Welcome to Spiralling, the podcast where guests
share the problems, insecurities and festering
little brain worms that they just can't get out
of their heads. I'm Zara Gladman. I'm not a therapist,
but people like to tell me their problems and
I like to record them for content. Together,
we'll try to get to the bottom of what's really
going on and with any luck, stop spiralling.
Let's go! Hello! Welcome to episode two of Spiralling.
We officially have more than one episode which
means we are a legit podcast now, I would say.
Thank you so much for the really lovely responses
to episode one and an even bigger thanks if you've
come back for episode two it's really feeding
my sense of self -worth so i appreciate that
i was going to record today's episode from the
highlands because i'm going to be in sky i'm
going to be in the area up and around malague
so that's where i'll be as you're listening to
this however i don't know where i'm staying i
don't know the wi -fi situation and i can't be
arsed lugging my laptop with me. So I've decided
to play it safe and record this in Glasgow before
I head off tomorrow morning. But as I said, if
you're listening to this now, I am somewhere
in that vicinity doing God knows what. It's for
that TV project that I mentioned before, which
is a lot of fun. Evelyn Hollow is in it as well.
If you know her, she is actually a podcasting
icon and a total ledge. So shout out to Evelyn.
What else have I been up to? I've been watching
the Dallas, Texas Cowboy Cheerleader documentary
series. I've got one episode left to go. If you
don't know it, highly recommend. So well made,
very compelling, beautiful cinematography. Speaking
of cinematography, today's guest is a filmmaker,
Martin Clark. I've known Martin for a number
of years. I met him originally through my partner,
but as it turns out, I have loads of mutual friends.
He's very well known, I would say, in Glasgow.
He's very funny, great company, and he's very
discerning when it comes to music and art and
film. So I really enjoy talking to him and I'm
sure you will as well. Martin is finishing up
his first feature film called Public House. And
from what I've seen of it, The Little Tasters
Online, it looks excellent. So I'm really looking
forward to when that comes out. And you'll hear
in our conversation, we do touch on it a wee
bit, and Martin's creative process. The film
is filmed in a pub in Glasgow Southside, so I'm
sure that'll be of interest to some people listening.
Before I hand over to Martin, a reminder, I am
doing The Fringe one day only. Still tickets
available. Would be great to see you there on
the 12th of August at the Cabaret Voltaire with
Monkey Barrow. Okay, let's spiral. Okay, anyway,
welcome Martin to the podcast. Hello. Have you
done a podcast before? No, I haven't actually.
Have you not? Wow. Yeah, I'm very excited. Oh
my God. I'm quite new to podcasts in terms of
making a podcast, but I've been on a lot of podcasts
and I've been a lot of, I think all of them have
been video podcasts, mostly. I think there's
one that wasn't. And I can see why people...
record it, you know, to create clips and like
promote it and stuff. But the clips then end
up on social media and then sometimes things
are taken out of context or you say stuff that
you regret. I don't really know where I'm going
with this. Be comfortable and don't worry about
what you're going to say because it's just going
to be audio. One of the things I'm most worried
about is saying something that I regret. So thanks
for reminding me of that. Yeah, let's try and
not get cancelled. I trust you in the edit. For
people that don't know you, you are a filmmaker,
correct? Yes. I've seen a couple of your films.
I actually re -watched Jealous Alan. I did homework
ahead of today. It's very funny still. Thanks.
But for people that don't know your films, how
would you describe the work that you do? I would
say I try to make films that are kind of poetic
realism, I would say. So I think when I first
started making films, I was, you know, always...
leaning into the comedy and trying to make people
laugh. But as I've gone on, I've discovered that
actually you should actually concentrate on all
the other emotions and the comedy will just come.
It's just better for the writing and you make
a better film at the end of the day. My favourite
comedy isn't just pure gags anyway and you've
got a bit of pathos or... Laughing and crying.
Laughing and crying, that's the ultimate thing.
Or even, you know, both at the same time, which
is the ultimate. You're working on a film just
now, aren't you? Yeah, almost finished it, yeah.
Almost finished. So what stage, what are you
up to at the moment with it? It's called Public
House and we've been making it for the past three
years and we're at the post -production stage.
So the edit is locked in and we're working on
the sound design and the grading and finishing
up the music. Exciting. So it's Public House.
It's set in a pub, isn't it? Yeah, it's set in
Heritage Bar and Pollockshaws Road in the South
Side. And was that a pub that you went to before
you decided to make the film? Yeah, I knew the
pub. It's a really beautiful pub. It's very small
and self -contained. But basically one of the
actresses that is in Jealous Alan, Alicia Welsh,
her grandfather is Mickey Joe Herity, hence the
name MJ Herity. And her mum still runs the pub
and she still works in the pub. So that was the
connection of how we started filming in there.
I know a little bit about the film. I've supported
your crowdfunder to help with the distribution
and stuff. But what's the pitch for the film
then? Give us an idea of what it's about. Yeah,
it's a series of... Alicia, she plays a landlady,
so she's in more scenes than anyone else. But
it is a sequence of vignettes where some characters
repeat and are... back and out a few times, but
some characters are just in for a single scene.
So it's just different characters coming and
going, or just there, just like real life in
a pub. So your films, you say they're kind of,
what was that term that you used, the realism
term? Poetic realism. Poetic realism. So where
does the realism come from? Is it personal experiences
that you're putting into your writing, or is
it... things that you've observed outside of
yourself? Both of those things. Yeah, both of
those things. Yeah, I think if you just start
with the emotion, if you start with the emotion
and then think of a character, or you can think
of a character first is one of the best ways
to do it. Think of a character first and then
put them in a situation and ask yourself how
they feel about it and then write that and then
bring someone else in and see if they feel the
same thing or they feel the opposite thing. It's
easier if they're... opposite even in a very
subtle way because um and then you can get a
little bit of conflict in some ways i'm not mad
keen on like big masses of conflict and stuff
about it's just little little disagreements or
different ways of thinking and what you always
need to remember is i guess this is also a realist
part is like when people are actually in conversation
they're very rarely saying what they actually
mean you always remember that and that's a really
good note to give actors as well as words are
just words but so subtext is really key as well
to what i'm trying to do especially in scotland
how is it directing actors i've never really
done much of that you know so you've got a rapport
with them are you you know how did you find these
actors in the first place a lot of them i worked
with before and some of them i really admired
their work and i wrote a scene with particularly
with them in mind or i had an idea for a character
or there was some other writers on the film as
well so who wrote scenes So when they wrote the
scenes, I had an idea for an actor then. So when
I went to the actor, I was like, this is for
you. Actors love that. And have you never thought
about putting yourself in any of your films or
have you ever done that? I am in it, but I'm
just an extra. I'm just an extra in it. I don't
have any spoken words in it. Maybe one day we'll
see if somebody, you know, phones in sick or
something. This is a podcast about feeling anxious
and spiraling and overthinking. You don't strike
me as someone who's much of a warrior. Are you
a warrior? Yes. You are. You're just someone
who pushes it deep down. Yes. So it's not noticeable.
Yeah, I suppose so, but I definitely am. But
that's so interesting you say that because I
thought I did show it. But maybe not. I don't
know. You just seem quite relaxed to me. Anytime
I've met you, you just seem quite chilled out.
But maybe not. Maybe if I spoke to other people,
they would disagree. Yeah, I think I do come
across as that. But I guess you make the decision
in those situations, you know, when it's a social
situation, that that's what you're going to do.
But work situations, I mean, I think it's the
same with anybody that's working in... the creative
industry, try to be creative or do anything whatsoever,
it's always difficult. I just watched a rough
cut of the documentary about Thomas Joshua Cooper
yesterday morning. And he was a teacher of mine
at art school and a hero of mine, to be honest.
And he said a great line in the film, which is,
the thing I worry about most is self -delusion
above all else. is that marissa murdoch's film
yeah yeah yeah and i just thought i laughed i
think it was only one of the cinema that laughed
but i really laughed at that because i just thought
it was just such a brilliant thing to say and
just so honest you know it's like it's like because
at the end of the day there has to be an element
of self -delusion if you're going to create anything
i think it's so true that sometimes i feel like
i need to be more deluded in order to get stuff
done because even just this like buying podcast
cast equipment and like setting up a sort of
whatever this is a little studio it does feel
a bit cringe in a way like what you're trying
to do but you know that everything starts that
way doesn't it yeah of course definitely and
also you have to um and it's not it's something
you learn you have to learn quite young it's
just because you make something a bit shit doesn't
make you a bit shit but that's you don't stop
learning that you have to you have to keep reminding
yourself that basically for the rest of your
entire life yeah i guess that's the danger and
if you surround yourself with people that will
bring you down back down and keep you right do
you have that do you have people that you share
stuff with that are going to be honest and yeah
i think so yeah yeah yeah i think i do have that
but then even that though is still it's still
it's still different you still never really you
can only really go with your own choice at the
end of the day yeah That's true. You can ask
even like the most critical people that you know
and who will tell the truth. Will it still really
be the truth? I don't know. You can only really
go with eventually it comes down to it. You have
to make the decision and you can get advice on
that, but you just have to really look into yourself
and really think, am I enjoying this or not?
Am I confident enough to show this to people?
Yeah. Or not? You can also just ask. as many
people as you can until they give you the answer
that you want to hear. Which I used to do quite
a lot of. Yeah. Like, should I send this text?
And everyone's like, no. Yeah. But you just keep
asking, find someone else who's also deluded.
Yeah. I mean, I think when I first started writing
scripts, because I made documentaries at first,
and when I first started writing and writing
scripts, I was like chucking them about willy
-nilly for everyone to read. And I realise now
that was a big mistake because, you know, I should
have waited first till I was happy to share it.
Right, okay. I think my insecurity was feeling
I needed feedback before I went any further.
I needed someone to say, hey, this is great.
I mean, I knew myself it wasn't good, so you
just have to wait. Do I think this is good? It's
so hard if you're writing on your own as well
and you don't have anyone to bounce off. But
of course, nowadays people have chat GPT. Yeah,
I've never used that. I think the whole thing
about it is it's really sycophantic. So if you
did share something with it, it would probably
be like, that's brilliant. Send it off. Oh, really?
I don't even know how to work it. Have you not
used it at all? No. Oh, that's good. It is evil.
Yeah. I mean, it scared me right from day one,
actually, when I first saw things like photographs
of bars in Glasgow in the 80s. And I was like,
wow. why have I never seen these photographs
before? And then somebody said it was AI and
I was really confused by the whole thing. It
is so upsetting when that happens and you're
really excited as well to see something like
that. And it's just not real. And then that was
before even all the text stuff and the writing
stuff. But yeah, so I'm just wondering if I can
just get away with never engaging with it ever.
Well, I think there's the illusion of choice
now and whether you're trying to go to the bank
or you're doing anything these days, chances
are you might be speaking to some kind of...
AI bot. Yeah, and well, I know it's in Google,
it comes up. Yeah, well, that, yeah, exactly.
So I am using it. You are, unfortunately, it's
the first thing it summarises, it's really annoying.
And often it's not, like, accurate either. Yeah,
yeah, exactly, exactly. Especially when you're,
you know, self -diagnosing something. Yeah, which
is the main thing. Which I never do. No. Speaking
of anxiety. Anxiety. So, You've brought with
you today a spiral for us to discuss. Would you
like to share what that is? Yeah, I guess it's
already connected a little bit to what we're
talking about. I guess it's to do with status
and age and being a late developer and peers.
I find all these things really confusing, like
about who are your peers? I don't know who my
peers are. Is this in a creative context, not
a personal context? Not a personal context. But
even it's kind of linked in that that's also
the thing about the creative world. It's all
linked with friendships and things like that.
It's hard to kind of disassociate them from each
other. But I guess it's a lot to do with status
and whether or not you feel that you are the
thing you want to be still. So that is constantly...
I can't remember. I was maybe in my 30s. When
I first started to look to see what age people
were. Oh, yeah, I like doing that. I like doing
that as well. And I have never stopped. So it's
been 20 years. Shall we cycle back then to how
you've come to be making films now and how you
got here? So where did you grow up? So I grew
up in a village called Caldercrooks, which is
just outside Airdrie, which is a... is my mum's
good friend, Liz, who sadly passed away a few
years ago, called it the arsehole of Scotland.
Oh, lovely. So it's kind of like betwixt the
bum cheeks of Glasgow and Edinburgh. Right. And
that kind of no man's land area of like North
Lanarkshire, West Lothian, you know, old kind
of like mining. towns kind of thing so it's really
kind of like it just is not it's not glamorous
it's not the highlands it's not the lowlands
it's not Glasgow it's not Edinburgh it's just
stuck so Arsenal's got a good description for
it but then also it's like I feel that when you
do come from a kind of cultural wasteland you
develop an imagination to create I think which
is quite powerful. So you you came from there
and then how did you end up in Glasgow? Well,
music, I guess, was a real thing. Even as a little
kid, I think some people are drawn to living
in the countryside and some people are drawn
to living in the city. So I grew up in a semi
-rural countryside type thing. There was farms
next to us. The farm that I grew up next to,
we drank the cow's milk from there before pasteurisation.
So the milk was out the cow, into a chiller,
into the bottle. onto the doorstep onto the cornflakes
so we drank milk straight from the cow i don't
know i can't believe i just said that story i
love this detail i know i just but i don't you
know i think that i think it's quite quite amazing
but anyway but then um so But even as a little
kid coming into Glasgow, like maybe to go to,
just to go shopping or go and see a pantomime
or a show or anything like that, I was always,
from like really tiny, was always really excited
to come into Glasgow. So I just think I always
had a feel for the buzz of the city. Yeah. And
I said, so when I got a chance to move here,
I moved here and then I started. So I moved here
actually just on the, dole i was on the dole
i didn't have a job and i'd been i was out at
the art school on a saturday night at divine
and got chatting to people and somebody told
me about this thing called housing benefit which
was like if you were on the dole it means you
got your rent paid and i just i was like wow
imagine that is amazing and then so me and another
couple of guys got together moved into a flat
and got housing benefit but that was only for
a few months and then i started glasgow college
of building printing and studied photography
So what drew you to doing photography then? Just,
again, I just was like, you know, I didn't do
well at school at all, didn't really leave school
with any hires at all, but knew I wanted to do
something creative. But I kind of also really
knew I wanted to make films, but I just had no
connection to that world at all, apart from watching
films and watching TV, which I really loved doing.
And then my... Mum's dad, my grandpa, was a really
keen photographer, amateur photographer, and
he lent me his camera and I just went out and
started taking photographs and just thought,
oh, I can do this, you know. I can look through
the lens and it's a rectangle and it kind of
looks like a film and I thought, oh, I can do
this. So then I did a night class in photography
and a few black and white prints and got them
together and then applied to do a national certificate
at Glasgow College of Building and Printing and
got in. I started my photography thing. And then
I went on to art school after that. So you did
photography at the Glasgow School of Art after.
And then you finished at the art school. Yeah.
So what happened from that point through to where
you are now making films? Well, then I went to
London and did a master's. uh in london where
i did photography and that was just so that was
kind of 2004 2006 so that was really when the
kind of digital revolution happened and you started
to get digital video cameras and a laptop and
editing software and that was all really cheap
and also digital photography as well so you know
i got an old kind of like high street video camera
and then and you could just start videoing things
and and and editing them together yourself and
then I kind of like love of portraiture kind
of fed into that. And then I just started making
kind of like silly videos, video art and different
things. And then. So what age are you at this
point when you actually started doing video stuff?
Well, I was in my thirties. You were in your
thirties? Yeah. So I was like, so this is part
of being a late developer. I relate fully to
this. I'm literally 10 years behind. I mean,
I'm literally 10 years behind, like, you know,
you know, like I'm 54 now. So I should probably
have been. finishing up my first feature at 44
you know i mean or even younger but like uh and
did you feel that even then in your 30s that
you said you were googling what what age did
such and such make a film yeah no i already felt
it there because i think when i went to the i
went to the royal college of art to do my master's
i think i was expecting people to be older but
they but they weren't they were they were straight
out uh you know most most people were in their
early 20s there was a few older people of course
but most people are in the early 20s but i mean
i had a brilliant time it was great and i'm really
glad i Because I was such a late developer, I
was really glad I went to Glasgow older and I
went to the Royal College older because I just
felt I had something to say, you know, and I
enjoyed it. Well, yeah, exactly. You've had some
life experience. So if you started doing the
film stuff in your 30s and everybody was younger
than you, have you basically spent a couple of
decades around people that are much younger than
you? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, not much younger,
but quite a bit younger. Even in my kind of close
friend group, I mean, I'm the oldest. But do
you think that's affected you in some way, in
a positive way? Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I think it
has. It's like, I don't, I mean, I don't, when
I'm in people's company, I mean, it's not that
much difference. But I suppose when I was in
my 20s and my friends, you know, I mean, I'm
only like, my friend Cara, I'm only two years
older than her. Different generation. So out
of our group, actually, she was the second oldest.
But then when I went to art school, though, I
was... I think they'd already all finished art
school, my friends. So everybody was about nine
to 10 years younger than me then when I finally
finished at GSA. One thing that has struck me
though about the art school is when I went to
uni, people did, I did science, people stayed
in their year and there was no kind of inter
-year socialising. But it seems like the culture
of doing art is there's an opening and everybody
goes and it doesn't matter what year you're in
or what. what age I saw that like Glasgow International
just over the weekend there that it was like
every generation was at a show and I feel like
that's pretty cool and supportive across generations
that all ages were at it yeah yeah definitely
it's that but I think I still think there is
a there is a feeling amongst the art world where
it's like you know I've noticed I've not even
since you know I've started putting out stuff
about the film and all that I can tell people
have started People who have known me for years,
I can sense when I speak to them, they respect
me a little bit more now that I've done something.
Right. So that's what I'm talking about, about
the peers thing. Even though I've known them
for years. How can you tell? It's a very subtle
thing, you know, but it's just like, oh, yeah,
yeah, yeah. They're almost surprised. Oh, no.
Well, I think it's been a lot. This is the state
of stuff. Yeah, this is the spiral. Well, it's
not really spiral. I suppose I find it really
interesting. But when I think about before, like
I remember my friend Katie, when I was complaining
one time, when I think I had just moved back
to Glasgow and I was complaining about, you know,
work that I thought was crap and shouldn't have
got an exhibition and stuff like that. And she
said to me, she said, you need to really stop
worrying about what everyone else is doing and
start worrying about what you're doing. And it
really, really stuck with me. And I thought,
gosh, she's totally, totally right. Because it's
quite easy when your own work's not going well,
it's quite easy to start lashing out at people
that are doing well. It's definitely a thing
in comedy as well. I think especially with social
media, it's so easy for people to look like they're
doing incredibly well as well. But behind the
scenes, maybe they're not. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
exactly. And I think people... And I would say
particularly men in comedy make it needlessly
competitive when it doesn't need to be. They're
like, oh, such and such got this gig. Why did
I not get that gig? Such and such has won that
competition. They didn't deserve that. And it's
like, as Katie said, it doesn't affect you. Yeah.
I mean, there's a couple of movies out in the
cinema at the moment which are doing really well.
Horror films, one called Obsession and one called
Backrooms. And the director of Obsession is like
26. And the director of Backrooms is 20. and
you can't hear again i'm going what what pressure
though you know like after they've made that
what next for them like at least you know maybe
they should go and live life a bit and then come
back to it i don't know but they can't do that
now because they've they've just made they've
just made loads of money well i guess they've
got it's not fair is it i know you can kind of
do whatever you want then if you've had a hit
you know so the kind of anxiety around being
older or feeling like you're playing catch -up,
did that begin in your 30s? Yeah. Or is that
more recent? Definitely began in my 30s, yeah.
So it's been like this for a long time. Because
I had the cover of the institution, of college,
even though I was a mature student at GSA and
I was a mature student at the RCA. But then once
that ended, then suddenly I felt more my age.
Right, okay. You know, I think I felt, oh, things
had to start. Things had just happened fast for
me because I was already older. Like I wasn't
graduating at 23 and just being able to mess
around for another 10 years. I felt things had
happened faster. But don't you think that gives
you a greater sense of purpose in a way? Or like
you feel this kind of anxiety to like, I need
to catch up. So actually you might end up being
much more productive than somebody who's younger
and just kind of dawdling around and not really
thinking about time. um no because i think you
actually end up spending too much time worrying
about it not just not just enough not enough
time actually just working away at your own pace
and just being like and just allowing because
that's what i've learned now like as i've got
a bit older is just allow the ideas to come but
any idea that comes just make sure you're ready
for it and make sure and make sure you you push
it as far as it can go you know what if an idea
does come but like don't stress out about them
not coming or definitely don't stress out about
things not happening quick enough because it'll
end because actually that will stop it will actually
stop the ideas coming i think i guess it's difficult
and we all do when you like you finish a project
and you don't take any time to kind of bask in
the achievement and chill out it's always like
what's the next thing or if there are deadlines
for funding or oh i've got to book this show
then it kind of forces you to be on this treadmill
and maybe a lot of the stuff that you end up
making isn't as good because you're not taking
your time for the ideas to actually be good.
But the fun bit's the making. I genuinely think,
I think the fun bit's the making. It's actually...
all that basking in the glory and all that stuff,
I think just, just actually just forget. As soon
as something's finished, forget about it. That's
where delusion comes. It's out of your hands,
you know? So you should just go back to, go back
to follow that idea that you maybe never had
time to do when you were finishing off the last
thing and just start working through it. And
then other ideas come and then, and that's actually,
and those, those, those beginning moments of
ideas, whether you're working with someone else
or yourself and you're just working through things.
That's the best bit because it doesn't cost any
money. Do you know what I mean, really? You just
need to sit with a pen and paper and write things
down. And that's great. And it's not until it
gets further and further on when you have to
do something about it, that's when it starts
getting stressful. Yeah, that's true. It's exciting
when you get an idea and you're really excited
about it. Because I'm too old. I guess I relate
to this quite a lot because... I, it was only
really a few years ago that I started doing comedy
after dipping in and out of it for years, but
never really committing. And then a few years
ago, I got TikTok. I was like, I'm going to do
one sketch a week and see what happens. And it's
quite heartening in a way, because it's not to
say that the sketches were good. It was just
making the time and putting it, putting that
time eventually I got somewhere. But when I started
doing gigs. I was the old one. You know, there's
not many women over 40 doing stand -up. I think
there's some comedians like Callie Beaton, who
is 50, who came into comedy really late. Janie
Godley. Janie Godley. Was she a bit older? Yeah,
she was in her 40s or maybe even 50. I don't
know when she started. When she first started
doing stand -up. When she first got noticed anyway
and became... yeah became became really well
known but you do feel you do feel this pressure
to like catch up and it's difficult when there's
not many other people your age or have come to
it late around you yeah yeah that's true that's
true actually and it's just even calling yourself
the thing like i've got a something so after
i go back to when i just finished that when you
when things started when i started to really
worry you know when i first finished my ma about
who i was i actually went to I said to myself,
I'm just going to start when somebody asked me
what I do, I'm going to say I'm an artist because
I'd never done that before. I'd always just say,
oh, I do a bit of this and I do a bit of that.
And I work behind a bar. I do a thing. And I
just decided that I would say, oh, what do you
do? I'm just going to say I'm an artist and have
no embarrassment about it or anything. Just say
it straight up. And I was at a friend's dinner
party in London with a friend who I used to work
with in a bar in Glasgow. And she was like a.
She's like an editor for a big publishing house
now and stuff. I was a few years old around for
dinner and we were all having a nice time and
stuff and they were all talking about buying
houses and everything. So again, I already felt
like, because these people were about the same
age as me, maybe even a little bit younger and
they were all talking about buying houses and
I was nowhere near that. And one of them says,
what do you do, Martin? And I said, I'm an artist.
And one of the guys went... Really? Like, guffawed.
That's awful. Actually guffawed. Wow. So that
was my first outgoing. That is horrible. I know.
Are you still in contact with that person? No,
I didn't know him. I only knew the host. That
makes it worse. I know. Yeah, he just thought...
Yeah, it was shocking behaviour, but he'd never
met an artist before, probably. Okay, so maybe
it was... being generous it was just more the
shock of i think he just was shocked i think
he was just genuinely there's a guy i'm having
dinner with a guy who's an artist and he's not
only he's an artist he's bold enough to say yes
yeah that's the delusion that you need what a
deluded what a deluded loser at least you didn't
call yourself a creative yeah i used to laugh
i mean i privately laugh years ago you know on
twitter bios People that I knew were just doing
unpaid open mic comedy gigs or had maybe done
a handful of gigs having comedian in their bio.
And I was like, I'm not sure about that. But
then that maybe was me projecting my own insecurity
a little bit as well. It's interesting, isn't
it? It's like I remember chatting with a friend
about, you know, what's the most ridiculous thing
to say you are? You know, if you were like a
poet, I think probably. I mean, that's kind of
the worst, isn't it? But like, I mean, how do
you, at what stage do you get to say, I mean,
would you, once you were published, would you
be able to say, I'm a poet? I think that would
be a good milestone. I mean, you're not saying
you're a good poet. Yeah, but you wouldn't, but
a writer would say, I'm a writer before they've
been published. I've only started thinking about
using the word writer for myself recently. Right.
I don't know. It just, it does seem. Do you write
poetry? I don't write poetry, no. Actually, I
did at Burns Night once. Oh, yeah, of course
you did. Yeah, I wrote a poem for you. You did,
exactly. I can't remember it, but yeah. So I
am a poet. You can put that in your list of jobs.
I'll put it on LinkedIn. Poet. But if you were
just in a group of people you didn't really know
and we were saying, oh, what do you do? Do you
say, I'm a poet? That would get the most chance
of getting a guffaw, I think. Probably. Unless
you really owned it. An artist is probably second.
I think maybe it's part of how you delivered
it. Do you remember? Did you say it really confidently?
Or were you like, oh, I'm an artist? Well, I
said it quite confidently, but I think the, but
maybe I thought I said it confidently. That's
probably what it was. I thought I said it confidently,
but maybe it was still slightly weaker. Enough
for him to guffaw anyway. I mean, he's an asshole,
the guy, but like, but like, I mean, I never,
I never, I wasn't like bold enough to be like,
how dare you laugh? I just kind of like, kind
of went along with it. I do wonder isn't this
something that they say they kind of instill
in kids that go to elite private schools they
really have it instilled in them this confidence
and sort of level of delusion and that's why
so many of them end up apart from all the money
and the networking or whatever but in these really
big positions of power it's just having that
healthy slash unhealthy level of delusion and
confidence that that gets you places and actually
confidence can go such a long way. It's not even
in power, I mean, isn't it? It's the same in
comedy, in British comedy as well, you know,
the footlights and all that kind of stuff, you
know what I mean? It's like people have, you
know, kind of done everything to get there so
that they can get a comedy career out of it.
But there's been lots of the funniest stuff of
all times come from there, so I'm not having
a dig at it. I'm not having a dig at it because
I think, to be honest, I just feel like whatever
class you come from, it's more difficult. It's
still difficult to do what you want to do. I
think cultural capital is more important. I think
you could probably come... Your parents could
be artists. Yes, having that exposure. Who've
never really made... never really made much money
themselves and i've always kind of got by but
i've always been there with the cultural capital
with the yeah with the ability to say oh that's
good or why don't you try that or why did you
do that give you confidence in your work you
know what i mean like i think it's more to do
with that to come to have come from a kind of
creative been taken to the theater taken to galleries
or whatever i think that's more that's more important
than money to be honest So you talked about one
of your anxieties about finding your peers. Yeah.
So is that something you've always, always struggled
with? Or have you found your people now? Yeah,
I mean, I have. Who are your peers? That's the
way I don't know. I don't know. But like people
say your peers, it's like when you've done a
thing, you're like, oh man, now that I've made
a feature film, does that mean, you know, I'm
a peerage above people that haven't? Okay. is
that how you're starting to feel but yeah but
like because not that many people get to do that
no that's true you know lots who make things
but there's not that many people that really
get to make a feature film but um but it was
done with a virtually like no money and stuff
but i just thought if i didn't have a go at it
then i would really really regret it but now
that it's done i'm i am a little bit like oh
i've done it you know what does that mean does
that mean i'm now a Can I now say I am a film
director or filmmaker? I mean, I always like
to say filmmaker because I feel that's less chance
of a guffaw. Rather than director? Rather than
director. I think director's a little bit like...
Saying you're a film director is a little bit
close to poet or artist. But also, you write
on your films. You've written material, so you're
not just a director. Yeah, exactly. So filmmaker
would be more... Yeah, but even though it doesn't
sound as pompous as film director, filmmaker.
I've always felt a bit like... Does it? I don't
know if it does. Maybe it does. Filmmaker sounds
a bit more... I don't know. A bit more community
-based. Yeah. Well, I do feel like maybe directors
get more cred than writers. in films you know
it's like oh that's a such and such a film and
they'll just name the director and the writer
is often overlooked yeah i think it's a bit of
a shame when it's the it's the strong writing
that makes a film good i think yeah yeah for
sure for sure but that's just but where it's
in tv it's the other way around in tv the writers
the king and same with theater i think the writer
is much more lodged above filmmaking but i think
it's maybe changing a little bit with filmmaking
so much So your peers that you work with, are
they then, who are they? Maybe the word peer
is the problem. Maybe it is, yeah. Your colleagues,
your community that you're working with, who
are they? What do they comprise? Well, they come
from all walks of life. I guess my experience
of Glasgow has been much more involved in the...
art scene and the music scene, even though I'm
not a musician myself. Lots of my friends were,
I worked in bars where there was lots of music
people involved in different things in the visual
art. And I think the visual art community in
Glasgow kind of like copied the music community
in a way with the DIY. Glasgow's having that
DIY history and all that kind of thing. And that's
what I kind of spent my kind of adult life being
involved in. But I guess I always wanted to be
a filmmaker, so I knew that I had... But the
thing about those two things, particularly Glasgow's
quite internationally -round versions of its
music and its art, is they didn't wait for permission
to do it. They just went and did it. So I decided
that that was the model I was going to follow
rather than a Scottish film -type thing. I'm
going to follow those two things and just try
and do something without waiting for permission.
So that's who I would see as my peers is more
the kind of musicians and the artists, I think,
rather than other filmmakers. I think that's
much more interesting than the kind of idea of
a peer that you were talking about before that
you're anxious about not finding, isn't it? To
have people that have that attitude because you
just end up with people from all different backgrounds
and ages. And it's that that brings them together
rather than an arbitrary like, oh, I'm 35 and
I'm doing such, you know, I'm at this stage in
my career. Yeah, I've always been more interested
in like, I suppose you'd say outsider artists,
even though I'm not in that term. So that would
be comedians, you know, like, you know, so it'd
be like, you know, in comic book, underground
comics, underground comics, underground comedians,
musicians, just like oddballs. I've just always
been more drawn to. So the film's kind of littered
with those types. Like I say, I personally find
that kind of thing much more interesting and
inspiring. So I think you've got nothing to worry
about. no i know i know thanks very much this
has actually been really therapeutic i think
you're totally right you're feeling better i
still yeah i think now it's still but it's still
even like you know there's things you know even
now as the film's about to come out i'm pretty
sure if there is any press it'll say like oh
you know They'll talk about my age. Really? For
a debut feature. For a debut feature. He's like,
debut feature it. Maybe you need to own. What
took you so long? You just own it maybe, yeah.
I think own it as an interest. That's what makes
you different. Yeah. One of my most recent heroes
is Tony Morris. Oh, he's amazing. He's a perfect
example. Perfect example. 70s. He's in the 70s
and he just got himself out there and did it.
He's played Berkine. Yeah, exactly. He's a hero.
I think the first time when he played at Optimo
at the Berkeley suite, you know, it was like
just the full crowd of young people were just
all chanting, you know, Tony fucking Morris,
Tony fucking Morris, Tony fucking Morris. And
he's brilliant. Yeah, and he's in my film. Is
he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He plays a kind of like
a crooner at the end of the bar. Yeah. But he's
just playing his own. he's in it three times
and he does his own work in the bar as i thought
because i saw obviously saw him on instagram
just like everybody else and just um and thought
he was brilliant and just messaged him said look
do you find me for a coffee i've got this film
that i'd quite like to be involved in we met
up and and we're pals now it's amazing and again
it's not i do think age is irrelevant here it's
about having that similar outlook and zest for
trying new things and he is an outsider in electronic
music but he really stands out yeah yeah so cool
exactly no of course you're right i do know you
know it's but it's also you can see it and don't
even know for yourself that's also easy yeah
that's also easy to say because i know that i
mean i could easily just say what you just said
yeah because i know it's correct but just because
it's correct doesn't mean it doesn't mean that
you always feel it but that's just normal as
part of being human and you know yeah i guess
it's i guess it's I guess it's kind of, it's
all wrapped up in self -esteem and insecurity
and all those things. Why should, why the fuck
should anyone pay attention to what you're doing?
Yeah. Especially today when there's so much stuff
going on. But I think everyone's got something
unique to say. No, no, I know totally. No, totally,
totally it is. But it's just, it's just a constant,
I think it's a constant, it's a constant battle
between ego and... Yeah, ego, self -delusion
and insecurity. I would also say, though, like
in Jealous Alan, for example, your films are
airing kind of anxieties and, in the case of
that film, jealousy and things that lots of people
can relate to and feel seen when they watch.
So it's not just about yourself. You know, sometimes
you're making something and it really resonates
with people. And so I think... There's a value
in that. Yeah, thanks for saying that. Your anxieties
are fueling what you're making as well because
it's honest. And that's when it's exciting and
relatable. I remember I sat in Hillhead Library
and I was like, jealousy, that's a horrible thing,
isn't it? It's probably the worst. It's really
ugly, isn't it? It's the ugliest emotion. But
it also can make you feel sick. Oh no. And you
can't even really... you know it doesn't it's
not the one that it's not like you know grief
loss and stuff where people comfort you you know
it's really hard if someone's just being jealous
you've got to keep it to yourself yeah you're
not getting comforted by anyone that's true because
it's kind of ugly you know and that's why i thought
i thought i'm gonna go for this i'm gonna go
for that one then because actually there's not
that there's not that many things made about
jealousy i don't think If you had a girlfriend,
right, and she got off with your best pal, who
would you blame? Both of them. That's really
interesting. I'd blame the girlfriend. Why? Because.
Friends are forever stupid. for somebody else
to solve. Help me. Are you feeling better? Yeah,
definitely. Just doing this makes you feel better.
Are you ready? So this is the part where I've
got a little problem from the previous guest
that I'm going to share with you. Okay, great.
And you're going to be the agony aunt or uncle.
Okay, brilliant. So this problem came from a
comedian, Eleanor Morton. It's a very funny character
comedian. And it's just a little thing, but I'll
see if you've got any advice for her. So I'm
going to hit this button and you should be able
to hear it. Hi, my problem is I find it really
hard to motivate myself in the morning to get
going. How do I get out of bed instead of spending
the first hour of my consciousness scrolling
through the internet and fannying around? That's
exactly what I do. really difficult um let me
think about that can i think for a bit yeah you
can i'll edit out a long pause um getting a dog
is good for that because you have to you have
to walk them and you've got a dog and i've got
a dog but he's but funnily enough he's really
lazy so he doesn't actually get up that he doesn't
actually need out that early he did at first
when he was a puppy but now What sort of time
does he need out then? Sometimes he can go till
10 or 11. That's great. I know, but it doesn't
help with the getting... I mean, one of the reasons
I thought you... One of the reasons I got a dog
was actually for this exact problem that your
previous guest had. I think that's good advice,
though. It's easier. I mean, you could... Yeah,
get a dog. Yeah, because that's unusual. Most
dogs do. You need to get up and get them at about
8 or 9 or something like that. Yeah, my brother
is up really early for his dog. If they want
out. So get a dog. Really, really, really try
and not look at your phone. That's the killer.
Maybe go and put your phone in the kitchen or
something. When you get up? No, no, just leave
it in the kitchen. Just full stop, always. Yeah,
well, when you go to bed. I've never done this
one, but other people said leave your phone in
the living room or the kitchen when you go to
bed. See, my problem, although I've recently
found a way to solve it, I use my phone as an
alarm. To get up for work. Yeah. So it goes off
and then I immediately pick it up and then I'm
on my phone. Yeah. But my phone has been really
dodgy recently. So I bought an alarm clock separate,
like a traditional alarm clock, which I've still
to set up. It's like a digital one. So I'm thinking
I'll start using that. And then I can have my
phone away. But that wasn't because I was worried
about phone doom scrolling. It was because I
was worried about my phone. It was like randomly
switching itself off in the night and stuff.
So I suppose that's a solution. Yeah, that's
a solution. So you get an alarm clock and leave
your phone in another room. Yeah. Or, I mean,
I've never done this, but I've always wondered
what it'd be like to have a tease made. Oh. Which
would mean that would be your clock and would
wake you up with a cup of tea. So then you could
maybe sit up. and drink and get a little bit
of caffeine in you i've only seen that in father
ted i've never seen one in real life i don't
think they're so popular these days but yeah
but it was a it's a real thing that you could
still get yeah yeah i think you can still get
a tease made and the whole point was like it
would the alarm would go off and it would you
would you'd have you'd have a cup of tea ready
for you see i would want milk in my tea though
so you also need to have a little fridge at the
end of the bed oh no sorry maybe it's got has
it got a milk section maybe it's got a milk section
I don't know maybe it can add milk in as well
do you start with a cup of tea in the morning
or no I usually I would have a coffee but um
do you know I went to the hygienist today it
was a new hygienist dental hygienist and I sat
down I opened my mouth and she was like you like
your tea and coffee don't you it's like yeah
well apparently you're supposed to you should
always brush because you think like why brush
your teeth before you have your coffee but you
should brush your teeth before you have your
coffee apparently because of the germs that are
that build up in your mouth as you sleep and
then if you if you don't brush your teeth before
and then you take your coffee you're just taking
all those germs straight down into your gut oh
So you should still always brush your teeth before
your coffee. The thing is, apparently you're
meant to wait 30 minutes after you've brushed
your teeth before having the coffee because of
the enamel or something. So it's tough, isn't
it? Well, that's when she could get up and brush
her teeth straight away. Up and brush her teeth.
Maybe get dressed, shower or something like that,
and then coffee. Maybe it's about rewards. It's
difficult. I mean, this doesn't sound appealing
to me. Brush my teeth, wait half an hour. The
dog's been the best one so far. The dog is the
best one. I mean, obviously we both suffer from
the same problem. I think everybody that... Anyone
who does anything like a bit creative... All
the other comedians are not going to be able
to do anything either. Yeah, maybe it's actually
about reframing and it's like, well, one of the
advantages of being freelance is you don't have
to get up and you have. You know, the luxury
of doing some doom scrolling and lying in bed.
She should put it out to her peers. Yeah, good
point. Okay, Eleanor, I hope that helps you.
And if not, sorry, we tried. Okay, well, that
brings us to the end of spiralling. This is the
bit where I ask if there's anything you would
like to share. with the, I hope, listeners, plural.
This is a new podcast. Please listen. Okay, yeah,
we can follow Public House Film on Instagram
and you'll get updates of where we're at with
it and where it's going to premiere. We haven't
got a festival yet to premiere at, but we will
do soon, hopefully. So following social media,
do you know roughly, have you got a timeline
for when you're going to finish? Have it out
in the world. Well, hopefully we'll get an August
premiere at a festival somewhere and then another
couple of festivals through the winter and then
Scottish premiere early next year sometime. So
hopefully we'll get... The film will actually
be released in cinemas in early spring. That's
not long. No, I know. Exciting. Fingers crossed.
All these things depend on distributors and all
this other stuff. And your other films, Jealous
Alan, you can watch on your Vimeo? You can watch
on my Vimeo page, yeah. If you just go to Martin
Clark Vimeo, you'll be able to find my Vimeo
page and you can see my short films and lots
of other things that I've made over the years
on there. Thank you, Martin, for spiralling.
Thank you for having me. Spiralling was recorded
and edited with jingles written by me, Zara Gladman.
Artwork was by Tom Dees, who you can follow on
Instagram at easypeasylemondeezy. If you enjoyed
this and would like to stop me spiralling about
my decision to make a podcast, then why not leave
me a five -star review on Apple or Spotify? Thanks
for listening.