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So we should explain then, obviously we've got the Patreon running now.

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Patreon's up.

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So the bits that the Patreon gets are the bits that no one's ever heard, which is...

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Do you want to explain what our safe word is?

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Pineapple.

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Pineapple.

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And when we say pineapple, what does that generally mean?

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It means, snip this out please buddy.

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We're about to talk.

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This is a peek behind the curtain, snip this out.

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I'm nervous.

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If you're on Patreon listening to this right now, welcome.

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You can hear all the pineapple.

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Enjoy the pineapple, man.

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Pull up a seat, grab some fruit.

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Know what I mean?

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Shall we start the show?

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Yes!

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Hello everyone and welcome to the Every Media, the podcast.

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My name is Ben Groves.

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My name is Rob Macfarlane.

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Welcome to the show, a movie podcast slash mental health check-in for two broken-brained

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best friends talking around their problems, but not about their problems whilst, you

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know, laughing at movies.

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So Ben, before we get to what we're doing, I've got to ask a more important question.

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How are you doing?

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I'm doing really fucking good, man.

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Oh yeah, yeah you are.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I'm doing really good.

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I couldn't talk about it until now, but I have a new job.

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You do?

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So that's happening.

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I'm not ill anymore?

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No.

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My illness is gone?

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No, Morrissey is wrong.

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You are not still ill.

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Oh, shut up.

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It's all, it's actually all coming up gravy to be honest with you.

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There's not really much I can grumble at.

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How are you?

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Good.

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Happy for you.

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Excellent.

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Thanks, babe.

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I'm still ill.

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So Morrissey's right.

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I can Morrissey.

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That's, but let me be clear.

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Let me be clear.

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I mean, let me be clear.

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Let me be clear.

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That's the only thing Morrissey is right about is that I am still ill.

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There's no other views of his that I agree with.

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So, good safe.

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Good safe.

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I don't have a new job and I'm very poor.

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Very poor.

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Same mate.

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I think everyone is at the minute.

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Right.

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So yeah, I'm fine.

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I'm fine.

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I'm getting on.

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We're getting on.

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What are we doing?

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What are we doing this week, Ben?

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This week, buddy, in our quest to cover every David Fincher movie ever.

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Yep.

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We are hot on the case to find out who is the Zodiac, baby.

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Well, no, we're not a true to crime show.

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We're like, we're more than mental health awareness show than true wine, true wine.

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We're a true wine podcast.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Smashed it with an H for you and without the H for me.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Just sat here with a tank.

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That's fine.

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We got lots to get into this week.

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We're going to get into why this is Fincher's most personal film.

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No, he's not the Zodiac.

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Be a.

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What's these three protagonists say about self worth and how it's defined?

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What's Fincher's best directorial technique and why this film might be the perfect example

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of it?

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The gorgeous example.

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And Fincher is not an obsessive, but he knows about it and how this film may have actually

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solved who the Zodiac killer is for people in real life.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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But to reiterate that, this is us covering David Fincher.

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This is not a true crime show.

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We're not going to get that heavy into the details of the case because it's a two hour

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45 minute film about that.

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And the film is what we're talking about.

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Not the case.

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Yes.

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Right?

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No.

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But before we do that, mate.

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What's Fincher been doing?

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Where that Fincher at, bro?

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Right.

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Where that man been?

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Well, I'll tell you.

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Where that man been?

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Since Panic Room, our boy, Davey F.

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Aye.

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Has been on a god danged spree, mate.

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Like a proper binge of starting projects.

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Okay.

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And then cancelling them.

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Okay.

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So who?

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Post Panic Room, there was an adaptation of Anthony Bourdain's memoir, Kitchen Confidential.

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Okay.

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Which was the first kind of warts and all story of what it's like to work in a professional

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kitchen.

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It's very good book.

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Okay.

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That eventually got made into a mini series called Kitchen Confidential, starring Bradley

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Cooper.

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Oh, that's cool.

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There was a film called Chemical Pink.

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There was an adaptation of Hard Boiled, Frank Miller's three issue comic book series.

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It would have had Nicholas Cage in the lead role.

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Mate, that would have been amazing.

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He was one of the directors approach for confessions of a dangerous mind for the Lion, the Witch

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and the Wardrobe, which would have been an insane version of that story.

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I want Fincher's version of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

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Right.

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It's just Panic Room, but the young kid goes into a fantasy like, yeah.

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Pan's labyrinth meets a child in a wardrobe.

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It's the coma.

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It's the coma that Kristen Stewart has.

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Yeah.

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I'm with the Lions.

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I want that so bad.

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He was looking to make a really violent version of Mission Impossible 3.

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I turned into Sean Connery there.

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But yeah, Tom Cruise was like, no, no.

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God damn.

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Come on, Cruise.

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And the list goes on and on and on.

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There was a huge amount.

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He was away.

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He was out of, this is a big gap.

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This is the biggest gap I think he's had in his career.

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I can list Lord's Dogtown, Deadwood Pilot, The Lookout, The Time Traveller's Wife, The

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Dirt, The Black Dahlia, Torso.

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But you've got an approach to the Time Traveller's Wife.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Imagine seeing a David Fincher film going, God, he'd really do well for my affecting

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slob story.

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Right.

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I've written this book called The Time Traveller's Wife.

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We're going to action it into a movie.

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What I need from you, Rob, is I need you to suggest a film that you've seen recently

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that really screams Time Traveller's Wife to me.

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Fight Club.

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Oh yeah, sound.

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Sign me up.

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Let's get the director on board.

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Let's go.

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Yeah.

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That's exactly the aesthetic I want for The Time Traveller's Wife.

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But then he eventually, he lands on this and there's reasons that I'm going to tell

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you and you, dear listener, as to why he picks this script.

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Amazing.

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Set the scene for us, Ben.

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It's 2007.

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Oh, is it?

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Apple CEO Steve Jobs pulls a tiny glass rectangle called the iPhone out on stage and changes

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the lives of millions of Chinese children.

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Keeping up with the Kardashians.

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Keeping up with the Kardashians.

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Debutes on network television.

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Changing the lives of millions of men trying to enjoy an evening with their girlfriend.

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The British Army pull out of Ireland, ending the longest running British Army operation

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of all time, having ruined the lives of millions for hundreds of years.

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Yeah, we should do an episode on Win That Shakes The Barley one day.

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Just really dig into that generational film.

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Yeah, sure.

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Dead certain that two English guys have loads to say about that film.

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Great.

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That'll be a really welcome opinion.

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David Fincher is given $65 million to make Zodiac.

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Okay.

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It's not the worst thing I've seen attached to the phrase $65 million.

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Thanks, Adam Driver.

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Right.

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Right.

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I watched that again recently.

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How did you make time travel and dinosaurs boring?

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Yeah.

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How?

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How did laser guns time travel and dinosaurs and somehow it's a terrible film?

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It's literally.

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Right.

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Oh my God.

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What does this film mean to you, Ben?

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Is this another one of your, you'd not seen it and you'd watched it for this and went,

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oh, it's actually quite good.

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No, no, no, no, no.

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I've seen this.

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I've seen this a bunch.

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Right.

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I think I saw this in the cinema, although I don't really remember that far back, if

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I'm honest.

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Great date movie.

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A great date movie.

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Yeah.

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I'll give you a lift back now.

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Not to beat a baby at the window.

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Although why they'd have brought the baby to the cinema to see Zodiac?

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I don't know.

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It's just good parenting choices at that point.

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You know what I mean?

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100%.

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I've seen it a couple of times.

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It's one of those films that I've always enjoyed and it's never done much for me in

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the ways of like, wow, I'm desperate to watch this again.

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Yeah.

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But every time I start watching it, it has this weird ability.

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I know where it goes.

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I know how it ends.

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I know the twists and turns, but there is, there's something about this film that just

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keeps me on the edge of my seat no matter how many times I see it.

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Yeah.

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Oh God.

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Yeah.

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I watched it twice for this and I was on the edge of my seat both times and it was

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like back to back.

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Yeah.

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So I agree.

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This for me is one of those Sunday afternoon movies.

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So you know, yes, it is.

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It's like the Godfather.

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I've never chosen to put a Godfather film on or goodfellas.

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I never choose to put goodfellas on, but every time I catch it, I've missed a chunk

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of it.

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Yeah.

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I've seen goodfellas hundreds of times.

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I've probably seen the first 10 minutes three times.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's just sticky.

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It's just a sticky watch.

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Now, for the benefit of those that haven't seen this film in a long time and want a little

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bit of a refresh on what happens and what it's about so that when we get into the weeds

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of discussing it later, you're not, you know, left in the dark.

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Yeah.

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Or for those people who haven't seen it and never planned to, we're going to break down

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the plot of the movie.

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So this is your sort of final spoiler warning.

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Final spoiler warning.

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Also, if you're never planning on watching this film, grow up.

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All right.

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Ben, do you want to kick us off, mate?

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Sure.

269
00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,960
So, I'm gonna break down.

270
00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:29,960
Zodiac.

271
00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,800
Follows the investigation into the Zodiac killer, a mysterious and brutal murderer who terrorized

272
00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:40,780
Northern California in the late 1960s and early 1970s.

273
00:09:40,780 --> 00:09:44,880
After the Zodiac begins sending coded letters and taunting messages to the San Francisco

274
00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:51,260
Chronicle, Robert Graysmith, a quiet cartoonist at the paper, becomes intrigued by the case

275
00:09:51,260 --> 00:09:56,900
alongside crime reporter Paul Avery and determined detective Dave Toshy.

276
00:09:56,900 --> 00:10:00,640
Graysmith is drawn deeper into the complex mystery.

277
00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:06,640
Despite Toshy's relentless efforts to connect the clues and Avery's initial zeal, the killer

278
00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:11,600
remains elusive and their attempts lead to a series of dead ends and frustrations.

279
00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:12,600
Beautiful.

280
00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:13,600
Thank you.

281
00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,920
As years pass without an arrest, Graysmith's interest turns into an intense obsession.

282
00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:23,440
He scours cryptic codes, decipher letters and retraces steps in the case, even as others

283
00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,800
lose interest or become disillusioned.

284
00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:32,000
This fixation begins to consume his life, straining his relationships and pushing him to the edge

285
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,000
of sanity.

286
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:38,320
His search grows increasingly dangerous as he investigates potential suspects, notably

287
00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:43,920
Arthur Lee Allen, whose connection to the crimes leads Graysmith to confront him despite

288
00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,040
a lack of conclusive evidence.

289
00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:51,360
The trail-growing colder Avery's life spirals into addiction, whilst Toshy's reputation

290
00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,520
suffers under the strain of the unresolved case.

291
00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:59,200
Graysmith, however, refuses to let go and writes a book Chronicle in the investigation,

292
00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,920
hoping to uncover the truth that has eluded them all.

293
00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:08,240
Zodiac ends with a sense of unsettling ambiguity as Graysmith's journey shows both the relentless

294
00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:13,960
pursuit of justice and the personal toll of an obsession that offers little closure,

295
00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,440
even as new details emerge that deepen the mystery.

296
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,440
It's a three hour 50, because I watched the director's cut because I'm a nerd, right?

297
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:30,640
Three hours and 50 minutes that obsessively follows the details of a very complex case

298
00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:35,440
involving lots of characters and lots of moment-to-moment changes.

299
00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:40,000
So trying to summarize it with any sort of detail is mental.

300
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:41,000
It's impossible.

301
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,800
I started and then I was like, no, I'm just going to go vague.

302
00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:49,480
Just quickly, though, the director's cut is three hours and 50 minutes.

303
00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,320
Three hours and 47, I think.

304
00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,240
Yeah, there's a couple of scenes added.

305
00:11:53,240 --> 00:12:01,720
There's a long two-minute black screen, which is just radio news reports and songs and it's

306
00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:02,720
the four-year gap.

307
00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:07,520
He basically plays special events through all of those four years.

308
00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:13,000
There's investigative bits where they recap all the details of the case to date when they're

309
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:17,080
trying to get a search warrant for Arthur Lee Allen's trailer.

310
00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:22,560
They have to be on the phone with the DA or the judge to try and get the warrant.

311
00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:26,680
And so they sort of reiterate the details of the case, which is actually really helpful

312
00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:31,720
because it's one of the few times that evidence against the suspect is summarized and you

313
00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,560
get like a full top-to-bottom list of all the circumstantial stuff.

314
00:12:35,560 --> 00:12:36,840
Right, right, right, okay.

315
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,080
It's a long film and it's a deep film.

316
00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:45,280
And I genuinely think it's probably Fincher's most personal film.

317
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:46,280
Right, okay.

318
00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:51,480
Because not just you, quite a few people have spoken to it, but David Fincher's British.

319
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,560
Yeah, I've always assumed that he's British.

320
00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:59,200
So he grew up in San Francisco Bay area in the late 1960s and the early 1970s.

321
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,160
I have no idea why I thought he was English.

322
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:03,160
No clue at all.

323
00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,880
His family came to Northern California during the mid-1960s when he was young, young, young.

324
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,400
George Lucas soon moved on to David Fincher's street.

325
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,080
Francis Ford Coppola was around there as well.

326
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,240
It was like movie street, basically.

327
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:16,240
Jesus.

328
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:22,640
American Graffiti and THX 1138 are all shot basically in Fincher's childhood neighborhood.

329
00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:23,640
Jesus.

330
00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,080
Dude, he came from money, man.

331
00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:26,080
Right, this thing.

332
00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,960
So he, well, he said this is quite funny.

333
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:34,400
David Fincher, I quote, I remember coming home and saying the highway patrol had been

334
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,080
following our school buses for a couple of weeks now.

335
00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,920
And my dad, who worked from home and who was very dry, not want to soft pedal things,

336
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:46,400
turned slowly in his chair and said, oh yeah, there's a serial killer who was killed four

337
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:51,480
or five people who cause himself to zodiac, who's threatened to take a high powered rifle

338
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,640
and shoot out the tires of a school bus and then shoot the children as they come off the

339
00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:56,640
bus.

340
00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:57,640
Wow.

341
00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:58,640
Wow.

342
00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:05,360
You're beginning to get a little sense of why David Fincher might be quite so direct.

343
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,760
It sounds like his dad was a delight.

344
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,320
I thought my dad was bad for leaving when I was six.

345
00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:12,320
Right.

346
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:13,880
I'd prefer it over that.

347
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,000
I think I'm lucky in comparison.

348
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,640
I think we both missed out on a lot of shit.

349
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:25,280
So those scenes with school children getting off buses, Fincher was on one of them.

350
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:26,280
That's nutty.

351
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:27,280
That's actually nutty.

352
00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,000
I'm going to tell you some stuff now that's going to be really relevant later.

353
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,440
So he doesn't enroll in film school.

354
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:37,800
He takes a job as a PA at a small independent studio, works out for a little while and then

355
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,080
gets a low level position at ILM, Industrial Light and Magic.

356
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:43,080
That's cool.

357
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,320
You know the ATSTs, the chicken walkers at the end of Return of the Jedi.

358
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:47,520
He helped make them.

359
00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:48,520
That's amazing.

360
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:49,520
Isn't it?

361
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,680
That makes Jedi even better.

362
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,560
One of his first film credits is Return of the Jedi.

363
00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,720
I'm beginning to fall in love with this man.

364
00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,960
He said, I didn't want to go to film school.

365
00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:02,120
I didn't know what the point was.

366
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,000
The fact of the matter is, you don't know what directing is until the sun is setting

367
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,640
and you've got to get five shots and you're only going to get two.

368
00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:10,640
Right.

369
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:11,640
Okay.

370
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:12,640
That's incredible.

371
00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,720
Then he says, I went to a place called the Barkley Film Institute for a summer program

372
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,800
with a friend of mine and we just thought it was a joke.

373
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,080
It was very impressionist, very Barkley.

374
00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,640
There were all these people who were there to communicate and change the world, to do

375
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:25,480
all these lofty things.

376
00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,320
And then they made these real shitty, stupid little movies.

377
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,240
And we were like, I'm not here for this.

378
00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,560
I'm just here to pull cable.

379
00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,200
He's a nerd.

380
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,000
He wants to know what everyone on set does.

381
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:45,560
And he spends that time at ILM being on set just going, what do you do?

382
00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:46,560
Love this.

383
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,880
And then the guy's talking to explaining it and him just shadowing him for a bit and

384
00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:51,800
go, okay, now I know what a focus puller does.

385
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:52,800
Nice.

386
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,760
And he does that for years rather than learning how to direct.

387
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:57,520
He learns on the job.

388
00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:58,880
Basically everyone's job.

389
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:00,400
Doesn't learn the director's job.

390
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,320
He learns everyone else's job.

391
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:03,320
That's amazing.

392
00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:04,320
And then starts making movies.

393
00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:05,320
He's made.

394
00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,640
This makes me respect him a lot more than I did.

395
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,120
And the fact that his first film credit is Jedi.

396
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:12,120
Way better.

397
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,040
It's one of his first because he worked on a bunch of stuff.

398
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,120
He then obviously goes into commercials and stuff.

399
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,880
But I love the idea that even at that early age, Finch who was kind of looking at the

400
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:28,240
world around him and deciding what he cared about and what mattered to him.

401
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:33,360
And then going, well, it's not these lofty ideals and it's not these great artsy chats.

402
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,400
It's the down in the dirt of the technical.

403
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:37,560
That's what I respect.

404
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,200
That's my like, that's my intent.

405
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:41,400
And that's what matters to me.

406
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:42,400
That's what I value.

407
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,960
The reason I love Zodiac so much is everyone that's listening.

408
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:49,760
If you're a new listener, welcome to the show.

409
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:51,680
Also, I have an issue with myself with.

410
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,120
And you're a 35 year old podcast set.

411
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,760
You don't need to tell people that it comes with a gig.

412
00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:58,760
I just, I need it.

413
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,200
It's like a subtitle at this point.

414
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:01,200
You know what I mean?

415
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:02,880
This is closed captions on an audio show.

416
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,080
You are welcome, dear listeners.

417
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:09,000
I struggle with myself worth and I define myself by what I can bring to the table.

418
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,000
Yes, you do.

419
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:18,520
Finch are in this film challenges that so hard, so fervorantly that it is impossible to miss.

420
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:19,520
Right.

421
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,680
And he's got, you've got your three, you got your three protagonists.

422
00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,400
Got your cop, which is, is it Toshi?

423
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:26,400
Yeah.

424
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:27,400
Dave Toshi.

425
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,240
He's described, or he's not described.

426
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,640
He's factually the inspiration for Dirty Harry.

427
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:32,640
He is.

428
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,320
And there are so many Dirty Harry references in this.

429
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:35,320
It's amazing.

430
00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:36,320
It is amazing.

431
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:43,880
Um, but you've got the cop who is, he's portrayed as is invested, but he's done with the case.

432
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:44,880
He needs it to be over now.

433
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:46,240
He wants it to be over.

434
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:47,240
There's other crime happening.

435
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:48,280
He needs to move on from this.

436
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:53,480
This can't be his, his sort of like defining moment because it's mental and it's insane

437
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,440
and there's no, there's no moving past it.

438
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:56,440
Right.

439
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,280
And he is contractually obligated to find the Zodiac.

440
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:00,280
Yes, he is.

441
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:01,280
To protect the people.

442
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:02,280
Yeah.

443
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,160
He's a small piece of a much larger machine.

444
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,480
He wants this and only this from this case.

445
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:08,480
Yeah.

446
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,160
Once it ended moving on, not trying to be more, it's not, not getting anything else from it.

447
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:13,960
It needs to be done, move on with career.

448
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:14,960
Right.

449
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:15,960
Yeah.

450
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:16,960
That's what's represented with that masculine input there.

451
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:18,960
That sort of like, this is what he's getting out of it.

452
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:19,960
Yeah.

453
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:20,960
And you've got the reporter.

454
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:22,200
You've got Avery, Paul Avery.

455
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:23,200
Yeah.

456
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,920
He's got a great business opportunity, a career defining story.

457
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:32,640
He tries to insert himself in the center of the story and be the person to go to about

458
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:33,640
anything to do with the Zodiac.

459
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:35,320
It's kind of a meal ticket in a way.

460
00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:36,320
Like he's a meal ticket.

461
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,600
He's in it for the right reasons, but he's also aware of how it benefits him.

462
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:40,600
Exactly.

463
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:41,600
Right.

464
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,080
So he's portrayed as this self important big shot.

465
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,040
It's very sort of like, you know, puffed out chests.

466
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:47,040
Yeah.

467
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:48,040
Oh, this is me.

468
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:49,040
This is what I, this is what I am.

469
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:50,040
This is who I am.

470
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:56,280
This is helping me define my presence, not just in the newspaper world, in the journalism

471
00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:57,280
world.

472
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,400
It is like, as a person in life, right?

473
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:01,400
And he falls off.

474
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:02,400
Yeah.

475
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,280
He falls off the second that it's out of his control, the second that people are like,

476
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:06,280
shut up.

477
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:07,440
You're nothing to do with this case.

478
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:08,680
You are literally a reporter.

479
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:09,680
Yeah.

480
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,840
The story, the need to be relevant, it all runs him into the ground, ends up in addiction,

481
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:14,840
horrid, right?

482
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:15,840
Yes.

483
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,720
So you've got two needs that are getting from this case and you're like, oh, okay.

484
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,760
Well, this is kind of crippling because I think we've been both of those people in the

485
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:23,760
past.

486
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:24,760
We've definitely been both of those people.

487
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:25,760
Do you know what I mean?

488
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,400
I see Paul Avery and I'm like, oh, that was my career.

489
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:28,400
Yeah.

490
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:29,400
A thousand percent, right?

491
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,280
But then I will value myself when other people value my career.

492
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:34,280
Exactly.

493
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:35,280
Right.

494
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:36,840
And it's those two things that come into this.

495
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,440
But then Fincher, he throws this like boomerang in there.

496
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,320
It's just a spanner in the works.

497
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:42,840
He throws Gray Smith in.

498
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:43,840
Right.

499
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:45,320
Gray Smith is like a low level cartoonist.

500
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:46,840
He's got no respect at that paper.

501
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,120
I mean, he shows like six of his cartoons that he's been working on.

502
00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:53,600
The editor is just sort of like horrid, horrid, horrid, horrid.

503
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:54,600
We'll go with the least horrid.

504
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:55,600
Yeah.

505
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:56,600
Yeah.

506
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:57,600
We'll go with not so horrid.

507
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,640
And it's like, just no one cares about his stuff at all.

508
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,560
He's just, he's just a nerd who loves puzzles.

509
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:03,560
Yep.

510
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:04,560
This is it.

511
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:05,560
It does it for fun.

512
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:06,960
He just wants to see the end of the story.

513
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,000
There is nothing in it for him other than just wants the answer to the riddle.

514
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,240
He just wants an answer to a puzzle.

515
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:12,240
Yeah.

516
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:13,240
That's all it is.

517
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,800
He keeps himself small, but he is inexplicably the one who runs with it.

518
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,080
To the point of absolute detriment, right?

519
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:21,080
Yeah.

520
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:22,080
Yeah.

521
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,240
He's portrayed as this really nice, quiet guy, boy scout, very, doesn't swear, doesn't

522
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,640
smoke, rarely drinks.

523
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:33,920
He's the guy that develops an obsession to a point where he loses everything.

524
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:34,920
Yeah.

525
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:35,920
Everything.

526
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:36,920
Yeah.

527
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:37,920
Yeah.

528
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:43,520
Kids, new wife, he gets himself into these ridiculous situations that are so incredibly

529
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:44,520
dangerous.

530
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:45,520
Yeah.

531
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,520
He gets himself into this point in a little bit because this film broke me in places.

532
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:50,520
This is one of them.

533
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,400
Gets himself into these situations because of his obsession, right?

534
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:54,400
Yeah.

535
00:20:54,400 --> 00:21:00,360
The motivation or the intention is what defines the caliber of the man in this film.

536
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:01,360
Yes.

537
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:02,360
100%.

538
00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:03,360
100%.

539
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:04,360
It's not what they're getting from it.

540
00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:05,360
No.

541
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:06,360
It's not what they're putting into it.

542
00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:10,160
Their self-worth is defined by their intention behind the motivation.

543
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:16,320
I love this, it span it so hard and so quick that it hit me directly in the gut and I was

544
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:17,440
like, oh.

545
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:23,080
It's rare to see like a salad of masculine motivation presented.

546
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:24,080
Right.

547
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:29,760
Here are three men with similar mechanisms of motivation for different sources.

548
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,760
What's interesting is a lot of it is quite fictional.

549
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,360
There's a really interesting balance of truth and fiction in this film.

550
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:38,360
Okay.

551
00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:41,360
Paul Avery is what I picked up on there.

552
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:44,640
There are things in here that are really, really, really true.

553
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:45,640
Right.

554
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,000
So Fincher went on an interview spree.

555
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:56,240
There are consultants on this film who consulted on how David was going to make it that are

556
00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:01,040
surviving victims of the Zodiac killer.

557
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,120
He interviewed all of the original witnesses and he said about it.

558
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:08,320
David Fincher to quote, you know, we could have made this movie without any reason.

559
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,480
We were never ever having interviewed anybody and we didn't want to do that.

560
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,320
We wanted to get the real story and we wanted them to know that we didn't just wanted to

561
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,560
depict their anonymous suffering as victim number four.

562
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:20,560
We wanted it.

563
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,920
We wanted to know what really happened and the fallout from it.

564
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,040
I feel a responsibility to that.

565
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:31,440
When you're portraying people's real lives, you owe them the responsibility and dignity

566
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,000
of telling them what you're going to do and then sticking to that.

567
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:36,000
That's incredible.

568
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:37,000
Right.

569
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:38,000
Hold on a sec.

570
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:43,280
So rather than do what Sam Raimi did for Doctor Strange.

571
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:44,280
Right.

572
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,920
And just go, I've got a story off the peg.

573
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,080
I'll just put some Marvel masks on it and...

574
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:50,080
Yeah.

575
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:51,920
Apparently there's a TV show about Scarlet Witch or something.

576
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:52,920
We've had someone watch it.

577
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:53,920
They've given us a brief rundown.

578
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,920
I'm just going to make Evil Dead 4.

579
00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,160
So rather than doing that, what he's done is he's gone.

580
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,960
I don't know if I can trust this police report or this interview.

581
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,640
I'm going to go ask that person.

582
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:10,000
That is the most respect to any source material that I've ever seen in my entire life.

583
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,440
Here's what's fascinating.

584
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:12,840
Respect for source material.

585
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:13,840
Yeah.

586
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:14,840
Varies wildly.

587
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,320
I'm going to go on to some other stuff he does.

588
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:17,320
Right?

589
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:18,320
Okay.

590
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,120
The only murders depicted are the ones for which there are surviving witnesses.

591
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:22,120
Okay.

592
00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:28,320
That he could sit down face to face and verify this was the Zodiac and we know exactly how

593
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:29,320
it looked.

594
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:30,320
Oh my God.

595
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:35,200
So there doesn't depict his first murder because no one was there.

596
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,160
So he can't create a version of it that's accurate.

597
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:39,160
It would be conjecture.

598
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:40,680
Jesus Christ.

599
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,560
The Lake Berryessa murders at the side of the lake where the two friends are having

600
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,880
a picnic and they get tied up and they get stabbed.

601
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:48,880
Yes.

602
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:49,880
Yes.

603
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:50,880
Yes.

604
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,680
In the years since that murder, the oak trees that they're sitting under were removed.

605
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:54,680
Okay.

606
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:59,280
So he found out how old the oak trees had been on the day of the murder.

607
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:00,280
How?

608
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:08,400
He bought mature oak trees at that age, dug holes and then helicoptered oak trees into

609
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,480
the same spot that they had been.

610
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:11,480
Get out.

611
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:12,480
Stop it now.

612
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:13,640
Here's the thing.

613
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,080
That's so Christopher Nolan.

614
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:16,080
Right.

615
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,080
But it's not.

616
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:18,080
And I'll tell you why.

617
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:19,080
Okay.

618
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:26,080
Everything to do with the facts of the criminal case is as close to reality as possible and

619
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,640
exempt from subjective storytelling in this film.

620
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:30,800
I love this so much.

621
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,320
Do you know what this makes me feel?

622
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:33,320
Right.

623
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,440
This is making me, it's bubbling inside me.

624
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,760
I don't think I can hold it much longer, buddy.

625
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:38,760
It's a fucking...

626
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:39,760
David's convention.

627
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:40,760
Right.

628
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,520
I'm going to quote him again.

629
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,480
He said, our other mantra, you're going to love this.

630
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:51,200
Our other mantra was, let's make sure that we don't do a pastiche.

631
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:52,200
Yes, buddy.

632
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,400
Do you remember when we were talking about Maxine?

633
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:55,760
I love this guy.

634
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,720
It's one thing to do on a marge, but I didn't want to make a movie about sideburns.

635
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,480
I wanted it to be a movie about people.

636
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:06,560
I wanted it to be about the seventies in San Francisco that I knew growing up.

637
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:11,960
So when in doubt, I would reference old photos and go like, yeah, that's about how many Volkswagen

638
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:13,600
bugs you'd see on the street.

639
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:14,600
So that's what we'll do.

640
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:15,760
Oh my God.

641
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,680
He's not using the icons of the seventies, just slapdash.

642
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:20,680
Yeah.

643
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,960
Which Maxine, when I watched it, I was like, well, there's your kung fu and there's your

644
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,800
Reagan and there's your this and she's walking down the street and it's all the elements

645
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,640
of the eighties on one strip that she walks down in one scene.

646
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,280
Finch is like, no, there wouldn't be that many TVs in a window.

647
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,440
Not in San Francisco, but in Hollywood.

648
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:39,440
Come on.

649
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,760
There's at least four kung fu studios.

650
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:42,760
It's a different kind of thing.

651
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:43,760
Yeah, right.

652
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:44,760
Exactly.

653
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:50,240
Now, when it comes to the stuff that's to do with the Zodiac case, that's important

654
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:58,320
that it's remembered correctly and not misinterpreted as the stories get repeated, right, verbatim.

655
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,080
There's a load in this film that never happened.

656
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,560
Paul Avery was never destroyed by this case.

657
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,400
He didn't fall into addiction and then emphysema.

658
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,760
He was a healthy, happy family man.

659
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,040
Oh, he was very successful reporting on the Patty Hearst kidnapping.

660
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:15,040
Right.

661
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:16,040
Okay.

662
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:17,040
He didn't get ended by the case.

663
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,120
He just moved forwards with his own life.

664
00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:23,320
The Zodiac went quiet in a way that Robert Graysmith didn't.

665
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,560
And speaking of Robert Graysmith and Paul Avery, they never worked together like they

666
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:27,800
do in the movie.

667
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,640
They would just shared an office.

668
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:30,640
Amazing.

669
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:35,880
But their stories and their personal lives don't affect the justice outcome of the real

670
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:37,400
life Zodiac killer.

671
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,120
So that's where there's room to make a subjective point.

672
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:42,440
Do you know what I love about this?

673
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:47,640
He's not given a single shit about Paul Avery sitting down and watching this film.

674
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,360
Excuse me, I was not an addict living on a boat.

675
00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:52,920
They were like bits, right?

676
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:53,920
They're bits.

677
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,080
He's just gone, I'm going to magnify the shit out of these.

678
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,320
That's where I can tell a story and it won't affect people's memories.

679
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:02,320
I get that.

680
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:08,520
But I also love that it's been sort of like we have to absolutely 1000% respect the past

681
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,000
of the Zodiac killer.

682
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,000
Paul Avery now addict on a boat mate.

683
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:14,000
You were diet, right?

684
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,520
You had a weird lung disease by 50.

685
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:17,520
Absolutely.

686
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:18,520
Absolutely.

687
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:19,840
I love it.

688
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,400
I love the disrespect.

689
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,880
Should we take a quick break and hear from this week's sponsor?

690
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:25,880
Yes, let's do it.

691
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:31,480
Those of you who have not signed onto the Patreon are now listening to our very first ad segment.

692
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,960
Ben, who's our sponsor this week?

693
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,920
Sponsor this week, bud, is better help.

694
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:42,800
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695
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:48,280
cost of a very difficult to cancel $50 a month subscription fee?

696
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:49,880
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697
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,160
Because better help is here for you.

698
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:57,680
They will make it so, so much worse, making you pay money so that your deep childhood

699
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,560
cycle of abuse can be analysed by a homeopath.

700
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:06,520
Most importantly, better help make it nigh on impossible to cancel their services, adding

701
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:11,240
yet more stress to a mind already reaching out for help.

702
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:12,240
Better help?

703
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,880
Why fuck yourself when you can outsource it to someone else?

704
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:17,680
Fuck better help.

705
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:23,040
Reach out to mind, an actual charity, chuck to the brim with people who care.

706
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:24,040
That's right.

707
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,720
This has been an advert for mind all along.

708
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,520
Fuck better help right in the ear.

709
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,880
I think that went well for our first sponsored segment.

710
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,840
I would like to thank better help for reaching out to us.

711
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,080
We keep doing this.

712
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:40,080
Why is it?

713
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:41,080
Why have we got it?

714
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:42,600
Because some of you guys, I'll pay you money for something.

715
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:47,600
We're like, we will interrogate your morals and decide whether or not we want your money.

716
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:48,600
Yeah.

717
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:49,600
Nah.

718
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:50,600
Nah.

719
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:51,600
Nah, you're right, mate.

720
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:52,600
Screw the money.

721
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:53,600
You know what I mean?

722
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:54,600
Right.

723
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:55,600
Back to the movie.

724
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:56,600
This is almost my favourite Fincher film of all time.

725
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,640
Very, very almost my favourite Fincher film.

726
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,480
It's a very close second to Gongirl.

727
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:02,480
Right.

728
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:08,520
But the reason that Zodiac is almost my favourite Fincher film.

729
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:09,520
Right.

730
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,240
It's not for the story.

731
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,240
It's not for the acting.

732
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:13,240
It's not for the film itself.

733
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:14,240
Okay.

734
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:19,280
These little things that he does in this film that I never noticed until we watched Panic

735
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,000
Room and you were like, this is his playground.

736
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,400
This is how he learns stuff.

737
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:23,400
Look at the background.

738
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:24,400
Look at the composition.

739
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:25,400
Look at how the shots are put together.

740
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,080
Look at all the weird little things that he does to make it that little bit better.

741
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:30,080
And you know what, mate?

742
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:31,640
All I've done in this film is see that.

743
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:32,640
Right.

744
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,640
And I'm like, he did that in Panic Room, but just way shitter.

745
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,200
He's obviously learned from that.

746
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:37,200
That's amazing.

747
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,720
Because Panic Room was the dojo where he learned that stuff.

748
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,200
And then this is where he goes, I know how to do that now because I've done it before.

749
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,280
And ironically, it makes Panic Room a better film.

750
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:46,280
Yeah.

751
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,200
Panic Room doesn't make sense, but the soft blur and the background.

752
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:50,200
Have you seen it?

753
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:51,200
The lighting.

754
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:52,200
It's amazing.

755
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:57,680
But like, there's moments in Zodiac where time's passing.

756
00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:58,680
Yep.

757
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:04,040
And it does come up saying stuff like, you know, two weeks or four months or two years

758
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:05,040
or whatever.

759
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:06,040
How many times passed?

760
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,320
But it does these little things where the characters themselves, right?

761
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,960
If a week has passed and it's been a stressful week and a lot's happened and we're getting

762
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,840
caught up on a story and it's a stressful situation, every single person that's involved

763
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,760
and has been involved in that stressful situation looks a little bit more disheveled.

764
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:25,760
Really do.

765
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:26,760
Yeah.

766
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:27,760
But it's not a permanent thing.

767
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,480
It's just for that moment.

768
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,480
And then when they've rested or when something's concluded or when more time has passed and

769
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,680
they've moved on, they're back to like a rejuvenated version themselves.

770
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,680
And it's these little tweaks that are mental.

771
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:44,000
My favorite thing though, mate, and possibly my favorite scene in the entire film is a

772
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,880
skyscraper being built.

773
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:46,880
Like a time lapse of a...

774
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,360
Time lapse of it like being built really quickly.

775
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,240
Of a skyscraper going up.

776
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:56,080
And then night falls and it's almost like it's been built in a day or two and then it's

777
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:57,680
just lights everywhere.

778
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,880
It's gorgeous and that must have taken months.

779
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,120
Like months.

780
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,400
And it's amazing that it makes you feel like a day or two has passed.

781
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,280
And now there's just this enormous skyscraper.

782
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:09,280
Yeah, CGI.

783
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:10,280
Amazing.

784
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:11,280
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

785
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:12,280
Because you can't get that camera move.

786
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:13,280
Okay.

787
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:14,280
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

788
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:15,280
Sound.

789
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:16,280
Because all I was doing was thinking, this makes panic room a better film.

790
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,920
Every tiny thing that I noticed, this makes panic room a better film.

791
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,240
David Finch has got a really autistic camera.

792
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,560
I was chatting with one of our listeners.

793
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:25,560
It's unfeeling.

794
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:26,560
It's unemotional.

795
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:27,560
It's dispassionate.

796
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,560
It's documentary autism.

797
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:30,560
Yes.

798
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:31,560
Right?

799
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:32,560
Of just like...

800
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:33,560
I'm not talking about...

801
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,200
I can't remember what film we were talking about, but I referenced...

802
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,320
There's an Albert Camus book called The Stranger Where The Guy Shots A Guy and he's on trial

803
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,120
at the end and he gets put to death and the priest keeps coming to visit him and he's

804
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,480
like, you know, do you not feel sorry?

805
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:47,480
And he's like, no.

806
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:53,280
And then at the end of the movie, he looks up at the stars and he beholds the benign indifference

807
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:54,280
of the universe.

808
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:55,280
Yes.

809
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,040
That no matter what happens on earth, he's shot a guy.

810
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,040
The stars don't care.

811
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,040
Oh.

812
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,040
Okay.

813
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:02,800
The camera is very much the same.

814
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,160
It embodies that complete indifference.

815
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:06,160
Yes.

816
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:07,160
There's no God.

817
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:08,160
Yeah.

818
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,280
The clouds don't care that these two just got stabbed under a tree.

819
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:12,280
Yes.

820
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,040
They don't care that this taxi driver just got shot.

821
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:16,040
It's completely objective.

822
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:17,040
It's completely objective.

823
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:18,040
I love this.

824
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:19,040
I love this.

825
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:24,040
But what it does is it's the indifference of time moving forward.

826
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:25,040
Yeah.

827
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,040
And the world moving forward.

828
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:28,040
Yeah.

829
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,640
And people move forward except for the dead and the obsessed.

830
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,760
Oh my God.

831
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:35,760
No one in the...

832
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:36,760
Oh my God.

833
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,040
No one moves forward until they go.

834
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:39,040
I'm done with this.

835
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,040
Robert Graysmith never lets go.

836
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:46,040
So he stays stuck in the late 60s mentally.

837
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:47,760
Oh my God.

838
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,800
And it's told with a time lapse of a fucking building.

839
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:53,880
It brings out so much.

840
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:58,000
There are so many little bits of like building work taking place in the background.

841
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,000
Or just someone moving house.

842
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,000
And it's like these tiny things.

843
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,000
Yeah.

844
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,000
Yeah.

845
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:06,000
This is like...

846
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,000
This might be my favorite fincher technique that has ever existed.

847
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:10,000
It's brilliant.

848
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:11,000
Ever.

849
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,000
And I think of the times he uses it.

850
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,000
This is the most masterful.

851
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,000
It really, really is.

852
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,600
I was going to make a point.

853
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,000
I was watching the film and I was looking at Robert Graysmith.

854
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:29,000
And you know, we said in I think panic room at the end of every movie David Fincher says,

855
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,000
well at the start of every movie David Fincher says,

856
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,000
I'm going to use this one to learn how to let go of it.

857
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,000
And then at the end of every movie he goes,

858
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,000
I hated it because I was an obsessive control freak.

859
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,000
Yeah.

860
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:45,000
So sitting down to watch Zodiac, I think we can forgive me for going,

861
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,000
Robert Graysmith, he's a fincher surrogate and I was feeling all smug.

862
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:50,000
Yeah.

863
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,000
Feeling all smug about it, right?

864
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,000
Yeah.

865
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,000
But I don't, doing my research on this film, I don't think it's fair.

866
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,000
Okay.

867
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:57,000
How so?

868
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,000
There are examples of his obsession.

869
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:08,000
So Mark Ruffalo, Downey Jr. and Jake Gyllenhaal did multiple takes between 50 and 70 times.

870
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:09,000
Say that again?

871
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,000
Multiple takes of this movie took up to 70 takes.

872
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:14,000
Jesus.

873
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,000
Gyllenhaal hated it.

874
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,000
I can imagine.

875
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:18,000
He said, you get a take.

876
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,000
Five takes.

877
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,000
10 takes.

878
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,000
Some places, 90 takes.

879
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,000
Jesus.

880
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,000
But there is a stopping point.

881
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,000
There's a point at which you go, that's what we have to work with.

882
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,000
But we would reshoot things.

883
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:34,000
So there came a point where I would say, well, what do I do?

884
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,000
Where is the risk?

885
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,000
Yeah.

886
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,000
And I suppose for him, he's like, I'm trying to get a moment in time.

887
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:39,000
Right.

888
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:44,000
But if we just do it a thousand times, you'll have every possible variation of every possible

889
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:45,000
scene.

890
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,000
So at what point do you need an actor?

891
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,000
Just get a generative AI.

892
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,000
A publisher can never get into trading card games.

893
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,000
If he got into Pokemon, he would bankrupt himself.

894
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,000
He would.

895
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:57,000
No, I need every Charmander.

896
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,000
I need every Voltorb exists.

897
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,000
Because there might be a slight difference in the print.

898
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,000
This one has a little crease in it.

899
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,000
I need it.

900
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:09,000
Robert Downey Jr. said, I just decided, aside from several times I wanted to grot him, that

901
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,000
I was going to give him what he wanted.

902
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:18,000
I think I'm a perfect person to work for him because I understand gulags.

903
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:24,000
I love that man so much.

904
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,000
I love that man so much.

905
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,000
And then you've got the thing with the oak tree.

906
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,000
You've got the thing with the going back to re-interview people, making sure that he's

907
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,000
getting every detail of the case right.

908
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:35,000
Obsessive.

909
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:36,000
Obsessive.

910
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:37,000
I get it.

911
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,000
But then I started reading quotes from Fincher himself and I started realizing he's not.

912
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,000
He's just a professional, right?

913
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,000
Right.

914
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,000
I quote David Fincher here.

915
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,000
Give me a while to get comfortable with the idea of saying another one.

916
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,000
I want you to think about this.

917
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,000
You're so often you're pressed up against the glass going, please don't take this the

918
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,000
wrong way.

919
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,000
We're going to try one more.

920
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,000
Right.

921
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,000
You're not doing anything wrong.

922
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,000
We're going to do three weeks at the rehearsal.

923
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,000
We're going to do a table read.

924
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,000
We're going to open out of town.

925
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,000
We're going to have at least three previews.

926
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:07,000
And we're going to do all that today before lunch with this master take.

927
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:12,000
We're going to go through all of that so you can get to a place where you go, yeah, I've

928
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,000
tried this.

929
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:14,000
I've tried that.

930
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,000
It is really over here and everyone can feel good about the work.

931
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,000
That's what we're trying to tighten.

932
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,000
This is a lump of coal that we're trying to turn into a diamond.

933
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,000
If an actor is going to let the role come to them, they can't resent the fact that I'm

934
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,000
willing to wait as long as that takes.

935
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:30,000
Okay.

936
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,000
You know, the first day of production in San Francisco, we shot 56 takes of Mark and

937
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,000
Jake, and it's the 56th take that's in the movie.

938
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,000
Okay.

939
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:43,840
And then in another quote, which I haven't got in front of me, he talks about you build a set for 250,000

940
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,420
Yeah, you fly actors in from all over the world. You cherry pick your crew

941
00:36:48,420 --> 00:36:54,040
You get the best technology that's available to filmmakers at the time you spend

942
00:36:54,720 --> 00:37:00,440
65 million dollars making a film the aim of the your creative aim is

943
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,000
Supposed to be getting everyone out of there as soon as possible. Yeah, not at all

944
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:11,280
No, not at all. Okay. What we're working late. Fuck you. You're getting paid. Okay. What did you think this was?

945
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,680
Yeah, now that you've put it like that. Yeah, right

946
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:19,320
I'm an actor that's getting paid millions to pretend to be someone else for a bit, right?

947
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,720
And you want it to be perfect in a restaurant. You're not any cash converters

948
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:28,200
A thousand percent a minute mate, you know what I mean? Yeah, we'll do it again. What you want one more

949
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:34,220
Fuck it. We'll do Bob Wagner Bob Wagner who's who's been his first AD or second AD on six films

950
00:37:34,220 --> 00:37:36,500
Okay, he said about Fincher

951
00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:41,420
We're here to do work and we're here to do something special and we have the opportunity to do that

952
00:37:41,620 --> 00:37:47,940
If it's about the paycheck or if it's about the rat party if it's about the crew gift, you know what fuck off

953
00:37:48,100 --> 00:37:50,580
That's Fincher's approach and I agree with it

954
00:37:51,060 --> 00:37:56,500
That's incredible. I'd hold I've never I don't know why but I've never thought of it that way

955
00:37:56,500 --> 00:38:01,180
I've always thought of it been sort of like oh my god. It must be so hard having to do the same thing 15 times

956
00:38:01,180 --> 00:38:05,380
It's like it's your job. There's worse things right. It's your job. Yes

957
00:38:05,380 --> 00:38:10,800
They're a toilet cleaners out there. Hey should be getting paid more right because their job is literally cleaning up

958
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,540
You work human waste working in McDonald's how many double cheeseburgers do you make in a day?

959
00:38:14,540 --> 00:38:19,060
You don't get tonight Ian go. Oh, this is this beyond the pale. Yeah, this is ridiculous

960
00:38:19,060 --> 00:38:23,140
I've made 90 double cheeseburgers. Do you know how we're not on us repetitive? This is

961
00:38:23,340 --> 00:38:25,340
Yeah, welcome to work for the fucker

962
00:38:25,340 --> 00:38:32,860
He's so right he's so right I don't think he is an obsessive

963
00:38:32,860 --> 00:38:34,460
I think he's just

964
00:38:34,460 --> 00:38:39,100
Aware of the money that's being spent yeah, and he wants his actors to do it again and again and again

965
00:38:39,100 --> 00:38:43,420
So it's no longer feels like a performance. Yeah, they're bored of the line

966
00:38:43,580 --> 00:38:49,420
So they start delivering it like the person would not consciously. I love this. I actually love this

967
00:38:49,500 --> 00:38:52,300
It's given me a whole new view of it. Yeah, right

968
00:38:52,300 --> 00:38:57,180
And it's nothing but mad respect right now and I just I feel like I

969
00:38:58,460 --> 00:39:01,820
The counterpoint I get it right if you've got a really emotive scene

970
00:39:02,380 --> 00:39:08,460
Yeah, like how many times you're going to get an actor to cry I get that or like you mentioned it earlier the basement scene

971
00:39:09,020 --> 00:39:11,020
doing that a hundred times

972
00:39:11,180 --> 00:39:14,700
Or for three days I okay the basement scene though

973
00:39:15,420 --> 00:39:18,380
I think it needed to be done a few times because

974
00:39:18,380 --> 00:39:25,500
That I'm gonna get into it now. How so because this film that scene the basement scene it ruins the film for me

975
00:39:26,140 --> 00:39:28,140
Right, it ruins it. It ruins me

976
00:39:28,620 --> 00:39:30,620
It ruins me on a deeply

977
00:39:30,780 --> 00:39:36,780
Molecular level right my entire my entire person is changed in that scene right okay? You've got to tell me more

978
00:39:36,860 --> 00:39:38,620
It's for all the right reasons

979
00:39:38,620 --> 00:39:44,700
You mentioned it earlier right this entire film is direct to the point. It's fully objective right there is no

980
00:39:44,700 --> 00:39:50,300
There's no caring. There's no sort of like there's no feeling in it. No, and I love it and then all of a sudden

981
00:39:51,340 --> 00:39:55,900
All of a sudden out of nowhere you get a really subjective scene

982
00:39:56,460 --> 00:40:02,300
Benchard just goes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, you're feeling pretty safe. You're on board so far boom mirror up to you buddy

983
00:40:03,340 --> 00:40:09,020
Mirror up to you. Grace Smith is the is great. You've been rooting for grace Smith this entire time. Yeah, he's a nutter now

984
00:40:09,260 --> 00:40:12,460
Think he's doing all right. Yeah. Yeah, look at the position that he's got himself in mate

985
00:40:12,460 --> 00:40:14,700
He's in a potential murderous house

986
00:40:15,420 --> 00:40:19,820
With a basement in california. There's not many basements in california which is one of the clues

987
00:40:20,220 --> 00:40:24,140
Yeah, so for those that we didn't put it in the breakdown for those who haven't seen the film in a while

988
00:40:24,540 --> 00:40:25,740
I'm playing to see it

989
00:40:25,740 --> 00:40:30,620
That our main protagonist robert grace. He's played by jake jalen hall has been following the case on his own

990
00:40:31,100 --> 00:40:33,500
Strapping things together. There's a second suspect

991
00:40:33,660 --> 00:40:38,300
There is and he goes to speak to somebody who might have information about this second suspect

992
00:40:38,700 --> 00:40:41,180
And then it turns out all the evidence he has

993
00:40:41,180 --> 00:40:47,100
That points the finger at this second suspect is actually true of the man whose basement he's in

994
00:40:47,500 --> 00:40:49,500
And he starts to freak out

995
00:40:50,220 --> 00:40:52,700
But obviously from the perspective of him

996
00:40:53,340 --> 00:40:58,460
Terrifying from the perspective of the man who's invited him in for a cup of tea and is just answering questions

997
00:40:58,780 --> 00:41:03,580
And has now got a sweaty crack head in his basement. Yeah, it's insane. He's the weirdo

998
00:41:03,660 --> 00:41:06,780
But this is this is the bit that ruined me on a personal

999
00:41:06,780 --> 00:41:11,900
I because I was looking at it and I was like if if I can relate to anyone in this film

1000
00:41:12,220 --> 00:41:13,820
It's gray smith. Yeah

1001
00:41:13,820 --> 00:41:18,940
Right because I like to do stuff in my spare time and sometimes I run away with it. I get a bit obsessive about it

1002
00:41:18,940 --> 00:41:20,940
I end up in an odd situation

1003
00:41:21,020 --> 00:41:23,020
at ie

1004
00:41:23,420 --> 00:41:28,700
We're two and a half years into a podcast about movies and mental health. Yeah, it's a hobby that's ran away, right?

1005
00:41:28,940 --> 00:41:29,740
Right, right, right?

1006
00:41:29,740 --> 00:41:33,340
Except for my hobby doesn't lead me to a potential murderous basement

1007
00:41:33,340 --> 00:41:37,820
Right where I'm genuinely terrified because I'm like, oh my god, I would have done the exact same thing

1008
00:41:37,980 --> 00:41:42,620
Ben I would have made all of these decisions. I love that you've done the family friendly podcast analogy

1009
00:41:42,620 --> 00:41:44,620
But let me just ask you this

1010
00:41:44,620 --> 00:41:48,780
Little too spicy to carry on

1011
00:41:52,380 --> 00:41:57,180
I'm an edited episode of Patreon

1012
00:41:59,820 --> 00:42:03,900
You're right. It's the moment the mirror's held up. Look where you are now. Look where you got yourself

1013
00:42:04,300 --> 00:42:06,300
Dude because you wanted the answer to a riddle

1014
00:42:06,700 --> 00:42:12,780
Exactly and it hits me every time and I'm like I hate this because now we're no longer being sort of like

1015
00:42:12,780 --> 00:42:18,380
Oh, I wonder where this is going to go. You're like, oh, this is where I am. Yeah, I I have been here before

1016
00:42:18,620 --> 00:42:25,100
I hate it. Why why is he here? It's it's it's the most harrowing look in the mirror ever

1017
00:42:26,860 --> 00:42:32,540
Crucial to understanding this film for me or crucial to my understanding of the film

1018
00:42:32,540 --> 00:42:34,380
I won't be an arrogant prick about it

1019
00:42:34,380 --> 00:42:38,940
It's crucial to my understanding of the film because at the very start we said this isn't a

1020
00:42:38,940 --> 00:42:43,180
True crime podcast. This is a podcast about the film

1021
00:42:43,820 --> 00:42:45,820
Yeah, and I don't think zodiac

1022
00:42:46,700 --> 00:42:48,700
Is a true crime film

1023
00:42:48,860 --> 00:42:54,380
It's not it's a it's not about a serial killer for me. It's about information

1024
00:42:55,580 --> 00:42:56,540
Okay

1025
00:42:56,540 --> 00:43:00,540
There's a scene in this movie where the Anthony Edwards character

1026
00:43:01,580 --> 00:43:04,460
Is calling around all the police stations of the different

1027
00:43:04,460 --> 00:43:11,820
Jurisdictions that these crimes have happened. Yeah, and he's trying to get scraps of information that he didn't know

1028
00:43:12,380 --> 00:43:19,100
That everyone thought had been shared and it's an it's this sort of demonstration of just how fractured and disparate

1029
00:43:19,740 --> 00:43:21,740
the justice systems

1030
00:43:21,740 --> 00:43:23,740
handling of this cases

1031
00:43:24,540 --> 00:43:27,500
Yeah, where that's not true is the newsroom

1032
00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:35,020
The newsroom is this central hub where all this information comes in is all collated

1033
00:43:35,420 --> 00:43:39,100
And you've got a serial killer whose kill count is not that high

1034
00:43:39,660 --> 00:43:44,540
And whose crimes in the world of serial killing are not so shocking. Okay, right?

1035
00:43:44,540 --> 00:43:48,780
He's not making belts out of nipples. He's stabbing people and shooting people. Yeah

1036
00:43:49,180 --> 00:43:55,740
What makes zodiac as a serial killer fascinating is he's the first one to play with the media

1037
00:43:55,740 --> 00:44:04,220
To be aware of the power of information. Yeah for a film made in 2007 at the birth of the internet

1038
00:44:04,300 --> 00:44:11,500
Yeah, it's an incredibly relevant topic for a man in 2007 to look at a world that it's

1039
00:44:11,900 --> 00:44:16,380
Literally entering a period of human history. We call the information age

1040
00:44:17,180 --> 00:44:22,220
Yeah, and look back at his childhood and find an informational serial killer

1041
00:44:22,220 --> 00:44:29,740
And the handling of his case which would have been solved in a week if they'd had the internet

1042
00:44:30,300 --> 00:44:33,980
Oh, damn. This is this is insane because as we mentioned earlier

1043
00:44:34,860 --> 00:44:41,820
Chinese children put little magic rectangles in all of our pockets right with instant instant access to every video

1044
00:44:42,700 --> 00:44:47,180
Every bit of information that's ever existed in human history was in our cell phone towers

1045
00:44:47,180 --> 00:44:52,620
Right, dude. How quickly would this guy have been caught with little black rectangles?

1046
00:44:53,180 --> 00:44:58,620
Oh, but these guys were working with telephones and fax machines, but not everyone had fax machines

1047
00:44:59,100 --> 00:45:03,980
And paper files in different police stations all across the state

1048
00:45:05,020 --> 00:45:07,020
You know this just makes me think

1049
00:45:07,020 --> 00:45:10,780
The plight of the serial killer's just gotten harder and harder. Really has. You know what I mean?

1050
00:45:10,780 --> 00:45:13,980
Really has. It's funny that it's almost like we don't want it to happen

1051
00:45:13,980 --> 00:45:18,940
Yeah, but I mean the ones that are still dedicated to it nowadays. There's a lot of effort there

1052
00:45:18,940 --> 00:45:23,660
Do you know what I mean? Probably one of the hardest jobs in the world up there with with McDonald's

1053
00:45:24,380 --> 00:45:27,900
Service line worker, you know, I've it's not acting. It's my point

1054
00:45:29,020 --> 00:45:35,340
Okay. Yeah, that's cool. The reason I think the information thing is relevant and it comes back to why an incredible

1055
00:45:35,900 --> 00:45:38,860
Incredible development in the zodiac case and this is all we'll talk about

1056
00:45:38,860 --> 00:45:45,180
The main suspect in this film is Arthur Lee Allen. Yes, it is now he went about his life

1057
00:45:45,180 --> 00:45:50,940
He had girlfriends who had kids. Okay. He was like a stepfather parental figure to those kids

1058
00:45:51,820 --> 00:45:55,900
Those are the Lee Allen Arthur Lee Allen. Yeah, he had a life. He had girlfriends, you know, he had all this stuff

1059
00:45:56,780 --> 00:45:58,780
The kids that he helped raise

1060
00:45:59,340 --> 00:46:07,740
Yeah, go and see this film in 2007 long after Arthur Lee Allen's death, right and things that had always confused them about his behavior

1061
00:46:07,740 --> 00:46:14,300
Why did we go there? Why did he drive us there? What happened to this item of clothing that we made for him?

1062
00:46:14,620 --> 00:46:17,980
Right suddenly make an awful lot of sense. Oh

1063
00:46:18,860 --> 00:46:22,700
A three-part documentary on Netflix called this is the zodiac speaking

1064
00:46:22,860 --> 00:46:29,580
Which if you think this film piles on a bunch of circumstantial but not definitive evidence against Arthur Lee Allen

1065
00:46:30,220 --> 00:46:33,980
Right, there's about eight times as much more evidence from them

1066
00:46:33,980 --> 00:46:41,260
Oh about we moved to this part of the country and then a coded letter

1067
00:46:41,900 --> 00:46:44,860
Containing one of our names was sent from that location

1068
00:46:45,660 --> 00:46:48,460
That they never knew if it was a real zodiac letter or not

1069
00:46:48,460 --> 00:46:54,220
But why would it have my name from my postcode written in the same handwriting?

1070
00:46:55,260 --> 00:47:00,220
They only came forward and started putting the pieces together and going through their mum's old stuff

1071
00:47:00,220 --> 00:47:08,220
Which has letters from him that are super incriminating. Oh my god because they went to see David Fincher's film and David Fincher

1072
00:47:08,940 --> 00:47:14,300
Was faithful to the events of the case. That's actually insane. He said this film is like

1073
00:47:14,780 --> 00:47:21,500
Genuinely helped shed a lot more light on who is almost without doubt now proven to be the zodiac killer

1074
00:47:22,220 --> 00:47:27,020
That is actually insane. Yeah, mr. David Fincher

1075
00:47:27,020 --> 00:47:29,020
Uh

1076
00:47:29,020 --> 00:47:33,980
Robert graysmith said mr. Fincher's team found evidence that the investigators had missed

1077
00:47:34,380 --> 00:47:42,380
He outdid the police said Robert graysmith my hats off to him. That's actually dude ridiculous. Yeah, genuinely ridiculous

1078
00:47:42,860 --> 00:47:48,060
I love this man. Right more than I can put into words. I love this man. Do you want to hear some sad news?

1079
00:47:48,700 --> 00:47:50,700
Though but I guess yeah

1080
00:47:50,780 --> 00:47:54,860
This film cost 65 million like we said in the intro. Yeah

1081
00:47:54,860 --> 00:47:59,580
Yeah, I don't know how much it made I'm gonna okay. So looking at Fincher's past

1082
00:48:00,220 --> 00:48:04,540
Hundreds hundreds and hundreds hundreds and hundreds of millions. I'm gonna I'm gonna put

1083
00:48:05,340 --> 00:48:07,340
I'm gonna put a safe

1084
00:48:07,420 --> 00:48:09,260
semi-educated guess

1085
00:48:09,260 --> 00:48:11,260
200 million in the u.s

1086
00:48:12,220 --> 00:48:14,220
Yeah, it only made

1087
00:48:14,300 --> 00:48:16,060
30 million

1088
00:48:16,060 --> 00:48:18,060
Wide it made 84

1089
00:48:18,540 --> 00:48:20,700
Unacceptable least profitable movie

1090
00:48:20,700 --> 00:48:28,780
Get in the bin states it made four million dollars less in America than fight club did his big flop

1091
00:48:29,420 --> 00:48:36,860
Jesus Christ, it was out. It was out grossed by wild hogs with John Travolta and Martin Lawrence

1092
00:48:37,820 --> 00:48:39,820
I remember seeing that this is a man

1093
00:48:41,660 --> 00:48:46,060
It's a terrible film. Yeah, it's so bad. I think I saw it twice. Yeah

1094
00:48:46,780 --> 00:48:49,260
Yeah, yeah, yeah made more money than this film

1095
00:48:49,260 --> 00:48:51,260
Which helps later on

1096
00:48:52,060 --> 00:48:55,420
Literally solve or for all intents and purposes

1097
00:48:56,620 --> 00:49:03,820
Completely remove any doubt that Arthur Lee Allen was the zodiac killer. I contributed twice to wild hugs and wants to zodiac

1098
00:49:04,540 --> 00:49:10,460
Possibly I don't fully remember. Yeah. Oh god. I feel like an awful person but of the

1099
00:49:10,460 --> 00:49:20,940
2007 critics lists of top 10 films. Yeah, it missed only two of them. Okay. It's a huge huge critical success

1100
00:49:21,580 --> 00:49:27,020
Good, but financially an absolute nightmare. Yeah, Jesus

1101
00:49:27,820 --> 00:49:31,100
Yeah, that's really upsetting. It's bad, isn't it? It's bad. I don't like that at all

1102
00:49:31,820 --> 00:49:33,820
What are you gonna rate?

1103
00:49:33,820 --> 00:49:35,820
zodiac ben okay, so

1104
00:49:35,820 --> 00:49:41,340
I've got two ratings for this one. You keep doing this you keep doing this and it's not the system

1105
00:49:41,500 --> 00:49:46,940
I know but it's what's your favorite film. I've got two favorite films. Yeah, I don't question is it? I've got hundreds

1106
00:49:47,020 --> 00:49:48,620
Yeah, I've got hundreds

1107
00:49:48,620 --> 00:49:52,700
So there's two ratings for this one and the only reason I'm doing it this way is because

1108
00:49:53,340 --> 00:49:55,340
There's no other way to do it essentially

1109
00:49:55,340 --> 00:49:59,100
Uh, the on the first watch through yeah on your first time watching this film

1110
00:49:59,980 --> 00:50:02,540
It's something that I've never experienced before

1111
00:50:02,540 --> 00:50:07,980
Yeah, it feels like a documentary but it obviously is not a documentary but the tension

1112
00:50:08,540 --> 00:50:11,020
the attention to detail and just the

1113
00:50:11,580 --> 00:50:16,780
Magnificent storytelling. Yeah visual and obviously like written through the dialogue and all this stuff

1114
00:50:17,580 --> 00:50:18,300
fat 10

1115
00:50:18,300 --> 00:50:23,740
Yeah fat 10 all the way through first watch through fat 10 end of like there's no other answer for it because it's mindblowing

1116
00:50:24,140 --> 00:50:29,100
It's 2007 by the way. We've been spoiled with films like this since then we really 2007

1117
00:50:29,100 --> 00:50:34,940
This is mind blowing. It's really difficult to remember how ahead of their time David Fincher's films looked

1118
00:50:35,500 --> 00:50:36,620
This is it

1119
00:50:36,620 --> 00:50:41,820
This is it you watch zodiac now and you're like this is incredible and there are so many people trying to emulate it right now

1120
00:50:41,820 --> 00:50:43,180
It's unreal

1121
00:50:43,180 --> 00:50:46,780
But so it's a fat 10 on the first watch through my next rating

1122
00:50:47,420 --> 00:50:53,580
Is the rewatch ability because like I said earlier in the episode it doesn't matter how many times I watch this film

1123
00:50:54,220 --> 00:50:58,220
I'm constantly on the edge of my seat. I know where it's going. I know the twists and turns

1124
00:50:58,220 --> 00:51:03,500
I know the basement scene is around the corner. I know I'm going to have to confront some sort of demon when that mirror is held up at me

1125
00:51:05,020 --> 00:51:07,020
Fat 10

1126
00:51:09,340 --> 00:51:15,340
It's a two fat tenor it's two fat tens two fat ladies. Are you two fat tenors? That's what it is. It has to be

1127
00:51:15,500 --> 00:51:17,500
Okay, uh, okay. I mean

1128
00:51:18,220 --> 00:51:20,220
Yeah, I

1129
00:51:20,940 --> 00:51:22,700
What are you rating it?

1130
00:51:22,700 --> 00:51:24,700
Oh, I don't know mate. Look

1131
00:51:24,780 --> 00:51:26,780
Okay, I'm going to do two ratings as well

1132
00:51:26,780 --> 00:51:30,700
God you always do this. I know how the system works. No, it's not it's not

1133
00:51:30,780 --> 00:51:32,780
But I'm having to match your energy aren't I?

1134
00:51:34,780 --> 00:51:36,780
Welcome down in the filth with you

1135
00:51:37,820 --> 00:51:39,820
For me, it's a fat 10. It's

1136
00:51:40,300 --> 00:51:44,060
Right, it's everything I love about the technical side of filmmaking

1137
00:51:45,020 --> 00:51:48,780
Done for the right reasons. There's no showboating like there is in panic room

1138
00:51:49,180 --> 00:51:53,260
And panic room has reasons to be that is because if there wasn't the technical showboating

1139
00:51:53,260 --> 00:51:59,740
It wouldn't be a film that I'd have any interest in watching. All right. Yeah, I can see that the technical showboating in this is

1140
00:52:00,300 --> 00:52:03,340
purely to serve the artistic ends of the film

1141
00:52:03,900 --> 00:52:07,100
There's not a single thing that's done that doesn't have a reason for it

1142
00:52:07,340 --> 00:52:11,500
There's no reason that jody fosters face has to rotate 90 degrees in panic room

1143
00:52:11,900 --> 00:52:14,220
Fincher just had a new clamp and was like, let's give that

1144
00:52:15,740 --> 00:52:20,140
That looks mint. How much does that cost to rent a day five grand get it on the truck boy

1145
00:52:20,140 --> 00:52:27,100
Get it in me right get it on there. This one is much more restrained. It's a beautiful looking film. It's it's a wonderful film

1146
00:52:27,500 --> 00:52:30,220
It's a fat 10 for me. My second rating

1147
00:52:30,860 --> 00:52:35,260
Is how what how strongly I could recommend it to someone else?

1148
00:52:37,100 --> 00:52:41,740
Now my sister is much younger than me. She's 18. She's used to a much faster pace of movie

1149
00:52:42,380 --> 00:52:46,380
Yeah, I watched a lot of films with people that I'm like, it's great, isn't it?

1150
00:52:46,380 --> 00:52:48,940
And then about an hour in they're like, oh, it's a bit long this isn't it?

1151
00:52:48,940 --> 00:52:51,900
I'm like, we're on hour one of three

1152
00:52:53,180 --> 00:52:55,500
That rating has to be lower because it is

1153
00:52:56,380 --> 00:52:59,020
For some people going to be a bit of an endurance test

1154
00:52:59,660 --> 00:53:03,660
Right, right, right. Fundamentally, it's a film about the minute details

1155
00:53:04,220 --> 00:53:06,620
Of how they didn't catch a serial killer

1156
00:53:07,660 --> 00:53:14,140
That is exactly what the film is. So yeah, there's no like great big peak moment of tension that then leads to a resolution

1157
00:53:14,140 --> 00:53:20,540
Yeah, it's a slow petering out of the characters on screen being able to continue to give a fuck

1158
00:53:21,260 --> 00:53:22,780
Yeah, okay. And so

1159
00:53:23,820 --> 00:53:29,660
Am I recommend it to somebody who perhaps doesn't watch as many films as we do? Yes, it's an eight

1160
00:53:30,700 --> 00:53:34,380
Okay, right. All right. It's a great film, but I can see people going

1161
00:53:35,340 --> 00:53:40,780
No, not for me. Not for me. Well, I mean this film got a solid 38 out of 10 from us. You know what I mean?

1162
00:53:40,780 --> 00:53:44,700
So that's that's pretty still pretty good. It's pretty good. It's still pretty good. Yeah

1163
00:53:45,340 --> 00:53:50,780
We've got we've got a pretty hefty comment corner this week, Ben. I'm gonna say we

1164
00:53:51,260 --> 00:53:53,820
Pineapple real quick. Let's pineapple this

1165
00:53:53,820 --> 00:54:11,820
Sports commentator

1166
00:54:14,380 --> 00:54:21,500
But not any sport I'm talking like I'm talking like the offshoot sports. I'm talking cricket darts talking darts

1167
00:54:21,500 --> 00:54:23,500
Darts commentator

1168
00:54:25,820 --> 00:54:32,140
180 oh, but he missed he missed the bulls. I we have another one from Christina

1169
00:54:32,140 --> 00:54:38,380
But I want to keep it to next week. Okay, uh, Christina apologies, but we will read it. It is happening

1170
00:54:38,780 --> 00:54:46,220
We will but that is sadly all the time we have for this week. It is guys. Thank you so much for hanging out with us

1171
00:54:46,220 --> 00:54:52,380
It has been an absolute joy as always you have made our way way better this week. I honestly mate

1172
00:54:52,860 --> 00:54:55,180
There have been it's just been nice knowing

1173
00:54:55,820 --> 00:55:00,540
Like we're we're over time technically, but we're not way over time, but we're not

1174
00:55:01,100 --> 00:55:05,260
And men how free and is this I don't previously I was like

1175
00:55:06,140 --> 00:55:11,740
I had a new listener sat on my shoulder going. This isn't about the film. Why do I care about you?

1176
00:55:11,900 --> 00:55:14,140
Or why do I care about this person? Let's wrap it up

1177
00:55:14,140 --> 00:55:18,940
Yeah, and now I'm just I'm hanging with my mate. This is great. Honestly, this is great.

1178
00:55:19,660 --> 00:55:24,540
Thank you so much for this. Thank you man. And then you listeners and like yeah, if you're hearing this

1179
00:55:24,860 --> 00:55:27,900
We haven't launched it yet. We're this is us from the past

1180
00:55:28,700 --> 00:55:29,900
So

1181
00:55:29,900 --> 00:55:31,900
We're launching it in about three hours. Yeah

1182
00:55:32,540 --> 00:55:34,540
Uh, so hello

1183
00:55:34,780 --> 00:55:40,220
And we love you and we hope there's more than 10 of you. Otherwise I'm gonna be

1184
00:55:41,180 --> 00:55:43,180
Yeah, try to make it look like a work accident

1185
00:55:43,180 --> 00:55:46,220
Yeah, yeah, that's pretty easy as a chef. You know what I mean?

1186
00:55:47,100 --> 00:55:54,540
There's whisks just drowning the friars. There's quiches. Oh, that's a graphic one. I was going with fun ways. All right, but fuck it. Yeah, there's knives

1187
00:55:58,380 --> 00:56:04,620
Thank you so much for hanging out with us. We are forever grateful. We will be back next week with gladiator

1188
00:56:04,620 --> 00:56:13,100
Uh, I'm so excited Ben. Same me too, mate. One of my all-time favorite films. But that's it. This is us. This is us done

1189
00:56:13,580 --> 00:56:18,060
Let's let's wrap it up. We solved the case. Sodiak's done. We solved the case

1190
00:56:18,300 --> 00:56:22,460
We solved it. All this left to do is thank you for spending an hour of your week with us

1191
00:56:22,780 --> 00:56:27,900
Especially at the start of the week, you know, it's a Monday. Yeah, so Ben's gonna wrap up the thoughts themes and feelings

1192
00:56:27,900 --> 00:56:34,220
Of this I've got this down this is film into a little Monday motivational pep talk

1193
00:56:34,540 --> 00:56:38,220
Well, I just do what society always tells you to do and tell you to

1194
00:56:39,100 --> 00:56:41,100
consume

1195
00:56:41,180 --> 00:56:45,420
Obsess just just obsess over anything and everything because a

1196
00:56:45,980 --> 00:56:48,780
Jake Gyllenhaal is obsessed as shit in this film b

1197
00:56:49,180 --> 00:56:52,940
He's incredibly good looking does wonders for the skin being mad obsessed

1198
00:56:52,940 --> 00:56:58,700
If you've ever seen if you've ever seen a chronic masturbator with bad skin. No, I haven't I haven't