Welcome to Sales Talk for CEOs. I'm glad you're
here. I'll be interviewing CEOs who have successfully
scaled their B2B sales organization. In each
episode, I'll start by uncovering the sales background
of each CEO, dig into the strategies they use
to build their sales organization, and wrap it
up with what the future holds. We'll cover the
good, the bad, and the ugly of scaling a sales
organization. I'm your host, Alice Hyman. Hi,
I'm Alice Hyman. And today I'm launching a podcast
specifically for CEOs who want to make a huge
impact on sales in their organizations. They
may already be doing this or they may just be
starting, but... They want to learn from other
CEOs who have done it, the good, the bad, and
the ugly. And here to help me launch is my good
friend and master storyteller, Park Howell. Hi,
Alice. This is just an absolute honor to be on
your inaugural show. Thanks for having me. This
is so cool. I wish I had found you about 30 years
ago when I was building my ad agency. I think
it would have been way easier because I knew
bupkis about selling myself. You know, I've heard
a lot of CEOs tell me that, Park, that they wish
they had met me a long time ago. Because one
of the things that I do is, as you know, I help
make sales easier. And who doesn't want to make
sales easier at their sales organization? Yeah,
you're absolutely right. And what I like about
your positioning in the market, because as you
know, I've been in the branding world for 35
years, and that's been my core job is positioning
folks, is the fact that you work specifically
with CEOs, asking that tough question. Are sales
where you want them to be? Right. And you always
say no. Next question, of course, is, Well, is
it your fault? And I really love that positioning
for what you're doing with this program and what
you do with your services. Yeah, I think that
sometimes CEOs, especially if they've never been
in sales, really don't feel like sales is their
thing or that they should really. be involved
very much in sales at their organization, especially
the more mature companies that I work with that
may be 5, 10, or even 30 years old. But my feeling
is that a CEO always has a role in sales. From
being the founder and maybe doing all of the
selling to a 30 -year -old company where they
may be ready to exit, they always have a role
in sales. It just changes as the organization
matures. begs the question then alice after all
these years you are launching your own podcast
and it's not about selling to ceos like many
many shows are out there it's really about the
ceo and how they can get better at helping to
direct their revenue organization and that they
have to be at the center of that in one way,
shape, or form and how you help them do that.
Right, exactly. So selling to CEOs is another
problem that does need to be covered. However,
that is not the one I am covering. It really
is about how the CEO can help with the sales
strategy. And more importantly, support that
sales strategy wholeheartedly so that the sales
team, you know, from CRO down or, you know, if
you're a smaller company, you don't have a CRO
yet, the director of sales, VP of sales, or even
just sales manager, but that team can execute,
right? In conjunction with marketing and customer
success, because the world is changing and it's
more, more quickly than ever, right? With COVID
and everything that's happened. And so we're
seeing the customer change the way they're buying.
And we now have to become more... adept at engaging
that buyer. And that means that we have to look
at things a different way. We have to put ourselves
out to the world in a different way. And that
means that sales, marketing, and customer success
have to think together about that journey of
the customer and where they intersect with that.
This is broader than just the sales team. The
CEO must be involved because they've got to set
that strategy, set that vision for how we're
going to interact with the customer. bring all
the teams together around that so that they can
move forward and really help their customers.
And by doing that, of course, you know, they
gain more sales. Well, you have a long storied
career in sales strategy consulting, and you
come from the famous Miller -Hyman background.
Would you share your backstory with us? I always
am fascinated when I host my show, The Business
of Story for the past six years is talking to
these leaders like yourself and what got you
going and what were the highs and lows that have
really informed who you are today and leading
up to why you're doing this show? Yeah, my backstory
is a pretty interesting one considering the fact
that I didn't start in sales, and I never intended
to go into sales. It's pretty interesting. I
started as a public school teacher. And I actually
taught special education and I was a reading
specialist for about 13 years before I ever went
into business. So I really had no intention of
being a salesperson or doing really anything
related to sales. Little did I know once I got
into sales that being a teacher is a lot like
being a seller. You are constantly selling your
ideas to... students and parents, right, to get
them to do all kinds of fun things to learn.
But I got catapulted into the world of sales
because my father, as some of you know, was partners
with Bob Miller in Miller Hyman. And he had bought
Bob Miller out of the business in the late 80s
and was growing the business with his wife, Diane.
And they kept inviting me to come work for them
full time. Now, I had been doing projects on
the side for them for a long time, but they wanted
me to work for them full time. And I kept saying,
but I'm a teacher. So anyway, eventually. I did
go work for them, and it was a lot of fun. I
learned a ton. I worked with all the curriculum
in the Miller -Hyman program, strategic selling
and conceptual selling. I got to work with some
of the largest customers. Of course, I started
selling, even though that wasn't why they hired
me. Specifically, they hired me more on the curriculum
end of things, actually, Park, which was kind
of interesting. And then I just naturally started
working with our clients and selling. trained
all of the Miller -Hyman programs for those years
that I worked there. And I also trained the trainers
and coached them to make sure they were successful.
So all the stuff I learned to do as a teacher
really helped coming forward into my sales career
with Miller -Hyman and getting that launched.
But it wasn't long before my dad decided he wanted
to sell the company. And so I started my own
company. Here we are. I started working with
CEOs and I loved it so much that I've been doing
it for over 20 years. Well, stories are always
about those moments and the intersection of moments.
So it's not surprising that you come out of the
teaching world, but you were also raised in the
selling world and to have those come together.
I mean, really a podcast, a good podcast like
yours here is nothing more than a teaching and
instructional tool because people show up. to
learn what can I do better? How can I get myself
out of this problem? You know, we're not Seinfeld
here just entertaining people. You've got to
bring the teaching expertise. And so you've got
decades of that and in sales. Take us back to
a moment where it was really tough for you. Maybe
you were selling it at Miller Hyman at the time,
but you found yourself making a classic. sales
mistake that you learned from that we could all
learn from? Well, I have made many. And anybody
who's been selling for any period of time has
made many, many mistakes. But I've had to fix
quite a few problems with clients and had some
interesting things happen. Like one time when
I was working with a company who sold textbooks,
a rather large company that everyone would recognize.
My dad thought it would be a great idea for me
to work with that company because I had a background
in education. So I knew about textbooks. I had
been on the other side of textbooks adoptions
and so seemed like a good idea. Well, I flew
out to this conference for textbooks where all
the leaders of this company, including the CEO,
were gathering and just little old me and I was,
you know, in my 30s maybe. And just had started,
you know, really selling and met with all these
people. I had prepared for days. Thought I had
a great conversation with them. Didn't talk too
much. Followed my call plan. Did everything just
right. And I got back to the office and my stepmom,
Diane, called me into her office and she said,
they don't want to work with you. And I was like,
what? They loved me. How is that possible, right?
Uh, well they didn't, they did want Miller Heim
and they did want the program. They just didn't
want to work with me. Of course I was crushed,
totally crushed park and, uh, couldn't figure
out what had happened, but obviously I. did not
present myself well to the CEO and a couple of
the others, even though they were very nice to
me. So I did not close that deal. They gave it
to someone else to close and they got the commission
too. In hindsight, at that time, did you go back
thinking, well, I came out of there believing
they loved me, but they didn't. Do you remember
what happened in that session that went sideways?
I just think that I was young and naive and these
people were, you know, older than me and a lot
wiser. And I was just doing what I had planned
to do probably and not really paying attention,
even though I was listening. I probably wasn't
really reading the room very well. So I really
don't know. I did call, actually, the person
who I had the best relationship with and asked
her what happened. And she said, you know, just
the CEO and some of the other senior people.
didn't feel like I would really be a good fit
for the people I would be training. And she was
trying to be nice, of course. I don't know. They
probably just didn't like me. And, you know,
I got over it, but I was crushed for months.
So, yeah, I mean, that's just one small one.
But, you know, I've had several accounts that
I had to save a big beverage company, again,
that everyone would recognize, you know, a global
beverage company where I had Some really bad
problems that were left over from the previous
sales rep and had to walk into the CEO's office.
I had never, you know, hadn't had much experience
at that point with CEOs of multi -billion dollar
companies. I was shaking like a leaf, you know,
you know, again, I was all of maybe. 33 years
old or something like that. And I managed to
pull it off, but there were some moments where
I was like, oh my God. I mean, people talk about
imposter syndrome these days. I didn't even know
what that was back then, but I certainly had
it. You know, it was like, how can I talk to
a CEO? Oh my gosh. But I did it, you know, and
I was very successful in my career with Miller
Hyman. And then, you know, when I left and it
was the dot com time and I started working with
CEOs of these startups and helping them start
companies from scratch. And it just really went
well, even though I had no idea what I was doing.
I was just making it up as I went along. But
what I learned over those years was how to start
a sales team from scratch and how to do it well.
Right. And then that morphed into me working
with more mature companies, which I do now. And
it's just been such a fun ride. And working with
CEOs is just such a pleasure, especially those
who are really innovative and progressive. And
they really want sales at their organization
to be great. They really want to serve their
customers. And they really want to support. Everyone
who supports the customer. You know, when I was
a CEO, founder of my ad agency, Park & Co., which
I ran in Phoenix for 20 years, I was in complete
la -la land, believing that our work alone would
sell itself and we would get referral and whatever.
And it did. I mean, we were successful for that
first 10 years and we grew very quickly. We were
kind of the new kids on the block and the work
was just coming in. But once it was interesting,
Alice, that we got settled as one of the agencies
in Phoenix, all of a sudden the competition ramped
up. And I didn't ramp up as a sales guy. I thought,
well, you know, it's worked the first 10 years.
It's going to work the second 10 years. And it
was a major mistake on my part. I did hire a
sales guy, brought him in. He lasted for about
six months. Nothing came of that. And I, until
I met you, would blame him. You know, why can't
he bring in sales? And then I realized it wasn't
him. It was me. I did not have a program for
him to follow. Or did I understand the program
he brought in thinking he was the sales pro and
how it was going to work for us? And it didn't
work for us. Again, not his fault. Is this something
that you see a lot with founders and CEOs of
companies of all sizes that we get so embroiled
in the day -to -day operations, we think sales
is someone else's job? Yeah, you are a perfect
example, Park, of the CEOs that I work with.
It usually is 10 or sometimes even 20 years in
where they hit this plateau and they're just
not growing. And it is oftentimes, like you said,
because whatever they produce sold itself to
some degree, right? Enough to really keep the
company growing for a while. But it just... plateaus
at some point. And then how do you get past that?
And a lot of it can be because the CEO doesn't
understand sales, maybe hired on some salespeople.
I had one CEO, the company was, gosh, at least
20 years old when I started working with them.
They did want to exit. And so they were, you
know, wanting to increase their sales to a certain
point so that they could get, you know, of course,
a better valuation and have a higher exit value.
And the CEO said to me, Well, I've had three
VPs of sales in here in three years and they
were all terrible, terrible, you know, couldn't
do their job, you know? And so I said, oh gosh,
you know, tell me some more about that. We talked
through it, we talked through it. And she looked
at me and she goes, oh, it wasn't them. I get
it now. It was me. Just like you said, Park,
you didn't really have a system in place. You
didn't have the vision for sales or the... strategy
for sales. You expected them to bring that into
your company. Now, Alice, I didn't want to do
sales. I wanted to do advertising and marketing
and creative work. It'd be so good that people
would just naturally be drawn to us. And it just
didn't work because what it did is it drew all
of the big agency competitors in because we now
have their attention and they're like, who's
this upstart? We're going to go after their business
and knock them off. And so I'm curious too, how
many CEOs do you run into? into that are just
like, I don't want to do these sales. I don't
want to sell my thing. A lot of them, and they
shouldn't be selling, especially if their company's
10 years old and they have a sales team, right?
Now, at the beginning, CEOs sell because when
you're the founder and you start a company, you
sell. That's what you do. That's part of it,
although they don't want to necessarily. And
many CEOs that I work with have zero sales experience
other than selling at their own company when
they founded it. So 10 years in, 20 years in,
now they've built this sales organization. And
some of it's really humming along and working
and some of it's not. Or they've hit this plateau
again. And yeah, they don't want to be the one
to sell. And at that point, they shouldn't be
the one to sell. But they absolutely should be
setting the strategy, setting that vision, making
sure that the sales, marketing, and customer
success are working together in harmony to support
that customer and providing the budget that's
needed to do a great job. And really providing
that support and the encouragement. A lot of
times the CEOs think, well, what do they need
me to say, oh, good job for? Well, are you kidding
me? They're selling for your company. Of course
you should say good job when they close a big
deal. It's super important and it matters to
the salespeople. So I think that the CEO's role,
again, changes through the life cycle of the
company. But at the point where you're 20 years
old and the company's 20 years old, you've got
a plateau and you've got to change things. That
can only come from the most senior level in an
organization. That can't come from the sales
organization or just be the marketing's fault
or marketing's problem or it's customer success.
No, it's all of you and you all report into the
CEO and the CEO needs to make adjustments in
that organizational structure and how people
work together and the tools and the support mechanisms
to make things really work. So in your line of
work, Alice, I would imagine in your discovery
process, you have to go in and understand probably,
well, a lot of things, but in my mind, two major
things. Where is the company right now? What
is its opportunity for growth? And it sounds
like all the customers you work with have this
tremendous opportunity for growth. They're not
living into it because they don't have their
sales strategy together. So that's probably the
first thing. Where's the company? But then you
probably have to really understand what the mindset
is of the CEO. and where they are on their own
career trajectory as founder, business owner,
and marry those two together so that you can
coach them and provide the strategies that are
going to work quickly, as quickly as possible
for them. That is absolutely right. So I've got
to see where they are and where they want to
go. And then I need to understand the CEO's mindset.
And from there, I can help them build the strategy
that they need and then build the sales organization
that they need to support the customers that
they want to bring in, right? And keep the company
growing at the pace they want it to grow. Many
of these CEOs have brought in private equity
or they were already private equity backed, but
they wanted to maybe launch a new product or
change some things. So they either took some
debt or equity and now they have even more pressure
on them. perform, but also they may want to exit,
especially when you're starting to see companies
that are 20 and 30 years old. The owner -founder
may be ready to exit, pass it down to their kids,
sell to another firm, be acquired, or they may
be trying to do acquisitions. and make themselves
bigger. So there's all these different things
that CEOs want to do, and sales directly impacts
their ability to do all of those things. And
you know, as a CEO, Park, what do you really
want? You want the freedom. You want the choice.
You want... to do what you want to do, right?
And so in order to do that, sales have to be
up. So your valuation is high and then you have
many, many choices. So let me ask you, how often
do you get pushback from CEOs of saying, Alice,
that's not my job. That's my chief revenue officer's
job. That's my head of sales job. Why are you
pestering me with this? Well, most of the CEOs
that I work with, have got some idea that it
is their responsibility, their role. That's why
they've come to me, right? They're like, I know
I need to play a role in this. I'm not sure exactly
what it is or how to make it happen. But I do
hear them saying things like, well, isn't that
what marketing is supposed to do? Or isn't that
what sales is supposed to do? Yes, it is. But
the question is, are you enabling them to do
it, right? So if you look at the revenue operations
of your company, and again, back to sales, marketing,
and customer success, all of those who support
the company, and you could even wrap operations
and production into that too, because they're
producing the goods and getting them out to the
customer or providing the services. So the whole
organization has to work together really well
to support the customer. You as the CEO don't
recognize your role. You do maybe think that
it is someone else's responsibility. Once you've
set that strategy and that vision and you've
given everybody what they need, it is their responsibility
and you do need to hold them accountable. That's
a big problem I see today is there are sales
teams doing all kinds of things. The CEO doesn't
really know what they're doing and they're not
being held accountable. And so they're not hitting
the numbers that they're expected to hit. the
number may be a whole nother problem because
it maybe was pulled out of thin air. And that's
again, because the CEO didn't really know how
to set the strategy and the investors were putting
a lot of pressure on them. So we can have realistic
numbers that our teams can hit, right? But we
do have to have that vision and that strategy
in place and all of these departments working
together. And again, that's why when I talk sales,
I'm talking to the CEO because Only the CEO can
make the kinds of decisions that need to be made,
can set the strategy, can have the vision. Only
a CEO can do that. A sales leader can't do that.
They have to look up to their leadership team
to provide that to them. And they cannot, on
their own, make the changes that are needed in
today's market to really help their company have
the growth that is needed. It has to be done
at the senior level, and it has to be... an effort
between all departments that serve the customer.
And Alice, is that why you have really separated
yourself from the sales coaches and strategists
in the world who primarily work with the chief
revenue officers or the head of sales? And you
are really specifically about that CEO and founder
because you feel like that's where you're going
to have the biggest impact. 100 % because if
I... work just with the sales leader, which I
have done in the past. They start telling you
how marketing doesn't do this and customer success
doesn't do that and all the problems that they're
having. And the CEO won't let them do this or
won't give them a budget for that. So now we're
stuck. We're stuck in this place where, okay,
well, what can I do about their marketing team
or their customer success team? I can do nothing,
so I can't fix those problems. I can help them
level up their sellers. I can help them with
the sales organization that reports to them.
I can do some things, but it won't be a significant
enough change unless the CEO can support all
of those changes that we need. and get these
teams to work together in concert to really support
the customer. So we can only go so far if we
don't have the CEO 100 % behind us and supporting
us in the way that we need them to. In planning
of your show here, I know you've done a whole
lot of research on the different podcasts that
are available out there in sales, and you found
that really no one show speaks directly to the
CEO and what they can do. Was that the impetus
behind this? Because you've got a lot on your
plate already, and you're already very busy.
Why did you take on now the onerous, and I know
after doing them for six years, effort of putting
together this marvelous show? Yeah, there are
tons of fabulous sales podcasts out there. I
listen to them. A lot of my friends are the hosts.
I love them. But they don't speak specifically
to the CEO about sales and what they can do to
really... improve the whole revenue operations
of their company. They're not really talking
to the leader of the company about the future
of sales and the changes that are coming that
the CEO is going to need to adjust to. They're
addressing a lot of important issues around sales,
but not specifically what the CEO should be doing
to support. So they get the growth they need
and their company gets the valuation it needs.
And then back to having many, many choices. And
who will be appearing on your show? CEOs. So
I have CEOs and founders, CEOs and founders.
Most of the guests that are coming are CEOs of
more mature companies. Their revenues are usually
10 million plus. A lot of them started their
companies, so they were founders before they
were CEOs. And they have built their sales organization
to what it is today and have had some challenges
and some successes that they're going to share.
And we're also going to talk about the future
and what they see in the future of what they're
going to need to do and how they're going to
need to change to keep up the pace that they
want for their growth and get their valuation
where they'd like it to be. Now, with every CEO,
they have successes, but we all have tremendous
failures. Are you going to be able to pull some
of those out of them? Because I found that that's
really where the juice is. People want to know
where their misstep was, how your listeners,
viewers can avoid that, and more importantly,
what are the steps that can be taken to either
both avoid it and or get yourself out of it as
quickly as possible. Are you going to be sharing
a lot of your advice on these episodes? Well,
I want CEOs to learn from CEOs, right? So they're
going to be sharing a lot of, like I said, the
good, the bad, and the ugly, because that's how
we learn. And we learn from those failures, and
they learn from their failures. So we want to
all hear about that, of course. It will be a
lot of fun, I think, talking with these CEOs
to also be able to give them a little bit of
coaching on what they could have done possibly
or what they can do next. And I know that these
CEOs will be open to that because they all really
want to grow and they really want to support
sales at their company. So what are like the
top three things that you often encounter? with
a CEO that is standing in their way, that is
an obstacle to their success that we can share
right now so any viewer listening out there can
go, yep, I'm one, two, or all three of those.
Yeah, I think the very first and probably most
important thing is the mindset. The CEO's mindset
around sales really matters. If they think that
it's something they don't want to be involved
with, they don't want to do, they don't really
like sales, That's a tough one because that bleeds
through into everything that they do, right?
And it bleeds through to how they feel about
sales, their sales team, and what their sales
team does. And so I think that mindset is really
important. We need to get their mindset around
sales to be a positive one and have them be able
to communicate that positive mindset. So I think
that is something that I see a lot and we have
to work with that. So that's probably the first
thing. I think the second thing is that many
CEOs don't really know what modern selling is.
They don't really know how modern buyers want
to buy. Really, it's not their job to know that.
That's what their marketing and sales team should
bring to them. You know, the leaders of those
teams should bring to them what is modern selling
today and how does it work and how is the customer
buying? Many CEOs have an idea of how they did
sales if they ever did sales before they started
their company. Maybe that was 20, 30 years ago.
Those things that they did then that worked beautifully
don't work anymore. So they might be asking their
sales team to do the wrong activities. And they
might be putting pressure on their sales team
to do the wrong types of behaviors because that's
what worked when they were selling or in the
early days of their company, these things did
work. But they don't work anymore. So we have
to help the CEOs understand what modern sellers
should be doing. and what modern buyers respond
to. So it's really about customer engagement.
So that's the second thing. Get them to understand
what customer engagement looks like today so
they can support their team in doing it. And
then I'd probably say the third thing is really
helping them understand if they have the right
people in place, right? So to grow this organization
to where you want to grow it. Did you hire the
right people? Do you have the right people? Have
you had some sales leaders with you for 20 years
who just can't move the direction you're moving?
I have this with a company that sold into hospitals,
some very expensive software into hospitals.
And the CEO had been in sales in the early days
and had been very successful. And they were at
a plateau and they really needed to move forward.
And he knew that. But he couldn't quite put his
finger on what it was. And so after I worked
with him for a while, I understood his mindset
and it was good. And he did know what needed
to happen and what was modern selling. But the
two sales leaders that he had in place had been
there a long, long time. And even though the
CEO had set a vision. for the future and set
a new strategy. They just couldn't come forward
into that. And we did end up having to let one
of them go off to a new adventure, you know,
very gracefully, always part ways gracefully.
And then the other one, we moved into a different
position to manage really large accounts. And
we brought in a new CRO who really understood.
what the future of sales was all about. And it
made a huge difference, but we just were stuck.
I had done all kinds of things to try to make
it work. And I came back to that CEO and I said,
it's not going to work because these leaders
won't allow it. They are stuck in their ways
of 20 years ago and they're not going to change.
So this is a really hard decision because the
CEO had been with these people for a long time
and they were friends. He didn't want to let
them go, right? But he had to make these changes
or his company would have stayed right where
it was. So sometimes CEOs have to make really
hard decisions. But again, the sales team leader,
the whole sales team couldn't fix that. It was
broken and they weren't fixing it. The CEO had
to fix it. So it comes down to the three M's
of overcoming your sales problems. Fix your mindsets.
Understand modern selling and surround yourself
with magnificent salespeople. That's absolutely
right. We've recorded this, right? So we better
write that down. Did you record? Yeah, I think
we're good. Yeah, yeah, I think we did. Oh, my
gosh, yeah. This has just been amazing, Park.
I so appreciate you getting this story out of
me so that everyone can understand. what this
podcast is going to be about and who it's going
to be for. It is for CEOs, but of course, all
sales leaders as CROs and CMOs, you should listen
to because you can help your CEO. You can help
them get to where they need to be. You can help
them with their mindset, their modern selling.
magnificent people so um oh my gosh that's just
perfect absolutely park absolutely he and i was
just noticing there all this time i've been talking
to you it looks like you're in a prison cell
what did they put your way for well come here
you know i mean we've all been in the virtual
world this is virtual and i kind of sum up like
zoom as to being in a turkish prison and we're
having a turkish prison visit here so i'm tapping
on the glass saying alice get me out of here
get me out no actually the truth is my wife michelle
and i moved up to northern arizona we have a
beautiful home on a lake but it's rural and what
comes with rural living is horrible You just
never know when you're going to get it. So our
niece and her husband run this wonderful gym
here in Flagstaff called Paragon Athletics, and
they train elite runners and distance, you know,
the crazy people. Oh, cool. They've got this
beautiful little storage facility and great Wi
-Fi that I'm hanging out with them today. You're
in a storage room today. You're coming to us
live from the storage room at the gym. In Flagstaff,
Arizona. You know why? Because the show must
go on. That's right. That is right, Park. And
that's what I want CEOs to know. The show must
go on. It is your job to make that show happen.
And I am going to help you do it. So I am just
so thrilled to be launching this podcast. Park,
thank you so much. Do you have any last questions
for me before we go? You know, no, I know one
last question, but I just want to let you know
that I've known of you and we've been friends
virtually for several years, but I've distinct
fortune of working with you last year, first
working on your brand story, but then you coaching
me on my sales. for the business of story. And
I've been doing this work for a long time and
I realized I didn't know what I didn't know about
selling until I met you. And so I want to thank
you for all the contributions and the instruction
you've given me to help build out the business
of story and just really appreciate being here
with you to launch this fabulous new program.
Thank you for that. Oh, my pleasure. It's a pleasure
to help your company grow and help you as the
CEO. And I am looking forward to all of the great
information that the CEOs that I interview are
going to share with all of the other CEOs out
there. So, Park, thank you so much. And I know
I'll be talking to you soon. Thanks, Alice. Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to Sales Talk for CEOs.
You can find me at alicehyman .com. Be sure and
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