WEBVTT 00:04.622 --> 00:07.005 Okay, so welcome back everyone. 00:07.005 --> 00:08.827 Our guest for today is Jay. 00:08.827 --> 00:16.342 He has spent more than 20 years building tech products at major companies then walked away from the corporate life in 2025. 00:16.555 --> 00:20.178 So Jay, let's learn a little bit about you and your background. 00:20.875 --> 00:22.926 Sure, thank you, Mihir. 00:23.486 --> 00:26.808 As you rightly said, uh I'm Jay. 00:26.808 --> 00:29.729 I worked in tech for 20 plus years. 00:30.090 --> 00:37.634 I've worked in all kinds of companies from the largest like Amazon and to my own small startup. 00:37.634 --> 00:40.555 I've been through the entire spectrum. 00:42.157 --> 00:45.638 Like most of your listeners, I also was born and raised in India. 00:45.638 --> 00:50.763 um When did my undergrad in computer science came to America? 00:50.763 --> 00:54.514 more than two decades ago with this American dream. 00:55.275 --> 01:01.697 Landed in the land of opportunities, built my entire career, got married, had kids and whatnot. 01:01.818 --> 01:03.598 So life has been super rewarding. 01:03.598 --> 01:13.663 uh For last 20 plus years, I've spent uh most of my time building high tech products, working in tech companies, both on the engineering and the product side. 01:14.163 --> 01:16.584 In between, was also an entrepreneur. 01:16.584 --> 01:18.849 uh 01:18.849 --> 01:23.189 For the last couple of years, I was going through this in my head. 01:24.289 --> 01:26.669 How long do I want to this? 01:27.529 --> 01:39.389 Is this forever or do I want to do something else like as our kids are getting older, we were thinking about like, what is the second phase of our life? 01:39.709 --> 01:41.429 Like, what do we do? 01:41.429 --> 01:44.729 We don't want to be in this corporate grind forever. 01:45.369 --> 01:48.061 So I basically took the plunge. 01:48.061 --> 02:01.796 in November 2025, walked away from my corporate job, took a couple of months break completely to refresh myself and really think about what have I learned, what mistakes 02:01.796 --> 02:06.108 I've made, and how I'm going to progress forward. 02:07.008 --> 02:15.471 And now I am building two businesses, helping out one for my wife, another one I'm doing with my daughter. 02:17.236 --> 02:27.980 With my wife, we essentially run a real estate consulting specifically focused on global sovereignty and we can dig into this part. 02:28.401 --> 02:33.422 And one of the areas, one of the location that we focus on is Dubai. 02:33.422 --> 02:44.887 I know right now it's not in the best of the picture due to the unrest in the Middle East, but I think Dubai will come out much, much, much stronger from this than it ever was. 02:44.888 --> 02:46.398 So I'm not too worried. 02:46.504 --> 02:53.836 And the other one is with my daughter, there are some bits and pieces for my learnings about finance. 02:53.836 --> 02:54.926 It will be around finance. 02:54.926 --> 02:58.527 I'm not gonna disclose a lot because we'll be launching it in a few weeks. 02:58.527 --> 03:05.169 So please stay tuned and then we'll broadcast once that product is live. 03:05.209 --> 03:07.170 So that's in a nutshell about me. 03:07.170 --> 03:11.611 oh And I'm happy to dig into any part that you want to. 03:11.694 --> 03:12.275 sure. 03:12.275 --> 03:20.946 So like when did good career good money I know you have been in this industry for so long right so when did that stop feeling like enough for you. 03:21.888 --> 03:26.616 ah I think money is never enough to be honest. 03:27.840 --> 03:30.324 There's this whole idea of... 03:32.320 --> 03:35.720 You know, knowing what, what do you really want? 03:36.940 --> 03:40.680 And my perspective on money is somewhat different than a lot of people. 03:40.680 --> 03:42.480 Like lot of people work from a number. 03:42.480 --> 03:46.080 If I had X crores, I'll be OK. 03:46.780 --> 03:48.680 That's a fallacy in my mind. 03:48.680 --> 03:53.120 And the reason it's a fallacy is that's a moving goalpost. 03:53.120 --> 03:56.000 When you reach one crore, your goal moves to two. 03:56.000 --> 03:59.980 When you reach two, your goal moves to three, five, ten, twenty, thirty. 04:00.050 --> 04:03.312 and you go to Reddit and other places, people are throwing all kinds of numbers. 04:03.312 --> 04:05.362 Right. 04:06.143 --> 04:11.625 I would rather say start from what kind of life do I want? 04:12.606 --> 04:17.539 Like when I define my ideal life, then basically work. 04:17.539 --> 04:20.210 What do I need to afford this life? 04:20.210 --> 04:21.401 I'm not chasing a number. 04:21.401 --> 04:22.781 I'm chasing a life. 04:23.246 --> 04:25.466 But so for example here, right? 04:25.466 --> 04:26.526 Just hear me out. 04:26.526 --> 04:31.866 Like let's say there are lot of people today who are kind of who earned a lot, right? 04:31.866 --> 04:38.946 For example, like if you had a big tech career, maybe when you were your 35 and your 40, you want to try retiring. 04:38.946 --> 04:40.586 But then. 04:40.898 --> 04:52.912 they like do you think when whatever idea they have of life that they want to live right now is going to be the same let's say 10 years 15 years from now because like you said 04:52.912 --> 05:00.904 right like if you said one crore two crores is not enough then how do know that the lifestyle that you want is going to be enough for the rest of your life 05:00.904 --> 05:01.674 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 05:01.674 --> 05:02.902 uh 05:05.065 --> 05:07.094 So the funny thing is... 05:09.011 --> 05:15.635 Again, I'm not talking about anybody thinking of, of I'm going to fire in my early thirties. 05:16.016 --> 05:16.756 Right. 05:16.756 --> 05:26.352 Somebody who's in mid forties, like 40 mid forties, when you already at the peak of your life, you already have kids, you're married, you know, you're your parents and whatnot. 05:26.352 --> 05:28.383 Your family isn't growing anymore. 05:29.524 --> 05:30.424 Right. 05:30.485 --> 05:38.950 From that point on, if you look 10 years out and say, let's say, you know, I don't know your situation, but like 10 years ago, when my kids were younger. 05:39.569 --> 05:44.452 I would have imagined I want a place where the kids have freedom to run around. 05:44.452 --> 05:47.584 They would have their own rooms. 05:48.125 --> 05:51.006 When the time needs, we can have our own space. 05:51.006 --> 05:54.208 The kids can have their own space. 05:54.389 --> 06:00.692 it's large enough for that mobility, but it's small enough for us to be able to see each other every day. 06:01.353 --> 06:03.374 Once we defined that, it was much easier. 06:03.374 --> 06:09.218 Because we know, now we are at a stage of life when our older one is already in college. 06:09.218 --> 06:09.808 Mm. 06:09.808 --> 06:12.338 our younger one goes to college next year. 06:13.419 --> 06:16.639 So we are only gonna downsize from here. 06:17.140 --> 06:20.260 There is no growing from here, there's only downsizing from here. 06:20.260 --> 06:22.681 So we are at the peak of what we want. 06:23.581 --> 06:29.763 Sure, I probably would want more travel for 10 years, but I won't be traveling 25 years from now. 06:30.563 --> 06:38.024 So there is this whole idea of there is a peak and then your expenses start declining. 06:38.080 --> 06:38.874 Right. 06:39.698 --> 06:47.082 Like I can tell you from my own experience, when I was in twenties, I fancied, you know, nice cars and whatnot. 06:47.082 --> 06:48.802 I don't give a damn anymore. 06:50.143 --> 06:52.684 I'm happy driving a Honda or Toyota. 06:52.885 --> 06:53.685 And that's practice. 06:53.685 --> 06:55.526 Actually, that's what I drive today. 06:56.167 --> 07:02.449 Whereas 15 years ago, when I was in my early thirties, I had a BMW. 07:03.510 --> 07:05.891 I made that mistake, learned my lesson. 07:06.272 --> 07:09.253 Job of car is to take you from one place to another place. 07:09.758 --> 07:10.698 forget it. 07:11.460 --> 07:18.347 So the point here is you have to realize what is that peak of your life. 07:18.729 --> 07:22.863 Sure, everybody wants to be an Ambani, but how many of you will be? 07:23.094 --> 07:23.890 Right. 07:24.510 --> 07:25.590 Right? 07:25.614 --> 07:27.798 So I think that's the more important part. 07:27.798 --> 07:31.958 calculation from there saying, okay, this is going to be what my peak will look like. 07:31.958 --> 07:42.298 And from there is going to be kind of a downward journey where, um, you know, I've kind of figured out that these are my wants, these are my needs, and this is how my life is going 07:42.298 --> 07:46.938 to be for the next, you know, whatever 30, 35, 40 years that I'm going to stay. 07:47.262 --> 07:48.202 Yeah, yeah. 07:48.202 --> 07:54.142 So the other way to think about this is, let's say somebody wants to retire in India, right? 07:54.142 --> 07:57.742 You could be a mountain person, you could be a beach person, you could be a city person. 07:57.742 --> 08:00.342 You pick what you want, right? 08:00.342 --> 08:06.782 Let's say you are a beach person and you say, okay, I want to retire in Goa, right? 08:06.782 --> 08:12.622 In Goa, I would want to have a three-bedroom apartment to live where, you know, 08:12.943 --> 08:17.106 If I'm retiring with younger kids, they're with me, but eventually they'll go out with me and my wife. 08:17.106 --> 08:18.257 Right. 08:18.257 --> 08:19.377 That's it. 08:19.477 --> 08:22.679 And what does it cost today? 08:23.040 --> 08:24.471 Pick up the nicest area. 08:24.471 --> 08:27.722 Like pick up the nicest things that you can fancy. 08:28.823 --> 08:30.495 I'm not one of those penny pinchers. 08:30.495 --> 08:34.557 I don't want anybody to say, because I want to retire early, I'm going to cut everything. 08:34.557 --> 08:36.689 Right. 08:36.689 --> 08:40.051 Define the ideal dream life you want. 08:40.632 --> 08:41.942 Aim for that. 08:42.225 --> 08:44.014 not for a money goal. 08:44.640 --> 08:52.134 right and then you plan your and then you plan their expenses according to that goal then m 08:53.181 --> 08:55.381 Yes, it's in my mind. 08:55.381 --> 08:57.181 It's all goal based, right? 08:57.181 --> 08:59.441 If you make money your goal. 09:00.141 --> 09:01.401 That goal is never enough. 09:01.401 --> 09:03.661 That goal is never accomplished. 09:04.881 --> 09:07.401 Right, because your your desires keep changing, right? 09:07.401 --> 09:13.841 Earlier you were going taking domestic vacations, your income increase, you want to take international vacations, you were traveling economy first. 09:13.841 --> 09:16.061 Now you want to go in business class, right? 09:16.061 --> 09:17.381 Earlier you were staying in budget hotels. 09:17.381 --> 09:19.081 Now I wouldn't want to stay in five stars. 09:19.081 --> 09:20.661 Things don't end. 09:20.822 --> 09:21.211 Right. 09:21.211 --> 09:22.988 define what your ideal life is. 09:22.988 --> 09:28.084 And the most important part here I would say is be on the same page with your partner. 09:29.326 --> 09:30.153 Great. 09:30.704 --> 09:32.554 That's the most important. 09:34.039 --> 09:39.993 Yeah, I think I wanted to talk about that maybe at the end, uh know, talk about family and other things. 09:39.993 --> 09:44.496 So I think we'll start off with like, I know you've achieved financial independence. 09:44.496 --> 09:46.888 So what part of fire is math? 09:46.888 --> 09:50.230 And what part of this is actually psychology? 09:51.900 --> 09:55.126 oh A big part is psychology. 09:57.962 --> 10:03.086 Again, as I saying earlier, defining what you want is psychology. 10:03.748 --> 10:10.374 And I don't know if people have read oh some psychology of money by Morgan Housel. 10:11.376 --> 10:15.950 He very recently came out with another book called as Art of Spending Money. 10:16.140 --> 10:17.804 Yeah, I saw that. 10:17.882 --> 10:18.132 Right. 10:18.132 --> 10:20.303 So I've read both of them multiple times. 10:20.303 --> 10:22.473 He also has a third book, same as ever. 10:22.574 --> 10:25.114 But these two books are specifically to money. 10:25.794 --> 10:34.178 And one thing he talks in art of spending money, which is which basically resonated with me, kind of aligned with how I was thinking about stuff. 10:34.818 --> 10:47.843 Was he said, imagine that you are living on a remote island with your family and there's nobody seeing you, nobody. 10:49.092 --> 10:51.253 and then define what your life is. 10:51.854 --> 10:54.035 Because that's the life you want. 10:54.035 --> 10:58.738 Everything else we end up doing because we want to show it to somebody else. 10:58.979 --> 11:02.861 A lot of people don't buy fancy cars because they want it. 11:02.861 --> 11:11.947 They buy fancy cars because they think when people look them in the fancy cars, they will look of them differently. 11:11.947 --> 11:17.941 majority reality is when people look at somebody in a fancy car, they're looking at the car, not at the person. 11:18.690 --> 11:31.282 Yeah, I think I read that somewhere that when you ask somebody, if somebody goes in a fancy car and then if there is a bystander and if they ask them, uh what did you think 11:31.282 --> 11:32.673 about him or the car? 11:32.673 --> 11:33.204 Right. 11:33.204 --> 11:37.058 Like they always talk about the car and not the person actually sitting inside. 11:37.058 --> 11:42.833 So it's all about whether what kind of uh car you want to drive to show it to others. 11:42.833 --> 11:43.673 Right. 11:44.197 --> 11:45.449 Yeah, exactly. 11:45.449 --> 11:45.949 Exactly. 11:45.949 --> 11:50.944 It's all about like your perception superimposed on what everybody else is thinking. 11:52.835 --> 12:00.104 Okay, so uh in couple of your interviews I have seen you said that financial independence is not just about saving money, right? 12:00.104 --> 12:02.927 It's more about building a life you actually want to live. 12:02.927 --> 12:05.649 So what does that look like in practice though? 12:07.465 --> 12:11.977 So for me, like as you were talking backstage, 12:14.299 --> 12:17.199 Financial independence comes hand in hand. 12:17.199 --> 12:29.059 Financial independence in my mind is there is a freedom to do what you want, when you want, with whoever you want. 12:29.159 --> 12:39.559 For an example, if I want to go out for lunch on a Wednesday with my wife, I shouldn't be looking at my calendar saying, oh, I have this meeting. 12:39.559 --> 12:41.459 Oh, let me ask my boss. 12:41.759 --> 12:43.097 Oh, it's, you know, 12:43.097 --> 12:49.260 be impromptu, we just decided you want to go off or for a coffee or, you know what? 12:49.260 --> 12:57.594 There is this nice, oh you know, theater that we know there's a show that we want to go, but it happens on Thursday at one p.m. 12:58.455 --> 12:58.885 Sure. 12:58.885 --> 13:01.497 Right. 13:01.497 --> 13:04.478 That that's the true definition. 13:04.478 --> 13:12.342 Financial independence is not about how much money is the independence of doing what you want to do, not 13:12.472 --> 13:14.194 what you have to do. 13:14.798 --> 13:15.693 Mm. 13:15.693 --> 13:21.677 subtle difference in words, but it's a very profound difference once you understand it. 13:22.299 --> 13:35.529 lot of people that I have met come across and met in my career, in my life, they are in the professions and the careers because that gives them the paycheck, not because they 13:35.529 --> 13:38.682 want to be in that profession. 13:38.682 --> 13:40.593 That's the truth, hard truth. 13:42.243 --> 13:43.064 Right. 13:43.369 --> 13:46.607 So I know you are. 13:46.607 --> 13:50.300 uh So I want to get into your investing philosophy as well a little bit, right? 13:50.300 --> 13:53.373 I know you are big into Bitcoin, into AI. 13:53.373 --> 13:57.872 So can you talk us a little bit about like did that come from the start? 13:57.872 --> 14:01.080 Because I mean, I know Bitcoin was not there maybe when you started investing, right? 14:01.080 --> 14:03.022 But what was that journey like? 14:03.022 --> 14:11.909 When did you think about fire and when did that turn, you know, kind of into a thought that, okay, this is something that I want to really do. 14:12.890 --> 14:22.050 So unlike a lot of people, I'm not a big time, like old time fire pursuant now. 14:22.610 --> 14:23.410 Right? 14:23.410 --> 14:32.710 I came across fire during the COVID time or like right before that time, like 2029, 2019 or 2020 something. 14:35.082 --> 14:35.884 Um 14:38.292 --> 14:45.467 That said, in my mind, the definition of fire is not retiring early. 14:46.609 --> 14:52.833 In my mind, when I look at the re of fire, I think of it as recreationally employed. 14:54.695 --> 14:59.119 And not as in I am just killing my time as a barista. 14:59.119 --> 15:01.800 Maybe for some people that might be the goal. 15:02.641 --> 15:07.545 But for me, it's like I wanted to spend time with my family to help our 15:07.545 --> 15:10.145 with the things that they wanted to do. 15:10.405 --> 15:12.045 Now I can. 15:12.345 --> 15:17.945 Earlier I didn't have time because I was in meetings from eight to six and by the time I came out, I was drained. 15:18.545 --> 15:21.785 I had no energy, no mental capacity to think about anything. 15:22.625 --> 15:26.525 So that in my mind is the fire definition. 15:26.525 --> 15:32.705 So I was thinking about this for a very long time, for the last five, six years. 15:33.285 --> 15:37.745 The only thing that was holding me was 15:38.667 --> 15:41.401 I didn't want to leave a job. 15:41.401 --> 15:47.128 I wanted to get into the new chapter and I wasn't sure what the new chapter was. 15:47.369 --> 15:51.714 I didn't want to just quit my job, sit home, binge watch Netflix. 15:52.256 --> 15:54.058 That's not what I wanted to do. 15:54.593 --> 16:06.061 Not even a little bit at the start because that's what I've seen a lot of stories where they say, okay, I retired and then I did all of these things, binge watch this, did that 16:06.061 --> 16:07.201 for six, seven months. 16:07.201 --> 16:10.924 And then I realized, okay, this is not something that's sustainable for the long term. 16:10.924 --> 16:13.946 And then I started thinking about what I want to do next. 16:14.137 --> 16:17.039 Yeah, so sure, I took a couple of months break too. 16:17.039 --> 16:22.182 But the point I'm trying to make here is like one of my early mentors suggested this to me. 16:23.023 --> 16:27.106 Always run towards something, don't run from something. 16:27.527 --> 16:33.851 So I wanted to be sure what I'm retiring to, because it was always clear what I'm retiring from. 16:34.832 --> 16:35.752 Right. 16:35.933 --> 16:38.594 So that clarity was super important. 16:38.594 --> 16:41.080 I got that clarity over last, you know, 16:41.080 --> 16:47.784 12, 18 months, so I basically phased it out and eventually I found like last, end of last year was the right time. 16:49.387 --> 16:52.824 Now you talked about the investing philosophy. 16:52.824 --> 16:53.597 Mm. 16:56.062 --> 17:01.437 I wasn't a very uh informed investor from the early stages. 17:01.437 --> 17:07.201 Like many of us who were born in India, of our parents were never into investing. 17:07.542 --> 17:12.825 The best they ever did was bought a piece of land or bought some gold and that was it. 17:15.788 --> 17:18.410 Yeah, the biggest scams of the world. 17:18.731 --> 17:25.296 But uh one thing that was very clear to me from very early stages, 17:27.181 --> 17:30.623 which was like my dad was a government servant. 17:30.623 --> 17:33.204 So he had a pension when he retired. 17:33.805 --> 17:36.206 I knew I'm in a corporate job. 17:36.527 --> 17:39.538 There is no pension waiting for me on the other side. 17:40.750 --> 17:41.546 state. 17:41.688 --> 17:50.508 And in very early parts of my career, I saw big downfalls, big declines. 17:50.508 --> 17:52.988 Like I saw global financial crisis. 17:53.448 --> 17:59.388 I was coming into workforce when 9-11 happened and all that stuff happened. 17:59.388 --> 18:07.288 So that between 2000 and 2008-9, there were so much disruption. 18:07.648 --> 18:09.858 So I saw layoffs. 18:09.858 --> 18:12.710 fireings happening very early on in my life. 18:14.472 --> 18:18.334 So I knew that there is no guarantee of the job. 18:18.415 --> 18:29.503 So I took that very close to my heart and I was maximizing my 401Ks from the day I started getting my paycheck in the US. 18:30.865 --> 18:32.245 From that day on. 18:33.026 --> 18:34.508 But that was my only thing. 18:34.508 --> 18:37.810 For the longest time, I didn't even know where my money was parked. 18:38.286 --> 18:39.270 Mm. 18:39.690 --> 18:41.592 It was parked in Target date funds. 18:41.592 --> 18:44.334 That was a default that fidelity does and whatnot. 18:44.334 --> 18:46.523 And I had no idea what Target date funds were. 18:46.523 --> 18:46.946 I'm fine. 18:46.946 --> 18:48.327 It's doing something good. 18:48.327 --> 18:51.449 eh I was not doing any investments. 18:52.190 --> 18:58.147 Then I slowly started, you know, coming to know other people that shared information. 18:58.147 --> 19:02.559 I started doing a little bit of investing here and there. 19:02.559 --> 19:07.950 But the biggest mistakes I made on that path was anytime there was big expense, 19:07.950 --> 19:08.579 Hmm. 19:08.579 --> 19:11.539 we are buying a house, we need to make a down payment. 19:12.599 --> 19:14.579 Sell everything, put it here. 19:14.719 --> 19:17.459 Oh, I'm doing an MBA, I have to pay a fee. 19:17.639 --> 19:20.159 Sell investments, put the money here. 19:20.619 --> 19:25.439 Something else come, we are going for a vacation, we need 20 grand. 19:25.559 --> 19:26.879 Sell everything. 19:27.019 --> 19:30.619 So we made those mistakes plenty of times. 19:30.619 --> 19:31.798 Plenty of times. 19:31.798 --> 19:32.738 Mm. 19:33.912 --> 19:44.372 It was not until like 2015, 2016 when I basically started my wrapping my head around money needs time to work. 19:44.372 --> 19:50.651 You can't put money and look at it in six months, 12 months later and they all, what did it do for me? 19:51.172 --> 19:51.492 Right? 19:51.492 --> 19:53.052 That was the key learning. 19:53.052 --> 19:55.252 And that's when I started digging more. 19:55.252 --> 20:03.983 I learned about all of this thing like buy, borrow, die strategy, power of compounding, everything that comes along came after that. 20:04.430 --> 20:05.173 Okay. 20:05.239 --> 20:11.623 uh But the best thing was I never touched my 401k. 20:11.944 --> 20:16.066 I still haven't and I still can't touch for another 15 plus years. 20:16.718 --> 20:18.579 But that brings me an interesting point, right? 20:18.579 --> 20:22.773 Like you're saying between 2015 and 2025 is when you retired, right? 20:22.773 --> 20:34.632 So in a span of 10 years, you were able to actually go from, let's say, no aim in life for financially to become financially independent, right? 20:34.632 --> 20:36.153 That's crazy for me, right? 20:36.153 --> 20:37.254 em 20:37.660 --> 20:41.943 So this is where the seriousness came. 20:41.964 --> 20:47.408 So good thing that comes alongside of that was my career was doing very well. 20:48.629 --> 20:58.577 So through those last 10, 12 years, only my markets did very well, but my income did very well. 20:59.678 --> 21:05.047 And because the learnings came, I was able to divert more money towards investment and not 21:05.047 --> 21:05.906 That's it. 21:05.998 --> 21:07.078 Mm. 21:07.572 --> 21:09.614 than I was ever able to do before. 21:10.702 --> 21:11.136 state. 21:11.136 --> 21:11.906 Right. 21:12.247 --> 21:29.271 So the key thing here is and this is what I've been teaching my kids off lately is no education system in the teaches you what to do with money when you have a little nobody no 21:29.271 --> 21:39.702 country no school no university they don't teach that in on top our society is kind of you know m 21:39.702 --> 21:43.882 groomed in a way that they push you towards spending. 21:44.382 --> 21:56.082 As they funny say, when you go ahead and buy a $100,000 car and take a $2,500 installment on that, people think you're doing very well. 21:56.782 --> 22:06.202 But if you put like $2,000 toward S &P 500 or Nifty 50, people think you're stupid. 22:06.202 --> 22:07.822 Like what's gonna that do? 22:08.120 --> 22:08.892 Yeah. 22:10.182 --> 22:14.460 people don't realize that power of compounding is a real thing. 22:16.234 --> 22:21.214 So how did your investments change like the philosophy that you had, right? 22:21.214 --> 22:27.674 Like when, let's say when you were starting out in 2015, 2016, versus when you retired in 2025, right? 22:27.674 --> 22:33.754 what, like two things I want to know is one is how did the investment philosophies change? 22:33.754 --> 22:38.634 And the second is how did that look like from a numbers point of view, right? 22:38.634 --> 22:43.854 Like from your asset allocation and things like that, what changed in these span of 10 years? 22:44.886 --> 22:49.244 oh I think the philosophy changed that 22:51.153 --> 22:58.146 I was very clear any money that I'm putting in is not gonna come out anytime soon, right? 22:58.146 --> 23:02.283 So I was basically starting to think in, okay, what are my goals? 23:02.283 --> 23:08.468 The goals are my daughter has to go to college, my son has to go to college, right? 23:08.468 --> 23:16.984 Then when we retire, we have to find a retirement home and we have to sell our primary home and then we have to retire and in retirement, we need to travel. 23:16.984 --> 23:19.597 So I was thinking in goals like that. 23:19.704 --> 23:20.462 Mm. 23:20.822 --> 23:27.965 So the goal and any money that was put towards a longer term goal would stick there for longer term. 23:27.965 --> 23:31.966 So you can like in the fire terminology, they say the bucket strategy. 23:31.966 --> 23:34.987 I don't call it specifically bucket strategy. 23:35.067 --> 23:37.268 In my mind, I'm tying it to goals. 23:38.269 --> 23:46.791 So any money that I've tied for my like retirement retirement, which is let's say 20 plus years away, I'm not gonna touch that money for 20 plus years. 23:47.312 --> 23:50.893 So my retirement accounts, they're locked. 23:51.550 --> 23:57.522 So they are sorted out so that one goal is taken care of and and that clarity was there from 2015-2016 itself. 23:59.560 --> 24:04.301 As I started building my philosophy there, that was the first thing I realized. 24:04.301 --> 24:04.681 Okay, you what? 24:04.681 --> 24:06.281 This is how I'm gonna think. 24:06.461 --> 24:11.181 I'm gonna keep a little bit of money for me for the emergency stuff. 24:11.181 --> 24:15.801 Again, I'm not a big proponent people say one year, two year, three years. 24:15.841 --> 24:25.421 I don't keep that much cash because once your portfolio is at a certain level, you can always generate cash if you need them anyways. 24:25.429 --> 24:28.169 And especially living in America, you have credit cards. 24:28.169 --> 24:35.049 If you urgently, like if you are, I have to go tonight somewhere and have to spend $20,000, you can. 24:35.829 --> 24:42.749 And you can tomorrow, day after tomorrow, or you have like 30 days on the card to generate the cash, which you can. 24:43.989 --> 24:44.489 Right. 24:44.489 --> 24:46.709 So that was the thing. 24:46.709 --> 24:48.589 I was not a stock picker. 24:48.589 --> 24:49.869 I'm not a stock picker. 24:49.869 --> 24:51.929 I don't want to be a stock picker. 24:51.929 --> 24:54.229 I burnt my hands, tried there. 24:54.229 --> 24:55.654 Not good with it. 24:55.654 --> 24:56.104 Stop it. 24:56.104 --> 25:01.576 um I'm big time, I was big time index fund investor. 25:01.576 --> 25:04.006 Majority of my funds still stay in index funds. 25:04.006 --> 25:05.767 I'm not a gold investor. 25:07.147 --> 25:12.049 I don't believe in gold for many different reasons and we can talk about it if you're interested. 25:12.909 --> 25:14.469 I don't believe in bonds. 25:15.150 --> 25:20.071 I know there are people who basically say there are bonds that help. 25:20.111 --> 25:23.612 I've replaced the bonds with real estate. 25:23.982 --> 25:25.485 Yeah, I think that that's interesting, right? 25:25.485 --> 25:28.029 Let's let's get into the gold plus the bonds part. 25:28.029 --> 25:30.631 I think that is something pretty interesting. 25:30.631 --> 25:31.353 Yeah. 25:31.353 --> 25:32.154 So. 25:35.422 --> 25:39.293 Gold has many issues. 25:39.453 --> 25:41.093 Let's start with gold, right? 25:41.194 --> 25:45.375 Gold in my mind has only two use. 25:45.735 --> 25:47.155 One is the industrial use. 25:47.155 --> 25:49.196 It gets used in some industries. 25:49.196 --> 25:49.956 Very good. 25:49.956 --> 25:51.677 We should continue using it. 25:51.997 --> 25:55.258 Second is jewelry, ornaments. 25:55.778 --> 26:01.940 Sure, if your wife wants to have gold bangles or uh gold chain, by all means. 26:04.670 --> 26:12.562 Buying a gold bar and putting it in a safe and holding it is stupid. 26:13.543 --> 26:15.323 Now, why is it stupid? 26:16.204 --> 26:19.745 somebody was looking at this was, gold has done so well in two hours. 26:19.745 --> 26:21.305 Also, last two years, sorry. 26:21.305 --> 26:22.246 Yeah. 26:23.586 --> 26:26.567 But what has gold done in the last 20 years? 26:28.755 --> 26:29.875 Right. 26:29.875 --> 26:30.695 Gold. 26:30.695 --> 26:36.315 Again, I don't know the Indian rupee prices very fresh, but I know dollar prices. 26:36.315 --> 26:38.195 I'll give you a correct example. 26:38.195 --> 26:39.895 Then people can check this data. 26:40.555 --> 26:46.355 In 2011, gold touched about 18 or 19 hundred dollars an ounce. 26:46.355 --> 26:48.535 An ounce is thirty one point one grams. 26:49.695 --> 26:50.355 Right. 26:50.355 --> 26:53.055 And then it fell to twelve hundred an ounce. 26:54.115 --> 26:58.375 It took more than 10 years to break 19. 26:59.827 --> 27:02.247 Sure, it's over $5,000 today. 27:02.927 --> 27:07.627 But if you were sitting on that for 10 years, would you still hold it? 27:07.730 --> 27:08.770 Mm. 27:09.117 --> 27:10.370 first thing, right? 27:10.370 --> 27:15.843 The second issue with that is the safety and security. 27:16.046 --> 27:17.062 Hmm. 27:17.894 --> 27:20.547 in a place like India or even the US, right? 27:20.728 --> 27:27.656 If somebody knows, oh, Mahir has five gold bars in his house, what's happening next? 27:28.398 --> 27:36.347 A group of mobsters will show up at your door with guns and everything else, and they'll take the gold from you. 27:36.950 --> 27:43.022 Right, so physical gold I understand but like what about ETFs and things like that like there are lot of options these days. 27:45.769 --> 27:46.669 Okay. 27:48.009 --> 27:51.035 If you don't want to buy physical gold. 27:52.913 --> 27:55.425 Why buy gold then? 27:55.425 --> 27:59.287 So ETFs, you don't have claim on physical gold. 27:59.708 --> 28:06.173 The purpose of gold always has been as an inflation hedge. 28:07.334 --> 28:11.877 If you hold a paper, what do you hold? 28:11.877 --> 28:19.793 And I don't know how many people know it, but if you look at the data, you'll find out in gold and silver, depending on what data you use. 28:20.359 --> 28:27.523 The claims are one is to 30 to one is 200 for one ounce of gold or one ounce of silver. 28:27.603 --> 28:32.725 There could be 30 to 100 claims that I this is mine. 28:33.406 --> 28:35.527 Do what you do with this information. 28:36.839 --> 28:37.163 Right. 28:37.163 --> 28:43.851 So if you want to invest in in an ETF freaking buy S &P 500 and chill. 28:44.532 --> 28:45.732 Just chill. 28:46.853 --> 28:47.854 Why bother. 28:47.854 --> 28:48.624 Right. 28:48.624 --> 28:50.624 The third issue with gold is... 28:53.008 --> 29:03.901 Let's say people in Middle East right now, when this uh unrest started, people wanted to leave overnight. 29:04.641 --> 29:10.043 You can leave, can liquidate your uh brokerage account later and wire the money. 29:11.923 --> 29:13.964 How will you take your gold? 29:14.864 --> 29:20.786 If anybody has any doubts, no matter where you are in the world, try taking... 29:20.786 --> 29:21.778 uh 29:21.778 --> 29:23.984 200, 500 grams of gold with you. 29:23.984 --> 29:26.852 I'm not even talking about in kilograms, right? 29:26.852 --> 29:31.121 Just try taking out that out through an airport and see what happens. 29:32.445 --> 29:33.305 Right. 29:33.875 --> 29:34.265 Right? 29:34.265 --> 29:36.039 So mobility isn't there. 29:36.361 --> 29:37.983 Safety isn't there. 29:39.388 --> 29:44.291 It does very well in certain periods, but doesn't absolutely nothing in others. 29:44.291 --> 29:45.031 Mm. 29:46.180 --> 29:47.553 And what's the point? 29:47.556 --> 29:51.619 And the most important thing is selling gold is so hard. 29:52.078 --> 29:52.867 Mm. 29:53.360 --> 30:04.436 It's so hard, it's not like you have SPY, you can log into your Robinhood tomorrow and basically say, okay, I want to sell one share of SPY and you get the exact market price or 30:04.436 --> 30:08.078 the mid price and you have your cash next day. 30:08.726 --> 30:09.307 Right. 30:09.307 --> 30:19.143 But like if you see from from an industry perspective, right, like I've I've heard a lot of even asset management companies and people who are managing a lot of money, even they 30:19.143 --> 30:28.570 have some piece of it in gold because it looks like when the markets are going down and things like that, it's a hedge against those kind of things. 30:28.570 --> 30:29.020 Right. 30:29.020 --> 30:37.206 So like I know you're saying don't have a lot of gold, but should you at least have some percentage of your assets in gold? 30:39.524 --> 30:43.276 If you want to have gold, have physical gold. 30:43.278 --> 30:43.540 Okay. 30:43.540 --> 30:45.362 oh 30:45.362 --> 30:49.162 I don't believe in wealth managers. 30:49.162 --> 30:59.582 I don't believe in asset managers because their primary job is to make things look very complex to you and shave fees. 31:01.601 --> 31:04.702 Look at all these ETFs like gold ETF in the US itself. 31:04.702 --> 31:09.922 I think it's like 0.2 or 0.25 % of AUM. 31:10.262 --> 31:14.779 So every year you're losing quarter percent to them irrespective 31:14.779 --> 31:16.716 Gold did anything or not. 31:16.716 --> 31:19.735 At least physical bar at your gold is not losing value. 31:19.790 --> 31:20.775 . 31:20.775 --> 31:21.696 Right. 31:22.825 --> 31:24.228 Yeah, make sense. 31:24.317 --> 31:27.117 So the other thing to note is. 31:27.377 --> 31:30.637 And I shared this with my daughter's podcast, too. 31:31.857 --> 31:39.937 Whenever somebody is pushing any kind of investment to you, be it your wealth manager, be it a financial advisor, be it whoever. 31:40.557 --> 31:42.117 Just ask yourself. 31:44.813 --> 31:46.954 How does it benefit them? 31:47.515 --> 31:49.536 And how does it benefit you? 31:49.536 --> 31:54.999 If both of those incentives are not aligned, don't do it. 31:55.560 --> 32:03.754 And majority of the times these wealth managers, wealth advisors, these financial advisors, they make their fee irrespective you made any money or not. 32:04.503 --> 32:05.328 Right. 32:05.872 --> 32:11.412 right, because they usually charge a percentage of asset under management, AUM. 32:11.412 --> 32:17.632 So you lose anywhere from 0.7 to 1.2 to 1.5 % every year. 32:17.732 --> 32:24.172 And if they get returns better than the market, they might shave off some from that too. 32:25.132 --> 32:27.852 So why bother? 32:30.244 --> 32:39.776 And I think Warren Buffett said it very rightly, more than 90 % of these wealth managers, financial advisors will never beat the market. 32:39.886 --> 32:40.948 Mm. 32:41.520 --> 32:43.072 So just buy the market. 32:44.354 --> 32:44.654 Right. 32:44.654 --> 32:45.424 Right. 32:45.445 --> 32:50.649 If you believe in gold by all means, but don't fall for paper gold. 32:50.770 --> 32:53.302 Do not buy physical gold. 32:53.302 --> 32:54.623 Take take custody. 32:54.623 --> 32:55.954 Take security. 32:56.995 --> 32:58.427 And do it just like land. 32:58.427 --> 33:04.762 Like, would you just buy a piece of land on paper and not actually have custody of that land? 33:04.903 --> 33:05.933 No, right? 33:06.824 --> 33:07.684 Yeah. 33:07.964 --> 33:08.265 Okay. 33:08.265 --> 33:10.827 I think let's, let's talk a little bit more on that. 33:10.827 --> 33:12.848 Like what about real estate? 33:12.848 --> 33:16.200 Like, do you think that should play a part in your asset allocation? 33:17.007 --> 33:18.788 Um, yes. 33:20.049 --> 33:23.351 But in my mind, real estate plays two games. 33:24.292 --> 33:29.375 Or it plays two roles, not games in this in games, but it plays two roles in my portfolios. 33:30.115 --> 33:36.559 One, it basically does what fixed income or debt does, or bonds to, right? 33:36.559 --> 33:38.921 Bond, debt, same thing. 33:39.481 --> 33:42.603 They generate income. 33:42.766 --> 33:43.718 Hmm. 33:43.767 --> 33:47.562 and they provide some level of stability to the overall portfolio. 33:48.800 --> 33:49.594 Right. 33:49.647 --> 33:50.567 Right. 33:50.927 --> 33:52.827 And guess what? 33:54.447 --> 33:59.647 More than stability, what is more effective is that income. 34:00.207 --> 34:05.467 If you have a fixed, consistent income, your portfolio can go and up and down. 34:05.467 --> 34:06.387 doesn't matter. 34:06.387 --> 34:12.107 Like why when you are young and when you have active income and you're not reliant on your portfolio. 34:12.947 --> 34:18.487 The reason is you have an income, if portfolio goes down 30 percent, two years later, it will be up 50 percent. 34:18.487 --> 34:19.527 Who cares? 34:19.822 --> 34:20.708 Right. 34:20.900 --> 34:21.641 Right. 34:21.641 --> 34:23.621 It has happened so many times. 34:24.062 --> 34:30.186 So that is one part where it can replace the, you know, the bond part. 34:30.727 --> 34:31.607 Right. 34:31.687 --> 34:37.431 The second thing it does is it provides you location independence. 34:37.431 --> 34:42.055 I would never buy real estate in one location. 34:42.055 --> 34:49.099 Like I see I have a lot of friends who buy like five units in close proximity and whatnot. 34:50.647 --> 34:54.827 If something goes wrong in that area, what would you do? 34:54.827 --> 34:56.129 Where would you go? 34:56.478 --> 34:58.368 I had a similar question, right? 34:58.368 --> 35:09.415 So going back to your point where let's say whatever is happening in the Middle East right now, you said taking out gold is difficult, but let's say you have real estate there that 35:09.415 --> 35:11.617 itself is going to be even more difficult, right? 35:11.617 --> 35:15.039 Like how, because it's kind of an in liquid, in liquid asset, right? 35:15.039 --> 35:21.893 So if I have to leave the country today, like you said, I can liquidate all my stocks later and things like that and transfer the money. 35:21.893 --> 35:24.494 But what about the real estate that I have there? 35:25.753 --> 35:30.186 Great, this is a very good question and that's reason I would never go 100 % real estate. 35:32.368 --> 35:35.650 The key thing here is real estate is a liquid asset. 35:37.012 --> 35:40.634 So I would never go 100 % real estate. 35:41.576 --> 35:50.382 In my mind, I've only been, if you look at the 60-40 portfolio, so I've replaced some part of this 40 with real estate. 35:50.983 --> 35:55.303 So if you look at my portfolio, my real estate would be about 30%. 35:56.399 --> 36:03.314 So, now that you are talking about your asset allocation let us complete that piece right 60 percent and 40 percent. 36:03.314 --> 36:09.174 30 % is, so traditional 60-40 portfolio is 60 % equity, 40 % bonds. 36:09.174 --> 36:18.754 That has been a portfolio, at least in the US, that has been time tested, has weathered any kind of market for 30 plus year. 36:20.254 --> 36:26.094 know, Bengen was the study, Bengen was the guy who did the study, who came up with the 4 % rule. 36:26.094 --> 36:31.022 Very recently he revised that rule to 4.7%, right? 36:31.022 --> 36:35.342 But that was predetermined on the 6040 portfolio. 36:38.572 --> 36:44.377 Before we go further into it, there's another point I would want to make about like why I don't believe in bonds anymore. 36:44.377 --> 36:48.910 So I don't know how many people actually observed it, but at least in the US. 36:50.762 --> 36:57.607 Since 2020, since 2022, bonds have crashed over 50%. 36:57.607 --> 37:08.954 In 2022, equity went down, bonds went down faster because of interest rate risk. 37:09.314 --> 37:13.857 People don't understand it when Fed increases the interest rate, bond prices crash. 37:14.094 --> 37:15.046 Mm. 37:15.821 --> 37:30.781 So in the whole idea of 60 40 portfolio where bonds provide you hedge against downfalls in 2022 it was more like a correlation one kind of an event where everything went down. 37:30.781 --> 37:36.981 Gold went down, real estate went down, equities went down, Bitcoin went down, like everything was down. 37:37.621 --> 37:39.781 So like what hedge did it provide me? 37:39.781 --> 37:41.181 Absolutely nothing. 37:41.606 --> 37:42.558 Mmm. 37:43.597 --> 37:44.397 Right. 37:44.397 --> 37:54.637 And in 2020, were, if you at the beginning of COVID, when fed cut the interest rates to zero, the interest payment went to almost zero. 37:54.717 --> 37:58.897 So you were not getting any payments and now you lost 50 % of value. 37:58.937 --> 37:59.977 Like stupid. 37:59.997 --> 38:00.937 Right. 38:00.937 --> 38:01.701 So 38:03.213 --> 38:06.493 What I did was I basically revised that. 38:06.573 --> 38:13.633 said 60 % is equity, 30 % is real estate, 10 % is my play money. 38:15.353 --> 38:22.653 This 10 % is what I put my hands into Bitcoin. 38:23.533 --> 38:28.333 And there is a reason why I put 10 % and now I can talk more about that. 38:28.333 --> 38:31.373 But I also do option selling. 38:32.427 --> 38:35.188 Not option buying, option selling. 38:35.554 --> 38:37.299 Because option selling... 38:37.299 --> 38:38.341 to get more into that right. 38:38.341 --> 38:40.374 Like I know you're a big believer in Bitcoin. 38:40.374 --> 38:47.657 So let's start with Bitcoin and then or maybe we can start with option selling and then I know you like to talk a lot about Bitcoin. 38:47.657 --> 38:49.335 So maybe that we can take it up later. 38:49.335 --> 38:51.166 Sure, whichever way you want. 38:51.166 --> 38:55.187 can very quickly give a brief on option selling and then we can move over to Bitcoin. 38:55.187 --> 38:56.748 I do option selling. 38:57.328 --> 39:02.650 Option selling is a way for me to generate income off of a sleeve of my portfolio. 39:02.891 --> 39:05.591 I never expose my entire portfolio. 39:05.591 --> 39:07.212 I've taken a small... 39:07.232 --> 39:11.334 So if you look at the equity, if you... 39:12.554 --> 39:15.195 For a moment, let's believe Bitcoin is equity. 39:15.716 --> 39:17.016 So my portfolio split will be 70-30. 39:17.016 --> 39:17.796 Right? 39:17.816 --> 39:27.871 sorry just to clarify one the 60 percent is totally in index funds there is there is no other type of equity there. 39:27.871 --> 39:38.184 fund, there are some oh RSUs from my past jobs, which I have to slowly divest as my incomes have slowly dropped significantly now. 39:38.184 --> 39:46.786 So I have to now uh start divesting from them and go back to index funds or Bitcoin as I deem fit. 39:48.627 --> 39:52.328 So in this 70%, there's part of Bitcoin, is index funds. 39:52.328 --> 39:56.619 And there is a small portion where I, on that I basically write 39:56.809 --> 40:04.351 options like covered calls or cash secure puts just to generate income that help me with my monthly expenses. 40:05.972 --> 40:08.074 Sorry, I'm very new to this term. 40:08.074 --> 40:12.681 So if you can explain that in maybe like like a five year old 40:12.738 --> 40:13.100 So. 40:13.100 --> 40:14.308 um 40:15.862 --> 40:17.452 Do know what option is? 40:17.634 --> 40:19.355 What option contracts are? 40:19.876 --> 40:22.638 So option contracts, essentially they're derivatives. 40:22.638 --> 40:30.085 Option contract is basically a right to buy or a right to sell. 40:30.085 --> 40:32.146 Right to buy is a call option. 40:32.146 --> 40:34.208 Right to sell is a put option. 40:35.329 --> 40:41.214 When I say I sell options, so if I'm selling a call, I'm selling a right to buy. 40:41.214 --> 40:43.616 So let's say Apple, Apple share, right? 40:44.140 --> 40:47.180 Each contract, at least in the US, is 100 shares. 40:47.180 --> 40:54.980 So let's say if I have 100 shares of Apple, I can sell one contract on that, one call option. 40:55.320 --> 40:58.540 And I don't know what the price is, but let's say price is 250. 40:58.960 --> 41:08.960 I can basically say 30 days from now, you can buy Apple shares from me at the price of 275. 41:09.134 --> 41:10.034 Mm. 41:10.718 --> 41:22.694 And for that right, you will pay me whatever one, $2 per share times 100 because 100 shares, I will get 100, $200 today, which is for me to keep. 41:23.315 --> 41:35.742 If at the end of this period, 30 days, if the price of Apple share is more than 275, I have to sell to you at 275 because we entered into this contract. 41:35.982 --> 41:40.056 For me, it's a binding, for you, it's an option because you bought it, I sold it. 41:40.056 --> 41:40.847 Okay. 41:41.172 --> 41:47.926 If the price is lower than 275, then if you were a buyer, you would say I would buy it from the market. 41:47.926 --> 41:50.572 Why would I buy it in 275? 41:50.778 --> 41:53.796 So my hope is the price won't go above 275. 41:53.796 --> 41:58.292 Your hope is price would go far above 275. 41:58.904 --> 42:01.906 So that's essentially the nutshell. 42:01.906 --> 42:03.467 Similarly, there's a put option. 42:03.467 --> 42:03.929 Go ahead. 42:03.929 --> 42:10.343 if it goes below 275 then I have to buy it from you right because we entered a contract or that's that. 42:10.864 --> 42:11.944 Okay. 42:12.885 --> 42:13.905 Okay. 42:14.246 --> 42:14.596 Okay. 42:14.596 --> 42:14.907 Okay. 42:14.907 --> 42:16.667 But you have to sell it. 42:18.609 --> 42:19.338 Okay. 42:19.338 --> 42:20.350 Makes sense. 42:20.479 --> 42:21.259 Right. 42:21.400 --> 42:25.505 But in order to do that, I get that uh premium. 42:25.505 --> 42:30.151 So in very simplest term, you know, you talked about LIC, right? 42:31.951 --> 42:33.392 What does LIC do? 42:33.392 --> 42:38.255 LIC says for 20 years every year you're going to pay me 50,000 rupees. 42:38.716 --> 42:43.719 If you die within 20 years, we're going to pay your family one crore. 42:44.400 --> 42:45.080 Right. 42:45.080 --> 42:49.623 If not, we'll pay you back something, but not everything that you paid. 42:49.623 --> 42:50.388 Mm. 42:51.381 --> 42:52.172 Right. 42:52.172 --> 42:53.352 Both of you. 42:53.352 --> 43:01.497 So in your mind, you are paying this premium, hoping that if something happens to you, your family will get paid. 43:02.458 --> 43:06.140 Insurance companies betting on you're not going to die in 20 years. 43:06.320 --> 43:08.021 They get to keep everything. 43:09.182 --> 43:11.523 Exact same play in simplest words. 43:11.717 --> 43:12.658 okay. 43:12.679 --> 43:14.425 Now it makes more sense. 43:14.425 --> 43:15.265 Yeah. 43:15.550 --> 43:20.795 as an option seller, my risk is defined. 43:20.974 --> 43:21.958 Mm. 43:22.870 --> 43:23.280 Right? 43:23.280 --> 43:29.020 In this case, my risk is defined in the sense I had Apple shares at 250. 43:29.244 --> 43:31.112 I have capped it at 275. 43:31.112 --> 43:34.226 I cannot make more money if the share goes above 275. 43:34.226 --> 43:35.106 Right? 43:36.207 --> 43:38.248 But I will still be in profit. 43:38.469 --> 43:43.261 I still be able to bridge this gap plus the premium that I collected. 43:44.875 --> 43:49.655 For an option buyer, their risk is defined too. 43:50.115 --> 43:51.455 They will lose the premium. 43:51.455 --> 43:54.115 So for example, the Apple share closed at 274. 43:54.115 --> 43:56.735 You will lose the $2 that you gave me per share. 43:56.887 --> 43:57.968 Great. 43:59.627 --> 44:00.568 Right? 44:00.568 --> 44:08.933 But if you study the options, if you study the skewness and whatnot, majority of the times, majority of the options expire worthless. 44:08.933 --> 44:11.948 So option sellers make money and option buyers lose money. 44:11.948 --> 44:13.831 Hmm, okay. 44:14.031 --> 44:16.113 So that's essentially the idea. 44:18.951 --> 44:25.865 So that's what I am learning and I'm trying my hands on just to generate some extra income. 44:26.476 --> 44:27.347 got it. 44:27.833 --> 44:29.641 Okay, so option selling is done. 44:29.641 --> 44:31.088 Now the Bitcoin part. 44:31.088 --> 44:34.342 coming to Bitcoin, I'm a firm believer in Bitcoin. 44:34.342 --> 44:36.275 Right. 44:36.275 --> 44:48.108 I'm a firm believer in Bitcoin because it solves the problems of money that humankind has been wanting to get solved, but have never solved. 44:48.194 --> 44:49.152 Hmm. 44:52.490 --> 44:54.410 What do I mean by that? 44:55.350 --> 45:03.090 For everything in the world except money, we have a standard defined unit of measurement. 45:03.670 --> 45:08.470 Temperature, have Celsius, you have Fahrenheit, but one Celsius is one Celsius. 45:08.750 --> 45:12.690 The hundred years ago, hundred years from now, today, is the same value. 45:13.550 --> 45:18.530 Height, length, weight, everything has a standard unit of measurement. 45:19.490 --> 45:22.057 But money is something that is not standard. 45:22.057 --> 45:30.337 Like why is that $1 today is not same as $1 tomorrow because its purchasing power has gone down. 45:32.041 --> 45:32.841 Right. 45:33.302 --> 45:41.908 And the prime reason that people people say all the bullshit about inflation, inflation is good. 45:41.908 --> 45:45.390 Kenjin economics and whatnot. 45:45.410 --> 45:47.091 Inflation is terrible. 45:48.332 --> 46:01.801 And real inflation is not the number that governments print or the government show the actual number of actual inflation is the amount of debasement. 46:01.801 --> 46:03.701 What does debasement mean? 46:04.781 --> 46:07.901 Every government in the world is printing money. 46:08.681 --> 46:12.241 If anybody has any doubts, go look at the money supply. 46:12.521 --> 46:18.761 Just to give you an idea, United States during the COVID time, we printed $5 trillion. 46:20.839 --> 46:21.589 Right? 46:21.850 --> 46:29.217 If you just look at the chart of money supply, just go search for US M2, India M2. 46:29.779 --> 46:31.460 They're like hockey stick charts. 46:31.460 --> 46:35.204 It looks like you're looking at Nvidia chart for last five years. 46:35.625 --> 46:38.327 It goes up like this straight line. 46:39.289 --> 46:40.069 Right? 46:42.130 --> 46:49.723 If you look at, and I know more about the US numbers, not so much about India numbers, but I'm pretty sure India numbers would be very similar, if not worse. 46:50.307 --> 46:51.096 Mm. 46:52.457 --> 46:59.009 In the US, for the last 50-60 years, the debasement rate is about 7%. 47:00.637 --> 47:04.783 plus the two or three percent CPI number they basically say. 47:05.410 --> 47:06.800 and that's every year. 47:07.177 --> 47:09.037 every year on an average. 47:09.377 --> 47:16.457 your inflation, actual inflation rate is about nine to 10 percent, not seven percent or not two percent that they talk about. 47:16.657 --> 47:22.894 And that's the reason you see everything is lot more expensive than it was five years ago. 47:22.894 --> 47:23.910 Hmm. 47:25.001 --> 47:33.501 There is a reason why homes in the US have doubled in the last five years in most of the country. 47:34.361 --> 47:36.995 But nobody talks about that. 47:36.995 --> 47:45.389 you say you say DBS mint is 7 % But what does that actually mean like when when you say 7 plus 2 what what what does that mean? 47:45.853 --> 47:47.854 Let's talk about this. 47:48.175 --> 47:58.255 Let's say oh you had $10, like 10 $1 notes, and the world has only one product to sell. 47:58.712 --> 47:59.570 Okay. 48:00.135 --> 48:04.286 Let's say that's an apple, not the apple phone, the apple, the one that you eat. 48:04.286 --> 48:07.485 eh So there 10 apples, $10. 48:07.627 --> 48:09.707 That's all that exists in the word. 48:10.048 --> 48:12.888 In this word, each dollar will cost $1. 48:12.888 --> 48:14.565 Each apple will cost $1. 48:14.565 --> 48:24.311 eh Now suddenly, number of apple is same, but somebody throws in $10 more in the mix. 48:24.311 --> 48:25.711 Now suddenly you say, know what? 48:25.711 --> 48:28.122 I can pay $2 for each apple, big deal. 48:28.546 --> 48:29.347 Right. 48:29.756 --> 48:31.406 Somebody throws in 10 more. 48:31.406 --> 48:32.317 Mm. 48:33.288 --> 48:34.628 suddenly goes three. 48:35.750 --> 48:54.791 So the basic law of economics, the law of supply and demand, if the supply of something increases and demand stays constant, the price of that thing decreases. 48:54.791 --> 49:00.314 So in this case, what is happening is the number of dollars in the market 49:01.074 --> 49:06.228 that are trying to chase the same amount of assets is fixed. 49:07.549 --> 49:07.840 Right? 49:07.840 --> 49:10.732 So assets are fixed, number of dollars is increasing. 49:10.732 --> 49:14.314 So purchasing power of each dollar is going down. 49:14.895 --> 49:23.462 But because we use dollar as a measuring stick or Indian rupee, if you're in India, you think everything else is going up. 49:24.303 --> 49:28.786 No, what is happening is purchasing power of your currency is going down. 49:29.747 --> 49:30.988 That's debasement. 49:31.502 --> 49:32.298 Okay. 49:32.722 --> 49:37.917 That's debasement, that's tax, invisible tax, that's theft. 49:38.618 --> 49:49.088 People don't realize your purchasing power is being eroded every year silently without you even knowing. 49:50.668 --> 49:53.664 and then how does bitcoin come into this. 49:54.994 --> 50:02.268 So the big difference with Bitcoin is Bitcoin brings to the world true scarcity. 50:02.449 --> 50:04.290 Why is something valuable? 50:05.371 --> 50:06.572 Because of scarcity. 50:06.572 --> 50:20.661 Like why is a villa on Juhu Beach is more expensive than a uh condo in a middle of a town in Baroda, for an example. 50:22.302 --> 50:23.923 The main reason is 50:24.135 --> 50:29.255 There is only so much land, which is sea facing, that you can build on. 50:29.255 --> 50:33.195 If there is a house that is built on, that will be more expensive. 50:33.315 --> 50:42.255 If there's apartment in the middle of a city or in the middle of nowhere, you can build many, many more. 50:42.375 --> 50:44.215 So scarcity goes down. 50:45.135 --> 50:51.375 And that is also the reason why gold is more valuable than silver, than iron, copper, whatnot. 50:51.375 --> 50:54.115 Because we believe gold is more scarce. 50:54.168 --> 50:55.010 Hmm. 50:55.010 --> 50:55.893 Okay. 50:56.507 --> 50:59.628 But none of these things have true scarcity. 51:00.189 --> 51:06.913 Nobody can tell you today how much gold there is in total on this planet. 51:07.093 --> 51:11.055 There are estimates, but nobody knows for a fact. 51:11.175 --> 51:15.878 But for Bitcoin, we can tell you, we can mathematically prove it. 51:15.878 --> 51:18.239 There would never be more than 21. 51:18.786 --> 51:19.572 Hmm. 51:20.071 --> 51:23.811 and 20 million out of those are already in circulation. 51:24.811 --> 51:30.431 So only less than 5 % are left to be mined, but everything else is in circulation. 51:30.551 --> 51:34.871 So first time humans have seen true scarcity. 51:35.571 --> 51:37.791 True scarcity backed by math. 51:38.411 --> 51:39.931 Math doesn't lie. 51:40.031 --> 51:45.911 It's not your president said so, your politician said so, it's math, right? 51:45.911 --> 51:47.631 And it's backed by energy. 51:47.950 --> 51:48.986 Mmm. 51:49.146 --> 52:00.613 because it requires a tremendous amount of compute to mine a Bitcoin, just like it takes a tremendous amount of energy to mine gold from us. 52:01.073 --> 52:02.744 It's very similar concept. 52:02.832 --> 52:03.692 Right. 52:04.827 --> 52:06.810 So that's one dimension. 52:06.810 --> 52:14.782 The second dimension is Bitcoin solves all the problems that gold could not solve. 52:15.505 --> 52:16.856 What do I mean by that? 52:16.856 --> 52:17.630 Hmm. 52:19.470 --> 52:21.633 in the last century. 52:24.054 --> 52:27.236 Because of communication, the trade evolved. 52:27.296 --> 52:30.918 Trade started to happen at the speed of light. 52:32.019 --> 52:32.620 Right? 52:32.620 --> 52:42.245 You could enter into, for example, you and I, we are sitting thousands of miles apart, but we are having this conversation in real time. 52:43.366 --> 52:44.927 Thanks to technology. 52:45.048 --> 52:49.510 You and I can agree in a contract to buy or sell something as well. 52:49.510 --> 52:50.610 Mm. 52:51.344 --> 52:55.146 but I cannot send you gold at speed of light. 52:55.543 --> 52:56.348 Right. 52:56.932 --> 53:10.273 Because of that gap, the whole idea of this electronic ledgers, these trusted third parties, the rise of visas, mastercards and Amex happened and the swift network and 53:10.273 --> 53:12.856 whatnot, right? 53:12.876 --> 53:13.752 Okay. 53:14.736 --> 53:17.408 So Bitcoin solves that problem. 53:17.656 --> 53:18.449 Mmm. 53:19.162 --> 53:20.922 You don't need anybody else. 53:21.103 --> 53:24.004 It runs on a network just like a protocol. 53:24.904 --> 53:28.725 I believe you are in software domain, so you probably understand TCP IP. 53:29.706 --> 53:31.566 So TCP IP is a protocol. 53:32.927 --> 53:34.728 You can build anything on top. 53:35.668 --> 53:39.309 If TCP IP wasn't there, we wouldn't be talking right now. 53:40.670 --> 53:44.831 Similarly, you can build so many things on Bitcoin protocol, Bitcoin network. 53:45.492 --> 53:48.622 The Bitcoin, the actual currency thing. 53:48.622 --> 53:49.530 Hmm. 53:49.530 --> 53:52.874 one use case that it can settle it can. 53:52.874 --> 53:59.521 So the basic thing it solved is it solved the problem of moving value electronically. 54:00.663 --> 54:08.518 Okay, so if we were able to sell gold at the speed of Bitcoin, maybe that we would have solved this problem a while ago. 54:09.281 --> 54:10.065 Okay. 54:10.065 --> 54:12.145 Gold was money for 5,000 years. 54:12.145 --> 54:14.245 I don't know how much you know the history. 54:15.385 --> 54:22.225 Like up until 1930s, I'll tell you a little bit of US history for anybody who's entrusted. 54:23.799 --> 54:27.391 Up until 1900s, gold was money. 54:27.391 --> 54:32.674 Even in early 1900s, dollar was backed by gold. 54:33.915 --> 54:35.715 Then few things happened. 54:36.076 --> 54:40.308 In 1933, FDR, Franklin D. 54:40.308 --> 54:53.015 Roosevelt, who was the president of United States, he signed Article 6102, which basically made any American holding more than $100 worth of gold at that time. 54:53.847 --> 54:54.721 Illegal. 54:54.721 --> 54:55.665 Illegal. 54:55.665 --> 54:59.980 They basically said you have to come and surrender your gold and convert it to cash. 55:01.605 --> 55:02.585 Right. 55:03.005 --> 55:06.305 And once you did that, they immediately revalued gold. 55:06.305 --> 55:10.805 Gold was something at, I think, 18, 19 dollars. 55:10.805 --> 55:14.345 They revalued it to like 40 dollars, something like that, or 33 dollars, something like that. 55:14.345 --> 55:16.565 I don't remember the exact numbers, but they can read. 55:16.565 --> 55:19.525 Search for article 6102, you'll find the whole thing. 55:20.125 --> 55:21.925 Then in 1971, 55:22.168 --> 55:22.924 Hmm. 55:23.908 --> 55:29.808 President Nixon basically came on TV August 15, 1971. 55:29.808 --> 55:32.988 I remember this date because of India's Independence Day. 55:33.908 --> 55:41.048 He came and basically said, from now on, dollar is not backed by gold. 55:41.908 --> 55:46.168 Think of it like, you you probably were in India when demonetization happened. 55:47.008 --> 55:51.908 Like Modi came on the TV and said, from tonight, these notes are no longer valid. 55:51.991 --> 55:52.798 Ready. 55:55.278 --> 56:01.131 How can one person, one party, one government completely devalue you overnight? 56:01.275 --> 56:02.315 Mm. 56:03.052 --> 56:10.039 And since that day, between this, somewhere, every currency was kind of pegged to US dollar. 56:10.199 --> 56:15.238 Because US dollar moved gold out, every currency is now complete fiat. 56:15.238 --> 56:18.007 It's basically, trust you, I owe you. 56:18.628 --> 56:19.829 There is no value. 56:19.829 --> 56:21.101 There's nothing backing it. 56:21.101 --> 56:22.972 It's just your trust in the government. 56:25.668 --> 56:26.572 So Bitcoin solves that. 56:26.572 --> 56:30.184 Bitcoin basically says, don't trust verify. 56:32.086 --> 56:34.883 I can talk about this for hours and I know we will run out of time. 56:34.883 --> 56:37.618 So I'll let you ask any questions you have. 56:38.407 --> 56:51.773 So, um I think I want to get into a little bit about family and how did they think about fire because I know initially you said that one of the most important thing is to have 56:51.773 --> 56:54.794 your partner be aligned with your goals, right? 56:54.794 --> 57:04.606 So, how did that conversation take place with your kids, your wife, I don't know, your parents and the people around you? 57:05.400 --> 57:14.966 I think the most important person here is your life partner because you guys are, you know, joined together in this journey. 57:15.087 --> 57:17.508 So I don't think it's my goals, their goals. 57:17.508 --> 57:18.809 It's our goals. 57:19.550 --> 57:19.840 Right. 57:19.840 --> 57:23.032 So it was never, Hey, I want to do this. 57:23.092 --> 57:26.037 It was more about, what kind of life do we want? 57:26.037 --> 57:27.475 So for example, right. 57:27.896 --> 57:34.936 If one partner say I'm happy living in solitude, I want to go up in the mountains completely remote. 57:34.936 --> 57:36.997 buy a piece of land, build a house. 57:36.997 --> 57:39.039 Nobody sees me. 57:39.039 --> 57:43.882 But the other partner says, no, I want to live in the biggest city, most happening place. 57:43.942 --> 57:47.064 If you guys are not aligned, forget fire. 57:47.425 --> 57:48.155 Not gonna happen. 57:48.155 --> 57:50.327 Right? 57:50.327 --> 57:53.688 You both have to agree to a similar life. 57:54.329 --> 57:57.992 So my wife and I, we have been talking for years and we still talk. 57:57.992 --> 58:00.773 We still talk for hours every day. 58:01.274 --> 58:02.435 What have we learned? 58:02.435 --> 58:04.596 How does it impact our plans? 58:05.697 --> 58:06.647 What do you want to do? 58:06.647 --> 58:08.137 Oh, I tried this. 58:08.137 --> 58:09.648 I don't like this part. 58:09.648 --> 58:10.498 What do you think? 58:10.498 --> 58:11.909 Should we change it? 58:11.909 --> 58:16.590 We talk about all this every day, every day. 58:17.951 --> 58:30.484 The only thing is in my mind, at least both of us agree on this part that we think of our plan as not written in stone is just a guiding post. 58:32.124 --> 58:34.355 Directionally we are going there. 58:35.017 --> 58:39.861 We'll keep course correcting as we learn more because at the end of the day, it's a life. 58:39.861 --> 58:41.112 Life is full of unknowns. 58:41.112 --> 58:43.364 Right? 58:43.364 --> 58:45.814 So that's about the partner. 58:45.814 --> 58:47.237 I don't think it matters to the kids. 58:47.237 --> 58:52.281 In our case, uh kids really don't care. 58:52.281 --> 58:54.023 Right? 58:54.023 --> 58:57.355 Now, you know, like my daughter is 20 years old. 58:57.756 --> 58:59.054 My son is 17. 58:59.054 --> 59:00.588 ah 59:00.588 --> 59:05.552 Like my daughter, she's already at a stage where she's thinking about what her life is gonna be. 59:05.552 --> 59:09.765 Like she's gonna graduate, what she's gonna do after that and whatnot. 59:09.765 --> 59:12.907 And my son is thinking about where does he want to go for college and whatnot. 59:12.907 --> 59:16.680 So for them, like what we do with our life is irrelevant. 59:16.835 --> 59:17.667 Right. 59:18.178 --> 59:23.618 So it was between two of us agreeing on something, yeah, this is what we want and that's where we landed. 59:24.018 --> 59:32.638 And in that sense, my wife started building the business a few months before that. 59:32.638 --> 59:34.618 She started last year, April. 59:35.598 --> 59:44.318 So I saw what she was doing and I kind of saw that how this is lining up with what we really wanna do. 59:44.918 --> 59:46.337 And as I said, I don't wanna like... 59:46.337 --> 59:52.934 None of us want to sit home all day binge-watched because if that happens, we'll probably go mad or die very soon. 59:54.076 --> 01:00:04.137 So we started with that and that's when we started building this whole, the consulting, Plan B, uh so location freedom, global sovereignty kind of stuff. 01:00:05.238 --> 01:00:06.078 sense. 01:00:06.420 --> 01:00:15.329 Okay so for somebody hearing this right uh what should people build before they quit financially mentally and strategically. 01:00:16.574 --> 01:00:20.436 know what you want to do after first beforehand, right? 01:00:20.436 --> 01:00:22.676 Don't say I'll figure it out. 01:00:23.757 --> 01:00:34.422 In my experience, the people I have seen, again, I have not met many, I'll be honest, I've not met many people who have taken early retirements, but people who said I'm gonna retire 01:00:34.422 --> 01:00:37.062 and we're not gonna do anything, then I'll figure it out. 01:00:37.394 --> 01:00:39.123 You're not gonna figure it out. 01:00:39.564 --> 01:00:45.276 And six months, 12 months, maybe 18 months, you'll be back, at least looking for work. 01:00:46.454 --> 01:00:52.588 The second thing is make sure that you and your partner are aligned. 01:00:53.111 --> 01:00:54.824 Don't surprise them. 01:00:56.546 --> 01:01:11.457 eh Talk, hear them, address their concerns, share your concerns, share how you are feeling, why you're feeling that way, and kind of make that conversation healthy. 01:01:12.158 --> 01:01:20.704 The last but not the least, and if it eventually comes, is look back at your numbers based on the goals that you set up for yourself. 01:01:20.745 --> 01:01:22.626 Do the numbers make sense? 01:01:24.770 --> 01:01:27.770 eh That's how I would position it. 01:01:28.622 --> 01:01:29.728 Sounds good. 01:01:29.772 --> 01:01:38.528 So just one last thing, was just listening to your podcast with your daughter and then, uh you know, there were a lot of talks about AI and the stock market. 01:01:38.528 --> 01:01:43.001 And I know there were a few things that you had combined, but just one question out of it, right? 01:01:43.001 --> 01:01:49.055 Like the stock market exists partially because humans are inefficient at allocating capital, right? 01:01:49.055 --> 01:01:59.241 So if AI becomes dramatically better at, you know, forecasting and decision making and doing things on its own, could the stock market, as we know, become less relevant? 01:01:59.799 --> 01:02:00.883 in the future. 01:02:03.030 --> 01:02:04.252 I don't think so. 01:02:04.334 --> 01:02:13.534 Yeah, because I'm asking this because if somebody's planning for the future, right, like, I'm sure equity is a large chunk of their portfolio, right? 01:02:13.534 --> 01:02:23.617 And if somebody somebody would come and tell me, oh, you know, here in 25, 30 years, you will not even have a stock market, then how would I think about retirement? 01:02:23.617 --> 01:02:29.680 So let me say a simple saying that somebody said to me and that kind of blew my mind. 01:02:30.240 --> 01:02:37.023 And the saying goes, if you buy a stock and the company goes to zero, that's your problem. 01:02:37.664 --> 01:02:41.435 But if S &P 500 goes to zero, that's America's problem. 01:02:42.113 --> 01:02:42.909 Right. 01:02:43.105 --> 01:02:43.627 Right. 01:02:43.627 --> 01:02:44.428 So U.S. 01:02:44.428 --> 01:02:48.119 government is so highly financialized. 01:02:48.119 --> 01:02:48.946 Mm. 01:02:51.009 --> 01:02:55.269 There is no way S &P 500 would go to zero. 01:02:55.949 --> 01:03:02.509 Now, somebody might ask, oh, would all the companies inside the S &P 500 succeed? 01:03:02.509 --> 01:03:04.089 Hell no. 01:03:04.349 --> 01:03:06.249 AI would displace many. 01:03:06.969 --> 01:03:09.289 I have no doubts about that. 01:03:10.089 --> 01:03:15.769 But the way S &P 500 is constructed, some companies will go out, the others will come in. 01:03:15.769 --> 01:03:17.429 It happens every quarter. 01:03:17.849 --> 01:03:20.269 S &P 500 rebalances every quarter. 01:03:20.299 --> 01:03:23.930 They take out the worst performers, they bring in the new contenders. 01:03:25.831 --> 01:03:33.194 So I don't see SMB 500 going to zero, but would AI displace many companies? 01:03:33.194 --> 01:03:34.174 Yes. 01:03:34.735 --> 01:03:37.906 But I would challenge one thing that you said. 01:03:38.094 --> 01:03:39.330 Hmm. 01:03:39.648 --> 01:03:44.828 which was about stock market exists because humans are inefficient capital allocators. 01:03:44.828 --> 01:03:46.528 I don't agree with that. 01:03:46.528 --> 01:03:49.268 Humans are inefficient capital allocators. 01:03:49.408 --> 01:03:51.468 I agree with that. 01:03:51.648 --> 01:03:54.868 But that's more relevant in a business term. 01:03:54.868 --> 01:04:03.768 When you as a business owner, you have limited capital and you have to decide I want to do this project or that project or that project and I can only only fund one. 01:04:04.448 --> 01:04:09.482 And you take a lot of time to think about it and you waste lot of money while thinking about this. 01:04:09.482 --> 01:04:11.133 that's where I will help. 01:04:11.855 --> 01:04:16.199 Stock markets don't exist because of inefficient capital allocations. 01:04:16.381 --> 01:04:23.038 Rather, lot of jobs exist because of inefficiencies in the process. 01:04:23.276 --> 01:04:25.308 Yeah, I heard that statement as well. 01:04:25.550 --> 01:04:27.486 In that podcast, I think there was a lot of 01:04:27.486 --> 01:04:34.932 yeah, I'm profound believer in that because I look at my career for 20 plus years. 01:04:35.933 --> 01:04:43.069 Majority of the times we were building stuff because two things didn't talk to each other. 01:04:43.069 --> 01:04:45.311 Right? 01:04:45.311 --> 01:04:47.513 Anybody who is in software would understand that. 01:04:47.513 --> 01:04:53.358 How many times you're writing integrations from this software to that software, transforming data from this format to that format. 01:04:53.516 --> 01:04:54.388 Right. 01:04:55.981 --> 01:04:56.882 Yeah. 01:04:57.266 --> 01:04:57.804 Yeah. 01:04:57.804 --> 01:04:58.365 Right? 01:04:58.365 --> 01:05:01.987 Within the organization, two systems don't talk to each other. 01:05:01.987 --> 01:05:02.819 Hmm. 01:05:04.558 --> 01:05:05.444 Yeah. 01:05:06.028 --> 01:05:08.269 I think lot of those jobs will go away. 01:05:08.536 --> 01:05:09.332 Mm. 01:05:12.139 --> 01:05:21.544 A lot of what we are seeing for last three months actually started on February 5th when Anthropic announced go work. 01:05:22.645 --> 01:05:26.597 Since then, the software stocks have been hammered. 01:05:26.733 --> 01:05:27.484 Yeah. 01:05:28.455 --> 01:05:29.816 Rightfully so. 01:05:30.158 --> 01:05:31.060 Rightfully so. 01:05:31.060 --> 01:05:37.743 eh Again, not a financial advice, but the way I see the world is 01:05:39.749 --> 01:05:52.705 In future, in the world of AI, when the companies will be much, much, leaner, all these companies that have built businesses on a subscription per seat license model, their 01:05:52.705 --> 01:05:54.225 revenues will decline. 01:05:54.986 --> 01:05:58.398 Or even if not decline, they will not grow. 01:05:58.398 --> 01:06:05.951 And don't forget, stock market rewards you for growth, not for anything else. 01:06:06.126 --> 01:06:06.987 right. 01:06:08.128 --> 01:06:13.435 If you are not growing, then nobody rewards you. 01:06:15.147 --> 01:06:20.359 Yeah, think it was great talking to you Jaya. 01:06:20.359 --> 01:06:21.930 think it's a wonderful episode. 01:06:21.930 --> 01:06:23.390 Thank you so much for this one. 01:06:23.390 --> 01:06:26.272 uh I think there were some great insights. 01:06:26.272 --> 01:06:29.873 uh I can't wait for people to hear this piece. 01:06:29.873 --> 01:06:31.274 So thank you so much. 01:06:31.557 --> 01:06:32.261 Thank you, Mihir. 01:06:32.261 --> 01:06:33.850 Thank you for having me.