WEBVTT

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Baseball ownership seems simple enough. Pay for

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good players, good players play well. Get paid

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for people coming to watch the good players play

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well. If only it were that easy. Before the players

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union took control of the playing population,

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the lords of the game held all the cards. Lords

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was really short for overlords. Between the reserve

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clause, antitrust establishment, and the popularity

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of the boyhood game, the owners felt they could

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do no wrong. From the start of the National League

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in 1871 to now, so many owners still run the

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game as they see fit. Sure, Landis came along

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in 1920, but he was hired by the owners. The

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commissionership is still an extension of the

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owners, making sure money continues to flow into

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their pockets for over 100 years. From John Hayler's

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Lords of the Realm, some teams were operated

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as a family business, but more were owned by

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wealthy individuals. self -styled sportsmen.

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There was money involved, but it was more of

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a hobby. Ownership changed from the smaller clubs

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frequently, but in this month's episode, we highlighted

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nine owners we felt shaped baseball into what

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it became, covering all eras of the sport. There's

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truly no limit to where these stories end for

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some of these owners, but we're going to do our

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best to try to bring you the why to the household

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names that you've known for so long. Today, here

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are the owners we're covering. I'm Dominic Cotroneo.

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And I'm Scott Sweeney. Let's learn about these

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nine men and the hundreds of owners across baseball

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history for episode three of the Service Time

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Podcast. Before we get started here, I just want

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to thank everybody for their support so far here

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in the podcast. This is only officially our third

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episode, four if you include the prologue episode,

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but so many people have already reached out,

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whether it be via social media, via email, via

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Substack, to thank us for doing this work. Now,

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I'll be honest. I'm going to pick up the slack

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on the Substack here coming up this month. We

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got an all -star break looming, a much more consistent

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schedule on the way. But now things start to

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get a little bit easier on the research front.

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We're going to have some great screenshots and

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articles in the Substack related to this episode.

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Again, you can find us Service Time Podcast on

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Substack. Also, make sure to tell your friends.

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I think we're really about to start hitting our

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stride here. If you ever have a question, thought,

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comment, concern, You can reach out to us at

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servicetimepod at gmail .com. All right. Thanks

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again for the support. I'll check in a little

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bit later. Now, let's learn about Connie Mack.

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I tell you, this was a difficult episode because

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whittling it down to nine is tough. The commissioner

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episode, that was easy. They were all chronological

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order. You never had two commissioners. All of

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these stories kind of overlap. So it's going

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to be a challenge, but I think we're up to it.

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to kind of go through these owners. To start

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out, we're going to go with the classic Connie

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Mack. Going way back, his history in baseball

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was long and near the beginning of baseball.

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So what's interesting about the owners, a lot

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of these guys, especially the ones we're going

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to cover later in the episode, come from money,

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come from power, come from somewhere where they're

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able to buy a baseball team. Connie Mack was

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a leather factory worker in the mid -1880s. that

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had played some baseball in college. And he kept

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trying to get tryouts with amateur teams, but

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no one was biting. And a common theme, you'll

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see this with another owner we'll talk later,

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is Mack had a friend named Will Hogan, who was

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a pitcher who did get signed with a team, who

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then said he wasn't satisfied with the catcher

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that was catching him. And he recommended, hey,

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let's sign this Connie Mack guy. And so that

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was Connie Mack's first job in baseball. He was

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a catcher in 1884 with Meriden in the Connecticut

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League. This is 1884. This is different baseball.

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Like some of the things that Connie Mack did

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that weren't done up to that day is he was one

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of the first catchers that stood up to the plate

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to catch the ball on a fly, catch a pitch on

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a fly. Catchers used to catch it on a bounce.

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And that was viewed as kind of odd. And another

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thing he'd do was what was called bat tipping.

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When a batter would swing, he would purposefully

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get his glove in the way. Now we know this is

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catcher's interference and it's a penalty, but

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it wasn't at the time. And again, this is the

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mid -1880s. There were also the conditions for

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baseball were not very good. Will Hogan, the

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pitcher that he followed to his first baseball

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team, died at the age of 23 of consumption. Dom,

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when's the last time you heard of someone dying

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of consumption? I know where they treated people,

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and that's Pinehurst, North Carolina. And that's

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what led to that golf resort getting built. Oh,

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wow. The day -to -day life of a ballplayer was

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kind of different. If you've ever read the book

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of Mice and Men, where you have these guys working

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every day. The end of the day, they go and spend

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their paychecks on booze. And the next day, the

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same thing happens. That's what most baseball

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players were doing in the 1880s. They were playing

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their game, getting their money at the end of

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the game, going out and spending it. being completely

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broke and then playing the next day. But Connie

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Mack was kind of an exception to this. He saw

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his co -players, his peers doing this, but he

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didn't. And he carried that philosophy into his

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days as a manager and as an owner, where he would

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even avoid signing or trading for some players

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that were known drinkers or partiers because

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he viewed it, hey, baseball should come first.

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And then remember, this is how. the American

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League sort of began with Ben Johnson wanting

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to clean up the game, seeing the chaos that he

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saw of the 80s and the 90s, and we're talking

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1800s, 80s, and 90s of fights and brawls and

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alcoholism and consumption like you're talking

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about. And Connie Mack's not the only owner we're

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going to talk about today that was a very devout,

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very reserved man. I mean, I think of Branch

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Rickey who refused to work on Sundays, refused

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to work on the Sabbath. So this is just a time

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of the era that... The reason why these owners

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that we know about today, we're finally doing

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something different as regards to the rest of

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the league, saying, oh, this is a party, this

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is meant to be just a layback, and yeah, we throw

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a ball hard and we hit a ball hard, whatever,

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let's go party after and go have our beverages

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and be the town's entertainment as we see fit.

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But Connie Mack, you know the phrase of journeyman

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catcher, guy who jumps from team to team? Connie

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Neck was a journeyman catcher jumping from league

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to league. This is back when really the two big

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leagues were the American Association and the

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National League. And if you weren't in those

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leagues, the league you're in had a pretty high

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chance of failing. And the Connecticut League

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he was in in 1884 failed at the end of 1884.

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So he signed with the Hartford Mets in 1885 and

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eventually got his big break signing with the

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National League. Washington Nationals in 1886.

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Like the worst team of all time, Washington Nationals?

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Yeah. But this is where he kind of came across

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someone we talked about in a earlier episode,

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Montgomery Ward, who put together the Brotherhood

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of Professional Baseball Players. And Connie

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Mack was an active participant with the Brotherhood

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of Professional Baseball Players. And when they

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created the Players League in 1890, Mack joined

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the league's Buffalo Bisons. So he left the National

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League and joined the Players League. Unfortunately,

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the Players League did not last very long and

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he had to go back to the National League. But

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in later in life, after he'd become an owner,

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managed players contracts and done all this,

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he said it altered his viewpoint somewhat. He

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said, and I quote, I was younger then and things

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look different to me. It seemed to me that we

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had a good cause and the brotherhood intended

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to correct some of the inequalities and abuses

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which then existed in baseball. No doubt today.

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Having some idea of the difficulties of operating

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a major league club, I would take a different

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view of such a movement. You remember my rant

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on Bud Selig in the last episode where I go,

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how can you go from being very, very pro, don't

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have a team, leave a city, to later being commissioner

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and almost taking the Minnesota Twins away from

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Minnesota? You'll find a lot of these people,

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their viewpoint mentality towards the union,

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towards players trying to negotiate for contracts,

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changes. as they are on the other end of those

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negotiations. For Connie Mack to go through as

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many minor leagues as he did, to then jump to

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the Players League for the one year that he did

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with the Brotherhood League, and then come back

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to the National League with no problem, right?

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Because the league folded on its own. You could

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really argue the reason... why we view catchers

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as great managers today. Connie Mack was the

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OG. Oh, he's caught a lot. He's been a lot of

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places. He's seen everything. He gets along with

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everybody. He could totally be a manager. And

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quite frankly, again, we talked about it briefly

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in episode one when Cornelius McGillicuddy, as

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he was still then known, he wasn't necessarily

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Connie Mack yet, but eventually... Already people

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were talking about in his time in Pittsburgh,

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like you're going to be a manager of these Pittsburgh

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Pirates one day. It wasn't long. He actually

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signed with the Pirates and he was a well -liked

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player known for his baseball mind, finding these

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little inefficiencies, finding these changes

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in the game. And the game was clearly changing

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quite a bit during this time. But after the Pirates

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had a down year in 1894, the team fired their

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manager and offered the job to Mack. Now. Mack

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took the job on the condition, and this is a

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quote from Mack, I want to run the club, handle

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the players my way, make the rules, and make

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all of the trades. If I can really be the manager

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and not have to do what someone else thinks.

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Now, this is a key point of managers in this

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day aren't like managers today, where they just

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manage the players day to day, put out the lineups,

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and do the tactical changes. They were essentially

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the GM of the team. They would do the trades.

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They would sign players. They would scout players.

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It was a job that had a lot of facets and a lot

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of roles to it. And although the Pirates owner

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agreed, yes, you have full control, didn't necessarily

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work out that way because people have egos, people

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have opinions. he ended up clashing with the

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owner over a few trades. There was a trade that

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the owner did, and Mack said, I had nothing to

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do with that. There was a trade that the owner

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wanted to do that Mack vetoed. And within just

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two years, Mack was fired. and was out on the

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Pittsburgh Pirates. So this is 1896. This is

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where we intersect again with Henry Killerly

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again, who we talked about sliding doors moment.

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Henry Killerly bringing baseball to Milwaukee

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back in 19, right before 1900, before the American

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League was born, trying to say, we can be an

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American League franchise. Killerly didn't see

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it through, but he brought Connie Mack along

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the way. And in fact, it even ties to Ban Johnson

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because the reason Killerly went after Mack is

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Ban Johnson had his pulse of the National League.

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And any discontent for some people that he possibly

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wanted to bring over to the Western League at

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this point, he kept an eye out for them. He was

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aware that Connie Mack was having issues with

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his owner. And he is actually the one that recommended

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to Henry Killaly to go out and sign Connie Mack

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as manager of the Milwaukee Brewers in 1896.

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And he gave Mack full control of the roster.

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Very different than Pittsburgh. Mack was given

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full run. And Mack even admitted. that he wasn't

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a very good manager in Pittsburgh. He was new

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at the job. He had a hard time controlling his

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players. And I think that two years of experience

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and two years of failure made it so he was able

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to come into the Milwaukee Brewers and be able

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to manage the way that he had to manage to keep

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his team under control and to perform well. You

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know, here in Milwaukee, it was only for four

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seasons, but what he learned... while being a

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player manager in the beginning of it, at the

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very end of his career, and then leading into,

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like you said, the eye for talent that Ben Johnson

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had to eventually try to pull somebody over to

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new franchises, and Philadelphia was keeping

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an eye on him, as we all know. But what became

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so contrasting to the rest of baseball at this

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time is Connie Mack's appearance, right? We've

00:12:36.669 --> 00:12:40.129
all seen the photos of him, suit, tie. Remember,

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this is the 1800s. This is normal streetwear

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attire. No one had done this. On the field. He's

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always holding a scorecard. He's giving signals.

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He was nicknamed the tall tactician, which is

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a perfect nickname for a man that's tall and

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slender. He's over six foot five and just looking

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like he's in charge. And he dressed like he was

00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:03.080
in charge because, well, he wouldn't relinquish

00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:05.039
power for really forever for the rest of his

00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:07.539
life. And linking this being with the Western

00:13:07.539 --> 00:13:10.190
League. which would eventually become the American

00:13:10.190 --> 00:13:12.830
League, seeing all the stories from this time

00:13:12.830 --> 00:13:15.409
of how the National League operated and how the

00:13:15.409 --> 00:13:17.990
Western League, soon to be American League, operated,

00:13:18.250 --> 00:13:21.850
Ban Johnson ran a tight ship for this league.

00:13:21.990 --> 00:13:25.470
And it wasn't like eight different teams. He

00:13:25.470 --> 00:13:28.470
viewed it as we're all together as one league.

00:13:28.590 --> 00:13:30.470
And the only way we're going to compete with

00:13:30.470 --> 00:13:32.490
the National League and eventually become a major

00:13:32.490 --> 00:13:35.029
league is if we all work together. Even to the

00:13:35.029 --> 00:13:39.259
point in 1900. The year 1900, when they renamed

00:13:39.259 --> 00:13:41.960
the American League, he asked Connie Mack to

00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:44.899
help set up a team in Cleveland, not to give

00:13:44.899 --> 00:13:48.799
up his his management role and ownership or his

00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:51.500
management role in Milwaukee, but go to Cleveland

00:13:51.500 --> 00:13:54.460
and sign players for them, make trades for them,

00:13:54.519 --> 00:13:57.279
bring everything together while still doing his

00:13:57.279 --> 00:13:58.860
role in Milwaukee. This is something that wouldn't

00:13:58.860 --> 00:14:01.480
be allowed today. You couldn't do BGM of multiple

00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:05.370
teams. But this is how. Ban Johnson thought was

00:14:05.370 --> 00:14:07.710
the best way to make this league a success. And

00:14:07.710 --> 00:14:11.350
Connie Mack went there, scouted out a stadium

00:14:11.350 --> 00:14:14.470
for them, set up a bunch of the financial backers.

00:14:14.590 --> 00:14:17.789
He basically, for about three months, was running

00:14:17.789 --> 00:14:20.210
the team in Cleveland. Again, while at the same

00:14:20.210 --> 00:14:21.889
time running the team in Milwaukee, and they're

00:14:21.889 --> 00:14:23.990
going to compete against each other. And then

00:14:23.990 --> 00:14:26.090
after he finished setting up Cleveland, he went

00:14:26.090 --> 00:14:28.610
back and for 1900 managed his team in Milwaukee.

00:14:28.830 --> 00:14:32.669
But Ban Johnson was impressed. And then his other

00:14:32.669 --> 00:14:35.440
tactic. that he thought that we need to do to

00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:37.779
compete with the National League is encroach

00:14:37.779 --> 00:14:40.899
on their territory. The cities that have National

00:14:40.899 --> 00:14:44.879
League teams, Chicago, Boston, and Philadelphia,

00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:48.019
we should set up a team there. Like, no slight

00:14:48.019 --> 00:14:52.039
to Milwaukee, but Philadelphia and Boston and

00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:54.940
Chicago is where the big baseball teams are.

00:14:55.100 --> 00:14:57.039
It's where the National League's biggest teams

00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:01.220
are. We need to put together a team in those

00:15:01.220 --> 00:15:04.250
cities. And he tasked... Connie Mack, hey, do

00:15:04.250 --> 00:15:06.350
you want to be the one to set up a team in Philadelphia?

00:15:06.809 --> 00:15:09.730
And Connie Mack accepted. And Connie Mack did

00:15:09.730 --> 00:15:11.509
the same thing that he did for the Cleveland

00:15:11.509 --> 00:15:14.049
team. He got financial backers. He scouted out

00:15:14.049 --> 00:15:16.649
places for stadiums. He built the entire roster.

00:15:17.309 --> 00:15:20.789
And that kind of is where the legend of Connie

00:15:20.789 --> 00:15:23.590
Mack begins because he became manager. He became

00:15:23.590 --> 00:15:25.830
part owner of this team as well. His first time

00:15:25.830 --> 00:15:28.830
actually owning part of a team. And he was manager

00:15:28.830 --> 00:15:32.639
owner for the next 50 years. five World Series

00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:35.639
championships, seven AL pennants. This started

00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:39.620
as a minority stake and a management role. Ben

00:15:39.620 --> 00:15:41.940
Johnson couldn't have imagined, A, the American

00:15:41.940 --> 00:15:44.179
League would take off the way it did, and B,

00:15:44.259 --> 00:15:47.019
that Connie Mack would stick around as long as

00:15:47.019 --> 00:15:50.600
he did to not only becoming majority owner and

00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:53.360
thus can't fire himself. The reason why Connie

00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:55.899
Mack's record is unbreakable for games managed,

00:15:56.059 --> 00:15:59.039
games won, he also has games lost as a manager

00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:02.600
too, is he was the man that, decided, are you

00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:04.639
hired or are you not? And Connie Mack got to

00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:07.240
have that longevity run. And Connie Mack also

00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:10.159
had a sense of humor, though, Scott. My favorite

00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:13.340
thing, my favorite little antidote about Connie

00:16:13.340 --> 00:16:18.039
Mack from the first World Series in 1903. Fun

00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:20.480
fact, Pittsburgh refused to play in the first

00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:22.080
World Series because of the acrimony between

00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:23.740
the National League. It would be the New York

00:16:23.740 --> 00:16:27.299
Giants against the A's, and it was nicknamed

00:16:27.299 --> 00:16:31.159
the White Elephant A's. which is where we have

00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:34.679
Stomper today. It all comes back to John McGraw,

00:16:34.820 --> 00:16:37.600
who was complaining about the A's as a white

00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.179
elephant. This is straight from Sabre. It was

00:16:40.179 --> 00:16:42.259
a term generally used to describe an ornate,

00:16:42.259 --> 00:16:45.679
impractical, and burdensome possession. Rather

00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:47.820
than consider it an insult, Mack immediately

00:16:47.820 --> 00:16:51.240
adopted the pachyderm as the team's symbol and

00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:53.620
attached a white elephant patch to the athletic

00:16:53.620 --> 00:16:58.340
uniforms from 1903 to 1928. And it's still there

00:16:58.340 --> 00:17:01.799
today. still there today and this is going to

00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:03.620
be kind of interesting this is going to seem

00:17:03.620 --> 00:17:06.299
kind of weird for me covering Connie Mack but

00:17:06.299 --> 00:17:09.099
you'd expect now I'd have a lot to talk about

00:17:09.099 --> 00:17:12.380
but he intentionally was an uncontroversial figure

00:17:12.380 --> 00:17:14.779
for his 50 years with the athletics that it's

00:17:14.779 --> 00:17:16.400
it's almost more interesting how he got into

00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:19.039
that role and the next 50 years everyone knows

00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:20.380
what happened you know that you got the five

00:17:20.380 --> 00:17:23.420
world series but there are were some ups and

00:17:23.420 --> 00:17:26.380
downs because he wasn't necessarily the greatest

00:17:26.380 --> 00:17:29.920
manager of finances And so whenever he had those

00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:32.119
World Series runs, you know, three World Series

00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:36.579
in the 1910s and two won and then won again in

00:17:36.579 --> 00:17:40.920
1929 and 1930 and made it in 1931 but lost. But

00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:44.460
every time he won, they kind of ran into financial

00:17:44.460 --> 00:17:46.619
difficulties. And he was described as being one

00:17:46.619 --> 00:17:48.259
of the best at being able to tear down a World

00:17:48.259 --> 00:17:50.539
Series team. You know, like Florida Marlins eat

00:17:50.539 --> 00:17:54.079
your heart out. Because after each World Series

00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:56.900
run, they would have another string of multiple

00:17:56.900 --> 00:18:00.980
100 -loss seasons. And when that happened in

00:18:00.980 --> 00:18:04.099
the late 1919s and 1920s, he was able to recover

00:18:04.099 --> 00:18:06.599
and get that later run, that second run later.

00:18:07.259 --> 00:18:11.059
But after his World Series loss in 1931, the

00:18:11.059 --> 00:18:13.420
team really didn't recover. And at this point,

00:18:13.460 --> 00:18:16.440
we're Connie Mack's in his late 70s, into his

00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:19.740
80s, into his 90s, and he continued to do a hands

00:18:19.740 --> 00:18:24.049
-on manager -GM -owner role. And the question

00:18:24.049 --> 00:18:26.910
was, did he kind of hang on a little too long?

00:18:27.230 --> 00:18:30.509
Because the downside is, through the 1940s, when

00:18:30.509 --> 00:18:32.990
the athletics were constantly losing 100 games,

00:18:33.430 --> 00:18:35.789
the Philadelphia Phillies, who had been a dreadful

00:18:35.789 --> 00:18:39.930
team through the 10s, 20s, and 30s, all of a

00:18:39.930 --> 00:18:41.509
sudden started winning games. They were called

00:18:41.509 --> 00:18:44.470
the Fightin' Phillies. And that was right around

00:18:44.470 --> 00:18:47.569
the time where there was a sea change in baseball

00:18:47.569 --> 00:18:50.250
where it's like, hey, these cities with two teams,

00:18:50.430 --> 00:18:52.349
we should move one of these teams to somewhere

00:18:52.349 --> 00:18:55.769
else. And just at that moment, the Phillies had

00:18:55.769 --> 00:19:00.230
taken the crown as the more attended, more financially

00:19:00.230 --> 00:19:03.470
viable, more viable on the field team. And unfortunately,

00:19:03.869 --> 00:19:06.549
maybe Connie Mack holding on to the team for

00:19:06.549 --> 00:19:08.150
that long is one of the reasons why they were

00:19:08.150 --> 00:19:10.569
eventually sold to Arnold Johnson and moved to

00:19:10.569 --> 00:19:14.029
Kansas City. Now, we don't know if he had resigned

00:19:14.029 --> 00:19:17.210
as manager in the mid 1930s. We don't know that

00:19:17.210 --> 00:19:20.069
it would have gone differently, but it didn't

00:19:20.069 --> 00:19:23.559
help. It didn't help. So that is. While Connie

00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:25.819
Mack is a legend, that is one of his criticisms.

00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:28.099
Maybe he did it a little too long. The game had

00:19:28.099 --> 00:19:30.319
changed. The game had passed him by. He wasn't

00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:33.279
as great at scouting anymore. Baseball had become

00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:36.619
much more of a business in that time. We hadn't

00:19:36.619 --> 00:19:38.660
hit free agency yet, so that wasn't a thing.

00:19:38.740 --> 00:19:43.140
But essentially, he managed till 1950. They ended

00:19:43.140 --> 00:19:46.880
up selling the team in 1954. One of his sons

00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:49.119
was involved and given a role with the Philadelphia

00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:51.380
Athletics, but it was a token role to try to

00:19:51.380 --> 00:19:54.410
get them to sell. And the entire Mack family

00:19:54.410 --> 00:19:56.730
was no longer associated with the athletics after

00:19:56.730 --> 00:20:00.210
1955, which is an unfortunate end to that dynasty.

00:20:00.859 --> 00:20:03.720
And for Mac and his and his legacy, you look

00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:06.539
at you mentioned how long he managed. I mean,

00:20:06.539 --> 00:20:08.759
he literally managed some of the best teams in

00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:11.819
the dead ball era before Babe Ruth arrived. And

00:20:11.819 --> 00:20:14.160
then Babe Ruth arrives in the roaring 20s. And

00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:16.359
he still managed to create a World Series team

00:20:16.359 --> 00:20:19.119
in the 30s. And we're talking like in the early

00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:21.920
days, we're talking Eddie Collins. We're talking

00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:24.680
home run Baker. And then in the 30s, we're talking

00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:26.700
double X, right? We're talking Jimmy Foxx. We're

00:20:26.700 --> 00:20:29.319
talking some of the legends of Philadelphia sports,

00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:33.599
Eddie Collins, Lefty Grove. And he found these

00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:37.019
guys pre -World War II and surviving the dead

00:20:37.019 --> 00:20:39.720
ball era and surviving Babe Ruth. And you got

00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:41.420
to remember, like, Babe Ruth's in the American

00:20:41.420 --> 00:20:43.220
League at the same time as the Philadelphia A's.

00:20:43.299 --> 00:20:45.099
And the A's were still winning World Series despite

00:20:45.099 --> 00:20:48.339
this. It was always the A's and the Yankees during

00:20:48.339 --> 00:20:51.099
this time. But then as the 40s come along, the

00:20:51.099 --> 00:20:53.589
difference was, well, Connie kept tearing it

00:20:53.589 --> 00:20:55.529
down, relying on building it back up, tearing

00:20:55.529 --> 00:20:56.950
it down, building it back up. But then finally,

00:20:56.970 --> 00:20:58.950
as you said, he wasn't able to build it back

00:20:58.950 --> 00:21:00.849
up after the 40s because the talent pool changed

00:21:00.849 --> 00:21:03.309
so much. The Yankees and some of these other

00:21:03.309 --> 00:21:06.329
mega powers had put their investment where they

00:21:06.329 --> 00:21:08.289
could down on the farm system, which is something

00:21:08.289 --> 00:21:11.130
Connie Mack never really did. Yeah, he never

00:21:11.130 --> 00:21:13.630
really did. But there's one team he left out

00:21:13.630 --> 00:21:17.269
there in the 1920s as far as competing, and that's

00:21:17.269 --> 00:21:20.309
the Chicago White Sox. But the reason is they

00:21:20.309 --> 00:21:22.210
didn't compete. I'm just kind of going to lead

00:21:22.210 --> 00:21:25.369
into our next owner here. Why didn't they compete

00:21:25.369 --> 00:21:28.390
in the 1920s? Well, let's talk about Charlie

00:21:28.390 --> 00:21:30.750
Comiskey. And the thing that he's most known

00:21:30.750 --> 00:21:33.849
for, much to his chagrin, is his ties to the

00:21:33.849 --> 00:21:36.970
1919 Black Sox, which we've talked multiple times.

00:21:37.089 --> 00:21:40.269
We talked on our last episode. But I have to

00:21:40.269 --> 00:21:42.710
tell you something. When we first, to give a

00:21:42.710 --> 00:21:45.240
little inside baseball to this podcast. Don,

00:21:45.299 --> 00:21:48.400
you've set out like a draft of like an outline.

00:21:48.539 --> 00:21:50.200
Here's what we want to cover on each episode.

00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:52.460
And the month leading up to that, we'll meet

00:21:52.460 --> 00:21:54.759
together and talk. OK, here's what we're going

00:21:54.759 --> 00:21:56.339
to talk about. Here's what we're going to research

00:21:56.339 --> 00:21:59.319
on. In our first episode, we covered the players

00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:02.380
trying to unionize other events that failed,

00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:06.400
court cases, things like that. But when we first

00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:08.500
did our first meeting, what did I tell you? I

00:22:08.500 --> 00:22:10.640
pitched you an idea of like, hey, we should open

00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:13.660
with this. Hey, let's show a vignette of how.

00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:16.859
Things were bad for the players. And let's look

00:22:16.859 --> 00:22:20.079
at the 1919 Black Sox. They were so underpaid

00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:22.640
by Charles Comiskey that they were disgruntled

00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:27.279
and needed to fix games in order to make up the

00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:30.440
money they weren't making. And you were like,

00:22:30.500 --> 00:22:32.099
oh, that's a great idea. So I was going to go

00:22:32.099 --> 00:22:34.599
and research on that. I came back the next week.

00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:36.799
And what was the first thing I said? Oh, I was

00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:39.279
totally wrong. Oh, yeah, I was totally wrong.

00:22:39.579 --> 00:22:42.660
That was something that was put in eight men

00:22:42.660 --> 00:22:46.150
out. that was then parroted over and over on

00:22:46.150 --> 00:22:49.549
all these different sources I've read. But in

00:22:49.549 --> 00:22:52.529
the last 30 years or so, people have been able

00:22:52.529 --> 00:22:54.349
to get a hold of the accounting books of the

00:22:54.349 --> 00:22:55.990
American League and the National League and the

00:22:55.990 --> 00:22:58.490
owners at this time. And the White Sox weren't

00:22:58.490 --> 00:23:00.990
underpaid relative to their peers. They were

00:23:00.990 --> 00:23:03.190
actually the highest paid team in the league.

00:23:03.329 --> 00:23:06.869
They had the highest payroll at $93 ,000. And

00:23:06.869 --> 00:23:09.750
there were 15 players in the league in 1919 who

00:23:09.750 --> 00:23:12.859
had salaries of $6 ,000 or more. Five of them

00:23:12.859 --> 00:23:15.839
were with the White Sox. So I had to scrap that.

00:23:16.019 --> 00:23:20.039
But the thing that I take away from that is we

00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:22.839
know Charles Comiskey basically for one thing.

00:23:23.059 --> 00:23:26.920
And that is his ties to the 1919 Black Sox. And

00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:30.240
he has been painted as the villain of that episode

00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:33.680
for a very long time. So for this episode, I'm

00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:35.319
going to go back before that. How did he get

00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:38.839
started in baseball? Much like Connie Mack, who

00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:43.440
was working at a factory. Charles Comiskey was

00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:47.880
a plumber's apprentice in 1875. And much like

00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:50.839
Connie Mack, he had a college friend who was

00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:53.140
playing baseball for a team and decided to recruit

00:23:53.140 --> 00:23:58.279
Charles Comiskey to play Milwaukee in 1876. And

00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:00.359
then over the next six years, he continued to

00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:03.019
play on amateur teams across the Midwest in Chicago,

00:24:03.380 --> 00:24:06.609
Elgin, Dubuque, and eventually... As I said,

00:24:06.609 --> 00:24:08.109
you try to get to the National League or the

00:24:08.109 --> 00:24:10.230
American Association. He eventually signed with

00:24:10.230 --> 00:24:12.410
the American Association St. Louis Browns in

00:24:12.410 --> 00:24:15.289
1882. Remember, I was saying that getting to

00:24:15.289 --> 00:24:17.369
the American Association or the National League

00:24:17.369 --> 00:24:19.970
was the goal at this time. All those other leagues

00:24:19.970 --> 00:24:22.450
and teams tend to not last very long because

00:24:22.450 --> 00:24:25.230
the financials just weren't very good. And again,

00:24:25.390 --> 00:24:28.029
the only reason he made the St. Louis Browns

00:24:28.029 --> 00:24:29.950
is his friend Ted Sullivan that he had followed

00:24:29.950 --> 00:24:33.549
to his first amateur team. had also signed with

00:24:33.549 --> 00:24:35.630
the Browns and recommended they sign Charles

00:24:35.630 --> 00:24:38.230
Comiskey. So it's, again, it's not, in this time,

00:24:38.349 --> 00:24:40.650
baseball's a small knit community. It's almost

00:24:40.650 --> 00:24:43.609
who you know, not how well you play for a lot

00:24:43.609 --> 00:24:46.670
of these players. And it also brings us to Ban

00:24:46.670 --> 00:24:49.509
Johnson later in the 1890s, where, remember,

00:24:49.569 --> 00:24:52.789
we talked about it, 10 -minute clubs, as we joked

00:24:52.789 --> 00:24:54.950
about those back in episode one. Do you still

00:24:54.950 --> 00:24:57.809
remember what a 10 -minute club is? Yeah. Oh,

00:24:57.849 --> 00:25:01.599
God. Refresh my memory. 10 -minute club is when

00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:03.259
you go into a club for 10 minutes and get as

00:25:03.259 --> 00:25:05.279
drunk as possible and talk business. It was for

00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:07.339
the wealthy and for the elite to try to figure

00:25:07.339 --> 00:25:09.339
out who could work with who. And that's where

00:25:09.339 --> 00:25:11.460
Charles Comiskey and Ben Johnson met each other

00:25:11.460 --> 00:25:13.640
in Cincinnati to say, hey, I'm starting the American

00:25:13.640 --> 00:25:17.559
League. You want in, kid? Also, just like this

00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:21.740
is a similar story to Connie Mack, whose manager

00:25:21.740 --> 00:25:23.599
that brought him in had a falling out with the

00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:25.579
owner after two years, and then he took over.

00:25:26.089 --> 00:25:28.009
Well, Ted Sullivan had a falling out with the

00:25:28.009 --> 00:25:31.150
Browns owner in 1883, and Comiskey stepped in

00:25:31.150 --> 00:25:33.549
as the player manager for the Browns. Although

00:25:33.549 --> 00:25:37.390
unlike Mack, who had a rough time as the player

00:25:37.390 --> 00:25:41.309
manager for Pittsburgh, Charles Comiskey found

00:25:41.309 --> 00:25:44.190
immediate success with the Browns. They won four

00:25:44.190 --> 00:25:46.289
straight American Association championships.

00:25:46.609 --> 00:25:49.250
And after the American Association folded in

00:25:49.250 --> 00:25:52.170
1890, Comiskey briefly played for the Chicago

00:25:52.170 --> 00:25:55.039
White Stockings for the Players League. Again,

00:25:55.220 --> 00:25:57.920
it's almost funny when I was researching for

00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:00.019
Connie Mack and then researching Charles Comiskey,

00:26:00.099 --> 00:26:02.799
how much their backgrounds up to this point just

00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:05.839
linked, almost looked the exact same. Go play

00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:08.019
for the Players League, you know, in the middle

00:26:08.019 --> 00:26:10.160
of this. And when the Players League folded,

00:26:10.220 --> 00:26:12.519
he went and signed with the Cincinnati Reds of

00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:15.220
the National League. And you know who worked

00:26:15.220 --> 00:26:18.920
at the newspaper in Cincinnati as a sports editor?

00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:22.680
Ben Johnson. Van Johnson came into contact with

00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:25.759
Van Johnson. And it was actually Comiskey had

00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:28.579
to stop playing because he had a scare with tuberculosis.

00:26:28.940 --> 00:26:31.740
It was very vague when I was studying this. He

00:26:31.740 --> 00:26:34.480
didn't have tuberculosis. He was at high risk.

00:26:34.740 --> 00:26:37.079
And the doctor recommended, hey, you should you

00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:39.819
should stop playing baseball. And if possible,

00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:43.000
you should go live down down south where the

00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:45.099
temperatures are warmer and there's more humidity

00:26:45.099 --> 00:26:47.740
because that's easier on your lungs. So he went

00:26:47.740 --> 00:26:49.599
down south and he saw a bunch of these upstart

00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:52.160
leagues and eventually made his way back to Cincinnati.

00:26:52.259 --> 00:26:54.640
And he tells Van Johnson, hey, you know what?

00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:57.119
We should start a league and actually try to

00:26:57.119 --> 00:26:59.579
compete with the Western League. Yeah, Van Johnson

00:26:59.579 --> 00:27:01.859
is the one who eventually did the Western League.

00:27:02.019 --> 00:27:04.779
But it was actually Charles Comiskey put a little

00:27:04.779 --> 00:27:07.279
little bug in his ear of like, hey, I saw these

00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:08.900
leagues starting up. You know, maybe we should

00:27:08.900 --> 00:27:11.599
try something the same. So then when Van Johnson

00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:14.269
started the Western League. One of the first

00:27:14.269 --> 00:27:18.210
people he brought in to be owners was Charles

00:27:18.210 --> 00:27:20.710
Comiskey, who bought the Sioux City Cornhuskers,

00:27:20.890 --> 00:27:23.450
moved them to St. Paul, and renamed them the

00:27:23.450 --> 00:27:26.109
Saints. And when the Western League rebranded

00:27:26.109 --> 00:27:28.549
to the American League in 1900 and declared their

00:27:28.549 --> 00:27:31.190
intention to no longer be a minor league, that

00:27:31.190 --> 00:27:33.529
the National League could push around, one of

00:27:33.529 --> 00:27:35.549
Van Johnson's goals, remember I said this before,

00:27:35.769 --> 00:27:39.130
teams in Philadelphia, team in Boston, team in

00:27:39.130 --> 00:27:42.079
Chicago. Chicago was the headquarters of the

00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:44.079
National League. It would be the biggest middle

00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:45.859
finger to the National League in saying, hey,

00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:48.380
we mean business. We mean war with you guys.

00:27:48.619 --> 00:27:51.779
If they were able to get a team in Chicago. And

00:27:51.779 --> 00:27:54.839
he said, Charles Comiskey is my man. Let's get

00:27:54.839 --> 00:27:58.359
him to get a team in Chicago. And he named them

00:27:58.359 --> 00:28:00.180
the White Stockings, which was a throwback to

00:28:00.180 --> 00:28:02.400
the American Association team that was managed

00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:06.240
by Al Spalding. Interesting story. I said that

00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:08.880
he didn't join the American Association as a

00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:12.259
player until 1882. He was trying out for teams

00:28:12.259 --> 00:28:15.660
in the late 1870s, and one of those was the Chicago

00:28:15.660 --> 00:28:18.200
White Sockings, and Al Spaulding said, no thanks.

00:28:18.460 --> 00:28:21.539
Thanks, no thanks. I actually saw in a few sources

00:28:21.539 --> 00:28:23.079
that they were saying him calling it the White

00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:25.000
Stockings and then shortening it to the White

00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:27.119
Socks was, again, kind of a middle finger to

00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:29.160
Al Spaulding. I'm going to take your name and

00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:31.420
change it. a little bit. And a reminder about

00:28:31.420 --> 00:28:34.059
Spalding, Spalding's whole empire was based in

00:28:34.059 --> 00:28:37.839
Chicago. He was seen, he was Spalding. Kind of

00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:39.279
was a legend in his own mind. Granted, he was

00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:41.519
a legend, but a legend in his own mind locally

00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:44.579
in Chicago saying, I'm the sporting goods emperor

00:28:44.579 --> 00:28:47.599
of this whole area. I should be the man in charge

00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:49.440
of any sort of baseball team coming here. Because

00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:51.359
the Cubs had just arrived. They're over on the

00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:53.700
west side of Chicago. And now somebody's coming

00:28:53.700 --> 00:28:55.799
to the south side of Chicago thinking, well,

00:28:55.859 --> 00:28:57.440
why is it not Albert Spalding? Who's this guy,

00:28:57.519 --> 00:28:59.460
Comiskey? And it's all because he had the blessing

00:28:59.460 --> 00:29:02.599
of Ben Johnson. Another tie to that, Comiskey,

00:29:02.599 --> 00:29:04.180
St. Louis Browns of the American Association.

00:29:04.970 --> 00:29:07.930
One of their pennants was defeating the Chicago

00:29:07.930 --> 00:29:12.049
White Stockings back in 1886. So he had some

00:29:12.049 --> 00:29:15.269
history with the name. And Chicago also had some

00:29:15.269 --> 00:29:16.470
history with the name. But with the American

00:29:16.470 --> 00:29:19.369
Association folding, the name was up for grabs.

00:29:19.549 --> 00:29:22.049
So he went and named his team the Chicago White

00:29:22.049 --> 00:29:24.690
Stockings. It's kind of weird. I looked back

00:29:24.690 --> 00:29:27.769
in newspapers when they were called the White

00:29:27.769 --> 00:29:31.599
Stockings versus the White Sox. I could go on

00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:33.619
a whole tangent of what teams names were back

00:29:33.619 --> 00:29:35.000
then, because it was just kind of whatever the

00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:37.759
press called them. So in 1901, most of the press

00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:39.700
called them the White Stockings for a year. And

00:29:39.700 --> 00:29:41.619
then over time, they eventually just evolved

00:29:41.619 --> 00:29:44.079
into the White Sox. And then it becomes this

00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:46.460
weird thing where then they'll officially change

00:29:46.460 --> 00:29:48.400
their name to the White Sox. And then on baseball

00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:49.859
reference, they'll say, oh, they were the White

00:29:49.859 --> 00:29:54.039
Sox in 1901, which. Really, they weren't. It's

00:29:54.039 --> 00:29:56.420
kind of like the modern day where we talk about

00:29:56.420 --> 00:29:58.359
the Washington Nationals, but in shorthand, we

00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:00.619
call them the Nats, right? Or you think about

00:30:00.619 --> 00:30:06.480
sometimes in baseball history of shortening for

00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:09.400
the sake of box scores and thinning it to print

00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:12.619
in newspapers. Socks is easier to write than

00:30:12.619 --> 00:30:16.359
stockings. And it just stuck. And now, you know,

00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:18.059
100 years later, we're thinking, why is there

00:30:18.059 --> 00:30:20.680
an X in socks? How do we pluralize this? What

00:30:20.680 --> 00:30:22.900
do we do? Hey, just thank the guys in the early

00:30:22.900 --> 00:30:25.339
1900s for why we're here today. Well, an interesting

00:30:25.339 --> 00:30:27.700
thing on the Nationals as well, because I got

00:30:27.700 --> 00:30:30.259
a little feedback and negative feedback from

00:30:30.259 --> 00:30:33.000
one of my videos because I was describing the

00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:36.809
Washington Nationals. in the 1950s. And everyone

00:30:36.809 --> 00:30:39.289
goes, no, it's the Senators. Their name actually

00:30:39.289 --> 00:30:41.910
officially was the Washington Nationals. Reporters

00:30:41.910 --> 00:30:43.950
just called them the Senators. So it was just

00:30:43.950 --> 00:30:46.309
like, well, technically they're both right. But

00:30:46.309 --> 00:30:49.130
it's just this weird thing. Teams had, the Philadelphia

00:30:49.130 --> 00:30:51.849
Phillies in the 1940s were also called the Blue

00:30:51.849 --> 00:30:55.509
Jays. Like that's a weird one. And it's very

00:30:55.509 --> 00:30:57.650
confusing when you're doing research and you

00:30:57.650 --> 00:30:59.809
go find an article talking about the Phillies.

00:31:00.250 --> 00:31:02.950
And the Sporting News in the 1940s, the things

00:31:02.950 --> 00:31:05.009
the writers wanted to do was spruce up their

00:31:05.009 --> 00:31:08.190
article. So they would refer to each team by

00:31:08.190 --> 00:31:10.829
a different name each paragraph. So I'd be reading

00:31:10.829 --> 00:31:12.569
an article and say, the Phillies manager, blah,

00:31:12.670 --> 00:31:14.849
blah, blah, does this, this, and this. Next paragraph,

00:31:15.089 --> 00:31:16.990
the Blue Jays, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like,

00:31:17.009 --> 00:31:19.009
are they talking about a different team? No,

00:31:19.170 --> 00:31:21.869
it would just be the same team every time. So

00:31:21.869 --> 00:31:24.170
the Nationals, Nats, Senators, you would find

00:31:24.170 --> 00:31:27.450
articles that would use all three. And it's funny

00:31:27.450 --> 00:31:29.859
you mention that. because one of the books I've

00:31:29.859 --> 00:31:31.720
used for research, and we'll have a full book

00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:33.660
list at the end of this whole podcast, but The

00:31:33.660 --> 00:31:36.220
Lords of Baseball, not Lords of the Realm, The

00:31:36.220 --> 00:31:38.779
Lords of Baseball by Harold Parrott, who was

00:31:38.779 --> 00:31:41.819
a sporting news columnist. He wrote for dozens

00:31:41.819 --> 00:31:44.619
and dozens of years around baseball. He writes

00:31:44.619 --> 00:31:46.859
like an old -timey sports writer in this book

00:31:46.859 --> 00:31:50.160
about the stories of Walter O'Malley and Branch

00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:52.869
Rickey and Mack, and it's just like... It's kind

00:31:52.869 --> 00:31:55.670
of hard to read, you know, 100 years later of

00:31:55.670 --> 00:31:58.569
like, wait, what? Everyone has a nickname. You

00:31:58.569 --> 00:32:00.430
have to follow along. I'm rereading pages. It's

00:32:00.430 --> 00:32:02.390
almost a different language, too. It truly is.

00:32:02.410 --> 00:32:05.190
It's like old English, almost. And Comiskey dealing

00:32:05.190 --> 00:32:06.890
with all this. You know what? They're the Sox.

00:32:06.990 --> 00:32:08.890
Deal with it, Albert Spalding. That's how we

00:32:08.890 --> 00:32:13.650
got on this tangent. Sorry. Yeah. But Comiskey

00:32:13.650 --> 00:32:16.930
coming into Chicago, having the white stockings,

00:32:16.930 --> 00:32:20.609
same city as the National League Chicago team.

00:32:21.230 --> 00:32:24.250
I can't even recall what their name was at this.

00:32:24.289 --> 00:32:25.890
I think they were the Orphans at this time, not

00:32:25.890 --> 00:32:29.289
the Cubs yet. Again, we're getting into names.

00:32:29.450 --> 00:32:32.789
They were very vague at the time. But again,

00:32:33.470 --> 00:32:35.410
it seemed like a war. They were going to war

00:32:35.410 --> 00:32:39.640
with the National League. But in being in Chicago

00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:41.980
at the headquarters of the National League, Comiskey

00:32:41.980 --> 00:32:45.119
also played a role in the peace talks. And eventually

00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:48.099
he was one of the original signers of the baseball

00:32:48.099 --> 00:32:50.819
constitution, or what we call the national agreement,

00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:54.380
in 1903 that made peace between the two leagues.

00:32:54.740 --> 00:32:57.160
When I look at Comiskey, one of the biggest pieces

00:32:57.160 --> 00:33:00.480
of his legacy, aside obviously from 1919, is

00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:03.500
building a ballpark. Building a baseball -specific

00:33:03.500 --> 00:33:08.160
ballpark in the 1900s. We'll get into this in

00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:10.440
the business and the boom of the 80s and the

00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:13.220
90s of baseball kind of going through a wave

00:33:13.220 --> 00:33:15.980
of, okay, in the early 1900s, there's this wave

00:33:15.980 --> 00:33:20.420
of baseball -specific stadiums being built. Comiskey

00:33:20.420 --> 00:33:22.819
was the first one of those. It was the largest

00:33:22.819 --> 00:33:25.859
at the time. It had a double deck. It was state

00:33:25.859 --> 00:33:28.339
-of -the -art at the time. Then the Yankee Stadium

00:33:28.339 --> 00:33:31.559
comes around and copies kind of the style that,

00:33:31.660 --> 00:33:33.680
okay, we can make this big and grand and make

00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:36.579
it the greatest stadium in the land. You go further

00:33:36.579 --> 00:33:39.240
along. You go away from these small parks like

00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:41.539
Wrigley Field, like Fenway Park. And you get

00:33:41.539 --> 00:33:43.720
to these grand stadiums. You get Tiger Stadium

00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:48.359
in Detroit. You get these specific just cathedrals

00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:50.900
of ginormous ballparks. Ebbets Field in Brooklyn.

00:33:51.140 --> 00:33:54.000
Polo Grounds was multi -purpose. But trying to

00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:56.160
get as many people as possible in in the 20s

00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:58.140
and 30s as the game's popularity is soaring.

00:33:58.259 --> 00:34:00.849
And then for some reason... We got away from

00:34:00.849 --> 00:34:04.150
that in the 60s and 70s for these multi -purpose.

00:34:04.250 --> 00:34:05.470
And again, we'll talk about this in the business

00:34:05.470 --> 00:34:08.730
episode where owners work together to say, hey,

00:34:08.769 --> 00:34:12.989
if you subsidize us to build us a new. we can

00:34:12.989 --> 00:34:15.409
share it with the Cincinnati Bengals for the

00:34:15.409 --> 00:34:17.349
Reds, right? Leaving Sportsman Park. Like, hey,

00:34:17.409 --> 00:34:20.210
let's make a dual riverfront stadium here. Or

00:34:20.210 --> 00:34:22.309
the Pirates. Or the list goes on of all these

00:34:22.309 --> 00:34:25.929
ugly cathedrals of dual -purpose stadiums that

00:34:25.929 --> 00:34:28.070
we left. Comiskey was the first one to say, no,

00:34:28.090 --> 00:34:30.710
let's make it just for the White Sox. I don't

00:34:30.710 --> 00:34:32.550
even know. Has there been a dual -use stadium

00:34:32.550 --> 00:34:35.030
built in the last 40 years? I mean, not just

00:34:35.030 --> 00:34:37.309
for baseball and football. The Coliseum was the

00:34:37.309 --> 00:34:40.530
last one to exist until two seasons ago. Wow,

00:34:40.650 --> 00:34:43.969
that's crazy. Well, you get Comiskey taking over

00:34:43.969 --> 00:34:48.070
the White Sox and he would be the owner of the

00:34:48.070 --> 00:34:50.750
White Sox for the rest of his life until his

00:34:50.750 --> 00:34:53.869
death in 1931. And they saw some ups and they

00:34:53.869 --> 00:34:55.730
saw some downs. They won the World Series in

00:34:55.730 --> 00:34:59.849
1906 and they won the World Series in 1917. And

00:34:59.849 --> 00:35:02.510
an interesting note, I talked about Connie Mack's

00:35:02.510 --> 00:35:05.590
opinions changing once he was an owner and had

00:35:05.590 --> 00:35:08.179
to manage contracts. even though he was a member

00:35:08.179 --> 00:35:10.840
of the Brotherhood of Professional Baseball Players,

00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:13.559
was in the Players League. Charles Comiskey was

00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:16.239
also in the Players League, but he still had

00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:19.039
some of his spats with players. I said he did

00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:22.880
eventually pay his players fairly, but he did

00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:25.780
not like negotiating, especially when the player

00:35:25.780 --> 00:35:28.019
took it to the press. And one example would be

00:35:28.019 --> 00:35:30.820
in 1909, Ed Walsh, Hall of Fame pitcher, star

00:35:30.820 --> 00:35:32.980
pitcher for the Sox at the time, was holding

00:35:32.980 --> 00:35:35.480
out for more salary and leaked some things to

00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:37.989
the press. And Charles Comiskey wasn't happening.

00:35:38.090 --> 00:35:40.349
He said, we will win the pennant without Walsh

00:35:40.349 --> 00:35:43.269
if necessary. I have not written Walsh and will

00:35:43.269 --> 00:35:46.070
open no communication with him as I'm through

00:35:46.070 --> 00:35:48.530
with him. We had a splendid string of pitchers

00:35:48.530 --> 00:35:50.550
and Walsh's return would make it harder to choose

00:35:50.550 --> 00:35:53.050
among them. Walsh has been treated pretty well

00:35:53.050 --> 00:35:55.469
by the White Sox, but he has forgotten the years

00:35:55.469 --> 00:35:58.150
we carried him along the payroll at a comfortable

00:35:58.150 --> 00:36:00.849
salary just to sit on the bench and learn how

00:36:00.849 --> 00:36:02.909
to pitch when everyone else thought it was a

00:36:02.909 --> 00:36:07.099
joke to carry him. He ended up winning. Walsh

00:36:07.099 --> 00:36:09.539
ended up folding, ending his holdout and signing

00:36:09.539 --> 00:36:11.280
with Comiskey. But it's just one of those things

00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:14.519
of like, don't push me too far or I'm going to

00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:16.539
be like, I'm going to talk bad about you back

00:36:16.539 --> 00:36:18.320
if you talk bad about me and try to bring the

00:36:18.320 --> 00:36:20.639
negotiations into the public. And Ed Walsh was

00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:22.800
the best pitcher of the era. I mean, this is,

00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:25.539
this is Walter Johnson level fame, hall of famer,

00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:28.519
back -to -back runner up and MVP only lost to

00:36:28.519 --> 00:36:29.980
position players. Cause at the time there was

00:36:29.980 --> 00:36:33.039
no Cy Young award and, you know, losing to Ty

00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:35.539
Cobb and to Tris Speaker, no one would bat an

00:36:35.539 --> 00:36:37.920
eye. But if there was a Cy Young award, Ed Walsh

00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:40.260
would have won it during these years. And yeah.

00:36:40.340 --> 00:36:42.599
And another contract issue he had, do you know

00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:45.539
the name Hal Chase? I don't tell me more. Oh,

00:36:45.659 --> 00:36:47.760
this is actually, this is one of those things

00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:50.179
where I stumbled on this story and I went, Oh,

00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:53.079
there's more to this. So Hal Chase was at the

00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:57.460
White Sox in 1914. 1915, we've talked about this

00:36:57.460 --> 00:36:59.679
before. We had the Federal League for one year.

00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:02.940
Hal Chase was one of the defectors. He went to

00:37:02.940 --> 00:37:05.039
the Federal League. Him and the White Sox got

00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:07.000
in some court cases where the White Sox were

00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:09.400
suing. Then he countered sued, basically saying,

00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:11.639
you can't go to the Federal League. We have the

00:37:11.639 --> 00:37:14.800
reserve clause. And interestingly, Hal Chase

00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:19.429
won this. It was before the 1922 ruling. and

00:37:19.429 --> 00:37:21.789
it was before the other rulings on the federal

00:37:21.789 --> 00:37:24.949
league how chase won his ability to play in the

00:37:24.949 --> 00:37:27.889
federal league but the problem is federal league

00:37:27.889 --> 00:37:30.710
folded after 1915 and he was blacklisted from

00:37:30.710 --> 00:37:33.269
playing in the american league after the federal

00:37:33.269 --> 00:37:35.750
league folded had to sign with the national league

00:37:35.750 --> 00:37:38.389
but here's where the story gets really interesting

00:37:38.389 --> 00:37:41.590
so when he signed with the national league his

00:37:41.590 --> 00:37:44.110
manager was christy matthewson another hall of

00:37:44.110 --> 00:37:47.000
fame pitcher who suspended him multiple times

00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:50.159
for bribing players on both teams trying to fix

00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:53.079
matches. He tried, he posed, he bribed his own

00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:55.679
players to either play worse. He bribed players

00:37:55.679 --> 00:37:58.739
on the other teams for them to play worse so

00:37:58.739 --> 00:38:02.280
he could bet on his team. And he constantly was

00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:05.280
getting suspended. The league stepped in, did

00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:07.800
an investigation and cleared him. Said, no, no,

00:38:07.820 --> 00:38:09.519
he can keep playing, which is really, really

00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:12.619
weird. Then when the White Sox scandal, the Black

00:38:12.619 --> 00:38:15.480
Sox scandal happened. He was one of the guys

00:38:15.480 --> 00:38:17.699
brought up on charges as being one of the middlemen

00:38:17.699 --> 00:38:21.820
who was bringing this opportunity to gamble on

00:38:21.820 --> 00:38:24.179
the games to the White Sox players. Now, when

00:38:24.179 --> 00:38:26.679
they looked into that, his involvement, I think,

00:38:26.679 --> 00:38:30.000
is a lot less than what people are saying. But

00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:32.760
Hal Chase, this guy that had a court case against

00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:35.099
Charles Comiskey, is one of the guys that was

00:38:35.099 --> 00:38:40.239
indicted for match fixing, for game fixing. I

00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:43.320
think what it ended up being is he was more aware.

00:38:44.030 --> 00:38:47.769
of what was going on and made bets himself and

00:38:47.769 --> 00:38:51.190
ended up making like $60 ,000, they said, off

00:38:51.190 --> 00:38:54.849
of the World Series. But he eventually was acquitted

00:38:54.849 --> 00:38:57.349
as well. But at this point, he was now blacklisted

00:38:57.349 --> 00:38:59.489
from the National League as well. Blacklisted

00:38:59.489 --> 00:39:01.010
from the American League, blacklisted from the

00:39:01.010 --> 00:39:03.730
National League. And looking up sources about

00:39:03.730 --> 00:39:08.570
how Chase, it's interesting. Because he had that

00:39:08.570 --> 00:39:12.550
court standoff with Charles Comiskey. There's

00:39:12.550 --> 00:39:15.610
a lot of speculation of, hey, were all these

00:39:15.610 --> 00:39:18.210
other things that happened later, like kind of

00:39:18.210 --> 00:39:21.469
he wasn't guilty, but it was petty getting back

00:39:21.469 --> 00:39:24.030
at him? Or is he the most corrupt player we've

00:39:24.030 --> 00:39:26.530
ever had in baseball history? Like some websites

00:39:26.530 --> 00:39:29.489
would say he's the greatest early player advocate

00:39:29.489 --> 00:39:33.570
and a guy that was a pioneer for players' rights.

00:39:33.710 --> 00:39:35.610
And then you read another article. I think the

00:39:35.610 --> 00:39:37.630
Sabre article opens with the most corrupt player

00:39:37.630 --> 00:39:40.710
in baseball. So it's interesting. But the fact

00:39:40.710 --> 00:39:43.400
that it ties. Back to Charles Comiskey. The low

00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:46.519
point of Charles Comiskey's career, the 1919

00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:50.079
Black Sox, just kind of cracked me up of like,

00:39:50.139 --> 00:39:52.900
this is a small world. Baseball is a small world

00:39:52.900 --> 00:39:55.739
during this time. It still is a small world to

00:39:55.739 --> 00:40:00.420
today. And I think the 1919 Black Sox, we talked

00:40:00.420 --> 00:40:01.579
about, like I said, we talked about it plenty

00:40:01.579 --> 00:40:03.739
in the Commissioner episode. If you want to listen

00:40:03.739 --> 00:40:06.280
to us talk about that. But truly, Comiskey was

00:40:06.280 --> 00:40:08.199
caught in between a rock and a hard place where

00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:11.619
both he and Ben Johnson. knew the games were

00:40:11.619 --> 00:40:15.360
being fixed before the games began, and still

00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:17.900
did nothing about it. I think that's the ultimate

00:40:17.900 --> 00:40:22.440
legacy on all this, where Comiskey had the opportunity

00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:24.900
to try to put his quash to it, but his team's

00:40:24.900 --> 00:40:26.500
back in the World Series. What if it's wrong?

00:40:26.679 --> 00:40:29.400
What if this becomes a whole spat? Van Johnson

00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:31.460
knew, and he did not order Comiskey to do anything

00:40:31.460 --> 00:40:33.760
about it. There are multiple levels of failures

00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:37.659
that led to the 1919 Black Sox. Well, here's

00:40:37.659 --> 00:40:39.179
the interesting thing. Going into the research,

00:40:39.800 --> 00:40:42.659
Did he know? Like, it's actually a little uncertain

00:40:42.659 --> 00:40:47.480
if he actually did know. I mean, Shoeless Joe

00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:50.000
Jackson testified that he went to Charles Comiskey

00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:52.880
after game seven to turn in the money and say,

00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:56.260
hey, they told us to fix the games, which also

00:40:56.260 --> 00:40:59.380
didn't follow his previous testimony. All of

00:40:59.380 --> 00:41:02.480
these testimonies are all all over the place.

00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:05.639
And it's really tough to tell. When did Comiskey

00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:09.079
first find out? Did he find out during the series,

00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:11.099
before the series, after? It's a little unknown.

00:41:11.219 --> 00:41:14.219
Same with Van Johnson. But the biggest thing

00:41:14.219 --> 00:41:18.360
was it didn't matter. This ruined Charles Comiskey's

00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:21.039
reputation. It ruined his team. After the 1920

00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:24.199
season when all these players were banned for

00:41:24.199 --> 00:41:27.280
life, the White Sox were terrible for the rest

00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:29.300
of his life. They never finished above fifth

00:41:29.300 --> 00:41:33.139
place until his death in 1931. And even Van Johnson,

00:41:33.219 --> 00:41:35.519
his friend, the guy that brought him in to the

00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:38.860
Western League, They're basically founding members

00:41:38.860 --> 00:41:43.639
of the American League turned on Charles Comiskey.

00:41:43.940 --> 00:41:48.940
When Commissioner Landis came in and started

00:41:48.940 --> 00:41:51.880
cleaning up the game and making sure people weren't

00:41:51.880 --> 00:41:54.900
involved in gambling and gamblers weren't involved,

00:41:55.179 --> 00:41:58.900
there were a lot of individual cases where players

00:41:58.900 --> 00:42:01.860
were accused of one thing or another. And one

00:42:01.860 --> 00:42:04.500
of that things, one that happened in the mid

00:42:04.500 --> 00:42:08.099
1920s with the White Sox. And when Charles Comiskey

00:42:08.099 --> 00:42:11.920
tried to pitch in his opinion, Van Johnson said,

00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:15.099
if any man ever talked out of turn when question

00:42:15.099 --> 00:42:18.179
of baseball integrity, sorry, if any man ever

00:42:18.179 --> 00:42:20.119
talked out of turn when the question of baseball

00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:22.940
integrity was involved, then Comiskey is the

00:42:22.940 --> 00:42:26.940
man. Mr. Comiskey, in my opinion, is an incompetent

00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:29.179
witness when it comes to any sort of testimony

00:42:29.179 --> 00:42:32.210
or statement. regarding the stand to be taken

00:42:32.210 --> 00:42:34.949
when the safety of the national game is at stake.

00:42:36.110 --> 00:42:39.130
He plainly holds the dollar paramount to the

00:42:39.130 --> 00:42:41.550
integrity of baseball. And remember, these were

00:42:41.550 --> 00:42:44.010
business partners for years that were pioneers

00:42:44.010 --> 00:42:46.869
of this league. And because of the White Sox,

00:42:46.869 --> 00:42:49.829
because of the Black Sox scandal, basically had

00:42:49.829 --> 00:42:52.750
a falling out. Reputation for Comiskey is done.

00:42:52.909 --> 00:42:56.150
And it was kind of a sad, sad ending to his tale.

00:42:56.559 --> 00:42:59.760
Where from 1921 to 1931, he was constantly having

00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:02.760
health problems. His team was terrible. Nobody

00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:07.300
trusted him anymore. And that's really the end

00:43:07.300 --> 00:43:09.380
of the Charles Comiskey story. Yeah, it's sad.

00:43:09.460 --> 00:43:13.039
He dies in 1931. We talk about the curse of the

00:43:13.039 --> 00:43:15.059
Bambino because it was a more famous curse for

00:43:15.059 --> 00:43:17.360
some reason. The curse of the 1919 White Sox

00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:19.340
was longer than the curse of the Bambino. It

00:43:19.340 --> 00:43:21.480
didn't get broken until the year after the Red

00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:24.280
Sox won, of course, in 2005. I mean, the White

00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:26.550
Sox appeared in one other World Series. from

00:43:26.550 --> 00:43:29.809
1919 until they won in 2005. But they hadn't

00:43:29.809 --> 00:43:32.809
won since the previous one before the Black Sox

00:43:32.809 --> 00:43:36.190
scandal. And it's sad because Comiskey and the

00:43:36.190 --> 00:43:38.150
family still controlled the White Sox even while

00:43:38.150 --> 00:43:40.670
they were into downturn and even while they continued

00:43:40.670 --> 00:43:43.489
to struggle in the ballpark that was named after

00:43:43.489 --> 00:43:47.250
the original owner. And eventually, another Chicago

00:43:47.250 --> 00:43:49.610
man would come around. Another man connected

00:43:49.610 --> 00:43:51.949
to the Cubs would come around and Bill Veck.

00:43:52.130 --> 00:43:53.769
We'll talk about him a little bit. We're going

00:43:53.769 --> 00:43:56.650
to stay in Chicago, though. After the break,

00:43:56.829 --> 00:43:58.989
we're going to go to the north side. We're going

00:43:58.989 --> 00:44:01.889
to talk about the man that also adorns his ballpark,

00:44:02.010 --> 00:44:05.409
and that's Philip K. Wrigley. Take our first

00:44:05.409 --> 00:44:07.949
break of the Service Time podcast. And back with

00:44:07.949 --> 00:44:10.070
more, going to the north side, talking about

00:44:10.070 --> 00:44:14.550
the Cubs. All right, 45 minutes in, talking about

00:44:14.550 --> 00:44:17.369
a couple of old -school owners. We'll have some

00:44:17.369 --> 00:44:20.230
of the new -ish owners toward the end of this

00:44:20.230 --> 00:44:22.769
show. And a reminder, we'll have... Plenty more

00:44:22.769 --> 00:44:25.170
to talk about when it comes to the modern owners

00:44:25.170 --> 00:44:28.070
of baseball in later episodes of this series.

00:44:28.289 --> 00:44:30.230
We're trying to get some of the old school guys

00:44:30.230 --> 00:44:32.130
out of the way because, well, we're not going

00:44:32.130 --> 00:44:34.570
to talk about them much moving forward. A reminder,

00:44:34.690 --> 00:44:37.010
you can interact with us on the Substack page.

00:44:37.250 --> 00:44:40.590
But for now, let's get back to the show. Welcome

00:44:40.590 --> 00:44:45.369
back. Philip K. Wrigley, second generation gum

00:44:45.369 --> 00:44:55.260
maker. empire that is chewing gum. You know,

00:44:55.280 --> 00:44:57.079
when was the last time you had a juicy fruit,

00:44:57.179 --> 00:45:00.719
Scott? A juicy fruit? No, no, I stick to Eclipse,

00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:04.369
or Orbit. Orbits. Whatever. The point being is

00:45:04.369 --> 00:45:08.590
this was a business tycoon that just so happened

00:45:08.590 --> 00:45:11.269
to own a baseball team. You notice the common

00:45:11.269 --> 00:45:13.110
thread in the first couple of owners we talk

00:45:13.110 --> 00:45:16.070
about in Mack and Comiskey. Players who were

00:45:16.070 --> 00:45:18.909
well -regarded, who were very popular, then were

00:45:18.909 --> 00:45:22.010
seemingly obvious choices to then become an owner

00:45:22.010 --> 00:45:24.900
of a team. Philip Wrigley now starts this shift

00:45:24.900 --> 00:45:26.860
and his father, of course, who was the original

00:45:26.860 --> 00:45:28.699
owner of the Cubs. But the reason why we're not

00:45:28.699 --> 00:45:30.360
talking about him is because Wrigley oversaw,

00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:33.500
the junior that is, saw the majority of the change

00:45:33.500 --> 00:45:36.059
that we see that the Cubs had to go through during

00:45:36.059 --> 00:45:38.239
their Billy Goat curse during the times. While

00:45:38.239 --> 00:45:40.619
his father dealt with the Billy Goat curse, it

00:45:40.619 --> 00:45:43.260
was Junior that really maintained that curse

00:45:43.260 --> 00:45:45.639
on his own failures and his own issues that he

00:45:45.639 --> 00:45:48.460
had at Wrigley Field. But it's a reminder in

00:45:48.460 --> 00:45:51.789
1932 when his father passed away. He still took

00:45:51.789 --> 00:45:54.210
on the gum empire, but also said, and by the

00:45:54.210 --> 00:45:55.849
way, you get to run the Cubs now. And he didn't

00:45:55.849 --> 00:45:59.489
really want to do it. When we think about owners

00:45:59.489 --> 00:46:01.849
and businessmen, like the opening line of the

00:46:01.849 --> 00:46:04.329
show where, you know, they see this as a hobby.

00:46:04.809 --> 00:46:06.989
Wrigley is one of those guys that sees this like,

00:46:07.050 --> 00:46:09.730
yeah, my dad had this baseball team, but I guess

00:46:09.730 --> 00:46:12.469
I got to run it. And like you said earlier, you

00:46:12.469 --> 00:46:14.309
were the general manager too. There's a whole,

00:46:14.389 --> 00:46:18.150
a lot of extra going on when it comes to. Being

00:46:18.150 --> 00:46:19.789
the owner of a team, you got to be the GM. You

00:46:19.789 --> 00:46:22.530
got to run a farm system. You got to hire a manager.

00:46:22.750 --> 00:46:24.869
You got to do a lot of things as the owner in

00:46:24.869 --> 00:46:27.849
these 30s. We didn't have 150 -person front offices

00:46:27.849 --> 00:46:30.750
in these days. It was just ticket takers, ushers,

00:46:30.750 --> 00:46:32.650
and the owner. That's really all that was on

00:46:32.650 --> 00:46:35.110
the payroll for a team. And Wrigley maintained

00:46:35.110 --> 00:46:39.090
that while still maintaining Wrigley Field, the

00:46:39.090 --> 00:46:41.550
ballpark that adorned his father's name. The

00:46:41.550 --> 00:46:44.369
thing that you have to remember about the Cubs

00:46:44.369 --> 00:46:48.800
and their... of success on the North side. When

00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:51.320
they moved from the West side of Chicago to the

00:46:51.320 --> 00:46:53.099
North side of Chicago to get closer to some of

00:46:53.099 --> 00:46:56.239
the more wealth and some of the, I hate to say

00:46:56.239 --> 00:46:58.179
it like this, but the truth is the white fans

00:46:58.179 --> 00:47:00.280
that they wanted to attract. Because remember

00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:03.179
in the history of Chicago and the history of

00:47:03.179 --> 00:47:08.150
immigration to the second great city. A lot of

00:47:08.150 --> 00:47:09.949
the immigrants moved to the west side of the

00:47:09.949 --> 00:47:12.469
city. That's where you still see a lot of the

00:47:12.469 --> 00:47:16.090
culture and a lot of the little pockets of neighborhoods,

00:47:16.269 --> 00:47:19.269
the Ukrainian village, a lot of Latin influence

00:47:19.269 --> 00:47:21.590
out there on the west side. And still to this

00:47:21.590 --> 00:47:23.469
day, it's been pretty gentrified, obviously.

00:47:23.849 --> 00:47:27.889
But the north side was still always white. wealthy,

00:47:27.969 --> 00:47:30.269
even Jewish a lot of times on the north side

00:47:30.269 --> 00:47:32.329
of Chicago. That's where the Cubs ultimately

00:47:32.329 --> 00:47:34.329
wanted to go and how Wrigley Field was built

00:47:34.329 --> 00:47:37.909
and maintained. And that standard was set by

00:47:37.909 --> 00:47:40.750
his father and maintained by Junior and Phillip

00:47:40.750 --> 00:47:44.670
saying, this needs to be the cleanest, most pleasant

00:47:44.670 --> 00:47:48.349
ballpark in the National League. For a long time.

00:47:48.889 --> 00:47:51.690
It wasn't, Scott. Fans were complaining about

00:47:51.690 --> 00:47:54.070
sitting in the bleachers and sitting that their

00:47:54.070 --> 00:47:57.650
pants were getting destroyed. The fans were not

00:47:57.650 --> 00:48:00.329
having a good time. The wind was so freezing

00:48:00.329 --> 00:48:03.030
off the lake that it became a wind tunnel underneath

00:48:03.030 --> 00:48:05.809
the awnings. It was not a great place to watch

00:48:05.809 --> 00:48:10.929
a baseball game. Wrigley, again, the son, saw

00:48:10.929 --> 00:48:13.070
this and said, we got to clean this up. We got

00:48:13.070 --> 00:48:16.130
to make this a world -class experience to come

00:48:16.130 --> 00:48:21.210
to Wrigley Field. I would say legacies is cleaning

00:48:21.210 --> 00:48:23.849
up Wrigley field after it kind of fell into disrepair,

00:48:23.929 --> 00:48:27.690
struggling with, you know, the dirt and the grime.

00:48:27.710 --> 00:48:31.329
And this is not just a Chicago isolated thing,

00:48:31.389 --> 00:48:34.070
but remember most of the industry was isolated

00:48:34.070 --> 00:48:36.449
to the South side of Chicago. The rich were on

00:48:36.449 --> 00:48:38.730
the North. Chicago was not a clean city in the

00:48:38.730 --> 00:48:41.590
early 1900s. We talk about rebuilding from the

00:48:41.590 --> 00:48:44.530
fires and it's fascinating. If you ever go to

00:48:44.530 --> 00:48:47.110
Chicago, by the way, just. Go on one of those

00:48:47.110 --> 00:48:48.750
river architecture tours. You're going to learn

00:48:48.750 --> 00:48:51.289
so much about the city of Chicago. And I really,

00:48:51.369 --> 00:48:55.010
really enjoyed my time doing all that. But sidebar,

00:48:55.150 --> 00:48:58.070
back here to Philip Wrigley. The other piece

00:48:58.070 --> 00:49:01.289
that we have to talk about Wrigley and what makes

00:49:01.289 --> 00:49:03.889
him famous, aside from the Cubs and aside from

00:49:03.889 --> 00:49:07.730
how bad his teams were, was what we all know

00:49:07.730 --> 00:49:10.170
now as a league of their own. That's right. Philip

00:49:10.170 --> 00:49:12.630
K. Wrigley was one of the original founders and

00:49:12.630 --> 00:49:15.329
one of the original... owners of the All -American

00:49:15.329 --> 00:49:18.889
Girls Baseball League, and had games played at

00:49:18.889 --> 00:49:21.849
Wrigley Field during World War II. I know you

00:49:21.849 --> 00:49:24.929
know plenty about baseball movies, Scott. This

00:49:24.929 --> 00:49:28.070
isn't just a movie. This is a real story about

00:49:28.070 --> 00:49:29.530
a league of their own, and Philip K. Wrigley

00:49:29.530 --> 00:49:31.849
is a big reason why it happened. If you notice

00:49:31.849 --> 00:49:34.489
in the movie, they have the tryouts at Wrigley

00:49:34.489 --> 00:49:37.210
Field. They all trained into Wrigley Field, and

00:49:37.210 --> 00:49:39.989
then all the teams were around the area. They

00:49:39.989 --> 00:49:42.550
didn't want a team in Chicago, but they had Rockford.

00:49:43.050 --> 00:49:47.989
They had Kenosha. Kenosha. To a point you said

00:49:47.989 --> 00:49:50.369
earlier, Philip K. Wrigley, that kind of ties

00:49:50.369 --> 00:49:52.849
into someone we'll talk about later. You said

00:49:52.849 --> 00:49:56.289
he hired the ushers and the ticket takers and

00:49:56.289 --> 00:49:58.889
stuff like that. One name that we'll see later

00:49:58.889 --> 00:50:01.949
that he hired, I think he was 18 at the time,

00:50:02.030 --> 00:50:05.050
was a young Bill Veck. His first job was working

00:50:05.050 --> 00:50:08.550
under Philip Wrigley with the Chicago Cubs. And

00:50:08.550 --> 00:50:11.159
when you mentioned cleaning up the stadium. I

00:50:11.159 --> 00:50:12.599
don't know if this is apocryphal, but they're

00:50:12.599 --> 00:50:16.139
saying the idea of putting Ivy on the brick wall

00:50:16.139 --> 00:50:19.059
came from Bill Veck. And they're saying that's

00:50:19.059 --> 00:50:21.639
the one thing that stayed. I don't know if that's

00:50:21.639 --> 00:50:23.039
true. I don't know if that's Bill Veck telling

00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:24.420
tales. That's the thing you'll find with Bill

00:50:24.420 --> 00:50:27.460
Veck later on. He tells a lot of tales that have

00:50:27.460 --> 00:50:29.840
some truth to them, but a lot of fiction as well.

00:50:30.139 --> 00:50:32.000
But it's just an interesting little tie -in.

00:50:32.099 --> 00:50:34.800
Baseball is a small world. The fact that Philip

00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:38.579
K. Wrigley employed someone who would be a notorious

00:50:38.579 --> 00:50:41.650
manager. later and later years with the league

00:50:41.650 --> 00:50:43.369
is just kind of funny, small little connection

00:50:43.369 --> 00:50:46.670
in my book. And then furthermore, Vex father

00:50:46.670 --> 00:50:50.230
worked under the original Wrigley and Bill Vex

00:50:50.230 --> 00:50:53.369
senior. And this is a great quote from the society

00:50:53.369 --> 00:50:56.099
of American baseball research. on Wrigley talking

00:50:56.099 --> 00:50:58.980
about Bill Veck Sr. when he passed away in 1934

00:50:58.980 --> 00:51:01.840
and was president of the team as Wrigley was

00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:04.260
taking over, the junior was taking over. Quote,

00:51:04.280 --> 00:51:06.960
God knows I don't want the job. If I could find

00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:09.699
another Bill Veck Sr., I'd put him in there in

00:51:09.699 --> 00:51:11.599
a minute, but he doesn't seem to be available.

00:51:11.820 --> 00:51:14.059
No matter who's in there, if anything goes wrong,

00:51:14.219 --> 00:51:16.019
I'm going to get blamed for it, so I might as

00:51:16.019 --> 00:51:18.159
well take the job myself. That's Philip K. Wrigley

00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:20.820
talking about it. Eventually getting Veck Jr.

00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:23.539
into the fold and helping clean up Wrigley Field

00:51:23.539 --> 00:51:26.860
as he talked about. We talk about the All -American

00:51:26.860 --> 00:51:30.079
Professional Girls League, and it's fun for a

00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:32.840
few years, but ultimately the bane of its existence

00:51:32.840 --> 00:51:34.940
was it didn't make any money, and also the boys

00:51:34.940 --> 00:51:37.739
were coming back home for war. So the Women's

00:51:37.739 --> 00:51:39.679
League folds. Now all the focus for Wrigley has

00:51:39.679 --> 00:51:42.119
to go back to the Cubs and trying to sustain

00:51:42.119 --> 00:51:44.820
this juggernaut and trying to sustain this amazing

00:51:44.820 --> 00:51:47.380
market that he has for baseball with the Cubs.

00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:50.739
The two biggest flaws that Wrigley had during

00:51:50.739 --> 00:51:53.019
his time is actually running the team and running

00:51:53.019 --> 00:51:55.880
it as a consistent, trying to make it a consistent

00:51:55.880 --> 00:51:59.119
winner. His inconsistencies in the manager position,

00:51:59.300 --> 00:52:02.239
maybe his most notorious chapter is the College

00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:03.699
of Coaches. Have you heard about the College

00:52:03.699 --> 00:52:06.519
of Coaches? I have not. The College of Coaches

00:52:06.519 --> 00:52:11.420
was an abject failure by all accounts where what

00:52:11.420 --> 00:52:14.960
Wrigley instituted in the early 60s was saying,

00:52:15.059 --> 00:52:17.670
okay, you know what? I've failed with hiring

00:52:17.670 --> 00:52:20.289
so many managers. I've failed with hiring general

00:52:20.289 --> 00:52:22.489
managers. Forget it. I'm just going to have a

00:52:22.489 --> 00:52:24.889
rotating cast. I'm going to bring up guys from

00:52:24.889 --> 00:52:26.250
the minor leagues and say, you're the manager

00:52:26.250 --> 00:52:27.750
for this month, and then put them back down.

00:52:27.869 --> 00:52:29.829
And then this guy will come in and be the manager

00:52:29.829 --> 00:52:31.289
for a couple of months, and then he goes back

00:52:31.289 --> 00:52:32.570
down. I'll have a different hitting coach for

00:52:32.570 --> 00:52:34.869
this month. I'm trying to bring in all the great

00:52:34.869 --> 00:52:37.369
minds in my organization to help the teams at

00:52:37.369 --> 00:52:40.570
different times of trying to get the Cubs to

00:52:40.570 --> 00:52:42.489
win games. How do you think that went, Scott?

00:52:44.119 --> 00:52:46.460
I don't think it went well, but you'll find this.

00:52:46.539 --> 00:52:48.320
There's a couple other stories I've got later

00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:50.820
on of other owners of things that were done during

00:52:50.820 --> 00:52:54.119
this day where today would seem crazy because

00:52:54.119 --> 00:52:57.840
people tried it. It failed. No one ever did it

00:52:57.840 --> 00:52:59.820
again. We have a standard thing in place now.

00:52:59.920 --> 00:53:02.320
Now you have a manager and a GM that are in place

00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:06.260
for a while unless the team goes bad or the Cubs

00:53:06.260 --> 00:53:08.519
poach the Brewers manager or something like that.

00:53:08.699 --> 00:53:13.150
But back then, this... These hadn't been tried

00:53:13.150 --> 00:53:15.989
before, so maybe he thought he was on to something.

00:53:16.150 --> 00:53:19.269
Maybe he thought he was going to be the first

00:53:19.269 --> 00:53:23.489
analytics king. I mean, in 1961, four different

00:53:23.489 --> 00:53:26.449
managers managed the Cubs that season. Betty

00:53:26.449 --> 00:53:30.409
Himsel, Harry Kraft, El Tap, and Lou Klein. I

00:53:30.409 --> 00:53:33.469
mean, it's all over the place. 16 games for Kraft,

00:53:33.710 --> 00:53:37.530
11 games for Klein. And then in 1962, three more

00:53:37.530 --> 00:53:39.960
managers. Klein and Tapp are still in this. Then

00:53:39.960 --> 00:53:42.579
Charlie Metro joins the fold. Now, are these

00:53:42.579 --> 00:53:45.079
all player managers as well? There's player managers

00:53:45.079 --> 00:53:47.340
in here. There's different hitting coaches. There's

00:53:47.340 --> 00:53:50.179
pitching coaches. It's crazy. And again, the

00:53:50.179 --> 00:53:53.980
success did not follow. 1961, they lost 90 games.

00:53:54.099 --> 00:53:58.820
1962, they lost 103 games. 1963, they're finally

00:53:58.820 --> 00:54:01.219
above 500, but they still finished 7th in the

00:54:01.219 --> 00:54:05.150
National League at 82 -80. In 1964, they only

00:54:05.150 --> 00:54:08.969
win 76 games, and then it really all comes crashing

00:54:08.969 --> 00:54:13.909
down in 1965, or excuse me, 1966, in Leo DeRocher's

00:54:13.909 --> 00:54:16.030
first year as manager. Yeah, Leo DeRocher still

00:54:16.030 --> 00:54:18.030
bouncing around, still being a manager in the

00:54:18.030 --> 00:54:23.030
60s, loses 103 games on the 1966 Chicago Cubs.

00:54:23.090 --> 00:54:26.789
Despite Ron Sanso, despite Billy Williams, despite

00:54:26.789 --> 00:54:30.110
some of the great players of the mid -late 60s

00:54:30.110 --> 00:54:32.570
arriving to the Cubs, Ernie Banks is still playing.

00:54:32.590 --> 00:54:35.769
playing at this time at age 35, playing 140 games.

00:54:35.869 --> 00:54:39.429
He wasn't himself anymore, but this was an abject

00:54:39.429 --> 00:54:43.349
failure by Philip Wrigley in the early 60s, wasting

00:54:43.349 --> 00:54:46.590
some of the final prime years of Ernie Banks,

00:54:46.809 --> 00:54:49.769
Mr. Cub, who spent his entire career there with

00:54:49.769 --> 00:54:52.710
Wrigley. We know the stories, back -to -back

00:54:52.710 --> 00:54:58.510
MVPs in 58 and 59, in years that the Cubs weren't

00:54:58.510 --> 00:55:02.829
great. but they still weren't going to the postseason

00:55:02.829 --> 00:55:04.670
because there wasn't expanded playoffs at this

00:55:04.670 --> 00:55:07.610
time. They were in the top half of the National

00:55:07.610 --> 00:55:09.750
League, but they weren't going to the postseason.

00:55:09.849 --> 00:55:11.550
Ernie Banks was making history being one of the

00:55:11.550 --> 00:55:14.630
best players on the worst teams, but again, because

00:55:14.630 --> 00:55:17.570
of the reserve clause, Ernie's staying put. Phillip

00:55:17.570 --> 00:55:19.329
doesn't have to worry about overpaying him, doesn't

00:55:19.329 --> 00:55:21.650
have to worry about, you know, could this guy

00:55:21.650 --> 00:55:24.150
be poached, could this guy be leaving. Ernie

00:55:24.150 --> 00:55:26.070
Banks is a big reason why Phillip Wrigley got

00:55:26.070 --> 00:55:28.610
a lot of goodwill because he kept him around.

00:55:29.239 --> 00:55:31.280
despite the fact that he's technically not his

00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:33.659
own homegrown player. The other abject failure

00:55:33.659 --> 00:55:36.659
that Wrigley had was demolishing his minor leagues.

00:55:36.860 --> 00:55:39.659
This is something he totally misunderstood. from

00:55:39.659 --> 00:55:41.579
Kennesaw Mountain Landis. We talked about that

00:55:41.579 --> 00:55:43.139
in the commissioner episode where Landis thought

00:55:43.139 --> 00:55:45.019
the minor leagues were a threat to Major League

00:55:45.019 --> 00:55:47.440
Baseball. He was instructing owners, you should

00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:50.380
not be operating minor league teams. And Wrigley

00:55:50.380 --> 00:55:51.960
took that to heart. Okay, great, that's less

00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:54.059
money that I have to spend. I don't care about

00:55:54.059 --> 00:55:55.699
these teams. I don't care about these minor league

00:55:55.699 --> 00:55:58.099
players. He would consistently be selling them,

00:55:58.139 --> 00:56:00.260
selling them, selling them to anyone of the highest

00:56:00.260 --> 00:56:02.119
bidder who just wanted these players who would

00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:04.420
go on to become better players for those teams.

00:56:04.539 --> 00:56:06.340
And now he's finding himself with a perennial

00:56:06.340 --> 00:56:09.269
loser every single season. He can't find anybody

00:56:09.269 --> 00:56:11.389
because he doesn't have anybody in his farm system.

00:56:11.630 --> 00:56:14.550
So he's one of the last organizations to finally

00:56:14.550 --> 00:56:17.349
go to the Negro Leagues and sign Ernie Banks

00:56:17.349 --> 00:56:20.329
in 1952. I mean, most of the league was integrated

00:56:20.329 --> 00:56:23.449
by this point, still in 1952, and Banks comes

00:56:23.449 --> 00:56:25.570
along and becomes one of the best players and

00:56:25.570 --> 00:56:28.510
arguably the best player in Cubs franchise history.

00:56:29.010 --> 00:56:32.349
He might be the best player to never play a playoff

00:56:32.349 --> 00:56:34.599
game. You always hit a list. Who's the best player

00:56:34.599 --> 00:56:36.239
that never played in the playoffs? Of course,

00:56:36.260 --> 00:56:39.599
back then, it was just the World Series. Actually,

00:56:39.639 --> 00:56:42.679
when did the Championship Series start? The League

00:56:42.679 --> 00:56:45.420
Championship Series started in 1969. Yeah, whenever

00:56:45.420 --> 00:56:47.199
you see those lists, who's the best player to

00:56:47.199 --> 00:56:49.980
never be in the postseason or the best player

00:56:49.980 --> 00:56:53.139
on the worst team? I'm trying to see here. They

00:56:53.139 --> 00:56:57.320
only had, like, what, three winning seasons with

00:56:57.320 --> 00:57:01.590
Ernie Banks? 53 to 71? I guess they had a few

00:57:01.590 --> 00:57:04.530
at the end of his career, but his first 14 years

00:57:04.530 --> 00:57:06.750
of his career, they had a winning record once

00:57:06.750 --> 00:57:10.989
at 82 -80. For having one of the best players,

00:57:11.070 --> 00:57:13.289
that's bad. So we talk about a lot that went

00:57:13.289 --> 00:57:15.489
wrong for Wrigley. Obviously, the teams didn't

00:57:15.489 --> 00:57:17.889
win many games, and yes, he had Ernie Banks,

00:57:18.030 --> 00:57:21.010
but there's one thing that his legacy gets to

00:57:21.010 --> 00:57:23.010
stand on, and it's the thing that's going to

00:57:23.010 --> 00:57:25.610
tie us to one of the final owners we talk about

00:57:25.610 --> 00:57:28.489
in Ted Turner, and that is the relationship that

00:57:28.489 --> 00:57:33.570
he created. with WGN and live television. I am

00:57:33.570 --> 00:57:36.309
on a soapbox here for a second here, Scott, because

00:57:36.309 --> 00:57:40.010
I found this quote in the sporting news trying

00:57:40.010 --> 00:57:45.630
to understand in 1948 how WGN first started broadcasting

00:57:45.630 --> 00:57:49.429
games for the Cubs and how Philip Wrigley had

00:57:49.429 --> 00:57:52.789
the foresight to think, I need to make these

00:57:52.789 --> 00:57:58.320
games available. 80 years later, we still can't

00:57:58.320 --> 00:58:02.500
get this right. But in 1948, Philip Wrigley had

00:58:02.500 --> 00:58:04.119
it right. Let me read you this quote from the

00:58:04.119 --> 00:58:07.300
Sporting News. We do not propose to televise

00:58:07.300 --> 00:58:09.820
our games solely for the dyed -in -the -wool

00:58:09.820 --> 00:58:13.829
fans who can't attend. Instead... We hope to

00:58:13.829 --> 00:58:17.269
perfect our telecasts so they will make new fans.

00:58:17.570 --> 00:58:20.110
Wrigley explaining a visit to the LA version

00:58:20.110 --> 00:58:22.369
of Wrigley Field where experiments are being

00:58:22.369 --> 00:58:25.130
conducted by representatives of WBKB of Chicago,

00:58:25.530 --> 00:58:29.309
KTLA of Los Angeles, and WGN -TV of Chicago.

00:58:29.849 --> 00:58:33.449
Wrigley was openly auditioning television markets.

00:58:33.590 --> 00:58:35.949
Say, hey, what are the best angles? How can we

00:58:35.949 --> 00:58:38.550
set up the best sort of infrastructure for you

00:58:38.550 --> 00:58:41.670
to televise our games and show us to the rest

00:58:41.670 --> 00:58:44.760
of the country? And the fact that he was openly

00:58:44.760 --> 00:58:47.380
saying, no, we need to televise these games.

00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:50.199
It wasn't all the home games, but we need to

00:58:50.199 --> 00:58:52.739
televise these games to show off why people should

00:58:52.739 --> 00:58:55.440
be baseball fans. And one thing about this is

00:58:55.440 --> 00:58:59.079
this is novel thinking because during this time,

00:58:59.099 --> 00:59:01.679
there were a lot of owners that thought televising

00:59:01.679 --> 00:59:03.960
a game means it will keep fans from going to

00:59:03.960 --> 00:59:06.059
the stadium. They didn't view it as, oh, this

00:59:06.059 --> 00:59:08.500
will grow our fan base. They viewed it as this

00:59:08.500 --> 00:59:11.269
will make us less money. Because we want as many

00:59:11.269 --> 00:59:13.369
people going through the turnstiles buying tickets,

00:59:13.530 --> 00:59:16.250
which is how we make our revenue. Now, that seems

00:59:16.250 --> 00:59:18.650
silly today based on how large these television

00:59:18.650 --> 00:59:21.369
contracts are. But at the time, yeah, Philip

00:59:21.369 --> 00:59:25.590
Wrigley was ahead of the game as far as his views

00:59:25.590 --> 00:59:30.199
towards television. In 1948, it was a big deal

00:59:30.199 --> 00:59:32.800
that spring training games are going to be televised

00:59:32.800 --> 00:59:34.980
for the first time. And no one really knew how

00:59:34.980 --> 00:59:37.460
to react to it. But Wrigley, again, was on top

00:59:37.460 --> 00:59:39.820
of it saying, I'm in on this. I want this to

00:59:39.820 --> 00:59:42.179
be broadcasted. And the way that he found on

00:59:42.179 --> 00:59:45.619
WGN and the way that he was able to get to WGN,

00:59:45.739 --> 00:59:48.559
in 1949, after one year after this experiment

00:59:48.559 --> 00:59:51.699
of trying to see if we can televise games, the

00:59:51.699 --> 00:59:54.440
Cubs and Wrigley actually donated their broadcasting

00:59:54.440 --> 00:59:58.170
rights. There was not a rights fee to broadcast

00:59:58.170 --> 01:00:00.510
Cubs games at this time because Wrigley said,

01:00:00.710 --> 01:00:02.690
I just want to make sure I flood the market.

01:00:02.789 --> 01:00:04.489
I want to make sure that anybody that wants to

01:00:04.489 --> 01:00:07.170
watch or listen to the Cubs is able to do so.

01:00:07.309 --> 01:00:10.010
So he donated it to three television networks

01:00:10.010 --> 01:00:15.250
locally within Chicago. WENER, WGN is the one

01:00:15.250 --> 01:00:17.690
that obviously stuck around, and a third locally

01:00:17.690 --> 01:00:20.510
on the ABC network. Jack Brickhouse was hired

01:00:20.510 --> 01:00:23.920
for WGN, one of the... OG voices of baseball

01:00:23.920 --> 01:00:27.820
that we talk about in, you know, Fort C. Frick

01:00:27.820 --> 01:00:31.820
Hall of Fame for broadcasters. But to think that

01:00:31.820 --> 01:00:35.920
they donated it, GM Jim Gallagher at the time,

01:00:35.940 --> 01:00:38.219
and one last aside on Jim Gallagher in a moment,

01:00:38.260 --> 01:00:42.019
but to think that we believe in showcasing our

01:00:42.019 --> 01:00:44.460
games. We believe in making it available to the

01:00:44.460 --> 01:00:47.780
fans. Ultimately, WGN would be broadcasting games

01:00:47.780 --> 01:00:51.579
up until marquee. came along for their own television

01:00:51.579 --> 01:00:54.380
network because WGN was then owned by the Tribune

01:00:54.380 --> 01:00:56.340
Company, which was the Chicago Tribune, and it

01:00:56.340 --> 01:00:58.440
became a whole media conglomerate on the other

01:00:58.440 --> 01:00:59.780
side, which is what we'll see again with Ted

01:00:59.780 --> 01:01:06.440
Turner. But for WGN to be ready and invest in

01:01:06.440 --> 01:01:09.820
this in the 40s became a cash cow in the 80s

01:01:09.820 --> 01:01:13.300
when the Tribune Company owned the Cubs. It became

01:01:13.300 --> 01:01:17.619
a free deal to broadcast these games to then

01:01:17.619 --> 01:01:20.820
eventually Being owners of the Cubs until the

01:01:20.820 --> 01:01:22.780
Tribune Company sold it to the Ricketts family.

01:01:23.000 --> 01:01:26.500
I think that the biggest thing of WGN's legacy

01:01:26.500 --> 01:01:28.519
and the biggest thing of Philip Wrigley's legacy

01:01:28.519 --> 01:01:32.659
is starting this relationship with WGN. WGN obviously

01:01:32.659 --> 01:01:35.539
became a superstation and was available on ultra

01:01:35.539 --> 01:01:39.219
-high frequency cable and able across the country.

01:01:39.400 --> 01:01:42.239
And I will bang on the table over and over and

01:01:42.239 --> 01:01:44.820
over again about this take. The fact that...

01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:47.920
You see so many Cubs fans. You see so many Braves

01:01:47.920 --> 01:01:50.500
fans. It's the same reason why you see so many

01:01:50.500 --> 01:01:53.260
Cowboys fans, so many Steelers fans, because

01:01:53.260 --> 01:01:58.039
they were available. Just turn the game on. Just

01:01:58.039 --> 01:02:01.260
be able to watch a game. All that is because

01:02:01.260 --> 01:02:04.630
the last bit of legacy for Wrigley. He never

01:02:04.630 --> 01:02:06.829
put lights in. He never put lights in at Wrigley

01:02:06.829 --> 01:02:11.010
Field despite the constant public pressure. We

01:02:11.010 --> 01:02:12.849
want lights. We need to generate revenue for

01:02:12.849 --> 01:02:16.329
night games. He was, in fact, sued by a minority

01:02:16.329 --> 01:02:20.190
owner trying to say, hey, we have lost revenues

01:02:20.190 --> 01:02:22.809
by you refusing to install lights. They nearly

01:02:22.809 --> 01:02:26.170
installed lights for the 1942 season, but instead

01:02:26.170 --> 01:02:29.210
Pearl Harbor happened and they donated the copper

01:02:29.210 --> 01:02:31.849
and steel they had already purchased to install

01:02:31.849 --> 01:02:34.980
lights at Wrigley. to the war effort. All those

01:02:34.980 --> 01:02:38.059
years that WGN was on at 1 .30 in the afternoon

01:02:38.059 --> 01:02:40.219
for first pitch, there was daytime programming

01:02:40.219 --> 01:02:42.440
for kids like me coming home from school. I could

01:02:42.440 --> 01:02:45.159
turn on the end of the Cubs game. That was totally

01:02:45.159 --> 01:02:47.719
normal for multiple generations of baseball.

01:02:47.980 --> 01:02:51.119
And now we're sitting here going, oh, blackout.

01:02:51.139 --> 01:02:52.820
Oh, I got to go to Apple TV for this one. I got

01:02:52.820 --> 01:02:54.500
to go to this. Oh, wait, this game's actually

01:02:54.500 --> 01:02:58.400
only streaming. They had it right in 1948. Why

01:02:58.400 --> 01:03:00.920
can't we go back to that? And the kind of proof

01:03:00.920 --> 01:03:04.000
of how this worked is, you know, WGN back then,

01:03:04.059 --> 01:03:07.119
we didn't have cable, so it was all over the

01:03:07.119 --> 01:03:10.400
air. So WGN a lot of times only broadcasted it

01:03:10.400 --> 01:03:13.360
back in the 40s and 50s to the surrounding states.

01:03:13.760 --> 01:03:15.119
And I don't know if you've ever been to Iowa.

01:03:15.610 --> 01:03:18.429
And what team people from Iowa follow. But the

01:03:18.429 --> 01:03:21.670
vast majority is Cubs fans. And you have the

01:03:21.670 --> 01:03:24.190
Cardinals not far away. You have the Twins not

01:03:24.190 --> 01:03:26.309
far away. You have the Brewers not far away.

01:03:26.429 --> 01:03:28.590
But they're all Cubs fans. And people might go,

01:03:28.670 --> 01:03:30.329
oh, it's because the minor league team is there

01:03:30.329 --> 01:03:32.590
in Des Moines. The minor league team wasn't a

01:03:32.590 --> 01:03:35.730
Chicago Cubs affiliate until 1981. So they won

01:03:35.730 --> 01:03:39.670
the battle over having Iowa be their fan base

01:03:39.670 --> 01:03:43.059
largely because of WGN. I mean, it wasn't because

01:03:43.059 --> 01:03:44.840
of their play on the field, obviously. Yeah,

01:03:44.840 --> 01:03:48.230
that's for sure. It's regionality. It's exposure,

01:03:48.469 --> 01:03:50.889
and it's the ability to say, oh, hey, I watched

01:03:50.889 --> 01:03:52.750
that team. I enjoy being entertained because

01:03:52.750 --> 01:03:55.050
they were that daytime entertainment that WGN

01:03:55.050 --> 01:03:56.710
was asking for because otherwise they had news

01:03:56.710 --> 01:03:59.489
and all that sort of thing. Two little blips

01:03:59.489 --> 01:04:00.949
that I didn't really talk about. Again, he was

01:04:00.949 --> 01:04:03.469
sued by one of his minority owners. I'll put

01:04:03.469 --> 01:04:05.190
that in the sub stack as well for some of the

01:04:05.190 --> 01:04:08.250
information on that case in 1968. Wrigley won

01:04:08.250 --> 01:04:10.469
the case, by the way, to keep lights away from

01:04:10.469 --> 01:04:12.670
Wrigley Field, saying it would disturb the neighborhood.

01:04:12.889 --> 01:04:15.010
So he won that case. And the other bit of legacy

01:04:15.010 --> 01:04:17.179
that I didn't really talk about is Jim. Gallagher,

01:04:17.199 --> 01:04:19.380
who was a sports writer at the time in Chicago,

01:04:19.619 --> 01:04:22.300
who was openly critical of how Wrigley was running

01:04:22.300 --> 01:04:24.480
the team. And Wrigley said, put his money where

01:04:24.480 --> 01:04:26.480
his mouth is and said, okay, fine. You run the

01:04:26.480 --> 01:04:28.579
team then. You're my general manager. And that

01:04:28.579 --> 01:04:30.320
went exactly how you thought it would go in the

01:04:30.320 --> 01:04:32.579
50s. Jim Gallagher was not a very good general

01:04:32.579 --> 01:04:34.519
manager, and thus he was fired by Philip Wrigley.

01:04:34.659 --> 01:04:37.719
I would love if an owner tried that today. Could

01:04:37.719 --> 01:04:40.820
you imagine? Yeah. Hey, Skip Bayless, run the

01:04:40.820 --> 01:04:44.619
team. So it's a complicated legacy for Philip

01:04:44.619 --> 01:04:47.860
K. Wrigley. Look, Wrigley Field became one of

01:04:47.860 --> 01:04:51.920
the most famous ballparks during his time. WGN

01:04:51.920 --> 01:04:55.539
influence obviously saves a lot of the poor intentions

01:04:55.539 --> 01:04:58.579
that his teams had on the field. But nonetheless,

01:04:58.920 --> 01:05:02.000
Philip Wrigley made a ton of money between the

01:05:02.000 --> 01:05:04.820
Gubb business and the Cubs business before ultimately

01:05:04.820 --> 01:05:06.860
the family gave it up to the Tribune Company,

01:05:06.980 --> 01:05:08.719
which then ultimately gave it up to the Ricketts.

01:05:08.780 --> 01:05:10.800
I mean, there's not that many owners in the history

01:05:10.800 --> 01:05:12.920
of the Chicago Cubs, and to think that Philip

01:05:12.920 --> 01:05:15.579
K. Wrigley is... kind of the connecting thread

01:05:15.579 --> 01:05:17.860
to all of it with establishing the relationship

01:05:17.860 --> 01:05:21.079
to WGN is the biggest piece of his legacy that

01:05:21.079 --> 01:05:23.699
will lead us eventually to Ted Turner. So while

01:05:23.699 --> 01:05:25.239
all the struggles for the Cubs, and we laugh

01:05:25.239 --> 01:05:27.460
in the 30s and 40s and 50s about the Cubs, granted

01:05:27.460 --> 01:05:30.880
they were in the World Series in 1945, one of

01:05:30.880 --> 01:05:33.199
the teams that really rising the power against

01:05:33.199 --> 01:05:36.099
the Cubs in the National League. is the St. Louis

01:05:36.099 --> 01:05:38.360
Cardinals. And while he's not technically an

01:05:38.360 --> 01:05:41.460
owner, he needs to be discussed in this episode.

01:05:41.679 --> 01:05:43.840
It's Branch Rickey. We talked a little bit about

01:05:43.840 --> 01:05:46.239
Branch Rickey during the commissionership and

01:05:46.239 --> 01:05:49.019
talking about the lawsuits and his farming and

01:05:49.019 --> 01:05:50.820
his aggressive tactics while he was with St.

01:05:50.960 --> 01:05:53.579
Louis. The inventor that he was, Branch Rickey,

01:05:53.659 --> 01:05:55.900
ultimately going to the Dodgers and then the

01:05:55.900 --> 01:05:58.260
Pirates. Dodgers where maybe he was most famous,

01:05:58.280 --> 01:06:01.360
of course, signing for Jackie Robinson. He's

01:06:01.360 --> 01:06:03.800
a man whose innovations were so fundamental,

01:06:04.119 --> 01:06:08.360
they reshaped the entire industry. He's an Ohio

01:06:08.360 --> 01:06:11.179
man. He saw the game differently. He was maybe

01:06:11.179 --> 01:06:13.840
the father of sabermetrics, charting games, keeping

01:06:13.840 --> 01:06:16.119
track of on -base percentage by hand himself,

01:06:16.440 --> 01:06:19.500
watching the farm system, stockpiling as many

01:06:19.500 --> 01:06:22.320
players as he possibly could, sometimes against

01:06:22.320 --> 01:06:24.440
their will and sometimes nefariously as well.

01:06:24.599 --> 01:06:28.900
But what Branch Rickey established? And what

01:06:28.900 --> 01:06:31.500
the St. Louis Cardinals ownership enjoyed during

01:06:31.500 --> 01:06:33.880
his time as the general manager and president

01:06:33.880 --> 01:06:37.659
of the team from 1919 through 1942 is the fact

01:06:37.659 --> 01:06:40.579
that he understood how to exploit the reserve

01:06:40.579 --> 01:06:44.639
clause. He understood how to stockpile talent

01:06:44.639 --> 01:06:48.099
that other teams either A, overlooked, B, wasn't

01:06:48.099 --> 01:06:51.099
patient enough, or C, couldn't afford. Because

01:06:51.099 --> 01:06:52.920
by the time these players were ready to go when

01:06:52.920 --> 01:06:55.619
they were 19, 20, 21 years old, they were becoming

01:06:55.619 --> 01:06:59.570
stars with... And you also got to remember, during

01:06:59.570 --> 01:07:01.989
the 30s, when the Cardinals are starting to go

01:07:01.989 --> 01:07:04.510
on a really good run here, it's the Great Depression.

01:07:04.710 --> 01:07:07.389
Most owners don't have a ton of cash to deal

01:07:07.389 --> 01:07:11.610
with to spend and try to outfit others if somebody's

01:07:11.610 --> 01:07:13.969
in a holdout or somebody's trying to make a trade

01:07:13.969 --> 01:07:17.780
and trying to, you know. create conflict between

01:07:17.780 --> 01:07:20.360
each other. In the 30s, the Cardinals were one

01:07:20.360 --> 01:07:21.880
of the best teams in baseball, right? They win

01:07:21.880 --> 01:07:24.940
the World Series in 26. They win it in 31. They

01:07:24.940 --> 01:07:27.400
win it in 34. They even lost two other World

01:07:27.400 --> 01:07:29.880
Series during this time as well. And Branch Rickey,

01:07:29.940 --> 01:07:33.199
on his way out the door in 1942, had his Cardinals

01:07:33.199 --> 01:07:36.400
appear in four out of five World Series during

01:07:36.400 --> 01:07:38.820
the World War II years because of all that talent

01:07:38.820 --> 01:07:40.820
that he stockpiled heading into World War II.

01:07:41.579 --> 01:07:44.599
And we've talked about three owners already.

01:07:45.119 --> 01:07:47.039
Two of them had played Major League Baseball.

01:07:47.500 --> 01:07:50.199
One of them hadn't. I believe Branch Rickey is

01:07:50.199 --> 01:07:52.019
the last one we're going to talk about that actually

01:07:52.019 --> 01:07:54.159
played Major League Baseball, and that was his

01:07:54.159 --> 01:07:57.519
in to baseball. There is a sea change in how

01:07:57.519 --> 01:08:00.739
ownership happens and who owns teams after this.

01:08:00.800 --> 01:08:05.320
So he may be one of the last of a certain type

01:08:05.320 --> 01:08:08.849
of person that was able to own a team. He went

01:08:08.849 --> 01:08:11.510
to Ohio Wesleyan University, played college baseball

01:08:11.510 --> 01:08:14.170
there and football there as well. And then he

01:08:14.170 --> 01:08:16.350
started to be a player manager in semi -pro ball.

01:08:16.550 --> 01:08:21.210
He moved all over Indiana, Iowa, Texas, then

01:08:21.210 --> 01:08:24.189
was purchased by the Reds, came up to the Reds,

01:08:24.189 --> 01:08:26.109
bounced around in their minor league system.

01:08:26.369 --> 01:08:28.489
It was all over the place, but he did go to the

01:08:28.489 --> 01:08:30.829
Browns and he did play major league baseball.

01:08:31.109 --> 01:08:35.819
But again, he was being. A very devout, devout

01:08:35.819 --> 01:08:39.979
man. He refused to play on Sundays. And again,

01:08:40.039 --> 01:08:41.619
like we talked about with Connie Mack, some of

01:08:41.619 --> 01:08:44.579
these prim and proper gentlemen, the Mahatma,

01:08:44.579 --> 01:08:47.119
as he was nicknamed later in his life, he was

01:08:47.119 --> 01:08:51.239
so God -fearing and Bible -thumping, Branch Rickey.

01:08:51.319 --> 01:08:52.939
I mean, he would assign players that weren't

01:08:52.939 --> 01:08:55.979
religious. He was very, I don't want to say he

01:08:55.979 --> 01:09:00.779
wasn't, you know. open to signing black players

01:09:00.779 --> 01:09:02.880
or signing Latin players because he eventually

01:09:02.880 --> 01:09:05.439
would be. But in his early time with the Cardinals,

01:09:05.560 --> 01:09:08.279
there's not exactly a great track record here

01:09:08.279 --> 01:09:11.000
of Branch Rickey's diversity training, if you

01:09:11.000 --> 01:09:14.979
will. But he was a genius coach. He even coached

01:09:14.979 --> 01:09:18.939
University of Michigan when he was going to law

01:09:18.939 --> 01:09:21.220
school. He was coaching that baseball team for

01:09:21.220 --> 01:09:24.199
the Wolverines. Then he goes back into law school.

01:09:24.439 --> 01:09:28.359
He goes to Idaho to... Want to be a decent lawyer?

01:09:28.500 --> 01:09:30.520
Turns out nobody wanted to retain him. He only

01:09:30.520 --> 01:09:32.859
had one client while he was in Idaho as a lawyer,

01:09:32.979 --> 01:09:35.220
knowing he was going to eventually get back into

01:09:35.220 --> 01:09:37.600
baseball. And that's when St. Louis came calling

01:09:37.600 --> 01:09:39.640
and said, hey, can you be an area scout for us

01:09:39.640 --> 01:09:42.079
up there in the Pacific Northwest working for

01:09:42.079 --> 01:09:45.020
the Browns? Somewhere between a scout and a general

01:09:45.020 --> 01:09:46.920
manager, according to the Society of American

01:09:46.920 --> 01:09:49.619
Baseball Research. As ownership changes for the

01:09:49.619 --> 01:09:51.380
Browns went around, the Cardinals had always

01:09:51.380 --> 01:09:54.880
had an eye on him. And in 1917, a new ownership

01:09:54.880 --> 01:09:56.880
group for the Cardinals came in and said, hey,

01:09:56.939 --> 01:09:59.460
leave the Browns. You should come to the Cardinals.

01:09:59.560 --> 01:10:02.420
And he created this monster that was the St.

01:10:02.500 --> 01:10:05.619
Louis Cardinals from 1919 through 1946. Now,

01:10:05.640 --> 01:10:07.260
granted, he didn't see those last four World

01:10:07.260 --> 01:10:10.420
Series titles. By 1942, though, the Cardinals

01:10:10.420 --> 01:10:13.300
and Ricky are starting to strain a little bit.

01:10:13.340 --> 01:10:15.880
Sam Breeden was the owner at the time for St.

01:10:15.979 --> 01:10:18.569
Louis. There's bonus payouts that aren't being

01:10:18.569 --> 01:10:21.869
met. There's fights about the Cedar Rapids decision

01:10:21.869 --> 01:10:24.270
that we talked about with Commissioner Landis

01:10:24.270 --> 01:10:26.350
in the last episode of all of a sudden these

01:10:26.350 --> 01:10:28.350
minor leaguers are freed, that Kennesaw Mountain

01:10:28.350 --> 01:10:32.130
Landis ordered Branch Rickey was being too cheap

01:10:32.130 --> 01:10:34.989
and retaining these players illegally, signing

01:10:34.989 --> 01:10:37.789
players before they were 16 or 18 years old at

01:10:37.789 --> 01:10:41.930
some cases. But ultimately, he's starting to

01:10:41.930 --> 01:10:44.729
look around, and he's starting to look. the juggernaut

01:10:44.729 --> 01:10:47.010
that could be the big market New York teams and

01:10:47.010 --> 01:10:49.409
most specifically the Brooklyn Dodgers now in

01:10:49.409 --> 01:10:52.909
1942 of course the world is at war and things

01:10:52.909 --> 01:10:56.930
are changing in the landscape of ownership general

01:10:56.930 --> 01:10:59.890
managers offices are slowly starting to get bigger

01:10:59.890 --> 01:11:02.729
at this point and Larry McPhail was the owner

01:11:02.729 --> 01:11:05.710
and general managing partner principal president

01:11:05.710 --> 01:11:09.340
if you will of the Dodgers until 1942 when he

01:11:09.340 --> 01:11:11.579
went back to war. He served in World War I and

01:11:11.579 --> 01:11:14.600
in World War II, did McPhail, and thus doing

01:11:14.600 --> 01:11:17.920
so created a vacancy at the very top of the Brooklyn

01:11:17.920 --> 01:11:20.619
Dodgers organization. And that's where not only

01:11:20.619 --> 01:11:22.439
did Branch Rickey decide to jump ship from the

01:11:22.439 --> 01:11:24.579
Cardinals and go to the Brooklyn Dodgers, but

01:11:24.579 --> 01:11:26.199
there's another man that he was introduced to

01:11:26.199 --> 01:11:27.920
that also was at the top of this food chain,

01:11:28.119 --> 01:11:30.699
and that's Walter O'Malley. Yeah, it was kind

01:11:30.699 --> 01:11:33.920
of interesting. They later both become owners

01:11:33.920 --> 01:11:37.359
of the Dodgers, but in 1942, Branch Rickey was

01:11:37.359 --> 01:11:40.869
brought in. to help run the team and O'Malley

01:11:40.869 --> 01:11:44.270
was brought in as a lawyer he was a he was a

01:11:44.270 --> 01:11:46.729
representative that was he was a lawyer that

01:11:46.729 --> 01:11:49.470
was tied to other aspects of the baseball industry

01:11:49.470 --> 01:11:51.170
and it was kind of like hey we need to bring

01:11:51.170 --> 01:11:54.250
a lawyer in as well and yeah that's when they

01:11:54.250 --> 01:11:57.250
would first start working together which would

01:11:57.250 --> 01:12:00.250
lead to a interesting future with the Dodgers

01:12:00.250 --> 01:12:04.609
well during this time World War II is happening,

01:12:04.729 --> 01:12:07.470
obviously. Minor leagues get contracted. There's

01:12:07.470 --> 01:12:10.350
fewer players available. But Branch Rickey arrives

01:12:10.350 --> 01:12:12.850
to this Dodgers team that's supposed to be, you

01:12:12.850 --> 01:12:15.010
know, one of the richest teams in the land, right?

01:12:15.090 --> 01:12:18.770
And he just sees an aging, bad roster, a team

01:12:18.770 --> 01:12:20.850
that doesn't have a lot of investment in its

01:12:20.850 --> 01:12:23.119
minor league side. He then earned the nickname

01:12:23.119 --> 01:12:25.420
El Cheapo because of how much he relied on his

01:12:25.420 --> 01:12:28.720
minor league talent trying to restock the system

01:12:28.720 --> 01:12:31.239
while Walter O'Malley was getting ready to pay

01:12:31.239 --> 01:12:34.960
the checks once the war was over. So as the war

01:12:34.960 --> 01:12:38.380
ended and Ricky was able to retain some players

01:12:38.380 --> 01:12:41.760
that were talented but not great getting into

01:12:41.760 --> 01:12:44.159
the war, guys like Pee Wee Reese, who stuck around,

01:12:44.279 --> 01:12:47.159
Hugh Casey, who stuck around, the biggest thing

01:12:47.159 --> 01:12:49.689
that he also helped... create was a spring training

01:12:49.689 --> 01:12:52.890
program and this is where the Dodgers for years

01:12:52.890 --> 01:12:55.970
and years and years Vero Beach Florida Dodger

01:12:55.970 --> 01:12:59.069
Town going down south for spring training to

01:12:59.069 --> 01:13:01.989
get players ready for the season where they could

01:13:01.989 --> 01:13:05.170
have everybody in there at once on hand training

01:13:05.170 --> 01:13:07.590
beautiful weather everybody enjoyed Vero Beach

01:13:07.590 --> 01:13:10.810
it cost a lot of money to do so but all of a

01:13:10.810 --> 01:13:13.409
sudden teams saw this as a model saying we should

01:13:13.409 --> 01:13:15.630
copy this and Walter O'Malley was the one footing

01:13:15.630 --> 01:13:17.739
the check on all of this So an interesting thing

01:13:17.739 --> 01:13:20.479
is they weren't originally brought in as owners,

01:13:20.560 --> 01:13:24.260
but there was an ownership crisis among the Dodgers

01:13:24.260 --> 01:13:27.100
where one of their primary owners had died and

01:13:27.100 --> 01:13:29.460
one of their other owners had a bad experience

01:13:29.460 --> 01:13:32.020
before and saw this with other teams where there

01:13:32.020 --> 01:13:35.619
were teams owned by two people with 50 % stake.

01:13:35.739 --> 01:13:37.699
And that made it anytime they needed to vote

01:13:37.699 --> 01:13:40.340
on something, you could get into this gridlock.

01:13:40.560 --> 01:13:42.899
And so they came up with a really interesting

01:13:42.899 --> 01:13:46.789
strategy. I'm still the previous owner was still

01:13:46.789 --> 01:13:49.310
going to own 25 percent and he was going to sell

01:13:49.310 --> 01:13:51.989
75 percent of the team to three different people.

01:13:52.170 --> 01:13:55.890
It would be Branch Rickey, 25 percent, Walter

01:13:55.890 --> 01:13:59.649
O'Malley, 25 percent. And John Smith would cover

01:13:59.649 --> 01:14:03.250
the extra 25 percent with a little asterisk of

01:14:03.250 --> 01:14:06.050
whenever there was a vote. However, those three

01:14:06.050 --> 01:14:08.970
voted. So the two to one or it would have to

01:14:08.970 --> 01:14:11.970
be two to one or three to zero would be. how

01:14:11.970 --> 01:14:14.449
would the one vote for the 75 % share of the

01:14:14.449 --> 01:14:16.710
team would go? So you had this really interesting

01:14:16.710 --> 01:14:19.350
dynamic where you had Branch Rickey, who mostly

01:14:19.350 --> 01:14:22.890
managed the on -field. You had Walter O'Malley,

01:14:23.029 --> 01:14:25.510
who mostly managed the business. And a lot of

01:14:25.510 --> 01:14:28.390
times you had John Smith, who would be the one

01:14:28.390 --> 01:14:31.210
who would be the final vote sayer, vote getter.

01:14:31.369 --> 01:14:34.149
And the thing is, John Smith was more of a businessman

01:14:34.149 --> 01:14:37.770
than a baseball man. So it was a constant battle

01:14:37.770 --> 01:14:40.930
somewhat between Branch Rickey and Walter O'Malley.

01:14:41.390 --> 01:14:43.529
how to get their way. But Walter O'Malley was

01:14:43.529 --> 01:14:45.350
smart in one way. He knew Branch Rickey, knew

01:14:45.350 --> 01:14:48.050
the baseball better. So anytime it became to

01:14:48.050 --> 01:14:51.289
roster decisions, player signings, usually the

01:14:51.289 --> 01:14:53.510
vote went with Branch Rickey. When it came to

01:14:53.510 --> 01:14:56.369
business decisions, usually the vote went with

01:14:56.369 --> 01:14:58.409
Walter O'Malley. One of those baseball decisions

01:14:58.409 --> 01:15:00.930
that Branch Rickey made has been talked about

01:15:00.930 --> 01:15:03.289
plenty. We have talked about it before on this

01:15:03.289 --> 01:15:06.689
podcast as well. And that is the signing of Jackie

01:15:06.689 --> 01:15:10.029
Robinson. They were just out of the World Series.

01:15:10.210 --> 01:15:13.670
They finished in second place in 1946. They signed

01:15:13.670 --> 01:15:15.949
Jackie Robinson from the Kansas City Monarchs

01:15:15.949 --> 01:15:19.329
at the age of 27 and ultimately becomes the Rookie

01:15:19.329 --> 01:15:22.229
of the Year. They lose the World Series in 1947,

01:15:22.350 --> 01:15:25.510
but a whole new standard is created in Brooklyn.

01:15:26.119 --> 01:15:29.439
to lead the Dodgers as the first integrated team

01:15:29.439 --> 01:15:32.159
in baseball history. During this time, as the

01:15:32.159 --> 01:15:34.239
seeds were planted by Branch Rickey, they lose

01:15:34.239 --> 01:15:38.520
the World Series in 47 and in 49. But after Rickey

01:15:38.520 --> 01:15:41.880
departs in 1950, some of those minor leaguers

01:15:41.880 --> 01:15:43.520
that had come up, some of the players that he

01:15:43.520 --> 01:15:45.779
had invested in... On the way up, keep going

01:15:45.779 --> 01:15:48.180
back to the World Series. And then finally in

01:15:48.180 --> 01:15:50.960
1955, after Ricky is gone, but with a lot of

01:15:50.960 --> 01:15:53.199
players that he stockpiled and was able to help

01:15:53.199 --> 01:15:55.920
scout and sign guys like Duke Snyder and Roy

01:15:55.920 --> 01:16:00.199
Campanella, that finally in 1955, the Dodgers

01:16:00.199 --> 01:16:02.979
do win the World Series once again. However,

01:16:03.100 --> 01:16:08.279
in this time, 48, 49, 50, the Dodgers are good.

01:16:08.560 --> 01:16:12.800
They are winning multiple pennants, but yet the...

01:16:13.020 --> 01:16:15.600
relationship between Ricky and O'Malley is getting

01:16:15.600 --> 01:16:18.659
frayed. And O'Malley's reputation as a dealmaker,

01:16:18.880 --> 01:16:22.579
as the man that was really in charge, started

01:16:22.579 --> 01:16:25.479
to really start to take hold here. And O'Malley

01:16:25.479 --> 01:16:27.300
was not only in charge of the Dodgers starting

01:16:27.300 --> 01:16:29.859
maybe in 1950, he was really in charge of all

01:16:29.859 --> 01:16:32.000
of baseball for the next maybe 20, 25 years,

01:16:32.100 --> 01:16:35.560
even during commissioners. And he had his hand

01:16:35.560 --> 01:16:37.119
on the pulse maybe more than any other owner

01:16:37.119 --> 01:16:39.930
during this time. Yeah, and it's the Jackie Robinson

01:16:39.930 --> 01:16:43.069
story is legendary. And you've seen the movie

01:16:43.069 --> 01:16:46.789
42, I'm guessing. Yes, Dom. So who played Branch

01:16:46.789 --> 01:16:50.149
Rickey? Harrison Ford. Harrison Ford. Who played

01:16:50.149 --> 01:16:53.770
Walter O'Malley? Who did? Nobody did. They did

01:16:53.770 --> 01:16:56.989
not have Walter O'Malley in the movie 42. If

01:16:56.989 --> 01:16:58.649
you go to the Jackie Robinson story, which came

01:16:58.649 --> 01:17:01.770
out in 1951, they had a Branch Rickey character.

01:17:01.949 --> 01:17:05.350
They did not have Walter O'Malley. Now, the question

01:17:05.350 --> 01:17:08.220
is. Branch Rickey owned 25 % of the team. Walter

01:17:08.220 --> 01:17:11.039
O'Malley owned 25%. They didn't have John Smith.

01:17:11.399 --> 01:17:15.000
Why is Branch Rickey the one that's always depicted

01:17:15.000 --> 01:17:18.359
when he had equal say to the other ones? And

01:17:18.359 --> 01:17:21.619
really, it's because it was Branch Rickey's baby.

01:17:21.720 --> 01:17:25.060
He did the baseball things. But once Branch Rickey

01:17:25.060 --> 01:17:28.920
left the Dodgers, if you talk to Jackie Robinson

01:17:28.920 --> 01:17:31.079
on his opinions of Walter O'Malley, he did not

01:17:31.079 --> 01:17:34.000
like Walter O'Malley. He said, Jackie Robinson

01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:35.779
said, I never had any real troubles with the

01:17:35.779 --> 01:17:38.100
Dodger management until Mr. Ricky left. After

01:17:38.100 --> 01:17:41.340
that, trouble of one kind or another became routine.

01:17:41.680 --> 01:17:43.899
O'Malley had a burning dislike for Ricky people,

01:17:44.039 --> 01:17:48.819
and I certainly was one. And what ended up happening

01:17:48.819 --> 01:17:51.079
is around the end of Jackie Robinson's career,

01:17:51.319 --> 01:17:54.539
he was much more outspoken about civil rights

01:17:54.539 --> 01:17:57.539
issues. He was much more outspoken about player

01:17:57.539 --> 01:18:00.600
issues. He's one of the few people that testified.

01:18:01.369 --> 01:18:05.329
at Curt Flood's trial. And Branch Rickey did

01:18:05.329 --> 01:18:08.710
not like that. If there's three things that Branch

01:18:08.710 --> 01:18:11.569
Rickey has, he's a very simple man to understand.

01:18:11.729 --> 01:18:14.010
If there's three things that kind of drive every

01:18:14.010 --> 01:18:16.989
decision he does. Does it help the business and

01:18:16.989 --> 01:18:20.569
the brand? Then I'll do it. Does it give me more

01:18:20.569 --> 01:18:23.510
money or more power? Then I'll do it. And anything

01:18:23.510 --> 01:18:25.850
that hurts the business or the brand, I'm very

01:18:25.850 --> 01:18:28.930
much against. And O'Malley was very much against

01:18:28.930 --> 01:18:31.229
Jackie Robinson making these statements. And

01:18:31.229 --> 01:18:34.630
he had a very antagonistic relationship with

01:18:34.630 --> 01:18:37.010
him. O'Malley would accuse Robinson of being

01:18:37.010 --> 01:18:39.329
a prima donna for missing spring training exhibition

01:18:39.329 --> 01:18:42.329
games because of minor injuries. Jackie Robinson's

01:18:42.329 --> 01:18:45.289
wife, Rachel Robinson, said bringing Jack into

01:18:45.289 --> 01:18:47.210
organized baseball was not the greatest thing

01:18:47.210 --> 01:18:49.989
Mr. Rickey did for him. In my opinion, it was

01:18:49.989 --> 01:18:52.560
this. Having brought Jack in, he stuck by him

01:18:52.560 --> 01:18:54.779
to the very end. He understood Jack. He never

01:18:54.779 --> 01:18:57.340
listened to the ugly little rumors like those

01:18:57.340 --> 01:18:59.579
you have mentioned to us today. If there was

01:18:59.579 --> 01:19:01.420
something wrong, he would go to Jack and ask

01:19:01.420 --> 01:19:03.699
him about it. He would talk to Jack and they

01:19:03.699 --> 01:19:05.600
would get to the heart of it like men with a

01:19:05.600 --> 01:19:07.579
mutual respect for the abilities and feelings

01:19:07.579 --> 01:19:10.760
of each other. So really, Walter O'Malley was

01:19:10.760 --> 01:19:13.479
the one that coached Jackie Robinson, brought

01:19:13.479 --> 01:19:16.079
him in, supported him. Walter O'Malley was not

01:19:16.079 --> 01:19:19.119
that guy. And in the end, Robinson believed O'Malley's

01:19:19.119 --> 01:19:21.859
attitude towards me was viciously antagonistic.

01:19:21.880 --> 01:19:24.979
I was not O'Malley's kind of Negro. That was

01:19:24.979 --> 01:19:27.880
the quote he said about it. So the question is,

01:19:27.899 --> 01:19:29.520
Walter O'Malley doesn't like anything that rocks

01:19:29.520 --> 01:19:33.239
the boat. Why would Walter O'Malley approved

01:19:33.239 --> 01:19:35.739
Branch Rickey going after and signing Jackie

01:19:35.739 --> 01:19:38.319
Robinson, which seems very out of character?

01:19:38.880 --> 01:19:41.500
Well, those three things I said, does it help

01:19:41.500 --> 01:19:44.699
the brand? Does it give him more power either

01:19:44.699 --> 01:19:46.659
over the team or the league? And does it not

01:19:46.659 --> 01:19:49.819
hurt the brand? Well, this was Branch Rickey's

01:19:49.819 --> 01:19:52.939
thing. If it failed, if the Jackie Robinson experiment,

01:19:53.159 --> 01:19:57.319
God forbid, failed, Walter O'Malley would have

01:19:57.319 --> 01:19:59.840
a way to force Branch Rickey out. If it succeeded,

01:20:00.199 --> 01:20:02.020
then it would be good for the bottom line for

01:20:02.020 --> 01:20:04.880
the Dodgers. So it was a win -win for him. It's

01:20:04.880 --> 01:20:07.060
really hard, especially when you look later at

01:20:07.060 --> 01:20:09.689
Walter O'Malley, what he's known for. moving

01:20:09.689 --> 01:20:12.369
the Dodgers out of Brooklyn is a lot of people

01:20:12.369 --> 01:20:15.569
go and also moving into Los Angeles into a community

01:20:15.569 --> 01:20:19.390
that had to get displaced. We'll get more on

01:20:19.390 --> 01:20:20.289
that in a minute. Not just displaced, flat out

01:20:20.289 --> 01:20:23.189
removed, flat out completely obliterated from

01:20:23.189 --> 01:20:25.090
the face of the earth. I mean, there are people

01:20:25.090 --> 01:20:28.329
still protesting the occupation of Chavez Ravine

01:20:28.329 --> 01:20:31.289
where Dodger Stadium still sits today. It's a

01:20:31.289 --> 01:20:33.090
very complicated story, but a lot of people bring

01:20:33.090 --> 01:20:36.390
up, was Walter O'Malley a racist? You know, he

01:20:36.390 --> 01:20:39.579
took, he... was fine with the Dodgers being in

01:20:39.579 --> 01:20:41.619
Brooklyn until all the white people moved out

01:20:41.619 --> 01:20:43.760
to Long Island and it became a minority community.

01:20:44.079 --> 01:20:47.140
He was OK with Jackie Robinson, but was antagonistic

01:20:47.140 --> 01:20:50.500
with him. And then he also had that site in Chavez

01:20:50.500 --> 01:20:52.979
Ravine. And in reading everything I've read,

01:20:53.079 --> 01:20:55.600
I just go, ultimately, he's a businessman. That

01:20:55.600 --> 01:20:57.619
is what makes his decisions, because he made

01:20:57.619 --> 01:21:01.140
also some decisions that were actually very favorable.

01:21:01.180 --> 01:21:04.600
Again, he voted for Jackie Robinson to for Branch

01:21:04.600 --> 01:21:07.180
Rickey to sign Jackie Robinson. It becomes very.

01:21:07.790 --> 01:21:10.850
Very complicated on Walter O'Malley. And for

01:21:10.850 --> 01:21:13.750
O'Malley, when he's trying to figure out how

01:21:13.750 --> 01:21:16.229
can he retain power of the Dodgers, as him and

01:21:16.229 --> 01:21:17.529
Ricky are starting to have this falling out,

01:21:17.590 --> 01:21:20.050
you've got to remember, as O'Malley came into

01:21:20.050 --> 01:21:22.170
the Dodgers, they were on the verge of bankruptcy.

01:21:22.609 --> 01:21:24.789
He's there to be his lawyer. He's there to be

01:21:24.789 --> 01:21:28.180
their sort of... Business and balancing the books

01:21:28.180 --> 01:21:30.359
while simultaneously bringing in Branch Rickey

01:21:30.359 --> 01:21:32.960
to say, you handle the baseball, I got the business,

01:21:33.159 --> 01:21:35.100
he's the lawyer. So he's seeing where all the

01:21:35.100 --> 01:21:37.380
checks are going right now. And he's trying to

01:21:37.380 --> 01:21:39.600
find a way to say, okay, how do I get all the

01:21:39.600 --> 01:21:41.579
power possible? He doesn't like Branch Rickey

01:21:41.579 --> 01:21:44.899
as we've talked about too. And one of the controversies

01:21:44.899 --> 01:21:48.939
of 1950, as they keep renewing Branch Rickey

01:21:48.939 --> 01:21:51.739
on a one -year deal after his initial five -year

01:21:51.739 --> 01:21:54.770
deal when he first came in 1942. 48 is on a one

01:21:54.770 --> 01:21:57.409
-year deal. 49 is on a one -year deal. Then finally,

01:21:57.510 --> 01:22:00.649
Ricky's like, enough. This team's worth triple

01:22:00.649 --> 01:22:03.069
than what it was when I first arrived. You are

01:22:03.069 --> 01:22:05.329
going to the World Series almost every other

01:22:05.329 --> 01:22:07.869
year. We have a great farm system. Why are you

01:22:07.869 --> 01:22:10.090
trying to undermine me? Why are you trying to

01:22:10.090 --> 01:22:13.399
find a way out? Branch is thinking, all right,

01:22:13.420 --> 01:22:15.279
I need to sell my stake in the team. I need to

01:22:15.279 --> 01:22:17.579
get the heck out of here. I need to sell my 25%.

01:22:17.579 --> 01:22:20.060
And O'Malley was thinking, there's no way you're

01:22:20.060 --> 01:22:22.140
going to find a buyer for that amount of cash,

01:22:22.319 --> 01:22:24.460
for what we're worth. And he found multiple buyers,

01:22:24.560 --> 01:22:26.560
in fact. And the biggest one that came about

01:22:26.560 --> 01:22:30.619
was a man named Bill Zeckendorf. Bill Zeckendorf

01:22:30.619 --> 01:22:34.289
was... offering O'Malley, or excuse me, offering

01:22:34.289 --> 01:22:36.930
Ricky to buy the team. O'Malley was trying to

01:22:36.930 --> 01:22:39.050
call his bluff. There's no way this guy is able

01:22:39.050 --> 01:22:41.550
to buy. And in doing so, O'Malley actually paid

01:22:41.550 --> 01:22:45.569
Zeckendorf to not purchase a bid on the team.

01:22:45.649 --> 01:22:51.010
He paid Zeckendorf $700 ,000 to not buy Branch

01:22:51.010 --> 01:22:54.750
Ricky's stake in the team. That $700 ,000, by

01:22:54.750 --> 01:22:57.149
the way, guess where it went? Where is that?

01:22:57.529 --> 01:22:59.449
It goes to Branch Rickey. Branch Rickey had a

01:22:59.449 --> 01:23:01.710
bluff the whole time. He knew that he was going

01:23:01.710 --> 01:23:03.550
to get rich off of this one way or another. Somebody

01:23:03.550 --> 01:23:06.050
was going to buy his stake in the team. Zeckendorf

01:23:06.050 --> 01:23:08.229
was a bluff. He gave him the majority of the

01:23:08.229 --> 01:23:10.810
cash. Ultimately, though, O'Malley saw this as

01:23:10.810 --> 01:23:12.409
a shot across the bow, saying, wait a minute.

01:23:12.829 --> 01:23:14.670
He really is trying to sell this team. He really

01:23:14.670 --> 01:23:17.630
is trying to get out of this. So he creates a

01:23:17.630 --> 01:23:22.050
fake resignation letter. And because of O'Malley's...

01:23:22.380 --> 01:23:24.739
Power and the way that the press covered the

01:23:24.739 --> 01:23:28.479
Dodgers at this time. The old man and the Mahatma.

01:23:28.600 --> 01:23:31.539
There is obviously some infighting here. But

01:23:31.539 --> 01:23:33.260
I want to read you this statement that Walter

01:23:33.260 --> 01:23:36.039
O'Malley gave to the writers at his own personal

01:23:36.039 --> 01:23:38.659
office. Not the Dodgers office. Because he knew

01:23:38.659 --> 01:23:41.180
that it would get out if Branch Rickey. This

01:23:41.180 --> 01:23:43.260
is on his own letterhead. This is not Dodgers

01:23:43.260 --> 01:23:46.250
letterhead. It is very sketchy. I quote. I would

01:23:46.250 --> 01:23:47.789
like to say for the record that over the seven

01:23:47.789 --> 01:23:50.270
years that I've been associated with Mr. Rickey,

01:23:50.369 --> 01:23:52.770
I have developed the warmest possible feelings

01:23:52.770 --> 01:23:55.409
for him as a man. I've admired his intense devotion

01:23:55.409 --> 01:23:57.590
to his family. I do not know of anyone who can

01:23:57.590 --> 01:23:59.470
approach Mr. Rickey in the realm of executive

01:23:59.470 --> 01:24:02.810
ability in baseball. I am terribly sorry and

01:24:02.810 --> 01:24:06.170
hurt personally that we now have to face this

01:24:06.170 --> 01:24:10.909
resignation. Thus ends Branch Rickey's time running

01:24:10.909 --> 01:24:13.989
the Brooklyn Dodgers. Pittsburgh says, okay,

01:24:14.149 --> 01:24:15.970
well, if you don't want him, we'll take him to

01:24:15.970 --> 01:24:17.970
a multi -year deal. He goes to the Pittsburgh

01:24:17.970 --> 01:24:20.189
Pirates, does not have nearly the same level

01:24:20.189 --> 01:24:22.489
of success that he had with the Dodgers, but

01:24:22.489 --> 01:24:24.649
now Walter O'Malley got what he ultimately wanted.

01:24:24.770 --> 01:24:27.729
He bought out Branch Rickey. He now owns and

01:24:27.729 --> 01:24:30.689
runs the Brooklyn Dodgers, and eminent domain

01:24:30.689 --> 01:24:33.529
is on the horizon, and O'Malley is going to run

01:24:33.529 --> 01:24:36.850
things how he wants to. Yeah, and also in the

01:24:36.850 --> 01:24:39.649
bidding process, so Walter O'Malley, because

01:24:39.649 --> 01:24:42.850
he was a partner, he always had the right. to

01:24:42.850 --> 01:24:46.109
outbid whatever the current bid was. And I think

01:24:46.109 --> 01:24:49.229
Walter O'Malley's initial offer for Branch Rickey's

01:24:49.229 --> 01:24:52.630
stake was like $300 ,000, which was shockingly

01:24:52.630 --> 01:24:55.550
low. And again, he didn't think anyone would

01:24:55.550 --> 01:24:58.289
bid. Branch Rickey eventually did get another

01:24:58.289 --> 01:25:01.689
bid for a million dollars. So Walter O'Malley

01:25:01.689 --> 01:25:04.289
had to go out, get his million dollars, and I

01:25:04.289 --> 01:25:06.430
think he bid a million and like five, a million

01:25:06.430 --> 01:25:08.989
dollars and five to finally get it. But it still

01:25:08.989 --> 01:25:13.479
tripled the price he had to pay. for his share

01:25:13.479 --> 01:25:16.399
in the Dodgers. And then there was a rumor that

01:25:16.399 --> 01:25:19.960
after Branch Rickey left, Walter O'Malley would

01:25:19.960 --> 01:25:23.819
issue a $1 fine to anyone who mentioned Branch

01:25:23.819 --> 01:25:27.039
Rickey's name in the clubhouse. So he could be

01:25:27.039 --> 01:25:31.239
a spiteful man. But O'Malley became the man in

01:25:31.239 --> 01:25:34.260
charge in 1950 for the Dodgers, and that would

01:25:34.260 --> 01:25:36.520
set in the motion one of the biggest changes

01:25:36.520 --> 01:25:39.140
in baseball. Because there's, we've mentioned

01:25:39.140 --> 01:25:41.520
this before, 1950s was a bit of a sea change.

01:25:41.760 --> 01:25:45.619
First, you had these three cities that had multiple

01:25:45.619 --> 01:25:48.699
teams that probably couldn't support multiple

01:25:48.699 --> 01:25:52.319
teams, Boston, Philadelphia, and St. Louis. And

01:25:52.319 --> 01:25:54.279
what ended up happening is in the mid -50s, three

01:25:54.279 --> 01:25:56.500
teams ended up moving away from those towns.

01:25:56.560 --> 01:25:58.920
We talked about Philadelphia Athletics already.

01:25:59.119 --> 01:26:01.659
There was a St. Louis Browns that moved away

01:26:01.659 --> 01:26:04.300
to Baltimore. And there was the Boston Braves

01:26:04.300 --> 01:26:07.289
who ended up moving to Milwaukee. But the biggest

01:26:07.289 --> 01:26:10.550
move would be the doing of Walter O'Malley. And

01:26:10.550 --> 01:26:13.369
that would be two of New York teams, two New

01:26:13.369 --> 01:26:15.890
York teams, the New York Giants and the Brooklyn

01:26:15.890 --> 01:26:18.670
Dodgers, would both move out to the West Coast.

01:26:19.170 --> 01:26:22.729
Now, why did this happen? Again, Walter O'Malley

01:26:22.729 --> 01:26:26.369
is a businessman at heart. And they were losing

01:26:26.369 --> 01:26:29.529
attendance in the city of New York. All of the

01:26:29.529 --> 01:26:31.710
people that went to games were moving out to

01:26:31.710 --> 01:26:34.750
Long Island. And there was a city planner named

01:26:34.750 --> 01:26:38.989
Robert Moses. who was not a fan of public transportation,

01:26:39.270 --> 01:26:42.250
was a fan of highways, was a fan of everyone

01:26:42.250 --> 01:26:45.750
should move by highway. And Ebbets Field, where

01:26:45.750 --> 01:26:49.090
the Dodgers played, had a total of 300 parking

01:26:49.090 --> 01:26:53.090
spots. They weren't near a train line. They had

01:26:53.090 --> 01:26:56.689
300 parking spots and attendance cratered. We'll

01:26:56.689 --> 01:26:58.689
see this when you look at the Dodgers attendance

01:26:58.689 --> 01:27:02.229
in the late 40s and early 50s. They were near

01:27:02.229 --> 01:27:05.250
the 2 million. When they won that World Series

01:27:05.250 --> 01:27:08.050
in 1955, what do you think their attendance was?

01:27:08.170 --> 01:27:09.989
Do you think it was 2 million? I mean, I would

01:27:09.989 --> 01:27:11.529
hope it crossed 2 million when we won the World

01:27:11.529 --> 01:27:14.670
Series. No, it was 1 .4 million. So they were

01:27:14.670 --> 01:27:17.210
losing attendance even with the team being good

01:27:17.210 --> 01:27:20.770
on the field. And Robert Moses, I don't know

01:27:20.770 --> 01:27:22.489
if you know anything about Robert Moses. He's

01:27:22.489 --> 01:27:26.710
called the power broker. There is a very interesting

01:27:26.710 --> 01:27:29.869
book on him. But he was basically the most powerful

01:27:29.869 --> 01:27:33.090
man in New York. for about a 60 -year period.

01:27:33.210 --> 01:27:36.529
Even though he wasn't the mayor, he held 13,

01:27:36.670 --> 01:27:39.189
I think, different positions within the New York

01:27:39.189 --> 01:27:42.850
City government. City planner, city engineer,

01:27:43.109 --> 01:27:45.710
all these bridges you see in New York, all these

01:27:45.710 --> 01:27:48.550
aqueducts, all of these highways that you have

01:27:48.550 --> 01:27:51.189
going out to Long Island, that was Robert Moses'

01:27:51.470 --> 01:27:53.909
doing. Isn't Robert Moses who we have to thank

01:27:53.909 --> 01:27:56.289
for how impossible it is to get onto Long Island

01:27:56.289 --> 01:27:59.229
from Manhattan, given really the only way you

01:27:59.229 --> 01:28:03.189
can is the LIRR? Yeah, yes, yes. And there's

01:28:03.189 --> 01:28:04.890
there's even little things, though, like we don't

01:28:04.890 --> 01:28:08.250
have buses out to there aren't buses out to Long

01:28:08.250 --> 01:28:10.970
Island because he hated buses. So the overpasses

01:28:10.970 --> 01:28:13.229
they built on the highway were just short enough

01:28:13.229 --> 01:28:15.430
where a bus couldn't fit. Like he literally was

01:28:15.430 --> 01:28:18.470
very much against public transportation. But

01:28:18.470 --> 01:28:21.409
the problem for O'Malley now is he's got a stadium

01:28:21.409 --> 01:28:23.890
in the middle of Brooklyn that has 300 parking

01:28:23.890 --> 01:28:27.250
spots, has no public transportation. He needs

01:28:27.250 --> 01:28:29.460
a new stadium. And who do you think he has to

01:28:29.460 --> 01:28:31.140
go through to get a new stadium in New York?

01:28:31.239 --> 01:28:34.300
Who controls all the land? It's Robert Moses.

01:28:34.539 --> 01:28:37.779
And Robert Moses says, no, like Walter O'Malley

01:28:37.779 --> 01:28:40.399
wanted this one spot in the southwest side of

01:28:40.399 --> 01:28:42.539
Brooklyn. And Robert Moses says, no, we're going

01:28:42.539 --> 01:28:44.479
to put you in the middle of flushing, you know,

01:28:44.500 --> 01:28:46.659
in Queens. Yeah, the Brooklyn Dodgers are going

01:28:46.659 --> 01:28:50.000
to play in Queens. So Walter O'Malley was not

01:28:50.000 --> 01:28:51.760
a fan of that. And maybe it started as a bluff.

01:28:52.189 --> 01:28:54.109
Maybe it started as a bluff of like, oh, Robert

01:28:54.109 --> 01:28:56.489
Moses, you aren't going to give us our stadium.

01:28:57.090 --> 01:29:00.189
I'm in talks with L .A. right now. And what started

01:29:00.189 --> 01:29:04.090
as a bluff quickly, I think over the course of

01:29:04.090 --> 01:29:07.069
six months, turned into an actual, hey, we're

01:29:07.069 --> 01:29:09.270
going to do this. And a big thing of that is

01:29:09.270 --> 01:29:11.710
the Boston Braves moving to Milwaukee. Milwaukee

01:29:11.710 --> 01:29:15.970
was smashing attendance records. They had a.

01:29:16.480 --> 01:29:19.119
ballpark that was kind of on the outskirts of

01:29:19.119 --> 01:29:21.939
the downtown area that had a large parking lot

01:29:21.939 --> 01:29:24.140
and people could go there. And Milwaukee was

01:29:24.140 --> 01:29:27.239
putting up 2 .7, 2 .8 million. I was just talking

01:29:27.239 --> 01:29:29.140
about the Dodgers winning the World Series with

01:29:29.140 --> 01:29:33.579
1 .4 million. So the first eight years of the

01:29:33.579 --> 01:29:36.399
Milwaukee Braves is arguably one of the most

01:29:36.399 --> 01:29:39.539
successful periods as far as getting people through

01:29:39.539 --> 01:29:41.840
the turnstiles. And Walter O'Malley took notice.

01:29:42.140 --> 01:29:44.239
We talked about this in the last episode. Bowie

01:29:44.239 --> 01:29:48.439
Kuhn was... On the legal grounds for some of

01:29:48.439 --> 01:29:51.239
the representatives on the American League saying,

01:29:51.359 --> 01:29:53.779
oh, or I should say the National League trying

01:29:53.779 --> 01:29:55.720
to say, oh, well, you know, we can't compete

01:29:55.720 --> 01:29:57.760
with the Milwaukee's, you know, given how great

01:29:57.760 --> 01:29:59.739
they are at the gate. Because at this time, the

01:29:59.739 --> 01:30:02.680
gate is what really mattered of how to make money

01:30:02.680 --> 01:30:04.420
and how teams are viewing the health of their

01:30:04.420 --> 01:30:07.640
franchises. Like the fact that teams feared the

01:30:07.640 --> 01:30:10.619
city of Milwaukee, and it was the reason, not

01:30:10.619 --> 01:30:12.680
saying the sole reason, but one of the reasons

01:30:12.680 --> 01:30:16.430
that. The Dodgers decided to leave Brooklyn,

01:30:16.609 --> 01:30:19.489
of all places, to go to Los Angeles. And the

01:30:19.489 --> 01:30:23.069
red carpet being rolled out for the Dodgers in

01:30:23.069 --> 01:30:26.289
Los Angeles, to LA's credit, they wanted it,

01:30:26.310 --> 01:30:28.090
and they gave them the money to do so, which

01:30:28.090 --> 01:30:31.279
is a trend started by Walter O'Malley. He didn't

01:30:31.279 --> 01:30:33.500
get what he wanted from Robert Moses. He wanted

01:30:33.500 --> 01:30:35.439
to go to Los Angeles to try to create his own.

01:30:35.479 --> 01:30:36.680
And now he's not the only one, of course, with

01:30:36.680 --> 01:30:39.239
the Giants going to San Francisco. But the point

01:30:39.239 --> 01:30:41.520
being, this is where the antitrust really comes

01:30:41.520 --> 01:30:44.619
in to shine. Because there's monopolistic practices

01:30:44.619 --> 01:30:46.899
that they're allowed to maintain saying, we don't

01:30:46.899 --> 01:30:49.880
have to follow bids from multiple teams. We don't

01:30:49.880 --> 01:30:52.800
have to go through government bureaucracies and

01:30:52.800 --> 01:30:54.920
saying, well, if this gets approved and this

01:30:54.920 --> 01:30:57.109
gets approved, no, no, no. I can do whatever

01:30:57.109 --> 01:30:58.970
I want. I think my team can't handle Brooklyn.

01:30:59.109 --> 01:31:00.670
I'm going to go to Los Angeles because there

01:31:00.670 --> 01:31:04.670
is antitrust exemptions that allow the Brooklyn

01:31:04.670 --> 01:31:07.710
Dodgers, as great of a franchise as it was, to

01:31:07.710 --> 01:31:10.289
up and leave on the drop of a hat. Any franchise

01:31:10.289 --> 01:31:13.550
today can decide, yep, up, leave. Nothing you

01:31:13.550 --> 01:31:15.970
can do about it thanks to antitrust. On top of

01:31:15.970 --> 01:31:19.000
that. It was a good setup for O'Malley. When

01:31:19.000 --> 01:31:21.220
they moved to LA, yeah, their attendance went

01:31:21.220 --> 01:31:24.100
through the roof. Even today, the Dodgers still

01:31:24.100 --> 01:31:26.439
have the highest capacity stadium and the highest

01:31:26.439 --> 01:31:28.859
attendance in the league. And it's largely because

01:31:28.859 --> 01:31:31.439
they built Dodger Stadium. Now, you said one

01:31:31.439 --> 01:31:34.920
thing earlier that I do have to somewhat clear

01:31:34.920 --> 01:31:39.300
the record on is the Chavez Ravine story is a

01:31:39.300 --> 01:31:41.359
lot more complicated than people give it credit

01:31:41.359 --> 01:31:44.369
for. But did you know before Walter O'Malley

01:31:44.369 --> 01:31:46.770
scouted out in a helicopter to pick where the

01:31:46.770 --> 01:31:50.170
stadium was, Chavez Ravine had already been 98

01:31:50.170 --> 01:31:54.189
% of the families had already been left the area

01:31:54.189 --> 01:31:56.630
because they were being forced out due to a public

01:31:56.630 --> 01:32:01.029
housing project in 1951. By the time Walter O'Malley

01:32:01.029 --> 01:32:03.689
came around, there was only, I think, a dozen

01:32:03.689 --> 01:32:06.430
or so families left in Chavez Ravine. So while

01:32:06.430 --> 01:32:08.770
he did force them out, it wasn't. It wasn't the

01:32:08.770 --> 01:32:10.869
entire community. That had already happened in

01:32:10.869 --> 01:32:13.869
1951. And the reason there wasn't public housing

01:32:13.869 --> 01:32:18.329
then is kind of crazy. The red scare. The city

01:32:18.329 --> 01:32:20.970
planner in L .A. that had set up this public

01:32:20.970 --> 01:32:24.050
housing project that had eventually kicked out

01:32:24.050 --> 01:32:26.390
thousands of families out of the Chavez Ravine

01:32:26.390 --> 01:32:29.250
area was all of a sudden outed as a communist.

01:32:29.800 --> 01:32:32.060
And public housing was viewed as a socialist

01:32:32.060 --> 01:32:35.319
communist plan. So it was all canceled in 1952

01:32:35.319 --> 01:32:37.619
after they kicked all these families out. It

01:32:37.619 --> 01:32:40.680
was one of the most, that's local government

01:32:40.680 --> 01:32:42.979
for you, I guess. It's amazing how all these,

01:32:42.979 --> 01:32:46.319
you know, leaning right owners really hate socialism

01:32:46.319 --> 01:32:48.560
until it comes to, oh, hey, give me 500 million

01:32:48.560 --> 01:32:52.119
dollars to build this ballpark. Yeah. And Walter

01:32:52.119 --> 01:32:54.380
O'Malley going there seeing what's basically.

01:32:55.180 --> 01:32:57.100
Almost an abandoned neighborhood at this point.

01:32:57.199 --> 01:32:59.880
And it's not far from downtown L .A. It's about

01:32:59.880 --> 01:33:03.020
the same distance from downtown L .A. as Milwaukee

01:33:03.020 --> 01:33:05.000
County Stadium where the Milwaukee Braves are

01:33:05.000 --> 01:33:07.439
playing is to downtown Milwaukee, like just on

01:33:07.439 --> 01:33:09.819
the outskirts. But as anybody who spent time

01:33:09.819 --> 01:33:12.720
in Los Angeles knows. That doesn't mean anything

01:33:12.720 --> 01:33:15.060
when it comes to the roads and the freeways.

01:33:15.060 --> 01:33:17.619
As somebody who has stayed in downtown Los Angeles

01:33:17.619 --> 01:33:20.739
for Dodger Stadium playoff games, it takes us

01:33:20.739 --> 01:33:23.840
30 minutes on average just to go from the exit

01:33:23.840 --> 01:33:26.819
of the TV compound to the exit of Dodger Stadium.

01:33:27.000 --> 01:33:29.640
It is freaking impossible to get in and out of

01:33:29.640 --> 01:33:33.779
that place. But, yeah. But for O'Malley, in the

01:33:33.779 --> 01:33:36.520
end, it was a success. And what it also did since...

01:33:36.750 --> 01:33:38.869
whatever team makes the most money, has the most

01:33:38.869 --> 01:33:41.069
money, can sign the best players, and eventually

01:33:41.069 --> 01:33:43.970
becomes the most powerful owner. Walter O'Malley

01:33:43.970 --> 01:33:47.310
was basically, ever since they moved to Los Angeles,

01:33:47.630 --> 01:33:50.109
basically ran the National League. Yeah, they

01:33:50.109 --> 01:33:51.670
had a National League president. Yeah, there

01:33:51.670 --> 01:33:54.250
was a commissioner of baseball, but it was Walter

01:33:54.250 --> 01:33:57.470
O'Malley. I talked about Bowie Coon last episode,

01:33:57.510 --> 01:33:59.430
and I was kind of wondering, how did he stick

01:33:59.430 --> 01:34:02.930
around for 14 years when a lot of the new owners

01:34:02.930 --> 01:34:06.460
hated him? A lot of the things he did didn't

01:34:06.460 --> 01:34:09.100
end up working as far as combating the MLBPA.

01:34:09.359 --> 01:34:11.640
It's because he was Walter O'Malley's man. Walter

01:34:11.640 --> 01:34:13.119
O'Malley was the guy who said, hey, let's hire

01:34:13.119 --> 01:34:15.619
this Bowie Coon guy. He'll do exactly what I

01:34:15.619 --> 01:34:19.500
say. You know, and it really, to give you an

01:34:19.500 --> 01:34:22.100
example. So one of the big things that happened

01:34:22.100 --> 01:34:25.960
later was expansion. And the American League

01:34:25.960 --> 01:34:29.340
decided to put a franchise in Los Angeles. Walter

01:34:29.340 --> 01:34:31.579
O'Malley was not a fan of that. The Los Angeles

01:34:31.579 --> 01:34:34.359
Angels were coming to town. And Walter O'Malley

01:34:34.359 --> 01:34:37.420
was like, hey, that's my territory. Yes, I'm

01:34:37.420 --> 01:34:39.399
making a lot of money with Dodger Stadium, but

01:34:39.399 --> 01:34:42.000
that's my territory. It's the American League.

01:34:42.020 --> 01:34:43.699
It shouldn't matter. The American League should

01:34:43.699 --> 01:34:44.819
be able to do it. No, we're going to do it anyway.

01:34:45.119 --> 01:34:47.420
But Walter O'Malley was such a powerful figure

01:34:47.420 --> 01:34:50.420
that he was able to get it. The owner of the

01:34:50.420 --> 01:34:55.260
Angels, Gene Autry, would have to, one, pay the

01:34:55.260 --> 01:34:59.880
PCL. Los Angeles Angels, who the Dodgers had

01:34:59.880 --> 01:35:01.640
to pay because they were encroaching on their

01:35:01.640 --> 01:35:05.720
territory. The new Angels would have to pay Walter

01:35:05.720 --> 01:35:08.500
O'Malley in order to make up for the money he

01:35:08.500 --> 01:35:10.579
paid to the old Angels, basically saying, if

01:35:10.579 --> 01:35:12.340
you're coming to this territory, you owe some

01:35:12.340 --> 01:35:15.539
of the fines as well. Also, Angels, you can't

01:35:15.539 --> 01:35:18.060
have a new stadium. You're going to play in Wrigley

01:35:18.060 --> 01:35:20.039
Field. No, not the Chicago Wrigley Field. There

01:35:20.039 --> 01:35:22.640
was a Los Angeles Wrigley Field, which was not

01:35:22.640 --> 01:35:25.670
up to snuff. When it came to a major league ballpark,

01:35:25.789 --> 01:35:28.569
the Dodgers were playing in the Coliseum, this

01:35:28.569 --> 01:35:31.710
gigantic stadium with that can fit it to a bunch

01:35:31.710 --> 01:35:34.069
of people. Wrigley field was this small little

01:35:34.069 --> 01:35:36.750
dinky thing that could hold what? 18 ,000 people.

01:35:37.250 --> 01:35:39.949
If that, but the funniest photos and I'll put

01:35:39.949 --> 01:35:42.390
this in the sub stack to the Dodgers playing

01:35:42.390 --> 01:35:46.090
at LA Memorial Coliseum. it's a joke imagine

01:35:46.090 --> 01:35:48.689
putting a baseball field on the coliseum how

01:35:48.689 --> 01:35:50.970
would you try to orient it what's the best way

01:35:50.970 --> 01:35:54.510
on a football field to put a baseball field across

01:35:54.510 --> 01:35:56.149
it how would you think to do it right you would

01:35:56.149 --> 01:35:59.609
again this is a fixed coliseum bowl there's only

01:35:59.609 --> 01:36:02.109
so many ways you can do it so what they did was

01:36:02.109 --> 01:36:06.569
it was ginormous to right center field and super

01:36:06.569 --> 01:36:09.890
short to left field situating it basically in

01:36:09.890 --> 01:36:12.649
the southeast corner if you will of the coliseum

01:36:13.330 --> 01:36:16.930
And right center field would go on forever. 440

01:36:16.930 --> 01:36:18.829
-foot flyouts. I'm trying to find the dimensions

01:36:18.829 --> 01:36:22.229
here on my notes. It was 250 feet down the left

01:36:22.229 --> 01:36:25.810
field line, 320 to left center. Dead center was

01:36:25.810 --> 01:36:29.779
425. Right center was 440, but then they put

01:36:29.779 --> 01:36:32.539
a giant screen up in left field to try to help

01:36:32.539 --> 01:36:34.579
make their own version of the green monster because,

01:36:34.699 --> 01:36:37.079
hey, this is way too short for right -handed

01:36:37.079 --> 01:36:39.939
hitters. It was a joke during their time in the

01:36:39.939 --> 01:36:41.600
Coliseum, but we'll talk about stadium dimensions.

01:36:41.979 --> 01:36:44.739
But all Walter O'Malley cared about was it could

01:36:44.739 --> 01:36:47.380
hold 60 ,000 people. That's all he cared about,

01:36:47.399 --> 01:36:49.020
for sure. But we'll talk about stadium dimensions

01:36:49.020 --> 01:36:51.340
when we talk about Charlie Finley in a moment.

01:36:51.720 --> 01:36:53.699
Oh, and the other thing, though, is once Dodger

01:36:53.699 --> 01:36:56.600
Stadium was ready, Gene Autry's Angels would

01:36:56.600 --> 01:36:59.380
have to be tenants and pay rent to Walter O'Malley.

01:36:59.560 --> 01:37:02.359
And eventually, this might be why the Angels

01:37:02.359 --> 01:37:04.560
eventually moved to Anaheim, was to basically

01:37:04.560 --> 01:37:07.140
get under Walter O'Malley's thumb. He had so

01:37:07.140 --> 01:37:09.260
much power that if someone was going to take

01:37:09.260 --> 01:37:11.720
something from him, he was going to get his share.

01:37:14.189 --> 01:37:17.229
to make up for his pain of having another team

01:37:17.229 --> 01:37:19.369
to compete with. So Walter O'Malley has got his

01:37:19.369 --> 01:37:21.090
wish. Along with the Giants, they've moved to

01:37:21.090 --> 01:37:23.590
California using the antitrust exemption, using

01:37:23.590 --> 01:37:26.329
eminent domain to get their new ballparks. Candlestick

01:37:26.329 --> 01:37:28.869
up in San Francisco and Dodger Stadium opening

01:37:28.869 --> 01:37:32.850
in 1962 down in Los Angeles. There will be more

01:37:32.850 --> 01:37:35.489
movement across Major League Baseball. Expansion

01:37:35.489 --> 01:37:37.829
is on the horizon. And a few other owners that

01:37:37.829 --> 01:37:40.010
we need to talk about that try to take advantage

01:37:40.010 --> 01:37:42.550
of this expansion. We talk about the innovators.

01:37:42.970 --> 01:37:45.869
Bill Veck and Charlie Finley coming up after

01:37:45.869 --> 01:37:54.750
the break. All right. You're about halfway through

01:37:54.750 --> 01:37:58.069
this month's episode. We really do thank everybody

01:37:58.069 --> 01:38:01.390
for their feedback and the content that you guys

01:38:01.390 --> 01:38:04.210
have enjoyed so far. I will say, honestly, as

01:38:04.210 --> 01:38:07.300
we get further along in this episode. It's ironic

01:38:07.300 --> 01:38:09.479
that the more recent owners become the harder

01:38:09.479 --> 01:38:12.180
ones to research. Now, granted, with Ted Turner's

01:38:12.180 --> 01:38:13.819
recent passing and George Steinbrenner about

01:38:13.819 --> 01:38:16.880
15 years ago, there is plenty of content that

01:38:16.880 --> 01:38:18.920
comes with those guys. But for Charlie Finley,

01:38:19.020 --> 01:38:21.640
there's really only about the 70s for him and

01:38:21.640 --> 01:38:23.659
a little bit about the Kansas City time. And

01:38:23.659 --> 01:38:25.659
then even for somebody like Bill Veck, if you

01:38:25.659 --> 01:38:28.180
didn't read his books, there's just a lot of

01:38:28.180 --> 01:38:30.479
sort of biased reporting about him over the years

01:38:30.479 --> 01:38:32.640
of people who just wanted to keep him out of

01:38:32.640 --> 01:38:34.810
the game. But they certainly... We're innovators

01:38:34.810 --> 01:38:36.890
that we're going to talk about here in just a

01:38:36.890 --> 01:38:39.390
moment. But we really do appreciate you for listening

01:38:39.390 --> 01:38:41.609
for this long. A reminder, we're still word of

01:38:41.609 --> 01:38:43.909
mouth right now, but you can, again, subscribe

01:38:43.909 --> 01:38:46.289
to the Substack. You can subscribe to the YouTube

01:38:46.289 --> 01:38:49.670
page. You can, you know, have our own social

01:38:49.670 --> 01:38:52.350
medias. He's Baseball Not Dead. I'm Dom underscore

01:38:52.350 --> 01:38:55.149
Catronio. You can find it in the show description

01:38:55.149 --> 01:38:58.729
wherever you may be listening. Now, the owner's

01:38:58.729 --> 01:39:01.329
episode has been a labor of love as far as how

01:39:01.329 --> 01:39:03.590
hard it's been to research these guys, but these

01:39:03.590 --> 01:39:06.189
are some of my favorite chapters of this episode

01:39:06.189 --> 01:39:08.010
on the way. You know that. I'm a little biased

01:39:08.010 --> 01:39:10.369
as an Oakland A's guy deep down at heart. So

01:39:10.369 --> 01:39:12.289
let's get ready to talk about the innovators.

01:39:12.369 --> 01:39:14.550
Back to the program with the owner's episode.

01:39:16.180 --> 01:39:20.560
VEK as in wreck. We know the autobiography. It

01:39:20.560 --> 01:39:23.220
is one of the most creative titles to teach you

01:39:23.220 --> 01:39:28.260
how to pronounce Bill VEK. V -E -E -C -K. Yes,

01:39:28.340 --> 01:39:31.260
it's VEK. But Bill VEK was one of the guys that

01:39:31.260 --> 01:39:33.939
honestly, if he was around today, I think there'd

01:39:33.939 --> 01:39:35.180
be a lot of mixed feelings. There were definitely

01:39:35.180 --> 01:39:37.060
mixed feelings while he was, you know, in charge

01:39:37.060 --> 01:39:39.720
of the White Sox. But the point being is this

01:39:39.720 --> 01:39:41.939
man was a visionary. This man was a revolutionary.

01:39:42.060 --> 01:39:44.970
He was quite frankly ahead of his time. And all

01:39:44.970 --> 01:39:46.850
that mattered to Bill Veck, along other things

01:39:46.850 --> 01:39:49.250
too, is making sure the fan had a good time.

01:39:49.329 --> 01:39:51.590
This is an owner that's shifting and shifting

01:39:51.590 --> 01:39:55.329
the priorities of owning a baseball team from

01:39:55.329 --> 01:39:57.149
the bottom line, which still matters. It still

01:39:57.149 --> 01:39:59.850
matters to have a bottom line. But the way that

01:39:59.850 --> 01:40:01.569
you create that bottom line and the way that

01:40:01.569 --> 01:40:04.250
you increase that is to make sure the fans are

01:40:04.250 --> 01:40:07.829
taken care of. Really, the most noteworthy thing

01:40:07.829 --> 01:40:10.449
of Veck is just how unique he is compared to

01:40:10.449 --> 01:40:12.890
every other owner. We've talked about owners

01:40:12.890 --> 01:40:15.739
that were... had a baseball background. We've

01:40:15.739 --> 01:40:18.279
also talked about Walter O'Malley and Wrigley,

01:40:18.319 --> 01:40:21.859
who were more had money and were able to buy

01:40:21.859 --> 01:40:24.579
a team because they had money. Bill Beck had

01:40:24.579 --> 01:40:27.680
neither. He didn't play baseball. He didn't have

01:40:27.680 --> 01:40:30.899
a lot of money. He managed to have four different.

01:40:31.399 --> 01:40:33.479
times where he owned a major league baseball

01:40:33.479 --> 01:40:37.159
team. And how he was able to own a team, interesting

01:40:37.159 --> 01:40:40.100
story. And then what he did as an owner was an

01:40:40.100 --> 01:40:42.260
interesting story. As we said earlier, he got

01:40:42.260 --> 01:40:45.359
his start in baseball. Really, his dad worked

01:40:45.359 --> 01:40:48.439
under Wrigley with the Cubs, and he got a job

01:40:48.439 --> 01:40:52.899
with the Cubs. But his first really thing in

01:40:52.899 --> 01:40:55.779
baseball he did was bought the Milwaukee Brewers,

01:40:55.840 --> 01:41:00.369
which was a minor league team in 1941. Now, I

01:41:00.369 --> 01:41:03.050
said he didn't have money. How was he able to

01:41:03.050 --> 01:41:05.369
buy the Brewers? Well, the one thing Bill Beck

01:41:05.369 --> 01:41:08.310
was really good at is being creative with the

01:41:08.310 --> 01:41:10.850
financials through a mix of loans, bringing in

01:41:10.850 --> 01:41:13.649
other business partners. Almost every time he

01:41:13.649 --> 01:41:16.250
bought a team, he wasn't putting up his own money.

01:41:16.310 --> 01:41:18.670
He was putting up other people's money and he

01:41:18.670 --> 01:41:21.310
was able to convince them, hey, I've got the

01:41:21.310 --> 01:41:23.789
acumen to make this team a success. And the Milwaukee

01:41:23.789 --> 01:41:26.569
Brewers were failing at the time. They were really,

01:41:26.689 --> 01:41:29.680
really, really bad team in the minors. And Bill

01:41:29.680 --> 01:41:33.239
Veck took over and transformed them almost overnight.

01:41:33.520 --> 01:41:36.720
Now, how did he transform them? I think the biggest

01:41:36.720 --> 01:41:40.859
way that he did it is he made the game a spectacle.

01:41:41.020 --> 01:41:44.640
He put on like they would have almost like a

01:41:44.640 --> 01:41:47.880
county fair type atmosphere at Milwaukee Brewers

01:41:47.880 --> 01:41:51.060
games. They would literally auction off farm

01:41:51.060 --> 01:41:53.979
animals at the game and they would. and they

01:41:53.979 --> 01:41:56.180
would do other things. Like there's a whole bunch

01:41:56.180 --> 01:41:58.539
of rumors of what he did of when the Brewers

01:41:58.539 --> 01:42:00.600
were batting, they would move the fences in.

01:42:00.619 --> 01:42:02.020
They had a right field fence that they could

01:42:02.020 --> 01:42:05.279
slide out. That would make it shorter when the

01:42:05.279 --> 01:42:06.880
Brewers were batting. And when the other team

01:42:06.880 --> 01:42:08.319
was batting, they would slide it back and it

01:42:08.319 --> 01:42:11.859
would be a longer distance. Now that's a story

01:42:11.859 --> 01:42:15.079
where I haven't been able to verify. Bill Beck

01:42:15.079 --> 01:42:17.220
will say it's true, but that is a thing that

01:42:17.220 --> 01:42:19.550
you find with Beck. It's very tough to figure

01:42:19.550 --> 01:42:21.930
out what was truth and what was fiction back

01:42:21.930 --> 01:42:24.050
in the day because he knew how to spin a tale.

01:42:24.130 --> 01:42:27.770
He knew how to make something entertaining and

01:42:27.770 --> 01:42:30.630
never let the truth get in the way of a good

01:42:30.630 --> 01:42:34.229
tale. But what he did with Milwaukee, they all

01:42:34.229 --> 01:42:36.829
of a sudden were the best -selling minor league

01:42:36.829 --> 01:42:39.529
team in baseball. They won three championships

01:42:39.529 --> 01:42:43.689
in a row. And then Beck took his sights and said,

01:42:44.119 --> 01:42:46.140
I should get a major league team. And he was

01:42:46.140 --> 01:42:48.000
able to do a very similar thing. He didn't have

01:42:48.000 --> 01:42:50.119
the money. He ended up selling the brewers and

01:42:50.119 --> 01:42:52.079
using a little bit he had from selling the brewers

01:42:52.079 --> 01:42:55.079
and being able to get business partners. He went

01:42:55.079 --> 01:42:57.819
and bought the Cleveland Indians. And what he

01:42:57.819 --> 01:42:59.939
did in Milwaukee, turning that team around, he

01:42:59.939 --> 01:43:01.880
did the same thing in Cleveland. There's something

01:43:01.880 --> 01:43:05.899
we've never seen to that level at the major league

01:43:05.899 --> 01:43:08.539
level up to that point. We were talking about

01:43:08.539 --> 01:43:10.159
attendance earlier and we were talking about

01:43:10.159 --> 01:43:13.770
the 1940s and 50s with the... with the Dodgers

01:43:13.770 --> 01:43:17.350
and them being around 1 .5 million. If you look

01:43:17.350 --> 01:43:19.430
at a lot of attendance back in those days, even

01:43:19.430 --> 01:43:21.529
the Yankees that had Yankee Stadium, getting

01:43:21.529 --> 01:43:25.210
over 2 million didn't happen. You'd have teams

01:43:25.210 --> 01:43:28.569
get close to that. But his third year with the

01:43:28.569 --> 01:43:31.010
Cleveland Indians, who before he bought them

01:43:31.010 --> 01:43:34.029
had attendance around 500 ,000, his third year,

01:43:34.149 --> 01:43:37.869
2 .7 million. And they ended up winning the World

01:43:37.869 --> 01:43:40.789
Series. Now, did you end up watching, I talked

01:43:40.789 --> 01:43:42.250
to you about this earlier, the kid from Cleveland?

01:43:42.720 --> 01:43:45.079
I watched bits and pieces of it trying to get

01:43:45.079 --> 01:43:47.779
it for like stills for the sub stack. It's pretty

01:43:47.779 --> 01:43:50.020
fascinating. I mean, it's Bill Beck in the broadcast

01:43:50.020 --> 01:43:53.600
booth. It's pretty funny. So what is this? The

01:43:53.600 --> 01:43:57.279
Kid from Cleveland is a 1949 movie that came

01:43:57.279 --> 01:43:59.720
out right after the Cleveland Indians won the

01:43:59.720 --> 01:44:02.800
World Series. And this was Beck's baby. He had

01:44:02.800 --> 01:44:05.920
unique ideas to promote teams. to promote his

01:44:05.920 --> 01:44:07.960
teams. And one of them was, Hey, let's make a

01:44:07.960 --> 01:44:10.359
Hollywood movie and let's make all the actors

01:44:10.359 --> 01:44:12.600
be the players. Let's just go and just film our

01:44:12.600 --> 01:44:15.079
team. So the kid from Cleveland is fascinating

01:44:15.079 --> 01:44:19.260
because that 1948 Cleveland team was stacked.

01:44:19.539 --> 01:44:22.300
Like he had satchel page. You had, I was running

01:44:22.300 --> 01:44:23.819
through some of the players with you earlier

01:44:23.819 --> 01:44:26.979
that they had on there, but anyone who's anyone

01:44:26.979 --> 01:44:29.619
in baseball was in that movie. Not necessarily

01:44:29.619 --> 01:44:31.800
a good movie, but it's a very interesting way.

01:44:31.920 --> 01:44:33.819
And it's kind of a love letter of Beck to Cleveland

01:44:33.819 --> 01:44:36.760
because he loved Cleveland. They loved him. If

01:44:36.760 --> 01:44:41.380
things would have things took a turn south for

01:44:41.380 --> 01:44:44.420
him financially due to a divorce, he had to pay

01:44:44.420 --> 01:44:47.840
out a divorce settlement, needed the money, didn't

01:44:47.840 --> 01:44:50.359
have the money. And unfortunately, he was forced

01:44:50.359 --> 01:44:52.640
to sell the Cleveland Indians after having that

01:44:52.640 --> 01:44:54.859
incredible turnaround. But how did he accomplish

01:44:54.859 --> 01:44:56.760
this turnaround? Well, like I said, he made a

01:44:56.760 --> 01:45:00.140
bunch of changes to. the experience of watching

01:45:00.140 --> 01:45:03.819
a game. Things that we see today that we consider

01:45:03.819 --> 01:45:06.859
as part of the game that have been going on for

01:45:06.859 --> 01:45:09.420
years originated with Bill Beck. We already mentioned

01:45:09.420 --> 01:45:12.340
the Wrigley Field Ivy. That's a historic baseball

01:45:12.340 --> 01:45:14.619
thing that everyone knows. There's Ivy in the

01:45:14.619 --> 01:45:18.159
outfield for Wrigley Field that supposedly came

01:45:18.159 --> 01:45:21.260
from Bill Beck. Every team does fireworks after

01:45:21.260 --> 01:45:23.659
a home run now. Who was the first team to do

01:45:23.659 --> 01:45:25.500
that? It was Bill Beck when he owned the Chicago

01:45:25.500 --> 01:45:29.020
White Sox. players doing curtain calls after

01:45:29.020 --> 01:45:31.560
home runs coming out of the dugout. Bill Veck

01:45:31.560 --> 01:45:33.840
encouraged his players to do that, to kind of

01:45:33.840 --> 01:45:35.859
make it an event, go out and take a bow in front

01:45:35.859 --> 01:45:38.680
of the fans. You know, Harry Carey singing, take

01:45:38.680 --> 01:45:40.340
me out to the ball game in the seventh inning

01:45:40.340 --> 01:45:43.220
stretch, something that the Cubs still celebrate

01:45:43.220 --> 01:45:45.680
to this day, even more than a, has it been a

01:45:45.680 --> 01:45:48.699
decade since Harry Carey died? They still, yeah,

01:45:48.779 --> 01:45:50.859
it's been over a decade. They still do that.

01:45:51.079 --> 01:45:53.500
That started with the White Sox when Harry Carey

01:45:53.500 --> 01:45:55.340
was an announcer for the White Sox and Bill Veck

01:45:55.340 --> 01:45:58.039
owned the team. When you look at all the things

01:45:58.039 --> 01:46:02.039
to Bill Beck's legacy, fan -first stuff, you

01:46:02.039 --> 01:46:04.720
think of the giveaways, you think of the promotional

01:46:04.720 --> 01:46:07.720
nights that are so standard today that we kind

01:46:07.720 --> 01:46:10.479
of gloss over it, that it feels so normal to

01:46:10.479 --> 01:46:12.720
us. I mean, watching a Brewer game just last

01:46:12.720 --> 01:46:15.699
week, it was backyard baseball night. Two kids

01:46:15.699 --> 01:46:18.039
who grew up – like I grew up on backyard baseball.

01:46:18.180 --> 01:46:20.000
I loved that game growing up. It's fun. It's

01:46:20.000 --> 01:46:21.659
a promotional night. It's just something to smile

01:46:21.659 --> 01:46:24.859
about. This was unheard of for years until Bill

01:46:24.859 --> 01:46:27.220
Veck brought it in. Ladies' Day was always a

01:46:27.220 --> 01:46:30.460
big hit. Disco Demolition Night, though, that's

01:46:30.460 --> 01:46:33.800
a different story. On top, yeah. Sometimes he

01:46:33.800 --> 01:46:36.359
took it too far. Sometimes he took it too far.

01:46:36.539 --> 01:46:38.720
He would throw anything on the wall and see if

01:46:38.720 --> 01:46:40.760
it would stick. Sometimes it would. Sometimes

01:46:40.760 --> 01:46:43.840
it wouldn't. But the other thing about Bill Veck

01:46:43.840 --> 01:46:46.779
that I think – we need to reiterate and understand

01:46:46.779 --> 01:46:50.199
this dude was a hustler in a good way that I

01:46:50.199 --> 01:46:52.539
can describe it. Well, you said his first book

01:46:52.539 --> 01:46:54.539
was Vec is in Wreck. His second book was The

01:46:54.539 --> 01:46:56.760
Hustler's Handbook. That was the title of that

01:46:56.760 --> 01:47:00.840
one. He described it as scrimp, beg, borrow,

01:47:01.060 --> 01:47:03.779
and steal to cobble together enough money to

01:47:03.779 --> 01:47:06.319
buy a ball club. And during that time with the

01:47:06.319 --> 01:47:08.539
Indians, he did it. Got expensive. Moved on.

01:47:08.640 --> 01:47:11.539
Then the Browns. And maybe one of his more famous

01:47:11.539 --> 01:47:13.920
moments, of course, with Eddie Goodell when he's

01:47:13.920 --> 01:47:15.560
with the Browns for one plate appearance. Just

01:47:15.560 --> 01:47:18.500
an example of trying to make a mockery. Not necessarily

01:47:18.500 --> 01:47:20.119
a mockery. Maybe that's the wrong word. But just

01:47:20.119 --> 01:47:22.539
sort of to put light on the fact that this is

01:47:22.539 --> 01:47:24.920
professional sports. This is entertainment. I

01:47:24.920 --> 01:47:26.960
am here to entertain people. And that was within

01:47:26.960 --> 01:47:29.380
the rules at the time. The only reason the commissioner's

01:47:29.380 --> 01:47:33.279
office needs to approve any contract now is because

01:47:33.279 --> 01:47:35.159
of Eddie Goodell. In case you're not familiar

01:47:35.159 --> 01:47:38.720
with the Eddie Goodell deal. He was a legal little

01:47:38.720 --> 01:47:42.600
person. He was 3 '7". And just for kicks and

01:47:42.600 --> 01:47:44.880
giggles, Bill Veck signed him to a contract with

01:47:44.880 --> 01:47:47.039
the St. Louis Browns. He got one plate appearance.

01:47:47.180 --> 01:47:49.859
He's in the encyclopedia. One plate appearance,

01:47:50.159 --> 01:47:52.500
one walk for Eddie Goodell. The next day, his

01:47:52.500 --> 01:47:54.840
contract was voided. I don't think he was hated

01:47:54.840 --> 01:47:57.600
by the owners yet in Cleveland. But when he took

01:47:57.600 --> 01:48:01.020
over the Browns, he made some enemies. And there's

01:48:01.020 --> 01:48:03.539
a couple reasons why. Bill Veck spoke his mind.

01:48:03.939 --> 01:48:07.119
And when it came to... television rights and

01:48:07.119 --> 01:48:09.840
things like that things that small markets you

01:48:09.840 --> 01:48:12.920
know you wouldn't say you wouldn't have the Brewers

01:48:12.920 --> 01:48:15.180
owner today going out there and going we should

01:48:15.180 --> 01:48:18.199
get half the Dodgers television rights Bill Beck

01:48:18.199 --> 01:48:20.060
at the time was going out going saying the St.

01:48:20.100 --> 01:48:21.819
Louis Browns should get all the team's television

01:48:21.819 --> 01:48:23.819
rights because we don't make as much money and

01:48:23.819 --> 01:48:25.899
the other owners didn't like that the other thing

01:48:25.899 --> 01:48:28.600
is when he took over the Browns remember I was

01:48:28.600 --> 01:48:30.739
saying there were there were team there were

01:48:30.739 --> 01:48:32.979
cities with two teams that couldn't support two

01:48:32.979 --> 01:48:35.470
teams St. Louis was one of them They had the

01:48:35.470 --> 01:48:38.449
Browns, which were like the little kid that was

01:48:38.449 --> 01:48:40.750
was obviously looking to be moved. And they had

01:48:40.750 --> 01:48:43.390
the Cardinals. And instead of buying the Browns

01:48:43.390 --> 01:48:45.869
and moving them, he bought the Browns and did

01:48:45.869 --> 01:48:50.649
a campaign to try to force Fred Sy, the owner

01:48:50.649 --> 01:48:53.029
of the Cardinals at the time, out of town. And

01:48:53.029 --> 01:48:55.630
the things he did were kind of crazy. I want

01:48:55.630 --> 01:48:57.640
to. Give you a shout out here for the work that

01:48:57.640 --> 01:49:01.380
you did on your channel to research this and

01:49:01.380 --> 01:49:03.760
this conflict within St. Louis of the silliness

01:49:03.760 --> 01:49:05.979
of why does St. Louis have two baseball teams

01:49:05.979 --> 01:49:08.500
and how did Bill Beck create success at least

01:49:08.500 --> 01:49:11.659
for one year? But ultimately, in the end, the

01:49:11.659 --> 01:49:14.560
Cardinals did win. But for one year, Bill Beck

01:49:14.560 --> 01:49:17.399
made everybody sweat. I mean, the Cardinals were

01:49:17.399 --> 01:49:20.119
losing because what it was is Bill Beck comes

01:49:20.119 --> 01:49:23.560
in. The Cardinals had a manager, Roger Hornsby,

01:49:23.640 --> 01:49:26.180
Cardinals legend. They ended up firing him. Bill

01:49:26.180 --> 01:49:28.159
Beck hires Rogers Hornsby. So he's like, hey,

01:49:28.180 --> 01:49:30.520
the Browns now have the Cardinals legend. He

01:49:30.520 --> 01:49:32.739
owned the stadium and he painted it in Browns

01:49:32.739 --> 01:49:35.659
colors and covered up all the Cardinals things

01:49:35.659 --> 01:49:39.720
in the stadium. Anytime the Cardinals would cut

01:49:39.720 --> 01:49:42.479
a player, Bill Beck would immediately claim him

01:49:42.479 --> 01:49:44.140
on waivers. So the Cardinals then would stop

01:49:44.140 --> 01:49:45.680
cutting players because he's like, I'm going

01:49:45.680 --> 01:49:47.720
to get all the Cardinals players that are beloved

01:49:47.720 --> 01:49:51.060
in St. Louis playing for the Browns so the fans

01:49:51.060 --> 01:49:55.390
will like the Browns. And it's just... A number

01:49:55.390 --> 01:49:58.789
of things he did. And attendance was going up

01:49:58.789 --> 01:50:01.069
for the Browns and was going down for the Cardinals.

01:50:01.170 --> 01:50:04.850
But the weirdest thing happened. Fred Sy, the

01:50:04.850 --> 01:50:08.170
owner of the Cardinals, got in trouble with tax

01:50:08.170 --> 01:50:11.649
evasion and was sentenced to prison and forced

01:50:11.649 --> 01:50:14.449
to sell the team. And at this moment, Bill Beck's

01:50:14.449 --> 01:50:17.289
going, I've won. He was looking at selling to

01:50:17.289 --> 01:50:20.010
Minneapolis. He was looking at selling to Houston.

01:50:20.409 --> 01:50:23.420
And then out of the blue, A businessman in St.

01:50:23.539 --> 01:50:27.859
Louis named Gussie Bush of Bush Brewery, basically

01:50:27.859 --> 01:50:31.180
the brewery synonymous with St. Louis, came in

01:50:31.180 --> 01:50:33.720
and decided to buy the Cardinals. And at that

01:50:33.720 --> 01:50:36.159
moment, Bill Veck says, OK, I'm screwed. We got

01:50:36.159 --> 01:50:38.680
to move. And so he decided we're going to move

01:50:38.680 --> 01:50:41.680
this team to Baltimore, which the Browns did

01:50:41.680 --> 01:50:43.760
have moved to Baltimore, but not under Veck.

01:50:43.920 --> 01:50:45.520
The problem was to move a team in the American

01:50:45.520 --> 01:50:47.680
League. All the American League owners need to

01:50:47.680 --> 01:50:50.439
approve it. And they were getting sick of Veck.

01:50:50.890 --> 01:50:54.729
So basically, when Vec went to, hey, let's go

01:50:54.729 --> 01:50:57.390
to a vote. Can I move to Baltimore? The owner

01:50:57.390 --> 01:51:01.189
said no. And Vec goes, but if I stay in St. Louis,

01:51:01.470 --> 01:51:03.569
the team's going to go bankrupt. And they're

01:51:03.569 --> 01:51:05.369
like, well, that's not our problem. And voted

01:51:05.369 --> 01:51:07.930
against him moving to Baltimore, leaving him

01:51:07.930 --> 01:51:10.310
in St. Louis and a team that was going to go

01:51:10.310 --> 01:51:14.789
bankrupt. And eventually Vec was forced to sell

01:51:14.789 --> 01:51:17.829
the team. Now, what do you think happened the

01:51:17.829 --> 01:51:20.670
day after Vec sold the team to another owner?

01:51:21.390 --> 01:51:25.489
They put in relocation efforts? They put in relocation

01:51:25.489 --> 01:51:26.949
efforts and the American League owners approved

01:51:26.949 --> 01:51:29.350
it and they moved to Baltimore. The whole reason

01:51:29.350 --> 01:51:32.149
they voted against it was just to force Bill

01:51:32.149 --> 01:51:35.449
Vec out of baseball. But that wasn't the end

01:51:35.449 --> 01:51:38.489
of Vec. He constantly kept trying to buy teams,

01:51:38.609 --> 01:51:41.149
which... wasn't really going too well because

01:51:41.149 --> 01:51:44.210
the voters would vote him down every time. He

01:51:44.210 --> 01:51:46.630
was one of the initial bidders on the Philadelphia

01:51:46.630 --> 01:51:49.529
Athletics with the goal of moving them to Los

01:51:49.529 --> 01:51:51.729
Angeles. Now, that would have been funny because

01:51:51.729 --> 01:51:56.090
this is 1955. Imagine if Bill Veck beat Walter

01:51:56.090 --> 01:51:58.569
O'Malley to the punch on going to Los Angeles.

01:51:58.710 --> 01:52:01.390
Would he have become the next Walter O'Malley?

01:52:01.470 --> 01:52:03.250
Would he have been the most powerful person in

01:52:03.250 --> 01:52:05.539
the league for the next decade? We'll never know.

01:52:05.699 --> 01:52:09.060
But he tried to buy a number of teams and he

01:52:09.060 --> 01:52:12.619
wasn't able to get back in until the late 1950s

01:52:12.619 --> 01:52:15.979
when he was able to buy a share of the Comiskey

01:52:15.979 --> 01:52:19.819
share of the White Sox. White Sox president Grace

01:52:19.819 --> 01:52:22.420
Comiskey had died and he was able to put an ownership

01:52:22.420 --> 01:52:26.779
group of be able to buy 54 % of the team with

01:52:26.779 --> 01:52:30.020
dozens, dozens of investors. This is the funny

01:52:30.020 --> 01:52:32.510
thing about Feck. He never had money. to buy

01:52:32.510 --> 01:52:35.010
a team himself. He would always get investors,

01:52:35.170 --> 01:52:38.829
investors, investors, take out loans. Dom, it

01:52:38.829 --> 01:52:42.310
would be like you or me buying a team. Just go

01:52:42.310 --> 01:52:44.850
out there and just get a whole bunch of people

01:52:44.850 --> 01:52:48.329
in town that have got money, be able to promise,

01:52:48.449 --> 01:52:50.189
hey, do you want to own a baseball team? Let's

01:52:50.189 --> 01:52:52.449
own a baseball team together. You were able to

01:52:52.449 --> 01:52:55.109
do this back then. Beck was the last one to be

01:52:55.109 --> 01:52:57.649
able to do this, really. There's a stat thrown

01:52:57.649 --> 01:53:00.220
out there, and I don't really know. how they

01:53:00.220 --> 01:53:02.600
quantify this, but the stat is he's the last

01:53:02.600 --> 01:53:07.399
person without an independent fortune to be able

01:53:07.399 --> 01:53:09.279
to buy a baseball team. Now, I don't know, again,

01:53:09.359 --> 01:53:11.779
how they quantify that, what constitutes an independent

01:53:11.779 --> 01:53:15.220
fortune. But he was able to buy the White Sox

01:53:15.220 --> 01:53:19.699
in February of 1959, and he went back to doing

01:53:19.699 --> 01:53:22.819
his old tricks. For instance, he gave away orchids

01:53:22.819 --> 01:53:26.970
on Mother's Day. and he had a lucky chair in

01:53:26.970 --> 01:53:29.930
the stands that would get a prize of 36 live

01:53:29.930 --> 01:53:33.050
lobsters. Other fans would receive 1 ,000 cans

01:53:33.050 --> 01:53:35.550
of beer, 1 ,000 pies, 1 ,000 bottles of root

01:53:35.550 --> 01:53:37.829
beer, 1 ,000 cupcakes, and 100 free restaurant

01:53:37.829 --> 01:53:40.649
dinners. He did giveaways. He did weird events,

01:53:40.850 --> 01:53:43.229
Disco Demolition Night, as we talked about earlier,

01:53:43.430 --> 01:53:46.649
and actually got the attendance to a Comiskey

01:53:46.649 --> 01:53:51.789
Park record of 1 .4 million in 1960. And the

01:53:51.789 --> 01:53:54.199
other thing that helps, too, in 59, They won

01:53:54.199 --> 01:53:56.100
the pennant. They were a very good team. The

01:53:56.100 --> 01:53:59.239
go -go White Sox, as Southsiders are known, that

01:53:59.239 --> 01:54:02.340
this team brought some excitement finally to

01:54:02.340 --> 01:54:04.779
Comiskey. And as you said, they followed up with

01:54:04.779 --> 01:54:07.939
the record in 1960, but things were not good

01:54:07.939 --> 01:54:12.220
on the horizon for Bill himself in 1961. Beck

01:54:12.220 --> 01:54:14.500
took over the White Sox in 59. How long do you

01:54:14.500 --> 01:54:17.579
think he lasted with the White Sox? He's known

01:54:17.579 --> 01:54:21.239
for his long ownership stints. I would sure hope

01:54:21.239 --> 01:54:23.739
this lasts at least 10 years, right? Yeah, no,

01:54:23.819 --> 01:54:27.319
no. Just lasted two years, even though they broke

01:54:27.319 --> 01:54:29.960
the Chicago attendance record the next year with

01:54:29.960 --> 01:54:32.119
1 .6 million, meaning he got more attendance

01:54:32.119 --> 01:54:33.960
than Wrigley. You know, the team that he got

01:54:33.960 --> 01:54:36.420
his start with. Actually, the attendance record

01:54:36.420 --> 01:54:39.100
in Chicago was set back when he was an employee

01:54:39.100 --> 01:54:44.199
under Wrigley back in the 1930s. But he had some.

01:54:45.470 --> 01:54:47.850
physical ailments. Had to go to the Mayo Clinic

01:54:47.850 --> 01:54:52.210
for some tests. And in 1961, he was recommended

01:54:52.210 --> 01:54:55.189
by his doctors to retire. And he ended up selling

01:54:55.189 --> 01:54:58.689
the White Sox. So only a three -year stint as

01:54:58.689 --> 01:55:01.090
owner of the White Sox. So would that be the

01:55:01.090 --> 01:55:03.390
end of Vec? Of course not. Would he no longer

01:55:03.390 --> 01:55:09.109
get into baseball? Nope. Back in 1975, he again.

01:55:09.689 --> 01:55:12.989
was able to manage or was able to buy a majority

01:55:12.989 --> 01:55:15.350
stake in the White Sox. Now, during this whole

01:55:15.350 --> 01:55:18.850
time, from 61 to 75, he kept trying to buy teams

01:55:18.850 --> 01:55:21.029
and he kept getting shot down, shot down, shot

01:55:21.029 --> 01:55:23.430
down. It's kind of amazing he was able to get

01:55:23.430 --> 01:55:25.289
those three years with the White Sox with how

01:55:25.289 --> 01:55:28.210
much the owners hated him. But in 75, he was

01:55:28.210 --> 01:55:31.090
able to put a team of 40 different investors

01:55:31.090 --> 01:55:35.489
to buy a majority stake in the White Sox. And

01:55:35.489 --> 01:55:36.789
what do you think the American League owners

01:55:36.789 --> 01:55:39.600
did when it came to a vote? So they didn't want

01:55:39.600 --> 01:55:41.920
him around. They didn't want him around. They

01:55:41.920 --> 01:55:44.800
voted him down. So then he got more investors,

01:55:44.920 --> 01:55:47.960
got more money, went back, went to a vote, voted

01:55:47.960 --> 01:55:50.420
it down. And it was this point where it was almost

01:55:50.420 --> 01:55:53.420
it was clearly out of spite. He had done everything

01:55:53.420 --> 01:55:56.739
right. And Detroit Tigers owner John Fetzer finally

01:55:56.739 --> 01:55:59.500
sat his colleagues down and said, look, I don't

01:55:59.500 --> 01:56:01.579
like it any more than you do that. We're allowing

01:56:01.579 --> 01:56:03.920
a guy in here who has called me a son of a bitch

01:56:03.920 --> 01:56:06.880
over and over. But gentlemen, we've got to take

01:56:06.880 --> 01:56:09.300
another vote. He's done everything that's been

01:56:09.300 --> 01:56:11.439
required of him, and we keep shooting him down.

01:56:12.039 --> 01:56:15.939
This is not right. And they finally passed his

01:56:15.939 --> 01:56:20.140
purchase 10 -2. One more vote than the three

01:56:20.140 --> 01:56:22.479
-fourths necessary, and he was able to take over

01:56:22.479 --> 01:56:24.779
the White Sox again. But this was a different

01:56:24.779 --> 01:56:28.180
time period. This is when free agency started.

01:56:28.640 --> 01:56:31.239
Literally two months before he had bought the

01:56:31.239 --> 01:56:33.239
team, he's already rounding up all these investors.

01:56:33.479 --> 01:56:36.500
He's already getting everybody involved. And

01:56:36.500 --> 01:56:38.899
Peter Seitz's decision comes in the offseason

01:56:38.899 --> 01:56:42.060
between 75 and 76. So everybody knows the 76

01:56:42.060 --> 01:56:44.159
season, for all the players who have the amount

01:56:44.159 --> 01:56:45.859
of service time that they have, they're about

01:56:45.859 --> 01:56:48.420
to be free agents at the end of this year. How

01:56:48.420 --> 01:56:50.979
are you going to adapt to all this? Yep. And

01:56:50.979 --> 01:56:52.659
there were different strategies, like, for instance,

01:56:52.880 --> 01:56:56.039
the Reds. They refused to offer any money to

01:56:56.039 --> 01:56:58.779
any free agent. The Yankees obviously were spending

01:56:58.779 --> 01:57:01.600
money left and right. And Bill Beck's strategy,

01:57:01.739 --> 01:57:06.239
and this is especially what he did in 1977, was

01:57:06.239 --> 01:57:08.939
a unique one, one that you don't see today. He

01:57:08.939 --> 01:57:12.390
decided, hey. the cheapest these guys are are

01:57:12.390 --> 01:57:15.130
right before they hit free agency. So he traded

01:57:15.130 --> 01:57:17.590
for a bunch of players that were good players

01:57:17.590 --> 01:57:20.909
that were one year away from free agency, as

01:57:20.909 --> 01:57:23.229
opposed to now, where if you're rebuilding, you

01:57:23.229 --> 01:57:25.189
trade for a prospect that you're going to have

01:57:25.189 --> 01:57:28.390
for six or seven years. If you're a team that's

01:57:28.390 --> 01:57:31.489
in competition and contention, you can trade

01:57:31.489 --> 01:57:34.250
for those assets, but you usually have, you know,

01:57:34.250 --> 01:57:37.829
something set up for multiple years. No, Vec

01:57:37.829 --> 01:57:42.020
went all in in 1977. traded for a bunch of players

01:57:42.020 --> 01:57:44.979
that were about to become free agents. Won 90

01:57:44.979 --> 01:57:47.840
games. Didn't make the postseason, but won 90

01:57:47.840 --> 01:57:49.699
games. But, Don, how do you think that went out

01:57:49.699 --> 01:57:53.699
after 1977? You need some farm system. You need

01:57:53.699 --> 01:57:57.220
some talent on the way up. Yeah, it didn't. They

01:57:57.220 --> 01:58:00.520
went from 90 wins to 71 wins and had basically

01:58:00.520 --> 01:58:05.399
sold the farm, as they say, to be able to get

01:58:05.399 --> 01:58:09.640
that one year of success. And then 79 was the

01:58:09.640 --> 01:58:13.539
dreaded disco demolition night. And at that point,

01:58:13.539 --> 01:58:16.340
it was clear Vec was going to be on his way out.

01:58:16.380 --> 01:58:18.500
Again, a lot of health issues were coming up.

01:58:18.579 --> 01:58:21.420
The White Sox were not very good. A couple of

01:58:21.420 --> 01:58:24.159
those promotions had bit him in the back and

01:58:24.159 --> 01:58:27.399
made him public enemy number one. And not just

01:58:27.399 --> 01:58:30.479
in the eyes of the owners this time, some of

01:58:30.479 --> 01:58:34.140
the fans. And other investors were saying, hey,

01:58:34.199 --> 01:58:36.579
this isn't good for baseball. And he eventually

01:58:36.579 --> 01:58:40.199
had to leave. He eventually had to sell the team

01:58:40.199 --> 01:58:44.340
and leave baseball in 1981. This was great from

01:58:44.340 --> 01:58:46.659
Lords of the Realm. I wanted to read this again.

01:58:47.659 --> 01:58:51.699
Though ahead of his time in the 50s, he reentered

01:58:51.699 --> 01:58:55.600
baseball at precisely the wrong moment. Because

01:58:55.600 --> 01:58:58.000
he just didn't have the money. And this is the

01:58:58.000 --> 01:59:00.819
shift that we see in ownership that goes from,

01:59:01.340 --> 01:59:03.619
Guys who just want to make money to guys who

01:59:03.619 --> 01:59:05.760
actually want to win and be the toast of the

01:59:05.760 --> 01:59:07.760
town and be the most famous person in their city.

01:59:08.279 --> 01:59:11.760
Vec wanted more of that than caring about a winner.

01:59:11.880 --> 01:59:13.939
And he knew he would make money eventually, but

01:59:13.939 --> 01:59:16.659
he cared about the attention and the popularity

01:59:16.659 --> 01:59:18.619
of the sport and the popularity of the teams

01:59:18.619 --> 01:59:20.920
that he owned. It just started to shift where

01:59:20.920 --> 01:59:23.479
other owners cared about winning at this time

01:59:23.479 --> 01:59:27.390
and not so much about the... that ownerships

01:59:27.390 --> 01:59:29.609
had had forever when it comes to the reserve

01:59:29.609 --> 01:59:31.329
clause. And this is where Bill Veck, again, was

01:59:31.329 --> 01:59:34.569
ahead of his time in how staunchly opposed he

01:59:34.569 --> 01:59:36.930
was to the reserve clause. He actually testified

01:59:36.930 --> 01:59:40.930
in the Curt Flood case against the reserve clause

01:59:40.930 --> 01:59:43.149
in front of all the other owners who were trying

01:59:43.149 --> 01:59:45.710
to keep the reserve clause. Here he is in the

01:59:45.710 --> 01:59:47.569
late 60s saying, no, we need to get rid of this

01:59:47.569 --> 01:59:49.649
thing. This thing's awful. The reserve clause

01:59:49.649 --> 01:59:52.329
is not what we need. He's the first one that

01:59:52.329 --> 01:59:54.710
actually... was trying to put his hand up saying,

01:59:54.770 --> 01:59:57.850
let's fix this, calling it human bondage for

01:59:57.850 --> 02:00:00.630
the reserve clause to hold players to their teams

02:00:00.630 --> 02:00:05.350
forever. I will give him that benefit of saying,

02:00:05.510 --> 02:00:08.350
okay, you had the moral compass, right? To understand

02:00:08.350 --> 02:00:10.590
there are other ways to make money. There are

02:00:10.590 --> 02:00:12.989
other ways to keep players. But again, as the

02:00:12.989 --> 02:00:15.689
quote, I just said, he just was not at all prepared

02:00:15.689 --> 02:00:17.829
for what free agency was going to bring. Yeah.

02:00:17.890 --> 02:00:19.850
And he definitely had the moral compass. He did

02:00:19.850 --> 02:00:23.180
a lot of things through his days. That, again,

02:00:23.420 --> 02:00:26.100
when he was with the Cleveland Indians, he signed

02:00:26.100 --> 02:00:28.840
the first black player for the American League.

02:00:29.479 --> 02:00:33.000
He also signed Satchel Paige, who was in his

02:00:33.000 --> 02:00:35.460
40s at the time and was able to play in the majors.

02:00:36.119 --> 02:00:39.800
Minnie Minoso, the only player to play, I believe

02:00:39.800 --> 02:00:42.420
it's across four different decades. And it's

02:00:42.420 --> 02:00:45.479
because Bill Veck's last run with the White Sox,

02:00:45.500 --> 02:00:48.060
when Minnie Minoso was in his 50s, signed him

02:00:48.060 --> 02:00:51.880
for one day and had him have it at bat. He definitely

02:00:51.880 --> 02:00:53.939
cared about his players. He cared about the community.

02:00:54.180 --> 02:00:57.479
And when he left the White Sox for the last time,

02:00:57.500 --> 02:01:00.720
his last days, what he ended up doing is he had

02:01:00.720 --> 02:01:03.600
last five years of his life. He spent in the

02:01:03.600 --> 02:01:06.060
Wrigley bleachers, just watching game day games,

02:01:06.180 --> 02:01:08.979
hanging out with the fans, drinking, even though

02:01:08.979 --> 02:01:11.619
his health wasn't very good. Cause that's really

02:01:11.619 --> 02:01:14.460
his life as a summer. He's just all about baseball.

02:01:15.020 --> 02:01:17.640
He just loved baseball that much. He loved people.

02:01:17.840 --> 02:01:19.340
He wanted to be involved, and he thought being

02:01:19.340 --> 02:01:21.880
an owner was the best way to do it. Unfortunately,

02:01:22.180 --> 02:01:25.039
that's not what the other owners are like. And

02:01:25.039 --> 02:01:28.420
unfortunately, the other owners control the league.

02:01:29.039 --> 02:01:32.359
He was somebody that was a character, wanted

02:01:32.359 --> 02:01:34.720
the center of attention, wanted everyone to look

02:01:34.720 --> 02:01:37.779
at him, not necessarily his teams. Well, let's

02:01:37.779 --> 02:01:40.819
meet somebody that always was the center of attention,

02:01:41.060 --> 02:01:44.300
for better or for worse, but his teams were talented

02:01:44.300 --> 02:01:46.640
enough. to take the attention away and to say,

02:01:46.800 --> 02:01:50.659
oh, Charlie. Charlie Finley. We have talked about

02:01:50.659 --> 02:01:53.260
Charlie Finley a couple of times already on this

02:01:53.260 --> 02:01:56.279
podcast series. Somebody that I have said needs

02:01:56.279 --> 02:02:00.000
to be the subject of a movie series or a miniseries

02:02:00.000 --> 02:02:03.439
of just the stories that this guy has from the

02:02:03.439 --> 02:02:06.600
60s and 70s would be a thrilling, entertainment,

02:02:06.739 --> 02:02:10.220
hilarious, are you serious type show like winning

02:02:10.220 --> 02:02:13.069
time was for the Lakers. Charlie Finley, the

02:02:13.069 --> 02:02:17.250
owner of the A's and really the architect of

02:02:17.250 --> 02:02:22.010
the dynasty A's, 72, 73, 74. You may notice 75

02:02:22.010 --> 02:02:24.810
is when things came crashing down. I wonder why.

02:02:25.050 --> 02:02:27.729
So what do you know off the top of your head

02:02:27.729 --> 02:02:30.149
here, Scott, about Charlie Finley? What did you

02:02:30.149 --> 02:02:32.250
know before you started doing any research, before

02:02:32.250 --> 02:02:35.369
we even started doing this sort of work? Well,

02:02:35.390 --> 02:02:38.390
oh, I actually didn't know a lot about. Actually,

02:02:38.449 --> 02:02:40.210
the only thing I knew about Charlie Finley is

02:02:40.210 --> 02:02:43.109
I have a picture of my mom with Charlie Finley

02:02:43.109 --> 02:02:45.609
because she sang the national anthem at a Oakland

02:02:45.609 --> 02:02:48.069
A's game once. Shout out to Charlie Finley there.

02:02:48.170 --> 02:02:49.890
So that was the only thing I really knew of Charlie

02:02:49.890 --> 02:02:52.710
Finley. But in doing research, I've kind of learned

02:02:52.710 --> 02:02:54.770
to, I don't know whether this is the right way

02:02:54.770 --> 02:02:57.189
to describe him, almost Bill Beck light when

02:02:57.189 --> 02:02:59.649
it comes to the promotions. Well, when it comes

02:02:59.649 --> 02:03:01.729
to promotions, sort of. But when it comes to

02:03:01.729 --> 02:03:04.189
the center of attention. Oh, center of attention.

02:03:04.329 --> 02:03:07.109
He's not Bill Beckley. Yeah, that's when Charlie

02:03:07.109 --> 02:03:10.350
Finley takes over. This quote, I used a handful

02:03:10.350 --> 02:03:12.789
of quotes from Lords of the Realm, from Bowie

02:03:12.789 --> 02:03:15.850
Kuhn's autobiography, from everywhere you can

02:03:15.850 --> 02:03:17.590
find. There's a great one over in Society of

02:03:17.590 --> 02:03:19.729
American Baseball Research of mustaches and mayhem

02:03:19.729 --> 02:03:23.210
talking about the 70s Oakland A's. But this was

02:03:23.210 --> 02:03:26.590
my favorite quote when I what I found. When his

02:03:26.590 --> 02:03:29.529
team lost, he blamed everyone but himself. When

02:03:29.529 --> 02:03:31.829
they won, he was apt to call the radio booth

02:03:31.829 --> 02:03:34.189
during the game if his name was not mentioned

02:03:34.189 --> 02:03:38.470
often enough. That is the synopsis of just what

02:03:38.470 --> 02:03:40.189
you need to know about Charlie Finley. He wanted

02:03:40.189 --> 02:03:42.510
all the credit. Everybody looked the other way

02:03:42.510 --> 02:03:44.890
if we're losing. And they weren't losing very

02:03:44.890 --> 02:03:47.810
often once they moved to Oakland. This man was

02:03:47.810 --> 02:03:51.189
a hustler. This man knew what he wanted. He was

02:03:51.189 --> 02:03:54.369
a self -made millionaire. And we'll explain how.

02:03:55.100 --> 02:03:59.460
Charlie O comes to the fold with Charlie Finley.

02:03:59.560 --> 02:04:02.119
But we've got to go back. You mentioned briefly

02:04:02.119 --> 02:04:04.640
the Philadelphia A's and the Macca State selling

02:04:04.640 --> 02:04:08.760
their portion of the team and then being moved

02:04:08.760 --> 02:04:12.159
to Kansas City. Because Philadelphia was not

02:04:12.159 --> 02:04:16.340
surviving as a two -team city, American League,

02:04:16.460 --> 02:04:18.359
National League. Again, we still don't have interleague

02:04:18.359 --> 02:04:21.140
play at this point. One of those teams gets moved

02:04:21.140 --> 02:04:23.260
to Kansas City. And the original ownership of

02:04:23.260 --> 02:04:25.060
the Missable Stadium thought they had a great

02:04:25.060 --> 02:04:27.000
idea going, oh, fans are going to come from all

02:04:27.000 --> 02:04:30.420
over. The boom of the automobile is starting

02:04:30.420 --> 02:04:32.819
to make it easier for fans in the suburbs of

02:04:32.819 --> 02:04:34.779
Kansas City and the surrounding areas to make

02:04:34.779 --> 02:04:36.420
it to KC. Everyone thought this was going to

02:04:36.420 --> 02:04:39.380
be a slam dunk. Great city. It's been a AAA city

02:04:39.380 --> 02:04:41.779
for so long. Finally have Major League Baseball.

02:04:42.000 --> 02:04:44.439
It did not go well. Yeah, they were not set up

02:04:44.439 --> 02:04:48.859
for success because I mentioned Topping and Webb,

02:04:48.979 --> 02:04:51.659
the Yankees owners. They coordinated this wholesale

02:04:51.659 --> 02:04:54.199
to Arnold Johnson, who was the guy that owned

02:04:54.199 --> 02:04:58.539
Yankee Stadium. And then when they moved to Kansas

02:04:58.539 --> 02:05:01.479
City, the construction company was Webb Company.

02:05:02.199 --> 02:05:06.079
So the Yankees owner, construction company, is

02:05:06.079 --> 02:05:07.779
doing the construction in Kansas City. The guy

02:05:07.779 --> 02:05:11.119
that bought the A's is the guy that they were

02:05:11.119 --> 02:05:13.239
already had a lease with and a business partner

02:05:13.239 --> 02:05:16.960
with. And over the next, over Arnold Johnson's

02:05:16.960 --> 02:05:19.850
ownership in Kansas City. It was basically a

02:05:19.850 --> 02:05:22.130
Yankees farm team. You know, Roger Maris, you

02:05:22.130 --> 02:05:24.529
know him for 61 home runs. He was traded from

02:05:24.529 --> 02:05:27.770
the A's to the Yankees. And there's about a dozen

02:05:27.770 --> 02:05:30.350
other star players that went from the A's to

02:05:30.350 --> 02:05:35.130
the Yankees because it was basically the Yankees

02:05:35.130 --> 02:05:38.210
owners had their guy own the A's and they basically

02:05:38.210 --> 02:05:41.869
just turned him into a farm team. And what it

02:05:41.869 --> 02:05:43.909
took, yeah, what it took for that to end was

02:05:43.909 --> 02:05:47.250
Arnold Johnson's death. And that's where Charlie

02:05:47.250 --> 02:05:52.000
Finley comes in. Yeah, the quote from the Kansas

02:05:52.000 --> 02:05:54.640
City Star, this is from Ernie Mel. For years,

02:05:54.760 --> 02:05:57.239
Kansas City had been a great Yankees farm club.

02:05:57.439 --> 02:06:01.659
I mean, it is a major league team sending everybody

02:06:01.659 --> 02:06:04.680
to the Yankees. This is before free agency, too.

02:06:04.800 --> 02:06:08.500
But when Arnold Johnson did pass away and ownership

02:06:08.500 --> 02:06:11.579
groups started to pop up in Kansas City saying,

02:06:11.739 --> 02:06:13.859
we want to make this work, we want to make this

02:06:13.859 --> 02:06:17.630
work, Charlie was never shy about. I don't want

02:06:17.630 --> 02:06:21.289
to stay in Kansas City. And did ultimately win

02:06:21.289 --> 02:06:24.789
the bid to get the Kansas City A's. How did Charlie

02:06:24.789 --> 02:06:27.210
get his money? It's sort of fascinating. He's

02:06:27.210 --> 02:06:30.149
a dude from the Midwest. He's a self -made millionaire

02:06:30.149 --> 02:06:33.590
through the insurance world after him nearly

02:06:33.590 --> 02:06:37.170
dying of tuberculosis when he was in his 20s.

02:06:37.350 --> 02:06:39.489
And he used that time that he was on the hospital

02:06:39.489 --> 02:06:41.590
bed to say, hmm, I could probably make money

02:06:41.590 --> 02:06:43.710
off of this, off of insurance. And that's what

02:06:43.710 --> 02:06:45.090
he did. He became one of the best travelers,

02:06:45.329 --> 02:06:47.779
you know, the company travelers. insurance agents

02:06:47.779 --> 02:06:50.180
in the country, making himself a millionaire,

02:06:50.420 --> 02:06:52.520
making himself self -owned. He was based out

02:06:52.520 --> 02:06:55.239
of Chicago. When the Philadelphia A's first became

02:06:55.239 --> 02:06:58.520
available, he tried to buy them first. The Mack

02:06:58.520 --> 02:07:00.859
family, he was in touch with them, but he was

02:07:00.859 --> 02:07:04.060
spurned by them, eventually going to Johnson.

02:07:04.260 --> 02:07:06.140
Then he tried to put in a bid for the Tigers.

02:07:06.239 --> 02:07:08.500
That went to Fetzer. He went in for a bid for

02:07:08.500 --> 02:07:10.880
the White Sox. That went to Vec. He keeps getting

02:07:10.880 --> 02:07:13.960
rejected on trying to be an owner. And it's not

02:07:13.960 --> 02:07:16.020
because he's too poor to be an owner. It's just...

02:07:16.159 --> 02:07:18.359
Again, the politics and the strings that are

02:07:18.359 --> 02:07:19.960
being pulled behind the scenes by the men that

02:07:19.960 --> 02:07:22.060
are already in the building, because Finley does

02:07:22.060 --> 02:07:25.100
not have a way into baseball. But finally, in

02:07:25.100 --> 02:07:28.359
December of 1960 is when he finally buys the

02:07:28.359 --> 02:07:31.760
club in Kansas City and almost immediately is

02:07:31.760 --> 02:07:33.640
saying, no, no, no, I want to move this team

02:07:33.640 --> 02:07:35.079
to Atlanta. I want to move this team to Dallas.

02:07:35.159 --> 02:07:37.619
I want to move this team to Louisville. And the

02:07:37.619 --> 02:07:39.699
American League owners were saying. You just

02:07:39.699 --> 02:07:42.420
got the team. This team just arrived in Kansas

02:07:42.420 --> 02:07:45.039
City. We cannot be moving them. In fact, he actually

02:07:45.039 --> 02:07:46.800
announced that he was going to be moving the

02:07:46.800 --> 02:07:49.239
team to Louisville without notifying the rest

02:07:49.239 --> 02:07:50.960
of his American League compatriots and saying,

02:07:51.079 --> 02:07:53.520
all right, I've got a lease signed. I'm moving

02:07:53.520 --> 02:07:55.500
down to Kentucky. There's nothing you can do

02:07:55.500 --> 02:07:57.840
about it. And the American League owners immediately

02:07:57.840 --> 02:08:02.000
all voted 100 % to zero. No, you cannot move

02:08:02.000 --> 02:08:04.210
this team because you didn't let us know. He

02:08:04.210 --> 02:08:06.789
was fighting the city of Kansas City for years

02:08:06.789 --> 02:08:08.850
about Municipal Stadium, about, I don't like

02:08:08.850 --> 02:08:10.850
this ballpark. You didn't build a very good ballpark.

02:08:10.909 --> 02:08:12.770
I need to move. I'm going to move. All these

02:08:12.770 --> 02:08:15.550
cities want me. Not really that many cities wanted

02:08:15.550 --> 02:08:17.510
Kansas City because they weren't very good. But

02:08:17.510 --> 02:08:19.710
the small little seeds that he was planting,

02:08:19.850 --> 02:08:22.949
that Charlie Finley was creating a great farm

02:08:22.949 --> 02:08:25.890
system. This is where, again, we talk about the

02:08:25.890 --> 02:08:28.829
winning started to shift, where Charlie understood,

02:08:29.069 --> 02:08:32.189
I need to develop something that has scouting,

02:08:32.189 --> 02:08:34.750
that has player development. We haven't talked

02:08:34.750 --> 02:08:37.369
at all in this podcast series about the advent

02:08:37.369 --> 02:08:41.029
of the first year player draft in 1965. Charlie

02:08:41.029 --> 02:08:44.350
Finley took advantage of this by far. He was

02:08:44.350 --> 02:08:47.109
one of the best drafters and helped that he had

02:08:47.109 --> 02:08:50.630
some dynastic teams coming out of Arizona State,

02:08:50.850 --> 02:08:54.859
the Reggie Jacksons of the world, the Rick Mondays

02:08:54.859 --> 02:08:57.100
of the world, the Sal Bandos of the world, that

02:08:57.100 --> 02:09:00.439
became centerpieces of that Dynasty A's team,

02:09:00.619 --> 02:09:03.539
among a handful of others. But his success in

02:09:03.539 --> 02:09:06.300
the draft started to realize, okay, I've got

02:09:06.300 --> 02:09:09.739
a team coming here, and if the city of Kansas

02:09:09.739 --> 02:09:11.920
City isn't going to keep me around, I'm going

02:09:11.920 --> 02:09:13.600
to go to the city that wants me, and that's going

02:09:13.600 --> 02:09:18.819
to build me a brand new grand coliseum in Oakland,

02:09:18.960 --> 02:09:21.279
California. Now, Oakland, if you're not familiar

02:09:21.279 --> 02:09:24.489
with the Bay Area, Obviously is much smaller

02:09:24.489 --> 02:09:27.409
than San Francisco. San Francisco already has

02:09:27.409 --> 02:09:29.329
the Giants at this point. They have Candlestick

02:09:29.329 --> 02:09:34.770
Park, another giant sort of multi -use football

02:09:34.770 --> 02:09:38.130
and baseball. This one was meant to be multi

02:09:38.130 --> 02:09:40.689
-use eventually, but it was built big enough

02:09:40.689 --> 02:09:43.350
just to be for baseball in the beginning. And

02:09:43.350 --> 02:09:46.329
Oakland is sort of the little brother. I know

02:09:46.329 --> 02:09:48.329
maybe some people from Oakland will hate to hear

02:09:48.329 --> 02:09:50.329
that, but it is the truth. It is the little brother

02:09:50.329 --> 02:09:52.859
to San Francisco. It has a lot of culture. It

02:09:52.859 --> 02:09:56.000
has a lot of unique identity versus San Francisco.

02:09:56.079 --> 02:09:58.699
They really are a yin and a yang working together

02:09:58.699 --> 02:10:02.039
as a duo of cities in the Bay Area. But yet,

02:10:02.079 --> 02:10:04.579
a lot of fans in the East Bay were still fans

02:10:04.579 --> 02:10:07.119
of the Giants because they were just fired up

02:10:07.119 --> 02:10:09.680
that a team had come across the country to be

02:10:09.680 --> 02:10:13.500
in their city. But now that the Kansas City A's

02:10:13.500 --> 02:10:16.079
are coming, there's a mixed bag of feeling like,

02:10:16.100 --> 02:10:19.170
well, this team's not very good, but... I guess

02:10:19.170 --> 02:10:21.029
it's nice to have a team, and it's nice to have

02:10:21.029 --> 02:10:23.390
a ballpark on our side of the bay. We don't have

02:10:23.390 --> 02:10:26.390
to cross the bridge to get things ready. Ultimately,

02:10:26.409 --> 02:10:29.710
he did get to go to Oakland, not without a lot

02:10:29.710 --> 02:10:32.689
of chaos. In Kansas City, of trying to make changes

02:10:32.689 --> 02:10:35.430
to Municipal Stadium, of trying to make silly

02:10:35.430 --> 02:10:38.270
home run porches as he was complaining about

02:10:38.270 --> 02:10:40.130
the New York Yankees home run porch. The pennant

02:10:40.130 --> 02:10:42.149
porch. The pennant porch where he literally,

02:10:42.329 --> 02:10:44.029
I'll put a picture in the sub stack, where he

02:10:44.029 --> 02:10:47.409
literally moved the fence into one point that's

02:10:47.409 --> 02:10:49.329
the same distance in right field like the short

02:10:49.329 --> 02:10:51.890
porch at Yankee Stadium. Saying, well, the Yankees

02:10:51.890 --> 02:10:53.569
are allowed to have it, why can't I? Well, it's

02:10:53.569 --> 02:10:55.710
because the old Yankee Stadium was grandfathered

02:10:55.710 --> 02:10:57.789
into the rule that the line had to be at least

02:10:57.789 --> 02:11:00.699
315 feet down the line. And he had, well, I'm

02:11:00.699 --> 02:11:02.720
going to put a statue of Connie Mack in center

02:11:02.720 --> 02:11:05.520
field since at this time Yankee Stadium Monument

02:11:05.520 --> 02:11:08.060
Park was in center field at old Yankee Stadium.

02:11:08.319 --> 02:11:11.199
And again, he was shot down. So he's not getting

02:11:11.199 --> 02:11:13.600
his way in Kansas City. He moves the team to

02:11:13.600 --> 02:11:17.859
Oakland. And honestly, this is where things kind

02:11:17.859 --> 02:11:19.899
of mellow out because the team's getting so good.

02:11:20.159 --> 02:11:22.779
How familiar are you with the donkey, the one,

02:11:22.779 --> 02:11:28.350
the only Charlie O? Well, I. I'm familiar with

02:11:28.350 --> 02:11:31.369
the Oakland A's, the three -year run. Is that

02:11:31.369 --> 02:11:33.689
the last three -peat? The Yankees, did they have

02:11:33.689 --> 02:11:35.189
a three -peat? The Yankees had a three -peat

02:11:35.189 --> 02:11:36.609
in the 90s. They were the last one to do it.

02:11:36.630 --> 02:11:40.430
That was the last one, but my God, they saw some

02:11:40.430 --> 02:11:46.149
success in Oakland. Charlie O, there is actually

02:11:46.149 --> 02:11:48.390
a method to the madness behind Charlie Finley's

02:11:48.390 --> 02:11:51.710
idea that people would want to see his ass. I

02:11:51.710 --> 02:11:54.430
just love that line from Mustaches and Mayhem.

02:11:54.890 --> 02:11:58.079
Charlie O was a mule. And it was meant to be

02:11:58.079 --> 02:12:02.399
a team mascot in a way, a distractor in a way

02:12:02.399 --> 02:12:05.220
in Kansas City. The other thing about Municipal

02:12:05.220 --> 02:12:07.640
Ballpark back in KC, there was a really steep

02:12:07.640 --> 02:12:11.159
grass berm in right field where it was really

02:12:11.159 --> 02:12:15.380
hard to mow. So he actually created a children's

02:12:15.380 --> 02:12:17.960
petting zoo that featured zoo animals that could

02:12:17.960 --> 02:12:21.739
also nibble on the grass to mow it and to sort

02:12:21.739 --> 02:12:25.109
of keep it in a decent length. in the meanwhile

02:12:25.109 --> 02:12:28.029
charlie o becomes a team mascot everything was

02:12:28.029 --> 02:12:31.390
meant to kind of distract from what's going on

02:12:31.390 --> 02:12:34.109
the field to hey look at this cute horse that's

02:12:34.109 --> 02:12:36.710
uh or cute mule that's got green and gold and

02:12:36.710 --> 02:12:39.529
it's got uh i painted its hair to to match the

02:12:39.529 --> 02:12:41.670
team it's meant to be for team spirit wait was

02:12:41.670 --> 02:12:44.409
it a mule or a donkey i don't even know okay

02:12:44.409 --> 02:12:47.789
oh my my uh my college team's mascot was a mule

02:12:47.789 --> 02:12:50.449
so like very particular on that one the way it

02:12:50.449 --> 02:12:52.430
all began finley always on the lookout for new

02:12:52.430 --> 02:12:55.760
ideas called his business partner at four o 'clock

02:12:55.760 --> 02:12:58.140
in the morning after reading an article in the

02:12:58.140 --> 02:13:01.100
chicago tribune about how missouri mules which

02:13:01.100 --> 02:13:04.960
is what charlie o was uh helped allies win world

02:13:04.960 --> 02:13:08.220
war one by lugging ammunition and supplies through

02:13:08.220 --> 02:13:10.899
the mud and the snow of france faster than the

02:13:10.899 --> 02:13:13.800
germans could So Finley ordered to get the finest

02:13:13.800 --> 02:13:17.140
mule in the state of Missouri. And ultimately,

02:13:17.199 --> 02:13:20.079
Charlie O is arrived, and he is living the life.

02:13:20.239 --> 02:13:22.560
He's driven everywhere in a trailer with air

02:13:22.560 --> 02:13:24.420
conditioning. He's traveling with the team in

02:13:24.420 --> 02:13:26.880
first class, mind you. He's staying in the team

02:13:26.880 --> 02:13:29.619
hotels when they're on the road. He is truly...

02:13:30.000 --> 02:13:32.079
for lack of a better term, a show pony, even

02:13:32.079 --> 02:13:34.159
though he's not technically a pony. But again,

02:13:34.220 --> 02:13:36.079
he's meant to be distracting. He's meant to be

02:13:36.079 --> 02:13:39.300
something to endear. But when the A's did move

02:13:39.300 --> 02:13:43.199
to Oakland after the 1967 season, Charlie O did

02:13:43.199 --> 02:13:45.659
come with them. But it's kind of ironic that

02:13:45.659 --> 02:13:47.979
the dynasty ends and free agency is beginning.

02:13:48.619 --> 02:13:51.119
When Charlie O died. Charlie O did die in December

02:13:51.119 --> 02:13:56.220
of 1976. A good eight -year run as the unofficial

02:13:56.220 --> 02:13:59.479
team mascot of the Kansas City A's. But he was

02:13:59.479 --> 02:14:01.159
everywhere. And you could not escape Charlie

02:14:01.159 --> 02:14:03.239
O during this time in the A's because Charlie

02:14:03.239 --> 02:14:06.039
Finley was a man of ideas. And he was not afraid

02:14:06.039 --> 02:14:09.000
to share those ideas. And I just want to list

02:14:09.000 --> 02:14:11.760
a few of the ideas that he was ahead of the game

02:14:11.760 --> 02:14:13.859
on here that I think a lot of people need to

02:14:13.859 --> 02:14:17.520
understand. Okay, yes, he was crazy. But he was...

02:14:17.789 --> 02:14:21.010
really ahead of his time. He was first to the

02:14:21.010 --> 02:14:23.930
punch on interleague play. He was begging for

02:14:23.930 --> 02:14:25.970
interleague play, especially given the fact in

02:14:25.970 --> 02:14:28.409
the Bay Area, the Giants across the Bay, their

02:14:28.409 --> 02:14:31.760
popularity, the A's here in the East Bay. They're

02:14:31.760 --> 02:14:33.300
getting popular. They're being a good team. How

02:14:33.300 --> 02:14:35.199
great would it be to have a crosstown series?

02:14:35.319 --> 02:14:38.380
We never saw this back in New York between the

02:14:38.380 --> 02:14:41.199
Yankees and the Brooklyn Dodgers. Only see it

02:14:41.199 --> 02:14:43.420
in the World Series. He was also the first to

02:14:43.420 --> 02:14:45.619
push for the World Series and for the All -Star

02:14:45.619 --> 02:14:48.460
Games to be played at night, trying to let people

02:14:48.460 --> 02:14:50.340
to arrive, come off work. Remember how we talked

02:14:50.340 --> 02:14:52.600
about during World War II and during the Great

02:14:52.600 --> 02:14:54.720
Depression how important it was to have night

02:14:54.720 --> 02:14:57.159
games and how ownership and commissioners felt,

02:14:57.279 --> 02:14:58.779
yeah, this is a great way to have people come

02:14:58.779 --> 02:15:01.359
from the factories and watch. But yet still,

02:15:01.699 --> 02:15:04.819
World Series games were only being played during

02:15:04.819 --> 02:15:08.020
the daytime, which to us now, we don't know it

02:15:08.020 --> 02:15:10.220
any differently. But it's wild to think, wait

02:15:10.220 --> 02:15:12.600
a minute, you had to convince people that you

02:15:12.600 --> 02:15:14.199
wanted a night game for the most important games

02:15:14.199 --> 02:15:16.800
of the season? That's bonkers to me. You know,

02:15:16.819 --> 02:15:19.500
I'm going to do a first on this podcast, I think,

02:15:19.560 --> 02:15:22.020
and actually talk about baseball stats. Is that

02:15:22.020 --> 02:15:24.239
allowed? I don't know. Are we allowed to do baseball

02:15:24.239 --> 02:15:27.159
stats? One of my favorite stats, just to talk,

02:15:27.159 --> 02:15:29.079
since we're talking about these Oakland teams,

02:15:29.220 --> 02:15:33.539
is the 1972 World Series. Do you know who the

02:15:33.539 --> 02:15:36.840
MVP of that World Series was? Was it not Gene

02:15:36.840 --> 02:15:39.899
Tennant? It was Gene Tennant. And his regular

02:15:39.899 --> 02:15:44.800
season hit five home runs. In the 1972 World

02:15:44.800 --> 02:15:49.439
Series, which was a seven -game series, he hit

02:15:49.439 --> 02:15:55.399
four home runs. And of the... 16 runs the Athletics

02:15:55.399 --> 02:15:58.239
scored. He knocked in nine of them. Like, it's

02:15:58.239 --> 02:16:00.539
the most insane. This guy just went on a run.

02:16:01.199 --> 02:16:03.920
And I know it has nothing to do with Charlie

02:16:03.920 --> 02:16:06.420
Finley, but I figure at some point we got to

02:16:06.420 --> 02:16:08.840
talk some baseball at some point on here. So

02:16:08.840 --> 02:16:10.359
I just wanted to bring that up because it's one

02:16:10.359 --> 02:16:12.640
of my favorite, like, World Series facts about

02:16:12.640 --> 02:16:16.100
how Gene Tennant just went off in a very low

02:16:16.100 --> 02:16:18.979
-scoring seven -game series to become the MVP.

02:16:19.529 --> 02:16:21.609
Well, let's get into some of the players that

02:16:21.609 --> 02:16:24.109
Charlie Finley was able to acquire. And the other

02:16:24.109 --> 02:16:27.029
thing that we need to mention, as the A's start

02:16:27.029 --> 02:16:30.689
to show signs of life in the early 70s and start

02:16:30.689 --> 02:16:32.729
to realize, okay, there is a pretty good team

02:16:32.729 --> 02:16:36.110
here that they have put together. But Finley

02:16:36.110 --> 02:16:38.989
was always in the way of something. He was always

02:16:38.989 --> 02:16:43.190
arguing about player bonuses, arguing about who

02:16:43.190 --> 02:16:46.620
was available, arguing about... uh trades and

02:16:46.620 --> 02:16:49.239
he was essentially running the team even for

02:16:49.239 --> 02:16:51.700
the manager dick williams one of the best managers

02:16:51.700 --> 02:16:55.459
to ever do it to ever work from the dugout but

02:16:55.459 --> 02:16:58.139
this is a frayed relationship charlie finley

02:16:58.139 --> 02:17:00.219
wanted all the attention as he usually did in

02:17:00.219 --> 02:17:02.920
the early 70s but he's now realizing wait a minute

02:17:02.920 --> 02:17:05.819
my team's really really good and maybe i can

02:17:05.819 --> 02:17:07.620
step out of the way some of the things that he

02:17:07.620 --> 02:17:11.059
used to do that would try to divert attention

02:17:11.059 --> 02:17:13.940
from the game He had Harvey the Mechanical Rabbit

02:17:13.940 --> 02:17:16.059
and Mr. Blowhard. Are you familiar with these

02:17:16.059 --> 02:17:18.719
two? I know Harvey the Mechanical Rabbit was

02:17:18.719 --> 02:17:21.760
to bring the baseballs to the ump, right? Yeah,

02:17:21.780 --> 02:17:23.639
he was sick of seeing the umpire having the whole

02:17:23.639 --> 02:17:27.340
baseballs in his pocket. Yeah, yeah. And it had

02:17:27.340 --> 02:17:29.620
lights and looked kind of demonic from all the

02:17:29.620 --> 02:17:32.780
videos I've seen. Mr. Blowhard took care of home

02:17:32.780 --> 02:17:35.040
plate for umpires, where he would just go up

02:17:35.040 --> 02:17:37.340
to home plate and... You know, push a bunch of

02:17:37.340 --> 02:17:40.579
air and move on. And, of course, that took forever,

02:17:40.680 --> 02:17:43.760
too. Of course, we talked about Charlie O. The

02:17:43.760 --> 02:17:46.559
Finley Fund scoreboard that he tried to install

02:17:46.559 --> 02:17:49.200
in Kansas City, this is, again, trying to copy

02:17:49.200 --> 02:17:51.420
Bill Veck and the exploding scoreboard and the

02:17:51.420 --> 02:17:53.559
exploding lights and trying to do this, spending

02:17:53.559 --> 02:17:55.700
millions of dollars on a scoreboard was unheard

02:17:55.700 --> 02:17:58.340
of at the time. And maybe one of his most famous

02:17:58.340 --> 02:18:03.840
diversions and ideas was the Orange Baseballs.

02:18:04.350 --> 02:18:06.690
The orange baseballs he carried with him everywhere.

02:18:07.090 --> 02:18:09.909
Charlie had this idea to say, we shouldn't use

02:18:09.909 --> 02:18:11.450
white baseballs anymore. They're too hard to

02:18:11.450 --> 02:18:13.149
see. Let's use orange. Because at this time,

02:18:13.209 --> 02:18:16.690
tennis is switching to a yellow tennis ball for

02:18:16.690 --> 02:18:18.590
their premier events. So he said, well, why can't

02:18:18.590 --> 02:18:20.549
we do the same? Literally everywhere you went,

02:18:20.649 --> 02:18:22.610
you could find Charlie Finley holding one of

02:18:22.610 --> 02:18:24.270
these orange baseballs saying, here, it's a prototype.

02:18:24.389 --> 02:18:26.290
Let's do this. Let's do this. Other ideas. He

02:18:26.290 --> 02:18:28.389
was first to the designated hitter. He was first

02:18:28.389 --> 02:18:30.209
to, again, we talked about interleague play.

02:18:30.329 --> 02:18:33.469
He wanted a pinch runner. freely or you can use

02:18:33.469 --> 02:18:36.170
a designated runner in addition to a designated

02:18:36.170 --> 02:18:38.510
hitter he also was one of the first people to

02:18:38.510 --> 02:18:42.129
say let's speed up the game he installed a clock

02:18:42.129 --> 02:18:45.510
in his scoreboard to enforce a long ignored rule

02:18:45.510 --> 02:18:48.430
that mandated no more than 20 seconds between

02:18:48.430 --> 02:18:50.950
pitches he was ahead of it on the pitch timer

02:18:50.950 --> 02:18:53.950
50 years in advance trying to encourage speeding

02:18:53.950 --> 02:18:56.600
up the game saying some pitches are taking way

02:18:56.600 --> 02:18:59.399
too long. And all the while, his team is still

02:18:59.399 --> 02:19:03.299
winning games. And in 1972, they win their first

02:19:03.299 --> 02:19:06.540
World Series in Oakland. Everyone is going nuts.

02:19:06.680 --> 02:19:09.600
Everybody's enjoying what it's been. But I think

02:19:09.600 --> 02:19:11.459
one of the great quotes, again, from Mustaches

02:19:11.459 --> 02:19:13.879
and Mayhem, because Charlie made everything about

02:19:13.879 --> 02:19:15.760
him, the Oakland Tribune wrote, Finley makes

02:19:15.760 --> 02:19:18.950
the games incidental. After the 1973 World Series

02:19:18.950 --> 02:19:21.069
is over, I had to go back and read about the

02:19:21.069 --> 02:19:23.290
games to see what happened. This is the World

02:19:23.290 --> 02:19:25.790
Series that Charlie Finley is still distracting

02:19:25.790 --> 02:19:28.329
folks. It's funny you mention speeding up the

02:19:28.329 --> 02:19:31.110
games too, because if you look in the 1970s,

02:19:31.110 --> 02:19:34.530
especially the late 60s and early 70s, the games

02:19:34.530 --> 02:19:37.209
were not long compared to today. I mean, today

02:19:37.209 --> 02:19:39.989
the average game time is 2 hours and 41 minutes.

02:19:40.149 --> 02:19:43.629
In 1972, it was 2 hours and 23 minutes. So it

02:19:43.629 --> 02:19:45.770
was already 18 minutes on average shorter than

02:19:45.770 --> 02:19:49.870
we've got today. And they didn't have the Manfred

02:19:49.870 --> 02:19:52.590
runner on second that we have now to shorten

02:19:52.590 --> 02:19:57.329
those extra inning games. So it wasn't like baseball

02:19:57.329 --> 02:20:00.610
was dragging. I guess maybe the way we look at

02:20:00.610 --> 02:20:03.190
it now, we're like, oh, the game is too slow

02:20:03.190 --> 02:20:05.489
today compared to what it was. Maybe that was

02:20:05.489 --> 02:20:08.149
it for him because back in the 1920s and 30s

02:20:08.149 --> 02:20:09.670
when he was growing up, games were under two

02:20:09.670 --> 02:20:13.459
hours on average. He just wanted people in and

02:20:13.459 --> 02:20:15.440
out, wanted to make as much money and win games.

02:20:15.559 --> 02:20:18.879
But his relationship with players was strained.

02:20:18.879 --> 02:20:21.440
And quite frankly, the A's of the 70s united

02:20:21.440 --> 02:20:25.500
against Charlie Finley. to win despite of Charlie.

02:20:25.840 --> 02:20:28.200
Reggie Jackson hated Charlie Finley. We'll talk

02:20:28.200 --> 02:20:30.719
about Reggie in the birth of free agency in episode

02:20:30.719 --> 02:20:33.520
five. He tried to sell virtually his entire team

02:20:33.520 --> 02:20:35.680
in 1976, knowing he wasn't going to be able to

02:20:35.680 --> 02:20:38.899
keep them from free agency coming up following

02:20:38.899 --> 02:20:41.139
that season. He traded Reggie Jackson during

02:20:41.139 --> 02:20:42.780
spring training, a handful of others during spring

02:20:42.780 --> 02:20:44.559
training, tried to virtually sell the entire

02:20:44.559 --> 02:20:46.459
team for three and a half million dollars in

02:20:46.459 --> 02:20:49.520
1976 in a trade that was blocked by Bowie Kuhn.

02:20:49.579 --> 02:20:53.860
But his most... maybe infamous moment as the

02:20:53.860 --> 02:20:57.319
man in charge of the A's came in the 1973 World

02:20:57.319 --> 02:20:59.920
Series. This is because of his treatment of Mike

02:20:59.920 --> 02:21:02.540
Andrews and what it meant for the rest of the

02:21:02.540 --> 02:21:05.000
A's. This was the beginning of the end for Charlie

02:21:05.000 --> 02:21:07.479
Finley having trust within his organization.

02:21:07.799 --> 02:21:10.819
Mike Andrews was a perfectly fine infielder.

02:21:11.129 --> 02:21:13.250
You know, second baseman, didn't hit hard, but

02:21:13.250 --> 02:21:15.030
is supposed to be known for his glove. But he

02:21:15.030 --> 02:21:16.549
had been dealing with shoulder issues throughout

02:21:16.549 --> 02:21:19.670
the season and was healthy enough to come into

02:21:19.670 --> 02:21:22.909
the World Series. However, during the year in

02:21:22.909 --> 02:21:25.290
1973, he made a million trades, as he usually

02:21:25.290 --> 02:21:29.010
did, and he found himself short an infielder,

02:21:29.069 --> 02:21:32.670
but having an outfielder, Manny Trio, available.

02:21:33.469 --> 02:21:35.649
but he was signed after September 1st. Meaning,

02:21:35.729 --> 02:21:37.790
if you were signed after September 1st, the other

02:21:37.790 --> 02:21:40.229
team had to approve you playing in the World

02:21:40.229 --> 02:21:42.370
Series. And they're playing the Mets in 1973.

02:21:42.809 --> 02:21:44.790
The Mets said, no, Manny Trio cannot be on this

02:21:44.790 --> 02:21:47.610
roster. You have to carry Mike Andrews. Charlie

02:21:47.610 --> 02:21:49.409
was livid about this. He did not want to use

02:21:49.409 --> 02:21:52.670
him. Dick Williams liked Mike Andrews. This is

02:21:52.670 --> 02:21:55.489
terrible. I don't want this guy on my team. This

02:21:55.489 --> 02:21:57.209
is brutal. He has a bad shoulder, all this stuff.

02:21:57.450 --> 02:22:00.309
Well, they play the games. And lo and behold,

02:22:00.530 --> 02:22:03.930
and in game two, The Mets beat the A's 10 -7,

02:22:04.149 --> 02:22:07.850
aided by two key errors by Mike Andrews defensively.

02:22:07.930 --> 02:22:10.209
So Charlie Finley storms down to the clubhouse,

02:22:10.329 --> 02:22:13.190
brings Mike Andrews, while he's meeting with

02:22:13.190 --> 02:22:15.729
the media, to the doctor's room and says, sign

02:22:15.729 --> 02:22:17.610
this. And Mike Andrews is going, what is this?

02:22:18.030 --> 02:22:21.670
This is a release to say, I am injured. I could

02:22:21.670 --> 02:22:23.870
be taking off this World Series roster. Manny

02:22:23.870 --> 02:22:26.649
Trio will be my replacement. He goes, I'm healthy.

02:22:26.809 --> 02:22:28.750
I've just made two mistakes. I'm not signing

02:22:28.750 --> 02:22:31.780
this. And Charlie Finley said, The heck you are.

02:22:31.819 --> 02:22:33.520
You are signing this to help the team. Don't

02:22:33.520 --> 02:22:35.979
you want to help the team? And Mike finds himself

02:22:35.979 --> 02:22:38.180
stuck between a rock and a hard place. It's just

02:22:38.180 --> 02:22:40.020
him and Charlie and the team doctor right there.

02:22:40.040 --> 02:22:41.979
The team doctor has already signed off on this,

02:22:42.059 --> 02:22:44.420
saying, you have a bum shoulder. You're out for

02:22:44.420 --> 02:22:47.239
the World Series. Well, ultimately, Mike Andrews

02:22:47.239 --> 02:22:50.040
did sign it and is down and out. He goes back

02:22:50.040 --> 02:22:51.840
to New England to watch Game 3 as the team goes

02:22:51.840 --> 02:22:53.760
back to New York. And then word gets out within

02:22:53.760 --> 02:22:56.520
the clubhouse what Charlie did to Mike Andrews.

02:22:56.520 --> 02:22:58.219
Not only did it get out in the clubhouse, it

02:22:58.219 --> 02:23:00.319
got all the way up. to Commissioner Bowie Kuhn

02:23:00.319 --> 02:23:03.520
and ordered Mike Andrews to be reinstated in

02:23:03.520 --> 02:23:07.340
time for Game 4 in New York. And Mike Andrews

02:23:07.340 --> 02:23:10.540
comes to pinch hit in Game 4 against the Mets

02:23:10.540 --> 02:23:13.899
and gets a standing ovation from the Mets fans

02:23:13.899 --> 02:23:17.739
for how poorly Mike Andrews was treated by Charlie

02:23:17.739 --> 02:23:21.700
Finley. It's one of the worst chapters in Charlie

02:23:21.700 --> 02:23:24.520
Finley to make up an injury for a guy that he

02:23:24.520 --> 02:23:26.940
was convinced was going to hurt his team. Although

02:23:26.940 --> 02:23:29.100
it hurt Andrews, a lot of people were glad it

02:23:29.100 --> 02:23:30.940
happened because it was the first time it directed

02:23:30.940 --> 02:23:36.020
attention at the way Finley treated people, even

02:23:36.020 --> 02:23:38.139
if it was far from the first time he had treated

02:23:38.139 --> 02:23:40.299
them that way. All of a sudden, he was not just

02:23:40.299 --> 02:23:43.059
a quaint old guy, a fellow who did funny things,

02:23:43.219 --> 02:23:45.520
but a man who could hurt people, and he did.

02:23:45.719 --> 02:23:47.959
What makes that Mike Andrews story even worse,

02:23:48.180 --> 02:23:51.319
that World Series Game 4 plate appearance. His

02:23:51.319 --> 02:23:52.979
last major league plate appearance, he never

02:23:52.979 --> 02:23:56.180
played in the majors again after that, only in

02:23:56.180 --> 02:23:59.760
1975 playing in Japan. So that was literally

02:23:59.760 --> 02:24:03.340
the end of this guy's career. And this is an

02:24:03.340 --> 02:24:05.559
epic World Series. I would encourage folks to

02:24:05.559 --> 02:24:08.000
go back and watch it on YouTube. 1973 World Series,

02:24:08.159 --> 02:24:10.059
go seven games. Willie Mays, final World Series,

02:24:10.219 --> 02:24:12.260
one of the best summers of baseball of all time.

02:24:14.700 --> 02:24:17.219
The A's win in seven. Yogi Berra was the manager

02:24:17.219 --> 02:24:20.360
of the Mets at the time. He comes over to congratulate

02:24:20.360 --> 02:24:23.600
Dick Williams and say, hey, you know, well played,

02:24:23.680 --> 02:24:27.540
good job. And it was just quiet and subdued,

02:24:27.540 --> 02:24:29.920
and there wasn't a real celebration going on

02:24:29.920 --> 02:24:31.979
in the clubhouse. It's because Dick Williams

02:24:31.979 --> 02:24:34.350
just told his team. I'm resigning. I don't want

02:24:34.350 --> 02:24:36.530
to work for Charlie Finley anymore. And the A's

02:24:36.530 --> 02:24:38.909
are going, oh my God, we love Dick Williams.

02:24:39.049 --> 02:24:40.510
He's the guy that's keeping us together. We all

02:24:40.510 --> 02:24:42.850
hated Charlie because we loved playing for Dick.

02:24:42.950 --> 02:24:44.950
How on earth are we going to keep moving on?

02:24:45.090 --> 02:24:47.569
Well, the mistakes started to pile up now for

02:24:47.569 --> 02:24:50.149
Charlie Finley as he's forced the resignation,

02:24:50.290 --> 02:24:52.350
not forced, but encouraged the resignation of

02:24:52.350 --> 02:24:55.129
Dick Williams. We talked about the Catfish Hunter

02:24:55.129 --> 02:24:58.469
issue in 1974, which leads him to becoming a

02:24:58.469 --> 02:25:02.209
free agent in 1975. And the cracks are beginning

02:25:02.209 --> 02:25:05.670
to show. for Charlie Finley. Once the Sites decision

02:25:05.670 --> 02:25:08.989
came down, that was the end. This was all over

02:25:08.989 --> 02:25:10.469
for Charlie Finley. The way that he was able

02:25:10.469 --> 02:25:12.930
to develop these players, these stars that he

02:25:12.930 --> 02:25:15.670
had, like we talked about with Gene Tennis, Raleigh

02:25:15.670 --> 02:25:18.129
Fingers being acquired. We talk about losing

02:25:18.129 --> 02:25:22.649
Catfish Hunter, Reggie Jackson, Sal Bando, Burt

02:25:22.649 --> 02:25:25.850
Campanaris. I mean, there are some legends in

02:25:25.850 --> 02:25:28.190
the Bay Area that played on these teams. But

02:25:28.190 --> 02:25:31.909
as soon as Charlie had to bargain with players

02:25:31.909 --> 02:25:35.100
as equals, He had to look an agent in the eye

02:25:35.100 --> 02:25:38.540
and say, well, let's agree on this. He was not

02:25:38.540 --> 02:25:43.379
capable of compromise or agreement or paying

02:25:43.379 --> 02:25:45.459
a player more money given what he had been paying

02:25:45.459 --> 02:25:47.579
his entire time. Charlie loved to do under the

02:25:47.579 --> 02:25:50.500
table bonuses. He would invest in the stock market

02:25:50.500 --> 02:25:53.219
for his players behalf. He would let them keep

02:25:53.219 --> 02:25:55.600
all the wins and Charlie would absorb all the

02:25:55.600 --> 02:25:58.680
losses. He thought this was sort of a... How

02:25:58.680 --> 02:26:01.180
dare you bite the hand that feeds you free agency

02:26:01.180 --> 02:26:03.440
is gonna kill this game and it killed Charlie

02:26:03.440 --> 02:26:05.360
Finley's ownership And what could have been for

02:26:05.360 --> 02:26:06.719
the A's? I mean they want to kept on winning

02:26:06.719 --> 02:26:09.239
in the 70s if it wasn't for free agency and despite

02:26:09.239 --> 02:26:12.120
Reggie Jackson hating him and the The mustaches

02:26:12.120 --> 02:26:14.799
that those teams had and the white shoes the

02:26:14.799 --> 02:26:16.420
green and gold they were the only team in green

02:26:16.420 --> 02:26:17.899
and gold They still are the only team in green

02:26:17.899 --> 02:26:20.540
and gold, but they were made fun of quite a bit

02:26:20.540 --> 02:26:23.909
for their appearance Didn't matter. The mustaches

02:26:23.909 --> 02:26:25.649
kept winning. Charlie Finley kept winning. But

02:26:25.649 --> 02:26:28.010
once free agency came around, Charlie Finley's

02:26:28.010 --> 02:26:30.329
reign was virtually over just a couple of years

02:26:30.329 --> 02:26:33.670
later. Yeah, we probably in the late if it weren't

02:26:33.670 --> 02:26:36.229
for free agency in the late 70s and early 80s,

02:26:36.229 --> 02:26:38.409
we put a probably seen a series of athletics

02:26:38.409 --> 02:26:41.809
versus Reds World Series because both those teams

02:26:41.809 --> 02:26:44.709
suffered from free agency happening. Like I said,

02:26:44.729 --> 02:26:47.129
the Reds were a team that that refused to sign

02:26:47.129 --> 02:26:49.489
free agents and they went from the big red machine

02:26:49.489 --> 02:26:52.219
to. i don't know what the 80s are but it's not

02:26:52.219 --> 02:26:55.399
good yeah the big red machine uh losing to those

02:26:55.399 --> 02:26:58.659
a's in 1972 and then winning of course in 75

02:26:58.659 --> 02:27:02.879
and 76 so uh then the world changed in 1976.

02:27:03.600 --> 02:27:06.000
then it went downhill yeah then they were down

02:27:06.000 --> 02:27:09.280
to they lost 100 games in 1982 so it went that

02:27:09.280 --> 02:27:12.340
quickly so here's an owner that did not enjoy

02:27:12.340 --> 02:27:15.040
free agency What about the final generation,

02:27:15.120 --> 02:27:16.780
the final chapter of owners that we're going

02:27:16.780 --> 02:27:19.100
to talk about today? Two owners that understood

02:27:19.100 --> 02:27:23.059
the power of free agency and the power of outbidding

02:27:23.059 --> 02:27:25.540
and trying to win games. Next, we're going to

02:27:25.540 --> 02:27:28.159
talk about Ted Turner and George Steinbrenner.

02:27:28.200 --> 02:27:34.319
Stay with us after the break. Okay, now you've

02:27:34.319 --> 02:27:36.680
really made it this far into the program. It's

02:27:36.680 --> 02:27:38.739
time for you to hit subscribe on the sub stack.

02:27:38.879 --> 02:27:41.000
So we really do appreciate everybody who has

02:27:41.000 --> 02:27:43.239
hung with us for the entirety of episodes, whether

02:27:43.239 --> 02:27:46.319
you chop these up and listen in, you know, over

02:27:46.319 --> 02:27:48.020
the course of a week, if you have a long haul

02:27:48.020 --> 02:27:49.799
flight that you want to listen to and knock these

02:27:49.799 --> 02:27:52.260
out. A reminder that we're trying to use these

02:27:52.260 --> 02:27:56.340
as archives and be able to look back in order

02:27:56.340 --> 02:27:59.479
to look forward as we get closer and closer to

02:27:59.479 --> 02:28:02.479
labor negotiations really heating up. We want

02:28:02.479 --> 02:28:04.579
to be able to be the authority to say, well,

02:28:04.700 --> 02:28:07.700
they have all this catalog built up, this understanding

02:28:07.700 --> 02:28:10.700
of how we got here in order to present to you

02:28:10.700 --> 02:28:12.719
the best product possible when we're done with

02:28:12.719 --> 02:28:15.340
this nine -episode run. So this is the final

02:28:15.340 --> 02:28:18.579
break of this show. This is episode three of

02:28:18.579 --> 02:28:20.659
nine. We're really starting to hit our stride.

02:28:20.700 --> 02:28:22.719
So again, you can find all the information to

02:28:22.719 --> 02:28:24.219
follow us and to make sure you stay in the loop

02:28:24.219 --> 02:28:26.600
every time a new episode drops. Appreciate everybody

02:28:26.600 --> 02:28:28.579
so far, and I'll talk to you at the end of the

02:28:28.579 --> 02:28:36.459
episode. I don't know where to begin with Ted

02:28:36.459 --> 02:28:41.139
Turner because this is a man whose entire world,

02:28:41.299 --> 02:28:44.819
the Braves were like a tiny little footnote in

02:28:44.819 --> 02:28:48.139
the legacy that was Ted Turner. Yes, Turner Field

02:28:48.139 --> 02:28:50.500
get built, and yes, TBS and the Superstation,

02:28:50.600 --> 02:28:53.479
and we will talk about all of that. But we have

02:28:53.479 --> 02:28:57.579
to remember about Ted Turner and his philanthropic

02:28:57.579 --> 02:29:00.739
efforts and his sailing and his chaos of his

02:29:00.739 --> 02:29:05.280
20s that the Braves... Yes, he became famous

02:29:05.280 --> 02:29:07.440
from the Braves, but he's really more known worldwide

02:29:07.440 --> 02:29:09.479
for what he did with Turner Communications, what

02:29:09.479 --> 02:29:11.959
he did with CNN, and what he did for the city

02:29:11.959 --> 02:29:16.000
of Atlanta, building it up from a cultural hub

02:29:16.000 --> 02:29:18.819
of saying, we can make 24 -hour news here. We

02:29:18.819 --> 02:29:21.399
can make a brand -new station here. Oh, yeah,

02:29:21.440 --> 02:29:24.100
and I also happen to own the Braves. During the

02:29:24.100 --> 02:29:26.100
70s, I had a really good time to own the Braves,

02:29:26.100 --> 02:29:29.520
but Ted Turner, having just passed about a month

02:29:29.520 --> 02:29:33.430
ago, The obituaries are phenomenal. Atlanta Journal

02:29:33.430 --> 02:29:34.909
-Constitution had a good one. New York Times

02:29:34.909 --> 02:29:37.770
had a really good one, too. This is not about

02:29:37.770 --> 02:29:40.170
the life of Ted Turner, but just sort of how

02:29:40.170 --> 02:29:43.690
he got to the Braves. Because, again, we talked

02:29:43.690 --> 02:29:46.229
about WGN making games available. I think we

02:29:46.229 --> 02:29:47.909
talked to a lot of people a generation older

02:29:47.909 --> 02:29:50.889
than us, Scott. Like, TBS was the Braves, and

02:29:50.889 --> 02:29:53.250
everyone knew, oh, yeah, I can just flip on TBS,

02:29:53.389 --> 02:29:55.409
and I would see a game at 7 .05, and it would

02:29:55.409 --> 02:29:57.469
be the Braves wherever they were playing. Yeah,

02:29:57.510 --> 02:30:01.139
TBS definitely changed the game. how baseball

02:30:01.139 --> 02:30:03.739
media works. Because what a lot of people don't

02:30:03.739 --> 02:30:05.600
realize, you know, we complain about blackouts

02:30:05.600 --> 02:30:08.399
today. We can only, you know, you only get, depending

02:30:08.399 --> 02:30:10.639
on what package you get, like you might only

02:30:10.639 --> 02:30:12.799
get, if I'm a Brewers fan, I might only get 150

02:30:12.799 --> 02:30:17.079
of the 162 games. But in the 50s and 60s and

02:30:17.079 --> 02:30:19.899
leading into the 70s, except for the Cubs with

02:30:19.899 --> 02:30:24.180
WGN, most teams, you only had single digits number

02:30:24.180 --> 02:30:27.459
of games actually broadcast. Most people. listened

02:30:27.459 --> 02:30:29.639
over the radio or went to the game in person.

02:30:29.940 --> 02:30:33.379
And the Braves having almost all their games

02:30:33.379 --> 02:30:36.440
available on TBS to a national audience was a

02:30:36.440 --> 02:30:39.700
game changer. I still have a friend from high

02:30:39.700 --> 02:30:42.399
school who grew up a Braves fan because it was

02:30:42.399 --> 02:30:44.239
the one team he could watch in the 90s. You could

02:30:44.239 --> 02:30:48.040
see in Wisconsin, you could see more Braves games

02:30:48.040 --> 02:30:49.959
than you could see Brewers games during that

02:30:49.959 --> 02:30:53.649
time. It wasn't until... The 80s and 90s were

02:30:53.649 --> 02:30:56.809
other teams caught up and had the rise of regional

02:30:56.809 --> 02:31:00.469
sports networks and it changed. But Ted Turner

02:31:00.469 --> 02:31:04.469
was on the forefront because he was a media mogul

02:31:04.469 --> 02:31:08.309
first before a baseball owner. So how did he

02:31:08.309 --> 02:31:11.549
get his wealth in order to buy the Atlanta Braves?

02:31:11.610 --> 02:31:14.489
Well, he was coming from an inherited billboard

02:31:14.489 --> 02:31:17.829
business through his father. And a reminder.

02:31:18.379 --> 02:31:21.200
Ted Turner was not a good kid. He was a spoiled

02:31:21.200 --> 02:31:24.000
rich kid. He went through a lot of drugs, a lot

02:31:24.000 --> 02:31:28.319
of brushes with the law, and yet came out on

02:31:28.319 --> 02:31:30.399
the other side always seemingly unscathed. He

02:31:30.399 --> 02:31:33.860
was a very good American sailor, as in like the

02:31:33.860 --> 02:31:38.840
Captain's Cup, as in, hey, catamarans and yachting

02:31:38.840 --> 02:31:40.420
is something that was a passion of his. It was,

02:31:40.440 --> 02:31:42.959
again, rich people activities. But the way that...

02:31:43.100 --> 02:31:45.559
ted turner built his billboard business because

02:31:45.559 --> 02:31:49.020
again this is the 70s the best way to advertise

02:31:49.020 --> 02:31:52.340
was either billboards or the newspaper and he

02:31:52.340 --> 02:31:55.219
was dominating this in the south in the atlanta

02:31:55.219 --> 02:31:57.760
area in the charlotte area and understanding

02:31:57.760 --> 02:32:00.079
okay i can make money doing this and suddenly

02:32:00.079 --> 02:32:03.040
there's this new innovation coming around it's

02:32:03.040 --> 02:32:08.200
called ultra high frequency uhf uhf is a way

02:32:08.200 --> 02:32:12.139
to beam a signal two cable televisions around

02:32:12.139 --> 02:32:15.920
your area but it wasn't widely available everyone

02:32:15.920 --> 02:32:20.459
was using one tier below that in uwf an ultra

02:32:20.459 --> 02:32:22.639
wide frequency but there wasn't a lot of competition

02:32:22.639 --> 02:32:25.979
on uhf stations and suddenly one became available

02:32:25.979 --> 02:32:31.000
for him to buy which eventually became wtbs but

02:32:31.000 --> 02:32:36.079
at the time it was wtcg and he had local programming

02:32:36.079 --> 02:32:39.290
on there he also we should mention bought the

02:32:39.290 --> 02:32:42.409
Atlanta Hawks. He was interested in sports, but

02:32:42.409 --> 02:32:45.489
was trying to find programming for his station

02:32:45.489 --> 02:32:48.790
more than he was interested in owning a baseball

02:32:48.790 --> 02:32:52.409
team. And finally, as the Braves were really

02:32:52.409 --> 02:32:54.829
struggling in the early 70s, even after moving

02:32:54.829 --> 02:32:57.430
from Milwaukee, we've talked about that chapter

02:32:57.430 --> 02:33:00.000
a couple of times where... Oh, Atlanta really

02:33:00.000 --> 02:33:02.520
wants the Milwaukee Braves. Bring them to Atlanta.

02:33:02.700 --> 02:33:04.899
And just three years in, they're already losing

02:33:04.899 --> 02:33:07.799
money. The ballpark is empty virtually every

02:33:07.799 --> 02:33:09.819
other game. And, in fact, the original owners,

02:33:09.979 --> 02:33:12.219
Dan Donahue, was saying, we're losing a million

02:33:12.219 --> 02:33:14.180
dollars a year. No one wants to buy this team.

02:33:14.299 --> 02:33:17.059
This was not a good gamble. I can't believe we're

02:33:17.059 --> 02:33:19.360
in Atlanta right now and not in Milwaukee. Well,

02:33:19.500 --> 02:33:23.680
at this time, Ted Turner then negotiates with

02:33:23.680 --> 02:33:27.760
the Braves to say, hey, I want you. to allow

02:33:27.760 --> 02:33:30.239
me to broadcast your games. At this time, the

02:33:30.239 --> 02:33:33.680
station was paying $200 ,000 to the Braves to

02:33:33.680 --> 02:33:36.299
show 20 away games. Kind of what you were talking

02:33:36.299 --> 02:33:37.979
about, Scott, where teams didn't even want to

02:33:37.979 --> 02:33:39.819
show home games because they feared it would

02:33:39.819 --> 02:33:43.579
impact the gate. Well, Ted's offer with Bill

02:33:43.579 --> 02:33:48.680
Bartholomew was tripling the games and tripling

02:33:48.680 --> 02:33:50.899
the payment. I want to do 60 of your away games

02:33:50.899 --> 02:33:55.700
and for $600 ,000. At the time, the parent company

02:33:55.700 --> 02:33:58.379
of the previous station, WSB, Cox Communications,

02:33:58.860 --> 02:34:01.959
which also owned the flagship radio station of

02:34:01.959 --> 02:34:04.340
the Braves and also owned the Atlanta Journal

02:34:04.340 --> 02:34:06.760
-Constitution, saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, who

02:34:06.760 --> 02:34:09.500
the heck is this guy? You cannot come in and

02:34:09.500 --> 02:34:11.780
try to poach our bid. We should have the right

02:34:11.780 --> 02:34:14.659
to match this bid. But Bill Bartholomew was saying,

02:34:14.780 --> 02:34:17.139
well, I already kind of agreed to Ted Turner.

02:34:17.319 --> 02:34:20.920
I like this deal a lot. Cox was furious, saying,

02:34:21.020 --> 02:34:23.540
you need to let us match this. We will match

02:34:23.540 --> 02:34:26.600
it right now. And because Bill was waffling on

02:34:26.600 --> 02:34:28.500
the handshake deal that he had with Ted, Ted,

02:34:28.680 --> 02:34:30.940
the salesman that he was, sat down and said,

02:34:30.979 --> 02:34:33.719
hey, man, it's a handshake. You can't go back

02:34:33.719 --> 02:34:36.219
on a handshake, you know? I thought we were friends

02:34:36.219 --> 02:34:38.860
here. And Bill ultimately agreed, you know what?

02:34:39.620 --> 02:34:43.760
WTCG, you can get those 60 away games. And that

02:34:43.760 --> 02:34:47.700
simple handshake started the empire that was

02:34:47.700 --> 02:34:50.299
Ted Turner. The ratings were good. People were

02:34:50.299 --> 02:34:53.860
enjoying the Braves locally. All of a sudden,

02:34:53.940 --> 02:34:56.500
the UHF receivers, the high -frequency receivers,

02:34:56.780 --> 02:34:59.979
were up in the six figures for people buying

02:34:59.979 --> 02:35:02.299
them to watch the Braves. There was certainly

02:35:02.299 --> 02:35:05.219
an untapped market here of people wanting to

02:35:05.219 --> 02:35:08.040
watch baseball on these new cable sets. But because

02:35:08.040 --> 02:35:10.559
there was so little competition on the UHF channels

02:35:10.559 --> 02:35:13.559
and the UHF stations, it was easier to find.

02:35:13.680 --> 02:35:16.100
It just costed a few more dollars for the fan

02:35:16.100 --> 02:35:18.479
to get. Well, maybe this you could call the first

02:35:18.479 --> 02:35:20.959
paywall, if you will. But ratings were still

02:35:20.959 --> 02:35:22.700
very, very strong, and I love this quote from

02:35:22.700 --> 02:35:26.139
Ted Turner's autobiography. Call me Ted. I hadn't

02:35:26.139 --> 02:35:28.680
been a baseball fan, but now that we were carrying

02:35:28.680 --> 02:35:31.639
games, I went to the ballpark often and watched

02:35:31.639 --> 02:35:35.340
a lot of the games on TV. Again, he was not a

02:35:35.340 --> 02:35:37.579
baseball guy through and through. He was a businessman

02:35:37.579 --> 02:35:40.239
and saw this as an opportunity. Oh, hey, I can

02:35:40.239 --> 02:35:43.760
fill some programming. on my station. Well, the

02:35:43.760 --> 02:35:45.819
Braves sucked. Okay, the Braves really sucked

02:35:45.819 --> 02:35:48.020
in the early 70s. Yes, they have Henry Aaron,

02:35:48.180 --> 02:35:51.319
the chase to break 714. He does so. Everyone's

02:35:51.319 --> 02:35:54.700
fired up. It's an epic season in 1974. And then

02:35:54.700 --> 02:35:57.780
he's quickly traded in 1975 back here to Milwaukee

02:35:57.780 --> 02:36:00.500
to end his career. That's when attendance really

02:36:00.500 --> 02:36:03.969
craters in Atlanta. Things are not going well.

02:36:04.049 --> 02:36:06.170
Again, Don Donahue wants to sell the Atlanta

02:36:06.170 --> 02:36:08.629
Braves. And Ted Turner comes in at the end of

02:36:08.629 --> 02:36:11.350
the season in 1975 saying, how you doing, man?

02:36:11.430 --> 02:36:13.309
Like, what's going on? And Dan just looks to

02:36:13.309 --> 02:36:15.629
Ted saying, I'm selling you the team. Nothing

02:36:15.629 --> 02:36:17.030
you can do about it. You're the only one that

02:36:17.030 --> 02:36:19.170
cares about this team. And Ted's like, I don't

02:36:19.170 --> 02:36:21.670
have the money for this. The billboard business

02:36:21.670 --> 02:36:24.309
is going well, and I've got this UHF station

02:36:24.309 --> 02:36:26.489
that's going well. But by the way, it costs a

02:36:26.489 --> 02:36:28.690
lot of money to run a UHF station because you

02:36:28.690 --> 02:36:30.250
need the signal, you need the satellites, you

02:36:30.250 --> 02:36:32.030
need everything that's an innovation at this

02:36:32.030 --> 02:36:35.090
time. He can't afford the $10 million price right

02:36:35.090 --> 02:36:37.870
now. Dan Donahue was saying, Sam, I think you're

02:36:37.870 --> 02:36:39.430
the best man for the job. You're the only one

02:36:39.430 --> 02:36:41.590
that cares about the Braves in this city. So

02:36:41.590 --> 02:36:44.809
what Ted did is he offered a million dollars

02:36:44.809 --> 02:36:49.430
now for cash for the team, nine years to pay

02:36:49.430 --> 02:36:52.690
the other $9 million that he would owe with interest,

02:36:52.790 --> 02:36:54.729
which would ultimately make it a $12 million

02:36:54.729 --> 02:36:58.110
sale. But he had to convince the other owners

02:36:58.110 --> 02:37:02.030
saying that his UHF signal was not going to poach.

02:37:02.360 --> 02:37:05.399
on their territory. This is where Ted kind of

02:37:05.399 --> 02:37:07.459
pulled a fast one on the rest of the owners in

02:37:07.459 --> 02:37:10.479
the National League. He even had a salesman on

02:37:10.479 --> 02:37:14.120
his crew that was Stan Musial's son -in -law.

02:37:14.340 --> 02:37:16.840
And you know how these old -timey baseball people

02:37:16.840 --> 02:37:19.139
are. When they see Stan the man walking in the

02:37:19.139 --> 02:37:21.020
door, they're like, oh my goodness, that's Stan

02:37:21.020 --> 02:37:24.319
Musial. So when Ted was being interviewed by

02:37:24.319 --> 02:37:28.139
the National League owners to be welcomed into

02:37:28.139 --> 02:37:31.020
the fraternity, He brought Stan Musial to say,

02:37:31.059 --> 02:37:33.020
this is a great man. You should let this man

02:37:33.020 --> 02:37:34.719
be an owner of the Atlanta Braves. And it was

02:37:34.719 --> 02:37:38.500
smooth sailing from there. Well, January 1976,

02:37:39.180 --> 02:37:41.920
Turner Communications owns the Atlanta Braves.

02:37:41.979 --> 02:37:43.979
All right. Congratulations, Ted Turner. You know

02:37:43.979 --> 02:37:46.879
what happened in February, Scott? What happened

02:37:46.879 --> 02:37:49.360
in February? Lockout. Nobody can go to spring

02:37:49.360 --> 02:37:51.879
training. You got to deal with it, bud. Welcome

02:37:51.879 --> 02:37:54.180
to Labor Negotiations. Let me introduce you to

02:37:54.180 --> 02:37:56.659
Marvin Miller. Now, we'll talk about that a lot

02:37:56.659 --> 02:37:58.540
with the birth of free agency again in episode

02:37:58.540 --> 02:38:01.159
five, but here's Ted Turner in his first spring

02:38:01.159 --> 02:38:04.899
training trying to understand, okay, wait, what

02:38:04.899 --> 02:38:06.760
do I do now in a lockout? What do you mean I

02:38:06.760 --> 02:38:08.920
can't be around my team? What do you mean? He

02:38:08.920 --> 02:38:12.420
was such a personable guy that he wanted to be

02:38:12.420 --> 02:38:14.000
around the team as much as possible. Now, when

02:38:14.000 --> 02:38:15.739
the lockout ultimately ended, as they were trying

02:38:15.739 --> 02:38:18.200
to figure out what to do with free agency, but...

02:38:18.639 --> 02:38:20.440
When the lockout ended, this is one of my favorite

02:38:20.440 --> 02:38:23.700
stories. It's well detailed in the book. One

02:38:23.700 --> 02:38:25.600
of the ways that Ted Turner is trying to bring

02:38:25.600 --> 02:38:28.659
himself up to speed when it comes to now owning

02:38:28.659 --> 02:38:30.559
a baseball team. Again, he's not a baseball fan.

02:38:30.860 --> 02:38:33.860
He hires a man, one of his people in his front

02:38:33.860 --> 02:38:36.280
office named Terry McGurk. Do you know this story,

02:38:36.379 --> 02:38:40.420
Scott? Sorry, I do not know Terry McGurk. Terry

02:38:40.420 --> 02:38:43.379
McGurk was a non -roster invitee to the Atlanta

02:38:43.379 --> 02:38:46.780
Braves, or so they thought. Terry McGurk was

02:38:46.780 --> 02:38:50.639
meant to really be a spy for Ted Turner within

02:38:50.639 --> 02:38:53.959
his own clubhouse, but not in a nefarious way

02:38:53.959 --> 02:38:58.040
and not in a way that's meant to be, you know,

02:38:58.040 --> 02:39:00.459
oh my goodness, catch dirt on this guy, catch

02:39:00.459 --> 02:39:02.000
dirt on this guy, I'm going to use it as blackmail.

02:39:02.100 --> 02:39:04.559
No, Ted literally just wanted to learn about

02:39:04.559 --> 02:39:07.360
everything that... goes into a baseball team

02:39:07.360 --> 02:39:09.959
how do guys interact with each other how do i

02:39:09.959 --> 02:39:12.620
work things uh in the right directions how do

02:39:12.620 --> 02:39:15.079
i make sure that guys are happy how do the managers

02:39:15.079 --> 02:39:16.500
think of this now the only people that were in

02:39:16.500 --> 02:39:18.819
on this bit on this non -roster invitee that

02:39:18.819 --> 02:39:21.799
nobody had ever heard of were ted and his manager

02:39:21.799 --> 02:39:24.299
and made it through weeks and weeks and weeks

02:39:24.299 --> 02:39:28.000
of spring training without his you know his cover

02:39:28.000 --> 02:39:32.059
being blown and ultimately there's a crazy game

02:39:32.059 --> 02:39:35.120
in spring training where it's like 16 to 15.

02:39:35.659 --> 02:39:37.940
He's the last man on the bench in the bullpen.

02:39:38.299 --> 02:39:40.559
They're running out of arms. Clearly, all right,

02:39:40.600 --> 02:39:41.860
if this guy's going to pitch in the game, it's

02:39:41.860 --> 02:39:43.860
going to be right now. But they couldn't get

02:39:43.860 --> 02:39:46.559
themselves to do so. And then the bit was out.

02:39:46.600 --> 02:39:49.559
But it was all meant to be, hey, let's make sure

02:39:49.559 --> 02:39:53.079
everyone gets along. Let's make sure that the

02:39:53.079 --> 02:39:56.020
team is set up for success. That's how much Ted

02:39:56.020 --> 02:39:57.620
Turner actually cared about the business side

02:39:57.620 --> 02:39:59.739
and the human side of this while on top of it

02:39:59.739 --> 02:40:01.120
trying to figure out how to compete with the

02:40:01.120 --> 02:40:03.579
team. Another fun fact from the 76 spring training,

02:40:03.659 --> 02:40:06.299
this is during the lockout, our old friend Bill

02:40:06.299 --> 02:40:08.840
Veck, him and Ted had a good relationship. Again,

02:40:08.940 --> 02:40:10.700
innovators and what they were able to do with

02:40:10.700 --> 02:40:15.750
their teams. They had a 1976 non -game. meaning

02:40:15.750 --> 02:40:18.170
they brought the Braves and the White Sox together

02:40:18.170 --> 02:40:20.350
during the lockout for an exhibition, but it

02:40:20.350 --> 02:40:21.850
wasn't officially an exhibition. It was a non

02:40:21.850 --> 02:40:23.770
-game. It's just guys that just, oh, we'll throw

02:40:23.770 --> 02:40:24.969
out a couple of bats, we'll throw out a couple

02:40:24.969 --> 02:40:27.090
of baseballs. Just a good old pickup baseball

02:40:27.090 --> 02:40:29.250
game, right? So they held that non -game and

02:40:29.250 --> 02:40:30.469
they said, hey, if this lockout keeps going,

02:40:30.569 --> 02:40:31.889
we're going to do this again. I just thought

02:40:31.889 --> 02:40:34.530
that was a funny little antidote. And then finally,

02:40:34.670 --> 02:40:38.750
Ted, when he met with his team and he was learning

02:40:38.750 --> 02:40:41.829
the team in 1976 and bouncing around from player

02:40:41.829 --> 02:40:45.139
to player. He was playing cards with them on

02:40:45.139 --> 02:40:48.040
the team plane. He was fraternizing with them

02:40:48.040 --> 02:40:50.159
in the clubhouse. He was checking in on their

02:40:50.159 --> 02:40:52.399
families. He was doing things that no other owner

02:40:52.399 --> 02:40:56.040
was really doing at this time. In fact, the owners,

02:40:56.159 --> 02:40:57.959
Chubb Feeney, the National League president,

02:40:58.120 --> 02:41:00.819
came to him and said, what are you doing with

02:41:00.819 --> 02:41:03.239
your players? They work for you. Stop being friendly

02:41:03.239 --> 02:41:06.440
to them. And again, this is the... The climate

02:41:06.440 --> 02:41:09.500
of the 70s with Marvin Miller reminding them,

02:41:09.559 --> 02:41:12.319
these are not your friends. And Ted Turner is

02:41:12.319 --> 02:41:14.920
trying to sit here and go, well, I pay for these

02:41:14.920 --> 02:41:17.079
guys' livelihoods. I want to take care of them.

02:41:17.120 --> 02:41:19.639
I care about these people. And Chubb Feeney is

02:41:19.639 --> 02:41:22.219
saying, no, you need to stop doing that. And

02:41:22.219 --> 02:41:25.040
the quote from Ted Turner, and quote the title

02:41:25.040 --> 02:41:27.799
of it, you can call me Ted just like everybody

02:41:27.799 --> 02:41:32.100
else. No sir, no Mr. Turner, none of this. upon

02:41:32.100 --> 02:41:33.819
some circumstance that some of these other owners

02:41:33.819 --> 02:41:36.620
were begging for at this time, Ted Turner was

02:41:36.620 --> 02:41:39.000
a down -to -earth millionaire that said, yeah,

02:41:39.040 --> 02:41:40.719
no, just call me Ted. What do you need? I'll

02:41:40.719 --> 02:41:42.260
take care of it for you because he really ran

02:41:42.260 --> 02:41:45.700
Atlanta. Now, during this time, the free agency

02:41:45.700 --> 02:41:49.100
boom starts to happen, okay? After the 1976 season,

02:41:49.239 --> 02:41:52.299
things go crazy. But we talked about Andy Messerschmidt

02:41:52.299 --> 02:41:57.340
in 1975 and how his free agency led the way to

02:41:57.340 --> 02:42:00.610
the rest of the... the sport getting free agency,

02:42:00.809 --> 02:42:03.590
which is how we transition into George Steinbrenner

02:42:03.590 --> 02:42:05.469
while we close the book on Ted Turner. Now, the

02:42:05.469 --> 02:42:07.090
reason why we're not going in super detail on

02:42:07.090 --> 02:42:11.409
Ted Turner and the success of WTBS and the success

02:42:11.409 --> 02:42:12.870
of the Superstation is because this is going

02:42:12.870 --> 02:42:16.049
to come up again in the 80s. Again, he was asked

02:42:16.049 --> 02:42:18.870
point blank by the owners, hey, are your UHF

02:42:18.870 --> 02:42:21.030
channels going to make it into my city? He's

02:42:21.030 --> 02:42:22.430
like, no, no, you got nothing to worry about

02:42:22.430 --> 02:42:24.389
on that. I'm going to stay in Atlanta. No, he

02:42:24.389 --> 02:42:26.110
would not stay in Atlanta. This would be a big

02:42:26.110 --> 02:42:29.370
topic of the 80s of trying to understand television

02:42:29.370 --> 02:42:32.469
rights and how to compensate appropriately on

02:42:32.469 --> 02:42:34.569
national TV deals that weren't actually nationally

02:42:34.569 --> 02:42:37.629
broadcasted, but they were just the Braves having

02:42:37.629 --> 02:42:41.909
a massive signal. But in 1975, Andy Messersmith

02:42:41.909 --> 02:42:45.250
becomes a free agent. And the bidding is open,

02:42:45.290 --> 02:42:47.370
just like we just saw with Catfish Hunter in

02:42:47.370 --> 02:42:50.430
1974. The bidding is open for Andy Messersmith.

02:42:50.790 --> 02:42:53.110
And the first team to get to the punch saying,

02:42:53.190 --> 02:42:55.610
I want to win free agency as much as possible

02:42:55.610 --> 02:42:58.930
is not Ted Turner. It's George Steinbrenner.

02:42:59.049 --> 02:43:01.590
George Steinbrenner is trying to sign Andy Messerschmidt.

02:43:01.750 --> 02:43:04.430
He thought he signed into the deal that he wanted

02:43:04.430 --> 02:43:07.649
to get. Worth over a million dollars for the

02:43:07.649 --> 02:43:09.790
life of the deal over three years. Seems like

02:43:09.790 --> 02:43:12.790
a pretty fair price for a young star pitcher

02:43:12.790 --> 02:43:15.629
from the Dodgers. And Andy comes back and says,

02:43:15.829 --> 02:43:18.590
wait, I didn't sign off on this deal. This is

02:43:18.590 --> 02:43:22.030
the infancy of agency. meaning agents having

02:43:22.030 --> 02:43:24.690
to agree to deals and clauses and this sort of

02:43:24.690 --> 02:43:27.350
thing. It's George. There's a bunch of clauses

02:43:27.350 --> 02:43:29.690
and little fine print because of George Steinbrenner.

02:43:29.729 --> 02:43:32.340
We'll talk about him in a moment. And he's reading

02:43:32.340 --> 02:43:34.860
this contract. I don't want to play for the Yankees.

02:43:34.860 --> 02:43:37.200
This is terrible. I don't want to do this. And

02:43:37.200 --> 02:43:40.379
he voided the contract based on agent negligence

02:43:40.379 --> 02:43:42.079
saying, no, I'm a free agent still. I'm not signing

02:43:42.079 --> 02:43:43.840
this. I don't care that the Yankees might have

02:43:43.840 --> 02:43:45.120
beat me to the munch and offered me the most

02:43:45.120 --> 02:43:47.860
money. I'm not signing this. Ted Turner swoops

02:43:47.860 --> 02:43:49.819
in. Oh, well, okay. We'll give you the exact

02:43:49.819 --> 02:43:51.600
same deal. None of the contingencies. None of

02:43:51.600 --> 02:43:53.340
the clauses. Don't have to worry about it. Come

02:43:53.340 --> 02:43:55.319
be an Atlanta Brave. This he sees like, this

02:43:55.319 --> 02:43:57.520
is my splash, right? This is my guy that can

02:43:57.520 --> 02:43:59.719
say. Let's finally care about winning again.

02:43:59.799 --> 02:44:01.579
Let's finally go and get this guy that everyone

02:44:01.579 --> 02:44:04.500
tells me is a really good pitcher. Do you know

02:44:04.500 --> 02:44:06.659
how well it went for Andy Methersmith in Atlanta,

02:44:06.899 --> 02:44:10.139
Scott? The first year was pretty good. Yeah,

02:44:10.180 --> 02:44:12.600
the first year was pretty good. The rest of it

02:44:12.600 --> 02:44:17.319
was not so good. After 1976, he made 29 games,

02:44:17.440 --> 02:44:21.319
28 starts. He had a 304 ERA, now a far cry from

02:44:21.319 --> 02:44:23.659
his 229 the year prior. But he was an all -star.

02:44:23.780 --> 02:44:26.360
Things were looking up. Well, the rest of his

02:44:26.360 --> 02:44:29.250
career. One more year with Atlanta, then in New

02:44:29.250 --> 02:44:32.170
York, and then back to the Dodgers. He would

02:44:32.170 --> 02:44:34.090
only make 33 more starts the rest of his career

02:44:34.090 --> 02:44:37.909
for a 4 -7 -2 ERA. It was not the same for Andy.

02:44:38.270 --> 02:44:40.250
But this is kind of selling. You mentioned he

02:44:40.250 --> 02:44:42.030
went to the Yankees. This is almost kind of a

02:44:42.030 --> 02:44:44.469
thing on Steinbrenner. Missed out on Messer Smith

02:44:44.469 --> 02:44:47.389
the first time. Second time when the Braves realized,

02:44:47.590 --> 02:44:50.270
oh, Messer Smith's injured. He's not going to

02:44:50.270 --> 02:44:52.590
be good. Steinbrenner comes in and goes, oh,

02:44:52.629 --> 02:44:54.590
I'll buy his contract. I missed on this guy this

02:44:54.590 --> 02:44:55.829
first time. I'm not going to miss the second

02:44:55.829 --> 02:44:58.190
time. And he was not good the second time around.

02:44:58.389 --> 02:45:01.229
I think it was 1978 with the Yankees while he's

02:45:01.229 --> 02:45:03.370
making this large amount of money and the Yankees

02:45:03.370 --> 02:45:07.229
just paid cash to the Braves to get him. Negative

02:45:07.229 --> 02:45:13.190
0 .8 war with a 5 .64 ERA. Like it was, it's

02:45:13.190 --> 02:45:15.649
almost like Steinbrenner. He's got that pride

02:45:15.649 --> 02:45:17.409
of, I missed out on this guy. I'm going to get

02:45:17.409 --> 02:45:19.889
him this time, no matter what, not realizing

02:45:19.889 --> 02:45:22.629
that his arm was basically shot at this point.

02:45:22.750 --> 02:45:26.950
Well, making $333 ,000, which was a good, hefty

02:45:26.950 --> 02:45:28.329
amount of money at this time. He was guaranteed

02:45:28.329 --> 02:45:30.569
a million dollars when he signed that three -year

02:45:30.569 --> 02:45:33.450
deal. But Andy Smith was the first, you know,

02:45:33.469 --> 02:45:35.090
free agent. Obviously, we talked about the Mr.

02:45:35.209 --> 02:45:37.030
Smith McNally holdouts and making it through

02:45:37.030 --> 02:45:39.750
the season to abolish the reserve clause. But

02:45:39.750 --> 02:45:41.670
what about that other guy that bid for him in

02:45:41.670 --> 02:45:44.030
George Steinbrenner? This is another owner that

02:45:44.030 --> 02:45:46.950
I promise we are going to have plenty more George

02:45:46.950 --> 02:45:49.829
Steinbrenner stories in the 80s, in the 90s,

02:45:49.829 --> 02:45:53.270
in the 2000s episodes. But for now, how did George

02:45:53.270 --> 02:45:56.690
Steinbrenner become owner of the Yankees? He's

02:45:56.690 --> 02:45:59.290
got a little bit of a flavor of every single

02:45:59.290 --> 02:46:01.229
owner that we've talked about to this point,

02:46:01.290 --> 02:46:05.049
where he needed multiple investors in order to

02:46:05.049 --> 02:46:07.770
afford the team. And that's where we channel

02:46:07.770 --> 02:46:11.299
Bill Veck. George was his own millionaire, kind

02:46:11.299 --> 02:46:12.940
of like Charlie Finley was, where he was the

02:46:12.940 --> 02:46:16.000
inheritance of a shipbuilding company. And you've

02:46:16.000 --> 02:46:18.020
also got to remember the 60s and 70s, the Great

02:46:18.020 --> 02:46:20.379
Lakes. A lot of trade is going through the Great

02:46:20.379 --> 02:46:23.020
Lakes in Lake Erie and in Cleveland and in Ohio

02:46:23.020 --> 02:46:25.500
and in Michigan, where this company, American

02:46:25.500 --> 02:46:28.860
Shipbuilders, is based. So he gets that inheritance

02:46:28.860 --> 02:46:33.920
from his father. And CBS at the time, yes, Columbia

02:46:33.920 --> 02:46:37.079
Broadcasting System, owned the Yankees in the

02:46:37.079 --> 02:46:40.469
60s. They were not very good in the 60s. Now

02:46:40.469 --> 02:46:45.129
the past of Mickey Mantle is gone. The past of

02:46:45.129 --> 02:46:48.950
Roger Maris in 61 is gone. In the late 60s, the

02:46:48.950 --> 02:46:51.350
Yankees are really struggling, and they're trying

02:46:51.350 --> 02:46:54.569
to find their identity again. Every Yankee team

02:46:54.569 --> 02:46:57.209
had some sort of guy that you could point to

02:46:57.209 --> 02:46:59.010
and say, yes, that's part of the future. They

02:46:59.010 --> 02:47:02.590
hadn't been to the World Series since 1964 when

02:47:02.590 --> 02:47:04.950
they lost in seven games. They don't want to

02:47:04.950 --> 02:47:07.549
make it back until free agency was invented in

02:47:07.549 --> 02:47:11.069
1976. And in the middle of this, George Steinbrenner

02:47:11.069 --> 02:47:13.989
becomes the owner of the New York Yankees with

02:47:13.989 --> 02:47:17.110
10 other partners, mind you, for a $10 million

02:47:17.110 --> 02:47:22.030
price. Again, what? $10 million for the New York

02:47:22.030 --> 02:47:25.250
Yankees in the 60s? That's how bad the Yankees

02:47:25.250 --> 02:47:28.469
had fallen. CBS had struggled to keep up with

02:47:28.469 --> 02:47:31.049
Yankee Stadium. It was decaying. They had to

02:47:31.049 --> 02:47:35.139
figure out what to do with it. that it was that

02:47:35.139 --> 02:47:39.239
cheap. And furthermore, George's stake in this

02:47:39.239 --> 02:47:42.379
consortium of owners to buy the Yankees, he only

02:47:42.379 --> 02:47:45.700
put forward $168 ,000 to buy the Yankees. It

02:47:45.700 --> 02:47:50.139
all began with just a six -figure check to get

02:47:50.139 --> 02:47:54.680
invited to this consortium. And very quickly,

02:47:54.840 --> 02:47:57.520
George said, I am in charge. The rest of you

02:47:57.520 --> 02:48:00.639
sit down. And this is a theme that we will see

02:48:00.639 --> 02:48:02.639
from the boss, as he is nicknamed, as we all

02:48:02.639 --> 02:48:08.260
know. But how did he become this hard and strict

02:48:08.260 --> 02:48:11.600
and sort of a firework of a character that is

02:48:11.600 --> 02:48:14.860
George Steinbrenner, his upbringing, an ultra

02:48:14.860 --> 02:48:17.020
-strict father, again, of the American Shipbuilding

02:48:17.020 --> 02:48:20.479
Company, where militaristic ideals, principles,

02:48:20.879 --> 02:48:23.459
you are playing sports, you are going to be a

02:48:23.459 --> 02:48:25.399
straight -A student, you are going to stay straight

02:48:25.399 --> 02:48:28.299
-edge, you are wearing prim and proper boarding

02:48:28.299 --> 02:48:32.959
school attire. I mean, he was the... poster child

02:48:32.959 --> 02:48:37.399
of helicopter parent. You are not to do anything

02:48:37.399 --> 02:48:39.879
wrong ever, ever, ever, ever again. And it kind

02:48:39.879 --> 02:48:42.100
of scarred him. You could argue growing up where

02:48:42.100 --> 02:48:45.659
he ran track in Ohio Wesleyan. He was a quite

02:48:45.659 --> 02:48:47.940
the athlete growing up and he was a hurdler.

02:48:48.079 --> 02:48:50.719
He was somebody that was very strict with his

02:48:50.719 --> 02:48:53.139
own routines and very strict with what he was

02:48:53.139 --> 02:48:55.340
able to do as he worked his way up in the American

02:48:55.340 --> 02:48:57.940
shipbuilding. But he also learned. He could kind

02:48:57.940 --> 02:49:00.700
of get his way. He had a way about convincing

02:49:00.700 --> 02:49:02.540
people, it's my way or the highway. He talked

02:49:02.540 --> 02:49:06.219
fast. He talked in a way that really sort of

02:49:06.219 --> 02:49:08.079
intimidated people, especially in the Midwest

02:49:08.079 --> 02:49:10.600
where American Shipbuilding was based in Cleveland.

02:49:10.840 --> 02:49:13.479
He was just bang, bang, bang, just quick, fast,

02:49:13.579 --> 02:49:15.639
very New York -like before he was even in New

02:49:15.639 --> 02:49:19.280
York. But for George, owning a baseball team

02:49:19.280 --> 02:49:22.219
was always on his radar. In fact, he wanted to

02:49:22.219 --> 02:49:24.260
own the Cleveland Indians. He wanted to be involved

02:49:24.260 --> 02:49:27.860
in that ownership group. He had small funds in.

02:49:27.979 --> 02:49:30.459
He was a minority share owner in that. And when

02:49:30.459 --> 02:49:32.459
it was announced that George was in this consortium

02:49:32.459 --> 02:49:35.459
to buy the Yankees, you know, Yankees folks were

02:49:35.459 --> 02:49:37.459
like, you want this guy from Cleveland? Are you

02:49:37.459 --> 02:49:39.780
kidding me? He took that as a slight. He took

02:49:39.780 --> 02:49:42.020
that as saying, oh, they don't believe in what

02:49:42.020 --> 02:49:44.799
I can do. And they think, oh, the Cleveland Indians

02:49:44.799 --> 02:49:46.479
are not very good at this time. There's no way

02:49:46.479 --> 02:49:47.879
this guy's going to be a good owner for the Yankees.

02:49:48.420 --> 02:49:51.360
Hold my beer. Watch me do this. And instantly,

02:49:51.479 --> 02:49:54.790
in his first year on the job, he gets, he. He

02:49:54.790 --> 02:49:58.129
comes under 1973. Catfish Hunter happens in 1974.

02:49:58.610 --> 02:50:01.229
Bill Madden's book, The Last Lion of Baseball,

02:50:01.309 --> 02:50:04.889
about George Steinbrenner, talked about how as

02:50:04.889 --> 02:50:06.530
the bidding went up and up and up for Catfish

02:50:06.530 --> 02:50:09.629
Hunter, George was always making the command

02:50:09.629 --> 02:50:13.030
saying, just whatever it is, get it. Whatever

02:50:13.030 --> 02:50:14.809
it is, we got the money. Whatever it is, we got

02:50:14.809 --> 02:50:17.069
the money. And then the final price comes in

02:50:17.069 --> 02:50:20.229
for Catfish Hunter. And it was silence on the

02:50:20.229 --> 02:50:23.229
other end of the radio line saying, George, George,

02:50:23.250 --> 02:50:26.030
George, are you there? I didn't think it was

02:50:26.030 --> 02:50:27.090
going to be that much money. Are you kidding

02:50:27.090 --> 02:50:28.850
me? Why is one guy worth this much money? Are

02:50:28.850 --> 02:50:30.329
you kidding me? George didn't want to sign for

02:50:30.329 --> 02:50:31.809
that much money for Cafe Chateau. Now, granted,

02:50:31.889 --> 02:50:33.469
he was wrong. It turned out to be one of the

02:50:33.469 --> 02:50:36.409
best moves he ever made. But for George, in the

02:50:36.409 --> 02:50:38.809
beginning here, he was known for firing people

02:50:38.809 --> 02:50:42.229
on a whim, his strict time code saying, you have

02:50:42.229 --> 02:50:43.829
to be 10 minutes early to everywhere you go.

02:50:44.149 --> 02:50:47.770
It was chaos in the time at old Yankee Stadium

02:50:47.770 --> 02:50:51.120
because... He was just somebody that was trying

02:50:51.120 --> 02:50:53.920
to run it his way. And he was trying to make

02:50:53.920 --> 02:50:56.899
sure that everybody understood George is the

02:50:56.899 --> 02:50:58.840
boss. George is the one who makes the final say.

02:50:58.959 --> 02:51:00.440
Yes, there's other people involved. Yes, there's

02:51:00.440 --> 02:51:03.079
a general manager. Yes, there's a manager. George

02:51:03.079 --> 02:51:06.299
is the one in charge, a la Charlie Finley. And

02:51:06.299 --> 02:51:08.680
you mentioned that the Yankees were in kind of

02:51:08.680 --> 02:51:11.940
a bad... when he bought them. I just want to

02:51:11.940 --> 02:51:15.579
put this in perspective. The 1961 Yankees, famous

02:51:15.579 --> 02:51:18.479
squad with Maris and Mantle chasing the home

02:51:18.479 --> 02:51:21.600
run record during all this time they're playing

02:51:21.600 --> 02:51:24.020
at Yankee Stadium. So you think attendance would

02:51:24.020 --> 02:51:27.100
be pretty good then. And it was their best attended

02:51:27.100 --> 02:51:33.479
season in the 1960s at 1 .7 million, which doesn't

02:51:33.479 --> 02:51:35.579
seem like a lot these days, you know, when you

02:51:35.579 --> 02:51:38.809
have teams in the twos and three millions. In

02:51:38.809 --> 02:51:41.250
1972, the year before Steinbrenner bought it,

02:51:41.290 --> 02:51:45.469
under 1 million fans went to Yankee Stadium,

02:51:45.629 --> 02:51:52.069
which just sounds crazy. And then by 1977, Steinbrenner's

02:51:52.069 --> 02:51:56.010
Yankees were up to 2 .1 million. So 1977, they

02:51:56.010 --> 02:51:58.870
saw more attendance than the 1961 Yankees, which

02:51:58.870 --> 02:52:01.770
is kind of like 1961 is that year everyone goes,

02:52:01.930 --> 02:52:04.229
oh man, they've made movies about that year.

02:52:04.829 --> 02:52:08.090
And in 1980, a team that didn't even go to the

02:52:08.090 --> 02:52:11.329
World Series, 2 .6 million. So this was right

02:52:11.329 --> 02:52:14.129
on the cusp where attendance numbers in baseball

02:52:14.129 --> 02:52:16.750
were starting to see a big change. There were

02:52:16.750 --> 02:52:19.049
a lot more people going to the park than there

02:52:19.049 --> 02:52:26.000
were prior to the 1980s. And then after... 19

02:52:26.000 --> 02:52:29.219
like show you now nowadays the yankees are 4

02:52:29.219 --> 02:52:32.840
million in 2008 and i believe that's still old

02:52:32.840 --> 02:52:35.079
yankee stadium too that's the last year of old

02:52:35.079 --> 02:52:37.500
yankee stadium yeah the last year of old yankee

02:52:37.500 --> 02:52:40.940
stadium so from when steinbrenner bought the

02:52:40.940 --> 02:52:44.719
team to the last year of yankee stadium attendance

02:52:44.719 --> 02:52:48.659
quadrupled from under 1 million to over 4 million

02:52:48.659 --> 02:52:53.200
and some of it is just baseball changing, the

02:52:53.200 --> 02:52:55.899
environment changing, attendance going way up.

02:52:56.020 --> 02:52:57.899
And some of it is also Steinbrenner's doing.

02:52:58.020 --> 02:53:00.579
Fans get excited when you sign a catfish hunter.

02:53:00.680 --> 02:53:03.959
Fans get excited when you purchase Andy Messersmith.

02:53:04.219 --> 02:53:06.780
Fans get excited when you sign Reggie Jackson,

02:53:06.959 --> 02:53:09.100
when you sign Dave Winfield. When you sign all

02:53:09.100 --> 02:53:12.780
these gigantic contracts, fans get excited about

02:53:12.780 --> 02:53:14.739
it and will go out to the stadium. Now, it doesn't

02:53:14.739 --> 02:53:17.379
always work for every team, 2026 Mets, but...

02:53:18.080 --> 02:53:19.860
Generally, Steinbrenner was on the forefront

02:53:19.860 --> 02:53:22.280
of, like, if we pay for these guys, the fans

02:53:22.280 --> 02:53:25.639
will come. If we build it, they will come. But

02:53:25.639 --> 02:53:27.840
there were even teams in the 80s that George

02:53:27.840 --> 02:53:31.399
was overseeing, and he was an impatient man that

02:53:31.399 --> 02:53:34.319
kept making trades, trying to keep the World

02:53:34.319 --> 02:53:35.920
Series vibe going. Because, again, they went

02:53:35.920 --> 02:53:39.059
to three straight World Series, 76, 77, 78. They

02:53:39.059 --> 02:53:41.280
went back to the World Series in 81. And in the

02:53:41.280 --> 02:53:44.879
split season that year, they lose the World Series.

02:53:45.079 --> 02:53:48.729
But yet... You look at the rest of the 80s, didn't

02:53:48.729 --> 02:53:50.530
even make the playoffs during this time because

02:53:50.530 --> 02:53:53.209
of George wheeling and dealing of not believing

02:53:53.209 --> 02:53:55.670
in a farm system and trading guys left and right.

02:53:55.889 --> 02:53:59.270
And the Yankees kind of fall into this in -between

02:53:59.270 --> 02:54:02.030
of, well, wait, we're down to under $2 million

02:54:02.030 --> 02:54:05.500
in attendance in the 90s? What do you mean, George?

02:54:05.659 --> 02:54:06.819
I thought you were the richest guy. I thought

02:54:06.819 --> 02:54:07.920
you were the guy that's going to be running things

02:54:07.920 --> 02:54:09.719
here. Well, it's because he kept trading everybody

02:54:09.719 --> 02:54:11.879
and trying to sign players. And you look at all

02:54:11.879 --> 02:54:14.000
the managers that he had here year over year

02:54:14.000 --> 02:54:16.579
over year. He fired Billy Martin five times.

02:54:16.760 --> 02:54:20.319
Five times, Billy Martin. There was a great E60

02:54:20.319 --> 02:54:22.680
back in the day, I remember, about Billy Martin

02:54:22.680 --> 02:54:24.079
and George Steinbrenner that I would encourage

02:54:24.079 --> 02:54:27.959
people to watch. But again, in 1978, even when

02:54:27.959 --> 02:54:31.500
they win the World Series, Billy is fired, and

02:54:31.500 --> 02:54:35.319
eventually it's Bob Lemon. who then manages the

02:54:35.319 --> 02:54:37.639
team. Then Bob Lemon gets fired and Billy Martin

02:54:37.639 --> 02:54:39.979
comes back. Then neither one of them want to

02:54:39.979 --> 02:54:42.239
come back in 78, and it's Dick Hauser running

02:54:42.239 --> 02:54:46.079
the team in 80. Then Gene Michael, the general

02:54:46.079 --> 02:54:49.760
manager, is now running the team in 1982. You

02:54:49.760 --> 02:54:51.639
get my point where there are multiple years with

02:54:51.639 --> 02:54:54.459
two, even three managers in a single season because

02:54:54.459 --> 02:54:57.520
George was so impatient of trying to say, no,

02:54:57.559 --> 02:54:58.620
no, no, you're the reason why we're not winning.

02:54:59.079 --> 02:55:01.059
I give you all the players. You got to make them

02:55:01.059 --> 02:55:04.040
win and move on and try to figure this out. I

02:55:04.040 --> 02:55:06.319
always remember Seinfeld, you know, that was

02:55:06.319 --> 02:55:08.079
the depiction of George Steinbrenner. But they

02:55:08.079 --> 02:55:10.040
had a joke in there where he starts listing off

02:55:10.040 --> 02:55:12.760
all the people he's fired. And he's and he says

02:55:12.760 --> 02:55:14.899
a name. Then he says Billy Martin. Then he says

02:55:14.899 --> 02:55:16.620
another name. Then he says Billy Martin again.

02:55:16.719 --> 02:55:19.739
And the joke is just how many times he's fired

02:55:19.739 --> 02:55:24.559
and rehired Billy Martin. It's it's I I've never

02:55:24.559 --> 02:55:27.319
heard of anyone, you know, that has been hired

02:55:27.319 --> 02:55:29.819
and fired from the same company, you know, more

02:55:29.819 --> 02:55:33.180
than twice, let alone five times. But the other

02:55:33.180 --> 02:55:34.739
thing that we haven't talked about with George

02:55:34.739 --> 02:55:37.219
is he did have trouble with the law and he did

02:55:37.219 --> 02:55:40.079
have trouble with the federal government. He

02:55:40.079 --> 02:55:42.579
was suspended twice, once for the federal government

02:55:42.579 --> 02:55:45.600
and once for Major League Baseball. Now, 1975,

02:55:46.059 --> 02:55:49.059
Richard Nixon is trying to be reelected. And

02:55:49.059 --> 02:55:50.819
if you know anything about American history,

02:55:50.959 --> 02:55:53.299
wait a minute, Nixon getting reelected. He didn't

02:55:53.299 --> 02:55:57.399
get reelected. Oh, Watergate. This is where he

02:55:57.399 --> 02:55:59.420
wasn't involved directly with Watergate, but

02:55:59.420 --> 02:56:03.059
he was involved with. improper campaign contributions

02:56:03.059 --> 02:56:07.200
to the campaign to reelect Richard Nixon. To

02:56:07.200 --> 02:56:10.500
creep is what it's always known, the campaign

02:56:10.500 --> 02:56:15.319
to reelect the president. So when Richard Nixon

02:56:15.319 --> 02:56:19.180
was receiving funding to go run again, and the

02:56:19.180 --> 02:56:21.340
way that George Steinbrenner hid these funds,

02:56:21.479 --> 02:56:23.360
because there's taxes on this and there's public

02:56:23.360 --> 02:56:26.040
interest in this, when George Steinbrenner was

02:56:26.040 --> 02:56:29.420
ordering his American shipbuilders to donate,

02:56:30.040 --> 02:56:33.760
to creep, to say, hey, Richard Nixon is supporting

02:56:33.760 --> 02:56:36.020
us. We're going to support Richard Nixon. I'm

02:56:36.020 --> 02:56:38.579
going to disguise these bonuses that I'm giving

02:56:38.579 --> 02:56:41.819
to you so that way I can write these off as expenditures

02:56:41.819 --> 02:56:45.059
to the company are really meant to be going to

02:56:45.059 --> 02:56:47.139
Richard Nixon. He thought he was going to get

02:56:47.139 --> 02:56:49.100
away with it. That is, of course, fraud. That

02:56:49.100 --> 02:56:52.100
is illegal campaign contributions because you're

02:56:52.100 --> 02:56:54.440
also, it's a labor issue, telling people to do

02:56:54.440 --> 02:56:58.159
with your money, trying to keep it under wraps.

02:56:58.940 --> 02:57:01.680
On the American shipbuilding company line, it

02:57:01.680 --> 02:57:04.579
says it's an incentive bonus to his employees.

02:57:04.780 --> 02:57:07.420
When the employees in reality are the ones giving

02:57:07.420 --> 02:57:10.219
the money then to Richard Nixon to make it look

02:57:10.219 --> 02:57:12.879
like it's not George Steinbrenner. It's George's

02:57:12.879 --> 02:57:15.780
money all along. It's just incorporating a middleman

02:57:15.780 --> 02:57:18.680
going to Richard Nixon. This was investigated

02:57:18.680 --> 02:57:22.020
and found. He avoided jail time, of course, but

02:57:22.020 --> 02:57:25.020
he also had to pay hefty fines. I have the articles

02:57:25.020 --> 02:57:28.319
in the sub stack here as well. Major League Baseball

02:57:28.319 --> 02:57:30.260
has to sit here and figure out, what do we do

02:57:30.260 --> 02:57:33.979
about illegal campaign contributions? Bowie Kuhn,

02:57:34.020 --> 02:57:37.899
again, is in charge. And this is the start of

02:57:37.899 --> 02:57:39.920
a relationship that would be very rocky over

02:57:39.920 --> 02:57:42.719
the years with George Steinbrenner and the commissionership.

02:57:43.579 --> 02:57:46.500
Ultimately, the initial sentence was a two -year

02:57:46.500 --> 02:57:48.979
suspension from Major League Baseball and from

02:57:48.979 --> 02:57:51.059
day -to -day operations of the New York Yankees.

02:57:51.360 --> 02:57:53.909
Meaning... You can't make trades. You can't call

02:57:53.909 --> 02:57:56.069
anybody in the building. You can't even be in

02:57:56.069 --> 02:57:58.549
the building for that matter. And ultimately,

02:57:58.569 --> 02:58:01.250
it would be shortened down to 18 months that

02:58:01.250 --> 02:58:04.030
he would serve. But here you are three years

02:58:04.030 --> 02:58:07.889
into his tenure of you're already being suspended

02:58:07.889 --> 02:58:10.250
for something you're not supposed to do. This

02:58:10.250 --> 02:58:12.930
is baseball. You can be suspended for something

02:58:12.930 --> 02:58:15.829
you do outside of baseball, which really irked.

02:58:16.120 --> 02:58:17.700
George Steinbrenner for that. What I do with

02:58:17.700 --> 02:58:19.180
my money, what I do with my business is none

02:58:19.180 --> 02:58:20.840
of your business in baseball. Him and Bowie would

02:58:20.840 --> 02:58:23.739
go fist to cuffs almost at time to time. But

02:58:23.739 --> 02:58:26.399
all the meanwhile, you may notice a trend here.

02:58:26.700 --> 02:58:29.379
While his hands weren't on the team, a winner

02:58:29.379 --> 02:58:31.920
was being built. And it would set the stage for

02:58:31.920 --> 02:58:35.540
1976 and losing the World Series, getting swept

02:58:35.540 --> 02:58:41.079
by those Reds. But then in 1977, with one Reggie

02:58:41.079 --> 02:58:45.319
Jackson and the birth of Mr. October. Having

02:58:45.319 --> 02:58:47.379
the funds ready to go and having the farm system

02:58:47.379 --> 02:58:50.180
ready to go for free agency meant that George

02:58:50.180 --> 02:58:52.260
Steinbrenner finally had what he always wanted.

02:58:52.360 --> 02:58:57.819
He just wanted a winner. Yeah, and that definitely

02:58:57.819 --> 02:59:00.280
worked out with Reggie Jackson. Although, do

02:59:00.280 --> 02:59:03.700
we want to talk about Winfield? Because he tried

02:59:03.700 --> 02:59:06.059
to do the same thing with Winfield, but it didn't

02:59:06.059 --> 02:59:08.500
go quite as well. They went back -to -back World

02:59:08.500 --> 02:59:10.899
Series, 77 -78. They make it back to the World

02:59:10.899 --> 02:59:14.139
Series in 1981, and they lose, but... Now you're

02:59:14.139 --> 02:59:16.799
starting to realize, okay, what do you have available?

02:59:16.879 --> 02:59:20.899
What else can you do for this team? How can you

02:59:20.899 --> 02:59:22.520
make sure you have a sustainable winner, right?

02:59:22.959 --> 02:59:25.100
Reggie's starting to get older. Some of the stars

02:59:25.100 --> 02:59:26.739
you've been paying for are getting older. And

02:59:26.739 --> 02:59:29.440
through the 80s, things were pretty rough. But

02:59:29.440 --> 02:59:32.379
free agency is still... the way that the Yankees

02:59:32.379 --> 02:59:35.100
are being built, trying to sign players as much

02:59:35.100 --> 02:59:37.899
as they can for as much money as they can, flexing

02:59:37.899 --> 02:59:39.440
their muscles on the Milwaukee's of the world,

02:59:39.479 --> 02:59:42.260
flexing their muscles on the rumors of expansion

02:59:42.260 --> 02:59:44.780
teams coming around. The Yankees wanted to get

02:59:44.780 --> 02:59:46.659
back to their power in the 80s, and they thought

02:59:46.659 --> 02:59:49.479
by doing so, they would sign by a player by the

02:59:49.479 --> 02:59:53.280
name of Dave Winfield. Yeah, Dave Winfield. This

02:59:53.280 --> 02:59:57.760
is a funny, this is almost an example of how...

02:59:58.319 --> 03:00:01.559
These larger than life owners can sometimes have

03:00:01.559 --> 03:00:04.600
an ego about them because he definitely did go

03:00:04.600 --> 03:00:07.479
in on bidding for Dave Winfield. Eventually,

03:00:07.659 --> 03:00:10.620
Winfield agreed to sign a contract. But during

03:00:10.620 --> 03:00:12.979
the negotiations, during working with an agent,

03:00:13.159 --> 03:00:16.100
one thing that was put in the contract was a

03:00:16.100 --> 03:00:20.120
cost of living adjustment year to year. So what?

03:00:21.159 --> 03:00:24.680
And George Steinbrenner was not aware, even though

03:00:24.680 --> 03:00:27.579
he's drafting this contract and Winfield is signing

03:00:27.579 --> 03:00:30.739
it, that what this impact would have on what

03:00:30.739 --> 03:00:33.280
he would have to pay Winfield. He thought, I

03:00:33.280 --> 03:00:34.799
don't have the exact numbers off the top of my

03:00:34.799 --> 03:00:37.959
head, but he thought he was paying X dollar amounts.

03:00:38.040 --> 03:00:40.840
It was nearly double when you factor in the cost

03:00:40.840 --> 03:00:44.319
of living adjustment. And the thing about Steinbrenner,

03:00:44.399 --> 03:00:46.899
this is the thing that probably paints him in

03:00:46.899 --> 03:00:49.319
the most negative light, is he took that personally.

03:00:49.899 --> 03:00:52.739
And Winfield signed a 10 -year deal for his entire

03:00:52.739 --> 03:00:57.459
run with the Yankees. Steinbrenner almost made

03:00:57.459 --> 03:00:59.799
life a living hell for Winfield. He talked bad

03:00:59.799 --> 03:01:03.739
about him in the press when Reggie Jackson was

03:01:03.739 --> 03:01:06.100
Mr. October. I think he called Dave Winfield,

03:01:06.159 --> 03:01:08.459
was it Mr. May? It was because basically saying,

03:01:08.540 --> 03:01:10.079
oh, he does good in the regular season. He never

03:01:10.079 --> 03:01:11.700
does anything in the playoffs because they never

03:01:11.700 --> 03:01:14.500
made the playoffs. But Dave Winfield was still

03:01:14.500 --> 03:01:17.239
a productive player during this time. It was

03:01:17.239 --> 03:01:20.959
just... Steinbrenner did not enjoy getting one

03:01:20.959 --> 03:01:24.180
-upped on a business deal. And it really, really

03:01:24.180 --> 03:01:27.520
hit the fan in the late 80s. Well, what happened

03:01:27.520 --> 03:01:29.280
was he became the highest paid player in baseball

03:01:29.280 --> 03:01:32.239
at the time. And to reiterate, Dave Winfield,

03:01:32.340 --> 03:01:34.559
who is in the Hall of Fame, was a legend with

03:01:34.559 --> 03:01:36.379
the San Diego Padres, another team that's never

03:01:36.379 --> 03:01:38.799
won a World Series. He had not yet won an MVP.

03:01:38.940 --> 03:01:40.620
In fact, he never did. He's maybe the best player

03:01:40.620 --> 03:01:44.590
to never win an MVP in his career. Dave Winfield,

03:01:44.709 --> 03:01:48.030
in his final year in San Diego, had 118 RBIs,

03:01:48.149 --> 03:01:51.030
had 34 homers, and a hard place to hit. He was

03:01:51.030 --> 03:01:53.250
clearly the best hitter available going into

03:01:53.250 --> 03:01:57.430
free agency after 1980. He had a down year compared

03:01:57.430 --> 03:02:00.270
to the year prior in 1980, but still George wanted

03:02:00.270 --> 03:02:01.889
him, making him the highest paid player in baseball.

03:02:02.379 --> 03:02:04.500
higher paid than Nolan Ryan, right? And think

03:02:04.500 --> 03:02:06.559
about a position player getting paid more than

03:02:06.559 --> 03:02:08.719
a pitcher nowadays, which was happening right

03:02:08.719 --> 03:02:10.479
now with Juan Soto, but could have happened again

03:02:10.479 --> 03:02:12.620
with somebody down the road with like a Paul

03:02:12.620 --> 03:02:14.620
Skeens or a Tarek Skubal, whatever happens. But

03:02:14.620 --> 03:02:17.120
that's modern. Let's go back. You mentioned the

03:02:17.120 --> 03:02:20.280
late 80s, and we'll talk about this in this episode

03:02:20.280 --> 03:02:22.700
more deeply, but George Steinbrenner hired a

03:02:22.700 --> 03:02:26.750
gambler to gather dirt, to essentially spy. on

03:02:26.750 --> 03:02:29.750
Dave Winfield to find a way to avoid the contract,

03:02:29.850 --> 03:02:31.590
to find a way to suspend him, to find a way to

03:02:31.590 --> 03:02:35.829
get him off my team. And again, Dave was not

03:02:35.829 --> 03:02:38.590
a bad player with the Yankees. Dave hit 290.

03:02:38.770 --> 03:02:41.930
He had an 850 OPS. He had 205 homers. He had

03:02:41.930 --> 03:02:43.149
more homers than the Yankees than he did with

03:02:43.149 --> 03:02:45.750
any other team in his career. I don't understand

03:02:45.750 --> 03:02:49.010
the vibe because, like you said, he hated losing

03:02:49.010 --> 03:02:51.510
a business deal. He couldn't believe that Winfield

03:02:51.510 --> 03:02:55.200
won this battle to get the... cost of a living

03:02:55.200 --> 03:03:00.219
clause in his contract in order to actually get

03:03:00.219 --> 03:03:02.020
more compensation than was initially reported.

03:03:02.159 --> 03:03:04.440
Instead of $23 million, it was much, much more

03:03:04.440 --> 03:03:07.899
than that. And this led to another suspension,

03:03:08.120 --> 03:03:12.280
this time from Faye Vincent, saying... George,

03:03:12.379 --> 03:03:15.700
you cannot dig up dirt on your own players as

03:03:15.700 --> 03:03:18.500
a spy, as a gambler. Again, gambling, baseball,

03:03:18.659 --> 03:03:21.319
this is not what we want here. We'll talk about

03:03:21.319 --> 03:03:23.819
it in more detail in the 90s episode about Dave

03:03:23.819 --> 03:03:25.479
Winfield because also Dave has a book coming

03:03:25.479 --> 03:03:27.399
out that I'm really excited to read and I'm sure

03:03:27.399 --> 03:03:30.059
that he has a lot of details on what he learned

03:03:30.059 --> 03:03:33.600
about this whole episode. But to say that George

03:03:33.600 --> 03:03:36.860
Steinbrenner and Dave Winfield did not like each

03:03:36.860 --> 03:03:39.780
other is the understatement of the century. That

03:03:39.780 --> 03:03:42.760
being said... George was not out here trying

03:03:42.760 --> 03:03:46.000
to make friends in the 80s and 90s. It wasn't

03:03:46.000 --> 03:03:49.059
until while he was suspended in the early 90s

03:03:49.059 --> 03:03:53.299
from this ordeal with Dave Winfield that his

03:03:53.299 --> 03:03:57.239
team and his front office was signing and developing

03:03:57.239 --> 03:04:01.420
and creating the core four. People have argued,

03:04:01.520 --> 03:04:04.959
and I would agree with this, honestly, that while

03:04:04.959 --> 03:04:07.920
George was suspended and during the chaos of

03:04:07.920 --> 03:04:10.850
the early 90s, that George would have got impatient

03:04:10.850 --> 03:04:13.489
and traded somebody like Derek Jeter, would have

03:04:13.489 --> 03:04:16.170
traded somebody like Jorge Posada, would have

03:04:16.170 --> 03:04:18.510
not allowed the core four to develop, but because

03:04:18.510 --> 03:04:20.989
he was suspended by Major League Baseball for

03:04:20.989 --> 03:04:24.090
this Dave Winfield incident, that the Yankees

03:04:24.090 --> 03:04:27.250
became a dynasty because of Steinbrenner's greed

03:04:27.250 --> 03:04:30.430
and because of his poor decision -making trying

03:04:30.430 --> 03:04:32.989
to spy on Dave Winfield. Yeah, I do have one

03:04:32.989 --> 03:04:35.729
funny thing for Dave Winfield, because see if

03:04:35.729 --> 03:04:39.360
there's another player that has this, Weird honor

03:04:39.360 --> 03:04:43.819
played for the Yankees for nine years, but his

03:04:43.819 --> 03:04:45.600
only world series ring was with another team

03:04:45.600 --> 03:04:48.139
after he left the Yankees. I don't know if you'll

03:04:48.139 --> 03:04:50.100
find a, yeah, I don't know if you'll find a player

03:04:50.100 --> 03:04:53.159
who played for the Yankees that long did not,

03:04:53.180 --> 03:04:54.920
not only didn't get a world series ring with

03:04:54.920 --> 03:04:58.000
the Yankees, but got it with another team. That's

03:04:58.000 --> 03:05:00.079
just a tip of the iceberg with George Steinbrenner.

03:05:00.180 --> 03:05:02.559
I wanted to talk about how he rose to power and

03:05:02.559 --> 03:05:04.559
how he's sort of similar to Ted Turner and that

03:05:04.559 --> 03:05:06.200
later in life. And we'll talk about this in the

03:05:06.200 --> 03:05:09.930
2000s episode. with the creation of the YES Network,

03:05:10.090 --> 03:05:13.350
branching away from MSG and creating his own

03:05:13.350 --> 03:05:15.129
revenue stream. In that regard, the Yankees are

03:05:15.129 --> 03:05:17.170
the biggest brand in the land. Understanding

03:05:17.170 --> 03:05:20.329
that there is power on television, while Ted

03:05:20.329 --> 03:05:22.950
Turner harnessed that first with WTBS, and maybe

03:05:22.950 --> 03:05:25.670
you can even argue Philip Wrigley with WGN. But

03:05:25.670 --> 03:05:27.670
the way that he was able to create that as a

03:05:27.670 --> 03:05:30.129
revenue stream was something that was greater

03:05:30.129 --> 03:05:32.440
than any other team could have imagined. through

03:05:32.440 --> 03:05:34.700
the YES Network, and through the late 90s after

03:05:34.700 --> 03:05:37.440
the 1994 strike, which is kind of how we're in

03:05:37.440 --> 03:05:39.780
the situation once again 30 years later where

03:05:39.780 --> 03:05:42.440
the Dodgers have a made -up TV deal and everyone's

03:05:42.440 --> 03:05:44.159
jealous of it, and maybe we'll be holding the

03:05:44.159 --> 03:05:48.280
sport hostage once again in 2026. That is the

03:05:48.280 --> 03:05:50.879
owners that we wanted to talk about. The nine

03:05:50.879 --> 03:05:53.239
owners. We know we left stuff on the cutting

03:05:53.239 --> 03:05:55.000
room floor. We know there are other owners we

03:05:55.000 --> 03:05:56.100
could have talked about. We could have talked

03:05:56.100 --> 03:05:57.379
about the McPhails. We could have talked about

03:05:57.379 --> 03:05:58.719
Webb and Topping. We could have talked about

03:05:58.719 --> 03:06:01.190
Marge Schott. We could have talked about... So

03:06:01.190 --> 03:06:03.209
many other owners. But I think this is a good

03:06:03.209 --> 03:06:06.190
starting nine, if you will. These are the big

03:06:06.190 --> 03:06:08.489
players that you hear a lot about throughout

03:06:08.489 --> 03:06:11.129
baseball history. And in the case of the last

03:06:11.129 --> 03:06:12.909
two, Ted Turner and George Steinbrenner, you're

03:06:12.909 --> 03:06:14.309
going to hear plenty more from them in this series.

03:06:14.930 --> 03:06:18.430
Yeah, this is definitely, I think this may, you

03:06:18.430 --> 03:06:21.209
know, kind of more inside baseball here on what

03:06:21.209 --> 03:06:23.190
we've been putting together here. But this may

03:06:23.190 --> 03:06:25.870
have been the most difficult. episode to do just

03:06:25.870 --> 03:06:27.709
because of how many different owners there are

03:06:27.709 --> 03:06:29.930
how many personalities so hopefully the nine

03:06:29.930 --> 03:06:32.950
we picked and going into what they do gives kind

03:06:32.950 --> 03:06:35.950
of paints a picture of what levers an owner controls

03:06:35.950 --> 03:06:39.049
what power an owner yields and how it's impacted

03:06:39.049 --> 03:06:41.969
as we're going to get into the advent of free

03:06:41.969 --> 03:06:46.219
agency the 90s the 2000s it how These people

03:06:46.219 --> 03:06:48.639
left a mark on baseball either through changing

03:06:48.639 --> 03:06:51.219
how a team is operated, changing how the league

03:06:51.219 --> 03:06:54.139
is operated, changing how money flows throughout

03:06:54.139 --> 03:06:56.479
baseball. But it's something we wanted to highlight

03:06:56.479 --> 03:07:00.100
just to kind of set the stage of what are the

03:07:00.100 --> 03:07:02.040
different players in this league. We have the

03:07:02.040 --> 03:07:04.979
MLBPA. We have the commissioners. Now we have

03:07:04.979 --> 03:07:07.000
the owners. Those are really the three tiers,

03:07:07.059 --> 03:07:09.239
the three things that we're going to really dig

03:07:09.239 --> 03:07:11.659
into when we start talking CBA negotiations.

03:07:13.399 --> 03:07:15.540
They all have a say, they all have goals, and

03:07:15.540 --> 03:07:17.540
they all have things that they want to accomplish,

03:07:17.659 --> 03:07:21.719
which will play in huge in 2027. So we've introduced

03:07:21.719 --> 03:07:25.680
the players, the players, the commissioners,

03:07:25.680 --> 03:07:28.739
the owners. Now we need to introduce the game.

03:07:28.959 --> 03:07:31.840
That is going to be episode four, the business

03:07:31.840 --> 03:07:35.659
of baseball. How do owners make money? How do

03:07:35.659 --> 03:07:38.579
players make money? And how does that relationship

03:07:38.579 --> 03:07:41.379
work together leading into labor negotiations?

03:07:41.959 --> 03:07:44.219
After we get through the business episode and

03:07:44.219 --> 03:07:45.979
once we try to teach you some things about how

03:07:45.979 --> 03:07:48.819
money is made and how the sausage is made, then

03:07:48.819 --> 03:07:51.459
we get back to learning from our past to prepare

03:07:51.459 --> 03:07:54.639
for our future. The split season of 81, the advent

03:07:54.639 --> 03:07:57.059
of free agency in the late 70s, the collusion

03:07:57.059 --> 03:07:59.840
of the 80s that George Steinbrenner is very involved

03:07:59.840 --> 03:08:02.579
in there too. We talk about the strike in 1994,

03:08:03.000 --> 03:08:06.280
the home run race, steroid era, all of that is

03:08:06.280 --> 03:08:08.760
still to come. Once we get through the business

03:08:08.760 --> 03:08:11.239
episode next month, then you're going to start

03:08:11.239 --> 03:08:13.040
hearing about things you've heard stories about

03:08:13.040 --> 03:08:15.360
your whole life. Oh yeah, they played two seasons

03:08:15.360 --> 03:08:18.520
and the Reds didn't, the Reds had the best record

03:08:18.520 --> 03:08:20.059
in baseball, but didn't make the playoffs. And

03:08:20.059 --> 03:08:22.920
you know, the collusion of Uber off in the eighties.

03:08:22.920 --> 03:08:25.280
And we talk about. you know, how the home run

03:08:25.280 --> 03:08:26.819
race saved baseball, but it might've been because

03:08:26.819 --> 03:08:30.120
of Andrew all along. I mean, this is a baseball

03:08:30.120 --> 03:08:34.200
history is coming on the horizon here and stay

03:08:34.200 --> 03:08:37.399
patient with us because I know clickbait is out

03:08:37.399 --> 03:08:39.860
there trying to get you on labor stuff and trying

03:08:39.860 --> 03:08:42.379
to understand, Oh, they want this. I'm like,

03:08:42.459 --> 03:08:44.979
well, We're trying to do the slow game here so

03:08:44.979 --> 03:08:47.700
that when we all wake up on December 2nd, you're

03:08:47.700 --> 03:08:49.680
going to have this whole catalog ready to go

03:08:49.680 --> 03:08:51.979
of how did we get here in the first place, and

03:08:51.979 --> 03:08:53.440
that's the game that we're trying to play. We're

03:08:53.440 --> 03:08:54.719
not trying to be the first to it. We're not trying

03:08:54.719 --> 03:08:56.299
to break news on this. We're trying to react

03:08:56.299 --> 03:08:58.940
to it all and put it in layman's terms for baseball

03:08:58.940 --> 03:09:02.159
fans like Scott and I to understand. So that's

03:09:02.159 --> 03:09:05.280
going to do it for this month's episode of the

03:09:05.280 --> 03:09:08.100
Service Time Podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

03:09:08.280 --> 03:09:11.239
This has been written and edited by Dominic Catronio

03:09:11.239 --> 03:09:14.770
and Scott Sweeney. We are doing this fully independently

03:09:14.770 --> 03:09:17.350
and supported by listeners like you. So you can

03:09:17.350 --> 03:09:19.770
head on over to Substack Service Time Podcast

03:09:19.770 --> 03:09:23.049
to subscribe for free, or you can support the

03:09:23.049 --> 03:09:25.649
content by paying for a paid subscription there

03:09:25.649 --> 03:09:29.170
as well. Next month's episode will be the business

03:09:29.170 --> 03:09:31.909
episode. What does that mean? Well, how do these

03:09:31.909 --> 03:09:35.690
guys make money? But we got to make sure to get

03:09:35.690 --> 03:09:37.729
the facts right. So we'll talk to you in about

03:09:37.729 --> 03:09:40.209
a month's time. We'll find you right around mid

03:09:40.209 --> 03:09:43.290
-July this time coming up as the summer months

03:09:43.290 --> 03:09:46.350
heat up. Thank you so much for listening. For

03:09:46.350 --> 03:09:49.250
my co -host, Scott Sweeney, I'm Dominic Cotroneo.

03:09:49.250 --> 03:09:50.270
Keep on swinging.