Hello everyone and welcome to the Every Movie Ever podcast. My name is Ben Groves.
My name is Rob Macfarlane and welcome to the show, a movie podcast slash mental health
check-in for two broken brain best friends talking around their problems, but not about
their problems whilst laughing at movies. But given that this is a thinly veiled mental
health check-in, Ben, before I get to what we're doing, how are you doing buddy? Choking
to death?
I'm ill. I'm ill. I don't think I'm ill.
Okay.
I might be ill.
You just malnourished.
I'm just really tired.
You're just living on a diet of pure creatine.
I just created a protein yoghurt. I just need a cuddle.
Are you on the pomegranate and blueberry yoghurt from Lidl?
Yeah.
They're delicious.
No, they're Aldi though. They're Aldi.
Yeah. Incredible. How are you buddy?
Similarly, we get different migraines. You get a headache with visual disturbances and
this. I get like, I can't move and I vomit and lights cause me to cry.
You get the pussy ones. I get the really manly Sigma ones. You know what I mean?
You get the fight club ones.
I get the fight club ones. You get the Magnolia ones. That's where we're at.
I was in bed for two days and I couldn't turn up to work. Then I basically haven't been
able to do the pod. I haven't been able to do socials. I haven't been able to do my job.
The entire week is ruined because I missed two days. On the theme of being ruined, what
are we doing this weekend?
That's a horrible transition. Going to be challenging that one very, very shortly. Come
on, get up, get happy. We're doing Joker. Folly.
Yeah. And the error of the second. That's what that means.
No, it means fun of the two. Rob, be more cultured. The brand spanking new sequel to
Todd Phillips is 2019 billion dollar hit Joker.
Yes. And given that this is about a film that's new out, we are assuming that you are coming
to us having seen the film.
I'm not.
This is a post cinema or you've heard it's bad and you want to know why it's bad without
spending 20 quid plus at the cinema.
Yes. That's exactly what people are doing because I've seen the numbers, mate. No one's
seen it.
Right. Okay. So this is a spoiler written episode and we've got a lot to go through.
We're going to get into what is going on with Joker 2. Why all the hate?
Does this film punish fans of Joker 1?
Does this film punish everyone?
Sometimes. Is this film intentionally bad?
And most importantly, is this the true Joker's origin story?
Oh, that sounds like Ben's got a theory.
Ben has got a theory and I've not heard it yet and I'm terrified.
You should be.
So this was released in 2024 to a flock of hate. Is that the 80s band? Yes. With the
long haircuts.
And I ran from Follardew.
This was an absolute box office bomb.
It's dreadful, mate.
This is the worst rated superhero movie ever. You know, Madame Webb got a cinema score.
C plus.
Yeah.
This got D.
D for dick in good time. Do you know what I mean?
They spent 200 mil on this film.
Yep. And then an extra hundred mil on marketing.
Mate, the expenditures of the cast, the film, the marketing to break even on this film,
they have to, they have to make 450 million. That's to break even. They have to make that.
They're not going to, are they?
Do you want to know what it did make?
Well, it's been out a week. I reckon, I reckon at least I'm going to realistically for my
expectations. If I hadn't known, if I hadn't seen the film and if I hadn't seen the reaction,
I would have expected this to have already made somewhere in the region of 150 mil.
Okay. Well that, well, well that was a mad voice crack. Well, well that, uh, my fight
club Sigma boy.
Nailed it. Look at my, look at my fucking bicep, mate.
Oh, Swirjar.
Swirjar. Five swears. They get to send pictures of our phobias, be they owls or crabs to any
of our social media platforms.
Yeah.
We've got four left, mate.
Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. Well, stick around to the end of the episode. We're going
to be getting into the figures and how much it's made in its first week. We understand
that if you're listening to this in the future, however many years down the line, this next
part will be meaningless, but please still stick around to the end because you know,
why not? It's going to be, we got, we got a lot of fun. We got a lot of fun. Now, uh,
this is a huge deal at the moment. This was one of the most successful films of recent
years. This is one of the most watched films on letterbox.com as of recording with, with
millions and millions of users logging that their love for the original film. And we wanted
to take a look at the sequel that no one wanted. Cause no one, no one went, Oh wow. I can't
wait to see where that story goes. Everyone went, that was plenty. Thank you. That was
everything I wanted tied up in a bow. Lovely. What a lovely little standalone story. I'm
in a different camp to those people because I saw that and was like, yeah, but, but realistically
what would happen after. And you know what, mate? Fuck all. I'm going to get exactly
that's two, two Rob, two. I hate this sweater. Well, that's the film we got. We got a film.
We got a film documenting exactly that. Uh, now I have to address the, the elephant in
the room, Ben. Yep. Come on. Joker twos a musical and a lot of our discord users and,
uh, regular listeners have been demanding that this episode also be a musical. They
have, I think it should be. I think we should do every point to, uh, in the form of a 1930s
rap. Uh, and I'm thinking maybe we turn it into some sort of rap. Is that like 1800s
techno? Yes. It's just washboards and symbols. Um, that's my favorite band. So what I'm thinking
that we do is, is we turn it into some sort of rap battle. We've done rap, mate. We completed
it. Big tick. Yeah. Yeah. But this is what I've done. No, what I've done. I've got,
I've got this covered cause we can't do the whole episode. It would be like the film,
incredibly grating and cut the pacing of the film down to a crawl. So if we just concentrate
into the breakdown, just the break down, nothing else, just the breakdown. Fine. All right.
I mean, I'll play the, I'll play the jingle and we'll, we'll see where we are after that.
Shall we? Yeah, let's go. Let's go.
All right. So this is what we're doing then. Yeah. Yep. All right. So, well, I mean, we
said in the episode we would and we pre-recorded it. So
that's like Arthur's stuck in the Arkham now. I'm so stuck now waiting for a trial. Tick
tock feeling low somehow. Buddy meets a girl named Lee and she's got a twisted past just
like me. That's life. In a courtroom, things get tough with a story that feels disjointed
and rough, but he won't let it, let it bring him down as chaos reigns in Gotham town. I've
been a patient, a prisoner, a killer, a clown, a pawn and a king. I've been up and down,
lost in this town, but I know one thing. Each time I find myself caught up in the chase,
I fight my way back and face what I've embraced. That's life. He thought he'd win, but critics
reign with pacing flaws and a story that's plain, but he won't let it, let it bring him
down. Cause the joker's life will echo round. I've been so patient to say this, to give
you the basics, but this film got me good through ups and downs with our favorite clown
and I understood. Each time he found himself punched right in the face, I saw my past self
put right in his place. That's Ben, not Rob. This film was all his darkest fears. It fucking
was buddy. In a film that left Rob unable to cheer, but we won't let it, let it bring
us down. Cause we got musical, we got musical, for our breakdown. For our fucking breakdown.
Why did we do this? We might be smooth brained. Oh, that was, um, that was a lot. That was
fun. That was exactly what I needed to be. That's terrifying. That was terrifying. And
I can't believe we're putting that out. It's on the internet mate. It's out there forever.
If we ever get canceled, that will live on in for forever. You know what I mean? When
we're 90, when you, when you're on your death bed and you're like, Ben, was I a good boy?
I'll be like, yeah. And then I'm just going to play that on repeat. That's what I say
on my death bed. Was I a good boy? I don't know. I kind of look at me and you as like,
you're my best pet dog. Second to Roxy and I'm your best pet dog ever. I thoroughly dislike
a firstly, that's some shocking Lola erasure. My dog Lola would be Lola's great. Lola's
incredible. But I'm just saying that if me and Lola were to fight, I wouldn't fight Lola.
She's too. Yeah, you're right. I'm second to Lola. Of course I am. Right. I've got a
question for you, Ben. Go on. Why all the hate for this film? I can tell you at length,
but what do you think? Right. Okay. So people are up in arms right now. Right. Yeah. The
reviews are shocking. It is receiving a tsunami of hate. I cannot for the life of me understand
where it's all coming from because you know, no, I genuinely, right. I read all the, before
seeing the film, I read all the reviews. I was like, Oh God, it's horrible. It's horrible.
I went into the cinema, my expectations on the floor. Yeah. Right. And I know for a fact
that I've seen this film more than most people who are fucking raving about it. Right. Right.
Yeah. Because I've seen the box office figures, Rob. No one's seen this. They'd look at this
twice. They'd look so much different if people were watching this film, it would look a lot
different. I went in with my expectations on the floor and I came out pleasantly surprised
because I was like, it never got as bad as I, as I was expecting it to based on what
I was reading. And that was a positive for me. I was like, Oh, okay. Pleasantly surprised.
Well, let me just quickly read a review that I found on Google from a Joker fan who perhaps
came to the film a little bit more literally. Hit me. Hit me. This was a 0.5 out of a hundred
star rating movie, complete waste of time. The director doesn't even understand his own
movie. He neutered the Joker in his second movie because Todd Phillips is an elite. What?
He then goes on to talk about Joker one. It does well because everyone can relate to the
average guy. Finally not putting up with BS from the elite. Oh, right. Shut up. As for
the second film, it was bad. Every time Gaga opens her mouth, the movie goes downhill and
I like Gaga and her works, but she's literally the cue for when the movie starts to go downhill.
Every other scene. Also, they made Joker look dumb as fuck and so weak, IE Joker randomly
bangs Gaga for like five seconds and then comes weak and shameful to the character. Now here's
my favourite bit and I'll end it here. Oh my God. In a true Batman Joker setting film,
there's no random sex scenes. Second off, Joker is a stud. He doesn't need sex. This
is written by a person who has held two doors open today and not gotten one hand job and
he is furious about it. I love the idea that he was like that guy's a stud. Oh my God.
That's actually made my skin crawl. What are you talking about? Right. This is my main
point here, Rob. This is my main point. I think this is terrible because this is a brutal
punishment of Joker and to an extent his fandom are taking it personally. Right. Yeah. And
as we discussed in our Joker episode, famously misinterpreted by very, very many people.
Yeah, I agree. I agree. Thank you. I think fans of the Joker far and wide are left with
bitter tastes in their mouths. Right. Yeah. Folly a Jew has left some weird residue. So
weird French undertones to their favourite character and they don't like it. I mean,
even Rolling Stone called it a fuck you to the fans and it's like, I don't understand
where this is coming from because the fans of the fans of Joker that are up in arms about
it misinterpreted Joker. So now we're catering to mental people that are like, excuse me.
I went to a swimming bath and didn't get one hand job. I am a stud. Okay. All right. I
hope this gets on the brakes for a second there. Right. Because I think lots of people
have said that this movie is punishing the fans by sure. Punishing the fans that had
mistaken Joker as an idol. Right. Okay. I've heard this too. I've got stuff. I've got no.
I've got no problem with it doing that. I think that's a very correct thing to do. Yeah.
But I think it's, it's, it's a little more nuanced than that. Okay. It's asking you to
remember that Joker isn't a superhero, right? This isn't Mark Hamill's Joker or Jack Nicholson's
Joker. No, this is Arthur Fleck. Who's a, he's not the Messiah. He's a very, very unwell
boy. He's a very unwell man. I think the first film and, and the sequel, both try and make
the point that you might love the idea of pain making you strong. And I think a lot
of people misinterpreted that first film as he goes through all that pain and it makes
him strong and he becomes a victimizer. He decides he's, and that's, that's a thing to
be celebrated. It is not. Well, this is the thing. It is not. It's nice to imagine a world
where pain makes you strong, but it doesn't. It may, what makes you strong is the work
you do after the pain. Yes. Right. You're otherwise pain would be a good thing. Exactly.
Pain gives you nothing and hurting people teaches them nothing worthwhile. Exactly.
Arthur Fleck is not some genius. He's a man who's been hurt again and again and again.
He's got no healthy support network. And then Harley and Gotham fall in love with a vengeful
victim who's doomed to die. Yes. Not a lonely man who has, who has a future. Exactly. Right.
But this is the thing. All of that is great. Yeah. All of that is great. It's just executed
terribly. And I think it'd be a shame to wrap up the negative fan reaction for the people
who misinterpreted the film and go, Oh, Joker's not a stud in this one. Obviously they're
mentals and Todd Phillips is correct to try and make a film that punishes those fans.
I would be well up for it. I think that that is what happened though. It's just the film.
It's a dog shit film, Ben. Three. Three. But this is the thing. It's awful. And it's not
because of anything that happens in the film. It's the execution. It's the pacing. Right.
It's everything about that is it's not a good film to do that with. And it's not because
of the tone or the intent or this, that or the other. It's everything else. I hear you
wholeheartedly, right? I hear you. I understand you. I can see exactly where you're coming
from. I think to relate the fan boy reaction. Yeah. Sure. Critical reaction together. Sure.
Is a flaw. The fan boys are annoyed for stupid reasons. Different reasons. Fair enough. Yeah.
And they should be. And the critics are annoyed because of the filmmaking choices, which is
fine. And they're both fine. They're both correct. And if that's how you feel about
this film, you are correct. There is no wrong or right choices here. I'm going to have to
disagree personally though. Okay. I think this film went down a road that I didn't necessarily
want to follow, but I had to. Right. Right. It's a gritty grueling. It's hard to watch
in places. So sometimes for the right reason, sometimes for the wrong. Right. I enjoyed
both of those reasons. It's a portrayal of an accidental idol, Arthur Fleck and how he
was thrown into fame that he didn't ask for and he didn't deserve. And it's, it's the
culmination of his crimes catching up to him. Right? Now we see in Joker two that the system
has failed him time and time again. Now the justice system is failing him. Yep. The correctional
services are failing him because Brendan Gleeson appears to be all sort of like cheeky boy,
like, Hey, he's evil as anything. And he is sinister as anything in this film. It's incredible.
I love that Brendan Gleeson's performance in this is faultless. It always is Brendan
Gleeson. The man can do no professional wrong. He literally can do no professional wrong.
It's incredible. The thing that I love about this film more than anything is we're in,
we're inside Arthur's head. Arthur is fully in the driving seat in this one. Right. Yes.
And I, I feel like with the musical aspect and stuff like this, what you've just said,
pain doesn't make you strong. It's what you do after that makes you strong. Right. I will
1000% agree with you because it's how you process it, how you learn from your mistakes
and how you, how you better yourself going forward. That's the most important thing here.
You and I both know people who something bad happens to them and they just sit there in
it and go, well, that's me done us 10 years ago, mate. Yeah, exactly. With crippling cocaine
habits. Why aren't you moving on with your life? Because our bad thing happened. Exactly.
And it's like, cool. Well, no one's coming to pick you up. What are you going to do about
it? Yeah. I can't. And it's fine to be there for a bit. Do you know what I mean? Everyone
is there at some point in the time and that's fine. But it's, it's, it's getting up and
dusting yourself off. Arthur Fleck does not do that. Yeah. Arthur Fleck lashes out. No,
he doesn't look, he doesn't look inward. He lashes out and he takes out on the world and
he must be everyone else. That's wrong. Everyone else is wrong. The finger is always pointed
outwards. It's never like held up to a mirror. Now the musical aspect of this film is when
we see Arthur is in a stressful situation, it's a very dramatic moment and the dramatic
moment seems to be undermined by a musical number, right? And for the first once or twice
that this happened, I was like, Oh, it kind of, you know, it takes away the seriousness
that he sort of, you know, deviates away from the seriousness of the drama that's happening
around him. And there is one moment in this film where there is a very, there's a very
intense dramatic moment with no musical number coming in. And it is the moment when Arthur
cannot escape that moment right there. He has to be present. He has to be focal to that
point happening. And that hit me like a ton of bricks without the music. Because I'd gotten
so used to go in, you know, it's just going to deviate away from it. And then when it
didn't, I was like, Oh, right. Oh, right. Oh, okay. And in my mind, something clicked
and I was like, the musicals and the musical numbers is Arthur drifting into a little fantasy
world. Yes, it is. Yeah. To not be present in these horrible moments that he now has
to deal with because he's on trial for five murders with the guilt of a sixth on his mind.
And I'm like, Oh my God, I love this stuff. I found that the music in a musical usually
performs the task of expressing. And I get that this was trying to be a subversion before
you button, right? No, no, that's fine. What Tom Phillips was trying to subvert was the
musical language where the song and the fantastical performance that you see is a depiction of
the emotional state of the character. Yes. Gorgeous. Except it doesn't happen in this
film because Arthur Fleck and Harley Quinn both sing in their characters untrained voices.
Yeah. So we've kept the reality of the situation in their flight of fantasy. Yes. Right. Yes.
We now have an unpleasant to listen to vocal. Yeah. Over a song that very rarely relates
to the narrative in a way that's emotionally connecting. Yes. I'd say the only time that
the song choice emotionally connects with what's happening is when Arthur sings the,
if you go away, uh, Jacques Brel's song to Harley down the phone. Yeah. Every other time
what happened is in a film that's already slow, a film in which the character already
has no agency whatsoever, makes no choices for himself, is purely reactive the entire
time. And in a film with arguably three locations. Yes. We're then stopping that absolute smorgasbord
of nothing happening to have even less happen. Okay. In a flight of fantasy where no one
sings with fantasy voices and no incredible staging happens. So you have this sort of
funeral march of dull interrupted with dull. Yes. And I, I am aware that it's, okay. Oh,
it's gritty and it's aversive, but it's not, it's not engaging. It's okay. I, I, again,
I'll agree with you. You can be as, you can be as thematically right as you like. I agree.
But I'm not, I'm not gripped. It's that's fine. I was very gripped by this. I like the
fact that it's not great voices. I like the fact that they keep their reality voices because
it's, it's almost like a commentary on Arthur on how he being able to imagine himself as
more capable as being anything more than what he already is. And that is the most heartbreaking
thing. And when you really sit and think about it, that didn't hit me at first. Do you want
to know when it did hit me? Right. In the credits, in the credits, I was in tears, right?
There is, I don't know if you stuck around for the credits, but there is a, it's like,
it rolls for a bit and then it goes dead silent and it's Joaquin Phoenix covering Daniel
Johnston's true love will find you in the end. Oh, okay. I didn't stick around. I wanted
to go and leave as quickly as possible so I could watch my own urine flow down the toilet
cause it would be more engaging. That's fine. I stuck around for some credits. He did Daniel
Johnston, true love will find you in the end. And it was the most gorgeous moment in a cinema
ever. Me and my friend Amber were sitting there, we were chatting about the film and
I was like, was it as bad as you thought it was going to be? She was like, no, I've read
so many reviews that were like, this is the worst film in existence ever. It's not, it's
not. I also left the cinema going that wasn't as bad as everyone says it is. I know, but
the thing with Daniel Johnston cover is it's not his bad singing voice. It's his gorgeous,
gorgeous singing voice. Cause he did walk the line with as Johnny Cash and he nailed
it. Yes. But this is one of the most cripplingly beautiful songs that exists. And for anyone
that knows me knows that my relationship with Daniel Johnston is that, toxic AF. I love
that man beyond belief, right? I listen to him daily. I full on obsessed that one song
when I saw him live, he played it. I was in bits for about a week and a half after I couldn't
fully function. And then to hear it at the end of this film, I was like, Oh my God, Oh
my God. And then it started hitting me bit by bit. Do you think, do you think Todd Phillips
legitimately made this to try and dissuade the wrong type of fan from liking his film?
I've got the answer and I know it's the answer because it's from Todd Phillips, right? This
is from an interview that Todd Phillips did with IGN. IGN asked Todd Phillips, is this
a response to toxic fandom? Bear with me. Cause this is, it's a little bit long, but
it's, it nails it on the head and it's essentially like a done, done point after this. Right?
Okay. Nice. Right. So Phillips said not so much that to be honest with you, but one of
the things that we always thought about the first movie or one of the things I definitely
said enough in defending the first movie when it needed to be defended because people said
it was irresponsible in its use of violence. And I, I always saw it quite literally the
opposite. I thought it was responsible because it was showing the actual real world effects
of violence. It wasn't glamorizing gun use in my mind. It was actually showing, Oh my
God, this is brutal. And I think the reality of it maybe is what turned people off with
the people that were turned off. Right. One of the things we tried to continue with here
is that same idea is the same idea is to me, a really important scene in the movie is when
he's cross-examining the little guy, Gary, why? Because it's been showing you the real
world effects of a trauma on a person who witnessed it. Right. That is a great scene.
That's the best scene in the film. It is heartbreaking. Uh, even beyond just witnessing something
horrible, what does that do to you? Right. You know what I mean? It's two or three years
later in the movie and Gary still says he can't sleep and he's, and he still wasn't
able to go back to work. These effects of violence was something we really wanted to
kind of, at least that scene address some part of, but not so much toxic fandom, honestly,
but that is a good idea. And the interview goes on with Todd Phillips and Joaquin Phoenix
and Joaquin Phoenix says, I don't like it when filmmakers set out with a point to make
when they guide your opinion of a film by saying, this is categorically what this film
is saying. He loves it when you can gather information from a film and you interpret
it. Exactly what Joker one was. It was exactly, it was a smorgasbord of stuff that you could
draw what you wanted from. Yeah. And I think this one is a broader spectrum on a smaller
stage. Yeah. The smaller stage is the fallout from the first film. What happens to an infamous
serial killer who is now an accidental icon for all of the disenfranchised people in a
city ravished with poverty. Yeah. And it's a courtroom drama at the end of the day. Yeah.
It's a courtroom drama in a musical. It's not my film. It shouldn't be my film. No,
but weirdly it is. This is everything I hate about the kind of films that I'm often accused
of liking because it's just, it's dull. And I think one of the things, one of the big
problems I have with it is that Joker one exists in its own right. Yeah, it does. It
sets out its own story and it doesn't explain itself and it doesn't have a point to make
more than this is the story we're telling and it is controversial and you can look at
it in lots of different ways. You can sit there and go, Oh yeah, what a stud, what a,
he stood up against, you know, authority and now everything's better. You can look at him
as a victim. Yeah. This kind of stuff, but it exists in its own universe. It does. It
does. This film is almost exclusively a conversation with the first film. It's almost exclusively
an overthought reaction to what the first film was and at no point goes, what is this
film saying about itself? Okay. We're going to have it be a musical, but we're, Oh, but,
but okay. But we do. We're going to controvert the musical. We're going to have it be about
the Joker, but actually we're going to have him go back on the thing that he said in the
last film. We're going to have him present it this way because of how he was presented
in the last film. It's an entirely reactionary work that's so overthought in so many ways.
It doesn't exist in it. So it has none of its own merits. It only works as a conversational
reply to the first film. Okay. And I, I do genuinely believe like Todd Phillips didn't
do any test screenings. He did not. He refused to meet with the studio. He did this completely
by himself because he's the great, he's the great genius who did the first one. Right?
I don't think that's the reasoning behind it, but I, yeah, it kind of, it smells a little
bit of that. You interpreted it way different to me, but yeah, I'll agree. That's fine.
I don't think the more I read of Todd Phillips in interview, I don't think he was intentionally
creating the work of genius that we saw with Joker 1. I think it was one of those things
where lots of things came together and it came out and it resonated. And I do sympathise
with that. It's almost like Joker was just thrown into infamy without really asking for
it or deserving it. Right. But then, but then when they say do a sequel, well, it's not
going to, nothing is going to happen to this character that is even slightly as interesting
as the first film. Oh yeah. Thousand percent, thousand percent. We're just going to have
it be him go, actually I'm not Joker and have it be what happens. You cannot play that down
to that degree that much. No, I can because what it does, because what it does is it robs
drama from the first film. Okay. Because rather than, rather than this being the moment that
a man decides that's it. I've gone too far. I'm in the wilds now. And do you know what?
That's life. I'm going to get my kicks stomping on a dream. Yeah. The second film, what are
you going to do that's as interesting, Todd? What if he went, Oh, actually, actually I'm
not. Okay. I have some of this because you've just underplayed the most important part aspect
of this film for me. The bit that sang to me the most in this film is when he's in court.
This film is ruined by the way. It's spoiled. It's everywhere. Spoiler warning is everywhere.
This is your biggest spoiler warning because from here on out, we have to talk about aspects
that are in the film that we cannot avoid because you've just ruined my entire takeaway
and I shan't be disrespected this way. So before, before you do, before you do, I just
want to say, I feel like with the first film, Todd Phillips had an incredible map because
he wanted to make a Scorsese style character study and he had the best map in the world.
He had King of Comedy with Robert De Niro, which just needed to be changed in pace, updated
and had a superhero mask put on it. And that's exactly what he delivered, but he did it with
a great twist and a great freshening up of the formula. Yeah. Yeah. No, I hate what you're
saying. And then he just went in with no map this time around. I disagree, but continue
and didn't have, didn't have a score. So there was no sequel to King of Comedy for him to
go. Oh, that's, that's, that's good for me to lift. He's a man that works well with limitations
for me. Okay. That's fine. I do. I used to work with artists all the time and they'd
be like, do that thing again. And you've got no idea how you did it. It was a million and
one things coming together magically. And I don't think he had any idea what, what a
Joker sequel needed to be. Okay. And still be engaging. I just don't cause it's not an
engaging film. That's fine. The scene that you have just destroyed in front of my very
face was my favorite part of this film by a long shot. It is a, it's a deluded mentally
ill man who is being manipulated into thinking that he has found love for the first time
in his life. He's found, he's found a true supporter, someone that gets him, someone
that understands him, someone that is there for him and someone that will be there until
the end. She's in love with him. She says that she's pregnant with his baby. Obviously
he's not a stud. He's not out plowing every weekend. This is a big thing for him. Once
he's found this, the delusion doesn't seem as appealing because of what he has in real
life is much more appeasing. He finally has an alternative. He's got something to live
for exactly to lose. He's got something to lose. And then when he's in this courtroom,
the prosecutor Harvey Dent, incredible actor, by the way, I don't know his name off the
top of my head in incredible part. Really? For me, the only interesting thing about that
character was the fact he was called Harvey Dent. No, he's a button down nerdy lawyer.
It's perfect. I think he played it perfect. Yeah. It's the standard smarmy DA that we've
seen in every film. Exactly. That's the sort of person that I want to see go two face.
That's the two face that I want to see go weird. You know what I mean? Cause he's got
that type of guy has got some stuff in his closet. I want to see it. He's every single
courtroom drama antagonist you've ever seen before. Yes. Nothing interesting. But not
know. This is the thing. What if those guys got blown up by a bomb, lost half their face
and then went weird? That's what I want to see. But you love this bit of the film. So
I love this bit of the film, right? And it's him and he's cross-examining Gary. He's presented
with the, uh, the woman that he was stalking and, you know, very much upset. And in these,
these witnesses and these victims to his sort of his Joker antics from the first film and
the realization of all of the effect that he's had on these innocent people's lives,
Gary was one of the, one of his friends. He was supporting him. He was like, you know,
go get him, Gary, go get him, Gary. Um, he's sitting there in front of the jury and it
slaps him square in the face. Right. That the people who are his fans and they're cheering
him on, they're not cheering on Arthur Fleck. They're cheering on the idea of delusion.
Screw all of you. We're going to burn it. Exactly. It's, it's, but it's him not, it's
Arthur Fleck not being Arthur Fleck. He's not being accepted for him. But whereas what
he feels with Lee Harley Quinn, he feels like he's being accepted for him. Yeah. And it
washes over him that all of a sudden Joker is a fantasy. These are my crimes. I need,
I need to face the facts of what, what has happened. There was six murders. I killed
my mother. This is where we're at. Right. And there is, yes, the musical numbers after
that are so painful that it's like, Oh my God, it's pure introspective moment. And coming
from a mentally unwell man, I've done some soul searching, right? Right. I've been holding
the mirror pretty close to my face the last couple of years and it's, it's not pretty.
But once there's not a straw between you and the mirror. Exactly. You know what I mean?
Now it's not lightly covered in powder. It's like, I could really get a good look at it.
It's horrible. I hate doing it because it makes me feel sad. It makes me feel scared.
It makes me feel somewhat alone. I'm just fortunate enough that I have you. I have my
friends. I have my family and I've not done five murders. Do you know what I mean? Like
I'm in a much luckier position and it just made me really, really appreciate everything
all in one go. And it was a gobsmacking moment. And I understand from a filmmaking point of
view, it's a very boring film. It's very boring. The pacing is horrible. It is because imagine
sitting down to James Cameron's aliens, right? And it's a courtroom drama with Ripley being
on trial for the destruction of the Nostromo. Yeah. And the big narrative arc of the film
is her going, I actually, I don't think there was an alien. Right. Yeah. I agree. That would
be horrible. Instead of aliens, we've got that. But there's nothing there for me. But
when it's a mentally ill dude, who's like having a breakthrough and being sort of like,
oh my God, I'm like, right. Yeah, buddy. I keep reading this stuff. Coming back to the
musicals real quick. There's so many people complaining about it and they're like, Joker
doesn't sing and dance. It's like, watch. Yes, he does. Watch. Yes, he absolutely does.
All the time. Shut up. He's a clown. Have you ever seen a Batman animated series? Watch
the animated stuff. He sings and dances all the time. What's wrong with you? What are
you talking about? Look, I think, I think it's, I've got no problem with the direction
of the movie. I've just got a problem with the, there is nothing in there that is as
interesting, interesting enough to warrant a film. That's fine. About this character.
It's like, okay. Like you said, wow. What happens to that character after Joker one?
Yeah. And the answer is, well, he sort of mootches about in prison for a bit, has horrible
stuff done to him, gets led on, has a pretty dull court case and then dies. I love how
you sum this up. We'd sum this up so different. I'd be like struggles to understand any relationship
that people are presented to him because it's all false. All of it is false. Of course.
I get, that's terrifying to me. I think it's my trust issues. It's my past traumas coming
through watching a guy who can't deal with that stuff suddenly go great. I need to. And
that was it. That was it for me. That's the takeaway. That's me done. Filmmaking horrible,
pacing horrible. It's right, but it's a fun thought experiment after you watch a film
and you go, yeah, but I mean, okay. So take like Heath Ledger's Joker when he blows out
the bank with a, with a school bus and then just drives away. I like to sit and think
sometimes and go, but what happened to the bank tellers when they were like, now we've
got to fix a hole in the wall.
No, no. The thing that always, the thing that I always, I always get this with, right. Cause
I'm watching a lot of fancy stuff at the moment. Rings of power has been on. Yeah. And it's
expensive. It's expensive fan fiction. And I'm like, oh, it's pretty. It's brain rot,
but it's pretty brain rot. There's, there's lots of scenes where like leaders raise their
swords in the air and everyone has a big shout. They're like, yeah. And then it cuts. And
I'm like, how long did they do that for? And then when you stop, what do you do next? You
just go a lot. I've lost my favourite bits. Brewery and those. He raises his sword as
a shout. Mate, you did a great shout. That one, that was what? That was way longer than
last week. And then what do you do? Like you just go back to mooching about. Well, I've
got the safe way before it shuts. That's gotta be the most awkward experience in the world.
When you're in a big group of people and you all do a big team cheer and then like, Rob,
I would see that film in the cinema twice. I would see the immediate, if a film started
with the tail end of a leader, sword in the air and everyone just immediately going, yeah.
So do we go now or is this like a hype up thing? Like, is this the meeting? Is this
the preamble? Right. Cause I've, I've, I've got food on. I need to take, I need to do
something before we leave. I didn't realize we were leaving right now. It's the sort of
thing that makes sense before a battle scene. But if you do it any other time, they always
do it when they're like, oh, we're all a bit downtrodden. Cause we know we're, we're retreating
and then they do the sword moment and everyone's better. And I'm like, but you've still, you've
still got laundry to do post shouty bit. Yeah. Have you told everyone that you're leaving
immediately? Hey, what's your family thinking? This film is that. And you're right. It is
a lovely thought experiment. Yes. That's all it is. It's not a $450 million movie. No,
it is not. I can't even defend it that much, man. I went in and I had a fun time because
I was expecting absolute, absolute blended horse juice. Right. This, this would have
been a brilliant graphic novel. Oh, so good. Yeah. I agree. It would have been a brilliant
graphic novel. Yeah. And I knew that we were in trouble the moment the film started because
it starts an animated sequence and I was like, oh wow, this is going to be brilliant. And
I'd heard that it was the same guys that did the triplets of Belleville, which is also
called Belleville Rendezvous, that weird French animation about the cyclists. It started up
and immediately within the first 30 seconds, it was doing like a retro animation, but it
couldn't decide what decade retro it was doing. Yeah. But I like that though. Oh, it really
jarred. It really, really jarred. It was a little bit like, okay, are we doing Hanna
Barbera? Are we doing old school Disney? Are we doing, we're just doing a mashup of just
animation stuff. Oh my dear sweet baby angel boy. Oh, my pretty little pristine unicorn
egg. Listen, listen, just lean in one sec. Just lean in one sec. Bring your face, bring
your face close to the top of the face. It's Arthur's imagination, but that's not interesting
Ben. No, because that's not it Rob. That's a fuck you to James Gunn. That's four. Three.
That's three. That's three. I edited one, so that's three. All right. Three. There's
three. It's a, it's a, you know, it's a middle finger to James Gunn because James Gunn and
obviously the head of DCU left some notes for this film and Todd Phillips was like,
it's not a DC movie. It's a Warner Brothers movie. And then opened the film with the classic
Warner Brothers esque animation as if to be sort of like, and also there's no DC title
card until the credits. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.
That's the only reason that that exists. Speaking of Warner Brothers and James Gunn, uh, I think
Warner Brothers things, it's quite relevant. We need to talk about the ending, right? It's
gotta be done. I've got a thing on it. Well, I've got a thing on it as well. And it's a
thing that makes me dislike Todd Phillips more. Okay. When they were making Joker one,
they were going to have Arthur Fleck on the scene where he paints the smile on the face,
on his face with his broken nose. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is a brilliant scene. Yeah.
They weren't going to do that. That was a compromise. Okay. What they were actually
going to do was have him cut a smile into his face. Yes. But at the time Christopher
Nolan was still at Warner Brothers. He was. Warner Brothers hadn't lost Nolan. Yeah. And
so Nolan said, absolutely not director of the hangover. Are you taking my character's
Chelsea smile? Yeah. Like that's my Joker. Do something of your own. And it was only
when he was told he couldn't do that, that Todd Phillips came up with something that
I think is arguably better for Arthur Fleck. You know, Arthur Fleck has been punched in
the face and he's turned that wound into a strength by painting a smile onto his face
with the blood from his broken nose. But to hear that that wasn't the first idea, it was
only what Todd Phillips did when Chris Nolan said no. And now that Chris Nolan said to
Warner Brothers that they can go stuff themselves and daddy Nolan's not in the Warner Brothers
house anymore. Yeah. Does Todd Phillips go, well, I'm doing it anyway. I'm doing it anyway.
Oh, you can't tell me what to do, Chris Nolan, cause you're not Warner Brothers anymore.
And does it with this new guy. And I'm like, yeah, so childish and petty and not creative.
No, I love it. That's the best. It's the best. Fuck your neck, chief. All right. Four, four.
It was worth it. I just, I, it feels petty. It feels petty. It feels like the things that
I enjoyed about the first one, it turns out weren't great ideas and Todd Phillips, they
were compromises made because daddy Nolan said no. And now that daddy Nolan's not there
anymore, he's like, Oh God, you're just upset that someone's punched Nolan from a distance.
No, I, I look, the man he's taken down a peg. I get it. He's just a brilliant director who
always delivers engaging. He always delivers an engaging film. Right. Okay. I've got a
different takeaway for the end in there, but that is fantastic though. It makes me like
Todd Phillips a lot more. We're going to spoil it. Another big spoiler one, the death of
Arthur Fleck. Yes. Is this the birth of the, of the joker, Todd Phillips from even before
the first film was released has maintained that this isn't, isn't Joker Prince of crime
from the comic books or previous movies. It is not that Joker. Right. He reiterated this
recently by saying Joker is not the Joker and this isn't the origin story. No, it's,
it's just an origin story. Right. Like we said in episode one where I was like it, the
film is called Joker. It's not called the joke. Exactly. So he's, he's then gone on
to quote saying that like, it's this idea that maybe this is the inspiration for the
real Joker. Yes. Now Arthur dies at the end of this film and it's possibly my favourite
self-help book that exists. Right. Arthur dies in peace, pure peace. No, he doesn't.
He's been stabbed with a shiv in the stomach four or five times. Yeah. But he dies in peace.
And let me tell you for why, right? Right. Arthur Fleck is being Arthur Fleck. And what
he's doing in that moment is when some young lad comes up to him and he's like, Hey, do
you want to hear a joke? He's not huffing and puffing. He's not like, Oh, I've got a
visit or I have to go. He's like, he shows a young nervous comedian, the compassion that
he was never shown. He lets him, he lets him crack a joke. He listens intently and he plays
into the bit. Right? Right. Now, if that isn't true personal growth, I don't know what is.
I have no clue what is. It's a very, very good point. He's been beaten up for years,
trodden on for years and he still gives a young kid who's nervous about telling a joke
a chance because he was never given that. Oh, beautiful. Not only will I agree with
that, I will, cause I've been very heavy on what I didn't like about this film. I like
you left the cinema knowing it was awfully put together, but really enjoying certain
aspects of what we did get. Yeah. And what you just mentioned there runs completely parallel
and can totally compliments what else I loved about this film. Okay. I don't think it's
interesting. I don't think Arthur Fleck is interesting. He's not. He's a very average
man. I don't think he's as interesting as Joker. Right. And that's what I feel like
we came to see was what's Joker going to do because it's a film about Arthur Fleck becoming
Joker in Joker one. Joker two is going to be what's Joker doing. And then it turns out
that actually Joker is just going to decide he's Arthur Fleck again. You're such a Harley
Quinn right now. I just need you to know that. And that's fundamentally uninteresting to
me. However, what I love about the ending of this film is it's not asking you to be
a Joker fan and enjoy the film. It's asking you, how much do you care about Arthur Fleck?
Because it's all well and good. Us watching Joker one and going, no one cared and no one
this and no one that. Do we care? No. Look at the box of his figures, Rob. No one cares.
No one cares. So in a way, in a perverse way, the flop of this film has done one thing.
It's his biggest success artistically improving. And I don't care that this is five, that society
doesn't give a fuck about the Arthur Flecks of this world. Because when you got a sequel
all about Arthur Fleck, no one turned up and the people that did, hated it. Exactly. Dude,
this is why I like this film because it turns everything on its head and goes, yeah, it's
a flop. Also not doing that again. Do you want to know why? Because what do you want
from me? Right. But it falls into the category of a film that makes, I could say I've got,
I've made this film that makes a point about how far we're willing to go to escape ourselves
and the awful mind numbing stuff that we're willing to put ourselves through in the hope
of a little bit of escape. And what that film actually is, is two hours of watching paint
dry. Now my point would be correct. People would come and watch it and they'd get to
two hours and go, you see, you sat there for two hours and watched paint dry rather than
live your life. Aren't I clever? Yes, I would be, but the film would still be objectively
bad. And I feel that's what this film is. I get that. Also, I feel like the film that
you just described could also be the synopsis for a circumcision documentary. It's just
everyone's in this, everyone in this world is after a little bit of freedom. I agree
with you about the ending. I think it's good. And I agree with you about the film. It's
an interesting, it's not, it's a, it's a worthwhile Arthur Fleck investigation. Exactly. It's
a fun thought experiment. It's, I think it's a great wrap up to a great character study.
It's a, it's a good follow on of what happens after a delusional mentally ill man murders
six people, finally owns up to his shit. That's six. I don't care. To be honest, mate, it's,
it's a multiple, multiple factors less than we used to do. We were on six by the second
minute and most of the intro was just me swearing. It was great. There's no more Blake. It's
no blame in the world because the world isn't to blame. Right. The world didn't see Arthur
Fleck because Arthur Fleck didn't exist. He was wearing a mask to hide the unhealed
trauma, right? Yeah. He was hiding himself from the world and then going, why does no
one see me? Exactly. And then he had no idea who he was. The world didn't start noticing
Arthur Fleck. They noticed Joker. Yeah. And after realizing this, Arthur Fleck admits
that Joker is a fantasy. That is his mask that he's been presented to the world. That's
what he's being recognized for now. It's a fantasy and he has to accept responsibility
for his actions. Yes. He was failed by the systems in place after social workers funding
was cut. But again, the systems were treating Joker, not Arthur. Right. And that to me is
mind bogglingly intense. It's a, it's a long four hour character study. If you watch Joker
one and two and it's a bit, it's a bit fucking weird. Look, it's a, it's a good idea for
a film. I think so too. If the film that you've just described had been made engaging, sure.
I would have adored this film. I get that. It's not what, it's not what this film is
trying to do. It's how it's trying to do it. It's not well paced. It's not focused. It's
not audience facing. It's not, it's not engaging. It's not good. But listen, if you're truly
working on yourself and you're looking at all the horrible stuff and you're dealing
with your traumas, it's not good. It's not engaging. It's not fun. It's right. And that's
very, very clever. Well done. Todd Phillips, clap, clap, clap, clap. I'm not going to watch
your film again. Because this is the thing when you're in the throes of it and you're
watching it play out on a screen, you're like, Oh, maybe me doing all of this horribly mundane,
boring, nonsensical, mind numbing uninteresting stuff just so I can get out of bed in the
morning is, is worthwhile after all, because someone out there deems it worthy of putting
$200 million into putting it in front of my eyeballs in my tiny town cinema. That's mind
blowing to me.
But if you want a film, if you want a film with flights of fantasy, talking about the
rehabilitation of an unwell man, watch Bronson with Tom Hardy.
Bronson's good. See, it's the exact same thing, but far better. Yeah, it's fine. It's fine.
This is Bronson with songs. It's bronze song. Bronze song. But we'll make this point in
its defense. Everyone talks, we talk about how the box office has become stale, how it's
become a bunch of B minus movies again and again and again, cookie cutter formula. If
you want bold, original cinema, this is what half of it has to look like. Yes. Yes. Yes,
buddy. You can't want a greater than 50% chance of enjoying a movie. Yeah, exactly. And expect
something totally unique and new every time. If you want cinema to flourish and you want
it to be doing new and unique things, 50% of the time of the cinema, it's going to look
like Joker 2. Exactly. You want speed all the time. What you just
want endless speed. Well, guess what, buddy? 50% of it is going to be speed too. All right.
Exactly. It has to exist to make speed a better film. Listen, I feel like we've just nailed
Joker 2. I think we have. I had a great time with it. You didn't enjoy it as much as, well,
I didn't think you'd enjoy it this much to be honest. I'm surprised we got this far.
It's bollocks, but it's interesting bollocks once. Yeah, exactly. It's a far more interesting
film to talk about than it is to watch. Yeah, agreed. Agreed. What are you rating it?
This is a four. Okay. That's way more. It's a beautiful looking
film. It's got some merit in the idea. It's got none in the execution. Okay. There are
some scenes like the scene with Gary that I think are really effective. Oh, heartbreaking.
There are other scenes where for no reason other than shock value, the prison guards
sexually assault Arthur Fleck. I don't think it's shock value, but that's fine. I think
it's literally just so Todd Phillips can say that prison guards are fucking clowns. That's
absolutely outrageous that you've just done that. That's a mint joke. That's fantastic.
I legitimately didn't even see it coming. Took a moment for it to drop. Well done, sir.
I also think that that's eight. You know what I mean? Fuck it. Make it nine.
Speaking of numbers, what are you rating it? I'm going to give this, you're not going to
be happy about this. I thoroughly enjoyed this film. I thought it was punishing to watch.
I thought it was mundane, but I think it was important. I think it was an important exercise
and it was a very reaffirming moment for me to see someone struggling with their mental
health, but it'd be important enough to be a focal point. I truly, truly enjoyed it.
I'm going to give it a seven. Wow. This is like the rule 34 of cinema for you, huh? Dude,
you're like the fourth person that said this to me. Someone out there is going to enjoy
it. Yeah, that's it, man. I genuinely had a good time with it. I know no one else is
enjoying it and that's fine. Genuinely, mate. Genuinely, mate. I would drop Todd
Phillips a message so he knows that it wasn't a complete waste of time because you might
be the only one. Nah, he listens to the show. It's fine. Do you want to know how much this
made in its first week? Oh God. 121 million worldwide. Okay. What's hilarious about that
is that everybody who was watching it out of curiosity, so that's as much as it will
ever make. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. It's the last Joker film in this universe anyway.
So that's fine. Oh really? Yeah. I would have sworn that Warner Brothers are going to be
like, guys, you have to. We've got another 500 mil, but we need to write off the tax.
Please. Have we got a comment corner? We do, but we don't have any time. So what we're
going to do, we've got an episode planned in a couple of weeks where we've got, it's
a big one. It's some big news. It is a big one. Some big news. Not necessarily pleasant
news, but we'll see. We'll got panic room and then we'll do a big bumper comment corner
on that week. Okay. After panic room. All right. Well, all right bud. If that's the case, then
I guess we are fully out of time. Guys, thank you so much for hanging out with us. It has
been an absolute pleasure. We love and appreciate each and every one of you wholeheartedly.
Thank you for spending your time with us. Ben is now going to thank you for spending
an hour of your week with us, especially at the start of the week. It means a lot, you
know? So he's going to wrap up the thoughts, themes and feelings of this movie into a little
Monday Motivation pep talk while I just tell you to do what society always tells you to
do, which is consume. I'm just going to lean into it, man. It's not fun. It's not paste
well. It's not an entertaining experience, but doing, doing slogging through the self
help work, you know, looking inwards, doing all that stuff. Get your four out of 10. So
fuck it. You know, I mean, be speed, be kiana on a bus. I think is the point of the film.
I think that's the takeaway from today, buddy. I think that's where we're at.