourite take from this whole film is the political landscape of 1930s Hollywood,
of early Hollywood, was an absolute wild west of multi-millionaires just out to absolutely
ruin the lives of their loyal employees that help them make these films.
Sorry, are you talking about today or...?
Yes.
Oh no, wait, back then you mean?
Back then.
Yeah, nothing's changed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Honestly, there is just a full loose undercurrent of absolute country afoot and the mistrust
between the executives and the writers is incredible.
But there's also this really weird juxtaposition of everyone involved in every situation is
continuously fighting the question, what other option do I have right now?
Right, right, right.
Because back in this day, MGM are the titans, right?
They are the titans of industry.
Now they've got a TV channel where they screen old movies, you know what I mean?
And they're nothing.
100%.
And you've got Paramount and Universal, who are these tiny fish in a massive ocean and
they're desperately trying to wrangle in these loose canon writers that are like, come on
boys, please give us something.
We are desperate for anything.
And it's like, we don't make cheap horror flicks, Universal do.
And I was sitting there looking at my Frankenstein collectibles, looking at my box sets of Universal
Monsters, looking at my Creature of the Blue Lagoon special edition Blu-ray box set.
And I'm like, if they had any inkling of what they were doing back in the 30s, holy, can
you imagine that?
Yeah, but a hundred years from now, some dickhead in Telford is going to have four different
copies of Frankenstein.
Because why not?
Do you know what I mean?
This whole thing, the political landscape back then was a wild west of millionaires.
I loved every second of it.
I had no idea that it was as cutthroat as it is.
And it took me back to my sales days where everything was sort of like super cutthroat
and you act immediately.
And if you don't, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're in the room, you're in the room and you get
what you need.
If you're not in the room, you don't get anything.
That's it.
I thought I was a badass.
You will be.
You know what I mean?
And that's all these boys.
You're a 1939 film executive.
Dude, I was, I was, that was like my idol.
You know what I mean?
I was aiming for that.
I was an understudy at best.
I was an intern.
I've got, I've got a quick question for you, Ben.
Do you like hot long sausage down your greedy throat?
Are you flirting with me, boy?
Oh, I know you do.
I'd like to talk about the sponsor of this week's episode.
Okay.
JL Butchers.
You want award winning meat in your mouth?
Yes, please.
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I got mine cold as my father's heart and fresh as the pain of Trump's inauguration.
Treat yourself to the best meat you're going to get this year.
Ship to your door from JL Butchers.
Guess what I had for dinner last night, Ben?
Was it letterbox meat from JL Butchers?
It was.
Yeah, buddy.
Guess how I got that?
Through the post.
For free.
For the podcast.
Oh, wait, what the f***?
You're getting sent free meats?
Yeah, from our listeners.
What the f***?
Where's my free meats?
I'm at the...
You're vegan, mate.
I'm at the gym.
I need proteins.
You're vegan though.
You got to eat broccoli.
I'm not vegan anymore.
Give me some f***ing meats.
You're not vegan anymore?
Oh, that was last week.
We just...
Hold on.
People can't keep up with your changing whims, Ben.
You're just accepting...
You're accepting post meats.
Wait.
A sponsorship for the show.
Yeah.
And then just announcing me into the advert.
Yeah.
I got f*** all of this cut.
I got nothing.
Yeah, I know.
Yeah, JL Butchers.
Get them.
Might do.
Might not.
Ben, all I'm saying is you weren't in the room and it's a cutthroat world, bud.
Hollywood, bud.
You know what I mean?
You really do live and learn.
You really do.
All I wanted was some fresh meats.
Yeah.
And what do I get?
Shaft.
You mentioned it earlier, the music.
Yes, I did.
Now, I'm an avowed Nine Inch Nails nerd.
You are.
If you're listening to this on Sunday, which you will be because we never miss an episode,
just a quick heads up, Monday morning, 11.30am, you can buy pre-sale tickets to their first
UK show in years.
Get on that.
I'm glad you didn't call it a tour because it's two gigs.
And I was like, that's not a tour.
It's two gigs.
Yeah, yeah.
It's a world tour of two continents.
Yeah, I know.
It's like having Major League Baseball World Series, only Americans.
But I kept forgetting that the score for this film was buying Nine Inch Nails.
Okay.
It's not electronic.
It's not.
It's using period authentic instruments.
It really is.
It's jazzy.
It's 30s.
It's 40s.
When the music started playing in the beginning, I was like, I can hope this is Atticus and
Trent.
I hope it is so much.
And then when the names popped up, I was like, oh, I'm in for an absolute treat.
I'm in for an absolute treat because I do not know.
I'm not the biggest Nine Inch Nails fan in the world.
They are objectively the greatest band to exist because Johnny Cash said so.
And if Johnny Cash is going out of his way to cover a Nine Inch Nails song, you don't
argue with Johnny Cash.
Objectively the best band that exists.
He extincted a species of bird.
You cannot argue with that man.
No, you don't because he'll extinct you next.
But what I'm saying is, is I'm not their biggest fan.
They are incredible.
I am, however, probably the second biggest fan of Trent and Atticus Ross when it comes
to soundtracks.
Because I know you're always going to outnour me on it.
Bless you.
And you deserve to because you're a titan of a fan.
I adore their film scores more than anything.
The only thing that saves social network for me is the sound.
When I saw their names pop up on this, I was like, oh, nom nom nom nom nom nom nom.
Give me that sweet jazzy nonsense that I know is about to come spewing out in all sorts
of directions.
And the main direction it came out is in one because it was mono and it was mint.
And it was so good.
Dude, the drums in this, the drums.
Oh my God, my tits were like to point, you know what I mean?
Cutting glass.
No, I could have cut steel with this.
You know what I mean?
I can't sit and watch the girl with the dragon tattoo with the coldest, iciest, synthest,
emptiest, dread filled soundscapes.
It's like Brian Eno got depression and just moved to Siberia.
And then this is like...
It's amazing.
And like the idea of Trent Reznor sat in his little goth palace just with the drum set
being like, I'll just do jazz drumming then.
Yeah, all right, so explain to me one sec.
And I'm like...
It was one of the 10 Oscars that this film got nominated for.
Ten?
I can understand.
Citizen Kane got nominated for nine.
Yeah, I know.
I heard that later on.
He was nominated for one more than Citizen Kane.
The soundtrack was one of the 10 Oscars that this film was nominated for.
Citizen Kane only got nine, which has kind of spun me seeing your reaction.
I'm actually crying.
That's amazing.
Do you know what that calls for?
A bit of anger boys.
Go on then.
No, it doesn't.
Don't put anger boys on Ben.
Right, I'm minimizing you again.
I thought about the fact he didn't win the Oscar and I can understand why because from
another soundtrack artist, from another classical composer, jazz composer, this isn't that remarkable.
But in Trent Reznor's catalogue, it's incredibly remarkable.
I was astounded how fully he committed to the bit until I thought about it for a second
longer and when is he not committed to the bit?
Yes.
That's a really good point.
I was like, God, he's really gone for this jazz thing, haven't I?
And then I thought about everything else he's done and he's gone.
There's not very many seven out of 10 commitments on there, are there?
No, no.
There's nothing where he's like, I'll see what I can do.
I mentioned earlier, this isn't really about the writing of Citizen Kane.
And I stand by that.
I really do stand by that.
It's a film about Hollywood, it's a film about politics and the way that storytelling affects
them both.
I mean, the black and white, the mono, the nice reverb on the back, the editing things,
they're nice little Easter eggs.
And if they were just that, I'd hate this film because it would be just a mosh.
It would just be pointing at Citizen Kane and go, I love that.
That's my favourite.
Oh, look at this.
Isn't this good?
Remember this?
Yeah, exactly.
Oh, brilliant.
Oh, yeah, great.
Yeah, brilliant.
But there's a reason behind all of it and it transforms the film into more than a narrative.
It becomes the statement because by recreating the look and feel of classic cinema, it sort
of comments on how we use Hollywood to tell us our history.
You and I have done it with Citizen Kane.
You and I have spoken about what Orson Welles was saying with Citizen Kane about W. Randolph
Hurst.
And that's become probably more than most in the public imagination.
If that guy who was the Rupert Murdoch, who was the Elon Musk of his time, people say
his name and in the popular imagination we go, I saw a film about him.
It's both a love letter to an era that he respects and a critique of its dark side,
like a finger pointed at the way Hollywood will simplify a story and tell a more politically
convenient narrative that kind of becomes inverted commas the truth as we move forward,
especially as we get further away from these times.
We don't look at the complexity of W. Randolph Hurst's life and the fact that he was friends
with guys like Mankiewicz and he was friends with guys like Mankiewicz because they told
him when he was being a tit.
We just go, Citizen Kane, he was a nobbit.
Fincher uses the style to kind of underscore the idea that the Hollywood's glitz is masking
its horrible underbelly of corruption.
Corruption and yes men.
It's a propaganda machine.
It's a big old propaganda machine, but we love it.
A thousand percent.
Dude, the amount of films that I watched that genuinely changed my opinion, even though
they are actually works of fiction.
Right.
And so making this modern film in an old style about stuff that still happens today is a
beautiful way of sort of continuing the Kane legacy of this isn't really a film about how
Citizen Kane was written.
It's a film about how all your stories that you consume are written and the messaging
and the politics and the money and the corruption behind it.
Enjoy.
Fincher's a demon man.
Fincher might be possessed.
He's a demon.
I was thinking about this today, right?
And I was, I was obviously, I was a little bit worked up about the episode because A,
I was knackered.
B, I was rushed off my feet and C, I was like, I'm not sure.
I'm not sure I'm going to like it.
Yeah, same, same.
Sitting down to watch it was a chore and it was a lot of effort to actually just stop
doing what I was doing and stop making excuses and actually watch this film.
Fincher can literally take anything and make it something so poignant and so deserving
of attention that it is actually witchcraft to watch this man work.
We've done, we've done the Fincher series now from his very first film of Alien 3, worst
alien film that exists.
After Romulus.
Eat shit.
And all the way through, you know, like his absolute belt is seven, fight club, uh, Gone
Girl.
Yeah.
None of them as good as Alien 3 would have been if he'd been there to finish it.
And then he shit the bird.
So it's fine.
But what, but then, you know, Pete, Gone Girl, and then we get to, we get to man can I'm
like, but why, why now?
Like why this?
And watching it, you can't help but understand exactly, exactly where he's at because it
just made perfect sense in his timeline.
This was the main, this was the main thing that I took away from everything that we've
learned so far about Fincher.
The man is such a nerd that he can correctly go back in time to the thirties and do a better
job than the thirties at making 30 cinema.
And it's like, I don't know.
Like he correctly went back in time to the seventies and did a better job than the police.
This is what I'm saying.
And then that crime is now solved.
That was a cold case for how many decades?
Four.
Four decades.
The man is a wizard.
Yeah.
100%.
It's freaking me out now.
I, there is in no universe, there's no timeline where someone pitches me the story of the
guy that wrote Citizen Kane and I give a shit.
It just doesn't happen.
But having watched the film.
A thousand percent.
I'm going to add, I'm an advocate for this.
If they made t-shirts for Mank, I would buy one.
That's the sort of movie fan.
That's where I'm at.
All right.
Not only do they make t-shirts for Mank, they make them.
Uh, official nine each nails merchandise for this film.
That's actually dope as fuck.
I didn't realise.
I was joking.
I thought I, I'm just, I'm going to, I'm going to mentally note that for your next Christmas
and birthday.
Yeah, that's actually amazing.
Mank merchandise.
Fuck yes.
That would be amazing.
I love the idea that you've got, you know, t-shirts of Evil Dead, Godzilla, Reanimate
a Mank Friday the 13th part three.
You know what I mean?
Mank.
The thing that sings in this film for me, if you don't say Gary Oldman right now, I'm
actually going to punch you in the tits.
Gary Oldman is incredible and we'll get to Gary.
Okay.
Good, good, good.
But the, the parallel and why I think this might be a perfect movie, a Ben Groves perfect
movie.
Okay.
And for the audience who've just joined us in recent weeks, can you define what a perfect
movie is for Ben Groves?
I'm going to give Ghostbusters as an example.
Ghostbusters is a perfect film to me because it is a group of friends desperately trying
to make it in an industry that they're ridiculed, not taken seriously and they're up against
every sort of clock going.
Right?
The production of the Ghostbusters movie was a group of friends desperately trying to make
a movie whilst they were up against every sort of clock going.
Right?
And they pulled it off to such a degree because it was pure belief and they were living that
exact moment.
Right.
It's a story told by no one who is more qualified to tell that story in that moment.
Right.
So Mank for me is a perfect movie for Ben Groves because it's David Fincher, the man
who's told stories that are incredibly cynical, telling his cynical story about how corrupt
Hollywood is through the medium of a writer looking at Hollywood and telling them how
corrupt they are.
The speech at the end that Mank gives to W. Randolph Hearst is pretty much the speech
conceptually that David Fincher gives to Hollywood by the fact that this film is not funded by
Hollywood and he has not worked in Hollywood since because this film was paid for and bought
by Netflix with whom he has a 10 picture deal.
Ten!
Which is why this film, this film made less than a hundred thousand dollars at the box
office because he barely released it.
He just went, if people want to play it, they can load up Netflix.
I get that, that's very shocking, I should have more of a visceral reaction to that.
Just one second, a 10 movie deal with Netflix?
It's David Fincher, we'll get four of them.
Oh man, don't do this to me because all in my brain, every fucking failed pitch, every
started project that's just gone to shit because of studio involvement, I got too excited.
There's a list as long as my arse that's like maybe like six films.
It's like, okay, so 10 pictures and he's done two?
I have to double check the 10 because now I said it, I'm just checking.
So he's done two, he did Mindhunter, which I think counts for some of that contract.
Shut up!
Mindhunter's great, don't...
No, it's fine, but it's not a fucking Fincher film, so...
Oh mate, you need to re-watch it, it's incredible.
Mmmmm...
Is it though?
Last time I saw it, I was very, very excited.
Right yeah, you need to give it a go.
This is Fincher leaving the industry and going, I'm going to go somewhere that gives me enough
money to tell an interesting story.
This was made for 25 mil, Ben.
That's crazy that it costs that little to make something this beautiful.
Right, it looks incredible, it's an homage to everything we love about that era of filmmaking
and it's for Netflix, chump change.
So he's just there going, I'm out, I'm done.
I'm not going to have another Alien 3 on my hands.
I'm sick of all these cancelled projects, I'm just going to go somewhere where I can
have an idea, get the money for it, get it made and move on.
Oh do you know what, fair play to him man.
Fair play to him.
So this is a Ben Gross perfect film because he's doing what Mankiewicz is doing.
Fuck all of y'all, I'm out.
Yeah, dude he's killing it.
He is killing it.
I love this.
Okay, well my rating of this film has just gone up, because it has to, because I've been
backed into a corner.
Because it's got Gary Oldman in it.
Okay, can we just take a moment to chat a little bit about Gary Oldman.
We're talking about perfect films and we're talking about definition of perfect films.
I also have a definition for a perfect actor and that's someone that blends into a role
so well that you forget that it's them.
You forget the actor that plays it but you don't forget the character.
Now Gary Oldman, off the top of my head I could probably name you three films.
One of them being Tiptoes.
And that's because they're the ones I actively think about and go, that's Gary Oldman.
There are countless films that I've seen and gone, fuck me Gary Oldman's amazing.
And then the next day I will only ever refer to that person as the character.
You know what I mean?
Like General Zorg.
You know what I mean?
But that's the fifth element.
I didn't even remember that he was in fifth element.
You just said that, jogs my memory.
And I'm like, of course he is.
Of course he is.
He's in Leon.
Oh my God, he is in Leon.
He's in Leon.
He's in Hannibal as well.
Do you see what I'm saying though?
This is what I mean.
People always forget these ones.
This is the thing.
He blends into it so well that you just forget.
Dracula, man.
Yeah, Dracula.
I think about that film all the time and it only ever clicks when someone's like, yeah
but Gary Oldman's good.
I'm like, oh yeah it is Gary Oldman.
Francis Ford Coppola's Dracula, kind of ruined, was responsible for the one point that I don't
give Nosferatu out of 10.
Because the number of times I was watching Eggers Nosferatu and I was like, ah, Bram
Stoker's Dracula.
Right?
And it's such a memorable performance.
It's such a memorable bit of high camp.
The only thing I can subtract from Nosferatu is that it's not Gary Oldman.
Yeah, okay.
No, that's great.
I'll agree.
But my point is, Gary Oldman is one of the perfect actors.
Yeah, 100%.
He's 100%.
It's him and Meryl Streep.
Yeah, a thousand percent.
You could, Kevin Smith often says that Ben Affleck is his actor and if he was going to
make a remake of Jaws, he'd cast Ben Affleck as the shark.
100%.
Because Ben Affleck could play it.
And I'm like, I disagree with him on that.
I don't.
Gary Oldman or Meryl Streep.
A thousand percent could.
They could play the shark.
They could do it.
A hundred percent could play the shark.
Yeah, and I'd forget it was them in a week and I'd just talk about the shark.
The anatomically correct, not human shark.
You want to play a game?
I'd love to.
Right.
And you said, you love this era of cinema.
I do.
Let's find out, shall we?
Oh, man.
Let's find out how much you love.
What was Marilyn Monroe's, this is a random Buzzfeed quiz.
I'm going to fail on this one, mate, because all my shit is like 50s sci-fi.
Right, okay.
If the Incredible Shrinking Man's in here, look out.
Okay, well, I don't know what the answers are until the end.
Okay, well, let's find out.
Let's go.
What was Marilyn Monroe's final unfinished film?
Was it Some Like It Hot, The Misfits, Let's Make Love or Something's Got to Give?
Let's Make Love.
I will put it in, but it wasn't.
It was Something's Got to Give.
Oh, god damn it.
All right.
Yeah, I didn't know that one.
I don't know any of these.
Okay.
Which actor married both Jar Jar Gabor and her sister Magda Gabor?
Was it George Sanders, Gregory Peck, Humphrey Bogart or Frank Sinatra?
Just let me check my fucking 1950s marriage log in my memory bank.
You said you love this, mate.
You said you said this is your specialist subject.
C.
George Sanders, Gregory Peck, Humphrey Bogart or Frank Sinatra?
Let's go Bogart.
No, why not?
Bogart.
It was George Sanders, mate.
Oh, yeah, obviously.
Colonel Sanders.
Of course.
Yeah, Colonel Sanders.
There we go.
Between opening chicken shops.
Which movie did Bette Davis receive her first Oscar?
D.
Jezebel.
No, it's Dangerous, 1935.
Oh, I like playing it this way.
All right, let's go.
Who was one of the few to dance with both Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly in a film?
Dude, you should get this one.
Who was one of the few who've danced with both Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly in a film?
Ginger Rogers, Sid Suresh, Eleanor Powell or Shirley MacLean?
B.
I'm sticking with my answers.
I'm going is this...
It was B. Sid Suresh.
Yeah.
This quiz is now, is Ben a psychic?
Right, okay.
Who never appeared in an Alfred Hitchcock film?
C.
Doris Day.
Oh, no, wait.
Give me the options.
You could have named any actor after 1990.
All right, A.
Grace Kelly.
Yeah, why not?
Yeah, no, she was...
Yeah, no.
So I'm not a psychic on that one.
That's fine.
I'm not, no, no.
Due to copyright issues, which of these silent horror classics was ordered to be destroyed?
Okay.
Was it Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde?
Yeah.
Nosferatu, The Hunchback of Notre Dame or The Phantom of the Opera?
Which one was ordered to be destroyed?
Due to copyright issues.
Ooh.
You're going to kick yourself if you don't get it.
Hold on, because now I'm on the spot.
Was it Dr. Jekyll and Hyde?
Sorry, buddy.
It was Nosferatu, a film we've not talked about in literally years.
There you go.
The only one...
See, this is the thing.
All I was thinking was, which one isn't on YouTube?
Okay, buddy.
I'm going to say...
Two out of ten.
Ten out of ten on that one, mate.
Ten out of ten.
That's fine.
Two out of ten on the psychic scale.
You know what I mean?
Ten out of ten on the aura scale.
Ten out of ten on the effort.
You've shown good effort.
You've got up to speed with your shapes.
Thanks, man.
You're good with your animals now.
Yeah.
And now you just need to learn the things that you claim you're a super fan of.
Okay, super fan A. 50 sci-fi.
Quiz me off.
Okay.
Ray Harryhausen.
I'm looking at you, buddy.
Also, I'm playing at a disadvantage because I've got...
Hey, we're going to Ibiza.
Playing in my headphones.
You know what I mean?
Right.
So, in other words, you played yourself.
I did.
I did, I did, I did.
I went up and down.
Congratulations, Khaled.
But it's because we like to party.
You know what I mean?
That quiz, my answers just went boom, boom, boom, boom.
I violently, violently hate this.
What are you going to rate, mank?
It was going to be an 8.5.
It was going to be.
Right.
But you have pointed out that it is objectively a perfect movie because I didn't understand
the...
Yeah, I didn't see it from the viewpoint of...
Fincher's middle finger.
Fincher telling Hollywood to f*** off whilst making a film about someone telling Hollywood
to f*** off.
With a script his dad wrote.
Which is amazing.
So it's a fat 10.
Has to be.
Yeah.
Has to be a fat 10, categorically.
It was going to be an 8.5 because it's gorgeous film.
The sound.
I can't get over the sound, mate.
It literally, it's the most soul warming thing in existence.
Gorgeous.
Incredible.
How about you?
What are you rating it?
I'm going to rate this fetish porn and let me explain that.
So fat 10 for you.
Let me explain it.
I know you for a fact are really into videos of women in high heels standing on spiders.
Right?
Now, if you're not into that kind of thing, it's not for you.
But if you are into that kind of thing, there's very, very little of it about.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
If you're not into Citizen Kane, if you are one of the many people who didn't listen to
our last episode because you don't want to watch Citizen Kane.
There's plenty of you.
Right.
Thank you.
I'm just going to say, skip this one as well because it's not for you.
It's a bit late for that to be honest with you, mate.
This is the sign off.
If this is your kink, if this is your kink, there is nothing else like it.
It's a fat 10.
If you like your fifties movies and you're a fan of Citizen Kane, you're an idiot for
not watching this.
Seriously.
Like get on it.
Seriously.
Go watch it immediately.
It's incredible.
This is coming from me, like literally Beach Babes From Beyond, Hunter's Blood.
I'm all over it.
Starship Troopers cinematic masterpiece.
Go watch Mank.
I'm telling you, there's some juice.
You know what I mean?
There is some juice.
There's some juice.
Go milk it.
If you want any more juice, go to JL Butchers.
Their meat's really good and they send it to you through the post.
They send fucking one of us stuff in the post, apparently.
That's what sponsorship this was.
Super happy I yes-handed my way through that one.
Yeah.
Ben, do you check the Instagram messages?
Because you could have read that conversation at any point.
You could have been like, oh, I'll have some too.
Obviously I don't.
The only thing I do on Instagram is tell people, if you let us help promote Toxic Avenger,
I'll go and get a tattoo of your company logo.
And then when people go bet, I'm like, shit, I've got to go get a company logo.
If anyone listening could get in touch with Cineverse, C-I-N-E-verse or the Toxic Avenger
movie on Instagram and just say, hey, we listen to the Every Movie Ever podcast and we would
love to hear those boys cover your movie before release.
That'd just be the most wonderful thing.
That would be almost as delicious as a wonderful box of sponsored meat sent by JL Butchers.
Hold on.
I've just fucking checked Instagram.
Ross.
Ross sent you the meats.
Oh, this is what we do in her.
Oh, I see.
I see.
Ben.
It's the third message in.
Ben.
All right.
There's pictures.
That looks incredible.
Yeah.
Oh my days.
That was cheese and Marmite sausage, mate.
That's ridiculous.
It was.
That is ridiculous.
Yeah, it was mint.
What an absolute diamond for sending you that.
Incredible.
I love him.
Right.
I think we're out of time, babe.
We are.
Unfortunately, guys, that is all the time we have for this week.
But just before we wrap the show up, if you've enjoyed this episode and you want to support
the show, you can leave us a review wherever you're listening to us right now.
Tell a friend about us.
It helps us more than you know.
World of Mouth is king, buddy.
It really is.
If you want more show, more content, and an extra episode every month, we did this month's
about the substance.
Substance.
And we are very happy with that episode.
Yes.
You can support us over on Patreon for as little as a pound.
It's literally just a paywall so we know we're talking to friends and can say whatever we
want.
That's all it is.
It's a quid a month and you get all the extra stuff.
Plus you also get direct access to our pockets.
Yeah.
Juicy.
The messaging is big.
Guys, thank you so much for hanging out with us.
We love and appreciate each and every one of you more than you will ever know.
Thank you again.
It really does mean the world to us and to thank you for that.
Spending an hour of your week with us, especially at the start of the week.
We know a lot of you listen on a Monday.
Ben is going to wrap up the thoughts, themes and feelings of this movie.
Little pep talk, a little Monday motivational pep talk.
I've got this down mate.
Well I just do what the Hollywood machine's always done and tell you to consume.
If you're alone and you need a friend, just someone to make you forget your problems.
Just come along, baby.
Take my hand.
I'll be your lover tonight.
Whoa, whoa.
That's what I want to do.
Thank you, boy.
Whoa, whoa.
Let's have some fun.
Whoa, whoa.
I want to mourn it's me and you.
Whoa, whoa.
Boom, boom, boom, boom.
Full circle, baby.
It's just an actual comedy.