WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:09.600 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul. 00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:10.960 and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:12.320 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:17.200 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:17.200 --> 00:00:21.600 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites 00:00:21.560 --> 00:00:23.320 and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:32.920 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterwards. 00:00:32.360 --> 00:00:41.000 This podcast is truly a labor of love, inspired by my own transformative experience at the men's rites of passage and my ongoing commitment to the men of the Illumined community. 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:42.520 If this show resonates with you 00:00:42.500 --> 00:00:47.460 Please take a moment to rate, review, and share it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. 00:00:47.460 --> 00:00:50.260 You can find all of those links at M-R-O-P Talk dot 00:00:50.420 --> 00:00:51.460 com. 00:00:50.700 --> 00:00:54.540 To support my work, you can explore my published poetry volumes at Brian Mueller dot 00:00:54.620 --> 00:00:55.020 com. 00:00:55.020 --> 00:00:59.340 I also work closely with Men and Illuman to share and teach the practice of presence. 00:00:59.340 --> 00:01:01.980 You can learn more about that at choosing presence dot 00:01:02.220 --> 00:01:03.180 org. 00:01:02.760 --> 00:01:06.920 Before we go any further, I want you to know that this is an encore episode. 00:01:06.920 --> 00:01:15.720 The week of August 10th I'll be in Illinois at the men's rites of passage, standing with the men who are crossing that threshold this year, and I'll be away through the seventeenth. 00:01:14.939 --> 00:01:24.299 Rather than let the feet go quiet, I wanted to bring back two conversations that mean a great deal to me, and both of them are with men who are giving themselves to these very rites. 00:01:23.460 --> 00:01:29.380 Today you'll hear Episode one, My Conversation with Chester Trocha, the very first man to sit down with me on the show. 00:01:29.380 --> 00:01:33.380 Chester is serving as the MROP coordinator for the Illinois rites this year. 00:01:33.380 --> 00:01:38.260 Then, next Monday, august seventeenth, I'll re release Episode four with Bob Colaresi. 00:01:38.160 --> 00:01:44.480 Bob is the founder emeritus of these rites, and this year he serves as the weaver for the returning initiated men. 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:46.640 These two men are dear to me. 00:01:45.960 --> 00:01:47.400 and I respect them deeply. 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:55.400 Each of them has given themself, over many years, to walking alongside other men on the spiritual journey, and to building real community within Illuman. 00:01:54.660 --> 00:01:57.380 If you heard these conversations before, listen again. 00:01:57.380 --> 00:01:59.620 I think you'll hear something you missed the first time. 00:01:59.620 --> 00:02:02.660 And if they're new to you, you're in for a gift. 00:02:02.100 --> 00:02:06.180 New episodes return on Monday, august twenty fourth, and there is good work ahead. 00:02:06.180 --> 00:02:11.380 Conversations coming with Joe Grilliot from Ohio, Matthew Burch from Oklahoma. 00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:12.720 and Byron McMillan from New Mexico. 00:02:12.720 --> 00:02:21.280 Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:22.480 to a life of meaning and soul. 00:02:22.480 --> 00:02:26.960 On this show we don't just talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:32.320 Today I'm joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:41.120 My guest today is Chester Trocha. 00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:42.560 Brother, I'm really glad you're here. 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:46.000 Thanks for making the time and being willing to tell your story. 00:02:45.959 --> 00:02:47.720 Brian, it's great to be here. 00:02:48.040 --> 00:02:51.799 Chester, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:02:51.799 --> 00:02:58.519 Yeah, actually, I'm from Hawthorne Woods, Illinois, which is about an hour northwest of Chicago. 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:00.640 And I've been retired for the last four years. 00:03:00.640 --> 00:03:03.520 Right now, I'm a co-convener for Illuman of Illinois. 00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:08.000 I've been doing that for the last three years and also involved in my church as well. 00:03:08.160 --> 00:03:12.080 I've got four kids and happily married. 00:03:11.740 --> 00:03:12.860 Great. 00:03:12.860 --> 00:03:16.140 Now let's dive in and talk a little bit about the men's rites of passage. 00:03:16.140 --> 00:03:17.900 The MROP is a unique experience. 00:03:17.900 --> 00:03:19.260 It's not a retreat or a workshop. 00:03:19.260 --> 00:03:21.100 It's an initiation. 00:03:20.640 --> 00:03:26.159 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives looking for something they can't quite name. 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:30.159 But before we dive into the why and the how, let's start here from the beginning. 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:33.200 So, can you tell us where you made your rites? 00:03:32.920 --> 00:03:37.000 Yeah, I made my rides in Pilgrim Park up in Princeton, Illinois. 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:44.760 It's about two hours straight west of Chicago, along, I think it's Highway 88, and made it in 2012. 00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:47.480 It's been 13, yeah, 13, 14 years since I've done it. 00:03:47.480 --> 00:03:48.520 It has been a while. 00:03:48.520 --> 00:03:54.120 Now, when you think back to that weekend, you know, what's the first image or feeling that comes to mind? 00:03:53.440 --> 00:03:54.400 Yeah, it's interesting. 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:57.200 I've been thinking about it since we agreed to do this. 00:03:57.440 --> 00:04:02.239 Really, the first one is a feeling of connection, connection with myself. 00:04:02.239 --> 00:04:06.000 There's a connection with nature, connection with other men. 00:04:06.739 --> 00:04:11.300 And then Pilgrim Park is just a beautiful and serene location. 00:04:11.300 --> 00:04:12.739 It's full of trees. 00:04:12.739 --> 00:04:13.860 It's got open space. 00:04:13.860 --> 00:04:16.260 It's got a creek running through it. 00:04:16.540 --> 00:04:22.940 And it holds a special place in my heart, as it does for a lot of Illuman, because we've done a lot of MROPs there. 00:04:22.940 --> 00:04:25.660 Sounds like an oasis in the middle of Illinois. 00:04:25.660 --> 00:04:27.100 Actually, it does. 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:27.960 Great. 00:04:27.960 --> 00:04:30.520 So in general terms, what was the weekend like for you? 00:04:30.520 --> 00:04:32.040 Just kind of an overall picture. 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:32.600 Right. 00:04:34.280 --> 00:04:38.919 The only way I can really describe that is it was an incredible experience. 00:04:38.340 --> 00:04:43.700 And it's one that I've been carrying with me since I've been there, to be honest with you. 00:04:43.700 --> 00:04:44.820 Oh, that's great. 00:04:44.820 --> 00:04:45.940 Now, who is the Weaver? 00:04:45.940 --> 00:04:52.180 Well, the Weaver, for those who don't know, the Weaver is kind of the primary guide or the man that kind of leads everyone through the rites. 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:56.800 And so you can tell us who your weaver was and then about how many men were at the rites. 00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:01.920 Yeah, our weaver was Belden Lane, a lot of people in Illuman and the 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:04.520 Center of Action and Contemplation, know Belden. 00:05:04.600 --> 00:05:07.720 He's an incredible wisdom elder. 00:05:08.440 --> 00:05:10.760 He's focused on nature. 00:05:10.760 --> 00:05:12.200 He's an authentic 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:15.320 And fantastic storyteller. 00:05:15.320 --> 00:05:16.760 And so he was our weaver. 00:05:16.760 --> 00:05:18.520 He was absolutely incredible. 00:05:18.520 --> 00:05:19.640 Yeah, Belden is great. 00:05:19.640 --> 00:05:21.560 And how many men were with you? 00:05:21.340 --> 00:05:25.820 Yeah, we had probably about 35 to 40 men from all over the United States. 00:05:25.820 --> 00:05:28.380 We had men from Canada as well. 00:05:28.380 --> 00:05:31.020 And what was interesting, it was mostly a mix of 00:05:31.060 --> 00:05:33.060 Ordinary men from different walks of life. 00:05:33.060 --> 00:05:36.820 We have men from their 40s all the way to their mid-70s. 00:05:37.380 --> 00:05:43.699 I remember when in our group, we had a Mennonite minister, we had a Franciscan friar. 00:05:43.660 --> 00:05:53.820 A pastor from a church in Canada, and it was fantastic because when you're there, everybody's dressed in just casual attire, jeans and t-shirts, and it really does it. 00:05:53.820 --> 00:05:56.620 You're not wearing your garb or anything else. 00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:57.680 And it doesn't matter where you come from. 00:05:58.080 --> 00:06:00.720 Everybody's on an equal playing field when they're there. 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:01.600 All right. 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:10.400 Now, without saying anything that you might consider confidential or that you'd like to hold close, what were a few moments or elements from the rites that kind of stood out to you? 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:16.919 A big one for me was the extensive use of rituals. 00:06:17.479 --> 00:06:20.759 All of us have been exposed to rituals in our churches. 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:21.639 We go through 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:27.720 But in that environment, the rituals that we used were extremely powerful. 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:32.680 And at the time, I felt that they spoke. 00:06:32.620 --> 00:06:34.940 Directly to me or directly to my soul. 00:06:34.940 --> 00:06:38.300 And I've never experienced rituals like that before. 00:06:38.940 --> 00:06:44.139 And they were very deliberate and very moving and designed to. 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:45.800 Deliver a message at that time. 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:47.400 And that was a big takeaway for me. 00:06:47.400 --> 00:06:50.039 I've never been exposed to rituals. 00:06:50.440 --> 00:06:58.199 And then the other part of it is just prior to this, I never had much time myself to spend time in nature. 00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:10.919 And just allowing us, and especially with Belden, being a man of nature and wilderness, the opportunity to spend time alone, to really reflect on nature was a big takeaway for me as well. 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:12.000 That sounds great. 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:22.240 Now you've had many years, more than a decade now, to kind of reflect, or maybe it was something really in the moment, but was there one thing that impacted you strongest? 00:07:21.740 --> 00:07:25.900 Is it something that you've reflected on and you know it, or was it right there in the moment it hits you? 00:07:26.220 --> 00:07:26.620 Yeah. 00:07:26.620 --> 00:07:32.700 I mean, the big one for me was the opportunity to spend time in small groups. 00:07:32.700 --> 00:07:34.380 We call them councils, right? 00:07:35.500 --> 00:07:42.620 And what we found is we end up in the small group, five or six men, and you're with that group the entire time. 00:07:42.620 --> 00:07:48.060 And immediately, you know, you're in the safe environment, and men just open up. 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:55.479 And I come from the corporate world and men don't normally do that, you know, sharing each other's stories and 00:07:55.760 --> 00:07:57.120 and life's challenges. 00:07:57.120 --> 00:08:04.240 And it's amazing when you're in a safe environment how people drop their guards and they're open to share heart to heart. 00:08:04.260 --> 00:08:09.380 And, you know, and from that, I realized, you know, I'm not alone in my journey. 00:08:09.380 --> 00:08:15.540 I'm sharing my journey with other men, you know, going through the same type of thing from a different environment. 00:08:15.380 --> 00:08:16.100 That's great. 00:08:16.100 --> 00:08:26.740 I hope this doesn't sound sort of redundant, but is there a particular memory or something that you're willing to share that captures a broad, broad perspective of what the rites have meant for you in the years since? 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:32.080 Yeah, yeah, there's one that you bring it up. 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:36.880 I remember when the MROP was over and most men had left. 00:08:36.680 --> 00:08:41.560 And I sat down by a pond and I just started sobbing. 00:08:41.560 --> 00:08:46.440 You know, I went through this incredible experience, and I'm just sitting there on a bench. 00:08:46.040 --> 00:08:46.920 Nobody's there. 00:08:46.920 --> 00:08:48.200 It's absolutely quiet. 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:51.240 And something welled up inside me. 00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:52.920 And I don't know if it was happiness. 00:08:52.920 --> 00:08:55.080 I don't know if it was sadness. 00:08:54.640 --> 00:08:56.160 I don't know if it was relief. 00:08:56.160 --> 00:08:57.840 I don't know if it was a letdown. 00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:06.640 But there's the experience of the MROP touched something deep in my soul, in my heart, that I never experienced before. 00:09:06.640 --> 00:09:09.120 And I just sat there for a long time. 00:09:08.940 --> 00:09:13.660 And deep contemplation about what I just experienced and what I just went through. 00:09:13.660 --> 00:09:18.940 So, and I know, you know, then I'm sitting there going, no, at the end, 00:09:19.100 --> 00:09:28.300 You know, I was appreciative of my life and had a renewed sense of God's presence, that there is something much larger at work. 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:29.880 In what I had just gone through. 00:09:29.880 --> 00:09:34.200 So it's hard to rush back to your normal life after that, isn't it? 00:09:35.160 --> 00:09:36.760 Absolutely. 00:09:37.420 --> 00:09:39.660 Let's go back a little bit to the beginning. 00:09:39.660 --> 00:09:45.899 And were there any special circumstances or things happening in your life at the time that you decided to participate? 00:09:45.920 --> 00:09:51.839 Yeah, for me, I mentioned I was in the corporate world in my mid-50s, married. 00:09:52.560 --> 00:09:58.399 A couple of my kids were in college, the other two were in high school, kind of at that stage where kids are starting to leave. 00:09:57.920 --> 00:10:03.360 Working full time, and I was caught up in the rat race of the corporate world, to be honest with you. 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:07.839 And I had no time for myself, no time to really step back and reflect. 00:10:07.760 --> 00:10:11.760 And I felt that there had to be something more to life, you know. 00:10:11.760 --> 00:10:17.760 And I was introduced to Richard Rohr three years earlier when he was in the area speaking. 00:10:19.100 --> 00:10:23.420 And I had a friend of mine tell me about him and really connected with his message. 00:10:23.420 --> 00:10:26.300 And I read his book, Adam's Return. 00:10:26.300 --> 00:10:29.260 He's got a book on initiation. 00:10:29.020 --> 00:10:38.620 And I was intrigued by his thoughts around male initiation and the need to shed baggage that holds you back as you enter the second half of life. 00:10:38.620 --> 00:10:40.460 In order to be a more generative man. 00:10:40.460 --> 00:10:42.700 And that was of interest for me. 00:10:42.700 --> 00:10:43.100 So. 00:10:43.420 --> 00:10:43.980 Yeah. 00:10:43.980 --> 00:10:44.780 That makes sense. 00:10:44.780 --> 00:10:46.140 Is there, did you have 00:10:47.140 --> 00:10:50.820 Do you have like a particular goal or something that you were anticipating? 00:10:50.820 --> 00:10:54.900 Or was there something that you were fearing as you were heading into the rites? 00:10:55.459 --> 00:11:01.060 Either something you were hoping to get out of it explicitly or something that was very frightening to you before you got there. 00:11:01.060 --> 00:11:01.779 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:02.180 --> 00:11:05.300 I was just… I had um.. 00:11:08.280 --> 00:11:11.560 Back a few years before that, I had just started on my spiritual path. 00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:15.800 My mother had died, and she was really spiritual. 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:17.800 And something just triggered in me. 00:11:17.800 --> 00:11:22.840 And so it's just really a continuation of my path. 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:25.640 And as I, you know, studied. 00:11:25.560 --> 00:11:28.120 The MROP, I had no idea what to expect. 00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:35.640 I knew that Richard Ruhr was the original designer of it, and so that brought a lot to the table for me. 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:38.160 And I remember filling out the application and getting accepted. 00:11:38.160 --> 00:11:39.040 And it was a big unknown. 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:41.840 It's like, oh, okay, I guess I'm going, right. 00:11:42.160 --> 00:11:45.040 And I was a bit anxious because it's a big commitment. 00:11:45.040 --> 00:11:47.680 I mean, basically, you're asking for five days, four nights, right? 00:11:47.680 --> 00:11:49.920 It's not just a weekend, you know. 00:11:50.020 --> 00:11:53.700 And I had never previously committed to anything like that. 00:11:53.700 --> 00:11:59.780 And so I went in with an open mind, you know, just hoping to reflect on my life and leave with some direction. 00:11:59.780 --> 00:12:04.100 You know, how can I be better with a better man and my wife? 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:06.920 My family, my kids, those around me. 00:12:06.920 --> 00:12:09.560 You know, I'm going to be retiring in a few years. 00:12:09.560 --> 00:12:12.040 What do I want to do with my community? 00:12:12.940 --> 00:12:20.140 And the intent was to hopefully provide a better focus on what's important and how it can approach life in general, I guess, is what I was looking at. 00:12:20.140 --> 00:12:24.540 Yeah, you'd said earlier that, like, when the rites ended, you had this moment where you. 00:12:24.640 --> 00:12:31.040 sat by yourself next to some some body of water and you let out these emotions and and actually some tears came as well. 00:12:31.040 --> 00:12:33.360 But what was it like when you got home? 00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:34.000 You know? 00:12:34.339 --> 00:12:35.779 Well, it's interesting. 00:12:35.779 --> 00:12:39.459 Actually, my story after that is I left, right, and everybody was gone. 00:12:39.459 --> 00:12:40.180 And I'm driving home. 00:12:40.180 --> 00:12:42.500 Now, if you're Pilgrim Park's kind of out in the middle of nowhere, right? 00:12:42.660 --> 00:12:43.940 It's on the highway. 00:12:43.940 --> 00:12:46.579 So about 15 minutes into the ride. 00:12:47.139 --> 00:12:48.899 I remember stopping at a Starbucks. 00:12:48.899 --> 00:12:50.980 There's a Starbucks on the first exit. 00:12:50.980 --> 00:12:53.300 And so I need some coffee. 00:12:53.300 --> 00:12:54.339 And I walked. 00:12:54.220 --> 00:12:56.460 And I felt like incredible. 00:12:56.460 --> 00:12:57.100 I get out of the car. 00:12:57.100 --> 00:12:58.700 I mean, incredibly happy and joyous. 00:12:58.700 --> 00:13:02.780 It's like, man, yeah, I just felt like, you know, and it was hard to contain my joy. 00:13:03.160 --> 00:13:10.440 Guy, I'm walking to the Starbucks, and this old guy was walking behind me, and I held the door open for him and greeted him, you know, really joyously. 00:13:10.440 --> 00:13:11.800 And I bought him a cup of coffee. 00:13:11.880 --> 00:13:14.280 It's like, you know, it's like, God, he couldn't contain it. 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:17.960 And then I got in my car. 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:19.800 And then after that, it was a two-hour drive. 00:13:19.800 --> 00:13:26.600 And my recommendation: you know, if you have an opportunity to reflect after the MROP, you know, do so because. 00:13:26.540 --> 00:13:29.820 Spent a couple hours just in deep reflection on what I experienced. 00:13:30.620 --> 00:13:35.260 And then, you know, had to go to work the next morning, first thing Monday morning, right? 00:13:36.620 --> 00:13:38.620 And jump back in my routine. 00:13:38.620 --> 00:13:41.180 And it just felt foreign and disappointing. 00:13:41.180 --> 00:13:46.220 And it's like, ah, after all I had gone through with all the internal work that I was doing. 00:13:45.860 --> 00:13:48.740 to jump right back into my job with was really challenging. 00:13:48.740 --> 00:13:50.420 So yeah, I can imagine. 00:13:50.420 --> 00:13:55.300 I know for a lot of guys, going through the rites is really is crossing a threshold, but 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:59.360 You know, from talking to men over the years, some feel that impact immediately. 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:01.520 Others, it's a bit of a delay. 00:14:01.520 --> 00:14:06.720 It takes some time to really settle in what that experience was all about and what it's meant to them. 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:08.600 You know, how did you how was that for you? 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:13.160 And how has it, you know, impacted your spiritual journey since that time? 00:14:13.160 --> 00:14:14.440 Yeah, so what's changed? 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:15.320 Yeah, what's changed? 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:19.960 Yeah, so first of all, in this little journey, as I said, you go through the rites. 00:14:19.560 --> 00:14:21.160 And you got to go and get right back into your life. 00:14:21.160 --> 00:14:21.720 You know what I mean? 00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:23.160 It's like, ah, you know what I mean? 00:14:23.160 --> 00:14:26.920 So it took me a long time to unpack everything that I'd gone through. 00:14:26.920 --> 00:14:28.600 You know, it's not an immediate thing. 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:29.960 You just went through this. 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:35.240 For a lot of men, a life-changing moment, right, or period of time. 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:40.040 And so to be thrust back into a regular routine was challenging. 00:14:39.880 --> 00:14:49.640 And but it made, you know, over time, you know, as I was reflecting, right, it made me reflect on some of the things I'm doing, the way I'm reacting to things. 00:14:50.779 --> 00:14:53.500 And really focusing on what was truly important. 00:14:54.060 --> 00:15:00.380 Prior to it, it was all about productivity and getting things done and really starting to spend more time 00:15:01.060 --> 00:15:05.940 With people and really, really listening to them. 00:15:06.580 --> 00:15:11.940 And it certainly accelerated my desire to continue to grow spiritually. 00:15:11.940 --> 00:15:14.260 I mean, it just triggered something in me. 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:21.640 And also, what I realized over time, I started connecting with nature much more than I ever did in the past. 00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:24.360 It really triggered something there, too. 00:15:24.500 --> 00:15:25.380 Great. 00:15:25.380 --> 00:15:39.060 Now, um you know, uh not that you did this or anybody needs to do this, but when you made the decision to attend the rites, I don't know if you told your you know and certainly you had that conversation with your wife, but I don't know if you talked to friends or other family members. 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:41.880 How did they react to your decision to go to the rites? 00:15:41.880 --> 00:15:42.280 Yeah. 00:15:42.280 --> 00:15:50.360 So, I mean, my wife has always been extremely supportive of my journey, and that's critical to anybody going through it, right? 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:50.760 I mean, 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:51.680 Yeah. 00:15:51.680 --> 00:15:53.440 So she was really supportive. 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:59.840 A close friend of mine at our church was actually the person that talked me into going to the MROP. 00:15:59.800 --> 00:16:03.640 And so he was he encouraged me to attend. 00:16:03.640 --> 00:16:07.800 And actually, over about three, four years, he wanted me to do it. 00:16:07.800 --> 00:16:09.640 And I just wasn't ready. 00:16:08.940 --> 00:16:09.740 You know what I mean? 00:16:09.740 --> 00:16:11.020 But he was supportive. 00:16:11.020 --> 00:16:14.620 And then what I found, I didn't really discuss it with anybody else. 00:16:14.860 --> 00:16:18.620 My kids, they asked me, but it's but the 00:16:19.540 --> 00:16:22.660 It's hard to explain to somebody what you've been through. 00:16:22.660 --> 00:16:28.500 So they're supportive and but superficially supportive, to be a good way to put it. 00:16:28.220 --> 00:16:29.980 You know, how did those afterwards? 00:16:29.980 --> 00:16:31.340 So you come back from the rites. 00:16:31.340 --> 00:16:31.500 Yeah. 00:16:31.660 --> 00:16:34.060 Of course, a lot of those people want to know what it was like. 00:16:34.060 --> 00:16:37.180 You know, what kind of conversations did you have about the rites? 00:16:36.940 --> 00:16:39.740 Did those conversations, you know, change if you know? 00:16:40.060 --> 00:16:41.500 Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. 00:16:41.500 --> 00:16:49.500 So the rites are impossible to explain to somebody because it's so internal. 00:16:49.500 --> 00:16:50.460 It's so. 00:16:50.520 --> 00:16:53.000 you know, personal. 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:56.440 And I came home and tried to explain it to my wife and she listened. 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:04.920 But it's like I said, it's so personal, it's really difficult to truly reflect what happened. 00:17:04.980 --> 00:17:11.620 And I realized that unless you've been through it, you're not going to understand it. 00:17:11.620 --> 00:17:13.939 So as time went on, I just kept it to myself. 00:17:13.939 --> 00:17:15.140 I went to retreat. 00:17:15.140 --> 00:17:15.620 You know what I mean? 00:17:15.620 --> 00:17:17.939 I just kind of kept it there because it's hard to share. 00:17:17.939 --> 00:17:19.220 It really is. 00:17:18.919 --> 00:17:26.120 And I did share my experience with a friend who encouraged me to attend, and that was really important because he understood it. 00:17:26.520 --> 00:17:29.320 And I shared things with him heart to heart. 00:17:29.320 --> 00:17:31.080 And that's important as well. 00:17:31.179 --> 00:17:37.260 So, but within that, I didn't really believe that there were any immediate changes as we talked about. 00:17:37.260 --> 00:17:39.980 And I just find myself being much more reflective. 00:17:39.980 --> 00:17:40.940 So, right. 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:44.360 Yeah, it's kind of a slow burn sometimes for a lot of men. 00:17:44.360 --> 00:17:44.840 Yeah. 00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:53.240 You know, now a good way to put that is, you know, it's kind of ignited a slow spiritual churning in me, you know, would be a good way to put it. 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:54.760 So, yeah. 00:17:54.740 --> 00:18:07.940 Now, it's been nearly a decade and a half since you made your rites in 2012, and you've had a lot of time processing, and you've certainly gotten further involved in the men's community Illuman that surrounds the rites of passage. 00:18:08.120 --> 00:18:16.840 But what would you say has changed in your life, sort of from either from a practical standpoint, a relational standpoint, even a spiritual standpoint since you're right? 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:18.360 Yeah, yeah. 00:18:19.700 --> 00:18:20.100 Yeah. 00:18:20.100 --> 00:18:25.380 So during the MROP, we start each day with a morning sit, you know, we call centering prayer. 00:18:25.380 --> 00:18:27.620 And that really resonated with me. 00:18:27.620 --> 00:18:32.100 We were doing some of that, but if you're doing it for five days in a row. 00:18:32.280 --> 00:18:43.000 It really resonated with me just to sit in silence and sit in silence in the proximity or the relationship with God. 00:18:42.540 --> 00:18:47.260 And I started a daily centering practice and been doing that ever since. 00:18:47.260 --> 00:18:49.420 I've been doing that for many years now. 00:18:49.420 --> 00:18:54.460 And as a result, I find that I'm much more intentional when I connect with people and much. 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:58.240 More in tune with nature and my surroundings. 00:18:59.280 --> 00:19:02.080 And I still have this yearning, right? 00:19:02.080 --> 00:19:03.200 Spiritual yearning. 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:05.040 And that's an important part of my life. 00:19:05.620 --> 00:19:09.540 A couple years ago, I attended the Living School at the Center of Action and Contemplation. 00:19:09.540 --> 00:19:11.540 So it's a year-long program. 00:19:11.860 --> 00:19:14.660 In fact, Belden Lane was part of that as well. 00:19:14.580 --> 00:19:17.780 And my journey is just a continuous process. 00:19:18.020 --> 00:19:24.900 I'm engaged with Illuman of Illinois and engaged in my church, you know, kind of a parallel path there. 00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:27.220 And it's something that'll never stop. 00:19:26.840 --> 00:19:30.600 So it's just something that's part of me that I will do forever. 00:19:30.600 --> 00:19:38.520 Well, and I think it's worth mentioning that you've now been involved in planning and helping deliver the rites logistically. 00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:40.039 Yes, I have. 00:19:39.940 --> 00:19:40.340 Yeah. 00:19:40.659 --> 00:19:42.179 And it's amazing. 00:19:42.179 --> 00:19:47.940 It's just as amazing to be on the other side of it, Brian, and you've experienced that as well, as it is to go through it. 00:19:47.940 --> 00:19:48.740 It really is. 00:19:48.980 --> 00:19:51.220 I get so much out of it. 00:19:50.919 --> 00:19:52.679 Yeah, I echo that. 00:19:52.679 --> 00:20:03.559 So now that you've been through this rites and you've been involved with men's work for many years, how has your understanding of masculinity, initiation, and sort of our purpose in life shifted over time? 00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:05.000 Yeah, boy. 00:20:05.300 --> 00:20:10.340 You know, I was raised in a world where a guy needs to be tough, you know, in macho. 00:20:10.980 --> 00:20:15.380 I worked in the steel mills in Gary, you know, a tough guy. 00:20:15.120 --> 00:20:17.200 And we see that, you know, really. 00:20:17.360 --> 00:20:20.960 And also as I was going through the corporate world, man, it's all eagle. 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:25.040 You know, you got to be tough to kind of maintain, to grow, that type of thing. 00:20:24.919 --> 00:20:30.600 And that's fine, you know, as we need to build our ego structure and containers early on. 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:34.919 But we need something different as we approach the second half of life. 00:20:34.919 --> 00:20:39.559 And those superficial containers that define ourselves don't work anymore. 00:20:39.780 --> 00:20:40.180 Yeah. 00:20:40.980 --> 00:20:49.220 And to me, just as I'm going through this and I've seen been leading the M or being involved in the MROP. 00:20:48.940 --> 00:20:59.260 You know, men, as men, we need to be shaken up sometimes, you know, to make us analyze our lives, you know, and realize that there's something greater out there, there's a power greater than us that we need to lean on. 00:20:59.300 --> 00:21:01.300 And life's now all about us. 00:21:01.300 --> 00:21:10.020 And then sometimes it's the loss of a loved one or a personal crisis, or, you know, or for me, it's simply a realization that there's more to life. 00:21:10.020 --> 00:21:10.260 And 00:21:11.040 --> 00:21:13.440 And we're looking for something more. 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:15.840 So, um, yeah. 00:21:15.840 --> 00:21:19.600 So that's what the men's rites of passage did for me. 00:21:19.600 --> 00:21:20.080 Um 00:21:20.620 --> 00:21:25.580 You know, when you lift the veil and approach life, and you look at the world differently after that. 00:21:27.340 --> 00:21:27.660 So 00:21:28.060 --> 00:21:37.500 You know, we're hoping to have we're having this conversation with the hope that men will be listening to this, the ones that are considering, you know, that are going through something in their life or considering. 00:21:37.900 --> 00:21:46.780 Having some spiritual questioning or want a deeper experience in life or considering participating in the rites, but they're wanting to get more information, they're just not sure. 00:21:46.780 --> 00:21:49.260 So, what kind of counsel would you offer? 00:21:48.860 --> 00:21:52.620 A man who's trying to discern whether or not to participate in the rites this year. 00:21:52.620 --> 00:21:53.019 Yeah. 00:21:53.019 --> 00:21:55.100 I mean, so first of all, I would pray on it, right? 00:21:55.100 --> 00:22:02.779 I mean, basically, it's not something you just jump into, it's something that triggers in you, and there's a yearning to do that. 00:22:02.780 --> 00:22:11.580 There is a book that Richard Rohroth wrote called Adam's Return, and that gives a good summary of the initiation process and what to possibly expect there. 00:22:11.340 --> 00:22:15.260 And the other thought is to reach out to other men who've gone through the MROP. 00:22:15.260 --> 00:22:21.660 And if you're not exposed to them, you know, we've got the Illuman website, the Illuminative Illinois website. 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:22.720 Website, you know, www. 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:23.360 Illuman. 00:22:23.520 --> 00:22:23.840 org. 00:22:23.840 --> 00:22:26.720 We've got information on the MROP there. 00:22:27.600 --> 00:22:31.360 And if they're interested, and again, I'm 00:22:31.740 --> 00:22:41.740 In Illuman of Illinois, get on our website and there's an opportunity to connect with us, and some one of us will get back with you to talk about it some more. 00:22:41.660 --> 00:22:42.059 Absolutely. 00:22:42.059 --> 00:22:44.460 And there's the Illuman community at community dot 00:22:44.539 --> 00:22:45.100 Illuman dot 00:22:45.179 --> 00:22:47.580 org, which is kind of like our Yeah, I left that out. 00:22:47.580 --> 00:22:50.059 And that's really big too, to join that community. 00:22:50.059 --> 00:22:51.020 And anybody can do that. 00:22:51.580 --> 00:22:55.179 You don't have to be part of Illuman to join that community. 00:22:54.919 --> 00:23:04.840 So yeah, and I would say I would just add, too, that if men are interested, they can join you and me this year at the Illinois Writes, which is going to be August 12th through the 16th. 00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:06.880 We'll be there to help support them through it. 00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:10.800 And if they want to reach out with questions, they certainly can do that ahead of time. 00:23:10.800 --> 00:23:12.080 So, you know, 00:23:12.120 --> 00:23:16.360 Well, and again, if you're interested in that, you know, get on Illuman Illinois dot 00:23:16.360 --> 00:23:18.200 org or Illuman dot 00:23:18.360 --> 00:23:18.760 org. 00:23:18.760 --> 00:23:20.520 And there's a lot of information. 00:23:20.520 --> 00:23:22.040 There's a video from Richard Rohr. 00:23:22.040 --> 00:23:23.800 There's a lot of information on MROP. 00:23:23.800 --> 00:23:26.200 And we would encourage you to join us. 00:23:25.940 --> 00:23:32.740 Yeah, and let me just the last thing I would might add, and if you have anything to add about this, is you can you can overanalyze this decision. 00:23:32.740 --> 00:23:34.740 You know, you're not going to have all the answers. 00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:39.139 It's good to go in with an open mind and a bit of an open heart to what's going to happen. 00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:40.520 It's certainly no secret. 00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:44.600 It's not a secret of rites or confidential in any big way. 00:23:44.600 --> 00:23:49.480 But to know everything that's going to happen or go on is not necessarily helpful, is it? 00:23:49.040 --> 00:23:50.080 No, it's not at all. 00:23:50.080 --> 00:23:53.520 No, no, actually, it's all about mystery, to be honest with you. 00:23:53.760 --> 00:23:54.560 Yeah, yeah. 00:23:54.560 --> 00:23:55.760 You know, so it is. 00:23:55.760 --> 00:23:58.240 Just go in with an open heart. 00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:01.040 Just go in with an open heart and an open mind. 00:24:02.080 --> 00:24:08.160 And just know that you will take something out of it without a doubt. 00:24:09.540 --> 00:24:11.780 Well, Chester, brother, thank you so much. 00:24:11.780 --> 00:24:19.540 Relia, we appreciate your honesty, your courage and for letting us in, giving us a window on your experience of the MROP. 00:24:19.620 --> 00:24:20.740 Well, thank you so much. 00:24:20.740 --> 00:24:25.860 Like I said, it's been so important to me, and I do encourage other men to do it. 00:24:25.860 --> 00:24:26.180 All right. 00:24:26.180 --> 00:24:28.260 We'll see you at Pilgrim Park. 00:24:27.540 --> 00:24:28.100