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Welcome to The Sunday Scaries: Work Edition. A podcast for hot takes and real talk on all your workplace quandaries, hosted by two burned-out girlbosses who’ve seen it all.

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I’m Bijal Mehta. I started my career building warehouses and super-fast delivery for the Internet’s magical two-day shipping. I’ve worked in Africa, Asia, Europe, and North America with both Big Tech and start-ups and became a Vice President leading a department of over 500 people. These days, I raise my playful daughter and chat with my good friend Emily.

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And I’m Emily Tao. I got my start making coffee as a production assistant at CBS News. Eventually, I became the first Director of Communications at the largest entertainment union in the U.S. and Canada. My 15-year career, and counting, has taken me from red carpets to political fights to Ivy League admissions offices.

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We’re here for your weekly dose of workplace reality. Let’s jump in!

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I would like to go back to you talking about your tomato plants. I actually don't know what you're talking about. I think I talked about them completely normally and I don't like how you're looking at me right now. I don't appreciate that face.

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You talked about them beautifully! As to whether it's normal or not, I don't know because of all my friends who have gardens and have planted things, the only one who's talked to me so much about it is you. I did get really into them, yeah. I planted, I think, way too many. It was like a cherry tomato varietal, my first year growing them. And I ended up growing so many little tomatoes. I think I harvested over a hundred in a day. Wow. Because they all ripened at the same time. 

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And it was on my, like, my little balcony in my apartment in Brookly. And they were delicious. It was, I think, a Chardonnay Napa tomato. And I had so much fun doing it and learned so much about like, when to harvest a tomato. You geeked out about it so hard, though. Well, it was just- There were, like, daily photo updates. Okay, yes, and there were also specific bugs that attracted that were like, and I was like, I had to go like yell at them, you know, get them off my crops. Then there was like a time. When is the best time to pick a tomato? Because tomatoes have water, right? But they also have sugars in them. And so you want to pick them at a time where the sugar is, where it's most flavorful. So it can't be too waterlogged, right? So there's like a time when to pick them. I don't know, it's just so interesting. And then afterwards, you have to like, add the nutrients that the tomatoes, you know, took up back into the soil. And you can do that by planting certain things or adding compost. It was just so much fun!

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And then every day I just grew so many tomatoes. And then in August, high tomato season. Oh, it was the best! I love tomatoes. Oh, I'm so glad people got a taste for your enthusiasm for tomatoes because - I don't know if I've told you this before - but at the time, I distinctly remember being like, “Wow, I don't think I have ever showed this kind of commitment and enthusiasm for anything.”

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Like, because it's like a commitment. It's not, I can get excited about something for a few days and like, totally geek out about it, but then I'm gonna move on. And you have, you know, with this, it's like you grow it, it's like the planning stage, and then you got to grow it and it takes some months and then the harvesting and then you're like, thinking about next season and what seeds you're gonna get. It was just such a long- I grew it from seed to plant. Yeah. It was fun. And I was so cool. And I clocked that as being like, wow, I don't think I've related to anything with that amount of like observational curiosity before. And then when my kid was born, I was like that. And I was just like, this is what Emily was channeling! Like I finally, I'm like, she's my tomato plant! I literally thought that to myself. 

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I did think to myself when my baby was fattening up, you know, the first few months they go from newborn to like chubby infant. And I was like, I have the same satisfaction of fattening him up the way I did like growing my cucumber plants. They just got so big and juicy. And I was like, yeah, look at the size of that. And I was like, oh, I did that. And I was like, wow, same satisfaction. This is why I knew you were gonna love having the kid. I'm like, it's just gonna be like one of your plants! One of your little vegetables you've grown. And he's growing. And he's growing. Yeah, a vegetable that tries to eat my shoe and, you know, bonks his head everywhere. He's really fun. He's so cute.

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Okay, Emily, you want to take us to today's question? Yes, it's my first time reading a question, I'm totally fine with it. All right. Today's question: “I was known for being really good at my job and a fast learner, which you'd think would be great, except everyone was constantly coming to me to fix their problems. ‘We just got Joey for that.’ I worked in broadcast television, so all problems were urgent, and I kept saying yes. One week, I did three different roles of which none of them were my actual role: I did graphics, line producing (a senior role), research, but my actual job was a producer doing stories. My question: when do you cross the line between going above and beyond at work to really being taken advantage of? And what do you do about it once the line is crossed? I'm about to enter a new job space and already feeling the pressure to prove myself. Signed, Feeling Taken Advantage Of.”

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So relatable. So relatable. I mean, it's a real like, this is a real girl boss trap, right? I don't know if this person is a girl, but like, it's a real girl boss vibe trap. It is something I feel like I do hear a lot from women because... But I don't know, that's maybe the bias is like, you know, we are women, we talk to our own genders differently. But this notion of like, competency and competency getting you far. And then at some point, competency feeling like it's your ceiling to getting further. But I definitely hear that amongst other people, like men as well. But just that, that, the relatable part to me was like the competency part, like... Yeah. 

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I mean... Okay, so, I have thoughts on this as a person who, I was so eager to please. Like, in my first jobs, I wanted to prove myself. And I was competent and I was a fast learner. So I feel like my, my idea of a “good employee” back then was like, say yes to everything, do more than you're asked. And that's your way up. I don't know if you had that. I was definitely raised like that too, where like, productivity is the pinnacle of you being a moral person.

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I was going to say it's a little bit like the school system though, kind of incentivizes that, right? Like you're like, “Oh, I'm getting a good grade. I'm doing well in my exams, but extra credit! You know, like how do I like, impress the teacher even more? How do I go above?” Especially now with things being so competitive in colleges and college admissions, it seems like, that like, certain tier of student is always trying to get above a 4.0 GPA. You know, like. Yeah. Which I didn’t know was possible. It’s like, that’s not how numbers work!

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What do you think about this question, Em? Like, you said that you, that you used to like, it's relatable, you used to be like that. You used to be like, “How do I get more work?” What shifted for you? Why? When? Was that a bad thing? Oh my gosh. Like, did it hurt you at any point? 

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I mean, my career... I think it definitely, my career grew, like overall grew, right? Good titles, good promotions, good jobs, accolades, awards. So all of those were signs that I was doing well. And I think when I was working at the entertainment labor union - this person worked in broadcast television. And so, when you work in entertainment, all problems feel urgent, right? The show is going on tonight. Every, everyone does everything to pitch in and get it going. Okay. Right? Like that's the attitude and that's the good attitude that you bring when you work in, when you work in entertainment, the show must go on. 

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And so there's that. And everyone's like a team player is the expectation. Yes, yes. And so part of that, that's the going above and beyond, right? You're not like, “Oh, that's not my job, so I'm not going to help.” You need to help get the show out on time. So you do your job. And then if anyone else goes, you do it.

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And then the other part is, there were parts where like, for example, we had like, a political activities department, right, to help get members activated, get out the vote, especially when there were big election years. And so I ended up, even though I worked in a communications role, doing a lot of political work, political and policy work and organizing, partially because I think the political department at the time was not that effective and I was very competent. So I got put on these projects. This is really, I did not know this, that about your story. Yes. That is how I got into, into policy and politics is because- This makes so much more sense because you do know so much about it. Yeah.

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Yeah. And so I was able to learn. I was a fast learner and I was able to do the work and keep it up, but I really didn't do it because I'm like, now I'm doing two departments worth of work and I'm not getting paid two departments worth of salary. And also I didn't want to do. This is not what I, this is not the job I wanted, right?

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And so there were some times- So if it was like a presidential election year, then everybody pitches in, right? But in between, that's when I was like, oh, this is, this is too much. This is too much pressure. And I, it has now become the baseline expectation that I'm doing more jobs than my job in a way that is burdening me and feels unfair to me. And therefore I'm getting resentful.

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And so I think part of it is like, it's me defining for myself what I want out of this job. And then the other part of it is like management, your boss, being good about those boundaries as well. And it also makes me think of something called “work to rule,” which is if you have a work contract- Say that again? Work to rule. Okay. So, if you have a contract saying you are working 40 hours this week, if you work to rule, you work exactly 40 hours, no more, no less. Okay. 

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Right, so some people, if there's like, a work dispute, they might kind of take these rules and be like, I'm going to follow the rules exactly to not do more than expected. And this can be a tactic for labor disputes and like, causing pressure on certain sides, right? But also I'm like, that's what a job description is for, right? Where you know what you are in for and I think that's really fair because some people are not working to do more than they need to. They're working so that they can make a salary and support their families and go home and spend time with their families and do that, right? They just want a stable job that is predictable.

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So yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on this, especially as someone who did try very, very hard. So how did you- And probably would try hard. Would try, how'd you reset? Like when you were like, at that point where you're working two jobs and it felt like... Bijal, I don't know. And how'd you even realize that you... Did you just get resentful and you're like, why am I resentful? How'd you know? ‘Cause like, part of this question is like, when do you know you've crossed the line?

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Yeah. I think it took me a really long time to find out. I'm actually curious your thoughts on it because I think part of what made me realize this is I'm like, when I was looking for a new job and I was trying to apply the same concepts, I felt very unhappy about each job prospect, right? And I'm like, oh, it can't be that- I mean, it could be that every job is terrible. But it can't be that every job is terrible when I want to find a new job, right? It might be my outlook on it because the way I approach work means that I'm going to burn myself out, guaranteed. Because you're going above and beyond all the time and I don't know how to say no.

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And so, I think this is even like, what led us to working on this podcast, right? We both are very competent, fast learners and we like to do good work. And I think for both of us, for different reasons, it really led to burnout. And for me, it was my personal life, right? My dad getting sick and passing away. I got really depressed after that. And I was like, there's no way I can take on more work when I can barely get up to feed myself. Like, there's no way that this, this life that I have right now is going to accommodate me doing more at work for what feels like very little reward. Yeah. 

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The part that I found so, I don't think I've heard you say this before, because it's like- Well, it's like, burnout is so interesting. Like, burnout is a clear sign that you've probably crossed the line, right? Yes. And I think what you're showing is like, there's burnout that can come from like, the load getting too high on the personal side. Like, you know, it's a huge thing to have a family member pass away.

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But it can also come from like, the workload itself being too much or the work environment. And when you said you were looking for jobs and every job felt not good, like, there was something to criticize or something to dislike about all of it. That is such a great litmus test to me. Like I'm like, what a great macro rule where it's just like, if you're putting yourself out there and everything is bad, everything is feeling bad. Like if you're- whether that's looking for jobs or networking or like, all your projects on your work docket, like every- Yes. Yeah, that's definite. That's such a, and that's a clear sign of burnout. That's really interesting. I don't know if I would have... Because it's like one of those things where you're like, let me just take a step back and look at this from a different point of view. It's kind of weird that everything feels bad, like every job coming my way doesn't feel good. 

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So I think that's like, a really interesting litmus test. I guess what you were asking me, like you were asking me something in all this. I wonder if you've experienced this because you are also competent and a fast learner and you really take pride in doing good work and you worked in a place where there was always more work to do. Yeah.

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So I think there's like... I think the burnout element, like crossing the line, like it's too much work for me personally is like, one angle to this question. I think another interesting angle to this question, though, is like when have you crossed the line like it's changing the way you're perceived in the workplace? Like people are just seeing you as someone that they can rely on or like their “get out of jail free” card and not really seeing you as a person who has your own goals and like, you know? Like, and...

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I think both are relatable in their own way. The burnout one for sure, I think for almost everyone I've spoken to, learning boundaries and personal boundaries and how to say no and when to say no and getting comfortable with that, like not feeling guilty about that. Everyone I know has to go on that journey. Like, in, in some way shape or form.

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And for me it happened because I burned out with my first job at Amazon. And actually, now that I think about it, I had the same realization. I was, you know, at the, I was really, about to get married. I was so excited about getting married and I remember calling my dad and I was like, in Japan doing a work trip like two months out and calling my dad just being like, “Objective me, my life sounds amazing. Like, I'm traveling to these amazing places. I'm in a fancy fancy hotel. I'm about to marry, you know, the person that I'm so excited to marry. And I'm crying in the shower every day.”

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And I was like, “Dad, I just don't think I can do it.” Which was like, one of the most intimate conversations I've ever had with my dad, and that's kind of interesting because I, it's not usually the kind of things that we talk about. But I did actually have that moment, that point of realization being like, “I should be happy right now and I'm not and that's weird.”

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And that was my recognition that this is something I have to learn. Because Amazon's the kind of place - I always say this about it and I don't know if it's still true - but what I felt when I was there was, it's the kind of place that will always, that will never teach you how to say no but it will respect you when you do say no. So like, if you put up the boundaries, it's going to respect it but if you don't, it will always take advantage of that. And I have just found that as a great rule of thumb in general about organizations, particularly for-profit companies, mostly because that's the principle of a business. Like, literally the legal purpose of a business is to continuously grow.

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That is, of a publicly traded company, right? That's their, so it's like, it's a little, I don't know, I almost think of it like chess pieces. Like, what's everyone's incentive, why are you on the board, right? And the company's reason for existing is to continuously grow. How do we do the most with the least? That's their job! There's nothing wrong, I don't take it personally or whatever, right? That's, but if you're going to work, if you've decided to work in- Probably true for other industries but for sure where my experience, like for-profit, publicly-traded companies or even not publicly-traded but aspiring to that status. Right. Like, how do we do the most with the least?

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So then you, as the person, have to decide what's your job and what are your boundaries and what are you going to sign up for. And so after Amazon, I got way bad. I never got to burn out. Like, when I left my startup, it wasn't because I was burned out. I mean, I was for sure tired. I worked really hard. But I wouldn't say it was that I was burned out, it was that I was ready for the next thing in my life. 

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But the other question, angle to this question is like, when have you crossed the line because other people are taking advantage of you? I think that's kind of interesting and a little bit different and I'm curious if you have experience or thoughts on that.

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So I, when, I wouldn't say it's other people taking advantage of you. I think it's the company taking advantage of you. I know the company's made up of other people, but I think it is- That's an interesting distinction. Yeah. I think it's a company culture, right? Because when you work at startups, for example, it is, it is an expectation in some that you give everything, right? And you could have a very big reward with that but like, that versus like, a more nine-to-five job in an accountancy agency, for example, or accounting firm. It's going to be different work expectations, right, and work time expectations. So I think that's, to me, is really important.

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And some of it is just like, how much are you allowing for yourself to be kind of run over and doing too much? And the other part is how much is the company taking advantage of you, really taking advantage, right? I agree, Bijal. Like it's really what can we, how do we maximize with what we have. And this actually reminds me of my most recent job where I worked at a non-profit and I took a position where I was able to work outside half the year, so it wasn't a straight office job. It was my first non-office job and I was hugely overqualified. This was for somebody straight out of undergrad trying to get some like, first work experience and I came in with like my master's degree and like 15 years of work experience. I was also like, way older than everybody there, right?

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And so, once the folks there found out that I was capable of doing much more than the job description, which was basically like a glorified internship level of responsibility, so quite low, they started giving me more things to do that were at a level and I was like oh I'm not gonna do this. You just said it just like that? And I said it, yeah, I'm like it's not in my job description. I purposefully chose this job to like have an easy transition back into like, full-time work to see if I could do it because I wasn't full-time working for a few years. And it was, you know, a tough transition, I was so tired all the time. 

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And so that actually led to some difficulty between, you know, the higher-ups and myself. But we were all like, around the same level, around the same age. I was possibly like, had more work experience than some of them. And so, they were just not going to get me to do what I didn't want to do. And the other part was, I did not feel that drive to prove myself. And I think that's maybe- Like to the point where you were like, fine if they decided to fire you or something? They were, yeah, because I was doing what needed to be done for what I was hired for. They wanted me to do more because this was like, a huge resource and they could do a lot with me, right? But it sounds like...

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I mean it sounds like, but you were also clear that you didn't want to do more. You were clear on why you were there. You're not there to do more than the job description- Correct. -Because it, though in this case, it was a transitional role for you, it's like- Yeah. -You were like, “I know my capacity for my stage of life.” Yes.

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And a few months into the job, actually, they wanted to hire me full-time, that's how much they liked me. So I knew they were not going to let me go. Even though you were setting these boundaries? Yeah. Interesting. Because I’m awesome, I’m awesome! And I don't blame them for asking, right, because the best case is I say yes and then I do more work for very little pay, right? I do higher level work for very little pay, and that's a win for them and that's not a bad thing if I agree to it.

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So I think, you know, this question asker is also saying they're entering a new job space and already feeling the pressure to prove themselves. And for me, when I was at that job, I didn't feel that pressure to prove myself the same way I did at my first job, right? And so, I wonder if you ever had that, especially if it was like a first job or a first big job and then you're moving on to the next one. Did you feel that need to like, prove yourself by showing how good you were, by doing more work, by doing this?

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Interesting question. I want to say no, and then in my head, I'm imagining all the people I've worked with just laughing at me for me to say that. I... So there's, at the heart of this question for sure is, just to take a step back, is like I think this almost-premise of like what is your values? Like, what is motivating you? Why are you showing up? And it's, to me, I read this question and I'm like, this person really values like, competency and being like, thinks that that's their biggest contribution to the workplace. And it's like, doing good work is why I'm here and doing good work is why I will be valued and doing good work is what I value about myself.


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And I actually feel like something that's worth sitting down with is like, is challenging that. Like, doing good work might have gotten you here but like, moving forward, especially if you want, if you're invested in longevity and you're invested in moving up in the company - and I kind of get that sense with this question because they're like aware of their role and what's a senior role and things like that - if your goal is to move up, you have to, I think, like just objectively, your value isn't just doing good work. Your value is, your contribution is so much more than that. It could be your ability to be strategic, it could be your ability to just not get burnt out. Yes. 

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That is one thing I have learned, yeah. Senior people so often continue to stay in those senior roles because they just have learned how to be. They can stick it out, because they can just stick it out, they can ride those waves. They can endure. They can endure, exactly, and hopefully they endure using healthy habits, but still. They can just endure, right? And like, so there's, and like, I've now been through, I've been at organizations for so long I've seen the cycle of that and I'm like, I see the value of that. There is a value to someone who's endured. And it's not the same value as someone who's competent. 

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And so it can irk you a bit sometimes. I'm like, they're- Usually the person who endures for a long time is one thousand percent not the most competent person in the room, by a lot. You know? Like but, but they're bringing something else to the table and that something else does have some value, I think. And so I think there's something about thinking about your values of like, what motivates you but also what do you bring to the table, kind of from that sort of third party point of view?

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And so to your question, you know, did I ever feel the need to like, prove myself that way? I worked really hard so it might have looked like the same thing from the outside, but it was from a different internal motivation. I didn't feel like I needed to prove myself. I just like really- and I, and I say this because I'm thinking about my very first like, full-time job, like non internship out of college. And that first year, there were weeks where I really wasn't working even a full 40 hours and I know that because I was doing like this data analytics project that was really complicated and nobody knew how to do it and it was like totally outside of my skill set.

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And I really remember feeling, and I, I remember talking to my manager about it. I remember being like, I feel insecure because I'm like, I don't, I don't feel like I'm making a ton of progress or this is going a lot slower than I expected. I'm having a hard time predicting how quickly I can get this kind of work done. And he was so, he was a great manager actually. He was so generous with his point of view. He was like, very clearly was just like, “For me, this is so valuable that it doesn't matter if it takes three times as long to get it done because we've just never had this, this like analytical point of view. I want this tool to exist, it doesn't exist. It doesn't matter how long, I just, as long as you're committed and you get it done with the right quality bar, it's not about the time.”

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And that was such, I think that's such a great example of where you think you know what your contribution is and then you ask someone else and it's like, oh no, that's not at all what I would say is the most important thing you're bringing to the table.

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I really love your point about competency not being the most valuable thing you can bring to a workplace. And I think that it is something that is really valuable, at least for me, when I was first starting out. Because that's what I could give. But now I have so much more wisdom and experience in other ways that you can only learn by working a lot, right, having that work experience, so yeah. I think that's, that's my takeaway. Your point is my takeaway for this question asker, right?

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So, you know, as this question asker is entering a new job space and feeling that pressure to prove themselves, I think what you said is really accurate Bijal. Like, having to reflect on that, being like what is my goal out of this, right? What is my, what do I want out of work and life now, right? Me, when I was 25, I loved traveling. I traveled so much for work and now, at this age, I'm like I never want to travel. I want to be in one room with my tomato cucumber baby and do that, right? It's very different.

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And the other part is, like, now that I am an experienced person, an experienced worker, what else do I bring other than competency and learning fast, right? What else do I, am I good in a crisis, right? Am I picking up the tone of something really fast, that's super valuable, right? And I mean another thing is just am I awesome to work with? Because you spend so much time with your co-workers! Sometimes it's hard to work with someone who's really competent and like, a huge asshole, right? Right! Or just boring. So all things to think about, yeah.

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So, I don't know if you have takeaways for this, Bijal, but I really like your point and that's, that's my takeaway from this. I think I have... Just to take it even a step farther, which is just like, it's amazing to get to the point in working where you're just not even, you're just trusting that you bring value. You might not even know what all of it is and why it's happening, but you're bringing it. And I think particularly when I started managing so many people, like such a big department, a lot of my work was like, going out and having like, Ask Me Anythings or big like, reviews with these teams, like going out and visiting sites and kind of rousing them up and motivating them. And it's such a little bit of an abstract way to work. And, but afterwards, like sometimes months later, years later, I still get people reaching out to me being like, I remember this one xyz moment or this thing you said- Wow. -Or whatever.

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Honest, it’s like one of the greatest gifts of working, is those types of little feedback. You just never know when what you’re going to do is going to inspire someone or motivate something or set something in the right direction. And I have found, over time, if I’m just trusting, it creates a level of ease to the work that is really sustainable for me. And just brings great, it’s like, it’s almost like just trusting the luck will come from that point of view. And again, I think a lot of the executives or senior leaders or people who’ve worked for a long time exhibit that mentality a bit. They’re just, they’re, they get to the point where they’re not even asking the question. So that’s like one of my takeaways, I’d say.

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All right, well. I hope this was helpful, Feeling Taken Advantage Of, because I think it’s really important for you to establish for yourself what is important in your life, where does work sit with all of that, and to kind of grow as you enter a new job space and continue progressing.

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That’s it for this week’s Sunday Scaries: Work Edition. If this episode resonated with you, subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and leave us a review!

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Got a workplace horror story or a burning question? Send it our way at sunday.scaries.work.edition@gmail.com. We might tackle it in a future episode. Or just have a good private laugh.

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Sunday Scaries: Work Edition is produced by Emily Tao, Bijal Mehta, and Jessica Ma. Our theme music is by Bitter Old Men and artwork is by Erin Leeder.

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Until next week, may your inbox stay manageable and your work- life balance tip towards life. Bye!