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And now a message from our sponsor.

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If you want to join the Patreon, head on over to Apple iTunes and review and subscribe.

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That helps out the channel as well.

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Okay, I'll go rate it I guess.

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And remember, listen to Toys on Tap.

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Captain Bootleg, the bootleg captain sent ya.

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Why do you keep referring to himself in the third person?

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Good night. Stop with the stupid voice now. I'm not sure why you made me want to sound like a pirate.

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Oh, so that was a fake voice.

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Aw, yucko!

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I didn't realize it was just a pretend voice. Oh, okay.

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I'm going through the Goldbergs and your episode just came up, which was fun.

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Really? Interesting. Okay.

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Well, that's a good place to start. I mean, I did kind of want to talk about the TV shit.

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Because that's kind of played a pretty significant role in like how all of this shit has unfolded.

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Yeah.

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And I'm still living, you know, in the ripple effects of, you know, some of those endeavors.

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I think like, just again, just to like, just to give it some context, to just like roll back, roll back the timeline a little bit.

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Yep.

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And just talk about how I have been on and off of television since I was like four.

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You know, like I remember the first time I was ever on TV, I was like four years old.

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And this is we were living in the West Village with my family. And we used to watch PBS a lot.

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It was into, you know, Sesame Street, Mr. Rogers, all of that shit.

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And there were a lot of these shows in like the early 70s, like Free to Be You and Me and all these like things where it was just like all these very sort of hippie or like post hippie,

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like sort of like hippies with families and kids doing ecological stuff.

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I don't think they called it environmentalism at the time. They called it like ecology or whatever.

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And we lived in the West Village and there was this recycling center, you know, since like the recycling movement started to get going.

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And there was this little block with no buildings on it where people would dump their recycling.

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And this feels like it's in another planet at this point. But like people who lived in the neighborhood would just volunteer to go and work there for nothing.

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Geez.

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Yeah. So that's what we did. Everyone in my building, we lived in this co-op building with a bunch of young families.

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And on Saturday and Sunday, we would go down there and bail up newspapers and crush cans.

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And they had these metal boxes that you would get in and you'd have the safety equipment on and it'd be filled with glass.

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And you'd have to smash all the glass for some fucking reason, like they had the one for the green glass, the brown glass and the clear glass.

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And this wasn't really for the kids. This is like the grownups would go in there and just smash glass bottles and then have those all.

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I don't know what the fuck was going on. But anyway, one of these little hippie TV shows that was on Channel 13 was filming there.

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Yeah.

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And I was excited with the prospect that I'd get on television. And so they came for the day and I would do little things.

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I was four. What could I really do? But I would help with the newspapers and carrying things around.

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And I remember they were filming all day and I was like, wow, I'm going to be a TV star.

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And then the show finally came on and I was on it for like one second. It's just like a piece of B-roll. And I was livid. I was fucking livid.

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I didn't like I really thought that like it was going to be about me for some reason.

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And then they were going to give me more action. But I don't know. I guess from that point, from that point, it was just always getting on TV was just something that happened to people.

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And a few years later, in 1980, I had my other my second appearance on television was when we went to go see Empire Strikes Back on the opening day.

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And this is like we went at people had been lining up at 430 in the morning, which was outrageous at the time.

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Yeah.

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That anyone would do that.

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Yeah, because that's that's crazy because I've seen scenes and clips and stuff where people like it was just so mind blowing that that was the first time people had ever seen others do that. Right.

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I think so. I mean, it was like one guy dressed as Darth Vader there. And, you know, I mean, this is where you had to actually line up and buy the fucking ticket.

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You know, and people started lining up at four in the morning. My mom took me out of school that day and and a couple of my classmates.

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And we went up to Lowe's Astor Plaza on 40th Street, I think that was where where where I saw the original Star Wars.

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And she somehow finagled somebody to let us cut ahead on the line. You know, so she cut the line with like me, her, me and about four or four or five other kids.

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And the news people were there, you know, covering the spectacle, you know, this shit is on my website and on my YouTube page.

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And they were like looking for people to talk to. So I screamed out, I saw Star Wars 21 and a half times.

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You know, and they wanted to talk to me. And so they stuck the microphone in my face and they asked me a bunch of questions.

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And I was on on the news for like maybe 30 seconds or whatever. But, you know, it was a pretty, pretty telling, pretty telling thing.

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And then back real quick, going backwards. How did you find those clips to then use? Were they just you?

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Oh, no, I had them on VHS. OK, because we knew we knew what was coming on that night.

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So we went home and just, you know, you that's what people used to do. They used to tape TV. Yeah.

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You know, if there was a show that you wanted to watch and you couldn't watch it at the time, you would record it onto a fucking VHS tape.

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So anytime I have a lot of weird shit from TV that I recorded back then, just because that's what you did.

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I mean, all the all the weird Manhattan cable stuff, all the porn shows, I would record those things.

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So, yeah, I had them on VHS tape and I just I that I recorded myself and I digitized them.

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And then not a whole lot of shit happened after that.

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And then jump ahead to like 1997. Right.

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And I'm back in New York hanging around just doing dumb shit and partying and, you know, everybody's hustling.

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So some friend of a friend is like, yo, my friend is like here in the city and she's the dating game is here recruiting.

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They are looking to cast contestants for the dating game. I guess that's what they would do.

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They go from city to city and just have these open calls.

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And this person's friend is like, this person will make more money the more people that she can get to show up to this audition.

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So I was like, I fuck it. Let's go. We were drinking and fucked up. You know, we just sort of I just went there.

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I wasn't expecting anything. I didn't even give a shit. I just went there to help this person out.

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And but I auditioned. It was just in this little office room.

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And I got up there and I I told the story of my mom's tit clamps. Right.

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Just like they just, you know, they wanted something provocative and racy. So that was what I had available.

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So I told the story and and I wound up getting cast on getting cast.

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You know, so they flew me out to L.A. and I was on the dating game and they had me.

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I'm so dumb because they had me talking about they were like, like it was like and it was all racially segregated.

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You know, they had like there was like they would shoot to each episode of the dating game had two different games.

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You know, it would be first one would be like the men are and was all heterosexual.

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The men are behind the curtain and there's a woman picking. And then the second episode, the second scene would be like there's a man there and the three women are hidden.

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You know, you know how the dating game works. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

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You know, it's like basically you just ask questions of these three people you can't see.

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And then just based on the answers, you pick which one you want to go on a date with.

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So we were the white guys and then there was three black girls backstage for the next scene.

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So I was making fun of them, you know, in the green room. Yeah.

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And then which is not relevant to the story really, but it was just kind of fun.

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But then we go up there and like each guy, it was so staged, like they all the questions were pre predetermined.

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And they were like there was like the rockabilly guy who's all the questions were about his guitar and his hair gel and and and his car and, you know, his music and shit like that.

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And then there was the frat boy football idiot. And he was like, and they and then I was like the degenerate sleaze guy, you know.

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So and they were coached to like play to that type. And so the questions were like nipple clamps, tongue kung fu, which is like tantric yoga shit and porno movies and stuff like that.

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So I did my part. I have the I have this on my website, too.

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And I didn't win. Thank God the girl was not for me. But, you know, I guess I was too much for her. But, you know, whatever.

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I went how it went. But I was like getting comfortable with this thing that they flew me out there and, you know, just like getting comfortable with this idea of just being on on on TV.

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So a couple of years after that, in like 2000 was a 2004, I was so, so fucking broke and I was just desperate for money. And I'm looking on Craigslist for shit.

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And I see this ad. I was looking at everything creative jobs, acting jobs, things like that.

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And there was a thing like, are you a lovable loser that's having trouble with getting with with your love life?

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You know, we're offering a thousand dollars, you know, to to be on this new show called Beautiful Losers.

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And we're looking to we're shooting a pilot and we're looking for a subject.

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So I went to it. I went to meet these guys and I just did my thing.

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And they picked me and they picked me to be on the show.

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And it basically the this was a show that was they were pitching. They had pitched it to VH1. VH1 was interested in it and they needed to make a pilot episode.

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So it was me and these this production company.

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And it's just like a makeover show. It's like a three act makeover show where it's like act one.

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They meet you meet this sort of likable person that has a lot of issues.

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Yeah. And then they and then they figure out what the issues are from your attitude to your appearance to your habits.

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And they and then the second act is they give you a makeover.

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And then the third act is you go on a date with somebody.

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So they came into my house and they saw the famous this piss jar that I have, which is kind of famous.

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I still have the piss jar, by the way.

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And I was thinking about making an NFT of it.

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And, you know, and they just captured my whole personality and I was a very curmudgeonly kind of angry guy at the time.

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I was still living at my mom's house and I was just like really tight.

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And then they like and looked at my clothes were all gross and busted and everything like that.

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And then the second act, they got me some new clothes and gave me an attitude adjustment.

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And like they put me in all these situations where I had to deal with women.

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You know, and the narrator is there off camera giving me giving coaching me through all of this stuff.

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It's pretty fucking funny. And then the third act, I wound up going on a date with a girl that I saw in the in the New York Post.

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That was like I was I was in a band for a really long time.

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And this woman that I was in the band with was a DJ.

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And there was like a story in the New York Post about women, DJs, downtown women, DJs of color, you know.

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And there was this one girl, this like Filipino chick named Jenny Doom.

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And I'm like, oh, my God, who the fuck is that? She's so cute.

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So I had had my had the director that the producers arrange a date with her, went on a date.

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And then that was the episode. And she actually wound up scratching on a couple of songs on one of my records and then it didn't work out.

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But show got something that they showed that shit to VH1.

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And on the strength of that episode, they were able to sell the show and it went for one season.

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And then it then it got canceled. And then these people went on to create Love and Hip Hop.

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And and the rest is history on that.

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And so that and I got my thousand bucks.

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So I had and then it came on TV and for like a brief period of time, people would recognize me on the street because of it.

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And I got really, really hooked on that. You know, really, really like that shit.

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Now, a couple of years later, we talked about this at the end of the last episode.

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I'm on the toilet looking at Twitter and they have been open calls for work of art.

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Next great artist season two on Bravo TV, which for those who might not know,

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was just like a competition style reality show in the in the same format as like Top Chef or Project Runway, where you get a bunch of contestants every week.

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You hit them with a challenge and then they do the challenge and you follow the drama and the process.

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And then at the end, some experts look at the results.

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Somebody wins and gets accolades and prizes and somebody loses and they get eliminated from the show.

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And I was like I had already I'd seen the first season of the show and I was like, I should have been on this.

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What the fuck? So when I saw when I saw the audition, I immediately knew I was going to get on it.

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No problem. Like there was an open call at Brooklyn Museum and five thousand people showed up.

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And then they had an open. Yeah. And then I had an open call in Chicago and an open call in L.A., which about the same amount of people.

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So fifteen thousand people showed up to fill like ten spots.

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And for not one second that I ever questioned that, I knew I would just knew I was going to get this.

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What was that in you that knew what like?

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Well, because I've already been on TV a couple of times and for whatever reason, I just seem to work well on TV.

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Yeah. Like I'm a complete disaster on Tinder.

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But on television, like the best parts of me come through succinctly and people just seem to get it.

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And like that's not a flex or anything. It was just like I had had and I had already been on TV twice to realize that I had certain strengths in that area.

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And that I figured in addition to that, my art is kind of interesting.

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And I knew it wasn't even about the art. They weren't looking for great artists.

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They were looking for personalities that would that would make the show work.

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And I think that's what gave me the advantage over everyone else there who thought that they were going there to sell themselves on the merits of their work.

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Which wasn't that that at all. But also the work was interesting and unique enough.

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And I was able to speak about it articulately in order to get it.

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So I'm waiting online for like five hours to get into this fucking thing.

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And finally, you get into the Brooklyn Museum and there's like all these tables, like there's like a couple of dozen people interviewing the contestants.

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You have like seven minutes to sit down with this person, show them your portfolio and give them your shtick.

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So sit down. I did the thing. Boom. I said what I had to say. I had a little book.

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I actually sold this book on one of my live auctions last earlier this year or last year.

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I felt like shit. The phototaphtography was terrible and the printing was really bad.

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Someone paid a couple of hundred bucks because it was the work of art audition book.

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So that's the thing about being on TV that's so great is that it it just creates instant ephemera that you can sell.

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So anyway, I got and I got and then later that day I get the phone call.

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We want you to come back for the second round.

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Bring a piece of work and come back in a couple of days and you're going to and some of the producers are going to be there.

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So I go back and Simone's puree is there who is a famous auctioneer from this house auction house called Phillips the Puri.

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And he's do you know who he is? He's like I know is this Swiss guy and he's got this flair for for you know,

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Gavileen and he's just you know, very dashing and dapper and and he already I had the whole ringer because he already knew who I was because a few years prior to that this guy named Steve Agen was was working there

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and they wanted to do toys because Christie's had done a toy auction like the year prior and like 2007 or some 2008 and they wanted to get on that.

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So they were just curating like toy art, everything from like vintage, you know, Japanese Godzilla, Kaiju shit to like contemporary stuff.

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And we interrupt this broadcast of Toys on Top to bring you this.

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Meanwhile, in a galaxy of bootleg treasures.

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Do we do we have a failure on DKE2 planet.

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Oh my.

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Wait, salvation.

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Hooray! We saved Dov2.

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Limited edition custom artist made action figures and DKE toys.

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Check out www.dketoys.com for a full catalog.

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Hooray for custom action figures.

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DKE.

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He knew who I was. He bought one of the pieces that I had in his auction was like a DJ Stormtrooper is like a 12 inch 1-6 scale like Marmot Stormtrooper thing that I turned into a DJ and he bought that so he knew who I was.

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So I aced that second.

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I aced that second interview no problem. And then there was one final audition.

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Yeah, 15,000 or 5,000 second was how many people you think probably cut it down to a few hundred.

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Okay, so once you get into the third it's like 10, 20, 50 people.

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Something like that and they flew me out to LA.

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And I just played them like a fucking cheap fiddle man.

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That's why I was sitting there and was like the main people from the producers and China Chow was there and I knew I just I just knew what to say.

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And I and was just the foot I kind of fucked myself in a way, because right at this moment I'm at the height of my bootleg figure super villain celebrity.

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This is like 2010 2000 early 2011.

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And like, I was on a sale at this time my confidence was at an all time high and everything was going great for me.

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And I had like fully matured into this persona that I had created. So it was just there and I just I had them wrapped around my finger.

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And I presented myself that I was going to be the sort of antagonist of the show, which they definitely wanted like rabble rousers and shit stirs and I was like I'm a diabolical super villain.

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Yeah, you know.

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And so they cast me and but the thing is what the fuck me up is that that's hard to maintain, you know, when you're actually a good decent person.

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So then we start filming the show. Yeah. And it's it's in New York City.

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And I was just like very prepared for it, you know, because I had I just I think what I went into this, unlike anyone else because I, I was going to make television, I wasn't going to make art.

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And that's what undid me ultimately I was going to make television.

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And, you know, like I didn't want to meet any of the other contestants before the cameras started rolling. You know, they had this all in this holding room and I was like I hid behind the wall.

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I was like, you know, like, what's the point of meeting these people? Because then when I meet them on camera, it's going to be fake.

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You know, like we're going to I don't want to do any acting here. Like I want this. This is reality TV. Let's make it real.

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And, you know, they weren't they and unlike the dating game, there was no coaching or anything like this company named Magical Elves was doing the show.

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And they're they're one of the top, top like production companies for for this like sort of like like, you know, signature like, you know, high end reality TV, you know, and it's like they very much are about making keeping it real.

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You know, so so they didn't they didn't give us any coaching, which was fine for me. So get there. And basically, and I immediately fucked up.

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Like because what I had failed, I knew I had the producers on my side and like everybody else on the show is really nice, which became a problem for me.

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And having positioned myself as the the the antagonist, there was nobody worth antagonizing, you know, like they want, you know, these shows thrive on people fighting with each other.

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But everybody was so nice, you know, and we were all kind of like in the same boat and we're all kind of nervous and scared.

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And it's traumatizing, you know, when you make friends with somebody and then you have to watch them struggle and be humiliated and then and then removed.

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All that type of stuff hit me in a way I wasn't prepared for. And also because I was so focused on my performance that I wasn't really thinking about the work that I was making, like the first time we got we got the first challenges to we they took us into this

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gallery inside the Brooklyn Museum and they have all this terrible thrift store art hanging up. And the idea was like you're going to take some of this kitschy work and make it and then turn and elevate it right and they had this blacklight painting of Frank

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Zetta's interpretation of Gandalf from the Lord of the Rings cartoon. So I snatched that off the wall and not really thinking how little time because you have like a day a day like you have like about a 14 hour day, and then a few hours, the next day, and then you

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have to hang it on the wall, and they're going to judge it. And I'm like, I'm going to make this resin figure and I had this whole thing you know, like I and I like my process I wanted to show them the toy process, you know, with the molds and all that crap

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which didn't even really make it in the cut. And like I didn't plan it out right. And the piece looked like crap, you know, or just didn't come out right I don't know why I didn't just make a blister carted figure I wanted to make something a little bit like a diorama and all

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that crap and I just couldn't do it. And what I had failed to consider is that all the smoke that's being blown up my ass by the producers and everything like that has nothing to do with the judges of the show, you know, like they don't interfere with

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the judges. And unfortunately for me there was a one Mr Jerry salts, who was the main judge I mean there was Jerry salts this other guy named Bill powers who was also kind of a jerk, and China chow, who was very nice and, and were the judges,

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you know, have a rotating guest judge, and I didn't really know much about Jerry salts or anything like that. But like cute kitschy little geeky things that come out of the world that we know, ain't his bag.

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And like, I hadn't realized that, and I didn't even give it any thought I just made what I felt like making I wasn't even I didn't even kind of forgot that we were going to even be judged on this I was having so much fun just being on camera and shooting

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and doing my little shtick that I forgot to think about Oh wait a minute this is a competition. Yeah. You know and then I also read later on in his blog because when the show is airing he blogged about it.

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And he basically said up from the beginning when I heard that there was a person named the suck Lord on the show. My number one priority was to get him off the show as quickly as possible.

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Like he already didn't, he was already against me, and I gave him the ammunition to, to, to, you know, to give it to me because I didn't make good shit.

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I was very bad at planning planning it out and I can't just draw a picture you know it's like I'm up I produce artwork, and there's an industrial side to it and it's just like I had a real hard time translating this, and he gave me the business and on the first

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day, fortunately it was the first episode, and like I had enough to say about Gandalf and what this means I was able to wring out some sort of purpose to it and thankfully, there was somebody there that made an even bigger turkey than I did.

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And the first guest was Mary Ellen Mark who's deceased now but she's a famous photographer. And somehow through all of all of that she she got me.

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You know when she defended me, and she was and they out of respect for her. They chose not to eliminate me. And then kept going it was a relentless relentless fucking schedule you know as soon as that was over like you know you do the crit right was

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basically you'd work all day, then you'd go home late sleep and we're all sequestered, you know we're all in this, we're all staying in this hotel they took our phones, we weren't allowed to call people we weren't allowed to go on the internet.

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So we're just living in this hermetic, you know, bubble, and the next morning they get us up and it's like as soon as you wake up the cameras are in the room, you know, filming you fucking wiping your ass or whatever and just like every little detail everything

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that's going on is being recorded.

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And all the alcohol you could possibly drink is available. There we go.

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And, and it just every day, like there was a day off, once or twice, you know, to like do laundry and just like do catch up interviews because they're interviewing you while this is all going on, you know, and like they'll pull you off the out of the studio and sit you

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down and talk to you for an hour because they want every person on the show to narrate every detail of what's going on, because they use that stuff to cut to cut the narratives together.

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And so, over time, I'm getting tired. And I'm getting too drunk, and like showing up hung over to this shit I fucking regret that so much that I just didn't have the discipline to control myself.

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And I managed to like sort of wiggle through, like the next couple of contests we did like some kinetic art shit, and, and some, and a pop art challenge which I thought I made some cool shit for but like I didn't the best I could do is like I wasn't up for the for the

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critique or the crit, because at the end of the ever you hang the shit up they have a little party running which was that one of the parties before I met him, which was kind of interesting.

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And, um, and then, and then they, you know, then they tell you who the winners are like every person has to explain their shit. And then, and then they have the elimination and it takes hours and hours and hours and hours because they have all these cameras

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that they got to move and like you're sitting around and like by the time you get home your beat. And so I got, I got exhausted. And then, then, then my facade cracked, because like on the fourth episode.

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I introduced a children into it. You know, like they like, yeah, that's your weakness. Well, I didn't know it was going to be my weakness at the time.

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And I somehow intuitively knew that something like this was going to happen but we go into the studio. One day to hear what the new challenge is going to be and this is the one where Sarah Jessica Parker was the guest judge.

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And so she was there. And, um,

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there's all these every person's workstation has a little child sitting there. And there's this like nine year old girl there. And like each child at my table and each child has

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a piece of artwork that they created and that it's your job as the challenges to like reinterpret that artwork and elevated and make it better, which on principle I was offended by that concept.

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You know, what are you saying that like because they're a child that their artwork, somehow needs refining or whatever it's like her painting she made this painting of a tree with all these little creatures in it.

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It was fine. It was a nice painting by a child what what the fuck am I going to do to this thing. And then it just got discombobulated because and I realized like, I knew, I knew that like, I was vulnerable with the judges and that like I didn't really

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know what my artwork was landing and I knew that I couldn't come up with anything and I knew I had to make them happy. But then I got all confused because I was just like, if I lose this challenge.

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Is this kid gonna get a feel a certain type of way about that like is it, is that a loss for the child to is this kid gonna feel bad or feel like a, is that going to hurt their sense of themselves as an artist if I fail.

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I don't know if it would have or wouldn't have but I just my whole fucking priorities change and it's like I have to make something that makes this kid feel good about themselves, you know, and, um, I don't know what the fuck possessed me but I was going to make this sculpture

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I was going to turn it into a sculpture and make like a diorama out of it me and the goddamn fucking dioramas all the time. So I sculpted this big tree, and, and I, and I, I took I did way too much. And I was going to put all these little Star Wars figures because I had all these

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boxes of toys always like painting these Wookiees green and making them the little creatures that lived in the, in the little nooks and crannies of the trees. And then unfortunately, I didn't plan my time out and like by the time it was like an hour before it had to go down into the

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gallery and it wasn't even painted. And I'm like, Oh fuck, you know.

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So I slept on this coat of orange and brown paint and it just looked fucking awful.

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It just looked fucking terrible. You know and I'm like, it's like they're counting down the minutes five minutes five minutes and I'm like hot gluing green Chewbacca is into this fucking ugly piece of shit.

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And then they finally wheel it out into the gallery and I'm like a mess I'm like about I'm on the verge of tears because I'm like this girl is going to see this thing and hate it and hate me.

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And like I wasn't even thinking about the critique or the elimination anything like all the fucking bravado and all that just went out the goddamn window.

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I don't know why I guess I'm not a father. I don't have children I don't around children that much. So I didn't realize that all human beings have within themselves this sort of like package of emotions and instincts that just turn on when a child becomes

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responsible. Yeah, you know, and I was not prepared for any of that. And I didn't know what to do with it. And then I suddenly went from being this cheeky super villain guy to this very sincere emotional person.

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And that wasn't that was thank God just enough to save me because Jerry salts was ready to destroy this fucking thing. And the only thing that saved me. This is where the I mean this is that I cried during the critique, you know, because I just like I

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first of all I got fucking so I got mad because like they were being such dicks like everyone that went through this challenge felt a certain type of way, you know, like half the group was like all got we all got emotional for some reason maybe just because we were

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tired but just like, you know, just like all this childhood shit came up and everybody just got super vulnerable. And then here come these fucking judges, you know, looking at all this work and not taking any of this into can and just tearing it apart and it just made

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me pissed off and my friend to he was, he was another contestant he's was and we made friends he was like a graffiti guy, and he made an equally mediocre piece you know whatever, and they were just tearing them apart and was just like and it was just like

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I just got mad I just got fucking pissed about all of this shit and I gave this whole screen I don't remember how much of this made the edit, and I fucking accused them of a whole bunch of just being fucking not understanding you know like because he was crazy

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and this is where he gave me the famous stop the Star Wars line, you know, he had seen enough of my work to realize that it was incorporating appropriated pop culture iconography, and it was like, fuck that shit.

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This isn't art because of that, you know, stop the Star Wars and if I see it again I'm going to get medieval on your ass. And that was the moment I lost the game not because he said that, but because I was born, I was emotionally

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broken, but, um, because I, because I agreed with that.

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You know, it's like.

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That was my, that was my shit, you know, that was my shit. Like if he was, and yet, on the other hand, as an artist. That was always a thing in the back of my mind that I was worried about.

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Is my work good or do people just like it because it's Boba Fett, you know, like am I really doing anything here or people just like my shit because it's fake Star Wars stuff and it's funny.

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And that's always always always been something that's like created doubt in my mind about my, my, my artwork and my creativity.

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And he either instinctively figured that out or just landed on it. Coincidentally, and I had no defenses for it and you just shot that fucking arrow and boom. And instead of saying fuck you.

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This is what I do if you don't like it you can kick me off right now I said yes sir, because,

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A, like I said it was just a vulnerability and I didn't want to get kicked off the show to be honest with you I knew that no matter what happens like every second of screen time that I'm getting here is worth a lot, you know, and who knows when I'm going to be on TV again so I wanted to stretch it out

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and I think, but I think because I made that that sort of like compromise with myself with with with myself and with just with my own standards that I had already I had surrendered at that point.

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And I didn't get eliminated he eliminated they eliminated my friend twos on that episode and that part two. And then we're there to like 230 in the morning filming this crap right.

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It's fucking wasted. And then, you know, you don't know what's going to happen, the following day we get back to the thing every I'm upset about a whole bunch of shit I had no time to think about this a process this stuff.

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And then at 530 in the fucking morning. Simone DePurri comes and wakes us up and drives us out to the place where they print the New York Times out in Queens, and they give us a new challenge and I am not ready I'm going on three hours of sleep I'm hung over.

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I put through the wringer emotionally and now I just have to fucking get my shit together and do something completely different and unrelated couldn't do it.

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And I decided I'm not going to make my work, the way I usually make it. I'm going to try to please the judges and then it went, it was shit, I made shit.

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And like, I'm like, why am I still here I should have left, I should have got kicked off the show and didn't happen. And then so I made a terrible piece.

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And the same thing happened and I was on the bottom again and I was there till fucking two o'clock in the morning getting drunk. And fortunately my other friend by a day had made something that was just slightly worse than what I had made and he got eliminated.

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And that was, and then and then like and then the next day it's like okay you're going out to Brooklyn and now you're a street artist.

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And I still torture myself for this, because everybody was kind of rooting for me, you know, not maybe not that not the villains.

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But like everybody else, the producers, China Chow, like Simone de Puri, the other contestants wanted me to do not to lose, you know, in a pathetic miserable way and everyone knew I was struggling.

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And this should have been a fucking no brainer. You know, I'm from New York, you know, I know I'm in that world, like I should be able to ace this right.

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And they paired me up with this other woman named Sarah Kay, who's very nice, completely different type of artist was like a team challenge.

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And I have no I have no ideas I have no ideas I can't think of anything. I'm just bereft of I'm demoralized. I don't, I've lost track of I lost the fucking narrative and wound up just making a mediocre compromising piece that had nothing to do with my style.

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And I had the worst fucking critique of my life because standing there I didn't think the piece was that successful it's just like we took this paper on the wall and made this thing that looked like a maze and glued some wooden sticks to it and it just didn't look like anything.

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And, and like, and I was just so dial I was so like checked out with with what we're doing I wasn't even thinking of anything.

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And the guest judge was Lee Kenyones, who is famous old school graffiti artist he was one of the main protagonists in wild style, and, um, you know, New York legend, and like, I'm the New York guy, you know and here I am standing there, having to defend this piece that I thought was indefensible,

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and what what happened was, and this, this created so much trauma for me is that they always let the guest judge go first when they when it's time to tear down the bad work.

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Yeah, you know, Jesus. And so I'm standing there and I had some flimsy defense ready but what I had failed to notice is that there was already some graffiti on the wall that they gave us they had like eat there was four teams and each team had a wall

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like this big like 10 foot by something 20 by 10 foot wall in in Brooklyn and Dumbo Brooklyn.

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And there was a couple of tags on the wall. And the woman that I was working with, and it wasn't her fault because she didn't know she'd sort of covered up one of the tags with with the with the paper that we're putting on the wall.

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And now, I didn't even really notice that I was so caught up in everything I didn't really notice. And so I'm standing there and the pieces on the wall, and Lee looks right at me and says, yo, why'd you go over that tag.

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And I'm like, Oh fuck.

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Like, I'm a toy, I just, and I was like, you don't do that in graffiti. You know that's beef and graffiti. If somebody fucks if you go over another writer's shit.

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That's a violation, you know, and that's, and then that and then it's going to be some retaliation and it's just like, and as soon as he said that it was just, I was fucking done.

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I was like, my, I cannot go back to New York after this. I have just, it was not only I was such a bad thing that I went over someone's tag is just like I should have known that I should have caught that I shouldn't be standing there caught out there like that,

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you know, looking like a sucker on TV being the New York cool New York street Lower East Side guy. Thank God that didn't make it into the edit.

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But, you know, I gave some flimsy defense and then like they just tore the whole piece down and I couldn't just I couldn't, I had no defense. And I guess they were just got sick of me and it was my turn to go and I got eliminated.

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And, you know, got kicked off the show. And then,

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six months there's like six months between when you when it wraps and when it and when it airs and that you're not supposed to talk about it. So I'm just like,

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I got six months to live.

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And then, and then, then that show is going to come on.

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All my friends are going to start rooting for me. And then I'm going to suffer this just complete defeat of my credibility.

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I'm going to be destroyed on television and my career will be over. And I couldn't tell anybody. And I keep it to myself for fucking six months and I'm just like, falling apart inside just thinking like everything I created just got destroyed there.

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I mean, I guess I must have.

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Ultimately, none of this turned out to be true. But in my mind it was and especially I couldn't talk about it. I just like it just festered in there. And then like around, you know, a month before the show is going to come on, they start doing the commercials and the promos.

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And I'm seeing myself on TV and on commercials and everybody's hearing about it and everybody in the toy community is like, oh, this is great. You know, finally one of our people is like really getting the recognition they deserve.

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And oh, I bet you killed it on that show. You probably win. Right. And everyone was like, yeah, I can't wait to see this. And like the first couple of episodes finally come out.

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And like even though I wasn't like killing it, you know, with the judges, like the way it was edited, I came across very sympathetically and was working for me and I was, you know, getting all this press and all this attention and sales and all this shit.

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And I'm just like quietly just dreading this when the hammer is going to fucking drop. And then and I was had a fucking nervous breakdown, you know, because like it was like I'm watching the complete like deconstruction of a self.

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You know, like this whole self that I created is getting torn apart and then they find that there's nothing under there but just like a sad pathetic man.

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But to my surprise, when the episode with the little kid came out, everybody liked that one. Yeah. That's when people started liking me more.

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You know, and and and then I noticed on every TV show that I've ever been on, it's the same arc. Here's a guy that seems like this kind of jerk and we can't figure him out.

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He's got this fucking attitude and then something humanizing happens. And then it helps you understand why he had that attitude in the first place.

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And then you and then you wind up liking him. And I know and I didn't even on the dating game, you know, it came out like a fucking, you know, smarmy asshole and wound up getting a big aww, you know, at the end, you know, because I said something was like I didn't plan this out.

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So nothing bad actually happened. You know, by the time I got eliminated, thank God they left that little piece about the graffiti tag off there.

318
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And I guess somebody in the editing room must have liked me because they did the best they could to make it look like an injustice that I got kicked off the show.

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And one thing Jerry Saltz said, you know, that made sense is like every artist should experience some sort of great public failure, you know, to inoculate yourself against self doubt and criticism and it was like so worked out great.

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Nobody gave a shit about me losing no one gave a fuck. All my anxieties were for nothing. And then I had a whole street art campaign ready to go, where I just put up these posters all over the city you just like the suck word is a fraud, you know, and I just owned it, you know, I just fucking owned it.

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And then he made a whole bunch of action figures about it, sold a shitload of them. I made an action action figures of Jerry Saltz and all that shit. I managed to milk the fuck out of it forever. And we're not forever for a long period of time and everything was fucking fine.

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And then, um, I was like convinced that now, life is going to be different. Everything's going to be different now. And like I'm on the way up and like I don't have to make these stupid fucking toys anymore and I'm going to be a TV star and it's like the following

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year I got offered another show on Bravo as a as like a plot device for the show called Gallery Girl, which was just like, have you ever watched that or no, it's ridiculous ridiculous show that they made, I guess what they were attempting to do was do this thing like

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though the real lot real wives of the Lower East Side. So it's basically like they find these like privileged white girls. Yeah, that want to work in the art world. And they follow them around as they try to get hired by art galleries or run their own art gallery or

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whatever. And I guess this when they were making the show, they were still kind of buzzing on the on work of art, which ultimately got canceled because because didn't get good ratings. But like, it really seemed like Bravo wanted to do something with me, you know, because I was

326
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always seemed to be the breakout star, you know, every every reality show new reality show cast always has this breakout star thing and and Sarah Jessica Parker was jerking my dick on it on Andy Cohen show I got to go on Andy Cohen show and show my toys.

327
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And then I got invited to be on the show called Gallery Girl, and it was a great opportunity to sort of like reef re burnish my image because there was these two girls that had this gallery a few blocks from my studio and I guess they were running out of story for these

328
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girls, you know, like they weren't doing anything and they had no material, except that the gallery wasn't making any money and they were going broke so they're just like, they fudged it a little bit to sort of strongly convince them that maybe they should ask some guy named the suck

329
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guy, you know who just got on the cover of the fucking village voice, because of the TV show to do a show there. So they came to my studio and we came up with this whole thing and they were like this is what during Occupy Wall Street, and we were going to do this

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thing was going to be like Occupy Wall Street meets Transformers. And, you know, the and then we did this whole thing in the in the gallery. This is also on my website if you want to watch it I took the episode, and I chopped out all the parts that I wasn't in, and

331
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just made it, you know the stuck the suck Lord story. Yeah. And it's fucking hilarious and again it's the same thing. These two girls are very dubious about letting this sort of sleazy grungy little, you know, street rat toy weirdo into their very nice fancy space to do act

332
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act transformers stuff and pack it with geeks what the fuck, and then I made them several thousand dollars and they paid their rent and they paid their rent. And so at the end of the episode they wound up loving me.

333
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And that was that, and then I was like okay great then all these other offers started coming in.

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And then we had a development deal with this television, other television network and they were going to do a support vehicle and like, put all this effort into it. And then, and like, thought like okay that's it, I'm a TV star now.

335
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I'm gonna, I'm gonna just ride this out and fuck toys and fuck everybody and I don't want to ever touch a fucking action figure again for the rest of my life.

336
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And then, the deal got taken away I got rugged. For whatever reason, they decided. They didn't want to spend any money on it after I signed the deal and they gas me up and told me you know I have this whole manifesto on their website about we've stick

337
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by our partners and blah blah blah for some reason they just inexplicable reason. They decided to not make my show or not develop my show because they wanted to make a show about football.

338
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Oh, and then football. Yeah. And then, since I can the beginning of 2013 and like I had invested so much of myself into this idea that I was going to be a TV star, and that I was going to, you know, finally get some money and finally like go somewhere in life.

339
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And then it dried up, and then it's like a year after the everything had aired, people forgot about it, you know, nobody was talking about it the show wasn't playing anymore life went on and I was standing there with nothing.

340
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And I had to go back to the toy game. And I just couldn't, like I would even even though I felt like I had gotten away with an avoided like a huge personal catastrophe. I never really got over the fact that my mask had been removed, you know, metaphorically

341
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speaking, let's talk about. So, something that's interesting is you've used the word trauma twice. So, which to have to go in as a supervillain. And all of a sudden, people realize or have the potential to realize that that's not.

342
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You're not that supervillain anymore but then also to have people.

343
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You, there's this dichotomy right, because on the back of your action figures it's you're an asshole for buying this and like, here's my box of garbage and this is my shit you own it now that type of stuff.

344
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But then, when people like Jerry are looking at you and trying to destroy you. And they're calling your stuff shit, like, why does it, what is that can you explain that because for you, it's shit for them when they call it shit it's like, oh, that's trauma now.

345
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:09,000
Well, no, I mean this entry great question, I mean, for me it was always ironic because I knew I made things that on the surface looked crappy.

346
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But I, but the real, we are an asshole for buying this was always meant to be an inside joke, you know, because I actually really really appreciated when people bought it.

347
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And it's just more like if you can read that and laugh at it, you get what I'm trying to say here is that inside of this like seemingly crappy looking action figure, it's actually wrought and infused with personal meaning and commentary and context and content

348
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that transcends at least this is my imagination, transcends the piece itself, the piece itself is almost just like a suggestion of a greater, you know, idea and concept and it's like, the thing is in that case, I'm in control there, you know it's like I'm dictating this is what it looks like.

349
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This is how you're going to receive it. I'm in charge, you know, and that and I'm and the power sits with me, you know, and that was all that had been hard wrought to be able to do that because you know if you've listened to the other episodes of this show I was a vulnerable person

350
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as a child and it took me a long time to build up this sort of armor around myself, where I could actually pull something like that off, you know where I actually had the confidence to like provoke people and to like take a stand and do something controversial and act as a

351
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lightning rod and be able to weather it and master it and use it for my own nefarious purposes and enrich myself off of it. That worked for me because I had control of it.

352
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And you only saw the vulnerabilities if I wanted you to. And what unnerved me or unmanned me about being on the show is like I had lost that control, you know, like I was showing, I was losing my power or losing control of the narrative, and I couldn't

353
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stop it and like, and that was what was disturbing to me, you know that like I was like it was being taken from me or like that like it was slipping away and I wasn't the story and the events were getting ahead of my mastery, you know, and it's happening

354
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in public. And now now that the armor is gone. My enemies, I have a clean shot at me and it was just like, it was just like, I just felt naked. Yeah, you know, I just felt naked on TV. And like I was able to claw it back and rebuild it, you know, because

355
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:39,000
fortunately, it isn't a, it isn't really a persona. It's just, it's just the end product of having an intact strong and healthy ego, you know that allows me to do that self I never ever considered my persona to really be a persona, like, Stephen Colbert

356
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:58,000
when he when he did his original show. That was a persona that's an act that you turn on, and you're sort of playing as different character. For me, it's just like this is just me being who I really want to be. I'm not really acting here I'm just like I've created a venue for me to be able to just like, be my

357
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own raw, unvarnished self and just like, but so losing that control is what I what felt traumatic to me, and I felt like all everything I had built up had been destroyed, and that it wasn't by my design, and it stressed me the fuck out because all my phone you know I'm

358
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sensitive and vulnerable and emotional, and I felt like that had all been laid bare and it was, and it was, it was, I didn't like it. Yeah, and then, as you talk about building this armor, and then things were out of your control and being stripped from you.

359
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:45,000
It seems like because we've talked about Star Wars and action figures like all through the episodes, and like when you were a kid that was your shit like you knew action figures and then growing up, you kept returning.

360
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And so, when that asshole says like, stop this Star Wars shit is that like not only a crack in the armor but that's like peeling it open as well.

361
00:53:56,000 --> 00:54:02,000
Well, I mean maybe I think it was just,

362
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:07,000
like I said before I always was completely unsure.

363
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If that is somewhere underneath all of it I was, I was a fraud, and that it wasn't like that didn't.

364
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That's what I'm curious to my eyes right there. That's a that's a statement that is like that everyone needs to live by. Sometimes I believe like we go through life trying to figure out are we a fraud.

365
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:33,000
Right. Yeah, I mean it's imposter syndrome I think every creative person goes through that in fact it's the undoing of a lot of people.

366
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I mean I wonder why artists are so unwell, most of the time is just because you have this whole extra thing that you have to worry about and it's like feels beyond, you know, beyond your control and it's like so contingent on validation from others.

367
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:55,000
Yeah, you know, and sometimes people don't get it and sometimes they get all the validation in the world but they can't figure out how to self validate.

368
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And, and it's like sometimes you get that, you know, it, if people are worshiping you as a great genius and then you yourself feel like a miserable piece of shit that that that that that sort of dissonance between your public self and your private self

369
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:32,000
really fuck you up. But so I don't think saying stop the Star Wars on disarmed me I was already disarmed because I felt like just being with that kid just like made me forget, you know, just change my priorities and then he was able to just, you know, lob lob all this

370
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shit against me and just like I had no, it wasn't bounced it there was no armor for to bounce off. So, but I got my revenge on Jerry salts, many many times over.

371
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You know, I have made so much money satirizing him and making action figures I mean, off camera he's a fine guy, you know, he was cool with me making figures of every making endless action figures of him and playing with his image and he didn't ask for anything

372
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in return, he would, he signed a bunch of the packaging that I made he never fully understood what I was doing I mean I think to this day he still doesn't really get action figures, but every once in a while when he's having a slow news day he'll post something I did

373
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of him, and I was wind up getting like an extra thousand followers or whatever so it's fine. I want I want I ultimately I want, but, but nevertheless it's just like, I did have to regress, you know, because like after you know when I didn't when when my TV career

374
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was launched. I had to go back to doing the same old thing, but I wasn't the same person anymore. You know, it just like felt like that process had changed and I couldn't just go back and turn it on again like I felt like too much had happened that like

375
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I've already revealed myself and I just don't feel it I can't bring I can't feel it. And then like and then a bunch of other shitty things happen like I told you, like this is like me and dove tried to scale the business, and it didn't work and

376
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I ended up making like a lot of product that didn't resonate and didn't sell, and I fell on some hard times financially, and then guys like killer bootlegs were coming in and, you know, mixing shit up and like I was like at a low point in my creativity and these guys

377
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were like really taking away my audience and taking away my collectors and I was just like one thing after another.

378
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And then I lost my studio lost my relationship and just like I was just like sort of out out there, you know, and I wound up moving into another studio, which was significantly more expensive and I'm still there now and it's still expensive.

379
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I'm still living in this sort of post work of art world where it's just like, you know, the money part got harder because my overhead went up. And then, right around that time when like I started to really get nervous about about the future.

380
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I heard this podcast called adventures in design. Do you know that, and Huck Gee was on it is a Huck Gee or Huck Gee.

381
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Huck Gee and we all know who he is. I mean, he was a big time kid robot guy, you know, and he was sweeping the floor with all his custom dunnies and monies and he was just like always winning all the designer tour awards I've never won a single fucking

382
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thing in my life but you know he's getting all these accolades. And, you know, when I was in the, in the throes of my poverty and my, my anger and my frustration and my sort of disillusionment from not getting a TV career and just like, and then he goes on this

383
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podcast, and he just confesses I owe quarter million dollars in taxes and I'm broke and I have no idea what the fuck I'm doing and I'm fucked. And like I felt bad for him but I'm like, I appreciated that he was willing to reveal that.

384
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And then, and that, you know, it was just like, you know, cautionary tale for other creatives you know like don't don't mistake the image for what's going on behind the scene. And then I really leaned into that and I started making myself much more vulnerable.

385
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You know like I just sort of stopped trying to be a supervillain, and I started my own podcast called the suck hour where I just like, put all my dirty laundry out there and I processed my feelings and I went through all this shit and I just sort of changed my, my, my

386
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my artwork became less about the suck Lord, and it came be more about like action figures like I found a new passion, you know, just trying to figure out like, all right, I'm stuck making action figures like, what can I do with them and how do I take the

387
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focus off myself and just sort of play with the medium and I spent, you know, like 10 years like just figuring new things out and trying different stuff and sort of trying to push, push the medium I mean now you can see many of my innovations have been

388
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appropriated by many many people. Yeah, you know, I mean I mean just the whole concept of just like anything can be an action figure and, you know, like, what can you use what can you say with it.

389
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And, and whatever I, I mean is, is, it might not have been as sexy.

390
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But that's, that's what that's where I that's where I wound up.

391
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:30,000
And now, it seems like something's going to change again, because I did have one more television encounter.

392
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When I got cast on the Goldberg's, and that was decidedly different because it wasn't on.

393
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:50,000
It wasn't a reality show, it was a scripted show. And apparently, Adam Goldberg the guy that created that show is a big fan of bootleg toys and he collects a lot of them.

394
01:00:50,000 --> 01:01:08,000
And he always whenever he gets the opportunity to slip them into the background, you know, the show takes place in like the 80s. So, um, he, he always likes that like I guess dead greedy got like his beastie droids figure in there and you know which made his

395
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life and that stuff and so I guess he thought well it's pretty funny, putting all these Easter eggs in the show why don't we just cram in the ultimate Easter egg and put a sock Lord himself in there.

396
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:29,000
So I had a cameo was like a 32nd scene is like a disgruntled and spiteful Toys R Us employee. Yeah. And that was so great.

397
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:43,000
You know, I love being on set, and just, it's so fun to do that shit and too bad it was only for that one day, but it's great because I still get royalty checks for that you don't get paid to be on reality TV.

398
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:57,000
Okay, didn't get paid to be on work of art, and there's no, no royalties but because if it's a scripted show you do I had to join sag to get to get on there so every like three or four months I get like a check for like $16 or

399
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:10,000
$18 or whatever. It was funny, because it had a little bit. Whoever scripted it I don't fucking know but it had your personality or what I envision you saying, because I think it was around Rock Lords.

400
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Yeah, and you were like in the show it was like, Oh, you should get one of these, and the kid was like, Oh yeah I'll take him you're like to fucking bet I bought them all or something like that.

401
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:36,000
So what is something I envisioned you saying. Well, he cast me as a, as a villain which I appreciated that because, I mean, it's just been revealed and this has always been the challenge you know in the last decade since I was on that show is just

402
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:56,000
I've had to really square my, my, my, my, the way I identify as a villain with like how I actually am as a person and it's never it hasn't always been like intellectually coherent, and, you know, I was really hoping that the book of Boba Fett would would give

403
01:02:56,000 --> 01:03:16,000
me clues. Yeah, and it did. Believe it or not, even though I thought the show as a whole was really bad. It had an, it had enough material in there to help to sustain the suck Lord mythology, and how, you know, it's possible to remain of a villain

404
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:29,000
but still grow, you know, and still be sympathetic and relatable because really only reason I ever wanted to be a super villain in the first place is because I felt vulnerable, and I felt vulnerable to hurts.

405
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:45,000
I felt like I had been hurt and I felt like I didn't have quite the tools to assert myself in a very aggressive and callous and unforgiving world and I figured like going out into this world as a, as a, as a gentle kind soul.

406
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I needed to work, and like I need to build this part of myself up.

407
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And, and I did.

408
01:03:52,000 --> 01:04:03,000
And then, and then when it when it got removed. You know I didn't know if I could go back to it but you can because if you really think about it. Look at a guy like Dr. Doom right.

409
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:06,000
Yeah, he loses all the time.

410
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:21,000
He doesn't lose. And yet they never, and then they double down on it and come back and with a better scheme or a better plan. And, you know, it's like as long as I'm going to be a person out here trying to do capitalism and at the same time like per per se pursue

411
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:34,000
like a ridiculous creative vision. You know I have to be that person because it's also not, I'm not going to make it. So, seeing Boba Fett.

412
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:50,000
I was in touch with a part of himself that he didn't know was there that was undeveloped and losing his armor, and having to walk around unarmored for a long time and having to just like play by the rules of the world as a regular guy, you know when he says that when

413
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she's like why don't you go and just ask for your ship back and he's like I'm more persuasive with my armor, you know, and like if I just go in there like this.

414
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I'm like, I'm not going to be a party. And I felt I felt that you know and I understood why he needed the armor and how it's not a crutch, and how he's just sort of had a different relationship with the armor where he is now okay taking off the helmet

415
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and stuff like that and how he's still more than willing to just exact revenge violence revenge on people that wrong him but it's like he sort of became, you know, like, the whole part was like, you know where he, you know, you can only go so far without

416
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:44,000
a tribe thing all those things seem to be things that I that I need to learn and grow and you know just being this one man show and just like thinking you've got everything figured out and cutting yourself off and making yourself impervious only gets you so far.

417
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:59,000
And so just like being able to like walk that line was like I'm going to still be the criminal boss but I'm going to be like a decent criminal boss. You know, I got something out of that and also just this whole thing in the back the chamber because like, you know, like, all this vulnerability

418
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:14,000
shit has been good for me you know if I've gone to therapy I've let people see my stuff my, my weaknesses and like I've, you know, I've spent all this time sleeping and doing, doing self care and mental health and therapy and all this crap.

419
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:30,000
And, and like, after a while it's like all right, you got to get out of the back the tank now and put on your helmet and get into the action again. It's like, if you're not going to keep going then then stay there but if you're going to keep going then go, you know,

420
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:49,000
you know, and so like I was able to extract enough of that from the show to like keep my, my, my suck word persona going for a little bit longer. And now, I guess the bear, you know, the real question is like what you know what, what now, you know, like, what now.

421
01:06:49,000 --> 01:07:00,000
Yeah, you know, I, I thought I always loved hearing you compare yourself to Boba Fett.

422
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:03,000
And as I watched it.

423
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I mean regardless of how I felt about it is what it is, but as I watched it, I, like as he gets his armor back, and he goes into the city he's like, putting these fires out all over the city, getting shit in order.

424
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:23,000
Trying to just fucking maintain what's happening.

425
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:29,000
And that's as we've gone through your story up until this point.

426
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:42,000
What it feels like as that portion of the story in the book Boba Fett, like personifies or as a perfect example of what you kind of went through.

427
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:58,000
And now we're waiting for season two, like you, you, you got this armor back you started learning like shit I shouldn't have like done certain things. You've put out these fires and now you're just maintaining this empire of what you're trying to do.

428
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:05,000
And now we're just sitting and waiting for like, okay, what is book to fucking look like for you.

429
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:14,000
That's a great question. And I think we sort of sketch this out that we were going to, that was going to be like the last episode. Yep.

430
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:22,000
So I think we'll definitely cover that because something definitely needs to change and it's going to change whether I want it to or not.

431
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:41,000
And just maintaining isn't a story. No, and in a lot of ways I do kind of feel like I'm there I'm at that point with my figure making. And I could maintain it forever but it's, I don't find it interesting, and I don't think the audience really finds it all that interesting.

432
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:53,000
So, you know, like if you really want to keep going and you really want there to be a season two. You get you better get some good writers in there. Well here, here's a fear.

433
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:59,000
I mean, you're older you got more wisdom, a fear that was like bread into me when I was younger.

434
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:09,000
Have you ever heard of the book waiting for good though. Of course. Yeah, it's a play. Yeah, so we were forced to read this, the play over and over again.

435
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:15,000
And I couldn't understand why and then finally teacher mindset it's the play where nothing happens twice.

436
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:18,000
Don't let your life be that.

437
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:27,000
And so I think you've got a good point, like maintaining no longer is a good story. What happens now.

438
01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:35,000
Right, and I think, I mean it's just interesting that you bring that up because in a way it's just like,

439
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:43,000
there's a path that obviously the two protagonists there's a passivity there, you know they are not there's no act they're not taking action.

440
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:59,000
They're waiting to react to something that never happens. And if you want to, if you I mean that's what this, like you know fortune favors the bold as they say, you know, like you got to get off the goddamn bench and go find fucking good.

441
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:06,000
If it's that important to you, you know, instead of just waiting for him to show up. Right, that is what the play is about right.

442
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:19,000
There's more to it but yeah I forgot what it was about I hated it when I read it I found it so boring but, you know, well, let's just unpack that for a minute, nothing happens twice what is that what do you mean.

443
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:24,000
So, like, the instances of nothing happening.

444
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:36,000
Like there wasn't, there's not like a rise and fall there's not a huge, like, nothing comes from it, like if the play didn't exist like if act two didn't exist you wouldn't miss out on act one.

445
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:43,000
Right. And so, I think, I don't know like one of my favorite movies.

446
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:56,000
One of my favorite movies of all time is called the quarrel, and the entire movie is just a conversation between two people. Nothing is resolved nothing is started, like it's just, but the.

447
01:10:56,000 --> 01:11:00,000
There is a beauty in the steadiness of it.

448
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:03,000
And so I think that, I don't know.

449
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:18,000
I mean the thing is some of this stuff doesn't really have an answer. Yeah, you know, like talking about God you're never going to come to a definitive conclusion that you can live by for the rest of your life it's a process of asking the questions

450
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:32,000
is the thing. Right, you know, and it's just like, it's never going to be solved, I mean, and I guess I'm fortunate in life that I've, it feels like I'm in a story, you know, and that like it nothing.

451
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:41,000
Nothing really truly works, you know, like they're always always have to do something else that always has to be more there always has to be more, you know, you always has to.

452
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:50,000
You don't come to any definitive things I will give this is the thing now, and it's, it's solved. You know it just keeps going and going and going.

453
01:11:50,000 --> 01:12:06,000
And then, hopefully, hopefully it has some sort of you could take something away from it but I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. Like, I get I get depressed sometimes when I feel like my, my life.

454
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:20,000
Like, some interesting things happen to me and I'm like the only person there. And I'm like, wow, this should have been on TV, you know, or this would have been such an interesting story or what are the what a spectacle I just participated in and I didn't record

455
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:36,000
it and that sucks. And then I realized that I'm the audience.

456
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:52,000
And I'm like, I can't communicate to other people is just a filtered fragment of what is really there. And you just can't you just can't like being an artist being a creative person you're lucky. If you get one tenth of your vision out to one tenth of the people

457
01:12:52,000 --> 01:13:02,000
you know and it's just like and everything else is just like lost, it's lost to the, you know, to history and all it just goes in the Akashic records and no one sees it and no one knows about it.

458
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:06,000
And so while I'm having these moments.

459
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:15,000
I'm just like, well, I'm here. And I'm not going to take ruin this moment for myself because I don't have an audience. I'll be the audience. And this is awesome.

460
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:19,000
You know, this is awesome. You know the last couple of years I spent a lot of time alone.

461
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:38,000
And that to me has been one of the greatest, like, gifts that I've sort of uncovered in myself in my mid middle life is that how content I am to be alone with my own thoughts, and how I never get bored.

462
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:54,000
I can always entertain myself with some activity or just, I could just sit there and stare at the wall. And the shit going on in my head is endlessly fascinating, you know a lot a lot of people got fucked up during COVID, you know, because suddenly

463
01:13:54,000 --> 01:14:09,000
all the externals were taken away. And then they were just had to contend what was going on inside of themselves and be alone and be in their own solitude. And a lot of people couldn't handle it and I was like, quite relieved to find that that part of myself was still

464
01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:12,000
intact and I feel like if you have that.

465
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:26,000
Everything else can happen after that you know you can you can move, you can move from that is like as long as your inner life is intact, everything springs from the inside and everything comes from the subconscious everything starts as a thought before it becomes manifest

466
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:39,000
in the world. And, you know, making, making the toys is a way is like a weird symbolic way of taking something intangible and making it tangible and having it represent a thought.

467
01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:46,000
And then you can make it manifest in the world and another person can get that thought in their mind too just by this stupid piece of plastic.

468
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:34,000
New from Toys on Tap. Toys on Tap. Next episode. It's great. It's amazing. You're going to want to listen to it. It's not right now though you're going to have to wait till the next episode to listen to it. Oh, what's that? The next one. Cool. Toys on Tap. Toys on Tap. The next one's going to be good too, so stay tuned and listen to that. Toys on Tap. Awesome.