WEBVTT 00:00:01.100 --> 00:00:05.639 Hey, welcome to the intimate breath podcast I'm 00:00:05.639 --> 00:00:08.279 Laura and this is a space where we talk about 00:00:08.279 --> 00:00:12.099 intimacy and sexuality and being human and all 00:00:12.099 --> 00:00:16.879 its messy and beautiful aliveness Sometimes I'm 00:00:16.879 --> 00:00:19.420 speaking by myself. I'm sharing what's moving 00:00:19.420 --> 00:00:22.600 inside of me but sometimes I also speak with 00:00:22.600 --> 00:00:26.079 others and in this episode I'm in a conversation 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:29.000 with Chris who has been joining the last liberation 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:32.840 journey in Belgium and we're really diving into 00:00:32.840 --> 00:00:37.439 his personal story when it comes to opening up 00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:40.840 to intimacy. Part of what we're exploring here 00:00:40.840 --> 00:00:46.520 is what it means to feel ready or not ready for 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:51.359 deeper intimacy, for taking a step. If this episode 00:00:51.359 --> 00:00:54.439 is valuable to you in any way, you can support 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:58.439 us very much by liking, by commenting, by sharing 00:00:58.439 --> 00:01:01.859 this with your friends. these small action steps 00:01:01.859 --> 00:01:04.219 really make a difference and make it possible 00:01:04.219 --> 00:01:08.939 for me to continue creating this content. So 00:01:08.939 --> 00:01:13.659 thank you in advance and I hope you feel as moved 00:01:13.659 --> 00:01:17.319 and inspired by this conversation as I did. Have 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:20.939 a great listen. Hey Chris, welcome. Hey Laura. 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:26.120 If we would look at your life as a book with 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:30.730 different chapters. What would be the title of 00:01:30.730 --> 00:01:33.930 the chapter that we have experienced together 00:01:33.930 --> 00:01:39.750 and working together? That's a good question. 00:01:40.909 --> 00:01:43.909 Yeah. If I were to look at my relational and 00:01:43.909 --> 00:01:48.430 intimate life, I would say that it's still, most 00:01:48.430 --> 00:01:52.189 of it is still an unexplored book. So lots of 00:01:52.189 --> 00:01:55.730 blank pages and the chapter that we experienced 00:01:55.730 --> 00:01:59.840 together was like, I'm just going to say the 00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:01.599 first thing that comes to mind, it feels almost 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:06.159 like a prologue or something. So yeah, like a 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:10.080 way for me to really start writing that book 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:16.180 or to really start creating new chapters in that 00:02:16.180 --> 00:02:20.819 part. So it feels like I needed some tools or 00:02:20.819 --> 00:02:24.300 some insights before I can even actually fully 00:02:24.300 --> 00:02:29.139 dive into into that story. The experience that 00:02:29.139 --> 00:02:32.539 we had together was like, that I was looking 00:02:32.539 --> 00:02:36.520 sort of to fill in the missing pieces and that 00:02:36.520 --> 00:02:41.319 you helped me uncover some of those to start 00:02:41.319 --> 00:02:43.659 laying the groundwork or the foundations of. 00:02:44.620 --> 00:02:47.340 Do you want to tell us a little more about your 00:02:47.340 --> 00:02:50.960 relationship to that book in your life so far? 00:02:54.189 --> 00:02:56.849 It feels like I've been avoiding it for most 00:02:56.849 --> 00:03:00.770 part. There's like a strong contradiction in 00:03:00.770 --> 00:03:04.090 it that part of me really longs to experience 00:03:04.090 --> 00:03:07.289 that part of life and at the same time it also 00:03:07.289 --> 00:03:10.389 really scares me. There's the fear of rejection 00:03:10.389 --> 00:03:12.650 but there's also the fear of what would happen 00:03:12.650 --> 00:03:16.270 if I would actually really dive into that part 00:03:16.270 --> 00:03:20.689 because it's so unknown to me and I have no idea 00:03:20.689 --> 00:03:25.449 how it would affect me both on the on the positive 00:03:25.449 --> 00:03:29.330 side of emotions, so to speak, or also what would 00:03:29.330 --> 00:03:34.569 come up in the conflicts or the friction between 00:03:34.569 --> 00:03:38.349 interacting with somebody that close to me. So 00:03:38.349 --> 00:03:41.949 I really have a hard time to get people to come 00:03:41.949 --> 00:03:46.550 close to me. It's quite easier if I just keep 00:03:46.550 --> 00:03:49.710 people at a certain distance and then we can 00:03:49.710 --> 00:03:53.389 have all sorts of good conversations are really 00:03:53.389 --> 00:03:55.770 warm topics to talk about. But when it gets really 00:03:55.770 --> 00:04:00.389 close, I tend to shut down or go into a freeze 00:04:00.389 --> 00:04:05.569 or avoidance. So there's something in there that 00:04:05.569 --> 00:04:10.969 keeps me from going there, that is afraid to 00:04:10.969 --> 00:04:13.129 really experience that. And at the same time, 00:04:13.129 --> 00:04:18.569 I do really long for it to happen. Yeah. And 00:04:18.569 --> 00:04:24.089 I'm curious how your relationship to the avoidance 00:04:24.089 --> 00:04:27.569 has maybe shifted or maybe not at all. Have you 00:04:27.569 --> 00:04:33.589 noticed any difference there the last year? Yeah, 00:04:34.529 --> 00:04:38.550 I actually do. For me, the scary part is still 00:04:38.550 --> 00:04:41.790 there, but I'm feeling a little more daring in 00:04:41.790 --> 00:04:45.350 reaching out. There were actually a couple of 00:04:45.350 --> 00:04:48.009 people that I was able to tell how I felt and 00:04:48.009 --> 00:04:50.569 they could reciprocate that. they didn't feel 00:04:50.569 --> 00:04:53.290 the same way. So, but it still felt like a win 00:04:53.290 --> 00:04:57.730 because I was able to cross that barrier of not 00:04:57.730 --> 00:05:02.250 being able to reach out or not daring to step 00:05:02.250 --> 00:05:06.589 into that vulnerability of getting an answer 00:05:06.589 --> 00:05:11.350 even. I feel like I'm making slow progress, but 00:05:11.350 --> 00:05:16.649 really, turtle progress, but even then. Turtle 00:05:16.649 --> 00:05:21.399 progress. Yeah. Yeah, but I think it's a huge 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:25.160 step to start to ask. It's such a big difference 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:28.160 between wondering if they would ever say yes 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:32.480 or no or actually finding out and knowing who's 00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:36.439 on board and who's not. Yeah. And these are things 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:40.339 that in the past, the part of me that was scared 00:05:40.339 --> 00:05:44.540 was way too strong in there to even try. And 00:05:44.540 --> 00:05:46.839 now I can still feel both of them and sometimes 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:50.240 I'm still too scared and sometimes the adventurous 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:53.300 part in me is like, okay, go for it. And again, 00:05:53.339 --> 00:05:54.819 with that question, what's the worst that can 00:05:54.819 --> 00:05:58.839 happen? Okay, you can get rejected again, but 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:02.980 I'm starting to get also used to that part and 00:06:02.980 --> 00:06:07.360 then it's not so scary anymore. And once I get 00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:09.639 used to the rejection part, maybe I can also 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:12.800 get used to not being rejected if that would 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:16.540 come. Well, at least I'm open or starting to 00:06:16.540 --> 00:06:21.180 be open to receiving the answer of whatever the 00:06:21.180 --> 00:06:25.000 other person is feeling and being generally okay 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:29.500 with it. Also in the pain, also if there comes 00:06:29.500 --> 00:06:33.180 anger or disappointment or sadness, that I can 00:06:33.180 --> 00:06:35.199 also be okay. Okay, this is what I'm feeling. 00:06:35.220 --> 00:06:37.899 It has nothing to do with the other person. The 00:06:37.899 --> 00:06:40.699 other person is triggering it, but I still, let's 00:06:40.699 --> 00:06:43.019 find out what's still there in me next. It still 00:06:43.019 --> 00:06:45.540 wants to be felt and heard. And then holding 00:06:45.540 --> 00:06:49.699 myself in that. Exactly. It's not about the other 00:06:49.699 --> 00:06:54.819 person. And that's one piece. But the true painful 00:06:54.819 --> 00:06:57.000 rejection is when you make it about yourself, 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:00.740 right? And you, the note that is coming is making 00:07:00.740 --> 00:07:03.259 it mean something about the person that you are. 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:07.060 And I don't hear that in you either. It's like, 00:07:07.220 --> 00:07:09.990 it's not the other person. And this also doesn't 00:07:09.990 --> 00:07:12.529 need to mean something about me. I'm just feeling 00:07:12.529 --> 00:07:15.550 what I'm feeling and I'm hearing a lot of softness 00:07:15.550 --> 00:07:18.970 in that. Yeah, you're getting that right. And 00:07:18.970 --> 00:07:21.050 at the same time, there's also a piece in me 00:07:21.050 --> 00:07:25.509 that's like, because generally this is the advice 00:07:25.509 --> 00:07:27.930 that people give also in relation coaching, don't 00:07:27.930 --> 00:07:30.389 take it personal. And at the same time, there's 00:07:30.389 --> 00:07:32.910 also piece in me, but it is personal because 00:07:32.910 --> 00:07:36.589 it could be that If somebody else goes to the 00:07:36.589 --> 00:07:38.930 same person that you're into and asks that they 00:07:38.930 --> 00:07:41.230 do say yes. So there is a personal aspect to 00:07:41.230 --> 00:07:45.410 it as well. That, okay, they are rejecting you 00:07:45.410 --> 00:07:47.670 for being who you are at that point in time, 00:07:47.689 --> 00:07:49.870 not necessarily for being who you are as a whole 00:07:49.870 --> 00:07:55.949 package. And at some level, you know, okay, it 00:07:55.949 --> 00:07:59.930 is also maybe how they are in their life now, 00:07:59.990 --> 00:08:02.930 what they need and don't need. And that's the 00:08:02.930 --> 00:08:05.980 non -personal part. but at the same time everything 00:08:05.980 --> 00:08:08.560 yeah I don't know if I'm explaining this right 00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:12.279 or it feels like there's also a personal part 00:08:12.279 --> 00:08:17.120 and that I shouldn't push that away just by keeping 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:19.800 it non -personal okay it's nothing to do with 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:22.420 me because then it also feels like I'm avoiding 00:08:22.420 --> 00:08:26.180 a part that's okay I do really feel rejected 00:08:26.180 --> 00:08:31.259 as a being and as a more in the human capacity 00:08:31.259 --> 00:08:33.759 than in the transpersonal capacity or something 00:08:34.840 --> 00:08:37.659 Absolutely, and I really don't want to deny that 00:08:37.659 --> 00:08:41.519 it is personal to some degree. Where it becomes 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:45.200 a problem is when we start shaming ourselves 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:50.580 for who we are. Rather than, yes this is personal 00:08:50.580 --> 00:08:53.440 between you and me. Between you and me right 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:58.860 now, it's not a yes. And that might be... because 00:08:58.860 --> 00:09:02.620 of how I sound, how I move, what I did, how I'm, 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:06.100 you know, like, but that doesn't mean that I'm 00:09:06.100 --> 00:09:10.860 wrong. And I think that's like a nuance that 00:09:10.860 --> 00:09:13.620 you're speaking into now that is super important. 00:09:14.460 --> 00:09:16.299 Indeed, when they're saying this is not personal, 00:09:16.379 --> 00:09:20.980 it's like, yeah, but like it is. It's not a match 00:09:20.980 --> 00:09:23.980 between you and me right now for this particular 00:09:23.980 --> 00:09:27.590 thing. And maybe if it would be another request 00:09:27.590 --> 00:09:31.850 or another desire, it would be a yes for both. 00:09:32.529 --> 00:09:35.970 Maybe it's a yes for drinking tea together. Yeah, 00:09:36.029 --> 00:09:39.789 exactly. I guess what people mean by saying like, 00:09:40.049 --> 00:09:44.870 it's not personal, it's like, your heart is not 00:09:44.870 --> 00:09:49.970 wrong. It's the deep shame that we're talking 00:09:49.970 --> 00:09:53.590 about, I think. Yeah. Yeah, I really love the 00:09:53.590 --> 00:09:58.129 way you put this in. Because if I reflect on 00:09:58.129 --> 00:10:00.690 it and it sounds, it resonates a lot with me 00:10:00.690 --> 00:10:04.809 and I can see how in the past I really felt like 00:10:04.809 --> 00:10:07.330 there was something wrong with me or like going 00:10:07.330 --> 00:10:09.470 into that feeling of shame and not being able 00:10:09.470 --> 00:10:13.169 to handle it and then criticizing myself for 00:10:13.169 --> 00:10:17.970 it or having all these, yeah, again, doubts, 00:10:18.149 --> 00:10:21.570 insecurities and fears taking over. And I can 00:10:21.570 --> 00:10:24.950 feel that the evolution that I made in the past 00:10:24.950 --> 00:10:28.370 year and even before that is like, like you said, 00:10:28.629 --> 00:10:32.190 softening up to that. And, and the really, okay, 00:10:32.309 --> 00:10:35.389 those feelings are still there, but I don't really 00:10:35.389 --> 00:10:41.710 have to, what's the right word? Let them take 00:10:41.710 --> 00:10:45.490 over or something or let them being the only 00:10:45.490 --> 00:10:48.960 truth that that's there. Okay. It's like, Okay, 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:52.200 I hear you. I can, I can feel you. And at the 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:55.019 same time, there's also room for other emotions 00:10:55.019 --> 00:10:59.259 of, yeah, well, not before there was only room 00:10:59.259 --> 00:11:02.940 for those kinds of emotion. And I really identified 00:11:02.940 --> 00:11:06.600 with them and now I can see, okay, I don't really 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:09.220 have to identify with them that much anymore. 00:11:10.620 --> 00:11:13.019 Yeah. And I think that's what really touches 00:11:13.019 --> 00:11:15.779 me and how you're speaking about it now. It seems 00:11:15.779 --> 00:11:18.710 so clear that you're just like, being with what 00:11:18.710 --> 00:11:22.789 comes up in a very compassionate way, but also 00:11:22.789 --> 00:11:27.049 in an honest way. Like this, this sucks or there 00:11:27.049 --> 00:11:30.350 can be anger or disappointment. Yeah, absolutely. 00:11:30.549 --> 00:11:32.330 You're not pushing anything away, but you're 00:11:32.330 --> 00:11:35.009 just being with it and you don't let it take 00:11:35.009 --> 00:11:39.190 over. And it touches me here when we're speaking 00:11:39.190 --> 00:11:42.730 about it, but it's also because I've really been 00:11:42.730 --> 00:11:46.370 seeing you do that throughout the whole journey. 00:11:46.700 --> 00:11:51.000 I recently made a podcast about rejection. So 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:53.860 the theme has been very much with me as well 00:11:53.860 --> 00:12:00.240 lately. And I really feel like your relationship 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:05.100 to getting a no is like my ideal. And I do get 00:12:05.100 --> 00:12:09.059 curious because you were speaking into, I get 00:12:09.059 --> 00:12:12.779 more comfortable getting a no. Could it be that 00:12:12.779 --> 00:12:17.250 at this point in your life, You feel more comfortable 00:12:17.250 --> 00:12:22.309 with a no than with a yes. Yeah, actually it 00:12:22.309 --> 00:12:29.269 is. Because the yes is more unknown territory. 00:12:32.269 --> 00:12:37.090 It feels like you are spot on there. I wouldn't 00:12:37.090 --> 00:12:39.409 use the word caught me there, but still there's 00:12:39.409 --> 00:12:44.279 something like, okay. It feels like the no for 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:49.559 me is okay. Back to where I came from is in the 00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:52.000 comfort zone or getting more into the comfort 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:55.580 zone while the yes is still more outside my comfort 00:12:55.580 --> 00:13:02.460 zone. And then we actually did that in an exercise 00:13:02.460 --> 00:13:04.740 in the last weekend. I go into the territory 00:13:04.740 --> 00:13:09.879 of awkwardness. And it's like, okay, I have no 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:13.899 idea what to do, what to say, what to feel if 00:13:13.899 --> 00:13:18.019 there would come a yes. And then again, the insecurities 00:13:18.019 --> 00:13:22.679 are popping up even stronger. I think I'm following 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:25.200 you and where you are, but do you want to give 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.279 a little bit more context to what you're talking 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:31.940 about here? What was it that you explored in 00:13:31.940 --> 00:13:35.960 the last weekend that brought up all that awkwardness? 00:13:36.680 --> 00:13:39.539 Yeah, we actually did an exercise where people 00:13:39.539 --> 00:13:42.860 were giving feedback. I don't know if I can reconstruct 00:13:42.860 --> 00:13:46.639 it entirely again, but we came to a point where 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:51.379 I practiced going up to a woman alongside with 00:13:51.379 --> 00:13:53.919 somebody who played my wingman, which was a really 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:58.200 great help. And he kind of, yeah, was like, okay, 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:01.059 go for it and encouraging me and then ask for 00:14:01.059 --> 00:14:02.960 her number and these things like this, all the 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:05.990 things I would forget in the awkwardness. And 00:14:05.990 --> 00:14:08.450 we practiced a little bit like that. So there 00:14:08.450 --> 00:14:11.789 were two women I actually approached in this 00:14:11.789 --> 00:14:17.110 way and I could really feel how I was just blabbering 00:14:17.110 --> 00:14:20.509 the first thing that came to me and really lost 00:14:20.509 --> 00:14:24.490 control there or lost my composure. And it was 00:14:24.490 --> 00:14:26.730 also liberating at the same time because the 00:14:26.730 --> 00:14:29.029 awkwardness was just allowed and it was okay 00:14:29.029 --> 00:14:36.899 to be there. yeah it was just a wonderful exercise 00:14:36.899 --> 00:14:39.700 to just be in that moment and to also experience 00:14:39.700 --> 00:14:44.080 that it was okay and that people could look past 00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:48.320 that also because in my head it's like a big 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:51.340 yeah i can't be awkward or what are they going 00:14:51.340 --> 00:14:53.620 to think even not on a conscious level but on 00:14:53.620 --> 00:14:56.559 a subconscious level and by doing that exercise 00:14:56.559 --> 00:15:00.019 you realize well it's not about that the other 00:15:00.019 --> 00:15:04.210 person is also feeling whatever it is for them 00:15:04.210 --> 00:15:07.649 and they can yeah they really can look past those 00:15:07.649 --> 00:15:13.450 first impressions and that helped me yeah to 00:15:13.450 --> 00:15:16.090 realize that we're all in this together and we're 00:15:16.090 --> 00:15:19.649 all having these kind of emotions and what is 00:15:19.649 --> 00:15:21.970 a huge thing to me may not be a huge thing to 00:15:21.970 --> 00:15:24.210 another person or they have already gone through 00:15:24.210 --> 00:15:26.269 that and they recognize it and can look at it 00:15:26.269 --> 00:15:30.610 compassionate okay right yes so this was the 00:15:30.610 --> 00:15:33.399 practice where other people of the group are 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:36.879 actually inviting you to to step into some type 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:40.919 of practice or role play or some type of setup 00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:44.440 that they that they think would be good for you 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:47.960 to try based on what they've seen of you before 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:51.120 and then this was the type of role play that 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:54.919 that they came up with for you exactly yeah and 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:57.720 it did feel a bit like i was acting and i think 00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:00.470 for the other persons as well And at the same 00:16:00.470 --> 00:16:04.370 time it was not. So it was, yeah, I could really 00:16:04.370 --> 00:16:06.429 feel that if I were to do this in real life, 00:16:06.669 --> 00:16:08.929 those were the exact kind of sentiments that 00:16:08.929 --> 00:16:13.950 I would have. That's also, yeah, I really would. 00:16:14.470 --> 00:16:16.570 I can't even feel it now while I'm trying to 00:16:16.570 --> 00:16:20.129 explain it. I'm just generating words almost. 00:16:21.009 --> 00:16:27.250 Trying to accommodate or trying to fill in the 00:16:27.250 --> 00:16:31.110 pieces. Yeah, I'm I really recognize that one 00:16:31.110 --> 00:16:33.509 like I had so much resistance the first time 00:16:33.509 --> 00:16:37.250 I did some type of roleplay practices Because 00:16:37.250 --> 00:16:40.889 I felt like performance and I feel like this 00:16:40.889 --> 00:16:46.870 is like an allergy And and still it's actually 00:16:46.870 --> 00:16:52.409 a really I keep on being surprised by How much 00:16:52.409 --> 00:16:56.470 it can still allow me to to dip my toe into? 00:16:57.640 --> 00:17:03.379 scenarios and really feel like a fraction of 00:17:03.379 --> 00:17:07.740 what would come up. Or maybe even like all the 00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:12.619 real feels, even knowing that it's just a play. 00:17:12.819 --> 00:17:15.500 I don't know, there's something about it as like 00:17:15.500 --> 00:17:23.339 a safer way to try out life. And I guess this 00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:26.160 is the first time I think about it, but that's 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:29.619 what we do as children, right? We play family, 00:17:29.900 --> 00:17:35.420 we play going to the shop. One is behind the 00:17:35.420 --> 00:17:38.920 counter. Yeah. And through the play, we actually 00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:42.779 start exploring these territories until practice 00:17:42.779 --> 00:17:45.980 makes perfect. And it really is like this in 00:17:45.980 --> 00:17:48.420 all kinds of ways, not just in the technical 00:17:48.420 --> 00:17:52.150 parts, but also in in learning how to socialize 00:17:52.150 --> 00:17:56.670 or how to relate and also in exploring our boundaries. 00:17:57.390 --> 00:18:02.109 If you never practice with these then you never 00:18:02.109 --> 00:18:06.430 will get them fully clear as well because otherwise 00:18:06.430 --> 00:18:09.789 we keep imagining these scenarios in our head 00:18:09.789 --> 00:18:13.750 but without the feedback of the other or others 00:18:13.750 --> 00:18:16.970 it's always a one -sided version that you're 00:18:16.970 --> 00:18:19.750 generating. and you only see things from one 00:18:19.750 --> 00:18:22.829 angle and you never get to explore all the other 00:18:22.829 --> 00:18:25.890 angles that other people can bring you or the 00:18:25.890 --> 00:18:30.930 richness of life. Yeah and when it comes to relating 00:18:30.930 --> 00:18:36.569 and physical intimacy there are people who start 00:18:36.569 --> 00:18:39.049 easily and early with that and I would say there 00:18:39.049 --> 00:18:41.630 is this period of trying out things. Some people 00:18:41.630 --> 00:18:44.710 like their first girlfriend or boyfriend is like 00:18:44.710 --> 00:18:48.440 the love of their life right but But often there's 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:52.480 like a testing and trying period. And if that 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:56.359 doesn't come by itself and I have multiple clients 00:18:56.359 --> 00:18:59.019 like that, it's also like, where do you have 00:18:59.019 --> 00:19:03.900 like that step before that is more in a facilitated 00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:08.819 place? I can relate to the part that I, for me 00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:12.279 in, like I say, in high school or in the age 00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:18.569 or the teenager age, I really wasn't My mind 00:19:18.569 --> 00:19:21.309 wasn't focused on relationship at all yet. I 00:19:21.309 --> 00:19:24.369 wasn't mature enough at that point to even start 00:19:24.369 --> 00:19:27.769 going into that territory. So I automatically 00:19:27.769 --> 00:19:30.349 rejected anyone who would even come up to me 00:19:30.349 --> 00:19:32.750 and say, yeah, do you want to try out or do you 00:19:32.750 --> 00:19:36.829 want to, in Dutch we say, I'll mark it. I don't 00:19:36.829 --> 00:19:40.009 know how to say it in English. Yeah, we have 00:19:40.009 --> 00:19:44.069 this, um, at least Flemish expression that's 00:19:44.069 --> 00:19:48.339 like, can we make it on is like the very literal 00:19:48.339 --> 00:19:54.259 translation and that means like kids that are 00:19:54.259 --> 00:19:56.559 asking each other like hey can we be together 00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:00.500 can we be a couple now yeah yeah so at that age 00:20:00.500 --> 00:20:04.019 i really wasn't my mind and focus were on totally 00:20:04.019 --> 00:20:07.759 different things and uh i was really in my own 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:10.859 bubble as well so i had no idea what other people 00:20:10.859 --> 00:20:14.720 were feeling or Yeah. Or thinking about me, it 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:18.940 was like really admit into my own cocoon. So 00:20:18.940 --> 00:20:22.039 for me, that it didn't even come up to me that 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:24.099 that was a possibility and that they could try 00:20:24.099 --> 00:20:27.680 and explore things. Um, there was no room in 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:31.539 me for, for any kind of exploration at that time. 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:35.759 And later on, when I entered after school and 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:39.900 I did graduate, then I was in a mostly boys. 00:20:40.460 --> 00:20:42.940 area, so there was not much room for exploration 00:20:42.940 --> 00:20:45.819 there either. And I found that it got progressively 00:20:45.819 --> 00:20:48.980 harder because I started going into an age where 00:20:48.980 --> 00:20:52.380 people already met somebody, started having families 00:20:52.380 --> 00:20:56.039 and children. And the older I came, I'm 14 now, 00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:58.720 and I still find that it's more and more harder 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:03.240 to really connect with people who were at the 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:06.579 same threshold that I am. Like feeling, okay, 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:08.920 now I'm finally starting to get ready. And people 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:12.440 are like, Okay we're already way past that point 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:17.119 and even if they don't have partners or families 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:21.519 they usually have a lot more experience already 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:24.559 they already know better what they want and don't 00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:28.799 want anymore and for me it's still like yeah 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:31.680 I really still have to start and that's the point. 00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:35.740 So it sounds like you've been exploring now in 00:21:35.740 --> 00:21:38.799 facilitated spaces? You've been to some retreats 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:41.180 and you've been to the liberation journey and 00:21:41.180 --> 00:21:43.759 you've become comfortable with your no, getting 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:47.880 a no. And it sounds like the next step is becoming 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:54.160 comfortable with a yes. Yeah, but I'm asking 00:21:54.160 --> 00:22:00.859 your intuition here. What's your next step? If 00:22:00.859 --> 00:22:05.039 I would just not think about it, then the next 00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:10.690 step would be to to explore my joy. What comes 00:22:10.690 --> 00:22:15.630 up is that I really, yeah, it's less about going 00:22:15.630 --> 00:22:18.670 into the field of trying to meet somebody, but 00:22:18.670 --> 00:22:21.950 more about finding or going to activities that 00:22:21.950 --> 00:22:25.630 bring me joy. And that from that kind of space 00:22:25.630 --> 00:22:29.029 of feeling more joy and not only the frustrations 00:22:29.029 --> 00:22:32.589 and the pain and the sadness of being on my own, 00:22:32.650 --> 00:22:36.180 but really going out there and and start having 00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:39.960 fun in life and that will automatically make 00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:43.599 me more attractive, but also feeling the pleasure 00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:47.259 in myself. And from that point, being able to 00:22:47.259 --> 00:22:49.420 share that with somebody is a lot more interesting 00:22:49.420 --> 00:22:52.640 than being able to go and let's talk about my 00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:55.720 misery in life or let's talk about all the pain 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:59.859 we've gone through, like the trauma kind of cycle. 00:23:01.849 --> 00:23:04.369 I can stay in there for the rest of my life, 00:23:04.470 --> 00:23:07.369 but in general, I can't find people who can support 00:23:07.369 --> 00:23:09.430 me in this kind of, but it's not interesting 00:23:09.430 --> 00:23:14.869 to stay with people. I can imagine for myself 00:23:14.869 --> 00:23:18.109 if I would be interested in somebody and it's 00:23:18.109 --> 00:23:21.190 the only thing that comes to as a topic. And 00:23:21.190 --> 00:23:24.150 at some point I would also be like, okay, you 00:23:24.150 --> 00:23:26.769 still need to figure out this kind of stuff before 00:23:26.769 --> 00:23:30.450 we can actually go further. And that's like, 00:23:30.450 --> 00:23:34.099 that feels like the the next step to me. That's 00:23:34.099 --> 00:23:39.660 not really having to deal with this kind of baggage 00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:41.539 from the past anymore because I've been doing 00:23:41.539 --> 00:23:44.019 that for the past 20 years, maybe even now, but 00:23:44.019 --> 00:23:47.079 really start looking in the opposite direction 00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:53.339 and, okay, what brings me joy? So do I get it 00:23:53.339 --> 00:23:57.579 right that you have seen yourself being that 00:23:57.579 --> 00:24:01.579 person that connects with people over pain? and 00:24:01.579 --> 00:24:06.039 over struggles more than over joy? Like is that 00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:11.859 where you come from? Yeah, actually. Yeah, I 00:24:11.859 --> 00:24:15.960 feel that if somebody is struggling, I can be 00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:18.759 a very good listener to that person and I can 00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:22.140 be there for them. But when people come together 00:24:22.140 --> 00:24:25.339 in joy, I found myself more on the sideline. 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:29.660 And again, not knowing how to interact with people 00:24:29.660 --> 00:24:33.779 in that kind of way. I really recognize that 00:24:33.779 --> 00:24:37.599 from when I was a student in Ghent where I had 00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:41.579 this shift somewhere where I noticed, huh, there 00:24:41.579 --> 00:24:44.259 are these certain people in my life and they 00:24:44.259 --> 00:24:47.480 are only in my life because they come to me when 00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:49.559 they're having a hard time and I'm listening 00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:52.440 to them. And that's our connection point. And 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:56.259 I'm really trying to be their friend, but I'm 00:24:56.259 --> 00:25:00.700 not part of their of the beauty in their life. 00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:04.940 And I remember really having like the scary moment 00:25:04.940 --> 00:25:08.660 of actually starting to say no to that also. 00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:13.339 And thus yes to something else, right? So I, 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:16.460 yeah, I recognize what you're saying. And for 00:25:16.460 --> 00:25:20.420 me, that also meant losing some people. And I'm 00:25:20.420 --> 00:25:23.680 aware that doesn't need to mean that, but like 00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:28.240 how we connect is... We all have our preferences, 00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:33.359 right? Yeah, and sometimes it's just also a habit 00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:37.519 from childhood that we're not even aware of, 00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:41.339 that that's our connection point or that's what 00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:43.480 we're doing to other people or meaning to other 00:25:43.480 --> 00:25:48.539 people. And I don't want to make it wrong because 00:25:48.539 --> 00:25:52.799 there is meaning in it and it can be very supportive. 00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:57.240 But when it's only aimed towards the other and 00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:00.720 not towards ourselves, then we're not being supportive 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:05.519 to our inner needs and our inner desires. And 00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:07.259 then it feels like the same with the emotion. 00:26:07.299 --> 00:26:11.119 If we only make room for supporting another, 00:26:11.980 --> 00:26:15.720 we don't have the room to explore what it is 00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:19.279 that we actually dream of or desire in life. 00:26:20.460 --> 00:26:23.990 And I do also feel that Again, then it becomes 00:26:23.990 --> 00:26:27.170 more scarier for me. Cause again, that's not, 00:26:27.349 --> 00:26:29.829 and I, my mind is starting to, but what it is, 00:26:30.109 --> 00:26:34.109 what do I desire? How will I, yeah. Trying to 00:26:34.109 --> 00:26:37.369 form a practical step -by -step plan or something 00:26:37.369 --> 00:26:43.809 or trying to do this. There's one thing that 00:26:43.809 --> 00:26:45.910 I'm not good at is making something concrete. 00:26:46.150 --> 00:26:49.829 I can't stay in the abstract for very long. And 00:26:49.829 --> 00:26:52.049 I think it's also because I'm scared to actually 00:26:52.049 --> 00:26:56.569 try. So I try to imagine it in my mind. And once 00:26:56.569 --> 00:26:59.650 it's clear, then I can go for it. But life doesn't 00:26:59.650 --> 00:27:02.710 work that way. Life sometimes asks, go try this, 00:27:02.769 --> 00:27:10.089 go try that, go try this. To take the step actually 00:27:10.089 --> 00:27:13.009 and just figure it out as you go, okay, this 00:27:13.009 --> 00:27:15.049 is not the way I want to go further. I'm just 00:27:15.049 --> 00:27:18.119 going to turn to a different direction. All right, 00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:22.019 this feels better. And that's the kind of way 00:27:22.019 --> 00:27:24.839 of doing things that I have been avoiding in 00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:28.039 a certain way. Yeah. So staying in the abstract 00:27:28.039 --> 00:27:31.680 has been one way for you to avoid. Yeah. And 00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:34.039 it really sounds like, you know, getting comfortable 00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:36.859 with the yes. Imagine you're asking me, hey, 00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:42.000 can we cuddle for some minutes, lay down and 00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:46.500 spoon and breathe together? That my reply, the 00:27:46.500 --> 00:27:50.059 yes. is more scary and then when I hear you speak 00:27:50.059 --> 00:27:53.900 into just life and focusing on the things that 00:27:53.900 --> 00:27:56.599 bring you joy it's really like the bigger yes 00:27:56.599 --> 00:27:59.299 it's not to one person just like but in life 00:27:59.299 --> 00:28:02.380 like focusing on can I get comfortable with the 00:28:02.380 --> 00:28:06.779 yes can I get comfortable with the yes it's what 00:28:06.779 --> 00:28:10.279 keeps on coming back yeah yeah and while you 00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:15.799 were saying yeah if the potential scenario then 00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:19.559 I could feel in my body that if I were to imagine 00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:22.339 that you were saying yes to the crudling and 00:28:22.339 --> 00:28:26.839 spooning, that is a fear in myself that what 00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.099 if I want more then, so if that would come up. 00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:35.700 So I'm also afraid of that being able to get 00:28:35.700 --> 00:28:39.079 this little desire what I want and then immediately 00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:43.000 that I would attach a bigger desire onto it. 00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:46.619 So there's a fear that that would come up and 00:28:46.619 --> 00:28:50.119 that I would like, I don't know, somehow attach 00:28:50.119 --> 00:28:54.099 myself towards you in this hypothetical scenario 00:28:54.099 --> 00:28:57.440 or any other person that says yes to me. And 00:28:57.440 --> 00:28:59.819 so there's like, this is interesting because 00:28:59.819 --> 00:29:03.160 I wasn't aware of that sort of fear of becoming 00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:08.839 attached to someone. Because maybe that's how 00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:11.720 it feels in the past. I've known the feel of 00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:15.119 losing that. connection and then being thrown 00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:19.180 into chaos or helplessness. I think it's beautiful 00:29:19.180 --> 00:29:21.380 that you notice that right away. I love that 00:29:21.380 --> 00:29:24.500 you're bringing in the body awareness right away 00:29:24.500 --> 00:29:28.619 as we speak about this and I really have the 00:29:28.619 --> 00:29:34.319 same attitude to life because I notice I have 00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:38.420 a dream or a desire and then it would be so easy 00:29:38.420 --> 00:29:41.990 when I'm there to only focus on the next desire. 00:29:42.130 --> 00:29:43.569 And there's always going to be a next desire. 00:29:43.710 --> 00:29:46.309 There's always going to be a next desire. And 00:29:46.309 --> 00:29:50.450 I am really such a fan of gratitude practices 00:29:50.450 --> 00:29:53.950 because it's being grateful for what is now and 00:29:53.950 --> 00:29:57.509 from there seeing the next desire and being able 00:29:57.509 --> 00:29:59.349 to be with that because there's always going 00:29:59.349 --> 00:30:03.069 to be more that I want. And I'm speaking for 00:30:03.069 --> 00:30:06.829 myself is like, can I be with the wanting more? 00:30:07.930 --> 00:30:11.730 without feeling like the now is not. But to come 00:30:11.730 --> 00:30:17.589 back to your desire or the hypothetical scenario 00:30:17.589 --> 00:30:22.630 that we had, I really want to bring compassion 00:30:22.630 --> 00:30:25.910 to all the people. And I don't know if this is 00:30:25.910 --> 00:30:27.869 you, because I know you're in a lot of touch 00:30:27.869 --> 00:30:31.690 -positive spaces, right? But I want to bring 00:30:31.690 --> 00:30:33.869 compassion to all the people that actually just 00:30:33.869 --> 00:30:37.730 are really hungry for touch. And it is. a very 00:30:37.730 --> 00:30:42.210 human, real need. And so it makes a lot of sense 00:30:42.210 --> 00:30:45.970 that when we do get it then that there's like 00:30:45.970 --> 00:30:52.349 maybe an overwhelming release of oxytocin and 00:30:52.349 --> 00:30:57.230 serotonin. And it's very easy to feel like, wow, 00:30:57.490 --> 00:31:02.250 this person is now finally helping me to access 00:31:02.250 --> 00:31:12.140 this in my life. It's very real. Yeah. And even 00:31:12.140 --> 00:31:16.220 though I am in those spaces, I do feel I resonate 00:31:16.220 --> 00:31:19.920 a lot with that because I do feel this need for 00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:22.859 touch as well in my daily life. And that's the 00:31:22.859 --> 00:31:25.559 contrast that I have by going to these places. 00:31:26.619 --> 00:31:28.759 Then that need gets fulfilled, but only for a 00:31:28.759 --> 00:31:32.160 short time. And I don't, yeah, I'm still struggling 00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:36.089 with the the being able to fulfill those needs 00:31:36.089 --> 00:31:38.829 for connection in a more continuous way so that 00:31:38.829 --> 00:31:44.569 it's part of daily life and not something I experienced 00:31:44.569 --> 00:31:48.509 then once in several months and then again nothing. 00:31:49.750 --> 00:31:53.849 So there's a bit of a contrast and a struggle 00:31:53.849 --> 00:31:58.190 there in how to make this a more continuous reality. 00:31:59.250 --> 00:32:02.650 Yeah, it's almost like When you speak into getting 00:32:02.650 --> 00:32:05.349 comfortable with the know and you're speaking 00:32:05.349 --> 00:32:09.029 about the possible feelings that come up the 00:32:09.029 --> 00:32:13.589 anger the disappointment the sadness the Can 00:32:13.589 --> 00:32:15.990 we be with the feelings that come up when there's 00:32:15.990 --> 00:32:21.509 a yes the possible? Attraction the possible desire 00:32:21.509 --> 00:32:25.450 the possible Yeah, what else could it be? attachments 00:32:25.450 --> 00:32:35.490 and the possible joy, enthusiasm, fun. Yeah. 00:32:35.670 --> 00:32:38.730 Yeah. And I did actually experience this once 00:32:38.730 --> 00:32:43.890 in my life. It's, I think it's over, yeah, maybe 00:32:43.890 --> 00:32:48.650 13 years ago that I was really attracted to someone. 00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:51.859 And I didn't explore that first, but at some 00:32:51.859 --> 00:32:54.799 point I also dared to venture out and ask her 00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:56.960 out and say that it was okay. I really enjoyed 00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:00.440 this connection. And we met up and there was 00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:02.680 an instant attraction towards me and her and 00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:07.480 it was in the first stage mutual. And so, yeah, 00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:10.039 we just had a, in a cafe, we drank something 00:33:10.039 --> 00:33:12.200 and we, I actually went over with her to her 00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:15.299 place. I mean, yeah, I had a wonderful evening 00:33:15.299 --> 00:33:18.539 just in the conversation, but looking back on 00:33:18.539 --> 00:33:21.880 it, it was clear that if if i had asked her she 00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:23.839 would have been into four kissing or anything 00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:26.539 but at that point i didn't even realize that 00:33:26.539 --> 00:33:29.200 or maybe i did realize that but the emotions 00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:34.920 were so strong and overwhelming and i could feel 00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:38.420 like my entire body was opening and there was 00:33:38.420 --> 00:33:40.940 an immense energy flow that i had never experienced 00:33:40.940 --> 00:33:46.160 before but because it was also the first time 00:33:48.379 --> 00:33:51.319 Yeah, I could feel like also again this this 00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:55.460 contrast between Do I dare to express this or 00:33:55.460 --> 00:33:59.880 do I keep it within and Anyway, yeah, it was 00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:02.519 it was a beautiful evening on its own Even though 00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:05.960 nothing happens in terms of touch or physical 00:34:05.960 --> 00:34:08.139 relating, but there was a wonderful connection 00:34:08.139 --> 00:34:11.699 But the thing is that afterwards we both had 00:34:11.699 --> 00:34:14.039 planned and we didn't see each other for a while 00:34:14.510 --> 00:34:17.489 And I kind of was left with those feelings and 00:34:17.489 --> 00:34:20.730 unable to really express them anymore, other 00:34:20.730 --> 00:34:23.889 than through chat. I can't reconstruct the whole 00:34:23.889 --> 00:34:26.449 story anymore, but anyway, she went to her holidays 00:34:26.449 --> 00:34:30.949 at that point. I also had a week in France at 00:34:30.949 --> 00:34:33.170 that time. So there was like a whole period where 00:34:33.170 --> 00:34:36.190 we didn't see each other anymore. And then suddenly 00:34:36.190 --> 00:34:38.409 she went silent and I didn't know what was going 00:34:38.409 --> 00:34:41.369 on. So I was really triggered in my fear of, 00:34:41.590 --> 00:34:47.409 oh, I'm losing her. And then. That's kind of 00:34:47.409 --> 00:34:50.789 made me act in a way of trying to really, yeah, 00:34:51.130 --> 00:34:53.849 give more energy and reaching out again and again 00:34:53.849 --> 00:34:58.090 and again. And then for her, this was triggering, 00:34:58.550 --> 00:35:01.610 okay, trying to be possessive or anything. So 00:35:01.610 --> 00:35:03.889 this was like a whole dynamic that started to 00:35:03.889 --> 00:35:06.969 show itself while it turned out that she had 00:35:06.969 --> 00:35:10.869 been hospitalized for a few days because I didn't 00:35:10.869 --> 00:35:14.460 know I was really, yeah. starting to assume and 00:35:14.460 --> 00:35:19.719 fill in the blanks. And a long story short, so 00:35:19.719 --> 00:35:23.679 it ended up that, yeah, we didn't meet up again 00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:26.219 anymore. And she was like, okay, I want distance. 00:35:26.260 --> 00:35:28.159 And I couldn't give her that distance. I really 00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:31.699 wanted to connect with her. And then the feelings 00:35:31.699 --> 00:35:34.179 and the impulses at that point were too strong. 00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:38.099 So even though I knew she needed that distance, 00:35:39.219 --> 00:35:42.539 I couldn't stop myself from reaching out again 00:35:42.539 --> 00:35:45.900 and trying to connect again. And in the end it 00:35:45.900 --> 00:35:47.840 was just like, okay, I don't want to see you 00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:52.119 anymore and stop contacting me. So I even went 00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:55.260 a bit into the area of, well, yeah, not that 00:35:55.260 --> 00:35:58.219 I was going physically towards her, but stalking 00:35:58.219 --> 00:35:59.960 in the sense that I couldn't leave her alone. 00:36:00.340 --> 00:36:08.539 So there's a lot of fear and yeah, anxiety that 00:36:08.539 --> 00:36:12.820 if I were to really allow myself to feel in love 00:36:12.820 --> 00:36:16.380 again or feel this attraction that I would go 00:36:16.380 --> 00:36:20.460 again into being too much and let my enthusiasm 00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:25.260 or my need take over and not being able to see 00:36:25.260 --> 00:36:30.320 and hold the other person in their needs. Wow, 00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:33.059 Chris, I really want to appreciate you for your 00:36:33.059 --> 00:36:37.159 honesty. First and foremost to yourself, looking 00:36:37.159 --> 00:36:41.880 back. Because you're speaking into things that 00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:45.480 I'm imagining most people recognize very much 00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:49.900 to some degree or from from some angle But the 00:36:49.900 --> 00:36:53.500 way you're just like so honestly and and with 00:36:53.500 --> 00:36:55.840 the with the awareness that you've gained now 00:36:55.840 --> 00:37:01.960 afterwards as well I I have goosebumps and I 00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:07.730 can really see would you started with right when 00:37:07.730 --> 00:37:09.809 we when we started speaking and you said just 00:37:09.809 --> 00:37:13.909 like oh, there's so much longing and then there's 00:37:13.909 --> 00:37:19.610 so much resistance or fear or avoidance and once 00:37:19.610 --> 00:37:23.289 the avoidance is taken down because the attraction 00:37:23.289 --> 00:37:26.650 is is big and you build trust and you felt good 00:37:26.650 --> 00:37:30.610 with her the other part is It has been waiting 00:37:30.610 --> 00:37:35.019 for so many years already, right? Yeah It sounds 00:37:35.019 --> 00:37:40.340 like a very insightful experience as in that 00:37:40.340 --> 00:37:42.559 there's a lot of learnings that you can take 00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:45.659 with you from that and it sounds like next time 00:37:45.659 --> 00:37:49.780 maybe you do feel ready to ask for the hug or 00:37:49.780 --> 00:37:52.880 the kiss or the holding hands while you're talking, 00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:57.559 whatever first kind of step closer you want to 00:37:57.559 --> 00:38:03.860 take. And it also sounds like you've really experienced 00:38:03.860 --> 00:38:09.099 the pain it can cause to be taken away by the 00:38:09.099 --> 00:38:12.639 desire and the disconnection it can cause. And 00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:16.460 I'm also imagining that next time there too, 00:38:16.460 --> 00:38:21.000 you would try something else. Yeah, I can feel 00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:24.380 that. It has been a whole process and it actually 00:38:24.380 --> 00:38:28.679 took me years to go to rebuild my inner. It was 00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:31.559 like all the foundations were gone at that point. 00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:35.300 And I really crashed, went into burnout also, 00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:39.679 not feeling great at work anymore as well, and 00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:43.340 then this relational stuff. And so even though 00:38:43.340 --> 00:38:45.659 our connection was very short and I actually 00:38:45.659 --> 00:38:48.039 had seen her only once or twice, it took me years 00:38:48.039 --> 00:38:51.219 to recover from that. Feeling a lot of depression 00:38:51.219 --> 00:38:55.400 as well in that moment. And actually having also 00:38:55.400 --> 00:38:58.000 a flare of it resurfacing of really wanting to 00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:01.610 connect to her. And then again, from her there 00:39:01.610 --> 00:39:04.590 was I could feel there was compassion but also 00:39:04.590 --> 00:39:07.570 no I don't want to meet you anymore and not finding 00:39:07.570 --> 00:39:12.309 closure and all that so I feel it has been a 00:39:12.309 --> 00:39:15.789 whole process of a lot of pain and and really 00:39:15.789 --> 00:39:19.809 being also going into depression and needing 00:39:19.809 --> 00:39:23.570 support and that but looking back on it I can't 00:39:23.570 --> 00:39:26.909 see how it was an experience that taught me so 00:39:26.909 --> 00:39:31.980 much yeah and I can imagine that next time even 00:39:31.980 --> 00:39:35.619 if it were to happen again because I already 00:39:35.619 --> 00:39:38.780 experienced it once that there was like oh I 00:39:38.780 --> 00:39:41.380 can recognize it somehow okay this is what's 00:39:41.380 --> 00:39:45.440 happening yeah how can I deal differently with 00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:48.940 it now this time without knowing how it would 00:39:48.940 --> 00:39:53.159 be and like in the practice at the third weekend 00:39:53.969 --> 00:39:59.090 Maybe you can ask for a wingman in the process. 00:40:00.769 --> 00:40:05.130 Yeah. A wing woman, wing person. Yeah. And sometimes 00:40:05.130 --> 00:40:07.510 it's, yeah, I really experienced it in the practice 00:40:07.510 --> 00:40:10.530 that how supportive it is just to have a person 00:40:10.530 --> 00:40:13.789 there. Even this is just to gently give you a 00:40:13.789 --> 00:40:19.250 little nudge. You told us that it can be hard 00:40:19.250 --> 00:40:22.980 for you to make things concrete. So here I am 00:40:22.980 --> 00:40:27.300 asking you, what are the things that you're going 00:40:27.300 --> 00:40:30.519 to be doing the next coming month, the next coming 00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:40.980 weeks that are that yes to joy? Well, I actually 00:40:40.980 --> 00:40:44.619 have a few things coming up. So this Saturday, 00:40:44.679 --> 00:40:46.519 I'm going to meet with some friends I haven't 00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:49.900 seen in actually a couple of years again. And 00:40:49.900 --> 00:40:53.659 I kind of assumed that the friendship was fading 00:40:53.659 --> 00:40:56.239 out and they were going in a different direction. 00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:59.059 So it was a pleasant surprise to suddenly hear 00:40:59.059 --> 00:41:01.420 from them that they wanted to meet up again. 00:41:02.420 --> 00:41:11.739 So yay to that. And Sunday, I also have a session 00:41:11.739 --> 00:41:14.960 of sort of hypnosis session also with a person 00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:18.510 from another retreat. was like searching for 00:41:18.510 --> 00:41:22.570 people to practice with and she actually also 00:41:22.570 --> 00:41:26.730 asked it long months before but then we couldn't 00:41:26.730 --> 00:41:29.269 schedule it and she got it and I had something 00:41:29.269 --> 00:41:33.230 so when we finally got it scheduled so also there 00:41:33.230 --> 00:41:38.010 and the weekend next weekend I have plans for 00:41:38.010 --> 00:41:42.469 a plant ceremony with teachers from I think Brazil 00:41:42.469 --> 00:41:46.309 or Peru from the jungle actually calling so yeah 00:41:46.429 --> 00:41:49.110 I can feel that there are a few things now in 00:41:49.110 --> 00:41:50.949 the pipeline that I'm really looking forward 00:41:50.949 --> 00:41:55.690 to. Yeah. You can see it in your face. There 00:41:55.690 --> 00:42:01.329 are concrete things. Cool. Yeah. And I think 00:42:01.329 --> 00:42:04.070 that's also, it's kind of funny. I turned 40 00:42:04.070 --> 00:42:09.369 this year and it's like in 25 years I started 00:42:09.369 --> 00:42:12.550 saying yes to things and it's like the flow is 00:42:12.550 --> 00:42:15.869 starting to form itself. Because I imagined it 00:42:15.869 --> 00:42:18.070 after our last weekend together, I didn't really 00:42:18.070 --> 00:42:19.989 have anything concrete anymore. And I was like, 00:42:20.070 --> 00:42:23.030 okay, now things are going to quiet down. And 00:42:23.030 --> 00:42:25.889 all of a sudden, yeah, I'm getting invitations 00:42:25.889 --> 00:42:29.130 or, or things are popping up and I'm like, oh 00:42:29.130 --> 00:42:31.090 yeah, I'm interested in this. And just exploring 00:42:31.090 --> 00:42:35.349 that is like, it's like, yeah, the flow is creating 00:42:35.349 --> 00:42:37.449 itself and I just have to go along with it. And 00:42:37.449 --> 00:42:40.750 it's a very pleasant feeling to, to just be open 00:42:40.750 --> 00:42:44.920 to it and not automatically reject it. Also not 00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:48.420 automatically say yes to whatever comes up, but 00:42:48.420 --> 00:42:50.980 feel into it and being able to, okay, what can 00:42:50.980 --> 00:42:56.360 this bring me? Yeah. I can really feel this fulfillment 00:42:56.360 --> 00:43:00.639 in people that are participating in my programs 00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:06.219 or workshops that they can really take it home 00:43:06.219 --> 00:43:10.239 and do it themselves at some point. And of course 00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:14.090 it, you know, they can come back and from a purely 00:43:14.090 --> 00:43:16.650 like business mindset, it would be great if they're 00:43:16.650 --> 00:43:20.110 just completely dependent on the kind of spaces 00:43:20.110 --> 00:43:22.690 and they just have to come back to get the experience. 00:43:23.389 --> 00:43:28.829 But that doesn't, when people keep on coming 00:43:28.829 --> 00:43:31.230 back and it's almost like the workshops are more 00:43:31.230 --> 00:43:36.170 a flight from their daily life or like, you know, 00:43:36.210 --> 00:43:37.949 they want to get something and then they go back 00:43:37.949 --> 00:43:40.809 to the life that isn't, they're not really integrating. 00:43:41.289 --> 00:43:45.369 what they're getting from. It's like, stop. I 00:43:45.369 --> 00:43:49.969 don't want you anymore. I really feel that. And 00:43:49.969 --> 00:43:56.309 kind of like, hey, hello, wake up. Why are you 00:43:56.309 --> 00:43:59.449 doing this? And I have not at all been feeling 00:43:59.449 --> 00:44:01.869 that to you, so that's not why I'm sharing it. 00:44:02.230 --> 00:44:06.230 But it's just, it's like, I am so excited about 00:44:06.230 --> 00:44:11.860 you stepping more into the yes. Yeah, and I can 00:44:11.860 --> 00:44:16.199 feel that that is a jet one and that's also the 00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:18.800 I think what part of me that first attracted 00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:21.360 me to to going into the liberation journey with 00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:25.699 you even though I hadn't Met you physically or 00:44:25.699 --> 00:44:29.400 or we didn't have any contact before Not even 00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:31.940 yeah, we did had a small in day, but the decision 00:44:31.940 --> 00:44:35.000 was already made before is that I can feel you 00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:40.170 you radiate your own honesty and genuine, this 00:44:40.170 --> 00:44:43.750 is me. And you're not hiding your own struggles 00:44:43.750 --> 00:44:47.150 either. So I think that gives a lot of confidence. 00:44:48.070 --> 00:44:51.730 Yeah. To just, yeah, trust the person that is 00:44:51.730 --> 00:44:55.090 in front of this offering. And the way I see 00:44:55.090 --> 00:44:57.429 it, you have two kinds of businesses. You have 00:44:57.429 --> 00:44:59.369 businesses that indeed make people dependent 00:44:59.369 --> 00:45:01.989 on their products and just want to sell more 00:45:01.989 --> 00:45:05.480 and more and more and keeping them hooked. And 00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:08.519 then you have other business that like you want 00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:12.659 to provide that's okay, I'm giving you the tools 00:45:12.659 --> 00:45:15.800 to do it on your own. And then those people will 00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:18.320 bring in new people because their enthusiasm, 00:45:18.940 --> 00:45:21.679 that's how I feel. They will automatically share 00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:25.320 with others, oh, I've been there. Or other people 00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:27.300 will notice, wow, there's something different 00:45:27.300 --> 00:45:30.820 about you. What happened? So I wouldn't worry 00:45:30.820 --> 00:45:34.380 about it from a business. Because the word of 00:45:34.380 --> 00:45:37.440 mouth will get around even in ways you might 00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:43.300 not expect. And then people sometimes, I'm thinking 00:45:43.300 --> 00:45:46.739 one -on -one clients now, they come back maybe 00:45:46.739 --> 00:45:50.800 like a year later for another series of sessions. 00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:54.380 And it's maybe another, feels like another layer 00:45:54.380 --> 00:45:58.579 or another theme. So of course that's another 00:45:58.579 --> 00:46:02.780 thing. Do they come back with the same team over 00:46:02.780 --> 00:46:05.099 and over again? Or do you see, oh, they have 00:46:05.099 --> 00:46:09.159 evolved and they're nearly to the next bar. Like 00:46:09.159 --> 00:46:12.760 you said, there's a huge difference there. Great. 00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:18.619 I suggest that we wrap up. Is there anything 00:46:18.619 --> 00:46:24.239 more that you want to add? Yeah, just that I'm 00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:28.099 grateful for this opportunity. I feel even this 00:46:29.550 --> 00:46:33.449 podcast has brought me new insights and awareness 00:46:33.449 --> 00:46:38.070 into my body. I'm very grateful for the opportunity 00:46:38.070 --> 00:46:42.349 that you've given me. Woohoo! I'm also grateful 00:46:42.349 --> 00:46:47.809 that's a match. And thank you for listening and 00:46:47.809 --> 00:46:50.809 being a part of this. The next Liberation Journey 00:46:50.809 --> 00:46:56.230 is scheduled for January 2026 in Sweden. More 00:46:56.230 --> 00:46:59.510 specifically in a village where I live with beautiful 00:46:59.510 --> 00:47:02.909 surroundings. The liberation journey exists of 00:47:02.909 --> 00:47:07.449 three in -person weekends spread over six months 00:47:07.449 --> 00:47:12.210 and calls in between and after. If you're curious, 00:47:12.510 --> 00:47:14.889 just reach out and I'm happy to talk about it. 00:47:15.050 --> 00:47:18.409 Same for if you're wondering one -on -one guidance, 00:47:18.909 --> 00:47:22.190 just send me a message and I'll schedule a call 00:47:22.190 --> 00:47:25.320 with you to talk about that possibility. Have 00:47:25.320 --> 00:47:25.900 a great day.