WEBVTT 00:00:01.790 --> 00:00:05.412 Hi everyone um our guest for today is Jayant Kumar. 00:00:05.412 --> 00:00:12.375 He's an ex Indian Express CTO ex SVP at DBS Bank and now a mutual fund specialist. 00:00:12.375 --> 00:00:14.756 So thank you so much for joining us today Jayant. 00:00:14.756 --> 00:00:19.868 um To start off with can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background? 00:00:21.026 --> 00:00:21.676 Thanks, Mihir. 00:00:21.676 --> 00:00:24.908 Thanks for having this podcast with me. 00:00:24.908 --> 00:00:31.526 ah yeah, so about my background, ah so I actually graduated in 2001. 00:00:31.526 --> 00:00:36.914 ah And then I started working as a software engineer. 00:00:36.914 --> 00:00:43.258 ah I skipped a lot of companies, right? 00:00:43.258 --> 00:00:49.046 I worked with a lot of different organizations throughout my career uh life. 00:00:49.046 --> 00:00:51.302 ah 00:00:52.145 --> 00:01:08.165 I think the leadership ones that you called out is one is DBS Bank where I was heading both India and Singapore teams out of Hyderabad and then I was uh CTO at Indian Express 00:01:08.165 --> 00:01:12.017 and I had quite a long tenure working with Nocky.com. 00:01:13.598 --> 00:01:15.359 I think those are the key ones. 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:19.402 The last position that I held was as Director of Engineering in Turbo. 00:01:21.381 --> 00:01:25.321 Yeah, I think that's the pretty much career path that I took. 00:01:26.907 --> 00:01:33.352 Can you tell us something about what kind of work were you doing before pursuing financial independence? 00:01:34.192 --> 00:01:39.672 So I started off as a software engineer, then I moved into technical architecture. 00:01:40.192 --> 00:01:47.412 So I was the key architect for building Nokia.com. 00:01:47.872 --> 00:01:58.092 Nokia.com has a product called ResDeck, which is used by almost every organization in India. 00:01:58.592 --> 00:02:01.792 And I think it still accounts for more than 60 % of their revenue. 00:02:01.792 --> 00:02:03.992 So that's the product that I built. 00:02:06.520 --> 00:02:10.260 I was the key part in designing and building that product. 00:02:11.420 --> 00:02:15.340 This was long way back, I think in 2004 or something like that. 00:02:15.720 --> 00:02:21.320 And once I did that, then I moved completely into architecture. 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:29.920 And I designed the microservices architecture for Nokia.com that is during my second stint. 00:02:29.920 --> 00:02:32.793 I also worked with Shine.com. 00:02:32.793 --> 00:02:35.594 in the middle where I designed their architecture. 00:02:35.794 --> 00:02:46.856 So a lot of things around architecture and then I think in Nokia.com itself I moved to leadership position in my last, I think last one year or two year. 00:02:47.017 --> 00:02:56.799 And then I moved on to CTO as Indian Express where I was working with the technical team and the CEOs to define their technical strategy. 00:02:56.799 --> 00:03:01.870 uh Then leadership positions are 00:03:02.101 --> 00:03:10.984 I felt to me, I felt that leadership positions are more about managing people and technology together. 00:03:11.485 --> 00:03:20.288 And that's where I felt that it's not my cup of tea because I was an architect and I would always be an architect at heart. 00:03:20.648 --> 00:03:25.930 And managing people is something that I do pretty well. 00:03:26.510 --> 00:03:31.152 And I was surprised when the feedback that I got from people is that you are a good manager. 00:03:31.637 --> 00:03:33.898 because I didn't believe that. 00:03:34.378 --> 00:03:40.561 And it also comes from the fact that, you know, being an architect, I like to stick to the basics, right? 00:03:40.561 --> 00:03:48.263 And when you talk about managers, they are mostly politicians to some extent. 00:03:48.384 --> 00:03:49.781 So, believe me. 00:03:49.781 --> 00:03:56.038 every manager says they are not a good manager but I think that's what uh good managers are. 00:03:56.753 --> 00:03:58.153 Yeah, maybe. 00:03:58.413 --> 00:04:01.813 But I have had managers both good and bad. 00:04:02.073 --> 00:04:07.113 And I can pretty well figure out if he is a good manager or not. 00:04:07.153 --> 00:04:08.493 So actually comes. 00:04:08.853 --> 00:04:22.313 when you leave an organization and you are still associated with the people of that organization, you are still associated with your manager and your juniors, that means you 00:04:22.313 --> 00:04:23.713 have been a good manager. 00:04:24.033 --> 00:04:26.553 Because you build those connections. 00:04:26.682 --> 00:04:33.707 I am still connected to people in Opry, I am still connected to people in DBS, I am still connected to people in Turbo. 00:04:34.167 --> 00:04:47.286 So that's what I call, mean that actually very clearly says that I have done something good in my life to deserve those people to still trust me and talk to me. 00:04:47.286 --> 00:04:48.699 Yeah, makes sense. 00:04:49.714 --> 00:04:55.134 And my last position was, sorry, just finishing off the final. 00:04:55.554 --> 00:05:03.394 Yeah, so my last position was as a director of engineering, SRE engineering in turbo. 00:05:04.094 --> 00:05:10.114 That was, mean, when I joined that company, I already knew, I joined that company at a pretty high salary. 00:05:10.234 --> 00:05:13.394 And I already knew that I would not last over here for more than a year. 00:05:13.394 --> 00:05:19.077 And that was my target, that at least if I finish off one year over here, then because I had already 00:05:19.077 --> 00:05:27.380 made my money and I was like this is my exit strategy and I wanted them to kick me off and give me a good severance. 00:05:27.921 --> 00:05:35.724 Surprisingly I lasted two years not one and they eventually did kick me off so yeah and gave me a good severance. 00:05:37.332 --> 00:05:38.163 Nice. 00:05:38.706 --> 00:05:39.126 Okay. 00:05:39.126 --> 00:05:45.851 uh When did you first hear about fire and you know what attracted you to the to that concept? 00:05:46.865 --> 00:05:53.585 The first time I heard about fire was I think after Covid. 00:05:54.625 --> 00:05:57.185 So basically I was planning my exit strategy. 00:05:57.365 --> 00:06:06.725 My exit strategy was when I moved to Hyderabad in 2018 or 19 when I moved to Hyderabad. 00:06:06.785 --> 00:06:09.165 That was when I was planning my exit strategy. 00:06:09.165 --> 00:06:11.365 My exit strategy was that I will stay in JP Morgan. 00:06:11.365 --> 00:06:15.085 I will stay there for it was a 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:20.021 It was one company where you could just slog throughout your life. 00:06:20.021 --> 00:06:21.602 And I've seen people doing that. 00:06:21.602 --> 00:06:25.643 So my strategy was that I will slog there for 10 years and then I will retire. 00:06:26.043 --> 00:06:29.744 But then I joined there and then COVID happened. 00:06:29.764 --> 00:06:37.466 And that is when I realized that I would not last in this career long. 00:06:37.826 --> 00:06:41.427 So that's when I started ah figuring out what to do. 00:06:41.427 --> 00:06:44.748 And then that's when I came across the fire term. 00:06:45.309 --> 00:06:50.292 and started not planning, but yeah, started thinking in that direction. 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:52.732 Got it. 00:06:52.732 --> 00:07:03.910 So when like when did you start thinking seriously about financial independence and like what what did your finances look at at that time look like at that time? 00:07:04.744 --> 00:07:06.905 So I started thinking seriously. 00:07:06.905 --> 00:07:18.308 uh So this goes back to uh a stage in my life uh where I was let go off for the first time in my career. 00:07:18.848 --> 00:07:22.449 This was I think in 2011, I think. 00:07:22.489 --> 00:07:31.012 So 2011 I was working with a startup called InstaMedia and they were short of funds and I was high paying resource for them. 00:07:31.012 --> 00:07:33.152 So I was the first one to be let go off. 00:07:33.553 --> 00:07:39.413 And at that time I had a home, I had kids, had school, I had everything. 00:07:39.513 --> 00:07:44.693 And I was, I was frustrated because I didn't know what to do. 00:07:44.833 --> 00:07:45.193 Right? 00:07:45.193 --> 00:07:46.693 I was lucky. 00:07:46.893 --> 00:07:54.253 You know, I got a job within a week, but that one week of time was enough for me to think that I need to figure out something. 00:07:54.893 --> 00:08:01.653 So after that, when I was, I think 2012 is when I actually started 00:08:01.733 --> 00:08:06.177 discussing this with lot of friends that you what is your retirement strategy? 00:08:06.177 --> 00:08:07.057 What do you need? 00:08:07.057 --> 00:08:08.918 How much do you need to retire? 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:13.603 So that was the initial thought, initial trigger. 00:08:13.603 --> 00:08:21.108 And uh I think 2014, I actually started investing heavily for retirement. 00:08:21.129 --> 00:08:25.452 That was when I actually created my strategy that I will invest, invest, invest. 00:08:25.753 --> 00:08:30.146 And I also got in touch with a mutual fund distributor. 00:08:30.416 --> 00:08:39.316 not a much different distributor, but mostly a financial planner who actually made a fool out of me to be very kind. 00:08:39.496 --> 00:08:46.676 But yeah, that was when 2014 was actual time when I actually started thinking and planning. 00:08:47.980 --> 00:08:48.320 Got it. 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:55.654 So can you talk a little bit more about what that financial advisor because I want to you know, educate people on that as well. 00:08:55.654 --> 00:08:59.296 I know you are yourself a mutual fund advisor right now. 00:08:59.296 --> 00:09:02.728 So if you can, know, maybe spend a couple of minutes on that. 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:03.981 Yeah, definitely. 00:09:03.981 --> 00:09:14.606 So basically, uh there are different types of and it's very rampant in this industry, in financial industry, you will see people selling you things left, right and center. 00:09:14.946 --> 00:09:16.637 There are people who would sell you insurance. 00:09:16.637 --> 00:09:21.410 There are people who would sell you uh mutual funds. 00:09:21.410 --> 00:09:23.550 There's difference between selling and investing. 00:09:24.031 --> 00:09:27.853 And selling is when you are doing something for your commission. 00:09:28.113 --> 00:09:32.395 Investing is when you're doing something for the benefit of the person you're doing for. 00:09:33.237 --> 00:09:38.259 Right, so I already had term insurance at that point of time. 00:09:38.739 --> 00:09:46.022 And what happened was that that financial planner, she showed me another term insurance. 00:09:46.022 --> 00:09:51.084 ah Maybe she was right, maybe she was wrong. 00:09:51.104 --> 00:09:57.506 But what I didn't like was that I was not informed that, what is my, what would be my cover? 00:09:57.847 --> 00:09:59.717 Right, and how much did I need? 00:09:59.868 --> 00:10:01.008 So then 00:10:01.008 --> 00:10:09.128 I started planning for financial independence in 2021 after COVID. 00:10:09.528 --> 00:10:13.320 That is when I realized that it was a miss sell. 00:10:16.178 --> 00:10:25.321 Because I already had, so if you look at it from the point of view of term insurance, why do you need that money? 00:10:25.582 --> 00:10:29.103 You need that money to cover in case you are not there. 00:10:30.584 --> 00:10:37.066 But if you have already reached that stage where you have that corpus, you don't need term insurance. 00:10:38.632 --> 00:10:41.523 Maybe she should have told you that upfront. 00:10:41.762 --> 00:10:42.563 yes. 00:10:42.563 --> 00:10:44.923 So that was a uh mistake. 00:10:44.923 --> 00:10:48.824 And then uh I didn't know about commissions. 00:10:48.824 --> 00:10:52.785 I think during those days, uh there was nothing called tail trail commission. 00:10:52.785 --> 00:10:53.875 There was only one commission. 00:10:53.875 --> 00:11:01.527 So once you get an investment, you get one time commission and then you're done. 00:11:01.527 --> 00:11:10.489 And that's where things got messy because she got me invested in a few funds. 00:11:10.577 --> 00:11:13.897 And to be very frank, there was no plan. 00:11:14.737 --> 00:11:16.977 It was like random investments. 00:11:16.977 --> 00:11:18.257 Sir, take this, sir, take this. 00:11:18.257 --> 00:11:28.377 And then when I saw my CAS statements and I figured out how much commission I'm paying and the funds are just like that. 00:11:28.377 --> 00:11:40.753 mean, she called me invest in four or five funds and I was not, I didn't even know why those funds were there because the way I do it is I do a complete goal-based planning. 00:11:40.753 --> 00:11:46.913 I have figured out that this is your goal, this is what you should invest in. 00:11:46.913 --> 00:11:52.013 So the purpose of investment is, number one priority is safety of your capital. 00:11:52.493 --> 00:11:54.153 Then comes growth. 00:11:54.653 --> 00:11:56.893 If you're not safe, you'll never grow. 00:11:57.593 --> 00:12:08.732 So that's, think, the second thing that I didn't like was random investments, investing in 20, 25, 30 funds, and which I eventually I... 00:12:08.732 --> 00:12:22.069 When I talked to the second financial advisor after COVID, that is when I actually figured out what curry I had created, what raita I had created, and how do I have to manage it 00:12:22.069 --> 00:12:22.839 now. 00:12:24.716 --> 00:12:25.929 Make sense. 00:12:25.929 --> 00:12:26.239 Okay. 00:12:26.239 --> 00:12:27.732 So coming back to your journey. 00:12:27.732 --> 00:12:33.182 What are some of the biggest decisions that helped you move towards that financial independent school, right? 00:12:33.182 --> 00:12:37.620 Like was there any one turning point that accelerated the progress? 00:12:41.361 --> 00:12:47.254 I think my salary helped me quite a lot and my investment ratio was also pretty high. 00:12:47.254 --> 00:12:49.275 Saving ratio was also pretty high. 00:12:49.715 --> 00:12:56.118 I think at one time I was doing approximately 60-70 % of my salary was going into mutual funds. 00:12:56.179 --> 00:12:57.819 So that helped me a lot. 00:12:58.731 --> 00:13:01.832 Yeah, I think that is a key turning point. 00:13:01.832 --> 00:13:10.786 I think I don't think there is any key turning point, but yeah, once I made up my mind that I had to get out of it, that is I think. 00:13:10.918 --> 00:13:12.259 where we can look. 00:13:12.898 --> 00:13:19.532 I think for most people like the mental turnaround is their biggest, you know, acceleration, right? 00:13:19.532 --> 00:13:27.026 Like the day you figure out, okay, I want to move towards this is when you have to start planning and backtracking and things like that. 00:13:27.026 --> 00:13:33.150 And I think that time, you know that, okay, I already have this much corpus and I need to get here. 00:13:33.150 --> 00:13:39.603 then you have a path forward, which you can see yourself becoming independent in, you know, these many years, right? 00:13:39.603 --> 00:13:41.434 So I think that is. 00:13:41.615 --> 00:13:43.882 lot of people's turning points. 00:13:43.882 --> 00:13:45.586 I think same thing for you. 00:13:45.718 --> 00:13:51.118 think to be very frank, I lost quite a few years just thinking about it. 00:13:51.118 --> 00:13:59.598 Because 2012 is when I started, you know, initiated this, but I thought stuck my mind, but I started investing not up to 2015. 00:13:59.857 --> 00:14:04.278 So there was almost three years that I lost just thinking, I will start, I'll start. 00:14:04.338 --> 00:14:10.838 And then, you know, things keep happening and you just keep on delaying that thing to the next day, next day, next day. 00:14:10.838 --> 00:14:11.680 The next day doesn't happen. 00:14:11.680 --> 00:14:12.470 Right. 00:14:13.591 --> 00:14:14.711 Yeah, make sense. 00:14:14.711 --> 00:14:18.852 uh Was there any specific fire number target? 00:14:18.852 --> 00:14:32.163 um I know like in in this community or, know, with the people that I'm talking to, there are, you know, number ranging from, let's say, to two crore to anywhere like, you know, 00:14:32.163 --> 00:14:33.666 40, 50 crores. 00:14:33.666 --> 00:14:33.936 Right. 00:14:33.936 --> 00:14:40.748 So according to you uh and you know, you've been uh financially independent for some time. 00:14:40.748 --> 00:14:41.246 So 00:14:41.246 --> 00:14:50.793 Is there any number that you had specific initially when you started and then when you when you became financially independent, did you figure out that you know, maybe that 00:14:50.793 --> 00:14:52.914 number was something completely different. 00:14:53.686 --> 00:15:02.498 So the number again, uh there is no particular number because it's personal finance. 00:15:02.498 --> 00:15:07.289 The reason it is personal is because it is very personal to the person who is figuring it out. 00:15:07.349 --> 00:15:18.432 So uh two people living in the same community, working in the same corporate office at the same level would have two different fire numbers because their expenses would be 00:15:18.432 --> 00:15:19.892 different. 00:15:19.892 --> 00:15:23.663 So the fire number is basically dependent upon your expenses. 00:15:24.247 --> 00:15:29.829 uh I initially started off with 25x, which means 25 times my expenses. 00:15:31.250 --> 00:15:36.892 when I uh created my plan, it came down to 35x. 00:15:36.892 --> 00:15:44.595 And I added buffers on top of it because I wanted that buffer to be uh there. 00:15:44.595 --> 00:15:52.188 I mean, to be very frank, uh having a number in your mind is not the right strategy. 00:15:52.618 --> 00:15:54.929 because that inflation would change that. 00:15:56.010 --> 00:15:56.810 Hmm. 00:15:57.613 --> 00:15:57.974 Right. 00:15:57.974 --> 00:16:02.266 So can you explain a little bit about this 35x that you're talking about? 00:16:02.266 --> 00:16:04.067 yeah, I will definitely explain that. 00:16:04.067 --> 00:16:07.348 So basically, how is a number derived? 00:16:07.348 --> 00:16:20.765 The number is derived and this is, there are two, there is something called as your corpus and there is something called as how you allocate your assets so that your, know, fire 00:16:20.765 --> 00:16:26.118 journey, your retirement, early retirement journey is very stable. 00:16:26.422 --> 00:16:34.582 So, we will talk first about the number, when I say 35x, 35x, x is your basically expenses. 00:16:34.862 --> 00:16:45.462 It does not, the number does not depend upon your income, it does not depend upon your savings, it depends upon your expenses. 00:16:45.562 --> 00:16:55.694 So, if you have an expense of 1 lakh in a month, which means 12 lakhs in a year, we just take 35 times of that. 00:16:55.766 --> 00:17:00.018 that is the number of, that is the corpus that you need for your living expenses. 00:17:00.018 --> 00:17:03.540 uh So, that is 35x. 00:17:03.540 --> 00:17:20.408 ah There were multiple studies conducted in US and this is backed by data which says that 25x is enough to live a very peaceful life for the next 30 years. 00:17:21.289 --> 00:17:25.711 And keeping in mind India's inflation and uh 00:17:26.052 --> 00:17:29.346 a bit of uh what you say. 00:17:29.346 --> 00:17:30.991 ah 00:17:34.390 --> 00:17:45.265 I mean uh inflation and uh the amount of money, number of years that are there, uh I believe 35x is more than enough. 00:17:45.265 --> 00:17:50.268 uh But then there are different types of corpuses also. 00:17:50.368 --> 00:17:59.660 So for example, uh we say lean fire, we say fat fire, and this depends. 00:17:59.660 --> 00:18:04.025 A lean fire would be around 35x, a normal fire would be around 35x. 00:18:04.025 --> 00:18:11.385 and a part-time would be around 45 which means you you have 45 years of expenses that you have. 00:18:12.025 --> 00:18:17.065 So that's the different that is the corpus calculation strategy. 00:18:17.725 --> 00:18:31.785 Now comes how do you allocate that money because if you are retiring at 40 and you have to survive up till 85-90 which means that you have at least 50 years of life left. 00:18:32.140 --> 00:18:37.753 But if you are doing it with 35x, you only have 35 years of life left. 00:18:39.038 --> 00:18:42.224 And if you keep that 35x in FD, uh 00:18:43.854 --> 00:18:49.625 right that becomes even less because your FD returns are less than inflation, right. 00:18:49.625 --> 00:19:05.049 So, the purpose of, yeah, so the purpose of, you know, having asset allocation is to ensure that you are safe when you need money, you have enough cash flow, right, in the 00:19:05.049 --> 00:19:10.020 future years for all your expenses and your money also beats inflation. 00:19:10.221 --> 00:19:12.701 That is the purpose of asset allocation. 00:19:13.114 --> 00:19:14.814 So the way, I mean, they're different strategies. 00:19:14.814 --> 00:19:17.094 Again, they're different strategies for asset allocation also. 00:19:17.094 --> 00:19:20.014 There is a 70-30 strategy, 60-40 strategy. 00:19:20.154 --> 00:19:24.514 There is an you know, income-based strategy. 00:19:24.594 --> 00:19:28.894 There are FD and equity strategy, right? 00:19:28.894 --> 00:19:30.194 What I follow is different. 00:19:30.194 --> 00:19:32.634 I follow a five-five-five year strategy, right? 00:19:32.634 --> 00:19:37.034 So I have the first five years, money I have in my bank. 00:19:37.034 --> 00:19:41.854 The next five years would be in hybrid funds and the remaining years would be in equity. 00:19:42.249 --> 00:19:51.536 Every year I rebalance, I take out money from uh one uh asset and put it into another asset so that all the buckets are there. 00:19:51.536 --> 00:19:54.238 This is called the three bucket strategy. 00:19:54.238 --> 00:20:04.075 uh The different strategy that I was talking about, I mean, I can go in depth on those strategies also, but it depends upon which strategy suits you the best. 00:20:04.834 --> 00:20:05.594 Hmm. 00:20:06.816 --> 00:20:08.156 Got it. 00:20:08.156 --> 00:20:12.580 So how has your life changed, you know, since reaching fire? 00:20:12.580 --> 00:20:15.942 Like what surprised you most about this phase of life? 00:20:27.067 --> 00:20:29.171 Was it a drop in connection? 00:20:34.778 --> 00:20:51.927 So what surprised me, I think ah my initial thought was that after retirement I'll just do nothing and enjoy my life and just roam around, watch movies, play video games. 00:20:51.927 --> 00:21:03.233 ah But after four months of doing that, I realized that it's pretty boring to actually just keep enjoying life. 00:21:04.378 --> 00:21:17.627 I think that was a surprise for me because I had thought about doing something, but I never thought that it will be so monotonous if I just keep on doing nothing in life. 00:21:17.627 --> 00:21:20.691 So that was a surprise for me. 00:21:21.950 --> 00:21:23.096 Right? 00:21:23.096 --> 00:21:27.314 What are some of the things that people often misunderstand about fire? 00:21:32.509 --> 00:21:48.329 So I think, and I have been talking as a music fund distributor, I have been talking to a lot of people now because my initial purpose, I I plan for retirement. 00:21:48.329 --> 00:21:51.029 I don't plan for investment to be very frank. 00:21:51.029 --> 00:21:53.529 I don't plan, I don't chase returns. 00:21:53.869 --> 00:22:02.409 So the most important thing that people do for fire is that they just 00:22:02.522 --> 00:22:07.458 you know, case returns, right? 00:22:07.458 --> 00:22:08.559 Gold is going up. 00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:10.982 So you start investing in gold, right? 00:22:10.982 --> 00:22:13.824 Tomorrow silver is going up, so you start investing in silver. 00:22:14.145 --> 00:22:20.172 Eventually what happens is that all your money is invested in different assets. 00:22:20.513 --> 00:22:23.926 And when you need money, you don't know where to take it up from. 00:22:25.577 --> 00:22:27.657 So that I think that's what I have seen. 00:22:27.657 --> 00:22:33.969 I've seen to be multiple portfolios and uh it's a mess to be very frank. 00:22:33.969 --> 00:22:37.690 People have 50 different funds that they have invested in. 00:22:37.910 --> 00:22:44.171 I myself had 50 different mutual funds invested in because I didn't know that. 00:22:44.632 --> 00:22:48.007 And today I'm still trying to bring it down. 00:22:48.007 --> 00:22:52.093 It should be within, it should not be more than 10 to be very frank. 00:22:52.533 --> 00:22:53.954 It should be in single digits. 00:22:53.954 --> 00:22:55.038 So that's, that's. 00:22:55.038 --> 00:22:57.858 That's a mistake that I have seen people do. 00:22:57.978 --> 00:23:07.578 And most of the mutual fund distributors also behave in that fashion because for them, commission is the key. 00:23:07.778 --> 00:23:21.358 So if they are telling folks that invest in this mutual fund because it is giving good returns in the last two years, three years. 00:23:22.645 --> 00:23:26.407 It's like investing in a stock that has already gone up. 00:23:27.948 --> 00:23:30.909 It is already at 52 weeks high, it will definitely fall down. 00:23:31.450 --> 00:23:32.730 We all know that. 00:23:33.090 --> 00:23:45.036 So instead of doing that, the better strategy is to figure out what is the purpose of your investment and where are you investing for that purpose. 00:23:45.036 --> 00:23:52.544 So instead of deciding on the fund, first decide on the fund category based on your goal and then figure out which fund you want to invest in. 00:23:52.544 --> 00:23:58.684 And instead of doing that, just look at the, mean, of course, the returns are important. 00:23:58.684 --> 00:24:02.364 I would not say that returns are not important. 00:24:02.484 --> 00:24:06.424 But yes, anything above 12%, 13 % is more than enough. 00:24:06.584 --> 00:24:17.464 If a fund is giving consistently 14%, 15 % of returns, can blindly, instead of going for the top performance fund, can blindly go for that fund. 00:24:17.464 --> 00:24:18.442 That is what I recommend. 00:24:18.442 --> 00:24:27.410 And you think those those type of investments and those type of returns are fine if you want to, you know, achieve fire in the future sometime. 00:24:27.970 --> 00:24:29.170 Yes. 00:24:29.170 --> 00:24:33.370 See, it's all a game of balancing risk. 00:24:34.030 --> 00:24:40.250 I was designing fire for one person in my community. 00:24:40.990 --> 00:24:47.470 And what I said was that you can fire today. 00:24:48.750 --> 00:24:57.290 The corpus that the person has is around, I think, 15x only. 00:24:57.398 --> 00:24:57.967 Mm. 00:24:57.967 --> 00:24:58.697 Mm. 00:24:58.697 --> 00:25:04.077 said that you can fire today or you can fire after 3-4 years. 00:25:04.257 --> 00:25:13.217 The difference between firing today and firing after 3-4 years is that you will have better safety after 5 years because you will have built that safety bucket. 00:25:13.777 --> 00:25:20.897 If you fire today, you will just have 2 years of money stating in your bank, rest all your money would be deployed in different funds. 00:25:20.897 --> 00:25:25.433 If something happens in the market, we say all. 00:25:25.674 --> 00:25:28.679 yesterday market fell because of the war situation. 00:25:28.961 --> 00:25:32.326 If something happens, then there is no, you would be stuck. 00:25:33.109 --> 00:25:35.773 So it's all about managing risk. 00:25:37.930 --> 00:25:39.002 and keeping buffets. 00:25:39.002 --> 00:25:51.089 so you are according to you, you should at least have four to five years of your initial, you know, in liquid funds where you are able to withdraw from that money whenever you 00:25:51.089 --> 00:25:53.280 know, you can at least for the next four to five years, right? 00:25:53.280 --> 00:25:54.461 Is that that's something? 00:25:54.461 --> 00:25:56.132 Okay. 00:25:56.672 --> 00:25:57.552 Okay. 00:25:57.933 --> 00:25:58.974 Good. 00:25:58.974 --> 00:26:03.826 So looking back, Jen, what's one financial mistake that taught you an important lesson? 00:26:03.826 --> 00:26:07.368 Like, is there anything you would do differently if you were starting again? 00:26:07.978 --> 00:26:12.680 Yes, I think I made a huge mistake in buying real estate. 00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:25.507 ah invested, I got, mean, the property, I had three properties, to be very frank. 00:26:25.907 --> 00:26:29.048 I let go of one after COVID. 00:26:29.049 --> 00:26:31.290 I did deploy them into mutual funds. 00:26:31.290 --> 00:26:36.172 I think the property appreciated after that, but I still believe that I did the right thing. 00:26:36.172 --> 00:26:37.929 ah 00:26:37.929 --> 00:26:41.591 I still have another property which is in a very prime location. 00:26:41.591 --> 00:26:44.011 is a really good property. 00:26:44.909 --> 00:26:48.704 I bought it at around, I think, 50 lakhs. 00:26:48.704 --> 00:26:50.694 Today it's worth 2 crore. 00:26:51.395 --> 00:26:59.658 It's still, uh I mean, it's renting out is, I mean, you don't need to actually search for tenants over there. 00:26:59.859 --> 00:27:05.981 I mean, the guy leaves the property, the next day another tenant is ready. 00:27:06.273 --> 00:27:18.893 It's a prime and this growth, yeah, and this growth is happening, this growth from 50 lakhs to 2 crore has happened over 15 years. 00:27:20.513 --> 00:27:36.193 Okay, so and to be very frank, I had a lot of ESOPs which I sold and I paid off my home loan and I regret that because those ESOPs have grown 20 % or 20 times. 00:27:38.737 --> 00:27:49.586 If I would have kept that 50 lakhs that I have invested in that property, which is now four times, I would have been at least at 10th year. 00:27:52.451 --> 00:28:06.597 Yeah, I think I've spoken to a lot of people and most of them say, know that ah property investment is one of their biggest, you know, decisions which have, you know, kind of just 00:28:06.597 --> 00:28:16.181 devastated their journey towards fire because so much of your money is deployed into the real estate and then you don't have enough to start investing. 00:28:16.181 --> 00:28:17.762 And then once 00:28:17.762 --> 00:28:20.722 You you realize that you have so much money invested. 00:28:20.722 --> 00:28:24.362 It's not liquid and you are not able to sell that house. 00:28:24.362 --> 00:28:25.702 You're not able to get tenants. 00:28:25.702 --> 00:28:29.382 And then I think it's just maintaining that house is a hassle. 00:28:29.382 --> 00:28:29.522 Right. 00:28:29.522 --> 00:28:40.942 And if you are saying that you're that property is in prime location, there is no, you know, no issue of tenants and still in 15 years. 00:28:40.942 --> 00:28:41.222 Yeah. 00:28:41.222 --> 00:28:45.142 In 15 years, it is just gone up for X. 00:28:45.142 --> 00:28:47.242 I think that's, you know, 00:28:47.586 --> 00:28:56.006 Yeah, I think it's a big loss for people who in their initial career years, you know, invest into property. 00:28:56.006 --> 00:28:58.326 So I think coming back to this property thing, right? 00:28:58.326 --> 00:29:05.066 Like I think a lot of people still want to figure out once you have fire, is it good? 00:29:05.066 --> 00:29:09.766 Is it a good idea to buy a house or should you still keep renting? 00:29:11.058 --> 00:29:12.499 It is a personal choice. 00:29:12.499 --> 00:29:16.041 uh Realistic investment is an emotional decision. 00:29:16.101 --> 00:29:18.773 It is not an uh investment decision. 00:29:18.773 --> 00:29:19.743 That is what I say. 00:29:19.743 --> 00:29:21.684 So it is a personal choice. 00:29:21.684 --> 00:29:32.600 uh Ideally, you should have one property in your name so that in case of any uh exigency, you can just go over there and stay there. 00:29:32.600 --> 00:29:35.051 You don't have to pay rent. 00:29:35.592 --> 00:29:39.634 But having said that, there are people who still figure out 00:29:39.746 --> 00:29:44.546 that renting is cheaper and that gives them mobility. 00:29:44.546 --> 00:30:01.506 So for example, if you are retiring in your 40s, you still have at least 15 years of your life where you can actually roam, you can travel, you don't have any lifestyle diseases 00:30:01.506 --> 00:30:02.666 yet. 00:30:03.886 --> 00:30:07.746 And BP and sugar is still far away, 15 years away. 00:30:09.889 --> 00:30:13.491 and you can still, you're still active, right? 00:30:13.491 --> 00:30:16.802 You're not in your 60s because once you do go in your 60s, then you're not active. 00:30:16.802 --> 00:30:18.653 You don't, you can't do much. 00:30:18.793 --> 00:30:21.044 You would do one trip in a year and you would be exhausted. 00:30:21.044 --> 00:30:21.954 Right? 00:30:21.954 --> 00:30:24.875 So, so it's a personal choice. 00:30:25.016 --> 00:30:32.079 If you, and that's, have, I mean, there are people who actually want to do that, right? 00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:33.499 Who want to travel. 00:30:33.499 --> 00:30:37.481 So I recommend that if you, if you are looking forward to travel, 00:30:37.771 --> 00:30:39.276 Why do you want to get a property now? 00:30:39.276 --> 00:30:41.291 Because it's not going to appreciate. 00:30:42.397 --> 00:30:45.285 You should get a property when you want to settle down. 00:30:47.907 --> 00:30:49.587 Yeah, makes sense. 00:30:50.167 --> 00:31:03.611 Okay, so I think family plays an important role in this fire journey and because they are some of the, like one of the people who are most affected by these decisions that we have 00:31:03.611 --> 00:31:05.011 in our life, right? 00:31:05.112 --> 00:31:10.253 So from your perspective, like your family support and how did they take it? 00:31:10.253 --> 00:31:13.750 Like your wife, your kids, your parents and 00:31:13.750 --> 00:31:15.502 maybe their siblings or something like that. 00:31:15.502 --> 00:31:24.945 Like how did those guys, you know, ah like did you factor in those things when you were taking a decision to become financially independent? 00:31:24.945 --> 00:31:26.536 What was their reaction? 00:31:27.713 --> 00:31:32.232 To be very frank, still haven't told my parents. 00:31:32.273 --> 00:31:34.113 They still believe I'm doing some business. 00:31:34.113 --> 00:31:39.553 I haven't done from salary, from a job and I'm doing business. 00:31:39.553 --> 00:31:45.933 That's what I have told them because I believe it is very difficult for me to explain the situation to them. 00:31:45.933 --> 00:31:47.013 They would not understand. 00:31:47.013 --> 00:31:51.333 My dad worked till I think 70. 00:31:51.893 --> 00:31:54.361 He retired at 60 then he... 00:31:54.378 --> 00:31:58.561 went to Nigeria, he stayed there for four or five years and he came back to India. 00:31:58.561 --> 00:32:03.204 Then he worked in his, you know, friend's office for five more years. 00:32:03.204 --> 00:32:06.265 So he stayed, he worked in 70, he's now 80 plus. 00:32:06.506 --> 00:32:07.106 Right. 00:32:07.106 --> 00:32:10.508 And he still expects that, you know, he still expects to work. 00:32:11.569 --> 00:32:16.542 Still, he still keeps on forwarding me because I've got this interview call. 00:32:16.542 --> 00:32:18.914 was like, please. 00:32:21.255 --> 00:32:24.147 So I don't believe they will understand this. 00:32:24.742 --> 00:32:30.626 My ah kids are happy because I am at home most of time. 00:32:30.987 --> 00:32:41.265 am responsible for dropping them to tuition, picking them up from tuition, from their birthday parties and all those things. 00:32:41.265 --> 00:32:45.338 So that's what I am doing and always available father. 00:32:45.338 --> 00:32:49.842 ah My wife is, I think she is okay. 00:32:49.842 --> 00:32:53.465 She doesn't, uh she has her own life. 00:32:53.985 --> 00:33:01.745 So she actually wanted to work, but she stopped working after the kids came to the picture. 00:33:02.245 --> 00:33:04.525 So now she has started working. 00:33:04.525 --> 00:33:06.565 She started working after COVID, think. 00:33:06.565 --> 00:33:08.845 Yeah, two, three years after COVID. 00:33:09.065 --> 00:33:11.665 And I think this is the second year. 00:33:11.845 --> 00:33:16.345 She's enjoying corporate life to a very kind, before she gets bored of it. 00:33:16.345 --> 00:33:17.665 So yeah. 00:33:19.325 --> 00:33:21.585 So it's, I mean... 00:33:21.704 --> 00:33:26.988 I think the good point is that uh we have adjusted pretty well. 00:33:26.988 --> 00:33:40.176 I was a bit apprehensive that we might not get adjusted, but yeah, I think we have pretty much adjusted to this lifestyle. 00:33:40.992 --> 00:33:41.483 Right. 00:33:41.483 --> 00:33:49.247 What about like friends and you know, people in the community like what what do they think that Jayant now are you financially independent? 00:33:49.247 --> 00:33:51.701 Like what what will you do with your life now? 00:33:52.143 --> 00:33:54.386 Is that something that they they ask? 00:33:54.558 --> 00:33:58.411 They asked me every time I meet, I mean, I just met them this Friday. 00:33:58.411 --> 00:34:01.293 So they were like, what are you doing throughout the day? 00:34:01.293 --> 00:34:04.786 I like, I spend my day, my day is all figured out. 00:34:05.287 --> 00:34:06.868 I spend quite a lot. 00:34:06.948 --> 00:34:14.435 I have been start, I started gym to be very, know, to be, and I recently got my cold boy test done. 00:34:14.435 --> 00:34:18.958 No cholesterol, no sugar, ah everything under control. 00:34:19.018 --> 00:34:20.399 So I was like, yeah. 00:34:20.399 --> 00:34:21.013 uh 00:34:21.013 --> 00:34:25.557 I'm 45 plus and I'm still doing good. 00:34:26.479 --> 00:34:31.723 So they still ask me what I do to spend my time. 00:34:32.084 --> 00:34:40.032 And I have pretty much good, well-defined schedule in my life now. 00:34:40.032 --> 00:34:51.436 I think that is pretty important, When you are working, you know, okay, I have to to job from this time to this time, and then maybe some other activities throughout the day. 00:34:51.436 --> 00:34:55.277 So I think the days are pretty planned out when you have a full-time working job. 00:34:55.277 --> 00:35:05.340 But after you are independent, I think if you are in that kind of mindset of keeping your day occupied, then I think that uh sits pretty well with people who have been working for 00:35:05.340 --> 00:35:06.420 a long time. 00:35:06.432 --> 00:35:10.133 And then suddenly, you know, you're fine and independent and you don't know what to do. 00:35:10.133 --> 00:35:15.346 I think this plan structure is something that people often fall back to. 00:35:15.518 --> 00:35:21.552 Yeah, and people are there are people uh because I'm not talking to a lot of people. 00:35:21.852 --> 00:35:30.338 There are people who already have the corpus, but they are afraid to, you know, the job because they don't know what they will do after retirement. 00:35:30.698 --> 00:35:34.160 They don't have they don't have any hobbies. 00:35:34.401 --> 00:35:35.511 I have my hobbies. 00:35:35.511 --> 00:35:38.704 have uh I play video games. 00:35:38.704 --> 00:35:40.925 I go for bike rides. 00:35:40.925 --> 00:35:42.066 So I have my hobbies. 00:35:42.066 --> 00:35:45.548 I have and I have pretty much good amount of people. 00:35:45.632 --> 00:35:49.270 once you go out you actually figure out there are lot of things to do right. 00:35:49.270 --> 00:35:49.480 Right? 00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:58.628 Okay, so then for someone in their 20s who's hearing about financial independence and things like that for the first time, what advice would you give them? 00:35:58.628 --> 00:36:00.800 Like what habits matter the most? 00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:03.952 What should people focus early on in their career? 00:36:04.482 --> 00:36:17.665 So the first thing is that whenever someone is actually wanting to look at fire, ah the first important thing is to build your emergency corpus. 00:36:18.146 --> 00:36:23.787 Because in today's uh a job is something which is not static. 00:36:24.788 --> 00:36:26.818 Anyone can lose a job today, tomorrow. 00:36:26.818 --> 00:36:31.749 mean, that's become more volatile in recent times. 00:36:31.749 --> 00:36:34.290 So building your emergency corpus is important. 00:36:34.746 --> 00:36:41.750 Second thing is that create a plan and allocate funds to those plans. 00:36:42.150 --> 00:36:52.816 Because once you have a plan and you have a fund, know that this is how my cash flow would look like when I retire. 00:36:52.816 --> 00:36:56.438 To be very frank, no one would be doing 100 % of the plan. 00:36:57.139 --> 00:37:01.881 If you have five goals, have maybe five or six funds allocated to those goals. 00:37:01.881 --> 00:37:03.160 uh 00:37:03.160 --> 00:37:06.841 Whenever you do review, figure out, will see that this fund is performing better. 00:37:06.841 --> 00:37:08.001 me switch. 00:37:08.001 --> 00:37:09.822 So this will happen. 00:37:10.022 --> 00:37:25.206 But the most important point is to have that plan and to have a focused approach towards uh investment because too many switches, too many funds, they actually create a chaos, 00:37:25.206 --> 00:37:27.666 which is very difficult to solve later. 00:37:28.847 --> 00:37:30.467 I am struggling to that. 00:37:30.499 --> 00:37:31.979 I'm struggling. 00:37:31.979 --> 00:37:36.319 I'm still struggling because whenever if I sell funds, I will have to pay capital gains. 00:37:36.319 --> 00:37:40.199 If I don't sell funds, they are giving me less returns. 00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:40.779 Right. 00:37:40.779 --> 00:37:43.139 So that is the situation that you landed. 00:37:45.056 --> 00:37:45.387 Right? 00:37:45.387 --> 00:37:52.860 um And one question I like to end with is do you think pursuing financial independence was worth it? 00:37:53.143 --> 00:37:55.544 Yes, definitely. 00:37:55.684 --> 00:38:15.995 I to be very frank, I am surprised how much time I used to take out from my life for work and I still am not able to figure out how I used to take out that much time because now 00:38:16.076 --> 00:38:17.837 today I don't have time. 00:38:17.837 --> 00:38:22.721 You told me that you wanted to connect with me and I said, you know, let's let me do 1030. 00:38:23.376 --> 00:38:27.758 And I know that you are from US so you it's a state mine late night for you. 00:38:27.798 --> 00:38:43.184 But for me even 1030 is early right I I only did I only did gym for half an hour today Right so that I can meet you and we can have this discussion but uh My complete day is you 00:38:43.184 --> 00:38:44.805 know is well sorted out. 00:38:44.805 --> 00:38:48.476 I and even weekends are sorted out right. 00:38:48.476 --> 00:38:50.707 I have my bike rides planned 00:38:50.707 --> 00:38:54.210 This weekend is also planned, next weekend we have a long ride planned. 00:38:54.210 --> 00:38:59.212 So, I don't know how I used to do that, all those things earlier. 00:38:59.593 --> 00:39:04.596 And lot of things, mean, there lot of things to do. 00:39:04.697 --> 00:39:20.267 we, we, we, there is something, ah once we are in a, in a comfort zone doing our job, right, it becomes very difficult for us to look beyond that comfort zone. 00:39:20.913 --> 00:39:25.305 because it helps us have a time span. 00:39:25.305 --> 00:39:29.287 uh My nine hours are fixed. 00:39:29.388 --> 00:39:32.129 I know what I am doing in the next nine hours. 00:39:33.510 --> 00:39:44.036 But once you get out of that nine hours and you try to do something, you try to struggle, you try to figure out what you're doing, that is when your actual growth starts. 00:39:44.036 --> 00:39:49.229 It is when you actually understand who as a person you are. 00:39:49.839 --> 00:39:52.682 What is your purpose in life? 00:39:52.883 --> 00:39:57.087 So, yeah, I think it was totally worth it. 00:39:58.368 --> 00:39:58.759 Okay. 00:39:58.759 --> 00:39:59.760 All right. 00:39:59.821 --> 00:40:03.248 So Jen, thank you so much for sharing your story and insights today. 00:40:03.248 --> 00:40:07.174 I really appreciate you taking the time to talk about your journey. 00:40:07.276 --> 00:40:08.657 So yeah, thank you so much. 00:40:08.657 --> 00:40:09.393 Yeah, thanks. 00:40:09.393 --> 00:40:10.818 Great talking to you. 00:40:11.906 --> 00:40:13.146 Yeah, same here.