WEBVTT

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Welcome to Spiralling, the podcast where guests

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share the problems, insecurities, and festering

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little brain worms that they just can't get out

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of their heads. I'm Zara Gladman. I'm not a therapist,

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but people like to tell me their problems, and

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I like to record them for content. Together,

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we'll try to get to the bottom of what's really

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going on, and with any luck, stop spiralling.

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Let's go! Hey guys, I'm a bit embarrassed that

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I'm doing this because I resisted for so long,

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but it's true. I've done it. I've started a podcast.

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Why am I doing this? Because everyone else is

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doing it and I enjoy the long form. You know,

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I do get fed up with social media. That's kind

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of why I started a sub stack, which you can still

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read if you prefer the written form to these

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salsa tones. I thought it would be a good excuse

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to reach out to people who I found interesting

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as well. And boy, do I have a lineup for you.

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It's obviously got a few comedians in there,

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but there are some other creative people from

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different sectors as well. and it's been a genuine

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pleasure to chat to all of them. Part of my cunning

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plan of making this podcast themed around spiralling

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was I thought, well, that's a cheeky way of encouraging

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my guests to be a little bit vulnerable. And

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I'll leave it up to you to decide whether that

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cunning plan has worked. But people have shared

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really interesting things with me, so I'm pretty

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pleased with how it's gone. As I record this,

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it is the 27th of July, 2026. I was out filming

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today for a secret television project. I am back

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to my day job tomorrow, just for one day and

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then I'm off again filming. My flat right now

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is a total riot. There's clothes and just crap

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everywhere. I've got a load of washing on. So

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to be honest with you, I think the reason I'm

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recording this podcast intro right now is because

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I'm procrastinating doing my chores. Get on with

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it. It has been a very busy summer. As I say,

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I'm doing this telly project. I'm also doing

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one date at the Fringe. Please come along on

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the 12th of August at Cab Vol 1 with Monkey Barrel.

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It's last year's show, but last year's show had

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great reviews and it sold out its runs. So if

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you haven't seen it, come along. If you went

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last year and you liked it. Tell a friend. Anyway,

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it's time for me to introduce the first ever

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spiraling guest. And it's a buyer because it

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is Eleanor Morton. Eleanor Morton is a comedian

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who I've known for many years. She is very funny.

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She is very smart. She has a strong moral code

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as well, which I admire. And she is a big overthinker.

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So When I started this podcast, I thought immediately,

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I've got to get Eleanor. I've got to get her.

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And thankfully she accepted my invitation and

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we had a great chat. Plus, because this is the

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first episode, I've got a bonus guest and this

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is a mystery guest who we phoned live on the

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podcast. I'm not going to say who it is, but

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it's somebody very important to me. It's somebody

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who lives in a different country and I hope you

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enjoy the three way chat that came from this.

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So here we go. I'm spiraling. Okay. Welcome Eleanor

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to the first ever episode of spiraling. Have

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you ever been on the first episode of something?

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Oh, that's a good question. I don't think so.

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I've probably been on the last episode of something.

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I've been on the first and the last episode of

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my own sketch show. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, because

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it was one episode. It was all as intended. Yeah.

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That was the plan all along. Very excited to

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have you here on my show about anxiety and spiraling.

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What made you think of me? Oh, well, I don't

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want to make you overthink this, but you did.

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You were quite near the top of my list if not

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number one. No, I really wanted to fill the niche

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of most anxious Scottish woman, but if it's happened,

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it's happened. I think it, yeah, I think it may

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have happened. Have you ever been on a podcast

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where the host has a clipboard? I don't think

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so. Are you, would you like to be the first?

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Are you very excited about that? Yeah, I'm just

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trying to set various records today. What about

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an anxiety blanket? No, this is definitely the

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first anxiety blanket. I think I like it. I don't

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know how I feel about it. being over my whole

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body. That might be quite a lot, but over the

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knees is quite nice. Yeah. I quite like it. I

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think they get them for dogs as well. Yeah. That

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doesn't surprise me for fireworks. Apparently

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it's a thing. Yeah. I'm trying to think. I, I,

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what do I use to soothe me? Cause it's not heavy

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blankets. It's, I think it's hot water bottles.

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I love a hot water bottle. Just some warmth and

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blistering heat. Yeah. Blisters. Yeah. So Eleanor,

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you're a comedian and author. comedy writer,

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an actor, a stand up, a podcaster, grade seven

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piano, grade seven piano. So I'm really sorry.

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I missed that. I did do research, but I didn't.

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That's not on your Wikipedia. Did you know you

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had a Wikipedia by the way? I do because I think

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my sister is, she didn't make it, but I think

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she has edited it in the past because somebody

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put something in that was wrong and it annoyed

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her. So congratulations. Do you have one? No,

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I don't. Um, I mean, can your sister, she could

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probably set one up. I don't know who made it

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and I don't know when or why. It's kind of weird

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looking at your own information and thinking,

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well, you could put more than that in but then

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you're like, oh no, it has to be cited and you

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can't just be like, I say so. Yeah, I think there's

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laws, isn't there? Or you can't create one for

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yourself. Probably. Or at least you can't just

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be like, I'm me and I say this is true. But no,

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it's I mean, is it flattering? I don't know.

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It's it exists. It listed all of your friend

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shows and your work. So I was impressed by it.

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Somebody obviously was like, right, we've got

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to get these facts out here. So, you know, people

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love people love a tally and a table and a fact

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sheet. They do. What have you been working on

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recently? Well, I've been working on recently.

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I am working towards my friend show this year.

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my ninth. Oh my God. Oh my God. Cause you only

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did your first. I know I'm a little baby. We

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do go, we do go years back. Although there was

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a gap of about seven years where I just sort

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of disappeared into an abyss and I didn't do

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comedy. Well I was in London so I don't think

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I noticed. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. You're in that

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other abyss. I was in the other abyss and then

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I came back and I was like, who's still on the

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scene? I remember Mark Jennings told me that

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you had been on some laugh pod and he'd said,

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what's changed in comedy in the last 15 years?

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And the only thing you could think of was that

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I don't play the ukulele. Yeah. Yeah. That's

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the first thing that came to mind. That's the

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big change in Scottish comedy. You've done a

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thousand different things and this podcast is

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about, you know, spiraling and anxiety and stuff.

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But considering, you know, you, you might be

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an overthinker, might have anxiety. I think it

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takes a lot of confidence to do all those different

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things. I think that's something that I like

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about your work because you're not, you're not

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boxed in. You're not scared to try all these

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different things. Sometimes I'm scared of not

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having any money and that does make you try different

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things. That's true. Uh, I think, I think because

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I used to be so scared of everything and I am

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less scared now, I really had to force myself

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to do stuff. So, uh, I'm quite good at like making

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myself do scary things. even if I'm very, very

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uncomfortable at the time. And that is probably

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how I ended up doing multiple things to various

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skill levels. Is there a scale? Like if you think

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about the different things that you've done,

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like podcasting stand up, like from no anxiety

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to terrifying, you know, is there, is there a

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scale there or are they equally skinny or I think

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stand up is always going to be the scariest,

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but it depends on the situation because it's

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not always scary. But if you're in a new place

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or you're trying to impress people, you know,

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you got to do well. That's really stressful,

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but less than it used to be because I've done

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it. If you do something enough, do you get scared?

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Do you get nervous? Yes. I mean, I started to

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spiral about even just doing this like last night.

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I was like, do you know what's scary? I spent

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a lot of money in all this equipment. It's very

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nice equipment. And then, you know, when I started

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to ask people if they wanted to be on it. I was

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like, I've committed now. And then you start

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to worry about the guest and wasting their time.

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Oh, I assure you I have. You cannot waste my

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time. Okay, that's reassuring. What did I do

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today? I watched a Netflix documentary about

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an FDLS cult FLDS. What does that stand for?

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You know, it's the Mormons who live in the desert

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in the weird dresses. Oh, it's not the mainstream

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Mormons. It's the ones who have multiple wives.

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Okay. And this one was about a woman who infiltrates

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them by pretending. Well, she is making a documentary,

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but she's pretending. She's just kind of that

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to be like getting to know them. But really she's

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trying to bring down this, uh, abusive predator.

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Wow. And I did all my laundry. Okay. Um, I saw,

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um, on the Mormon front, I saw a book of Mormon

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for the first time recently and I've never seen

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it. Did you like it? Well, I didn't realize that

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it's actually quite racist. Do you mean Mormons

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or the musical? No, they saw the musical. Oh,

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sorry. The Book of Mormon. I didn't read the

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Book of Mormon. I went to see the musical. Do

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you mean the musical was racist or the musical?

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The religion? Oh yeah, I knew that because they

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only let black people in in like the seventies

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or something. For some reason, some black people

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apparently wanted to join. Yeah, but God changed

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his mind in the seventies and started to let

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them in. What is racist about the musical? Yeah,

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so I hadn't seen it before. I had no expectations

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other than South park. I love South park. And

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you know, there were bits of that. I absolutely

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loved like choreography. The music was amazing.

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Really, really funny. But the kind of loose storyline

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is the Mormons, you know, they go on these like

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missions. And apparently they go outside of our

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showed, you know, they go all over the place.

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I was once accosted by a guy and I was trying

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to cross a really busy road in the middle of

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Edinburgh. And I would have talked to him because

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I quite, no, no, he was a little child. But he

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was, you know, I always like to engage and ask

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annoying questions. Not in a horrible way, just

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like, anyway, but I was like, I will get run

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over if you keep talking to me. But yeah, they're

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here. So they go on these missions and the Mormons

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in the musical go to Uganda. Great. And it's

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just it's the way they kind of represent the

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Ugandans is just a bit, um, there's stuff about

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AIDS. Okay. And you know, it's just like, you

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know, you could tell it was written 20 years

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ago. I, this is interesting because I heard that

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they changed it recently to kind of be more up

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to date with the fact acknowledging that because

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it used to be like, haha, moments are funny,

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but they're not half just a bit of fun. And now

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they kind of had to go, actually there's lots

00:11:54.509 --> 00:11:56.779
of problematic things, but Yeah. So I looked

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this after seeing the show, obviously I went

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on Reddit immediately and was Googling and apparently

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after 2020 and black lives matter, lots of black

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actors got together and basically were like,

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we're not going to participate unless you rewrite

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a lot of the script. So what I saw must have

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been the rewrite. So I wonder what the original

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was like. Find it somewhere. Probably if you

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really wanted to. Anyway, that's a Mormon tangent.

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Are you a worrier? Yes. Okay. Do you think that

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has that changed as you've got older or have

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you always? I think it's got better. I was way

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worse when I was younger and undiagnosed. And

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there wasn't really a con like when I was seven,

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basically, I started to get symptoms of OCD and

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like generalized anxiety disorder, but obviously

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at that point, nobody knew. I mean, people did,

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but children having mental health wasn't really

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a thing. You know, like maybe you'd put kids

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who were hyper on, on pills to calm them down,

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but that was it really. Or, you know, you'd have

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like occasional cases of them killing people,

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but like general mental health for kids wasn't.

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So like, I would start to kind of worry about

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things and like irrationally and sort of talk

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about it. And everyone was just like, oh well.

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I just, I wouldn't worry about it. And that didn't

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help because it was a clinical thing. So I actually

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am better now because I am medicated in therapy

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and know what is wrong with me. But the world

00:13:37.169 --> 00:13:40.129
feels worse. But I'm better equipped than I was

00:13:40.129 --> 00:13:42.730
when I was seven. Do you feel worse than you

00:13:42.730 --> 00:13:47.970
did? I fluctuate, like I think in some ways in

00:13:47.970 --> 00:13:53.059
my... 20s, I was more confident. Like, you know,

00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:55.299
when I think about, you know, I did little bits

00:13:55.299 --> 00:13:58.419
of comedy in my late 20s and I had all this confidence

00:13:58.419 --> 00:14:02.600
to go and do that. But I think a lot of what

00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:04.620
I was doing was actually pretty shit, but then

00:14:04.620 --> 00:14:07.879
I didn't know it was shit. You know, so that's

00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:10.259
the best way to be. So, but then as soon as you

00:14:10.259 --> 00:14:13.039
realize all that is shit and then you realize

00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.159
or you learn and you get better. and you realize,

00:14:16.340 --> 00:14:18.019
oh, I'm not actually hitting the mark, you kind

00:14:18.019 --> 00:14:20.559
of lose that confidence. So I don't know, there's

00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:23.059
a weird sort of self doubt that creeps in or

00:14:23.059 --> 00:14:25.820
has started creeping in my forties. It's the

00:14:25.820 --> 00:14:28.500
opposite of the Dunning -Kruger effect. Oh, what's

00:14:28.500 --> 00:14:32.519
that? That's where people are. So what is it

00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:34.120
that they're stupid and they don't know they're

00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:35.379
stupid or they're stupid and they think they're

00:14:35.379 --> 00:14:39.679
clever? Okay. But you're not stupid, but you're

00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:41.779
worried you're not clever. Yeah. I have heard

00:14:41.779 --> 00:14:44.320
smart people are more likely to be unhappy. So

00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:48.080
let's say that. And see when you have a problem

00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:49.539
or you're stressed about something, do you talk

00:14:49.539 --> 00:14:53.139
about that to anybody? Um, it depends what the

00:14:53.139 --> 00:14:56.120
problem is. Uh, sometimes I just put it on social

00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:57.960
media and then I'm like, why did I do that? That's

00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:00.240
worse. I mean, I don't recommend it, but I do

00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:02.940
talk to people. Uh, I find my boyfriend very

00:15:02.940 --> 00:15:05.320
soothing because he is not, he's not a warrior

00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:08.679
at all. And sometimes I will be in the middle

00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:10.580
of talking about something and he'll go, I don't

00:15:10.580 --> 00:15:13.000
think that's true. And you'll just be like, Oh

00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.200
yeah, okay. It's very grounding. But I think

00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:19.539
I'm, I think I worry that I annoy people with

00:15:19.539 --> 00:15:22.200
my anxiety. Like, Oh, Ellen is here again, like

00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:24.379
worried about something. Cause I know it's, I

00:15:24.379 --> 00:15:27.100
know it's not rational, but it's still hard to

00:15:27.100 --> 00:15:29.279
stop doing it. You know? I have met your boyfriend

00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:33.440
and I agree. He's so Zen. So I could see that

00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:37.340
being a good influence. on you for sure. Yeah.

00:15:39.100 --> 00:15:41.960
So speaking of problems and talking about them,

00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:45.419
you've got a spiral that you're going to share

00:15:45.419 --> 00:15:49.039
with us and we're going to talk through. So tell

00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:52.440
me what's on your mind. My question, my spiral

00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:58.720
is how do we keep making art when the world is

00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:04.909
really anti art currently? Wow. That's um, That's

00:16:04.909 --> 00:16:07.690
a big one. You've brought a big spiral for the

00:16:07.690 --> 00:16:11.850
first episode. Okay, is this something that has

00:16:11.850 --> 00:16:14.649
bothered you for a long time? Or is this something

00:16:14.649 --> 00:16:18.429
that's been on your mind recently? I'd say recently

00:16:18.429 --> 00:16:22.190
within the last couple of years, I feel like

00:16:22.190 --> 00:16:24.789
maybe maybe it's directly correlates with my

00:16:24.789 --> 00:16:28.490
personal success. I don't know. But I think the

00:16:28.490 --> 00:16:31.570
more the basically in some ways, the better I

00:16:31.570 --> 00:16:36.559
do, the more I'm aware of how precarious our

00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:39.259
position is as people who create stuff and how

00:16:39.259 --> 00:16:43.639
un, what's the word, not set up for it, the world

00:16:43.639 --> 00:16:46.940
that we live in is and how everything is kind

00:16:46.940 --> 00:16:50.279
of being taken over by, you know, doing things

00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:53.940
quickly and easily and horribly instead of for

00:16:53.940 --> 00:16:57.679
the sake of it. And I worry that people are not

00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:00.460
seeing the benefit of, I mean, I say art, comedy.

00:17:00.750 --> 00:17:03.149
mostly is why some people would argue is not

00:17:03.149 --> 00:17:05.930
art, but the benefit of doing art for art sake,

00:17:06.349 --> 00:17:10.450
which I think is, you know, I think we is valued,

00:17:10.450 --> 00:17:14.309
but it needs to be more valued and Let's let's

00:17:14.309 --> 00:17:18.250
unpack that. Okay. So you see, you see the world

00:17:18.250 --> 00:17:22.230
is anti art or like anti comedy. What specifically

00:17:22.230 --> 00:17:24.869
do you feel is going wrong? Do you know what

00:17:24.869 --> 00:17:27.549
I saw today? Do you know Zoe bread on Instagram?

00:17:27.690 --> 00:17:30.430
She's great. So she did a video today all about

00:17:30.430 --> 00:17:33.029
this isn't comedy specific. This is um, so one

00:17:33.029 --> 00:17:36.730
so so so David Ashmore is 100. Yeah, we're all

00:17:36.730 --> 00:17:39.490
very happy about that. He's the last thread keeping

00:17:39.490 --> 00:17:41.950
this country together. So happy birthday to him.

00:17:42.430 --> 00:17:44.829
One of the EastEnders actors, don't know his

00:17:44.829 --> 00:17:48.589
name, don't watch EastEnders, did a portrait

00:17:48.589 --> 00:17:51.789
of Attenborough's birthday. And it was displayed

00:17:51.789 --> 00:17:53.890
in this Bristol, no, it's a Brighton gallery,

00:17:54.009 --> 00:17:56.450
I think it was Brighton. And it was auctioned

00:17:56.450 --> 00:18:00.210
off. But it wasn't, he said he made this, he

00:18:00.210 --> 00:18:03.369
painted this, but it's AI. It's obviously AI.

00:18:03.730 --> 00:18:06.599
And I don't know if he printed it and then painted

00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:08.700
over it. But it's definitely like, you look at

00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:09.960
it and you're like, well, that monkey's got an

00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:12.039
extra paw and you know, the lettering is weird.

00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:15.980
And, and it was on BBC news is this like, and

00:18:15.980 --> 00:18:17.759
this guy from EastEnders has painted a picture

00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.059
of David Attenborough and it's low and the money's

00:18:20.059 --> 00:18:22.220
going to charity. It's lovely. And only 10 %

00:18:22.220 --> 00:18:24.119
of the money was going to charity. So it's already

00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:26.660
a bit, a bit dodgy. But, but I was just like,

00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:29.109
how is everyone how have they managed to frame

00:18:29.109 --> 00:18:31.069
this like this is a really nice charming thing

00:18:31.069 --> 00:18:33.970
when first of all, it's a horrible, like classic

00:18:33.970 --> 00:18:36.829
AI art kind of the colors are horrible. The whole

00:18:36.829 --> 00:18:39.730
thing's weird and gaudy. Really wonky. Yeah,

00:18:39.890 --> 00:18:43.170
yeah, definitely. And then you've managed to

00:18:43.170 --> 00:18:45.410
frame it like it's a good thing. Like, like this

00:18:45.410 --> 00:18:47.910
is and also as if we're all idiots, you can't

00:18:47.910 --> 00:18:52.130
tell that this is a very dystopian and also sad

00:18:52.130 --> 00:18:55.349
to as a way of celebrating someone who is very

00:18:55.349 --> 00:18:58.190
as Zoe Brede points out, pro nature, which is

00:18:58.190 --> 00:19:02.730
not what AI loves and, you know, likes real things

00:19:02.730 --> 00:19:06.630
like animals. Has there been much that I've not

00:19:06.630 --> 00:19:08.250
caught up with the story, but so that was on

00:19:08.250 --> 00:19:10.869
the BBC News. Yes. Has there been much discourse

00:19:10.869 --> 00:19:13.609
or response online to that pain thing? I think

00:19:13.609 --> 00:19:15.309
so. I don't, I mean, I need to go back and check

00:19:15.309 --> 00:19:17.369
when this happened. It was, I think within the

00:19:17.369 --> 00:19:19.650
last week, but obviously the comments on Sorry

00:19:19.650 --> 00:19:22.349
Brides thing was. you know, everyone was outraged

00:19:22.349 --> 00:19:24.769
and stuff. But I do feel like we live in a world

00:19:24.769 --> 00:19:29.210
where not enough people hate AI enough. Like

00:19:29.210 --> 00:19:31.250
I think a lot of people hate it. But I think

00:19:31.250 --> 00:19:35.509
we need to have a stronger, really visceral,

00:19:36.769 --> 00:19:39.150
like treat it like, I don't know, like it's a

00:19:39.150 --> 00:19:41.730
hate crime. Like every time someone brings it

00:19:41.730 --> 00:19:44.890
up, like they've said something really offensive,

00:19:45.069 --> 00:19:46.890
if they say they use AI, I think we should just

00:19:46.890 --> 00:19:49.430
treat them like, that is disgusting. I can't

00:19:49.430 --> 00:19:52.039
believe you do that. I wonder if like the AI

00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:56.779
art thing is still, you know, it was kind of

00:19:56.779 --> 00:19:58.200
trendy for a while, wasn't it? When people were

00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:00.339
like putting their profile pictures. And full

00:20:00.339 --> 00:20:02.420
disclosure, when it was first a thing like four

00:20:02.420 --> 00:20:04.980
years ago, maybe. Kind of fun to do. We all did

00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:08.440
it. I've got a weird AI picture of me as a fairy

00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:12.039
princess. Loved it. And then very quickly realized,

00:20:12.500 --> 00:20:13.980
first of all, you know, this is not good for

00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:16.099
artists. And second of all, like the pictures

00:20:16.099 --> 00:20:18.359
are kind of, you know, they've all got like a

00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:21.720
a tell, not just like they look weird, but that

00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:25.279
the style, you know, is the more AI is fed, the

00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:27.880
more homogenous it all gets. Because it's, it's

00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:29.740
got so much information now, it's kind of taking

00:20:29.740 --> 00:20:32.119
giving you the average of what every single artist

00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:34.200
in the world would do. So it's this very bland

00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:37.470
kind of thing that comes back. But we, me and

00:20:37.470 --> 00:20:39.049
my boyfriend, every time we're out and about,

00:20:39.289 --> 00:20:41.869
we will like play like, let's spot the AI arts

00:20:41.869 --> 00:20:43.930
because it's, you know, shops will use it as

00:20:43.930 --> 00:20:45.990
a cheap way to kind of create a thing. That's

00:20:45.990 --> 00:20:48.450
AI, that's AI. And then sometimes you can't tell

00:20:48.450 --> 00:20:50.630
and it's kind of creepy. Are you, are you an

00:20:50.630 --> 00:20:52.170
anti AI or are you going to come out suddenly

00:20:52.170 --> 00:20:56.710
as? Yeah, yeah. I fucking love it. No, I, I feel

00:20:56.710 --> 00:21:00.240
like it obviously has some positive applications

00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.079
that are quite specific, you know, in like medical

00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:05.660
research or, you know, dealing with massive data

00:21:05.660 --> 00:21:10.259
set for properly positive things. And there are

00:21:10.259 --> 00:21:12.220
things that can simplify that I have no issue

00:21:12.220 --> 00:21:15.359
with, but I wonder like specifically on the kind

00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:19.269
of AI generated art thing. I kind of wonder if

00:21:19.269 --> 00:21:22.109
we're at the, you know, it was really in fashion.

00:21:22.269 --> 00:21:24.250
Everyone was creating all these AI images and

00:21:24.250 --> 00:21:27.150
it was really fun. And like, I wonder if that's

00:21:27.150 --> 00:21:29.339
going to kind of we're going to, people are going

00:21:29.339 --> 00:21:32.119
to get bored of that because it's all the same

00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:34.059
aesthetic. This is what I'm saying. It's very

00:21:34.059 --> 00:21:36.599
same. It's like Farmville. Do you remember that

00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:38.740
on Facebook? At one point everybody was doing

00:21:38.740 --> 00:21:41.019
Farmville. It's getting hundreds of requests

00:21:41.019 --> 00:21:43.779
to Farmville and I don't think that happens anymore.

00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:45.500
It was just really on trend for a while. Well,

00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:47.099
this is awkward Zara. Actually we're all still

00:21:47.099 --> 00:21:49.480
very into Farmville, but we've decided not to

00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:54.230
ask you to play. But you know, I mean, I feel

00:21:54.230 --> 00:21:56.750
like, you know, maybe, I mean, I'm not saying

00:21:56.750 --> 00:21:58.990
that Farmville is equivalent in - No, I don't

00:21:58.990 --> 00:22:02.509
even know. It's a trend. Yeah. So I do think,

00:22:02.549 --> 00:22:05.390
I do think there was a point, I think we've luckily

00:22:05.390 --> 00:22:08.730
passed at this now, where certain people were

00:22:08.730 --> 00:22:11.890
like, AI is the future, AI is incredible. And

00:22:11.890 --> 00:22:15.410
I think we have passed the point where those

00:22:15.410 --> 00:22:17.809
people are quite so excited about it. And also

00:22:17.809 --> 00:22:19.670
like when it comes to creative stuff, is it not

00:22:19.670 --> 00:22:22.190
the case that it actually can't generate brand

00:22:22.190 --> 00:22:25.809
new ideas? No. So it just seems to churn out

00:22:25.809 --> 00:22:28.829
the same formulaic stuff. So again, you know,

00:22:29.109 --> 00:22:32.170
I just can't see it. I don't know what people

00:22:32.170 --> 00:22:35.690
get from it. Like as someone in terms of art,

00:22:35.849 --> 00:22:38.789
like if I see an AI painting the whole year,

00:22:39.650 --> 00:22:42.569
I feel like explaining why art is good to people

00:22:42.569 --> 00:22:44.920
is kind of like Well, if they don't get it, I

00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:46.279
don't think I'm going to make them get it. But

00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:48.839
you know, the whole point of a painting is knowing

00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:50.880
that a human being put thoughts and feelings

00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:53.039
and emotions into it. And that's why you get

00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:54.599
something out of it. And it's the same with music.

00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:57.059
And it's the same with. Yeah, that's what makes

00:22:57.059 --> 00:22:59.660
it moving. You know, the backstory behind something.

00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:02.200
It's like, what am I supposed to feel about this

00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:04.599
thing that nothing created? It's just really

00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:07.059
shallow aesthetics. And the aesthetics are horrible

00:23:07.059 --> 00:23:09.460
anyway. So I mean, I do love to rag on it. Like,

00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:12.339
I love to find like the Willy Wonka thing was

00:23:12.460 --> 00:23:14.640
Oh, that was a lot of fun. Do you remember that?

00:23:14.779 --> 00:23:17.059
Of course. That was a lot of fun. It's such a

00:23:17.059 --> 00:23:18.799
weird time in history. It really put Glasgow

00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:21.759
on the map. It really did. In a way that like

00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:25.000
as, as like, oh, that's the Willy Wonka place.

00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:29.480
I do think with AI, one kind of unavoidable thing

00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:33.839
is I get the impression that younger generations

00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:36.980
of people in high school right now are all using

00:23:36.980 --> 00:23:40.559
it and it's all normal to them. And I just wonder

00:23:41.139 --> 00:23:44.359
well, we might all be a bit, you know, are we

00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:47.319
being Luddites about this? You can cut this out

00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:49.779
if you're not allowed to, but do you deal with,

00:23:49.779 --> 00:23:52.559
do you deal with students at uni? Have you found

00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:57.299
AI as a problem? So I don't do, I do, um, I do

00:23:57.299 --> 00:23:59.460
do training and stuff with students. I don't

00:23:59.460 --> 00:24:03.400
do marking. And I think that is where it has

00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:06.180
had a big impact. People that do teaching and

00:24:06.180 --> 00:24:10.359
lecturing are noticing it. in essays, and I think

00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:12.200
they really miss a time when they could read

00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:14.279
something original that wasn't. It's so funny

00:24:14.279 --> 00:24:17.920
because like, when I was at uni, you know, you'd

00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:20.039
doze off and you'd not pay attention and you'd

00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:22.019
write a bad essay and the professor was like,

00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:24.400
oh, this is so annoying. And now I bet they'd

00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:27.440
love to have that kind of student, you know,

00:24:27.500 --> 00:24:29.400
just someone who at least was doing their own

00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:32.940
work and not copying it. But I just see something

00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:36.619
heartening. There was a commencement speech,

00:24:36.740 --> 00:24:39.099
I think it was maybe UCLA, somewhere in America.

00:24:39.940 --> 00:24:42.660
And the woman doing this, this graduation speech

00:24:42.660 --> 00:24:46.720
was talking about the benefits of AI and everyone

00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:48.799
started booing like really aggressively. And

00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:50.140
she was really taken aback. You could tell she

00:24:50.140 --> 00:24:52.220
was surprised. And that was kind of nice. It

00:24:52.220 --> 00:24:53.960
was like, I don't, I do think the kids are all

00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:55.700
right. I think you're always going to get people

00:24:55.700 --> 00:24:59.500
who use AI. But I think the thing is like, it's

00:24:59.500 --> 00:25:01.519
not even for our benefit that they should use

00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:04.029
it. not use it. It's for their benefit. Like

00:25:04.029 --> 00:25:06.450
at some point you're going to be like, I can't.

00:25:06.650 --> 00:25:08.950
Yeah. Your brain atrophy because you don't know

00:25:08.950 --> 00:25:11.670
how to do the most basic things like write an

00:25:11.670 --> 00:25:14.309
email. That's terrifying. It's like, you know,

00:25:14.349 --> 00:25:16.690
the whole, I did a couple of videos on it that,

00:25:16.769 --> 00:25:19.430
that did well, I think say that people felt the

00:25:19.430 --> 00:25:21.309
same as me, the whole idea that like, Oh, you

00:25:21.309 --> 00:25:22.809
don't want to be bothered writing emails. It's

00:25:22.809 --> 00:25:24.569
like, well, why do you want to be bothered doing

00:25:24.569 --> 00:25:26.269
anything? Why don't we all just lie on the floor

00:25:26.269 --> 00:25:28.809
all day? Like what's the point of being alive?

00:25:28.890 --> 00:25:31.130
You know, if you don't do stuff. I do understand

00:25:31.130 --> 00:25:33.789
making life easier, but there comes a point where

00:25:33.789 --> 00:25:35.690
you're like, if AI is doing everything for you,

00:25:35.690 --> 00:25:41.150
what are you doing? In a socialist utopia, the

00:25:41.150 --> 00:25:43.069
robots would do all the work and we'll create

00:25:43.069 --> 00:25:45.650
all the art, but we live in a capitalist hellhole,

00:25:45.789 --> 00:25:49.690
so it's the other way around. So I wonder, AI

00:25:49.690 --> 00:25:52.630
in the art specifically, is the onus maybe on

00:25:52.630 --> 00:25:56.710
the kind of organizations or funding bodies or

00:25:56.710 --> 00:26:01.099
whoever in the arts to to have policies in place.

00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:03.400
Like I noticed, for example, the 48 hour film

00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:07.640
projects have a no AI policy now. I think you

00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:09.819
need to make it embarrassing. I think you need

00:26:09.819 --> 00:26:11.920
to put like, I know there's also authors who

00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:14.000
put like a no AI content on their books. I think

00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:15.859
you need, yeah, you need to have a label that

00:26:15.859 --> 00:26:18.640
is like, you know, like a, like organic. Like

00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:21.099
it is organic. Yeah, it is organic. Oh, I like

00:26:21.099 --> 00:26:24.640
that. Organic art. I feel like you said, the

00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:27.000
kids are all right. There's enough of us out

00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:31.000
there that are you know, being vocal and critiquing

00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:33.359
it. Organizations are starting to come out against

00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:38.259
it. I think we can get through this. I think,

00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:40.519
you know, ultimately as you said, it's the human

00:26:40.519 --> 00:26:42.759
stories, the human experience that usually makes

00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:44.980
art compelling that will make you, I just can't

00:26:44.980 --> 00:26:48.240
see anything written by AI making me cry or making

00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:50.000
me laugh. Like I don't know if you've ever seen

00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.920
some of the comedy that comes out of it. And

00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:53.440
I've noticed recently, I was reading something

00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:56.640
today online and there was a joke in it that

00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:59.960
I just thought that is so Clearly AI, it was

00:26:59.960 --> 00:27:03.160
so formulaic. There's a phrase that someone did

00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:05.539
an article about that it's very AI. It's like,

00:27:05.779 --> 00:27:08.660
it's not X, it's Y. So if you see, if you see

00:27:08.660 --> 00:27:10.859
something that's, I don't know, like, it's not

00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:13.579
a timepiece. It's a way of life. If you see some

00:27:13.579 --> 00:27:16.599
of that phrase, it feels very like AI wrote that.

00:27:16.599 --> 00:27:18.759
Yeah, exactly. It's if meh -meh -meh, meh -meh

00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:33.750
-meh -meh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so basic. Even

00:27:33.750 --> 00:27:36.390
if AI is not going to be the tool, I do think

00:27:36.390 --> 00:27:41.269
there's just a lack of investment in in art and

00:27:41.269 --> 00:27:45.569
the worthiness of art that society has. Yeah.

00:27:46.670 --> 00:27:49.190
And, you know, I mean, that's when has that not

00:27:49.190 --> 00:27:52.430
been the case? Yeah, I suppose. Yeah. I mean,

00:27:52.589 --> 00:27:54.470
comedy in particular that you mentioned before,

00:27:54.470 --> 00:27:58.210
it hasn't historically been considered a high

00:27:58.210 --> 00:28:01.130
art. You still can't get funding for comedy unless

00:28:01.130 --> 00:28:04.259
you kind of sell it as a you have to have some

00:28:04.259 --> 00:28:07.079
kind of theme or what, you know, you can't just

00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:10.059
make one of my people laugh. Yeah, I did notice

00:28:10.059 --> 00:28:12.900
during the comedy festival, Krista, the director

00:28:12.900 --> 00:28:16.640
speaking out about that. There was an article,

00:28:16.759 --> 00:28:18.339
I think it was maybe in the Scotsman and it was

00:28:18.339 --> 00:28:23.200
about how you know, about exactly that, how funding

00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:26.319
isn't really available to support. It's like

00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:28.160
if the audience is enjoying it a lot, that must

00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:29.940
mean it's not real art because we all know real

00:28:29.940 --> 00:28:33.880
art is boring. Yeah. Highbrow and boring. And

00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:36.619
that's why I mean, I'm, I'm very lucky in that

00:28:36.619 --> 00:28:39.200
I did get creative Scotland funding to do some

00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:42.180
comedy a couple of years ago, but it was very

00:28:42.180 --> 00:28:45.289
much in that character comedy. more theatrical

00:28:45.289 --> 00:28:48.349
space. I did use the funding to pay stand ups.

00:28:49.490 --> 00:28:52.470
But I wonder if maybe there is an element of

00:28:52.470 --> 00:28:55.069
comedians feeling like that sort of funding,

00:28:55.289 --> 00:29:03.009
arts funding isn't for them. approach in comedy

00:29:03.009 --> 00:29:06.230
where some people are very like, what I do is

00:29:06.230 --> 00:29:07.869
art. And some people are like, this isn't art.

00:29:07.990 --> 00:29:10.089
I refuse to say this is art. Because, you know,

00:29:10.210 --> 00:29:11.849
it's a sort of like reverse snobbery where they're

00:29:11.849 --> 00:29:14.250
like, I'm not doing art. I'm just making people

00:29:14.250 --> 00:29:15.569
laugh. And it's like, yeah, that's fine. But

00:29:15.569 --> 00:29:18.230
like, do you want more money to do that? Yeah,

00:29:18.349 --> 00:29:20.769
Sean McLaughlin did a really funny bit in his

00:29:20.769 --> 00:29:24.609
tour show that I saw at McCuntliff Festival the

00:29:24.609 --> 00:29:26.329
other weekend, where he talks about the fact

00:29:26.329 --> 00:29:29.950
that Winston Churchill didn't defund the arts

00:29:29.950 --> 00:29:32.349
during the war, like he kept the money for the

00:29:32.349 --> 00:29:33.869
arts. And when everyone else was like, what are

00:29:33.869 --> 00:29:35.789
you doing? He was like, if we don't have art,

00:29:35.869 --> 00:29:37.970
what are we fighting for? Yeah. And then obviously

00:29:37.970 --> 00:29:41.009
undermines that by saying that, you know, like

00:29:41.009 --> 00:29:42.829
doing his own stand up and being like, is this

00:29:42.829 --> 00:29:44.490
what Churchill was fighting for? But the point

00:29:44.490 --> 00:29:47.650
stands that, you know, that the people have not

00:29:47.650 --> 00:29:51.369
considered comedy art, even though, and you know,

00:29:51.569 --> 00:29:54.109
even if there is any kind of psychological barrier

00:29:54.109 --> 00:29:55.769
to like, oh, that arts funding isn't for me.

00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:58.900
I suppose reality is when you go to do your funding

00:29:58.900 --> 00:30:01.519
application at the moment, comedy isn't included

00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:05.240
as a box. You know, you have to take other or

00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:07.960
theater or if you're in musical comedy, maybe

00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:11.099
music. I think that there's a kind of like system

00:30:11.099 --> 00:30:14.339
based problem there or process problem that is

00:30:14.339 --> 00:30:17.240
putting up a barrier. I also think, um, it helps

00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:19.819
me getting really on my high horse. I think anything

00:30:19.819 --> 00:30:23.700
that working class people enjoy is not considered

00:30:23.700 --> 00:30:26.579
art and working class people don't enjoy all

00:30:26.579 --> 00:30:28.440
comedy, but working class people certainly enjoy

00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:32.099
a lot of comedy. And I'm not saying working class

00:30:32.099 --> 00:30:34.339
people don't also enjoy high art, but I think

00:30:34.339 --> 00:30:36.559
the conception is like, if it's something you

00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:38.980
can go and watch on a Saturday night, and get

00:30:38.980 --> 00:30:40.660
a bit drunk when you're watching it, it can't

00:30:40.660 --> 00:30:44.099
be art. And I think there's this really weird

00:30:44.099 --> 00:30:46.940
attitude we have where yeah, like, the more fun

00:30:46.940 --> 00:30:49.240
you're having, the less this must be art. Yeah,

00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:51.960
you've got to only you can only be very serious

00:30:51.960 --> 00:30:55.180
and having a very boring time, not that No, the

00:30:55.180 --> 00:30:56.579
high art is boring either. I don't want to get

00:30:56.579 --> 00:30:59.279
in a Timothy Chalamet trap here. Okay. Yeah.

00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:03.259
Be careful. Cancelation pending. But I think,

00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:06.779
yeah, the, I think there, there is a class problem

00:31:06.779 --> 00:31:09.259
clearly even, even in kind of accessing that

00:31:09.259 --> 00:31:10.839
funding. Yeah. Like Darren McGarvey has been

00:31:10.839 --> 00:31:12.779
very critical of this before as well. You know,

00:31:13.019 --> 00:31:16.339
like I was able to apply for that funding to

00:31:16.339 --> 00:31:18.859
create Scotland because I work in a university.

00:31:18.859 --> 00:31:21.480
I've got, I know the language of funding applications

00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:24.119
and that's a skill of you know, benefit from

00:31:24.119 --> 00:31:28.259
it and be able to apply. And if you're not in

00:31:28.259 --> 00:31:30.980
academia or that world, or the theater world,

00:31:31.059 --> 00:31:33.380
which is also sets you up for that kind of funding

00:31:33.380 --> 00:31:36.740
as well. Yeah. So that could be a barrier for

00:31:36.740 --> 00:31:38.160
some people. I don't know that do creative school.

00:31:38.299 --> 00:31:39.680
I think creative school and have got quite a

00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:42.940
lot of them, you know, access support if you

00:31:42.940 --> 00:31:46.420
do need support apply for that funding. But well,

00:31:46.619 --> 00:31:49.140
the other thing is leading into this, which might

00:31:49.140 --> 00:31:51.200
be a positive, but we'll see if it happens is

00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:56.839
this whole artists universal income. Yes, universal

00:31:56.839 --> 00:31:59.759
basic income, which they are floating at the

00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:02.680
moment. Yes, very exciting. It would be really

00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:05.619
exciting if that happened. I know that they have

00:32:05.619 --> 00:32:08.589
it in Ireland because my friend Michael uh, benefited

00:32:08.589 --> 00:32:11.809
from it. Michael Fry. He might be appearing on,

00:32:12.029 --> 00:32:13.829
he's another, I don't want to categorize him

00:32:13.829 --> 00:32:16.589
as another overthinker, but also he's very much

00:32:16.589 --> 00:32:19.269
an overthinker. Part of our community. He is

00:32:19.269 --> 00:32:21.309
absolutely an overthinker. But yeah, amazing

00:32:21.309 --> 00:32:24.529
Irish comedian. And he, so he has been part of

00:32:24.529 --> 00:32:26.390
that program. And I think that has really helped

00:32:26.390 --> 00:32:28.789
him in the last few years to just keep making

00:32:28.789 --> 00:32:32.529
stuff and doing stuff and being also like, you

00:32:32.529 --> 00:32:35.849
know, with that funding means he can stay in

00:32:35.849 --> 00:32:37.990
Dublin and contribute to the Dublin economy and

00:32:37.990 --> 00:32:41.589
not do what most of us have done or thought about

00:32:41.589 --> 00:32:43.369
doing, which is move to London. Yeah, you know,

00:32:43.369 --> 00:32:45.369
it's so frustrating when people kind of like

00:32:45.369 --> 00:32:48.890
they, the idea is you have to be in London, and,

00:32:49.130 --> 00:32:51.509
and you try not to be in London. And then, you

00:32:51.509 --> 00:32:54.089
know, all the stuff is in London. Well, how was

00:32:54.089 --> 00:32:56.650
this? I had this really interesting anecdote

00:32:56.650 --> 00:32:58.150
a couple of years ago, and I can't remember who

00:32:58.150 --> 00:33:00.450
told it to me. But it was a kind of story from

00:33:00.450 --> 00:33:04.059
days of yore in the 90s, where the BBC wanted

00:33:04.059 --> 00:33:06.819
to do more regional stuff. So they invited a

00:33:06.819 --> 00:33:08.400
bunch of people to come to this big meeting in

00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:12.000
London about regional comedy or whatever. And

00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:13.619
the woman in charge was like, so who here actually

00:33:13.619 --> 00:33:16.619
lives outside of London? And nobody put their

00:33:16.619 --> 00:33:18.299
hand up. And she was like, oh, that's really

00:33:18.299 --> 00:33:21.220
annoying. You know, I really wanted someone from

00:33:21.220 --> 00:33:23.799
the regions. And it was someone like Paul Whitehouse

00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:26.640
went, well, we all had to move here because this

00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:28.819
is where all work is, you know, it's just this

00:33:28.819 --> 00:33:31.660
sort of endless circle of like, lack of, lack

00:33:31.660 --> 00:33:33.839
of money in anywhere but London means people

00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:37.440
are not staying in those places and giving, you

00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:39.299
know, and I think there's a real, quite a kind

00:33:39.299 --> 00:33:42.059
of hostile attitude as well that people have

00:33:42.059 --> 00:33:46.019
about certain Scots will, you know, they'll leave.

00:33:46.719 --> 00:33:49.140
leave Scotland to make money and people will

00:33:49.140 --> 00:33:50.980
be a bit snobby about that. And it's like, you

00:33:50.980 --> 00:33:54.160
can't judge people for that. That's where they

00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:55.799
are. So many opportunities are like you say,

00:33:55.900 --> 00:33:57.960
it's really hard. Yeah. But yeah, I think on

00:33:57.960 --> 00:33:59.640
the positive, like you say, I think this is very

00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:02.039
exciting. Yes. I think it could be really good

00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:06.220
for the Scottish creative industries. So if outside

00:34:06.220 --> 00:34:08.960
of that, the kind of funding and opportunities

00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:12.880
landscape in Scotland, I think one thing that

00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:16.019
one positive in recent years is that there, there

00:34:16.019 --> 00:34:19.480
is a kind of DIY scene that's, that's really

00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:22.300
burgeoning. I think a lot of that we've seen

00:34:22.300 --> 00:34:25.440
come from tech talk and people, you know, making

00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:27.599
the, you know, you just need a phone. You don't

00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:29.340
need loads and loads of money. And you know,

00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:31.739
through that people have been able to get exposure

00:34:31.739 --> 00:34:34.880
and get more opportunities. You've got lots,

00:34:34.980 --> 00:34:37.199
so many people starting podcasts. I hear, you

00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:39.800
know, seizing the means of production. It's like,

00:34:40.090 --> 00:34:42.090
Yeah, we get it. We've all got to have a podcast.

00:34:42.650 --> 00:34:45.630
Yeah. Yeah. And I will say the difference between

00:34:45.630 --> 00:34:47.630
when I started comedy, which is 16 years ago

00:34:47.630 --> 00:34:53.309
this month. Wow. Happy anniversary. 16. Teenager.

00:34:53.570 --> 00:34:55.789
I was I was 18. Yeah. So you can work out my

00:34:55.789 --> 00:34:58.949
age from the math. I'm 34. But the when I started

00:34:58.949 --> 00:35:01.909
and now the difference in definitely the Scottish

00:35:01.909 --> 00:35:04.630
scene, I think is overall net positive. Definitely.

00:35:04.750 --> 00:35:06.409
I think it's much more diverse. I think it's

00:35:06.409 --> 00:35:10.230
a lot more women. I still feel like even when

00:35:10.230 --> 00:35:14.889
I was 16, 18 back in 2010, there was, I would

00:35:14.889 --> 00:35:16.610
be the only, I'm sure you felt this too, the

00:35:16.610 --> 00:35:19.510
only woman on the bill so much of the time. And

00:35:19.510 --> 00:35:23.369
even then that was considered like progress because

00:35:23.369 --> 00:35:27.489
there was a woman on the bill. So I think we

00:35:27.489 --> 00:35:29.809
do, we have come a long way and it is really

00:35:29.809 --> 00:35:33.050
nice to see as well a lot more experimentation

00:35:33.050 --> 00:35:35.610
and people doing different things. I think, I

00:35:35.610 --> 00:35:37.769
suppose my thing is... you know, as much as it

00:35:37.769 --> 00:35:39.690
always feels like it's getting worse, it's getting

00:35:39.690 --> 00:35:42.829
better at the same time. Yeah. I think community

00:35:42.829 --> 00:35:47.070
is something that I've, I don't know. I think

00:35:47.070 --> 00:35:49.829
I've always been felt a little bit outside of

00:35:49.829 --> 00:35:54.050
the kind of comedy scene in a way. And maybe

00:35:54.050 --> 00:35:56.409
that has partly to do with gender or like the

00:35:56.409 --> 00:35:59.250
type of comedy that I do. And I feel similar.

00:35:59.530 --> 00:36:02.639
I think we both feel very much insecure. No,

00:36:02.780 --> 00:36:05.679
we're not. Um, but you know, I think historically

00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:07.639
or, you know, or maybe not even that long ago,

00:36:07.739 --> 00:36:09.239
I felt like a little bit of an outsider, but

00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:12.159
actually I feel like I'm increasingly finding

00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:16.099
this community. in Scotland and beyond via tech

00:36:16.099 --> 00:36:18.920
talk as well of people who are similar minded

00:36:18.920 --> 00:36:22.480
and who are so supportive. It's also like a business

00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:24.539
where it's so easy to be like, I'm the only one

00:36:24.539 --> 00:36:26.780
doing badly or I'm the only one who feels like

00:36:26.780 --> 00:36:29.420
my six, I'm not doing well, whatever it is. And

00:36:29.420 --> 00:36:31.780
it's also funny because that's how everyone feels

00:36:31.780 --> 00:36:33.900
constantly. But yeah, it's weird how we're bad

00:36:33.900 --> 00:36:35.619
at admitting it sometimes. I think especially

00:36:35.619 --> 00:36:38.239
in Scotland, I think we, we really have to kind

00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:40.639
of like, you know, this, you can't, it's just

00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:42.179
kind of the tool poppy thing. You can't, you

00:36:42.179 --> 00:36:45.219
can't both too much. Yeah. But you also can't

00:36:45.219 --> 00:36:47.719
admit when things are terrible either. Yeah.

00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:51.900
Um, I feel like stoic basically. Yeah. Very Scottish

00:36:51.900 --> 00:36:55.420
thing to be. I wonder if maybe part of the kind

00:36:55.420 --> 00:36:59.000
of feeling as an outsider sometimes comes from,

00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:02.159
I do a lot of tick tock you do as well. I mean,

00:37:02.460 --> 00:37:04.989
you get way more than me, but I don't actually

00:37:04.989 --> 00:37:07.409
see people in person that often. And then when

00:37:07.409 --> 00:37:10.650
I do see people in person, it's so lovely and

00:37:10.650 --> 00:37:14.190
everyone is so welcoming. And it kind of, as

00:37:14.190 --> 00:37:16.429
you say on social media, you can see stuff online

00:37:16.429 --> 00:37:18.610
and you can get in your own head about stuff.

00:37:19.590 --> 00:37:24.449
Eleanor's not like my post. She hates me. Yeah,

00:37:24.590 --> 00:37:26.730
no, totally. And I think that's why I do enjoy

00:37:26.730 --> 00:37:29.650
the fringe for all its faults because you are

00:37:29.650 --> 00:37:31.929
as much as it can be very stressful. You are

00:37:31.929 --> 00:37:35.079
also like with other people doing what you both

00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:38.219
really enjoy or really enjoy doing. And, you

00:37:38.219 --> 00:37:40.500
know, you're not just online promoting and stuff

00:37:40.500 --> 00:37:41.780
and waiting for things. You're doing it. You

00:37:41.780 --> 00:37:43.460
get to do it every day and you get to be in it.

00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:46.840
And, and that is really nice. Um, even if it

00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:48.719
also makes you have a tiny little breakdown.

00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:50.880
Yeah, I did the fringe for the first time last

00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:54.260
year. And I, well, funnily enough, like I, I

00:37:54.260 --> 00:37:56.340
think in my head, I was like, I'll go to the

00:37:56.340 --> 00:37:58.280
fringe and I'll be like, partying all the time,

00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:00.579
like doing karaoke and all that. I didn't do

00:38:00.579 --> 00:38:03.659
that. Yeah. But I did feel like part of a community.

00:38:03.900 --> 00:38:05.699
It was, it was nice. And I did see people in

00:38:05.699 --> 00:38:07.880
person and I saw so many great shows and I was

00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:11.500
like, okay, I feel like a legitimate person.

00:38:12.019 --> 00:38:14.500
I love meeting, um, comedians from like America

00:38:14.500 --> 00:38:17.099
and Australia as well at the fringe, like welcome

00:38:17.099 --> 00:38:20.639
to my setting. Um, it's just, it's very, it's

00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:24.380
such a novelty to see like people here from the

00:38:24.380 --> 00:38:26.940
comedy scene. the worldwide comedy scene. How

00:38:26.940 --> 00:38:29.639
are you feeling about the spiral? I genuinely

00:38:29.639 --> 00:38:32.840
feel better. Okay. That's so weird. Isn't that

00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:35.480
funny? I feel good. I feel part of community.

00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:38.019
I'm not worried about AI. I think, you know,

00:38:38.219 --> 00:38:40.900
there's enough of us. that are resisting and

00:38:40.900 --> 00:38:43.840
people are going to get bored. There's only so

00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:46.019
many weird pictures of David Attenborough we

00:38:46.019 --> 00:38:48.239
can stand. Exactly. We're going to all have our

00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:51.840
universal basic income and opportunities are

00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:53.800
going to flow. I think we're going to be fine.

00:38:55.059 --> 00:38:58.179
We're part of a DIY scene and we're living it.

00:39:07.820 --> 00:39:10.980
This is a part of the podcast where we get someone

00:39:10.980 --> 00:39:14.539
else's problem for you to solve, Eleanor. Good

00:39:14.539 --> 00:39:18.079
thing I'm a qualified psychotherapist. Indeed.

00:39:19.699 --> 00:39:22.260
Totally safe, what we're doing here. Because

00:39:22.260 --> 00:39:23.679
this is the first episode, we're going to do

00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:26.179
something special and I'm going to phone a friend.

00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:29.420
So the person I'm going to phone is my friend

00:39:29.420 --> 00:39:33.880
Jack. Jack lives in Paris, so he is my French

00:39:33.880 --> 00:39:37.929
correspondent. He is somebody who I do tell my

00:39:37.929 --> 00:39:41.530
problems to and face versa. And he's definitely

00:39:41.530 --> 00:39:44.570
a good person for this podcast. So let me just

00:39:44.570 --> 00:39:48.389
give him a call. This is quite exciting. I've

00:39:48.389 --> 00:39:52.630
never done a live call on a podcast. Oh my God.

00:39:53.469 --> 00:40:00.239
Oh, hello. Hello. Hi. Or should we say bonjour?

00:40:00.519 --> 00:40:04.440
Bonjour. Oh, that was great pronunciation. Well

00:40:04.440 --> 00:40:07.619
done, Eleanor. Stop it. No, stop it. How's it

00:40:07.619 --> 00:40:11.570
going in Paris just now? Good, thank you. I'm

00:40:11.570 --> 00:40:14.690
just back from seeing Devil Rears Prada 2. Oh,

00:40:14.829 --> 00:40:18.630
what do you think? Which I absolutely loved so

00:40:18.630 --> 00:40:20.170
much. Really? It's good fun. Did you not like

00:40:20.170 --> 00:40:22.789
it? No, I've not seen it yet. I loved the first

00:40:22.789 --> 00:40:27.050
one. So is the boyfriend still in it that everyone

00:40:27.050 --> 00:40:31.079
hates? No. No, he gone. No, no. Okay. Yeah. There's

00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:33.800
like the main big stars and then there's no one

00:40:33.800 --> 00:40:35.380
else really from the first one. Okay. I just

00:40:35.380 --> 00:40:38.179
remember him making that cheese sandwich. There's

00:40:38.179 --> 00:40:41.719
like five pounds of Jarlsberg in that. Is that

00:40:41.719 --> 00:40:44.400
a bigger deal in America than here? Because is

00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:46.860
Jarlsberg very expensive? I think it is quite

00:40:46.860 --> 00:40:48.320
expensive. Okay. I don't think I've ever bought

00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:51.139
it. I have bought it because of Devil Wears Prada.

00:40:51.639 --> 00:40:54.679
Yeah. You've been influenced. Of course. Please

00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:59.519
just the boyfriend. Anyway, sorry. Enough chit

00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:02.960
chat. Love a discussion of expensive cheese.

00:41:04.500 --> 00:41:07.139
I do want to see the sequel. I'll try and do

00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:12.079
that soon. But anyway, I've called you because

00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:13.900
you're someone who sometimes shares problems

00:41:13.900 --> 00:41:17.960
with me and I thought it would be fun and therapeutic

00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:20.900
for you to share a problem with us today and

00:41:20.900 --> 00:41:22.440
we will chat it through and Eleanor is going

00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:24.619
to help you through this. I am here. I'm off

00:41:24.619 --> 00:41:28.670
screen, but I'm here lurking. Okay, well, my

00:41:28.670 --> 00:41:32.369
problem is more like a grievance. It's in my

00:41:32.369 --> 00:41:34.630
professional life, so it's at work. Right. So

00:41:34.630 --> 00:41:37.409
I work in I have an office job, we'll say I work

00:41:37.409 --> 00:41:41.530
in an office. And as most people who work in

00:41:41.530 --> 00:41:44.989
offices will have noticed, there's the creeping

00:41:44.989 --> 00:41:49.489
use presence of AI in our in our jobs. So I'm

00:41:49.489 --> 00:41:50.829
going to put out there that this is what that

00:41:50.829 --> 00:41:53.630
concerns is AI. Crazy that you're talking about

00:41:53.630 --> 00:41:57.289
AI, but continue. No, no, sorry. I'm coming cold

00:41:57.289 --> 00:42:02.690
into this podcast. Yeah, sorry. Anyway, so I

00:42:02.690 --> 00:42:04.550
have a colleague who I actually share an office

00:42:04.550 --> 00:42:07.469
with. So obviously, already, that's like a lot

00:42:07.469 --> 00:42:10.269
of, you know, exposure to this women's women,

00:42:10.769 --> 00:42:14.340
a female colleague. And so the issue really is

00:42:14.340 --> 00:42:19.059
that this person is using a chat GPT beyond what

00:42:19.059 --> 00:42:21.159
I would consider like a reasonable amount. So

00:42:21.159 --> 00:42:24.199
she will filter every single email that she sends

00:42:24.199 --> 00:42:28.559
through chat GPT. Very, it's very obvious to

00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:31.179
anyone who knows all the sort of hallmarks of

00:42:31.179 --> 00:42:35.099
an AI piece of text. She will filter all her

00:42:35.099 --> 00:42:38.619
responses through chat GPT. So it's mad. It's

00:42:38.619 --> 00:42:41.139
like incredibly annoying. So there's that aspect

00:42:41.139 --> 00:42:43.679
of it, where she you're dealing with a robot

00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:48.019
as a colleague. She's taking it upon herself

00:42:48.019 --> 00:42:50.820
to become like the social nexus of our team.

00:42:50.920 --> 00:42:52.760
Like she's the person who's she wants, she wants

00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:54.579
everyone to come to lunch, she set up this team's

00:42:54.579 --> 00:42:57.300
chat called lunch and chill. And in that chat,

00:42:57.300 --> 00:42:59.619
she sends like, every time a new person joins

00:42:59.619 --> 00:43:02.849
the team. she sends a message written by Chachi

00:43:02.849 --> 00:43:06.230
BT that's like, here, we don't talk, no work

00:43:06.230 --> 00:43:08.929
talk here. Oh my God. All we care about is food,

00:43:09.070 --> 00:43:11.210
but like really cheesy and Chachi BT like worse

00:43:11.210 --> 00:43:16.050
than that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean,

00:43:17.170 --> 00:43:18.750
my problem is really just that I'm at my limit

00:43:18.750 --> 00:43:25.250
with it. So the social social convener robot

00:43:25.250 --> 00:43:29.849
is insane. Sadly, I mean, sadly, the idea of

00:43:29.849 --> 00:43:32.050
having a robot friend is that she sounds really

00:43:32.050 --> 00:43:36.409
fun, but the reality is deeply boring. So already

00:43:36.409 --> 00:43:39.550
it's, you know, can you give an example of like

00:43:39.550 --> 00:43:42.710
what she might post then in like the social team

00:43:42.710 --> 00:43:46.360
site? Uh, yes. Yes. It doesn't need to be a real

00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:49.239
example, but I'm just, I'd love it if it was.

00:43:49.539 --> 00:43:51.539
Yeah. Okay. Let me find what if I just scroll

00:43:51.539 --> 00:43:53.880
up. I mean, it's just very, it's the whole thing

00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:57.300
is like foods. So she's, she'll send when, when,

00:43:57.300 --> 00:43:59.639
when it's approaching 1230, which is maybe don't

00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:01.360
read it out exactly in case there's some kind

00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:05.760
of information, but you could like paraphrase.

00:44:05.960 --> 00:44:08.360
Yeah, I suppose this is, this problem is compounded

00:44:08.360 --> 00:44:11.369
by the fact that she, I find her decision to

00:44:11.369 --> 00:44:14.170
be the person who organises like what the team

00:44:14.170 --> 00:44:17.030
is going to do at lunchtime. I find it like quite

00:44:17.030 --> 00:44:20.869
a front. Do you feel like you can't say I'm going

00:44:20.869 --> 00:44:23.610
for a walk by myself like you have? Oh my god.

00:44:24.190 --> 00:44:26.769
There's so much there's so much pressure and

00:44:26.769 --> 00:44:29.570
and also she finds it really weird when you say

00:44:29.570 --> 00:44:32.820
no and then on the flip side she doesn't ever

00:44:32.820 --> 00:44:35.440
come for any social things after after work finish.

00:44:35.559 --> 00:44:36.860
She will never come for an after work drink.

00:44:36.980 --> 00:44:40.199
She's like out the door. She wants to she wants

00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:43.760
everybody to have lunch with her. Yeah. And it's

00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:46.739
just like she'll send a message at like 1220

00:44:46.739 --> 00:44:48.380
because she's decided that's the time that we

00:44:48.380 --> 00:44:50.460
should go for lunch is 1230. So 10 minutes before

00:44:50.460 --> 00:44:54.679
she'd be like in a chat GPT tone like my stuff

00:44:54.679 --> 00:45:00.269
looks like my tummy's And I should also say that

00:45:00.269 --> 00:45:02.730
this woman, um, which is no shade, but it maybe

00:45:02.730 --> 00:45:05.250
explains a bit more like her first, her native

00:45:05.250 --> 00:45:07.010
language is not English and she doesn't speak

00:45:07.010 --> 00:45:11.789
amazing English. So she's relying on this. But

00:45:11.789 --> 00:45:13.690
I have seen her, she's she's a French native

00:45:13.690 --> 00:45:15.489
speaker, I have seen her use it in French as

00:45:15.489 --> 00:45:21.210
well. Oh, she's French, say no more, say no more.

00:45:21.469 --> 00:45:22.889
Well, if you want to go down that route like

00:45:22.889 --> 00:45:26.849
we didn't stay here all day. No, no, no. Obviously

00:45:26.849 --> 00:45:30.269
love the French, just no libel. Love the French.

00:45:31.010 --> 00:45:35.489
I knew I had a I had a friend of friends. She

00:45:35.489 --> 00:45:37.170
wasn't my friend, but she was the friend of some

00:45:37.170 --> 00:45:40.380
friends and she would put things in their Google

00:45:40.380 --> 00:45:42.380
calendar, like she somehow got access to it.

00:45:42.440 --> 00:45:45.619
Not a work friend, like a social friend. She

00:45:45.619 --> 00:45:48.039
would put things in their work calendars, sorry,

00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:50.460
in their Google calendars like... But without

00:45:50.460 --> 00:45:52.119
asking they would just, it would just appear

00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:55.059
like lunch on Sunday or something. Whoa. It was

00:45:55.059 --> 00:45:56.780
incredible. And I don't know how they put up

00:45:56.780 --> 00:45:58.360
for it for as long as they did because it freaked

00:45:58.360 --> 00:46:00.719
me out. So I get, I think I get where you're

00:46:00.719 --> 00:46:03.420
coming from. Yeah. That's a whole next level.

00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:05.519
I hope she never gets there. That's like quite

00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:07.760
alarming. So Eleanor, know how you feel about

00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:10.340
AI? Yeah. How? This is going to look like you

00:46:10.340 --> 00:46:12.820
set this up. It is weird actually that it's kind

00:46:12.820 --> 00:46:16.400
of worked out this way. But okay. You've heard

00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:18.599
Jack's problem. What are we going to do about

00:46:18.599 --> 00:46:21.219
it? What do you think? I think, as always, the

00:46:21.219 --> 00:46:23.039
healthiest and most mature thing to do is to

00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:26.940
be very passive aggressive. Jack's going to love

00:46:26.940 --> 00:46:32.039
this. I suggest peppering into your correspondence

00:46:32.039 --> 00:46:34.800
with her or any kind of thing that you think

00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:38.619
she'll see links to suggestions about AI being

00:46:38.619 --> 00:46:43.929
bad or potentially giving your... computer bugs

00:46:43.929 --> 00:46:45.949
or something, even if that's not true. I think

00:46:45.949 --> 00:46:48.329
shame is the best way to get people out of AI.

00:46:48.670 --> 00:46:51.030
And you know, you're gonna have to be very subtle

00:46:51.030 --> 00:46:53.570
so that she doesn't feel it's obvious, but just

00:46:53.570 --> 00:46:56.909
somehow bring things up that suggest that AI

00:46:56.909 --> 00:47:01.429
is like, studies show people who use AI are stupid

00:47:01.429 --> 00:47:03.190
monkey brains. I don't know, something like that.

00:47:03.309 --> 00:47:07.969
Just something that's like, this is bad. keep

00:47:07.969 --> 00:47:10.989
that in her orbit, like the cognitive decline.

00:47:11.070 --> 00:47:13.429
Yeah, like, Oh, did anyone see this really interesting

00:47:13.429 --> 00:47:17.710
article about about how it makes you stupid or

00:47:17.710 --> 00:47:21.050
whatever? And, you know, she probably thinks

00:47:21.050 --> 00:47:23.750
that you don't haven't clocked that she's using

00:47:23.750 --> 00:47:26.130
AI. She probably thinks it's because her brain's

00:47:26.130 --> 00:47:29.469
already atrophied, so she doesn't have that capacity.

00:47:32.009 --> 00:47:34.210
Yeah, yeah, like, I just just I won't read the

00:47:34.210 --> 00:47:35.389
actual email, but I've got email in front of

00:47:35.389 --> 00:47:36.969
you just to give you like a couple of phrases.

00:47:37.050 --> 00:47:39.369
Yeah, clearly AI, given that this woman is not

00:47:39.369 --> 00:47:42.230
a native English speaker. I had basically replied

00:47:42.230 --> 00:47:44.349
and copy turned to an email, which is a bit passag.

00:47:44.369 --> 00:47:47.869
But I had said, I think actually, it was Sandra,

00:47:47.969 --> 00:47:51.130
not her real name, who took care of this. Maybe

00:47:51.130 --> 00:47:52.869
she can give you more information about this.

00:47:52.889 --> 00:47:55.289
Like I was quite casual. And then her reply was

00:47:55.289 --> 00:47:57.809
like, I would like to confirm that she's a bit

00:47:57.809 --> 00:48:01.119
weirdly formal. At this stage. for reference,

00:48:01.579 --> 00:48:04.679
if my memory serves me well." And then she closed

00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:07.039
it by saying, that being said, I will leave it

00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:10.019
to you to coordinate this. Please feel free to

00:48:10.019 --> 00:48:12.519
keep me updated in any progress. It was just

00:48:12.519 --> 00:48:14.780
very formal. And that's kind of a bad example,

00:48:14.940 --> 00:48:16.239
because I mean, it's obviously definitely...

00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:18.840
No, but that is like if an alien... wanted to

00:48:18.840 --> 00:48:22.960
sound like it did business. Can I out you Jack

00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:25.639
about that one example where you did use AI on

00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:27.619
your email because it's the funniest thing ever.

00:48:28.579 --> 00:48:32.139
Do you want to tell it? Or will I tell it? You

00:48:32.139 --> 00:48:35.320
tell it. Maybe you tell it. Okay. Well, I'll

00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:41.679
tell it. Okay. Yeah. So Jack sent an email. He

00:48:41.679 --> 00:48:43.960
put it through chat, GBT or whatever. And he

00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:46.019
realized after he'd send the email that he'd

00:48:46.019 --> 00:48:52.880
addressed. esteemed colleagues. It was like a

00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:55.559
really sensitive email and I was like, I'll just

00:48:55.559 --> 00:48:58.039
make sure this is the right tone. I think it

00:48:58.039 --> 00:49:00.840
was in the early days of Chachibiki before he,

00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:05.059
she, it knew me well. So it just inserted like

00:49:05.059 --> 00:49:07.340
esteemed colleagues. That was the beginning of

00:49:07.340 --> 00:49:11.380
it. I think people should start adding Esquire

00:49:11.380 --> 00:49:15.699
onto the end of things again. It's very Victorian.

00:49:21.170 --> 00:49:23.389
English teacher called it, isn't it? Anyway,

00:49:23.730 --> 00:49:26.329
sorry. Okay. So I think, I think we've got some

00:49:26.329 --> 00:49:29.429
good advice. So we're thinking in emails to her,

00:49:29.449 --> 00:49:31.449
or is this going to be like a nice communal group

00:49:31.449 --> 00:49:34.670
chat? You're like in the team. Okay. Multiple

00:49:34.670 --> 00:49:37.030
channels. Talking at the water cooler. Just make,

00:49:37.210 --> 00:49:39.750
maybe have a big poster if you're allowed. That's

00:49:39.750 --> 00:49:43.909
like AI is shit. Just, just, just at least so

00:49:43.909 --> 00:49:46.369
that, you know, the worst case scenario, she

00:49:46.369 --> 00:49:48.610
will. be like this guy's no fun and exclude you

00:49:48.610 --> 00:49:50.469
from the lunch chat and then you can go off and

00:49:50.469 --> 00:49:53.530
have a nice lunch by yourself. That's true actually.

00:49:54.050 --> 00:49:56.469
Make yourself unbearable. That's always my advice

00:49:56.469 --> 00:49:59.989
to everyone. Yes, yes. But she's already doing

00:49:59.989 --> 00:50:01.530
to me so it's like give as good as I'm getting.

00:50:02.110 --> 00:50:03.690
Do you know the other thing I wonder about this

00:50:03.690 --> 00:50:05.789
is like you probably aren't the only one that

00:50:05.789 --> 00:50:08.150
has noticed this and is annoyed by it. Have you

00:50:08.150 --> 00:50:10.909
spoken to anyone else in your team? Yes, I actually

00:50:10.909 --> 00:50:13.630
have. I've got some sort of allies on site. Just

00:50:13.630 --> 00:50:15.679
for your mental health. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

00:50:15.800 --> 00:50:18.760
they find it ridiculous as well. And also, like

00:50:18.760 --> 00:50:22.079
you said, we've spoken about her like brain frying

00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:24.559
from like the overuse of chachi -bichi, so it's

00:50:24.559 --> 00:50:26.619
like a real thing. Yeah, I was literally saying

00:50:26.619 --> 00:50:29.739
to Zara earlier, I was like, who even, why would

00:50:29.739 --> 00:50:32.210
you even want... chat GPT to do everything for

00:50:32.210 --> 00:50:34.590
you. And it's like, Oh, no, some people do. And

00:50:34.590 --> 00:50:37.170
they are like, just becoming vegetables. It's

00:50:37.170 --> 00:50:42.050
quite scary. Yeah, it's so bad. Also, something

00:50:42.050 --> 00:50:43.630
you just said reminded just reminded me of this,

00:50:43.650 --> 00:50:46.510
but in my work, for some reason, they called

00:50:46.510 --> 00:50:48.349
the used to college, they call it generative

00:50:48.349 --> 00:50:50.349
AI, but they started, they kept abbreviating

00:50:50.349 --> 00:50:53.610
it G AI. But they put in posters being like,

00:50:53.630 --> 00:50:57.889
advice on gay. Just be walking down the corridors

00:50:57.889 --> 00:51:01.119
and you just see like, gay in huge letters. It's

00:51:01.119 --> 00:51:04.039
so it's like that's offensive to me actually.

00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:13.019
That's another angle. This has been self aggressive.

00:51:13.380 --> 00:51:15.500
I think that's a good point. Like I need to,

00:51:15.579 --> 00:51:17.820
I don't think she's actually aware of the downsides.

00:51:18.019 --> 00:51:20.460
She's just run with this, which I mean, I love

00:51:20.460 --> 00:51:22.760
AI as well, but I'm aware of the dangers and

00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:24.739
I don't overuse it. She definitely used risks

00:51:24.739 --> 00:51:31.150
just leading into it in a bad way. Are you atrophying

00:51:31.150 --> 00:51:34.369
my brain? Will it answer honestly or does it

00:51:34.369 --> 00:51:39.489
rely? That's a great question. While AI is totally

00:51:39.489 --> 00:51:42.230
safe to use, there have been cases where it has

00:51:42.230 --> 00:51:45.210
completely made someone go insane. Yeah, I don't

00:51:45.210 --> 00:51:48.309
need to ask AI now. Thank you pretty much. I

00:51:48.309 --> 00:51:51.449
mean, I have friends and every time they say

00:51:51.449 --> 00:51:53.130
this, I'm like, next time they say I'm going

00:51:53.130 --> 00:51:54.909
to say something. But I was checking out where

00:51:54.909 --> 00:51:56.989
they will say to me, Oh yeah, I had this mental

00:51:56.989 --> 00:51:59.980
health issue worry. So I asked AI. or I had this

00:51:59.980 --> 00:52:02.400
question about this person I'm not sure is good.

00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:05.480
So I asked AI and I'm like, oh people really

00:52:05.480 --> 00:52:09.500
are asking AI therapy, mental health, things

00:52:09.500 --> 00:52:12.039
you should ask your doctor. Even a Google is

00:52:12.039 --> 00:52:15.820
better because the Google is from websites. and

00:52:15.820 --> 00:52:19.360
AI sometimes just makes up stuff. I did see it.

00:52:19.480 --> 00:52:21.960
So I was like just going deep into AI again,

00:52:22.119 --> 00:52:24.019
but it was like someone had taken a photo of

00:52:24.019 --> 00:52:26.460
like a wound or something that like a mysterious

00:52:26.460 --> 00:52:29.360
wound and they sent it to chat GBT and then it

00:52:29.360 --> 00:52:31.199
kept getting bigger and bigger and they kept

00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:34.039
sending more photos. But to be fair, the AI straight

00:52:34.039 --> 00:52:37.090
away was like go to a hospital, but like they

00:52:37.090 --> 00:52:38.789
just didn't and they just kept sharing pictures

00:52:38.789 --> 00:52:40.869
and then eventually they did go to a hospital.

00:52:42.349 --> 00:52:44.610
Yeah. Well, I do have a doctor friend, like he's

00:52:44.610 --> 00:52:47.429
retired, but he, he, he says the AI for medical

00:52:47.429 --> 00:52:50.630
stuff is like so insanely good. Oh, well that's

00:52:50.630 --> 00:52:53.650
something. Okay. That's good. As like the NHS

00:52:53.650 --> 00:52:56.769
collapses, we can take that dystopian route.

00:52:56.829 --> 00:53:00.809
I did see, I did see one juicy AI story. I think

00:53:00.809 --> 00:53:02.750
I might've sent it to you, Jack. And it was like

00:53:02.750 --> 00:53:05.960
a woman that had gone on her boyfriend's laptop

00:53:05.960 --> 00:53:09.480
and she could see his chat GPT history and on

00:53:09.480 --> 00:53:11.900
the history it was like, should I break up with

00:53:11.900 --> 00:53:14.980
my girlfriend? And he had all these conversations

00:53:14.980 --> 00:53:18.360
that was basically encouraging him to break up

00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:21.460
with her. Um, but he was also sharing stuff about

00:53:21.460 --> 00:53:24.800
her that was like really not great. And then

00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:26.940
she broke up. I was like, wow, that is like a

00:53:26.940 --> 00:53:30.070
black mirror. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I am obsessed

00:53:30.070 --> 00:53:33.030
with the people who fall in love with AI girlfriends

00:53:33.030 --> 00:53:36.190
and boyfriends and just the whole the whole route

00:53:36.190 --> 00:53:39.730
they've gone down there is is endlessly interesting.

00:53:40.030 --> 00:53:41.469
This is I should know myself doing this. But

00:53:41.469 --> 00:53:43.429
I guess everyone's doing it. Like, I recently

00:53:43.429 --> 00:53:45.590
so I recently was dating someone and then I got

00:53:45.590 --> 00:53:48.210
I got ghosted as the version of the story. But

00:53:48.210 --> 00:53:51.030
I did post the screenshots of the conversations

00:53:51.030 --> 00:53:54.070
with this guy and to chat to BT and I was like,

00:53:54.289 --> 00:53:56.860
for the last message because basically he It

00:53:56.860 --> 00:53:58.440
was clear he was ghosting me, but I was like,

00:53:58.539 --> 00:54:00.019
how should I respond? Anyway, I got it to analyze

00:54:00.019 --> 00:54:05.019
the dynamics. It was so enlightening. It just

00:54:05.019 --> 00:54:07.000
confirmed what I thought. But it was just saying

00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:09.300
that I had been carrying the emotional charge.

00:54:10.610 --> 00:54:12.829
moving things along, making plans, suggesting

00:54:12.829 --> 00:54:15.230
things. And he was being a passive recipient

00:54:15.230 --> 00:54:17.849
and nothing would have happened without my impetus.

00:54:18.250 --> 00:54:21.670
So interesting. Either it's either being really

00:54:21.670 --> 00:54:24.269
sycophantic, which is known to do well, or there

00:54:24.269 --> 00:54:26.389
may be some genuinely useful insights. I'm sure

00:54:26.389 --> 00:54:29.349
I fully believe that it's right in this occasion,

00:54:29.389 --> 00:54:32.469
but I also I'm skeptical that it does like it

00:54:32.469 --> 00:54:35.090
likes to agree with you. Yeah. But I also I'm

00:54:35.090 --> 00:54:38.070
sure you were right anyway. Yeah. Regardless.

00:54:40.010 --> 00:54:41.730
It did like talk me down from sounding like a

00:54:41.730 --> 00:54:44.829
kind of like lashing out. Oh, that's good. it

00:54:44.829 --> 00:54:46.269
talked me through what the last message should

00:54:46.269 --> 00:54:49.449
be. But then it did reassure me that it was amazing.

00:54:51.889 --> 00:54:54.949
Is this Jack's way of hard launching his new

00:54:54.949 --> 00:55:03.489
AIO boyfriend? Okay, well that took a turn. Thank

00:55:03.489 --> 00:55:07.199
you, Jack, for being an amazing caller. Well,

00:55:07.199 --> 00:55:11.199
I called you. Thanks for sharing your problem.

00:55:11.380 --> 00:55:15.780
And you feel better now? I do. I feel like a

00:55:15.780 --> 00:55:17.699
weight lifted off me just talking about it. So

00:55:17.699 --> 00:55:21.659
thank you for nice to talk to humans about technological

00:55:21.659 --> 00:55:24.739
problem. Good luck with it. Thank you guys. Bye.

00:55:24.980 --> 00:55:28.380
Nice to talk to you. Bye. Bye. Bye. So that was

00:55:28.380 --> 00:55:31.219
Jack. I swear I did not set that up. I did not

00:55:31.219 --> 00:55:33.920
know what you were going to talk about. I think

00:55:33.920 --> 00:55:36.409
it just shows everyone's talking about it. It

00:55:36.409 --> 00:55:40.309
is very zeitgeist. I'm on the pulse of what is

00:55:40.309 --> 00:55:43.429
cool. Let's hope it's still zeitgeist in the

00:55:43.429 --> 00:55:46.949
six months in which I actually edit and release

00:55:46.949 --> 00:55:48.309
this. Actually, do you know what? I tend to get

00:55:48.309 --> 00:55:49.929
quite obsessed with things and edit very quickly.

00:55:49.929 --> 00:55:52.530
So you never know. It'll be done by five a .m.

00:55:52.630 --> 00:56:04.429
Yeah, I think so. That brings us to the end of

00:56:04.429 --> 00:56:08.300
the first ever spiraling. episode. Do you have

00:56:08.300 --> 00:56:11.639
anything to plug Elder Barton? Well, when do

00:56:11.639 --> 00:56:14.460
we know when this is coming out? I will try and

00:56:14.460 --> 00:56:16.980
get this out before The Fringe. That's a good

00:56:16.980 --> 00:56:19.760
target. Yes, I'm at The Fringe. If you're listening

00:56:19.760 --> 00:56:22.780
in Scotland, great news. The Fringe is in Scotland.

00:56:23.539 --> 00:56:26.340
I'm on every day apart from Mondays and Tuesdays

00:56:26.340 --> 00:56:30.039
because I'm lazy at Monkey Barrel Comedy at 1pm.

00:56:30.159 --> 00:56:33.320
It's called The Mermaid and it's all about mermaids

00:56:33.320 --> 00:56:36.949
and mermaid lore and myths and also about Growing

00:56:36.949 --> 00:56:41.090
up in the mid 2000s, Rat Boy Summer, James Cameron's

00:56:41.090 --> 00:56:43.469
Submarine, all sorts of other things. So it's

00:56:43.469 --> 00:56:45.210
a lot of fun. And if you like mermaids, I think

00:56:45.210 --> 00:56:48.150
you'll like it. So please come along. And you're

00:56:48.150 --> 00:56:50.250
on like all of the social medias. I'm on all

00:56:50.250 --> 00:56:51.849
the social medias and you can check me out on

00:56:51.849 --> 00:56:54.590
my podcast, Ellen and Alistair Read That, where

00:56:54.590 --> 00:56:57.130
me and Alistair Beckett King read classic kids

00:56:57.130 --> 00:57:01.059
literature and then make fun of it. Iconic. And

00:57:01.059 --> 00:57:03.480
Radio 4. Yes. Oh, yeah, we should definitely

00:57:03.480 --> 00:57:06.760
keep plugging that in January, February, January.

00:57:07.449 --> 00:57:11.269
What is time? Earlier this year, me and Zara

00:57:11.269 --> 00:57:14.429
did a show called Eleanor and Pals, which was

00:57:14.429 --> 00:57:17.610
character comedy. It was me and Zara as Aileen.

00:57:18.510 --> 00:57:20.269
And you can still listen to that on BBC Sounds.

00:57:20.369 --> 00:57:21.969
And if you listen to it, maybe they'll let us

00:57:21.969 --> 00:57:24.050
make more. Although by the time this comes out,

00:57:24.110 --> 00:57:26.670
they've probably have said no. And then we'll

00:57:26.670 --> 00:57:28.949
do another episode to work through what that

00:57:28.949 --> 00:57:29.969
brings up for us. Yes, work through the grief.

00:57:30.269 --> 00:57:32.630
But yeah, listen to Eleanor and Pals if you can.

00:57:33.630 --> 00:57:38.000
Thank you, Eleanor. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Spiralling

00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:40.360
was recorded and edited with jingles written

00:57:40.360 --> 00:57:43.519
by me, Zara Gladman. Artwork was by Tom Dees,

00:57:43.619 --> 00:57:45.619
who you can follow on Instagram at Easy Peasy

00:57:45.619 --> 00:57:47.519
Lemon Deasy. If you enjoyed this and would like

00:57:47.519 --> 00:57:49.340
to stop me spiralling about my decision to make

00:57:49.340 --> 00:57:51.099
a podcast, then why not leave me a five -star

00:57:51.099 --> 00:57:53.619
review on Apple or Spotify? Thanks for listening.