Welcome to Spiralling, the podcast where guests
share the problems, insecurities, and festering
little brain worms that they just can't get out
of their heads. I'm Zara Gladman. I'm not a therapist,
but people like to tell me their problems, and
I like to record them for content. Together,
we'll try to get to the bottom of what's really
going on, and with any luck, stop spiralling.
Let's go! Hey guys, I'm a bit embarrassed that
I'm doing this because I resisted for so long,
but it's true. I've done it. I've started a podcast.
Why am I doing this? Because everyone else is
doing it and I enjoy the long form. You know,
I do get fed up with social media. That's kind
of why I started a sub stack, which you can still
read if you prefer the written form to these
salsa tones. I thought it would be a good excuse
to reach out to people who I found interesting
as well. And boy, do I have a lineup for you.
It's obviously got a few comedians in there,
but there are some other creative people from
different sectors as well. and it's been a genuine
pleasure to chat to all of them. Part of my cunning
plan of making this podcast themed around spiralling
was I thought, well, that's a cheeky way of encouraging
my guests to be a little bit vulnerable. And
I'll leave it up to you to decide whether that
cunning plan has worked. But people have shared
really interesting things with me, so I'm pretty
pleased with how it's gone. As I record this,
it is the 27th of July, 2026. I was out filming
today for a secret television project. I am back
to my day job tomorrow, just for one day and
then I'm off again filming. My flat right now
is a total riot. There's clothes and just crap
everywhere. I've got a load of washing on. So
to be honest with you, I think the reason I'm
recording this podcast intro right now is because
I'm procrastinating doing my chores. Get on with
it. It has been a very busy summer. As I say,
I'm doing this telly project. I'm also doing
one date at the Fringe. Please come along on
the 12th of August at Cab Vol 1 with Monkey Barrel.
It's last year's show, but last year's show had
great reviews and it sold out its runs. So if
you haven't seen it, come along. If you went
last year and you liked it. Tell a friend. Anyway,
it's time for me to introduce the first ever
spiraling guest. And it's a buyer because it
is Eleanor Morton. Eleanor Morton is a comedian
who I've known for many years. She is very funny.
She is very smart. She has a strong moral code
as well, which I admire. And she is a big overthinker.
So When I started this podcast, I thought immediately,
I've got to get Eleanor. I've got to get her.
And thankfully she accepted my invitation and
we had a great chat. Plus, because this is the
first episode, I've got a bonus guest and this
is a mystery guest who we phoned live on the
podcast. I'm not going to say who it is, but
it's somebody very important to me. It's somebody
who lives in a different country and I hope you
enjoy the three way chat that came from this.
So here we go. I'm spiraling. Okay. Welcome Eleanor
to the first ever episode of spiraling. Have
you ever been on the first episode of something?
Oh, that's a good question. I don't think so.
I've probably been on the last episode of something.
I've been on the first and the last episode of
my own sketch show. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, because
it was one episode. It was all as intended. Yeah.
That was the plan all along. Very excited to
have you here on my show about anxiety and spiraling.
What made you think of me? Oh, well, I don't
want to make you overthink this, but you did.
You were quite near the top of my list if not
number one. No, I really wanted to fill the niche
of most anxious Scottish woman, but if it's happened,
it's happened. I think it, yeah, I think it may
have happened. Have you ever been on a podcast
where the host has a clipboard? I don't think
so. Are you, would you like to be the first?
Are you very excited about that? Yeah, I'm just
trying to set various records today. What about
an anxiety blanket? No, this is definitely the
first anxiety blanket. I think I like it. I don't
know how I feel about it. being over my whole
body. That might be quite a lot, but over the
knees is quite nice. Yeah. I quite like it. I
think they get them for dogs as well. Yeah. That
doesn't surprise me for fireworks. Apparently
it's a thing. Yeah. I'm trying to think. I, I,
what do I use to soothe me? Cause it's not heavy
blankets. It's, I think it's hot water bottles.
I love a hot water bottle. Just some warmth and
blistering heat. Yeah. Blisters. Yeah. So Eleanor,
you're a comedian and author. comedy writer,
an actor, a stand up, a podcaster, grade seven
piano, grade seven piano. So I'm really sorry.
I missed that. I did do research, but I didn't.
That's not on your Wikipedia. Did you know you
had a Wikipedia by the way? I do because I think
my sister is, she didn't make it, but I think
she has edited it in the past because somebody
put something in that was wrong and it annoyed
her. So congratulations. Do you have one? No,
I don't. Um, I mean, can your sister, she could
probably set one up. I don't know who made it
and I don't know when or why. It's kind of weird
looking at your own information and thinking,
well, you could put more than that in but then
you're like, oh no, it has to be cited and you
can't just be like, I say so. Yeah, I think there's
laws, isn't there? Or you can't create one for
yourself. Probably. Or at least you can't just
be like, I'm me and I say this is true. But no,
it's I mean, is it flattering? I don't know.
It's it exists. It listed all of your friend
shows and your work. So I was impressed by it.
Somebody obviously was like, right, we've got
to get these facts out here. So, you know, people
love people love a tally and a table and a fact
sheet. They do. What have you been working on
recently? Well, I've been working on recently.
I am working towards my friend show this year.
my ninth. Oh my God. Oh my God. Cause you only
did your first. I know I'm a little baby. We
do go, we do go years back. Although there was
a gap of about seven years where I just sort
of disappeared into an abyss and I didn't do
comedy. Well I was in London so I don't think
I noticed. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. You're in that
other abyss. I was in the other abyss and then
I came back and I was like, who's still on the
scene? I remember Mark Jennings told me that
you had been on some laugh pod and he'd said,
what's changed in comedy in the last 15 years?
And the only thing you could think of was that
I don't play the ukulele. Yeah. Yeah. That's
the first thing that came to mind. That's the
big change in Scottish comedy. You've done a
thousand different things and this podcast is
about, you know, spiraling and anxiety and stuff.
But considering, you know, you, you might be
an overthinker, might have anxiety. I think it
takes a lot of confidence to do all those different
things. I think that's something that I like
about your work because you're not, you're not
boxed in. You're not scared to try all these
different things. Sometimes I'm scared of not
having any money and that does make you try different
things. That's true. Uh, I think, I think because
I used to be so scared of everything and I am
less scared now, I really had to force myself
to do stuff. So, uh, I'm quite good at like making
myself do scary things. even if I'm very, very
uncomfortable at the time. And that is probably
how I ended up doing multiple things to various
skill levels. Is there a scale? Like if you think
about the different things that you've done,
like podcasting stand up, like from no anxiety
to terrifying, you know, is there, is there a
scale there or are they equally skinny or I think
stand up is always going to be the scariest,
but it depends on the situation because it's
not always scary. But if you're in a new place
or you're trying to impress people, you know,
you got to do well. That's really stressful,
but less than it used to be because I've done
it. If you do something enough, do you get scared?
Do you get nervous? Yes. I mean, I started to
spiral about even just doing this like last night.
I was like, do you know what's scary? I spent
a lot of money in all this equipment. It's very
nice equipment. And then, you know, when I started
to ask people if they wanted to be on it. I was
like, I've committed now. And then you start
to worry about the guest and wasting their time.
Oh, I assure you I have. You cannot waste my
time. Okay, that's reassuring. What did I do
today? I watched a Netflix documentary about
an FDLS cult FLDS. What does that stand for?
You know, it's the Mormons who live in the desert
in the weird dresses. Oh, it's not the mainstream
Mormons. It's the ones who have multiple wives.
Okay. And this one was about a woman who infiltrates
them by pretending. Well, she is making a documentary,
but she's pretending. She's just kind of that
to be like getting to know them. But really she's
trying to bring down this, uh, abusive predator.
Wow. And I did all my laundry. Okay. Um, I saw,
um, on the Mormon front, I saw a book of Mormon
for the first time recently and I've never seen
it. Did you like it? Well, I didn't realize that
it's actually quite racist. Do you mean Mormons
or the musical? No, they saw the musical. Oh,
sorry. The Book of Mormon. I didn't read the
Book of Mormon. I went to see the musical. Do
you mean the musical was racist or the musical?
The religion? Oh yeah, I knew that because they
only let black people in in like the seventies
or something. For some reason, some black people
apparently wanted to join. Yeah, but God changed
his mind in the seventies and started to let
them in. What is racist about the musical? Yeah,
so I hadn't seen it before. I had no expectations
other than South park. I love South park. And
you know, there were bits of that. I absolutely
loved like choreography. The music was amazing.
Really, really funny. But the kind of loose storyline
is the Mormons, you know, they go on these like
missions. And apparently they go outside of our
showed, you know, they go all over the place.
I was once accosted by a guy and I was trying
to cross a really busy road in the middle of
Edinburgh. And I would have talked to him because
I quite, no, no, he was a little child. But he
was, you know, I always like to engage and ask
annoying questions. Not in a horrible way, just
like, anyway, but I was like, I will get run
over if you keep talking to me. But yeah, they're
here. So they go on these missions and the Mormons
in the musical go to Uganda. Great. And it's
just it's the way they kind of represent the
Ugandans is just a bit, um, there's stuff about
AIDS. Okay. And you know, it's just like, you
know, you could tell it was written 20 years
ago. I, this is interesting because I heard that
they changed it recently to kind of be more up
to date with the fact acknowledging that because
it used to be like, haha, moments are funny,
but they're not half just a bit of fun. And now
they kind of had to go, actually there's lots
of problematic things, but Yeah. So I looked
this after seeing the show, obviously I went
on Reddit immediately and was Googling and apparently
after 2020 and black lives matter, lots of black
actors got together and basically were like,
we're not going to participate unless you rewrite
a lot of the script. So what I saw must have
been the rewrite. So I wonder what the original
was like. Find it somewhere. Probably if you
really wanted to. Anyway, that's a Mormon tangent.
Are you a worrier? Yes. Okay. Do you think that
has that changed as you've got older or have
you always? I think it's got better. I was way
worse when I was younger and undiagnosed. And
there wasn't really a con like when I was seven,
basically, I started to get symptoms of OCD and
like generalized anxiety disorder, but obviously
at that point, nobody knew. I mean, people did,
but children having mental health wasn't really
a thing. You know, like maybe you'd put kids
who were hyper on, on pills to calm them down,
but that was it really. Or, you know, you'd have
like occasional cases of them killing people,
but like general mental health for kids wasn't.
So like, I would start to kind of worry about
things and like irrationally and sort of talk
about it. And everyone was just like, oh well.
I just, I wouldn't worry about it. And that didn't
help because it was a clinical thing. So I actually
am better now because I am medicated in therapy
and know what is wrong with me. But the world
feels worse. But I'm better equipped than I was
when I was seven. Do you feel worse than you
did? I fluctuate, like I think in some ways in
my... 20s, I was more confident. Like, you know,
when I think about, you know, I did little bits
of comedy in my late 20s and I had all this confidence
to go and do that. But I think a lot of what
I was doing was actually pretty shit, but then
I didn't know it was shit. You know, so that's
the best way to be. So, but then as soon as you
realize all that is shit and then you realize
or you learn and you get better. and you realize,
oh, I'm not actually hitting the mark, you kind
of lose that confidence. So I don't know, there's
a weird sort of self doubt that creeps in or
has started creeping in my forties. It's the
opposite of the Dunning -Kruger effect. Oh, what's
that? That's where people are. So what is it
that they're stupid and they don't know they're
stupid or they're stupid and they think they're
clever? Okay. But you're not stupid, but you're
worried you're not clever. Yeah. I have heard
smart people are more likely to be unhappy. So
let's say that. And see when you have a problem
or you're stressed about something, do you talk
about that to anybody? Um, it depends what the
problem is. Uh, sometimes I just put it on social
media and then I'm like, why did I do that? That's
worse. I mean, I don't recommend it, but I do
talk to people. Uh, I find my boyfriend very
soothing because he is not, he's not a warrior
at all. And sometimes I will be in the middle
of talking about something and he'll go, I don't
think that's true. And you'll just be like, Oh
yeah, okay. It's very grounding. But I think
I'm, I think I worry that I annoy people with
my anxiety. Like, Oh, Ellen is here again, like
worried about something. Cause I know it's, I
know it's not rational, but it's still hard to
stop doing it. You know? I have met your boyfriend
and I agree. He's so Zen. So I could see that
being a good influence. on you for sure. Yeah.
So speaking of problems and talking about them,
you've got a spiral that you're going to share
with us and we're going to talk through. So tell
me what's on your mind. My question, my spiral
is how do we keep making art when the world is
really anti art currently? Wow. That's um, That's
a big one. You've brought a big spiral for the
first episode. Okay, is this something that has
bothered you for a long time? Or is this something
that's been on your mind recently? I'd say recently
within the last couple of years, I feel like
maybe maybe it's directly correlates with my
personal success. I don't know. But I think the
more the basically in some ways, the better I
do, the more I'm aware of how precarious our
position is as people who create stuff and how
un, what's the word, not set up for it, the world
that we live in is and how everything is kind
of being taken over by, you know, doing things
quickly and easily and horribly instead of for
the sake of it. And I worry that people are not
seeing the benefit of, I mean, I say art, comedy.
mostly is why some people would argue is not
art, but the benefit of doing art for art sake,
which I think is, you know, I think we is valued,
but it needs to be more valued and Let's let's
unpack that. Okay. So you see, you see the world
is anti art or like anti comedy. What specifically
do you feel is going wrong? Do you know what
I saw today? Do you know Zoe bread on Instagram?
She's great. So she did a video today all about
this isn't comedy specific. This is um, so one
so so so David Ashmore is 100. Yeah, we're all
very happy about that. He's the last thread keeping
this country together. So happy birthday to him.
One of the EastEnders actors, don't know his
name, don't watch EastEnders, did a portrait
of Attenborough's birthday. And it was displayed
in this Bristol, no, it's a Brighton gallery,
I think it was Brighton. And it was auctioned
off. But it wasn't, he said he made this, he
painted this, but it's AI. It's obviously AI.
And I don't know if he printed it and then painted
over it. But it's definitely like, you look at
it and you're like, well, that monkey's got an
extra paw and you know, the lettering is weird.
And, and it was on BBC news is this like, and
this guy from EastEnders has painted a picture
of David Attenborough and it's low and the money's
going to charity. It's lovely. And only 10 %
of the money was going to charity. So it's already
a bit, a bit dodgy. But, but I was just like,
how is everyone how have they managed to frame
this like this is a really nice charming thing
when first of all, it's a horrible, like classic
AI art kind of the colors are horrible. The whole
thing's weird and gaudy. Really wonky. Yeah,
yeah, definitely. And then you've managed to
frame it like it's a good thing. Like, like this
is and also as if we're all idiots, you can't
tell that this is a very dystopian and also sad
to as a way of celebrating someone who is very
as Zoe Brede points out, pro nature, which is
not what AI loves and, you know, likes real things
like animals. Has there been much that I've not
caught up with the story, but so that was on
the BBC News. Yes. Has there been much discourse
or response online to that pain thing? I think
so. I don't, I mean, I need to go back and check
when this happened. It was, I think within the
last week, but obviously the comments on Sorry
Brides thing was. you know, everyone was outraged
and stuff. But I do feel like we live in a world
where not enough people hate AI enough. Like
I think a lot of people hate it. But I think
we need to have a stronger, really visceral,
like treat it like, I don't know, like it's a
hate crime. Like every time someone brings it
up, like they've said something really offensive,
if they say they use AI, I think we should just
treat them like, that is disgusting. I can't
believe you do that. I wonder if like the AI
art thing is still, you know, it was kind of
trendy for a while, wasn't it? When people were
like putting their profile pictures. And full
disclosure, when it was first a thing like four
years ago, maybe. Kind of fun to do. We all did
it. I've got a weird AI picture of me as a fairy
princess. Loved it. And then very quickly realized,
first of all, you know, this is not good for
artists. And second of all, like the pictures
are kind of, you know, they've all got like a
a tell, not just like they look weird, but that
the style, you know, is the more AI is fed, the
more homogenous it all gets. Because it's, it's
got so much information now, it's kind of taking
giving you the average of what every single artist
in the world would do. So it's this very bland
kind of thing that comes back. But we, me and
my boyfriend, every time we're out and about,
we will like play like, let's spot the AI arts
because it's, you know, shops will use it as
a cheap way to kind of create a thing. That's
AI, that's AI. And then sometimes you can't tell
and it's kind of creepy. Are you, are you an
anti AI or are you going to come out suddenly
as? Yeah, yeah. I fucking love it. No, I, I feel
like it obviously has some positive applications
that are quite specific, you know, in like medical
research or, you know, dealing with massive data
set for properly positive things. And there are
things that can simplify that I have no issue
with, but I wonder like specifically on the kind
of AI generated art thing. I kind of wonder if
we're at the, you know, it was really in fashion.
Everyone was creating all these AI images and
it was really fun. And like, I wonder if that's
going to kind of we're going to, people are going
to get bored of that because it's all the same
aesthetic. This is what I'm saying. It's very
same. It's like Farmville. Do you remember that
on Facebook? At one point everybody was doing
Farmville. It's getting hundreds of requests
to Farmville and I don't think that happens anymore.
It was just really on trend for a while. Well,
this is awkward Zara. Actually we're all still
very into Farmville, but we've decided not to
ask you to play. But you know, I mean, I feel
like, you know, maybe, I mean, I'm not saying
that Farmville is equivalent in - No, I don't
even know. It's a trend. Yeah. So I do think,
I do think there was a point, I think we've luckily
passed at this now, where certain people were
like, AI is the future, AI is incredible. And
I think we have passed the point where those
people are quite so excited about it. And also
like when it comes to creative stuff, is it not
the case that it actually can't generate brand
new ideas? No. So it just seems to churn out
the same formulaic stuff. So again, you know,
I just can't see it. I don't know what people
get from it. Like as someone in terms of art,
like if I see an AI painting the whole year,
I feel like explaining why art is good to people
is kind of like Well, if they don't get it, I
don't think I'm going to make them get it. But
you know, the whole point of a painting is knowing
that a human being put thoughts and feelings
and emotions into it. And that's why you get
something out of it. And it's the same with music.
And it's the same with. Yeah, that's what makes
it moving. You know, the backstory behind something.
It's like, what am I supposed to feel about this
thing that nothing created? It's just really
shallow aesthetics. And the aesthetics are horrible
anyway. So I mean, I do love to rag on it. Like,
I love to find like the Willy Wonka thing was
Oh, that was a lot of fun. Do you remember that?
Of course. That was a lot of fun. It's such a
weird time in history. It really put Glasgow
on the map. It really did. In a way that like
as, as like, oh, that's the Willy Wonka place.
I do think with AI, one kind of unavoidable thing
is I get the impression that younger generations
of people in high school right now are all using
it and it's all normal to them. And I just wonder
well, we might all be a bit, you know, are we
being Luddites about this? You can cut this out
if you're not allowed to, but do you deal with,
do you deal with students at uni? Have you found
AI as a problem? So I don't do, I do, um, I do
do training and stuff with students. I don't
do marking. And I think that is where it has
had a big impact. People that do teaching and
lecturing are noticing it. in essays, and I think
they really miss a time when they could read
something original that wasn't. It's so funny
because like, when I was at uni, you know, you'd
doze off and you'd not pay attention and you'd
write a bad essay and the professor was like,
oh, this is so annoying. And now I bet they'd
love to have that kind of student, you know,
just someone who at least was doing their own
work and not copying it. But I just see something
heartening. There was a commencement speech,
I think it was maybe UCLA, somewhere in America.
And the woman doing this, this graduation speech
was talking about the benefits of AI and everyone
started booing like really aggressively. And
she was really taken aback. You could tell she
was surprised. And that was kind of nice. It
was like, I don't, I do think the kids are all
right. I think you're always going to get people
who use AI. But I think the thing is like, it's
not even for our benefit that they should use
it. not use it. It's for their benefit. Like
at some point you're going to be like, I can't.
Yeah. Your brain atrophy because you don't know
how to do the most basic things like write an
email. That's terrifying. It's like, you know,
the whole, I did a couple of videos on it that,
that did well, I think say that people felt the
same as me, the whole idea that like, Oh, you
don't want to be bothered writing emails. It's
like, well, why do you want to be bothered doing
anything? Why don't we all just lie on the floor
all day? Like what's the point of being alive?
You know, if you don't do stuff. I do understand
making life easier, but there comes a point where
you're like, if AI is doing everything for you,
what are you doing? In a socialist utopia, the
robots would do all the work and we'll create
all the art, but we live in a capitalist hellhole,
so it's the other way around. So I wonder, AI
in the art specifically, is the onus maybe on
the kind of organizations or funding bodies or
whoever in the arts to to have policies in place.
Like I noticed, for example, the 48 hour film
projects have a no AI policy now. I think you
need to make it embarrassing. I think you need
to put like, I know there's also authors who
put like a no AI content on their books. I think
you need, yeah, you need to have a label that
is like, you know, like a, like organic. Like
it is organic. Yeah, it is organic. Oh, I like
that. Organic art. I feel like you said, the
kids are all right. There's enough of us out
there that are you know, being vocal and critiquing
it. Organizations are starting to come out against
it. I think we can get through this. I think,
you know, ultimately as you said, it's the human
stories, the human experience that usually makes
art compelling that will make you, I just can't
see anything written by AI making me cry or making
me laugh. Like I don't know if you've ever seen
some of the comedy that comes out of it. And
I've noticed recently, I was reading something
today online and there was a joke in it that
I just thought that is so Clearly AI, it was
so formulaic. There's a phrase that someone did
an article about that it's very AI. It's like,
it's not X, it's Y. So if you see, if you see
something that's, I don't know, like, it's not
a timepiece. It's a way of life. If you see some
of that phrase, it feels very like AI wrote that.
Yeah, exactly. It's if meh -meh -meh, meh -meh
-meh -meh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so basic. Even
if AI is not going to be the tool, I do think
there's just a lack of investment in in art and
the worthiness of art that society has. Yeah.
And, you know, I mean, that's when has that not
been the case? Yeah, I suppose. Yeah. I mean,
comedy in particular that you mentioned before,
it hasn't historically been considered a high
art. You still can't get funding for comedy unless
you kind of sell it as a you have to have some
kind of theme or what, you know, you can't just
make one of my people laugh. Yeah, I did notice
during the comedy festival, Krista, the director
speaking out about that. There was an article,
I think it was maybe in the Scotsman and it was
about how you know, about exactly that, how funding
isn't really available to support. It's like
if the audience is enjoying it a lot, that must
mean it's not real art because we all know real
art is boring. Yeah. Highbrow and boring. And
that's why I mean, I'm, I'm very lucky in that
I did get creative Scotland funding to do some
comedy a couple of years ago, but it was very
much in that character comedy. more theatrical
space. I did use the funding to pay stand ups.
But I wonder if maybe there is an element of
comedians feeling like that sort of funding,
arts funding isn't for them. approach in comedy
where some people are very like, what I do is
art. And some people are like, this isn't art.
I refuse to say this is art. Because, you know,
it's a sort of like reverse snobbery where they're
like, I'm not doing art. I'm just making people
laugh. And it's like, yeah, that's fine. But
like, do you want more money to do that? Yeah,
Sean McLaughlin did a really funny bit in his
tour show that I saw at McCuntliff Festival the
other weekend, where he talks about the fact
that Winston Churchill didn't defund the arts
during the war, like he kept the money for the
arts. And when everyone else was like, what are
you doing? He was like, if we don't have art,
what are we fighting for? Yeah. And then obviously
undermines that by saying that, you know, like
doing his own stand up and being like, is this
what Churchill was fighting for? But the point
stands that, you know, that the people have not
considered comedy art, even though, and you know,
even if there is any kind of psychological barrier
to like, oh, that arts funding isn't for me.
I suppose reality is when you go to do your funding
application at the moment, comedy isn't included
as a box. You know, you have to take other or
theater or if you're in musical comedy, maybe
music. I think that there's a kind of like system
based problem there or process problem that is
putting up a barrier. I also think, um, it helps
me getting really on my high horse. I think anything
that working class people enjoy is not considered
art and working class people don't enjoy all
comedy, but working class people certainly enjoy
a lot of comedy. And I'm not saying working class
people don't also enjoy high art, but I think
the conception is like, if it's something you
can go and watch on a Saturday night, and get
a bit drunk when you're watching it, it can't
be art. And I think there's this really weird
attitude we have where yeah, like, the more fun
you're having, the less this must be art. Yeah,
you've got to only you can only be very serious
and having a very boring time, not that No, the
high art is boring either. I don't want to get
in a Timothy Chalamet trap here. Okay. Yeah.
Be careful. Cancelation pending. But I think,
yeah, the, I think there, there is a class problem
clearly even, even in kind of accessing that
funding. Yeah. Like Darren McGarvey has been
very critical of this before as well. You know,
like I was able to apply for that funding to
create Scotland because I work in a university.
I've got, I know the language of funding applications
and that's a skill of you know, benefit from
it and be able to apply. And if you're not in
academia or that world, or the theater world,
which is also sets you up for that kind of funding
as well. Yeah. So that could be a barrier for
some people. I don't know that do creative school.
I think creative school and have got quite a
lot of them, you know, access support if you
do need support apply for that funding. But well,
the other thing is leading into this, which might
be a positive, but we'll see if it happens is
this whole artists universal income. Yes, universal
basic income, which they are floating at the
moment. Yes, very exciting. It would be really
exciting if that happened. I know that they have
it in Ireland because my friend Michael uh, benefited
from it. Michael Fry. He might be appearing on,
he's another, I don't want to categorize him
as another overthinker, but also he's very much
an overthinker. Part of our community. He is
absolutely an overthinker. But yeah, amazing
Irish comedian. And he, so he has been part of
that program. And I think that has really helped
him in the last few years to just keep making
stuff and doing stuff and being also like, you
know, with that funding means he can stay in
Dublin and contribute to the Dublin economy and
not do what most of us have done or thought about
doing, which is move to London. Yeah, you know,
it's so frustrating when people kind of like
they, the idea is you have to be in London, and,
and you try not to be in London. And then, you
know, all the stuff is in London. Well, how was
this? I had this really interesting anecdote
a couple of years ago, and I can't remember who
told it to me. But it was a kind of story from
days of yore in the 90s, where the BBC wanted
to do more regional stuff. So they invited a
bunch of people to come to this big meeting in
London about regional comedy or whatever. And
the woman in charge was like, so who here actually
lives outside of London? And nobody put their
hand up. And she was like, oh, that's really
annoying. You know, I really wanted someone from
the regions. And it was someone like Paul Whitehouse
went, well, we all had to move here because this
is where all work is, you know, it's just this
sort of endless circle of like, lack of, lack
of money in anywhere but London means people
are not staying in those places and giving, you
know, and I think there's a real, quite a kind
of hostile attitude as well that people have
about certain Scots will, you know, they'll leave.
leave Scotland to make money and people will
be a bit snobby about that. And it's like, you
can't judge people for that. That's where they
are. So many opportunities are like you say,
it's really hard. Yeah. But yeah, I think on
the positive, like you say, I think this is very
exciting. Yes. I think it could be really good
for the Scottish creative industries. So if outside
of that, the kind of funding and opportunities
landscape in Scotland, I think one thing that
one positive in recent years is that there, there
is a kind of DIY scene that's, that's really
burgeoning. I think a lot of that we've seen
come from tech talk and people, you know, making
the, you know, you just need a phone. You don't
need loads and loads of money. And you know,
through that people have been able to get exposure
and get more opportunities. You've got lots,
so many people starting podcasts. I hear, you
know, seizing the means of production. It's like,
Yeah, we get it. We've all got to have a podcast.
Yeah. Yeah. And I will say the difference between
when I started comedy, which is 16 years ago
this month. Wow. Happy anniversary. 16. Teenager.
I was I was 18. Yeah. So you can work out my
age from the math. I'm 34. But the when I started
and now the difference in definitely the Scottish
scene, I think is overall net positive. Definitely.
I think it's much more diverse. I think it's
a lot more women. I still feel like even when
I was 16, 18 back in 2010, there was, I would
be the only, I'm sure you felt this too, the
only woman on the bill so much of the time. And
even then that was considered like progress because
there was a woman on the bill. So I think we
do, we have come a long way and it is really
nice to see as well a lot more experimentation
and people doing different things. I think, I
suppose my thing is... you know, as much as it
always feels like it's getting worse, it's getting
better at the same time. Yeah. I think community
is something that I've, I don't know. I think
I've always been felt a little bit outside of
the kind of comedy scene in a way. And maybe
that has partly to do with gender or like the
type of comedy that I do. And I feel similar.
I think we both feel very much insecure. No,
we're not. Um, but you know, I think historically
or, you know, or maybe not even that long ago,
I felt like a little bit of an outsider, but
actually I feel like I'm increasingly finding
this community. in Scotland and beyond via tech
talk as well of people who are similar minded
and who are so supportive. It's also like a business
where it's so easy to be like, I'm the only one
doing badly or I'm the only one who feels like
my six, I'm not doing well, whatever it is. And
it's also funny because that's how everyone feels
constantly. But yeah, it's weird how we're bad
at admitting it sometimes. I think especially
in Scotland, I think we, we really have to kind
of like, you know, this, you can't, it's just
kind of the tool poppy thing. You can't, you
can't both too much. Yeah. But you also can't
admit when things are terrible either. Yeah.
Um, I feel like stoic basically. Yeah. Very Scottish
thing to be. I wonder if maybe part of the kind
of feeling as an outsider sometimes comes from,
I do a lot of tick tock you do as well. I mean,
you get way more than me, but I don't actually
see people in person that often. And then when
I do see people in person, it's so lovely and
everyone is so welcoming. And it kind of, as
you say on social media, you can see stuff online
and you can get in your own head about stuff.
Eleanor's not like my post. She hates me. Yeah,
no, totally. And I think that's why I do enjoy
the fringe for all its faults because you are
as much as it can be very stressful. You are
also like with other people doing what you both
really enjoy or really enjoy doing. And, you
know, you're not just online promoting and stuff
and waiting for things. You're doing it. You
get to do it every day and you get to be in it.
And, and that is really nice. Um, even if it
also makes you have a tiny little breakdown.
Yeah, I did the fringe for the first time last
year. And I, well, funnily enough, like I, I
think in my head, I was like, I'll go to the
fringe and I'll be like, partying all the time,
like doing karaoke and all that. I didn't do
that. Yeah. But I did feel like part of a community.
It was, it was nice. And I did see people in
person and I saw so many great shows and I was
like, okay, I feel like a legitimate person.
I love meeting, um, comedians from like America
and Australia as well at the fringe, like welcome
to my setting. Um, it's just, it's very, it's
such a novelty to see like people here from the
comedy scene. the worldwide comedy scene. How
are you feeling about the spiral? I genuinely
feel better. Okay. That's so weird. Isn't that
funny? I feel good. I feel part of community.
I'm not worried about AI. I think, you know,
there's enough of us. that are resisting and
people are going to get bored. There's only so
many weird pictures of David Attenborough we
can stand. Exactly. We're going to all have our
universal basic income and opportunities are
going to flow. I think we're going to be fine.
We're part of a DIY scene and we're living it.
This is a part of the podcast where we get someone
else's problem for you to solve, Eleanor. Good
thing I'm a qualified psychotherapist. Indeed.
Totally safe, what we're doing here. Because
this is the first episode, we're going to do
something special and I'm going to phone a friend.
So the person I'm going to phone is my friend
Jack. Jack lives in Paris, so he is my French
correspondent. He is somebody who I do tell my
problems to and face versa. And he's definitely
a good person for this podcast. So let me just
give him a call. This is quite exciting. I've
never done a live call on a podcast. Oh my God.
Oh, hello. Hello. Hi. Or should we say bonjour?
Bonjour. Oh, that was great pronunciation. Well
done, Eleanor. Stop it. No, stop it. How's it
going in Paris just now? Good, thank you. I'm
just back from seeing Devil Rears Prada 2. Oh,
what do you think? Which I absolutely loved so
much. Really? It's good fun. Did you not like
it? No, I've not seen it yet. I loved the first
one. So is the boyfriend still in it that everyone
hates? No. No, he gone. No, no. Okay. Yeah. There's
like the main big stars and then there's no one
else really from the first one. Okay. I just
remember him making that cheese sandwich. There's
like five pounds of Jarlsberg in that. Is that
a bigger deal in America than here? Because is
Jarlsberg very expensive? I think it is quite
expensive. Okay. I don't think I've ever bought
it. I have bought it because of Devil Wears Prada.
Yeah. You've been influenced. Of course. Please
just the boyfriend. Anyway, sorry. Enough chit
chat. Love a discussion of expensive cheese.
I do want to see the sequel. I'll try and do
that soon. But anyway, I've called you because
you're someone who sometimes shares problems
with me and I thought it would be fun and therapeutic
for you to share a problem with us today and
we will chat it through and Eleanor is going
to help you through this. I am here. I'm off
screen, but I'm here lurking. Okay, well, my
problem is more like a grievance. It's in my
professional life, so it's at work. Right. So
I work in I have an office job, we'll say I work
in an office. And as most people who work in
offices will have noticed, there's the creeping
use presence of AI in our in our jobs. So I'm
going to put out there that this is what that
concerns is AI. Crazy that you're talking about
AI, but continue. No, no, sorry. I'm coming cold
into this podcast. Yeah, sorry. Anyway, so I
have a colleague who I actually share an office
with. So obviously, already, that's like a lot
of, you know, exposure to this women's women,
a female colleague. And so the issue really is
that this person is using a chat GPT beyond what
I would consider like a reasonable amount. So
she will filter every single email that she sends
through chat GPT. Very, it's very obvious to
anyone who knows all the sort of hallmarks of
an AI piece of text. She will filter all her
responses through chat GPT. So it's mad. It's
like incredibly annoying. So there's that aspect
of it, where she you're dealing with a robot
as a colleague. She's taking it upon herself
to become like the social nexus of our team.
Like she's the person who's she wants, she wants
everyone to come to lunch, she set up this team's
chat called lunch and chill. And in that chat,
she sends like, every time a new person joins
the team. she sends a message written by Chachi
BT that's like, here, we don't talk, no work
talk here. Oh my God. All we care about is food,
but like really cheesy and Chachi BT like worse
than that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean,
my problem is really just that I'm at my limit
with it. So the social social convener robot
is insane. Sadly, I mean, sadly, the idea of
having a robot friend is that she sounds really
fun, but the reality is deeply boring. So already
it's, you know, can you give an example of like
what she might post then in like the social team
site? Uh, yes. Yes. It doesn't need to be a real
example, but I'm just, I'd love it if it was.
Yeah. Okay. Let me find what if I just scroll
up. I mean, it's just very, it's the whole thing
is like foods. So she's, she'll send when, when,
when it's approaching 1230, which is maybe don't
read it out exactly in case there's some kind
of information, but you could like paraphrase.
Yeah, I suppose this is, this problem is compounded
by the fact that she, I find her decision to
be the person who organises like what the team
is going to do at lunchtime. I find it like quite
a front. Do you feel like you can't say I'm going
for a walk by myself like you have? Oh my god.
There's so much there's so much pressure and
and also she finds it really weird when you say
no and then on the flip side she doesn't ever
come for any social things after after work finish.
She will never come for an after work drink.
She's like out the door. She wants to she wants
everybody to have lunch with her. Yeah. And it's
just like she'll send a message at like 1220
because she's decided that's the time that we
should go for lunch is 1230. So 10 minutes before
she'd be like in a chat GPT tone like my stuff
looks like my tummy's And I should also say that
this woman, um, which is no shade, but it maybe
explains a bit more like her first, her native
language is not English and she doesn't speak
amazing English. So she's relying on this. But
I have seen her, she's she's a French native
speaker, I have seen her use it in French as
well. Oh, she's French, say no more, say no more.
Well, if you want to go down that route like
we didn't stay here all day. No, no, no. Obviously
love the French, just no libel. Love the French.
I knew I had a I had a friend of friends. She
wasn't my friend, but she was the friend of some
friends and she would put things in their Google
calendar, like she somehow got access to it.
Not a work friend, like a social friend. She
would put things in their work calendars, sorry,
in their Google calendars like... But without
asking they would just, it would just appear
like lunch on Sunday or something. Whoa. It was
incredible. And I don't know how they put up
for it for as long as they did because it freaked
me out. So I get, I think I get where you're
coming from. Yeah. That's a whole next level.
I hope she never gets there. That's like quite
alarming. So Eleanor, know how you feel about
AI? Yeah. How? This is going to look like you
set this up. It is weird actually that it's kind
of worked out this way. But okay. You've heard
Jack's problem. What are we going to do about
it? What do you think? I think, as always, the
healthiest and most mature thing to do is to
be very passive aggressive. Jack's going to love
this. I suggest peppering into your correspondence
with her or any kind of thing that you think
she'll see links to suggestions about AI being
bad or potentially giving your... computer bugs
or something, even if that's not true. I think
shame is the best way to get people out of AI.
And you know, you're gonna have to be very subtle
so that she doesn't feel it's obvious, but just
somehow bring things up that suggest that AI
is like, studies show people who use AI are stupid
monkey brains. I don't know, something like that.
Just something that's like, this is bad. keep
that in her orbit, like the cognitive decline.
Yeah, like, Oh, did anyone see this really interesting
article about about how it makes you stupid or
whatever? And, you know, she probably thinks
that you don't haven't clocked that she's using
AI. She probably thinks it's because her brain's
already atrophied, so she doesn't have that capacity.
Yeah, yeah, like, I just just I won't read the
actual email, but I've got email in front of
you just to give you like a couple of phrases.
Yeah, clearly AI, given that this woman is not
a native English speaker. I had basically replied
and copy turned to an email, which is a bit passag.
But I had said, I think actually, it was Sandra,
not her real name, who took care of this. Maybe
she can give you more information about this.
Like I was quite casual. And then her reply was
like, I would like to confirm that she's a bit
weirdly formal. At this stage. for reference,
if my memory serves me well." And then she closed
it by saying, that being said, I will leave it
to you to coordinate this. Please feel free to
keep me updated in any progress. It was just
very formal. And that's kind of a bad example,
because I mean, it's obviously definitely...
No, but that is like if an alien... wanted to
sound like it did business. Can I out you Jack
about that one example where you did use AI on
your email because it's the funniest thing ever.
Do you want to tell it? Or will I tell it? You
tell it. Maybe you tell it. Okay. Well, I'll
tell it. Okay. Yeah. So Jack sent an email. He
put it through chat, GBT or whatever. And he
realized after he'd send the email that he'd
addressed. esteemed colleagues. It was like a
really sensitive email and I was like, I'll just
make sure this is the right tone. I think it
was in the early days of Chachibiki before he,
she, it knew me well. So it just inserted like
esteemed colleagues. That was the beginning of
it. I think people should start adding Esquire
onto the end of things again. It's very Victorian.
English teacher called it, isn't it? Anyway,
sorry. Okay. So I think, I think we've got some
good advice. So we're thinking in emails to her,
or is this going to be like a nice communal group
chat? You're like in the team. Okay. Multiple
channels. Talking at the water cooler. Just make,
maybe have a big poster if you're allowed. That's
like AI is shit. Just, just, just at least so
that, you know, the worst case scenario, she
will. be like this guy's no fun and exclude you
from the lunch chat and then you can go off and
have a nice lunch by yourself. That's true actually.
Make yourself unbearable. That's always my advice
to everyone. Yes, yes. But she's already doing
to me so it's like give as good as I'm getting.
Do you know the other thing I wonder about this
is like you probably aren't the only one that
has noticed this and is annoyed by it. Have you
spoken to anyone else in your team? Yes, I actually
have. I've got some sort of allies on site. Just
for your mental health. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
they find it ridiculous as well. And also, like
you said, we've spoken about her like brain frying
from like the overuse of chachi -bichi, so it's
like a real thing. Yeah, I was literally saying
to Zara earlier, I was like, who even, why would
you even want... chat GPT to do everything for
you. And it's like, Oh, no, some people do. And
they are like, just becoming vegetables. It's
quite scary. Yeah, it's so bad. Also, something
you just said reminded just reminded me of this,
but in my work, for some reason, they called
the used to college, they call it generative
AI, but they started, they kept abbreviating
it G AI. But they put in posters being like,
advice on gay. Just be walking down the corridors
and you just see like, gay in huge letters. It's
so it's like that's offensive to me actually.
That's another angle. This has been self aggressive.
I think that's a good point. Like I need to,
I don't think she's actually aware of the downsides.
She's just run with this, which I mean, I love
AI as well, but I'm aware of the dangers and
I don't overuse it. She definitely used risks
just leading into it in a bad way. Are you atrophying
my brain? Will it answer honestly or does it
rely? That's a great question. While AI is totally
safe to use, there have been cases where it has
completely made someone go insane. Yeah, I don't
need to ask AI now. Thank you pretty much. I
mean, I have friends and every time they say
this, I'm like, next time they say I'm going
to say something. But I was checking out where
they will say to me, Oh yeah, I had this mental
health issue worry. So I asked AI. or I had this
question about this person I'm not sure is good.
So I asked AI and I'm like, oh people really
are asking AI therapy, mental health, things
you should ask your doctor. Even a Google is
better because the Google is from websites. and
AI sometimes just makes up stuff. I did see it.
So I was like just going deep into AI again,
but it was like someone had taken a photo of
like a wound or something that like a mysterious
wound and they sent it to chat GBT and then it
kept getting bigger and bigger and they kept
sending more photos. But to be fair, the AI straight
away was like go to a hospital, but like they
just didn't and they just kept sharing pictures
and then eventually they did go to a hospital.
Yeah. Well, I do have a doctor friend, like he's
retired, but he, he, he says the AI for medical
stuff is like so insanely good. Oh, well that's
something. Okay. That's good. As like the NHS
collapses, we can take that dystopian route.
I did see, I did see one juicy AI story. I think
I might've sent it to you, Jack. And it was like
a woman that had gone on her boyfriend's laptop
and she could see his chat GPT history and on
the history it was like, should I break up with
my girlfriend? And he had all these conversations
that was basically encouraging him to break up
with her. Um, but he was also sharing stuff about
her that was like really not great. And then
she broke up. I was like, wow, that is like a
black mirror. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I am obsessed
with the people who fall in love with AI girlfriends
and boyfriends and just the whole the whole route
they've gone down there is is endlessly interesting.
This is I should know myself doing this. But
I guess everyone's doing it. Like, I recently
so I recently was dating someone and then I got
I got ghosted as the version of the story. But
I did post the screenshots of the conversations
with this guy and to chat to BT and I was like,
for the last message because basically he It
was clear he was ghosting me, but I was like,
how should I respond? Anyway, I got it to analyze
the dynamics. It was so enlightening. It just
confirmed what I thought. But it was just saying
that I had been carrying the emotional charge.
moving things along, making plans, suggesting
things. And he was being a passive recipient
and nothing would have happened without my impetus.
So interesting. Either it's either being really
sycophantic, which is known to do well, or there
may be some genuinely useful insights. I'm sure
I fully believe that it's right in this occasion,
but I also I'm skeptical that it does like it
likes to agree with you. Yeah. But I also I'm
sure you were right anyway. Yeah. Regardless.
It did like talk me down from sounding like a
kind of like lashing out. Oh, that's good. it
talked me through what the last message should
be. But then it did reassure me that it was amazing.
Is this Jack's way of hard launching his new
AIO boyfriend? Okay, well that took a turn. Thank
you, Jack, for being an amazing caller. Well,
I called you. Thanks for sharing your problem.
And you feel better now? I do. I feel like a
weight lifted off me just talking about it. So
thank you for nice to talk to humans about technological
problem. Good luck with it. Thank you guys. Bye.
Nice to talk to you. Bye. Bye. Bye. So that was
Jack. I swear I did not set that up. I did not
know what you were going to talk about. I think
it just shows everyone's talking about it. It
is very zeitgeist. I'm on the pulse of what is
cool. Let's hope it's still zeitgeist in the
six months in which I actually edit and release
this. Actually, do you know what? I tend to get
quite obsessed with things and edit very quickly.
So you never know. It'll be done by five a .m.
Yeah, I think so. That brings us to the end of
the first ever spiraling. episode. Do you have
anything to plug Elder Barton? Well, when do
we know when this is coming out? I will try and
get this out before The Fringe. That's a good
target. Yes, I'm at The Fringe. If you're listening
in Scotland, great news. The Fringe is in Scotland.
I'm on every day apart from Mondays and Tuesdays
because I'm lazy at Monkey Barrel Comedy at 1pm.
It's called The Mermaid and it's all about mermaids
and mermaid lore and myths and also about Growing
up in the mid 2000s, Rat Boy Summer, James Cameron's
Submarine, all sorts of other things. So it's
a lot of fun. And if you like mermaids, I think
you'll like it. So please come along. And you're
on like all of the social medias. I'm on all
the social medias and you can check me out on
my podcast, Ellen and Alistair Read That, where
me and Alistair Beckett King read classic kids
literature and then make fun of it. Iconic. And
Radio 4. Yes. Oh, yeah, we should definitely
keep plugging that in January, February, January.
What is time? Earlier this year, me and Zara
did a show called Eleanor and Pals, which was
character comedy. It was me and Zara as Aileen.
And you can still listen to that on BBC Sounds.
And if you listen to it, maybe they'll let us
make more. Although by the time this comes out,
they've probably have said no. And then we'll
do another episode to work through what that
brings up for us. Yes, work through the grief.
But yeah, listen to Eleanor and Pals if you can.
Thank you, Eleanor. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Spiralling
was recorded and edited with jingles written
by me, Zara Gladman. Artwork was by Tom Dees,
who you can follow on Instagram at Easy Peasy
Lemon Deasy. If you enjoyed this and would like
to stop me spiralling about my decision to make
a podcast, then why not leave me a five -star
review on Apple or Spotify? Thanks for listening.