Brian Mueller: Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation.
Brian Mueller: My name is Brian Mueller.
Brian Mueller: I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen.
Brian Mueller: I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story.
Brian Mueller: This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterwards.
Brian Mueller: This podcast is truly a labor of love, inspired by my own transformative experience at the men's rites of passage and my ongoing commitment to the Illuman Community.
Brian Mueller: If this show resonates with you, please take a moment to rate, review, and share it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
Brian Mueller: You can find all of those links at mrop talk dot
Brian Mueller: com
Brian Mueller: To support my work, you can explore my published poetry volumes at Brian Mueller dot
Brian Mueller: com.
Brian Mueller: I also work closely with men and Illuman to share and teach the practice of presence.
Brian Mueller: You can learn more about that at choosing presence dot
Brian Mueller: org.
Brian Mueller: Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul.
Brian Mueller: On this show we just don't talk about the rites in theory.
Brian Mueller: We talk to the men who have walked the path.
Brian Mueller: Today I'm joined by a man who has made us rites, and we're going to hear
Brian Mueller: Exactly what that journey looked like for him.
Brian Mueller: My guest today is Joe Grilliot.
Brian Mueller: Brother, I'm really glad you're here.
Brian Mueller: Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story.
Joe Grilliot: Thank you.
Joe Grilliot: Thanks for asking me.
Brian Mueller: Joe, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days.
Joe Grilliot: I'm from small Versailles, Ohio, out in the cornfields, and I farm.
Joe Grilliot: So raising corn and soybeans and growing food for animals mostly.
Brian Mueller: Well now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: The MROP is a unique experience.
Brian Mueller: It's not a retreat or a workshop.
Brian Mueller: It's an initiation.
Brian Mueller: Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives looking for something they can't quite name.
Brian Mueller: Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning.
Brian Mueller: Joe, when and where did you make your rites?
Brian Mueller: I made my rites in Minnesota.
Joe Grilliot: I believe it was Sandstone, Osprey Wilds.
Joe Grilliot: Last summer, so a year ago, June 25.
Joe Grilliot: And do you recall who your weaver was and about how many men were at your rites?
Joe Grilliot: The Weaver was Ned Abenroth.
Joe Grilliot: I think for the men that were coming through the rites, it was maybe 30 or so.
Brian Mueller: And when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image or feeling that comes forth for you?
Joe Grilliot: I don't know.
Joe Grilliot: The words that come to mind are holy cow, impressive.
Joe Grilliot: Yeah, how was it impressive?
Joe Grilliot: Well, I didn't exactly know what to expect for one.
Joe Grilliot: Even if I expected something, it was deeper and more connecting.
Joe Grilliot: than what I would have expected.
Joe Grilliot: And it just really shifted my life in ways that I hoped for in certain ways, but I had no idea what that would look like.
Joe Grilliot: So I felt very um excited and anxious going in in a certain way.
Joe Grilliot: But I also have experienced some you could call it shadow work or soul crafting and going out in nature and experiencing like
Joe Grilliot: What nature reflects back and trying to grow through that with deep psychology, you could say.
Brian Mueller: Bill Plotkin, I think, right?
Joe Grilliot: Bill Plotkin.
Joe Grilliot: Yeah, thank you.
Joe Grilliot: So, I've experienced some of that before, but it's been a long time.
Joe Grilliot: I enjoyed being able to deepen into nature time
Brian Mueller: Now, if you were to just tell a casual acquaintance or even a friend, you've had about a year now to kind of reflect on that experience.
Brian Mueller: How would you describe how the weekend went for you?
Brian Mueller: You say it's a good experience?
Joe Grilliot: Oh, yeah.
Joe Grilliot: Yeah.
Joe Grilliot: I would say it's a positive experience.
Joe Grilliot: It's helpful to go with an openness and a willingness to kind of go along for the ride, so to speak.
Joe Grilliot: It definitely was positive.
Joe Grilliot: And I'd say that connecting with others
Joe Grilliot: connecting with self and connecting in a way with higher power were all like, I don't know, like a thread woven through the experience for me.
Joe Grilliot: That was powerful.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, now I want to take you back to the sandstone.
Brian Mueller: Without sharing anything that would be confidential or too personal.
Brian Mueller: Is there a particular memory that you have from the rites?
Brian Mueller: Was it a ritual?
Brian Mueller: Was there an encounter with another man?
Brian Mueller: Was there something that really grabbed you or is that you still remember to this day?
Joe Grilliot: If I can share two, there's two things that stand out.
Joe Grilliot: One, my time in nature solo.
Joe Grilliot: I kept encountering ticks.
Joe Grilliot: Ticks became my teachers, and mosquitoes became my masters.
Joe Grilliot: It's like
Joe Grilliot: I don't think I ever got bitten, and I certainly didn't have a tick attach.
Joe Grilliot: But I kept kind of watching and observing and having fear around being bit.
Joe Grilliot: And I kept flicking them off of I was using a trash bag to kind of keep from getting um wet as I sat on the ground 'cause I was in a kind of damp area.
Joe Grilliot: And I kept flicking ticks off the off the trash bag, off my clothes.
Joe Grilliot: It taught me something about, I don't know, not being paralyzed by my fear and being able to kind of make humor a little bit around the things I was afraid of.
Joe Grilliot: The mosquitoes were pesky, but that's not new to me.
Joe Grilliot: Ohio has a few of those too.
Joe Grilliot: But both of those were kind of my companions while I sat there for that
Joe Grilliot: chunk of afternoon time.
Joe Grilliot: And that was you know, there's pieces you hear me say that are kind of like growth in myself or awareness of those pieces in me and growing through fear in some ways.
Joe Grilliot: The other key point is my partner, when I went into the wilderness, was also the person I was paired with in the first ritual that I joined in the first night.
Joe Grilliot: And I won't go into any detail on that aspect, but just the partnership with that person, we tied together, working with a key point in the ritual.
Joe Grilliot: And so it kind of bonded us because we were brand new and following the instructions and working together and like literally interacting and working together as we
Joe Grilliot: Carried something around and said certain words in tune, like kind of in phrase or whatever.
Joe Grilliot: So we bonded really well.
Joe Grilliot: John and I bonded well, and that was
Joe Grilliot: Powerful too, in a way that it wasn't just like, oh, yeah, the guy I did that thing with at that retreat.
Joe Grilliot: It was really, hey, like, I shared a book with him that was meaningful to me, a Bill Plotkin book.
Joe Grilliot: And I think he appreciated that.
Joe Grilliot: And he shared Bug Spray and gave me a stone that was meaningful to him.
Brian Mueller: Have you been able to keep in touch with John?
Joe Grilliot: Occasionally, yes.
Joe Grilliot: I would like to reach out to him again, but just the kind of depth and the sharing and the heartfelt kindness was very real.
Joe Grilliot: And sometimes men have some difficulty bonding in a vulnerable way with each other.
Joe Grilliot: And there was definitely safety and rapport space to be able to be honest and
Joe Grilliot: kind and be okay sharing together in a less than average male football game experience, more of a safe space, I'll call it.
Brian Mueller: So let me take you back to your decision to register and to attend the Rites.
Brian Mueller: What was going on in your life?
Brian Mueller: What were the circumstances that kind of led you to do the Rites?
Joe Grilliot: I've kind of been in transition in my life for a a chunk of time.
Joe Grilliot: I worked as a Catholic priest for a while and then officially left and did some transition stuff in my last stage of life in Denver.
Joe Grilliot: And then I moved with my wife and family after that all happened to Ohio and grew into farming.
Joe Grilliot: After twenty years off the farm.
Joe Grilliot: So the sort of movement from career, state of life.
Joe Grilliot: to having a family, my wife, and then a year or so later, a COVID son who's an awesome five-year-old energetic kid.
Joe Grilliot: I don't know.
Joe Grilliot: I'd say just the transition from ministry
Joe Grilliot: to no longer single and in family life to like finding work that is going to work, meaningful, financially lucrative.
Joe Grilliot: I could do long term.
Joe Grilliot: So I would say, and then all the spiritual turmoil and the grief and the,
Joe Grilliot: Fears and the anxieties and all that jazz that comes with being in a pretty big life transition.
Joe Grilliot: So that was kind of the ground.
Joe Grilliot: And I'd been in touch with Richard Rohr spiritual books and talks and different things in the past, and even a friend of mine from a kind of support group.
Joe Grilliot: Mitch and he was going to go on rites.
Joe Grilliot: And I think he went to California and made his rites.
Joe Grilliot: And so it got me thinking as he talked about it that he was going to go.
Joe Grilliot: I'm like, well, wait.
Joe Grilliot: Maybe, maybe I could go to one, two.
Joe Grilliot: So that helped give me faking and then planning and seeing if it'd work, and it did work.
Brian Mueller: Now I'm curious how those closest to you responded to when you told them that you were going to attend the rites.
Brian Mueller: I'm thinking of your wife.
Brian Mueller: I know that you moved back to Ohio, so you're closer to family.
Brian Mueller: So maybe you told your father.
Brian Mueller: And even that friend who went on the rites when you told him, how did those people react?
Joe Grilliot: I kind of probably, in a way, watered it down what it was.
Joe Grilliot: I had a good sense that it was more than just quote a retreat, but I called it a men's retreat.
Joe Grilliot: And I may have even framed it as something with good for me to kind of take space to work through some transitions or
Joe Grilliot: Self-care or something like that.
Joe Grilliot: They they reacted positively, and it might have helped because I was
Joe Grilliot: in a spiritual journey, working in churches and things like that before.
Joe Grilliot: So like for me to do a retreat was not like a big deal.
Joe Grilliot: It wasn't new news.
Joe Grilliot: And I don't know that I really went into much depth afterwards.
Joe Grilliot: about the experience, but they were they were receptive.
Brian Mueller: I'm really kind of curious.
Brian Mueller: I really haven't asked this before, but we don't often talk about rites of passage in our society.
Brian Mueller: What did anyone go, what
Brian Mueller: What's a rites of passage or why would you do that at this stage of your life?
Joe Grilliot: Yeah, I don't think I I may have mentioned the term, but I
Joe Grilliot: The people I would have told probably knew my story reasonably well and probably didn't ask further about it.
Joe Grilliot: I may have explained to one or two sort of like more like friends or acquaintances that were maybe don't know my whole story or were more open to knowing more of what could that be as a kind of men's
Joe Grilliot: Deepening experience.
Joe Grilliot: I might have explained that a little bit.
Joe Grilliot: And I do think my second youngest sister, I explained a little more what a men's rites of passage might mean in terms of kind of
Joe Grilliot: Coming through a sort of ritual and coming from, or I think I framed it too as like, okay, boys becoming going through this rite of passage and becoming men.
Joe Grilliot: is kind of the traditional pattern and see Native American or other sort of traditional cultures like that.
Joe Grilliot: And of course, supposedly I'm a man or was a man.
Joe Grilliot: But you know, there's lots of parts of me that you know remain growing up still in a certain way.
Joe Grilliot: And so there's always like this trajectory of growth that's not just like
Joe Grilliot: Boom.
Joe Grilliot: But I I probably explained briefly, like we don't have a quote rites of passage for men or boys here.
Joe Grilliot: generally as our culture.
Joe Grilliot: So to make an intentional transition and growth into adulthood, into true manhood, like was attractive to me
Joe Grilliot: And there was probably few people that I actually mentioned that to you.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, the reason I asked in just as I was asking you the question, I go, I've been swimming in the Illuman waters for over a decade, and so rites of passage has become very
Brian Mueller: normal, you know, thing for me.
Brian Mueller: But I I still forget how kind of unusual it is in our culture and society for anybody to hear that word.
Brian Mueller: So thank you.
Brian Mueller: I've had the good fortune of going to Minnesota and going to the Osprey Wilds, the center up there in Sandstone for a retreat.
Brian Mueller: I've not been there for rites of passage, but I want to take you back to the day that you arrived.
Brian Mueller: You know, I imagine you either drove up or you you flew in.
Brian Mueller: I'm not sure.
Brian Mueller: Did you did you come alone to the to the rites or did you come in a carpool?
Joe Grilliot: I flew to Minneapolis airport.
Joe Grilliot: And then a local person picked me up and trying to think if there was another person.
Joe Grilliot: I think it was somebody picked me up and we rode together then from the airport to Osprey Wilds.
Brian Mueller: So you came with other men.
Brian Mueller: And then so I'm just what I'm after here is, you know, how are you feeling as you got nearer to Sandstone and even pulled into the Osprey Wilds there and, you know, were about to begin the rites?
Joe Grilliot: I remember the smell of sage.
Joe Grilliot: They were sort of incensing, smudging as we rolled in, and it had a kind of mysterious flair to it.
Joe Grilliot: It wasn't too weird to me because I've kind of been around unique sort of spiritual or different kinds of spiritual sort of things.
Joe Grilliot: But it did have a bit of a
Joe Grilliot: I don't know, the guy and I who were riding together, we both have church leadership experience, so we kind of knew it's kind of moving into a different kind of space, a liminal space, and trying to create a space where
Joe Grilliot: magic, transformation, healing, growth can all happen in its in its way.
Joe Grilliot: So I'm sure I was excited
Joe Grilliot: a bit anxious and in that kind of whatever that you feel when it's like, what's that strange, sort of mysterious thing going on?
Joe Grilliot: That's what I remember feeling.
Joe Grilliot: Was there something as you embarked on the rites that you were hoping to be initiated into?
Joe Grilliot: I mean, I think the only thing that I almost didn't dare even expect
Joe Grilliot: That in some ways was helpful was, and I won't go into great detail because it's very personal, but like healthy relational and healthy sexuality was something that
Joe Grilliot: I had always hoped for and strove to grow into and struggled with.
Joe Grilliot: So I almost had so many struggles that I wouldn't even, quote, ask God for help.
Joe Grilliot: That was one area where I did intentionally ask for help, so to speak, through some of the rites, and it wasn't like at all
Joe Grilliot: Expected, prompted, or demanded.
Joe Grilliot: It was self just in a way asking God's help in that area of my life.
Joe Grilliot: And as I went
Joe Grilliot: forward after the experience, I experienced a lot of relief and growth into a healthier way of living that I really didn't expect.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, thank you for that.
Brian Mueller: I appreciate your vulnerability there.
Brian Mueller: And I'm going to ask you, did any fears or any anxiety rise to the surface as you went through the Wrights experience?
Joe Grilliot: Yeah.
Joe Grilliot: I'm a person who could have fear exhaustively at times.
Joe Grilliot: And certainly different kinds of fears or different kinds of anxiety rose in different ways as I went through the experience.
Joe Grilliot: tick I already named kind of the am I going to get bit by a tick and get some kind of extended disease?
Joe Grilliot: What are the people going to be like in this experience or that?
Joe Grilliot: Or there were invitations to kind of rituals or things that just were not familiar to me.
Joe Grilliot: And so that can be a little bit like raise anxiety about not knowing.
Joe Grilliot: Those all seemed worth it compared to the if life is always so safe, like if my routines are too strong, if I'm always working the same job, doing the same routine, and always the same people in the same way.
Joe Grilliot: life gets very um stuck for me.
Joe Grilliot: So that's how I put it in context that it was worth well worth kind of living through those fears.
Joe Grilliot: And even in my monotonous life, if I'm
Joe Grilliot: doing all the boring things.
Joe Grilliot: Like there's still fears, there's still anxiety.
Joe Grilliot: It's it's it's well worth the moments of discomfort for the connections and encouragement, depth.
Joe Grilliot: And even joy and laughter and humor along the way.
Joe Grilliot: I feel like when fear and anxiety are
Joe Grilliot: present and sort of accepted in a certain way, it allows other emotions then to come around as well.
Joe Grilliot: If it's if I'm not stuffing all that down, it kind of releases
Joe Grilliot: in a free way, all the whole spectrum of emotion.
Brian Mueller: And so you survive the experience.
Brian Mueller: You make it through to Sunday.
Brian Mueller: You avoid any tick bites.
Brian Mueller: It's time to get back into the car and and head to Minneapolis to catch flight.
Brian Mueller: How are you feeling immediately after as you kind of pulled away from the Osprey Wilds?
Joe Grilliot: In a certain way, kind of effusive, almost like floating, but not because I was really, really rounded.
Joe Grilliot: Like I was much more present in my body, relaxed.
Joe Grilliot: I guess more in tune with my better, higher self, with God, with knowing I was connected, especially with my
Joe Grilliot: Quote, small group or council.
Joe Grilliot: So I guess feeling more connected, more embodied, and more rooted with higher power as well.
Joe Grilliot: Having more energy and being sort of more joyful and more emotionally connected, all of that together.
Joe Grilliot: Sometimes I've had spiritual experiences in the past that are powerful.
Joe Grilliot: But if I'm not grounded in my body too, I can feel really, really floaty.
Joe Grilliot: So it feels good and it's a positive thing, but it's also like almost like.
Joe Grilliot: Not quite in reality, or not quite grounded.
Joe Grilliot: So I felt really effusive, I think, is the best term.
Joe Grilliot: And it wasn't the floaty kind.
Joe Grilliot: It was more maybe a little floaty, but it was a lot more grounded in a way that I feel was healthy and whole and
Joe Grilliot: powerful.
Joe Grilliot: I did feel some ang discomfort or anxiety in the, oh man, we're leaving.
Joe Grilliot: Like this was awesome.
Joe Grilliot: Let's stay here.
Brian Mueller: I've talked to a lot of men who have been many years since they've made their rites.
Brian Mueller: It could be 20 or more years.
Brian Mueller: It could be 10.
Brian Mueller: It could be even five.
Brian Mueller: So your rites are much more recent.
Brian Mueller: And that's actually one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you.
Brian Mueller: But
Brian Mueller: It's been about a year since you made your rites, and I am curious to know what impact those rites have had on you in this past year.
Brian Mueller: What's changed in your life since making your rites?
Joe Grilliot: I think the first thing that was especially apparent and especially desirable for me was the growth of my sexuality and the healing in that aspect of my life.
Joe Grilliot: And strictly speaking, it was about two months that that was really, really present.
Joe Grilliot: I think there's still aspects of that present to today, but it's less strictly speaking
Joe Grilliot: sort of like a complete healing, you could say.
Joe Grilliot: But I'm still like very much in a more wholesome, healthy, and more self-accepting kind of space in that particular area.
Joe Grilliot: So that's different.
Joe Grilliot: I do feel like the practice of connecting with more Illuman groups and more men who have experienced the rites
Joe Grilliot: is helpful.
Joe Grilliot: Like I kind of miss that, frankly.
Joe Grilliot: I've had moments where I've connected and moments where it's been in between, but I definitely feel like
Joe Grilliot: to be able to kind of continue the work of the rice, to continue the growing, to stay connected with the, in a way, the gold, the gifts that came through the experience.
Joe Grilliot: it happened in a sense of, and a community is how it happened, and a community is how it's kind of sustained in a certain way, I think, too.
Joe Grilliot: So, being able to continue to be part of a kind of spiritual community, being able to keep connecting with men in deeper ways.
Joe Grilliot: And I've found that a bit of a challenge.
Joe Grilliot: Being back home where I grew up, away for 20 years, and coming back down home, it's like folks kind of have their relationships that they want.
Joe Grilliot: And from ages past.
Joe Grilliot: And so it's a little hard here to break back into like friendship groups and things like that.
Joe Grilliot: So I do kind of
Joe Grilliot: Have some lament.
Joe Grilliot: I do miss some friendships from both my other parts of my life in different places and from Emra.
Joe Grilliot: Although we do connect occasionally with a couple of guys that are nearby from Indiana that went to the same rides I did and we didn't know each other before that.
Joe Grilliot: So I do cherish those moments when we get together for a meal or something.
Joe Grilliot: Have your conversations and relationships been impacted by the rites?
Joe Grilliot: I'm sure they have.
Joe Grilliot: Sometimes it's hard to see exactly how because
Brian Mueller: You know, some men talk about how the rites expanded their ideas of fraternity and having relationships with other men.
Brian Mueller: And I'm certainly, I hope you've experienced in the Illuman community that there's a real ability to
Brian Mueller: speak vulnerably, speak even about your emotions, speak in a lot of depth about a lot of subjects.
Brian Mueller: Maybe you're experiencing that even in some of your relationships outside of Illuman.
Joe Grilliot: I don't know.
Joe Grilliot: Yeah, I certainly can go there.
Joe Grilliot: I mean, definitely when I connect with folks who have experienced the Illuman or in a gathering of folks
Joe Grilliot: From a Illuman, it's definitely opens up that kind of rapport and safe space where men and I can be vulnerable.
Joe Grilliot: And I guess there are moments where
Joe Grilliot: I mean, I have to kind of I have trouble distinguishing because I'm kind of trained in a way from the priesthood ministry and almost spiritual counseling bit to have to build some of that safe space anyway.
Joe Grilliot: So I don't I have trouble connecting which part is kind of what I learned before and which part kind of came with MROP.
Joe Grilliot: And frankly, it doesn't matter.
Joe Grilliot: I'm sure that my capacity for responding and holding space for others and being present, especially with men in ways that's
Joe Grilliot: say say less than common has expanded for sure from that retreat - from that MROP experience.
Joe Grilliot: I wish I could like pull out of the air and remember like, well, this experience is clearly that.
Brian Mueller: After experiencing the Rites, has your understanding of masculinity, initiation, even the male purpose changed at all?
Joe Grilliot: Perhaps I have a little more positive view of masculinity.
Joe Grilliot: I guess the stereotypical male that maybe has it really grown into a mature elder kind of person
Joe Grilliot: Is sort of the classic and average American or average person in my society.
Joe Grilliot: So I often kind of view male
Joe Grilliot: Examples as weak and kind of lame, or grumpy old men, or just really jaded.
Joe Grilliot: And not everybody's there, but the examples of men who really own
Joe Grilliot: Who they are, who are able to stand up for the people they care about, who are able to be, who can cry, and that's healthy and great.
Joe Grilliot: who support others in ways that are generous and sacrificing and kind.
Joe Grilliot: There are those, but it feels like less common and even sometimes rare.
Joe Grilliot: Certainly, there's moments that I see from my father or sometimes from a priest that I looked up to when I was younger.
Joe Grilliot: I've seen moments of that.
Joe Grilliot: So I guess my sense of having a more I guess a more in fleshed sense of the positive masculine, mature masculine.
Joe Grilliot: in male examples is more real.
Joe Grilliot: Rather than going, I don't want that, I don't want to be that.
Joe Grilliot: Maybe I have a little more sense of like, oh, well
Joe Grilliot: I hope to be kind of like that.
Joe Grilliot: Kind of the kind, the accepting the mature, elder.
Joe Grilliot: wise and humorous, like able to kind of go, Oh, didn't go the way I planned, and it seems to be good or good enough.
Joe Grilliot: that kind of when I see that kind of mentality that's just really healthy and heartwarming.
Brian Mueller: No, I appreciate you your answer there.
Brian Mueller: It really made me it brought home some things to me, especially when you started talking about
Brian Mueller: Seeing some of these elements of transformation in your father and in maybe a priest that you had looked up to at other points in your life.
Brian Mueller: So, what I'm
Brian Mueller: I'm thinking is that you're seeing some generativity.
Brian Mueller: You're seeing some of those aspects of the rites, the transformational aspects that we all hope to encounter and grow into.
Brian Mueller: So I guess what I'm getting at here is you have a five-year-old son.
Brian Mueller: He's still very young.
Brian Mueller: But how do you think the rites have impacted you as a father?
Brian Mueller: And how you will relate to him?
Brian Mueller: raising a son in this world and this culture.
Joe Grilliot: It hits really close to home.
Joe Grilliot: In some ways, my father could express anger in a very explicit way.
Joe Grilliot: Frequently working with pigs on the farm, like, gosh dang, son-of-a-brick, like, like whatever you could imagine came out.
Joe Grilliot: And that anger and his expression of it affected me.
Joe Grilliot: And I see my behavior at times with my son, even yelling directly at him, I'm not content with that.
Joe Grilliot: I'm not okay with that.
Joe Grilliot: And so it's a live edge for me growing into learning to manage my emotions and, in particular, my anger in a way as I
Joe Grilliot: help my son grow into being older and maturing, growing through the phases of childhood.
Joe Grilliot: And so it's a it's a live edge that I'm still learning how to do it.
Joe Grilliot: And maybe that I can see it and express it and name it without just avoiding and knocking out the shame on it and ignoring the shame on it.
Joe Grilliot: That might be a result of MROP for me.
Joe Grilliot: I hope that it also I think it does offer me some tools as well that I can utilize and people that I can draw on for their wisdom.
Joe Grilliot: Getting better at this partial life by being father to a really sweet and energetic five-year-old
Joe Grilliot: He just, he's such a gift.
Joe Grilliot: And a lot of people around here enjoy him, even if they're just acquaintances.
Joe Grilliot: They're like, oh, your boy's so cute.
Brian Mueller: That's wonderful.
Brian Mueller: But now that you've experienced the rites as you enter the middle part of your life, do you have any sense that you'll be looking for youth rites, adolescent rites for your son?
Joe Grilliot: That's an excellent question.
Joe Grilliot: I hadn't realized or hadn't thought much about that.
Joe Grilliot: He's five and going to enter kindergarten and
Joe Grilliot: Yeah, I would love to support him in experiencing that.
Joe Grilliot: I think if I were tuned in as a teenager, whatever age youth rites would be, I think it could only help me.
Joe Grilliot: So, I would definitely support my son and being able to experience that.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, I think that's something that many men within Illuman have sort of this growing awareness of, especially those with sons.
Brian Mueller: My experience over the years is a lot of them go to the rites.
Brian Mueller: And then they immediately want this either for the other men in their community or for their sons, regardless of what age they are, and endeavor to create those rites or bring them back home.
Brian Mueller: You know, I'd like to really emphasize how big of a tent Illuman is.
Brian Mueller: You know, we do have our roots in the work of Father Richard Rohr, who's a Franciscan priest.
Brian Mueller: He wrote the books Adam's Return, and he did a lot of research on rites throughout the world.
Brian Mueller: And he's well traveled.
Brian Mueller: I spent a lot of time in other countries, including Africa, I know, some time in Asia.
Brian Mueller: So he's been around and he understands.
Brian Mueller: The rites very broadly.
Brian Mueller: And the reason I say all this is because, you know, there's a lot of men that identify as Christian within Illuman, and that aspect is there.
Brian Mueller: But you don't have to be Christian to participate in the men's rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: So I want to know everybody will be welcome.
Brian Mueller: You know, you may have to, you know, gauge your own sensitivities or comfortability around Christian traditions, especially people that have been harmed.
Brian Mueller: By their faith and their backgrounds.
Brian Mueller: So, this is just a long way of kind of winding up to the fact that there are a lot of men like you, Joe, who come from clerical backgrounds, pastors, priests.
Brian Mueller: Other teachers.
Brian Mueller: Some are still active in those ministries.
Brian Mueller: You've left the priesthood.
Brian Mueller: And your story is especially resonant for me because my father, too, was a Catholic priest and left the priesthood.
Brian Mueller: And I know in some ways you never leave the priesthood, right?
Brian Mueller: I mean, it's a very formative experience in your life.
Brian Mueller: It's a peculiar vocation and calling.
Brian Mueller: I just want to know, you know, a little bit about your experience or what did being a priest and spending some time as a Catholic priest?
Brian Mueller: How did that contribute to your involvement in the rites?
Brian Mueller: Or how did that impact your involvement in the rites?
Brian Mueller: How did that influence your has that influenced your ideas of community and spiritual work?
Brian Mueller: Lots there.
Brian Mueller: I know there's a lot there.
Joe Grilliot: Yeah.
Joe Grilliot: I guess the background and experiences of ritual in the past or having some background knowledge of how like ritual works.
Joe Grilliot: Victor Turner, I think, was
Joe Grilliot: Who a person who names some of the steps in kind of like a rites of passage or can even be sacramentality.
Joe Grilliot: But anyway, I'm going technical.
Joe Grilliot: I'd rather say I think it helped me
Joe Grilliot: Have some background spiritually and some background to have some comfort level.
Joe Grilliot: And it probably was unlearning just this much.
Joe Grilliot: Like, it's sort of like
Joe Grilliot: I could get attached to the specific Catholic prayers that confect the Eucharist or something.
Joe Grilliot: And God's so much wider than just those particular words, so to speak.
Joe Grilliot: I'm not trying to desecrate or say anything bad about particular Christian words or particular Christian rites, but God can be in anything.
Joe Grilliot: And in the moment, we can experience something of divine or
Joe Grilliot: Grace or love or whatever from many different angles, whether it's in church or in nature or in a council group or anything.
Joe Grilliot: Yes, it had an impact.
Joe Grilliot: it feels so like tied into everything that I have trouble like kind of grasping at at something.
Joe Grilliot: I can say that my experience now is like I still attend church and I'm Episcopalian, so kind of um Catholic light, if you will.
Joe Grilliot: So there's still a good amount of ritual in sacramentality, but it's also like a little wider sphere and a little lower church in some level.
Joe Grilliot: And my sense of the God I used to believe in has changed a lot too.
Joe Grilliot: So I don't I'm not so certain about
Joe Grilliot: the exact character of God and have God's finger in my life at every moment.
Joe Grilliot: And yet I still attend church, I still serve and assist in some ways, not as a priest.
Joe Grilliot: And I'm I still enjoy that kind of spiritual community.
Joe Grilliot: And, you know, if God decides somehow to put his finger or her finger or its finger or twiddle around in the mystery of my life experience, I'm open to that.
Joe Grilliot: I just don't necessarily expect it.
Joe Grilliot: In my particulars, like I used to.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, thank you for that.
Brian Mueller: I do want to emphasize, too, for our listeners that you and I particularly come from a Catholic background originally, but
Brian Mueller: I also want people to know that that's not everybody that they'll encounter within Illuman comes from a Catholic background.
Brian Mueller: It's certainly wider than that.
Brian Mueller: And some of that might be just influenced by region, where you're from.
Brian Mueller: You know, people tend to cluster, certain faiths cluster in certain areas.
Brian Mueller: But I'm so excited because I'm going to the Illinois Rites of Passage in a couple of weeks.
Brian Mueller: And there will be two Catholic priests there.
Brian Mueller: There'll be Jim Clark, who will be the Weaver, and he's coming in from California.
Brian Mueller: And Jim Clarke, I believe, is a Diocesan priest.
Brian Mueller: He taught at a seminary for many years.
Brian Mueller: He's retired now out in Southern California.
Brian Mueller: And then we have Bob Colaresi, who's a Carmelite priest in suburban Chicago.
Brian Mueller: And he's really the one that had had he made his rites like you did at Sandstone.
Brian Mueller: And then in, I think, 2008 and then he or 2006, I think, actually, and then he brought the rites to Illinois.
Brian Mueller: And so he was very instrumental in creating that experience for men there.
Brian Mueller: So really beautiful men who spent their life dedicated to the priesthood, but have also become very generative in their work and their understanding of spirituality.
Brian Mueller: Exciting.
Brian Mueller: So my last question to you.
Brian Mueller: I'm offering a lot of context, but I really want our listeners to kind of understand some of the background here.
Brian Mueller: So what advice would you give, Joe, to a man who's considering deliberating whether or not to register from the rites?
Brian Mueller: And maybe you can talk to somebody, too, that comes from a religious background.
Joe Grilliot: Yeah, um, go.
Joe Grilliot: And yes, there's fears, or yes, there's discomfort, and yes.
Joe Grilliot: It's worth it to make the sacrifice, like to take time away, to make space, to be open to some healing.
Joe Grilliot: Because I don't know, I think we all have some brokenness or some.
Joe Grilliot: Grief or parts of ourselves that are not finished yet.
Joe Grilliot: And I feel like this kind of setup is really the space where a person can a man
Joe Grilliot: can grow through those boy parts of self to into more manly, healthy, mature living and kind of heal and enjoy the process if we're willing.
Joe Grilliot: So, yeah, take the risk.
Joe Grilliot: Don't be afraid.
Joe Grilliot: Or don't get stuck in paralysis with fear.
Joe Grilliot: Take the steps and do it.
Joe Grilliot: It's well worth it.
Joe Grilliot: And
Joe Grilliot: I think just the thought about the accessibility, especially for folks who maybe don't have any religious background or have had harmed experiences
Joe Grilliot: I feel like the symbols are earthy in a way and connected with the roots.
Joe Grilliot: Like you spoke about Richard Rohr's research into the rites of passage in different cultures and societies.
Joe Grilliot: So I think that you're archetypal in a way that everybody can get it.
Joe Grilliot: You kind of get it in your gut.
Joe Grilliot: So don't feel like you got to come with like
Joe Grilliot: bread and wine or whatever kind of background thinking or the specific scripture Bible that speaks to salvation, like there's room for
Joe Grilliot: a broad span to like know experience and come forward in a way that's meaningful.
Brian Mueller: Joe, I love doing these conversations because I always learn something.
Brian Mueller: And you shared some things today that I think were very provocative.
Brian Mueller: And
Brian Mueller: I'll take with me here.
Brian Mueller: Is there anything else that you'd like to say before we wrap up?
Joe Grilliot: I feel grateful for the opportunity to speak and share a bit of my experience.
Joe Grilliot: It helps me recall and kind of
Joe Grilliot: come back into some of those pieces from MROP that you know they might have gotten a little rusty or they were there but kind of on the back burner
Joe Grilliot: So it helps my experience to be here and kind of bring it forth.
Joe Grilliot: And so I'm just really grateful and hopeful.
Joe Grilliot: Having a chance to invite my son to something like this should the when the time arises is huge.
Brian Mueller: Absolutely.
Brian Mueller: It's been a real pleasure getting to know you.
Brian Mueller: You came to our writing retreat.
Brian Mueller: You actually only probably live, what, about an hour or so north of me in Dayton.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, you're on those glacial plains that were so fertile where there's a lot of corn and soy and things growing.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, it - it feels like a long way away, but it's really not that far.
Brian Mueller: You showed up at our writing retreat this past January, and I hope you're considering being part of that again this coming year.
Brian Mueller: You've been getting more and more involved with the Illuman Community.
Brian Mueller: So I thank you so much for your time and taking time out of your day.
Brian Mueller: Like I said, it's a beautiful day, and you could probably be out in the fields or out somewhere on the land doing some good work.
Brian Mueller: You've chosen to spend some time with me, so thank you so much.
Brian Mueller: And I want to say I love you, brother, and I look forward to seeing you soon.
Joe Grilliot: Thank you.
Joe Grilliot: I love you too, brother.
Brian Mueller: For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites.
Brian Mueller: The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr.
Brian Mueller: and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six.
Brian Mueller: While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since twenty twelve Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world.
Brian Mueller: To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return by Richard Rohr.
Brian Mueller: If you are ready to make your rites, you can find details and registration information at Illuman dot
Brian Mueller: org slash mrop
Brian Mueller: or Illuman dot org slash events.
Brian Mueller: Finally, if you enjoyed this podcast, don't forget to share it with a friend.
Brian Mueller: You can find all our episodes and subscribe in your favorite podcast app at MROP talk dot com.
Brian Mueller: And you can visit me at Brians Poems dot com or Brian Mueller dot
Brian Mueller: com.
Brian Mueller: Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP
Brian Mueller: Until next time, brothers, stay present.