WEBVTT 00:00:03.840 --> 00:00:12.160 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:11.500 --> 00:00:12.940 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:12.940 --> 00:00:18.300 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.300 --> 00:00:24.939 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:24.460 --> 00:00:33.900 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterwards. 00:00:33.440 --> 00:00:43.120 This podcast is truly a labor of love, inspired by my own transformative experience at the men's rites of passage and my ongoing commitment to the Illuman Community. 00:00:42.460 --> 00:00:49.340 If this show resonates with you, please take a moment to rate, review, and share it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. 00:00:49.340 --> 00:00:52.780 You can find all of those links at mrop talk dot 00:00:53.020 --> 00:00:53.180 com 00:00:53.300 --> 00:00:57.620 To support my work, you can explore my published poetry volumes at Brian Mueller dot 00:00:57.700 --> 00:00:58.260 com. 00:00:58.260 --> 00:01:03.220 I also work closely with men and Illuman to share and teach the practice of presence. 00:01:02.460 --> 00:01:05.019 You can learn more about that at choosing presence dot 00:01:05.100 --> 00:01:05.420 org. 00:01:05.420 --> 00:01:15.740 Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. 00:01:15.060 --> 00:01:17.620 On this show we just don't talk about the rites in theory. 00:01:17.620 --> 00:01:19.700 We talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:01:19.700 --> 00:01:23.220 Today I'm joined by a man who has made us rites, and we're going to hear 00:01:23.240 --> 00:01:25.800 Exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:01:32.960 --> 00:01:34.800 My guest today is Joe Grilliot. 00:01:34.800 --> 00:01:36.080 Brother, I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:36.080 --> 00:01:39.040 Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. 00:01:39.040 --> 00:01:39.760 Thank you. 00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:40.960 Thanks for asking me. 00:01:40.960 --> 00:01:44.320 Joe, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:01:43.939 --> 00:01:49.140 I'm from small Versailles, Ohio, out in the cornfields, and I farm. 00:01:49.140 --> 00:01:54.259 So raising corn and soybeans and growing food for animals mostly. 00:01:53.700 --> 00:01:56.659 Well now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. 00:01:56.659 --> 00:01:58.500 The MROP is a unique experience. 00:01:58.500 --> 00:02:00.020 It's not a retreat or a workshop. 00:02:00.020 --> 00:02:01.060 It's an initiation. 00:02:01.060 --> 00:02:05.299 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives looking for something they can't quite name. 00:02:05.299 --> 00:02:08.420 Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. 00:02:07.900 --> 00:02:11.420 Joe, when and where did you make your rites? 00:02:11.420 --> 00:02:13.500 I made my rites in Minnesota. 00:02:13.500 --> 00:02:17.500 I believe it was Sandstone, Osprey Wilds. 00:02:17.220 --> 00:02:21.860 Last summer, so a year ago, June 25. 00:02:21.860 --> 00:02:25.860 And do you recall who your weaver was and about how many men were at your rites? 00:02:25.260 --> 00:02:27.580 The Weaver was Ned Abenroth. 00:02:27.580 --> 00:02:33.740 I think for the men that were coming through the rites, it was maybe 30 or so. 00:02:33.760 --> 00:02:38.560 And when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image or feeling that comes forth for you? 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:39.040 I don't know. 00:02:39.040 --> 00:02:42.560 The words that come to mind are holy cow, impressive. 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:43.840 Yeah, how was it impressive? 00:02:44.239 --> 00:02:47.680 Well, I didn't exactly know what to expect for one. 00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:53.280 Even if I expected something, it was deeper and more connecting. 00:02:52.860 --> 00:02:54.860 than what I would have expected. 00:02:54.860 --> 00:03:03.900 And it just really shifted my life in ways that I hoped for in certain ways, but I had no idea what that would look like. 00:03:03.320 --> 00:03:08.680 So I felt very um excited and anxious going in in a certain way. 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:17.080 But I also have experienced some you could call it shadow work or soul crafting and going out in nature and experiencing like 00:03:17.420 --> 00:03:21.980 What nature reflects back and trying to grow through that with deep psychology, you could say. 00:03:21.980 --> 00:03:24.940 Bill Plotkin, I think, right? 00:03:24.940 --> 00:03:25.900 Bill Plotkin. 00:03:25.900 --> 00:03:27.660 Yeah, thank you. 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:31.760 So, I've experienced some of that before, but it's been a long time. 00:03:31.760 --> 00:03:35.360 I enjoyed being able to deepen into nature time 00:03:36.040 --> 00:03:43.240 Now, if you were to just tell a casual acquaintance or even a friend, you've had about a year now to kind of reflect on that experience. 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:45.320 How would you describe how the weekend went for you? 00:03:45.320 --> 00:03:46.920 You say it's a good experience? 00:03:46.920 --> 00:03:47.560 Oh, yeah. 00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:48.040 Yeah. 00:03:48.740 --> 00:03:51.140 I would say it's a positive experience. 00:03:51.140 --> 00:03:57.860 It's helpful to go with an openness and a willingness to kind of go along for the ride, so to speak. 00:03:57.860 --> 00:03:59.300 It definitely was positive. 00:03:59.300 --> 00:04:01.620 And I'd say that connecting with others 00:04:01.920 --> 00:04:10.640 connecting with self and connecting in a way with higher power were all like, I don't know, like a thread woven through the experience for me. 00:04:10.640 --> 00:04:12.480 That was powerful. 00:04:12.140 --> 00:04:15.099 Yeah, now I want to take you back to the sandstone. 00:04:15.099 --> 00:04:20.540 Without sharing anything that would be confidential or too personal. 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:22.560 Is there a particular memory that you have from the rites? 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:23.360 Was it a ritual? 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:25.120 Was there an encounter with another man? 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:28.960 Was there something that really grabbed you or is that you still remember to this day? 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:32.800 If I can share two, there's two things that stand out. 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:35.600 One, my time in nature solo. 00:04:35.919 --> 00:04:38.000 I kept encountering ticks. 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:42.160 Ticks became my teachers, and mosquitoes became my masters. 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:42.960 It's like 00:04:43.420 --> 00:04:48.700 I don't think I ever got bitten, and I certainly didn't have a tick attach. 00:04:48.700 --> 00:04:53.660 But I kept kind of watching and observing and having fear around being bit. 00:04:53.360 --> 00:05:02.880 And I kept flicking them off of I was using a trash bag to kind of keep from getting um wet as I sat on the ground 'cause I was in a kind of damp area. 00:05:02.880 --> 00:05:07.920 And I kept flicking ticks off the off the trash bag, off my clothes. 00:05:07.720 --> 00:05:18.919 It taught me something about, I don't know, not being paralyzed by my fear and being able to kind of make humor a little bit around the things I was afraid of. 00:05:18.360 --> 00:05:21.560 The mosquitoes were pesky, but that's not new to me. 00:05:21.880 --> 00:05:24.200 Ohio has a few of those too. 00:05:24.200 --> 00:05:28.760 But both of those were kind of my companions while I sat there for that 00:05:29.039 --> 00:05:30.879 chunk of afternoon time. 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:40.960 And that was you know, there's pieces you hear me say that are kind of like growth in myself or awareness of those pieces in me and growing through fear in some ways. 00:05:40.440 --> 00:05:52.680 The other key point is my partner, when I went into the wilderness, was also the person I was paired with in the first ritual that I joined in the first night. 00:05:52.139 --> 00:06:02.460 And I won't go into any detail on that aspect, but just the partnership with that person, we tied together, working with a key point in the ritual. 00:06:01.840 --> 00:06:10.640 And so it kind of bonded us because we were brand new and following the instructions and working together and like literally interacting and working together as we 00:06:11.039 --> 00:06:17.840 Carried something around and said certain words in tune, like kind of in phrase or whatever. 00:06:18.080 --> 00:06:19.360 So we bonded really well. 00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:21.680 John and I bonded well, and that was 00:06:22.400 --> 00:06:29.120 Powerful too, in a way that it wasn't just like, oh, yeah, the guy I did that thing with at that retreat. 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:35.760 It was really, hey, like, I shared a book with him that was meaningful to me, a Bill Plotkin book. 00:06:35.440 --> 00:06:37.280 And I think he appreciated that. 00:06:37.280 --> 00:06:41.920 And he shared Bug Spray and gave me a stone that was meaningful to him. 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:43.840 Have you been able to keep in touch with John? 00:06:43.840 --> 00:06:45.760 Occasionally, yes. 00:06:45.660 --> 00:06:53.740 I would like to reach out to him again, but just the kind of depth and the sharing and the heartfelt kindness was very real. 00:06:53.940 --> 00:06:59.860 And sometimes men have some difficulty bonding in a vulnerable way with each other. 00:06:59.860 --> 00:07:05.220 And there was definitely safety and rapport space to be able to be honest and 00:07:05.620 --> 00:07:16.819 kind and be okay sharing together in a less than average male football game experience, more of a safe space, I'll call it. 00:07:16.340 --> 00:07:20.580 So let me take you back to your decision to register and to attend the Rites. 00:07:20.580 --> 00:07:21.620 What was going on in your life? 00:07:21.620 --> 00:07:25.700 What were the circumstances that kind of led you to do the Rites? 00:07:25.160 --> 00:07:29.560 I've kind of been in transition in my life for a a chunk of time. 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:39.720 I worked as a Catholic priest for a while and then officially left and did some transition stuff in my last stage of life in Denver. 00:07:39.520 --> 00:07:48.800 And then I moved with my wife and family after that all happened to Ohio and grew into farming. 00:07:48.420 --> 00:07:50.900 After twenty years off the farm. 00:07:50.900 --> 00:07:56.740 So the sort of movement from career, state of life. 00:07:56.539 --> 00:08:04.539 to having a family, my wife, and then a year or so later, a COVID son who's an awesome five-year-old energetic kid. 00:08:04.539 --> 00:08:05.099 I don't know. 00:08:05.099 --> 00:08:09.099 I'd say just the transition from ministry 00:08:09.980 --> 00:08:20.380 to no longer single and in family life to like finding work that is going to work, meaningful, financially lucrative. 00:08:20.039 --> 00:08:22.280 I could do long term. 00:08:22.599 --> 00:08:27.400 So I would say, and then all the spiritual turmoil and the grief and the, 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:33.320 Fears and the anxieties and all that jazz that comes with being in a pretty big life transition. 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:36.039 So that was kind of the ground. 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:46.480 And I'd been in touch with Richard Rohr spiritual books and talks and different things in the past, and even a friend of mine from a kind of support group. 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:48.279 Mitch and he was going to go on rites. 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:52.040 And I think he went to California and made his rites. 00:08:52.040 --> 00:08:55.959 And so it got me thinking as he talked about it that he was going to go. 00:08:55.959 --> 00:08:57.640 I'm like, well, wait. 00:08:57.320 --> 00:08:59.480 Maybe, maybe I could go to one, two. 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:05.880 So that helped give me faking and then planning and seeing if it'd work, and it did work. 00:09:05.060 --> 00:09:10.820 Now I'm curious how those closest to you responded to when you told them that you were going to attend the rites. 00:09:10.820 --> 00:09:12.100 I'm thinking of your wife. 00:09:12.100 --> 00:09:15.140 I know that you moved back to Ohio, so you're closer to family. 00:09:15.140 --> 00:09:17.060 So maybe you told your father. 00:09:16.500 --> 00:09:20.180 And even that friend who went on the rites when you told him, how did those people react? 00:09:20.660 --> 00:09:25.460 I kind of probably, in a way, watered it down what it was. 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:31.760 I had a good sense that it was more than just quote a retreat, but I called it a men's retreat. 00:09:31.760 --> 00:09:39.280 And I may have even framed it as something with good for me to kind of take space to work through some transitions or 00:09:40.140 --> 00:09:43.340 Self-care or something like that. 00:09:43.340 --> 00:09:48.140 They they reacted positively, and it might have helped because I was 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:52.480 in a spiritual journey, working in churches and things like that before. 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.480 So like for me to do a retreat was not like a big deal. 00:09:56.480 --> 00:09:58.080 It wasn't new news. 00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:02.720 And I don't know that I really went into much depth afterwards. 00:10:02.680 --> 00:10:06.120 about the experience, but they were they were receptive. 00:10:06.760 --> 00:10:07.880 I'm really kind of curious. 00:10:07.880 --> 00:10:12.520 I really haven't asked this before, but we don't often talk about rites of passage in our society. 00:10:12.680 --> 00:10:13.880 What did anyone go, what 00:10:13.880 --> 00:10:17.640 What's a rites of passage or why would you do that at this stage of your life? 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:22.839 Yeah, I don't think I I may have mentioned the term, but I 00:10:23.339 --> 00:10:31.740 The people I would have told probably knew my story reasonably well and probably didn't ask further about it. 00:10:31.540 --> 00:10:44.420 I may have explained to one or two sort of like more like friends or acquaintances that were maybe don't know my whole story or were more open to knowing more of what could that be as a kind of men's 00:10:44.660 --> 00:10:46.900 Deepening experience. 00:10:47.220 --> 00:10:49.780 I might have explained that a little bit. 00:10:49.780 --> 00:10:57.940 And I do think my second youngest sister, I explained a little more what a men's rites of passage might mean in terms of kind of 00:10:58.420 --> 00:11:09.300 Coming through a sort of ritual and coming from, or I think I framed it too as like, okay, boys becoming going through this rite of passage and becoming men. 00:11:09.040 --> 00:11:16.480 is kind of the traditional pattern and see Native American or other sort of traditional cultures like that. 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:20.000 And of course, supposedly I'm a man or was a man. 00:11:20.020 --> 00:11:25.860 But you know, there's lots of parts of me that you know remain growing up still in a certain way. 00:11:25.860 --> 00:11:30.020 And so there's always like this trajectory of growth that's not just like 00:11:30.520 --> 00:11:31.480 Boom. 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:38.840 But I I probably explained briefly, like we don't have a quote rites of passage for men or boys here. 00:11:38.800 --> 00:11:40.640 generally as our culture. 00:11:40.640 --> 00:11:49.600 So to make an intentional transition and growth into adulthood, into true manhood, like was attractive to me 00:11:49.740 --> 00:11:53.340 And there was probably few people that I actually mentioned that to you. 00:11:53.660 --> 00:12:02.380 Yeah, the reason I asked in just as I was asking you the question, I go, I've been swimming in the Illuman waters for over a decade, and so rites of passage has become very 00:12:02.740 --> 00:12:04.740 normal, you know, thing for me. 00:12:04.740 --> 00:12:11.860 But I I still forget how kind of unusual it is in our culture and society for anybody to hear that word. 00:12:11.860 --> 00:12:13.380 So thank you. 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:20.519 I've had the good fortune of going to Minnesota and going to the Osprey Wilds, the center up there in Sandstone for a retreat. 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:25.079 I've not been there for rites of passage, but I want to take you back to the day that you arrived. 00:12:24.560 --> 00:12:27.600 You know, I imagine you either drove up or you you flew in. 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:28.240 I'm not sure. 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:32.000 Did you did you come alone to the to the rites or did you come in a carpool? 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:35.920 I flew to Minneapolis airport. 00:12:35.540 --> 00:12:40.580 And then a local person picked me up and trying to think if there was another person. 00:12:40.580 --> 00:12:47.779 I think it was somebody picked me up and we rode together then from the airport to Osprey Wilds. 00:12:47.220 --> 00:12:48.740 So you came with other men. 00:12:48.740 --> 00:13:00.020 And then so I'm just what I'm after here is, you know, how are you feeling as you got nearer to Sandstone and even pulled into the Osprey Wilds there and, you know, were about to begin the rites? 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:02.240 I remember the smell of sage. 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:10.480 They were sort of incensing, smudging as we rolled in, and it had a kind of mysterious flair to it. 00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:19.360 It wasn't too weird to me because I've kind of been around unique sort of spiritual or different kinds of spiritual sort of things. 00:13:19.680 --> 00:13:21.280 But it did have a bit of a 00:13:21.660 --> 00:13:32.780 I don't know, the guy and I who were riding together, we both have church leadership experience, so we kind of knew it's kind of moving into a different kind of space, a liminal space, and trying to create a space where 00:13:33.220 --> 00:13:39.860 magic, transformation, healing, growth can all happen in its in its way. 00:13:39.860 --> 00:13:42.260 So I'm sure I was excited 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:51.520 a bit anxious and in that kind of whatever that you feel when it's like, what's that strange, sort of mysterious thing going on? 00:13:51.520 --> 00:13:53.920 That's what I remember feeling. 00:13:53.620 --> 00:13:57.459 Was there something as you embarked on the rites that you were hoping to be initiated into? 00:13:57.779 --> 00:14:02.740 I mean, I think the only thing that I almost didn't dare even expect 00:14:03.400 --> 00:14:14.520 That in some ways was helpful was, and I won't go into great detail because it's very personal, but like healthy relational and healthy sexuality was something that 00:14:14.839 --> 00:14:20.680 I had always hoped for and strove to grow into and struggled with. 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:27.399 So I almost had so many struggles that I wouldn't even, quote, ask God for help. 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:35.400 That was one area where I did intentionally ask for help, so to speak, through some of the rites, and it wasn't like at all 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:38.160 Expected, prompted, or demanded. 00:14:38.160 --> 00:14:42.480 It was self just in a way asking God's help in that area of my life. 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:43.920 And as I went 00:14:44.040 --> 00:14:53.399 forward after the experience, I experienced a lot of relief and growth into a healthier way of living that I really didn't expect. 00:14:52.940 --> 00:14:53.820 Yeah, thank you for that. 00:14:53.820 --> 00:14:56.140 I appreciate your vulnerability there. 00:14:56.140 --> 00:15:04.860 And I'm going to ask you, did any fears or any anxiety rise to the surface as you went through the Wrights experience? 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:05.120 Yeah. 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:10.720 I'm a person who could have fear exhaustively at times. 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:18.400 And certainly different kinds of fears or different kinds of anxiety rose in different ways as I went through the experience. 00:15:18.140 --> 00:15:24.220 tick I already named kind of the am I going to get bit by a tick and get some kind of extended disease? 00:15:24.220 --> 00:15:27.820 What are the people going to be like in this experience or that? 00:15:27.740 --> 00:15:33.180 Or there were invitations to kind of rituals or things that just were not familiar to me. 00:15:33.180 --> 00:15:38.060 And so that can be a little bit like raise anxiety about not knowing. 00:15:37.920 --> 00:15:52.319 Those all seemed worth it compared to the if life is always so safe, like if my routines are too strong, if I'm always working the same job, doing the same routine, and always the same people in the same way. 00:15:51.420 --> 00:15:55.259 life gets very um stuck for me. 00:15:55.259 --> 00:16:01.819 So that's how I put it in context that it was worth well worth kind of living through those fears. 00:16:01.819 --> 00:16:04.220 And even in my monotonous life, if I'm 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:05.840 doing all the boring things. 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:09.120 Like there's still fears, there's still anxiety. 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:18.720 It's it's it's well worth the moments of discomfort for the connections and encouragement, depth. 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:22.640 And even joy and laughter and humor along the way. 00:16:22.880 --> 00:16:25.920 I feel like when fear and anxiety are 00:16:26.420 --> 00:16:32.579 present and sort of accepted in a certain way, it allows other emotions then to come around as well. 00:16:32.579 --> 00:16:36.019 If it's if I'm not stuffing all that down, it kind of releases 00:16:36.160 --> 00:16:39.200 in a free way, all the whole spectrum of emotion. 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:42.560 And so you survive the experience. 00:16:42.560 --> 00:16:43.920 You make it through to Sunday. 00:16:43.920 --> 00:16:47.200 You avoid any tick bites. 00:16:47.560 --> 00:16:51.800 It's time to get back into the car and and head to Minneapolis to catch flight. 00:16:51.800 --> 00:16:57.320 How are you feeling immediately after as you kind of pulled away from the Osprey Wilds? 00:16:56.820 --> 00:17:05.140 In a certain way, kind of effusive, almost like floating, but not because I was really, really rounded. 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:08.760 Like I was much more present in my body, relaxed. 00:17:08.760 --> 00:17:17.400 I guess more in tune with my better, higher self, with God, with knowing I was connected, especially with my 00:17:18.019 --> 00:17:20.419 Quote, small group or council. 00:17:20.419 --> 00:17:27.939 So I guess feeling more connected, more embodied, and more rooted with higher power as well. 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:34.440 Having more energy and being sort of more joyful and more emotionally connected, all of that together. 00:17:34.840 --> 00:17:39.800 Sometimes I've had spiritual experiences in the past that are powerful. 00:17:39.540 --> 00:17:44.580 But if I'm not grounded in my body too, I can feel really, really floaty. 00:17:44.660 --> 00:17:48.900 So it feels good and it's a positive thing, but it's also like almost like. 00:17:48.919 --> 00:17:52.280 Not quite in reality, or not quite grounded. 00:17:52.280 --> 00:17:57.559 So I felt really effusive, I think, is the best term. 00:17:57.300 --> 00:17:59.700 And it wasn't the floaty kind. 00:17:59.700 --> 00:18:07.540 It was more maybe a little floaty, but it was a lot more grounded in a way that I feel was healthy and whole and 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:09.240 powerful. 00:18:09.560 --> 00:18:14.520 I did feel some ang discomfort or anxiety in the, oh man, we're leaving. 00:18:14.520 --> 00:18:15.640 Like this was awesome. 00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:17.400 Let's stay here. 00:18:17.460 --> 00:18:21.620 I've talked to a lot of men who have been many years since they've made their rites. 00:18:21.940 --> 00:18:23.700 It could be 20 or more years. 00:18:23.700 --> 00:18:24.420 It could be 10. 00:18:24.420 --> 00:18:25.300 It could be even five. 00:18:25.300 --> 00:18:26.820 So your rites are much more recent. 00:18:26.820 --> 00:18:29.540 And that's actually one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you. 00:18:29.540 --> 00:18:29.780 But 00:18:29.860 --> 00:18:37.539 It's been about a year since you made your rites, and I am curious to know what impact those rites have had on you in this past year. 00:18:37.779 --> 00:18:41.220 What's changed in your life since making your rites? 00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:51.380 I think the first thing that was especially apparent and especially desirable for me was the growth of my sexuality and the healing in that aspect of my life. 00:18:50.820 --> 00:18:56.740 And strictly speaking, it was about two months that that was really, really present. 00:18:56.740 --> 00:19:02.660 I think there's still aspects of that present to today, but it's less strictly speaking 00:19:02.940 --> 00:19:05.580 sort of like a complete healing, you could say. 00:19:05.820 --> 00:19:15.820 But I'm still like very much in a more wholesome, healthy, and more self-accepting kind of space in that particular area. 00:19:15.740 --> 00:19:17.980 So that's different. 00:19:17.980 --> 00:19:27.340 I do feel like the practice of connecting with more Illuman groups and more men who have experienced the rites 00:19:27.620 --> 00:19:29.060 is helpful. 00:19:29.060 --> 00:19:31.700 Like I kind of miss that, frankly. 00:19:32.020 --> 00:19:38.500 I've had moments where I've connected and moments where it's been in between, but I definitely feel like 00:19:38.919 --> 00:19:50.120 to be able to kind of continue the work of the rice, to continue the growing, to stay connected with the, in a way, the gold, the gifts that came through the experience. 00:19:49.800 --> 00:19:58.680 it happened in a sense of, and a community is how it happened, and a community is how it's kind of sustained in a certain way, I think, too. 00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:07.540 So, being able to continue to be part of a kind of spiritual community, being able to keep connecting with men in deeper ways. 00:20:07.540 --> 00:20:10.340 And I've found that a bit of a challenge. 00:20:10.380 --> 00:20:20.780 Being back home where I grew up, away for 20 years, and coming back down home, it's like folks kind of have their relationships that they want. 00:20:20.679 --> 00:20:22.200 And from ages past. 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:27.559 And so it's a little hard here to break back into like friendship groups and things like that. 00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:29.000 So I do kind of 00:20:30.300 --> 00:20:31.660 Have some lament. 00:20:31.660 --> 00:20:39.820 I do miss some friendships from both my other parts of my life in different places and from Emra. 00:20:39.460 --> 00:20:49.300 Although we do connect occasionally with a couple of guys that are nearby from Indiana that went to the same rides I did and we didn't know each other before that. 00:20:49.300 --> 00:20:53.700 So I do cherish those moments when we get together for a meal or something. 00:20:54.460 --> 00:20:58.060 Have your conversations and relationships been impacted by the rites? 00:20:58.380 --> 00:20:59.980 I'm sure they have. 00:20:59.980 --> 00:21:04.540 Sometimes it's hard to see exactly how because 00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:13.560 You know, some men talk about how the rites expanded their ideas of fraternity and having relationships with other men. 00:21:13.560 --> 00:21:19.080 And I'm certainly, I hope you've experienced in the Illuman community that there's a real ability to 00:21:19.340 --> 00:21:25.100 speak vulnerably, speak even about your emotions, speak in a lot of depth about a lot of subjects. 00:21:25.419 --> 00:21:29.740 Maybe you're experiencing that even in some of your relationships outside of Illuman. 00:21:29.740 --> 00:21:30.940 I don't know. 00:21:30.620 --> 00:21:33.660 Yeah, I certainly can go there. 00:21:33.660 --> 00:21:39.580 I mean, definitely when I connect with folks who have experienced the Illuman or in a gathering of folks 00:21:39.540 --> 00:21:47.940 From a Illuman, it's definitely opens up that kind of rapport and safe space where men and I can be vulnerable. 00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:49.940 And I guess there are moments where 00:21:50.620 --> 00:22:03.420 I mean, I have to kind of I have trouble distinguishing because I'm kind of trained in a way from the priesthood ministry and almost spiritual counseling bit to have to build some of that safe space anyway. 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:12.480 So I don't I have trouble connecting which part is kind of what I learned before and which part kind of came with MROP. 00:22:12.100 --> 00:22:13.940 And frankly, it doesn't matter. 00:22:14.419 --> 00:22:24.899 I'm sure that my capacity for responding and holding space for others and being present, especially with men in ways that's 00:22:25.419 --> 00:22:31.900 say say less than common has expanded for sure from that retreat - from that MROP experience. 00:22:31.900 --> 00:22:37.260 I wish I could like pull out of the air and remember like, well, this experience is clearly that. 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:43.160 After experiencing the Rites, has your understanding of masculinity, initiation, even the male purpose changed at all? 00:22:43.480 --> 00:22:49.800 Perhaps I have a little more positive view of masculinity. 00:22:49.540 --> 00:22:59.300 I guess the stereotypical male that maybe has it really grown into a mature elder kind of person 00:23:00.100 --> 00:23:06.179 Is sort of the classic and average American or average person in my society. 00:23:06.179 --> 00:23:09.620 So I often kind of view male 00:23:10.560 --> 00:23:18.640 Examples as weak and kind of lame, or grumpy old men, or just really jaded. 00:23:18.660 --> 00:23:26.260 And not everybody's there, but the examples of men who really own 00:23:27.300 --> 00:23:37.460 Who they are, who are able to stand up for the people they care about, who are able to be, who can cry, and that's healthy and great. 00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:43.800 who support others in ways that are generous and sacrificing and kind. 00:23:44.120 --> 00:23:50.120 There are those, but it feels like less common and even sometimes rare. 00:23:50.120 --> 00:24:01.480 Certainly, there's moments that I see from my father or sometimes from a priest that I looked up to when I was younger. 00:24:01.800 --> 00:24:04.200 I've seen moments of that. 00:24:04.380 --> 00:24:14.140 So I guess my sense of having a more I guess a more in fleshed sense of the positive masculine, mature masculine. 00:24:14.120 --> 00:24:18.040 in male examples is more real. 00:24:18.040 --> 00:24:21.560 Rather than going, I don't want that, I don't want to be that. 00:24:21.560 --> 00:24:24.360 Maybe I have a little more sense of like, oh, well 00:24:25.019 --> 00:24:27.580 I hope to be kind of like that. 00:24:27.580 --> 00:24:33.019 Kind of the kind, the accepting the mature, elder. 00:24:33.500 --> 00:24:43.340 wise and humorous, like able to kind of go, Oh, didn't go the way I planned, and it seems to be good or good enough. 00:24:42.840 --> 00:24:47.799 that kind of when I see that kind of mentality that's just really healthy and heartwarming. 00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:50.120 No, I appreciate you your answer there. 00:24:50.120 --> 00:24:54.120 It really made me it brought home some things to me, especially when you started talking about 00:24:53.940 --> 00:25:01.139 Seeing some of these elements of transformation in your father and in maybe a priest that you had looked up to at other points in your life. 00:25:01.139 --> 00:25:01.779 So, what I'm 00:25:01.940 --> 00:25:04.419 I'm thinking is that you're seeing some generativity. 00:25:04.419 --> 00:25:11.620 You're seeing some of those aspects of the rites, the transformational aspects that we all hope to encounter and grow into. 00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:15.039 So I guess what I'm getting at here is you have a five-year-old son. 00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:16.240 He's still very young. 00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:20.320 But how do you think the rites have impacted you as a father? 00:25:20.320 --> 00:25:24.320 And how you will relate to him? 00:25:24.659 --> 00:25:26.980 raising a son in this world and this culture. 00:25:27.299 --> 00:25:29.299 It hits really close to home. 00:25:29.299 --> 00:25:36.179 In some ways, my father could express anger in a very explicit way. 00:25:35.940 --> 00:25:44.100 Frequently working with pigs on the farm, like, gosh dang, son-of-a-brick, like, like whatever you could imagine came out. 00:25:44.100 --> 00:25:47.860 And that anger and his expression of it affected me. 00:25:47.919 --> 00:25:56.720 And I see my behavior at times with my son, even yelling directly at him, I'm not content with that. 00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:59.120 I'm not okay with that. 00:25:58.840 --> 00:26:07.559 And so it's a live edge for me growing into learning to manage my emotions and, in particular, my anger in a way as I 00:26:07.940 --> 00:26:13.860 help my son grow into being older and maturing, growing through the phases of childhood. 00:26:13.860 --> 00:26:17.940 And so it's a it's a live edge that I'm still learning how to do it. 00:26:17.419 --> 00:26:26.620 And maybe that I can see it and express it and name it without just avoiding and knocking out the shame on it and ignoring the shame on it. 00:26:26.620 --> 00:26:30.539 That might be a result of MROP for me. 00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:40.279 I hope that it also I think it does offer me some tools as well that I can utilize and people that I can draw on for their wisdom. 00:26:40.940 --> 00:26:48.539 Getting better at this partial life by being father to a really sweet and energetic five-year-old 00:26:48.740 --> 00:26:50.820 He just, he's such a gift. 00:26:50.820 --> 00:26:54.900 And a lot of people around here enjoy him, even if they're just acquaintances. 00:26:54.900 --> 00:26:57.140 They're like, oh, your boy's so cute. 00:26:58.740 --> 00:26:59.460 That's wonderful. 00:26:59.460 --> 00:27:10.340 But now that you've experienced the rites as you enter the middle part of your life, do you have any sense that you'll be looking for youth rites, adolescent rites for your son? 00:27:09.940 --> 00:27:12.019 That's an excellent question. 00:27:12.019 --> 00:27:16.019 I hadn't realized or hadn't thought much about that. 00:27:16.340 --> 00:27:19.460 He's five and going to enter kindergarten and 00:27:19.840 --> 00:27:24.480 Yeah, I would love to support him in experiencing that. 00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:32.720 I think if I were tuned in as a teenager, whatever age youth rites would be, I think it could only help me. 00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:36.480 So, I would definitely support my son and being able to experience that. 00:27:36.800 --> 00:27:42.800 Yeah, I think that's something that many men within Illuman have sort of this growing awareness of, especially those with sons. 00:27:42.800 --> 00:27:45.760 My experience over the years is a lot of them go to the rites. 00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:55.560 And then they immediately want this either for the other men in their community or for their sons, regardless of what age they are, and endeavor to create those rites or bring them back home. 00:27:55.580 --> 00:28:00.380 You know, I'd like to really emphasize how big of a tent Illuman is. 00:28:00.380 --> 00:28:05.900 You know, we do have our roots in the work of Father Richard Rohr, who's a Franciscan priest. 00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:10.400 He wrote the books Adam's Return, and he did a lot of research on rites throughout the world. 00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:11.520 And he's well traveled. 00:28:11.600 --> 00:28:15.840 I spent a lot of time in other countries, including Africa, I know, some time in Asia. 00:28:15.840 --> 00:28:18.160 So he's been around and he understands. 00:28:17.860 --> 00:28:19.539 The rites very broadly. 00:28:19.539 --> 00:28:28.580 And the reason I say all this is because, you know, there's a lot of men that identify as Christian within Illuman, and that aspect is there. 00:28:28.460 --> 00:28:32.780 But you don't have to be Christian to participate in the men's rites of passage. 00:28:32.780 --> 00:28:34.940 So I want to know everybody will be welcome. 00:28:34.940 --> 00:28:43.020 You know, you may have to, you know, gauge your own sensitivities or comfortability around Christian traditions, especially people that have been harmed. 00:28:43.080 --> 00:28:45.799 By their faith and their backgrounds. 00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:56.039 So, this is just a long way of kind of winding up to the fact that there are a lot of men like you, Joe, who come from clerical backgrounds, pastors, priests. 00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:56.120 Other teachers. 00:28:56.120 --> 00:28:58.280 Some are still active in those ministries. 00:28:58.280 --> 00:28:59.720 You've left the priesthood. 00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:05.640 And your story is especially resonant for me because my father, too, was a Catholic priest and left the priesthood. 00:29:05.160 --> 00:29:07.800 And I know in some ways you never leave the priesthood, right? 00:29:07.800 --> 00:29:10.120 I mean, it's a very formative experience in your life. 00:29:10.520 --> 00:29:14.600 It's a peculiar vocation and calling. 00:29:14.540 --> 00:29:23.260 I just want to know, you know, a little bit about your experience or what did being a priest and spending some time as a Catholic priest? 00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:24.720 How did that contribute to your involvement in the rites? 00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:26.640 Or how did that impact your involvement in the rites? 00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:31.760 How did that influence your has that influenced your ideas of community and spiritual work? 00:29:31.760 --> 00:29:32.320 Lots there. 00:29:32.320 --> 00:29:34.240 I know there's a lot there. 00:29:34.019 --> 00:29:34.980 Yeah. 00:29:34.980 --> 00:29:43.539 I guess the background and experiences of ritual in the past or having some background knowledge of how like ritual works. 00:29:43.539 --> 00:29:45.220 Victor Turner, I think, was 00:29:45.700 --> 00:29:54.260 Who a person who names some of the steps in kind of like a rites of passage or can even be sacramentality. 00:29:54.260 --> 00:29:55.700 But anyway, I'm going technical. 00:29:55.700 --> 00:29:58.100 I'd rather say I think it helped me 00:29:58.519 --> 00:30:04.519 Have some background spiritually and some background to have some comfort level. 00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:08.360 And it probably was unlearning just this much. 00:30:08.679 --> 00:30:10.679 Like, it's sort of like 00:30:11.040 --> 00:30:18.400 I could get attached to the specific Catholic prayers that confect the Eucharist or something. 00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:25.520 And God's so much wider than just those particular words, so to speak. 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:33.760 I'm not trying to desecrate or say anything bad about particular Christian words or particular Christian rites, but God can be in anything. 00:30:33.760 --> 00:30:38.559 And in the moment, we can experience something of divine or 00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:48.080 Grace or love or whatever from many different angles, whether it's in church or in nature or in a council group or anything. 00:30:48.080 --> 00:30:50.320 Yes, it had an impact. 00:30:50.200 --> 00:30:59.400 it feels so like tied into everything that I have trouble like kind of grasping at at something. 00:30:59.340 --> 00:31:10.620 I can say that my experience now is like I still attend church and I'm Episcopalian, so kind of um Catholic light, if you will. 00:31:11.019 --> 00:31:21.419 So there's still a good amount of ritual in sacramentality, but it's also like a little wider sphere and a little lower church in some level. 00:31:22.300 --> 00:31:27.900 And my sense of the God I used to believe in has changed a lot too. 00:31:27.900 --> 00:31:30.620 So I don't I'm not so certain about 00:31:30.940 --> 00:31:36.380 the exact character of God and have God's finger in my life at every moment. 00:31:36.380 --> 00:31:42.059 And yet I still attend church, I still serve and assist in some ways, not as a priest. 00:31:42.059 --> 00:31:45.419 And I'm I still enjoy that kind of spiritual community. 00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:56.120 And, you know, if God decides somehow to put his finger or her finger or its finger or twiddle around in the mystery of my life experience, I'm open to that. 00:31:56.360 --> 00:31:59.480 I just don't necessarily expect it. 00:31:59.300 --> 00:32:01.780 In my particulars, like I used to. 00:32:02.500 --> 00:32:03.700 Yeah, thank you for that. 00:32:04.020 --> 00:32:10.100 I do want to emphasize, too, for our listeners that you and I particularly come from a Catholic background originally, but 00:32:09.900 --> 00:32:15.340