WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:12.160 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:11.460 --> 00:00:12.740 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:12.740 --> 00:00:18.180 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.180 --> 00:00:24.740 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:24.260 --> 00:00:34.020 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterwards. 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:42.920 This podcast is truly a labor of love, inspired by my own transformative experience at the men's rites of passage and my ongoing commitment to the Illuman Community. 00:00:42.340 --> 00:00:49.219 If this show resonates with you, please take a moment to rate, review, and share it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. 00:00:49.219 --> 00:00:52.579 You can find all of those links at m-r-o-p talk dot 00:00:52.739 --> 00:00:53.219 com. 00:00:53.219 --> 00:00:54.260 To support my work 00:00:54.260 --> 00:00:57.460 You can explore my published poetry volumes at Brian Mueller dot 00:00:57.539 --> 00:00:58.100 com. 00:00:58.100 --> 00:01:03.059 I also work closely with men and Illuman to share and teach the practice of presence. 00:01:02.340 --> 00:01:04.820 You can learn more about that at choosing presence dot 00:01:04.900 --> 00:01:05.140 org. 00:01:05.299 --> 00:01:15.540 Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. 00:01:14.860 --> 00:01:17.420 On this show we just don't talk about the rites in theory. 00:01:17.420 --> 00:01:19.500 We talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:01:19.500 --> 00:01:23.020 Today I'm joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:25.600 Exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:01:32.500 --> 00:01:34.180 My guest today is Steve Duncan. 00:01:34.180 --> 00:01:35.460 Brother, I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:35.460 --> 00:01:38.260 Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. 00:01:38.260 --> 00:01:40.420 It's really special to be with you today, Brian. 00:01:40.420 --> 00:01:41.460 Thank you. 00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:44.399 Steve, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:50.240 Well, right now I'm in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, but I was born and raised and spent most of my adult life in 00:01:50.560 --> 00:01:53.200 Southern California and Eastern LA County. 00:01:53.440 --> 00:01:57.360 Moved east in 2020 to follow our family and our grandchildren. 00:01:57.360 --> 00:02:00.640 And so we've been in Gettysburg for about three years now. 00:02:00.320 --> 00:02:14.080 and spend time doing a variety of family things and helping with grandchild pickup at school and all those sorts of things, and then getting more and more active in the Gettysburg Community, which has been really wonderful. 00:02:13.460 --> 00:02:13.940 Thank you. 00:02:13.940 --> 00:02:16.580 Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. 00:02:16.580 --> 00:02:18.260 The MROP is a unique experience. 00:02:18.260 --> 00:02:19.620 It's not a retreat or a workshop. 00:02:19.620 --> 00:02:20.740 It's an initiation. 00:02:20.740 --> 00:02:25.060 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. 00:02:25.060 --> 00:02:28.020 Before we dive into the wine and how, let's start at the very beginning. 00:02:27.760 --> 00:02:29.920 When and where did you make your right, Steve? 00:02:29.920 --> 00:02:34.160 I did it in August of 2015 in Northern California at Camp Tamarack. 00:02:34.160 --> 00:02:37.120 And do you recall who the Weber was and about how many men were present? 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:41.360 Yeah, it was Jim Taylor, and there were about 32, I think. 00:02:40.760 --> 00:02:46.440 Now, when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image or feeling that comes forth for you? 00:02:46.760 --> 00:02:50.520 Probably one of the larger leaps of faith that I had taken. 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:51.800 I really knew. 00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:53.319 I knew nothing about the men's work. 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:54.760 I knew nothing about Illuman. 00:02:54.760 --> 00:03:02.200 I was familiar with Richard Rohr and had been to a number of his presentations and conferences and so forth. 00:03:02.920 --> 00:03:10.840 I went really in cold to the extent to where I I actually uh intentionally chose not to drive myself. 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:16.520 I did a carpool with another man I didn't know, but that also meant that he was in control of the driving. 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:19.560 And so I showed up just being kind of totally open. 00:03:19.720 --> 00:03:23.000 How would you summarize the entire weekend for you, that experience? 00:03:22.940 --> 00:03:32.620 One of the reasons that I went was that I realized shortly after I retired that I really did not have any in-depth male relationships. 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:34.040 And I really missed that. 00:03:34.040 --> 00:03:36.040 I missed that energy. 00:03:36.040 --> 00:03:43.400 And starting with the very first evening, and I was just humbled by the men I was with and the 00:03:43.940 --> 00:03:48.900 The gift that it was to be able to be with them in that kind of in that kind of setting. 00:03:48.900 --> 00:03:52.260 And then kind of that rolled on through the weekend. 00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:57.280 I never participated in anything remotely close to that kind of event. 00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:03.120 And I think that energy continued over the course of the event. 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:11.080 Now without sharing anything that you consider too personal or would be confidential, was there a particular event ritual that happened that weekend? 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:13.960 Or was there an encounter you had with another man that really fans? 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:14.760 Yeah. 00:04:14.640 --> 00:04:16.639 Yeah, there are a couple. 00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:24.960 I mean, that first night, just the vulnerability of the men and their sharing, I ended up that first night getting off into some stuff that 00:04:25.520 --> 00:04:29.040 That quite frankly, I'd never shared, but needed to be shared. 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:30.400 I needed to share. 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:39.920 There was one ritual where I had some physical, personal physical challenges, not the ritual itself was necessarily all that physical demanding. 00:04:39.840 --> 00:04:42.560 And I was feeling kind of self-conscious and at ease. 00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:50.160 And one of the team came up behind me and just gently kind of put his hands under my shoulders and kind of supported me. 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:50.000 Through that. 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:55.520 And I kind of well up a little bit to this day, you know, 11 years later, thinking about that moment. 00:04:55.520 --> 00:04:56.880 And I've carried that with me. 00:04:56.880 --> 00:04:59.120 Yeah, that's really beautiful. 00:04:58.260 --> 00:05:01.620 Now you alluded to this before, in terms of the circumstances in your life. 00:05:01.620 --> 00:05:03.220 You had just retired. 00:05:03.220 --> 00:05:07.620 You were familiar with Richard Rohr, and that kind of led you closer to this experience. 00:05:07.620 --> 00:05:10.580 But more specifically, what were the circumstances in your life 00:05:10.660 --> 00:05:14.740 That led you at that particular time to go to a men's rites of passage. 00:05:15.060 --> 00:05:21.060 So we had just been fully immersed in our daughter getting married. 00:05:20.460 --> 00:05:28.460 To a wonderful man on the other end of the country and who grew up in the environment that we're living in now. 00:05:28.460 --> 00:05:34.379 And I really was looking to have a really close relationship with him. 00:05:34.039 --> 00:05:41.639 But I suddenly realized that I'd been very accustomed to having work relationships, professional relationships with folks. 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:46.360 And I really didn't feel like I had the tools really to kind of 00:05:46.760 --> 00:05:49.960 build a relationship I really wanted to have with them at that point. 00:05:49.960 --> 00:05:51.880 And that was one factor. 00:05:51.880 --> 00:05:58.440 And so I'd asked a friend who a long time friend who I'd known forever who and I just kind of said, you know 00:05:58.539 --> 00:06:00.300 Do you have any thoughts, any ideas on this? 00:06:00.300 --> 00:06:04.860 Because he had three grown sons, and I figured he'd have some good insights. 00:06:04.860 --> 00:06:08.220 And so he had gone to the rites five years before that. 00:06:08.220 --> 00:06:10.780 And so he recommended that. 00:06:10.539 --> 00:06:19.020 And in your introduction, Brian, you mentioned the thing that I think Richard Rohr talks about, that for men, we have this thing kind of going on inside of us. 00:06:19.580 --> 00:06:21.180 It's a nagging, it's an urge. 00:06:21.760 --> 00:06:23.200 It's a feeling we can't name it. 00:06:23.200 --> 00:06:26.480 We can't really describe it, but it's something that we know needs to be addressed. 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:28.320 And I guess that's what I was kind of feeling. 00:06:28.640 --> 00:06:31.120 So you made the decision to attend the rites of passage. 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:36.480 And I know you, as a dedicated family man, you were very involved with your daughter and her life and your 00:06:36.760 --> 00:06:37.320 Grandkids. 00:06:37.320 --> 00:06:45.160 And so I imagine you told them that you were going to, you know, your wife and your daughter, and perhaps even a spiritual director advisor that you were going to the rites. 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:46.840 What was their reaction? 00:06:46.440 --> 00:06:54.200 Well, at that point, our I have to admit, our daughter was living cross country and I well, I told her about it, we didn't really get into it in detail. 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:59.199 But my wife has probably been my biggest cheerleader in terms of doing this. 00:06:59.520 --> 00:07:04.000 I mean, she was all in before I was all in, quite frankly. 00:07:03.340 --> 00:07:07.580 And, you know, we're coming up on our 53rd wedding anniversary this next month. 00:07:07.580 --> 00:07:11.340 So, you know, she knew what my journey was. 00:07:10.860 --> 00:07:16.700 And to the extent to where I mean, she drove me to Los Angeles to drop me off for my ride to the rites. 00:07:16.700 --> 00:07:19.500 So she was she was happy to be a part of that. 00:07:19.500 --> 00:07:25.420 So yeah, she's been an enthusiastic supporter of my participation in Illuman ever since. 00:07:25.020 --> 00:07:27.180 So I've never been to Camp Tamarack. 00:07:27.180 --> 00:07:34.140 I can imagine, you know, having been to some of these rites and these experiences, you're going into a more wilderness setting or natural setting for this event. 00:07:34.140 --> 00:07:38.460 I'm curious to know how you felt as you pulled up to Camp Tamarack. 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:41.879 So turns out we were the first car to arrive. 00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:44.520 I think we were actually a little early, but it was. 00:07:44.520 --> 00:07:49.960 It was up in the High Sierras, beautiful, just amazing, amazing area. 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:52.520 But yeah, it was it was it was rustic. 00:07:52.520 --> 00:08:00.919 And I guess in a way the fact of landing in a place like that, and in a way, kind of just being in nature like that, kind of relaxed me a bit. 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:05.760 Because the team was working hard and the welcome was very gracious and generous. 00:08:05.760 --> 00:08:13.760 And so I think in many ways that really put me at ease in terms of just settling in and very honestly just letting it happen. 00:08:13.740 --> 00:08:18.060 Did you have any expectations going into the riots or something you wanted to be initiated into? 00:08:18.380 --> 00:08:18.940 Wow. 00:08:18.940 --> 00:08:23.980 You know, I think really it was a matter of really being present to 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:32.240 my relationships with men throughout my life, both family, neighborhood, friends, church, all of that. 00:08:32.560 --> 00:08:38.800 And looking forward to using that as a way to really challenge me. 00:08:38.339 --> 00:08:41.219 on what my part in that would be. 00:08:41.219 --> 00:08:51.540 And I figured this would be an experience where there'd be a lot of interaction with men that would help me define that for myself a bit. 00:08:51.420 --> 00:09:01.339 And probably I figured, given that I'd spent a lot of years trying to be in control of things, it was good for me to not be in control and to not try and 00:09:01.560 --> 00:09:05.400 predict or judge or or control the expected outcome of something. 00:09:05.400 --> 00:09:07.240 And I think that part of it was really good. 00:09:07.560 --> 00:09:10.360 Yeah, that element of control, I can that resonates for me. 00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:14.520 But so I was going to ask you, is there anything that you were fearing heading into the rites? 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:28.720 Oh, I think probably you know, the you know, again, particularly you know, I had no idea what the age range of people would be and and as a kind of new elder, if you will, you know, that old thing of being embarrassed among the younger, fitter guys. 00:09:28.560 --> 00:09:29.440 And so forth. 00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:31.040 So a little bit of that. 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:36.000 I wasn't sure whether I was spiritually equipped or adept 00:09:36.140 --> 00:09:38.860 for the group that was there, I just really didn't know. 00:09:38.860 --> 00:09:41.580 And so I think probably a little bit of that was there. 00:09:41.580 --> 00:09:46.460 But I think, quite frankly, the three of us, because we picked up another fellow on the way up. 00:09:45.920 --> 00:09:48.319 And we had really a great time in the car. 00:09:48.319 --> 00:09:57.759 To some extent, it was a it was a small car, so we had all our gear in there and I think it was kind of like the the proverbial clown car as we kind of made our way up the mountain. 00:09:57.040 --> 00:09:58.320 And but we had a good time. 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:00.160 But I think that really kind of helped in many ways. 00:10:00.160 --> 00:10:11.519 I'm really glad I look back on that and I think that was a great way to start the event for I actually recommend to people, you know, try and try and find somebody to buddy up with on your journey to the rites. 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:20.600 Yeah, so I don't like to just glaze over the entire event, but so it's a four night, you know, five day parts of five days event. 00:10:20.060 --> 00:10:25.340 You know, it's a big experience, but at some point it does come to an end and it's time for you now to head out. 00:10:25.340 --> 00:10:29.820 And like you said, you carpooled with some guys up to Cap Tamarack, so you were leaving with other men. 00:10:29.820 --> 00:10:31.180 But I'm curious to know how you 00:10:31.459 --> 00:10:36.180 Felt immediately after the rites, if not just a few hours, maybe the day or two after that. 00:10:36.180 --> 00:10:40.100 The term that just comes to mind is: I was really jazzed. 00:10:40.100 --> 00:10:45.700 I was less tired than I thought I would be, even though sleep was certainly not a big part of the time. 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:53.360 I was excited about continuing the work, continuing the relationships, following up with the men who were there. 00:10:53.519 --> 00:11:00.560 As I could, and there are a number of them that I have been able to stay in touch with 11 years later 00:11:00.660 --> 00:11:02.660 So yeah, I was excited. 00:11:02.660 --> 00:11:09.940 And the good thing was that I was able to connect right away with a local chapter and continue that shortly after we got back. 00:11:10.260 --> 00:11:15.220 So what has changed in your life practically, relationally, spiritually, since Making Your rites? 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:23.760 Well, I think one thing that was I haven't touched upon that was a completely new experience for me was really contemplation. 00:11:23.380 --> 00:11:34.420 that first contemplative set we had, the first mooring, it was when they could still have a fire in that area, which sadly is not so much the case anymore. 00:11:33.980 --> 00:11:35.020 there in California. 00:11:35.020 --> 00:11:42.460 But to this day, when I have a set, I will sensorily remember the smell of that fire as I do a set. 00:11:42.959 --> 00:11:49.440 And that really opened the door for me in terms of a more full and rich contemplative practice as part of my life. 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:52.240 That was really the opening for me at that point. 00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:54.640 And to do it with a group of men altogether 00:11:55.160 --> 00:11:57.800 like that was really special for me. 00:11:57.800 --> 00:12:03.880 And even though I do individual work, I mean, I really find the group practice to be particularly 00:12:03.940 --> 00:12:05.140 powerful for me. 00:12:05.140 --> 00:12:14.020 And I think the other would be really looking at, I think, broader relationships with men that wouldn't normally be part of my 00:12:14.259 --> 00:12:16.100 community or circle, if you will. 00:12:16.100 --> 00:12:20.339 I've that's been something that I've really appreciated coming out of it. 00:12:20.339 --> 00:12:22.740 And it really kind of opened the door for that. 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:27.160 Yeah, you mentioned several times the significance of developing relationships, especially with men. 00:12:27.160 --> 00:12:34.040 So I'm curious to know how have your conversations with men and how have your relationships with men gone since it's the rites? 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:42.440 So I'm an introvert by nature, and so I'm not out there kind of beating the bushes so much, and I'm not a joiner necessarily. 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:47.800 So I think it's still a continuing work in progress for me in terms of how best to navigate 00:12:48.220 --> 00:12:50.620 that relationship territory. 00:12:50.620 --> 00:12:58.780 One of the things it has done is it's challenged me to take the initiative more in reaching out and connecting 00:12:59.319 --> 00:13:01.959 not waiting for the invitation per se. 00:13:01.959 --> 00:13:07.880 One of the things it's done, it's allowed me to feel more comfortable just showing up places sometimes where I don't necessarily know anything. 00:13:07.880 --> 00:13:10.440 And I think that's how you and I met. 00:13:10.260 --> 00:13:12.260 quite frankly, where I just showed up. 00:13:12.260 --> 00:13:14.020 And so I really value that. 00:13:14.420 --> 00:13:22.500 So how long did it take you or when did you begin to realize the impact of the rites on your life and on your spiritual journey? 00:13:22.579 --> 00:13:29.380 you know, it's different aspects of it have have emerged or blossomed at different times, quite frankly. 00:13:29.380 --> 00:13:30.579 I think probably the 00:13:30.860 --> 00:13:34.140 Contemplative practice was probably one of the most immediate. 00:13:34.140 --> 00:13:37.500 The other thing that came out over the course of that work was 00:13:38.540 --> 00:13:41.100 the absence of grief work in my life. 00:13:41.100 --> 00:13:45.980 I realized profoundly that I had a lot of that work still to do. 00:13:45.980 --> 00:13:52.380 And I did kind of get engaged with that in some different ways almost immediately after 00:13:52.540 --> 00:13:53.660 after the rites. 00:13:54.060 --> 00:13:57.660 That was probably the more most powerful one initially. 00:13:57.899 --> 00:14:04.459 Have the rites changed your understanding of masculinity, initiation, even the male journey through life? 00:14:04.520 --> 00:14:12.360 I don't know if it's changed a Brian as much as expanded it and and affirmed in some respects. 00:14:12.140 --> 00:14:20.060 You know, I in my working life, I was exposed in many different ways to the consequences of toxic 00:14:20.259 --> 00:14:25.220 masculinity and its impacts on people and workplaces and communities. 00:14:25.220 --> 00:14:28.339 And so I've always had a concern for that. 00:14:28.339 --> 00:14:31.300 And I think maybe the rites gave me more 00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:38.980 Language on how to describe that and how to engage it when I do engage it, if that makes sense. 00:14:38.980 --> 00:14:39.700 But that's 00:14:40.040 --> 00:14:41.959 Yeah, that would be one thing. 00:14:41.959 --> 00:14:48.040 Yeah, you know, we came to know each other because you showed up at a writing retreat that we did in Ohio a few years ago 00:14:47.940 --> 00:14:51.220 And I know you as a man who's been active in the Illuman community. 00:14:51.220 --> 00:14:58.900 We were talking about how you had participated as an initiator in the rites where Mike Clawson, one of our previous guests, had made his rites. 00:14:58.420 --> 00:15:01.699 And I know you've been involved in so many different things. 00:15:01.699 --> 00:15:04.259 Have you also been involved in the elder rites of passage? 00:15:04.259 --> 00:15:04.819 Yes. 00:15:04.819 --> 00:15:06.420 When did you do that? 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:08.480 Let's see, that was 2023. 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:20.720 And can I ask you to kind of just tell us why you went on to do the EROP and then maybe just give give men an understanding of what's the difference between the elder rites and the men's rites and why you took that step? 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:24.800 Well, I think I'd actually been considering for some time. 00:15:25.040 --> 00:15:32.880 I was aw when we were still living in Southern California, I became aware of the fact that it was being developed and was being offered. 00:15:32.760 --> 00:15:38.440 And I was interested at that point, but then our move occurred and the pandemic occurred and all that sort of stuff. 00:15:38.440 --> 00:15:43.320 I think what I'd understood it to be before I went was really not a 00:15:43.820 --> 00:15:56.620 Not a repeat of the MROP or even necessarily a building on the MROP, but taking a lot of the same ritual and elements of the format of the MROP, but putting it in the context of 00:15:56.940 --> 00:16:04.780 Of work that was specifically for us to do as elders, and not necessarily even by virtue of age 00:16:04.740 --> 00:16:17.620 And again, I also learned from other men that I talked to that there was some not more, but different kinds of attention to grief work there, which I think was profound for me. 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:27.360 also found that it built upon some of the work that I did do at the MROP, but I think that was on an individual more my own individual basis. 00:16:27.319 --> 00:16:35.240 Again, I found the rituals there to be particularly meaningful and powerful for me at that stage for me in elderhood. 00:16:34.540 --> 00:16:44.459 I think the thing that's kind of interesting, Brian, is that for that age group, your needs and the points of intersection of the rites with your life 00:16:44.820 --> 00:16:58.580 Do change based on how you're moving through that elder journey by virtue of whether you're still working, what your family relationships are, your marital or significant other relationships are, what your health. 00:16:58.300 --> 00:17:05.580 is like, because I think part of what you're now dealing with is some of those issues of mortality that we all have to wrestle with. 00:17:05.580 --> 00:17:07.820 So I found that to be profound there. 00:17:07.820 --> 00:17:10.060 And so I was at a different stage with that 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:13.360 when I did the elder rites than I was when when I went to the MROP. 00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:20.880 Yeah, I found it interesting that in recent years they've developed what they call the Elder's Weave to allow men and women to both participate in that. 00:17:20.560 --> 00:17:26.160 You know, my understanding is that the journey for men and women kind of converges as they get into those later years. 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:27.600 Is that your experience as well? 00:17:28.660 --> 00:17:30.980 I have not participated in the weave. 00:17:31.460 --> 00:17:35.539 Mine was exclusively men, so I don't know that I can speak to that. 00:17:35.860 --> 00:17:39.940 I have a spouse who's extraordinarily active in her spiritual life. 00:17:39.940 --> 00:17:42.179 She's a spiritual director herself. 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:48.520 And so we've had a chance to very actively partner in a lot of this work together. 00:17:48.520 --> 00:17:52.680 So I definitely would agree with you that I think those things do definitely come together. 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:53.960 And I presume that 00:17:54.140 --> 00:18:03.180 that since I've understood a lot of men have done the elder weave with their spouse, with their partner, that that's been a very powerful process for them 00:18:03.140 --> 00:18:09.860 You touched on something there that I think must be awful helpful, is the fact that your spouse is very engaged in her spiritual journey as well. 00:18:09.860 --> 00:18:13.140 I imagine that that makes it a little bit easier for you as well. 00:18:12.660 --> 00:18:16.260 Easier and it holds you a little bit more accountable as well. 00:18:16.260 --> 00:18:16.740 Yeah. 00:18:16.740 --> 00:18:23.780 So, you know, one of the aspects of the rites of passage that I think is so important is that it usually clears some space for 00:18:24.220 --> 00:18:28.460 a man to get more in touch with his gifts and who he is authentically. 00:18:28.460 --> 00:18:38.300 And I'm wondering, you know, after you've gotten involved in this and you've been around for about a decade, has it awakened some passions in you or have you found some gifts that you didn't know you had? 00:18:38.919 --> 00:18:43.559 Yeah, I think, or some gifts that I found I could express in different ways. 00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:45.639 I think I spent a lot of my 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:57.520 my working life kind of being in the background or being somewhat invisible in some ways and not really putting myself in a position of people knowing much about me. 00:18:57.019 --> 00:18:59.260 Quite frankly, that was kind of the nature of my work. 00:18:59.260 --> 00:19:06.700 So I think being a little bit more vulnerable about that and being more comfortable stepping out because the role of being a 00:19:07.060 --> 00:19:12.500 a stoker, for example, helping to guide councils and so forth in the MRP. 00:19:12.500 --> 00:19:17.140 And I think I did that for you at the Writing Retreat. 00:19:16.460 --> 00:19:22.780 that that's something that I both enjoy doing, but I also feel like it's something that I bring some gifts to. 00:19:22.780 --> 00:19:26.220 And so I've been trying to step into that more. 00:19:26.220 --> 00:19:27.740 And that's been great. 00:19:27.740 --> 00:19:31.020 That's been a wonderful gift for me. 00:19:30.540 --> 00:19:31.180 Absolutely. 00:19:31.180 --> 00:19:33.340 Council is such an important part of this work. 00:19:33.340 --> 00:19:37.180 And I think that's why Illuman has done more work around council training. 00:19:37.180 --> 00:19:40.220 So being a gifted stoker for council is wonderful. 00:19:40.220 --> 00:19:41.820 Yes, thank you for that. 00:19:41.460 --> 00:19:50.980 I do want to ask you also, since you've had both the elder rites experience and the men's rites of passage experience, for the man listening and he's considering whether or not to participate in rites, can you 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:56.760 Give him some advice about participating in either rites of passage and how to make that choice. 00:19:57.160 --> 00:20:01.240 I've known men who've done both in a short period of time. 00:20:00.919 --> 00:20:03.000 And that's worked for them. 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:13.400 I mean, one thing that comes immediately to mind for me, Brian, is that since I was already kind of an elder by virtue of age and life position when I went to the MRO P. 00:20:13.280 --> 00:20:25.280 One of the other things I should mention that I forgot to, that I was also looking to make sure I was having relationships with men of a variety of ages and situations in their life. 00:20:24.540 --> 00:20:29.500 That I wasn't just with men of my own age or my own position, if you will. 00:20:29.500 --> 00:20:36.300 So that was one of the things I really got out of the MROP: being able to be with men who were on their journey at all ages. 00:20:36.300 --> 00:20:39.020 And so that was one aspect of the MROP. 00:20:38.940 --> 00:20:41.659 that I really valued and really got. 00:20:41.659 --> 00:20:47.019 The EROP was obviously brought together men of more of a similar generation. 00:20:47.019 --> 00:20:49.899 And so being able to hear their stories and 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:54.240 how they were approaching that stage of life was really valuable as well. 00:20:54.240 --> 00:21:00.560 So I think it may be a matter of looking at your life now, which area seems to need tending. 00:21:00.560 --> 00:21:03.600 So I want to ask you, what keeps you coming back to the rites? 00:21:03.600 --> 00:21:04.720 What keeps you coming back? 00:21:04.940 --> 00:21:09.260 I learned something new about myself, my journey. 00:21:09.260 --> 00:21:13.980 I find there are things that get awakened to me that I wasn't even aware of. 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:15.880 by virtue of participating again. 00:21:16.200 --> 00:21:21.880 I think the rites are so rich that you don't fully get it all at one time. 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:23.720 There will be some aspects of it that 00:21:23.840 --> 00:21:28.400 really hit home the first time, but don't come back until later. 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:32.880 And so and then I guess the other is every time it's a different group of men. 00:21:32.580 --> 00:21:42.020 And I find that just awesome to be able to engage with another group of men and just realize how quickly we do engage with each other 00:21:41.840 --> 00:21:45.679 by virtue of the way the way the rites work and touch us. 00:21:45.679 --> 00:21:47.840 So so yeah, it's a gift every time. 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:50.160 Yeah, I'm hoping I can ask you a personal question now. 00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:50.960 How is your 00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:53.000 Your relationship with your son-in-law? 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:54.840 Ah, great question, Brian. 00:21:54.840 --> 00:21:57.000 Actually, it's really good. 00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:57.960 It's really good. 00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:02.200 I mean, we still have very different backgrounds and lifestyles and 00:22:02.620 --> 00:22:03.420 and comforts. 00:22:03.420 --> 00:22:14.140 But I think we just actually got back from a family vacation with all of all of the family and grandparents and multi-generational, and we had a great time together. 00:22:13.740 --> 00:22:17.900 And I think we have a good deal of mutual respect for each other. 00:22:17.900 --> 00:22:19.980 And so, yeah, it's good. 00:22:19.980 --> 00:22:21.820 I feel very comfortable. 00:22:21.820 --> 00:22:25.660 I am very thankful that he's the man in our daughter's life. 00:22:25.040 --> 00:22:27.520 That's something that I do not take for granted at all. 00:22:27.760 --> 00:22:29.360 I'm quite thankful for. 00:22:29.360 --> 00:22:31.040 Yeah, that's wonderful. 00:22:31.040 --> 00:22:32.480 So I'm going to close this off here. 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:35.040 I'm going to read a poem. 00:22:33.900 --> 00:22:38.300 I've only done this once before, and I'd just like you to after I read it, to comment on it. 00:22:38.620 --> 00:22:39.500 I'm going to read it twice. 00:22:39.500 --> 00:22:40.780 You'll know the poem. 00:22:40.940 --> 00:22:48.140 But since you came to our writing retreat and I know you as a writer and a lover of poetry, I thought this would be an appropriate way to end our conversation. 00:22:48.300 --> 00:22:51.020 It's called The Way It Is by William Stafford. 00:22:51.340 --> 00:22:52.860 There's a thread you follow. 00:22:52.860 --> 00:22:56.540 It goes among things that change, but it doesn't change. 00:22:56.540 --> 00:22:59.500 People wonder about what you are pursuing. 00:22:59.340 --> 00:23:01.980 You have to explain about the thread. 00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:04.140 But it is hard for others to see. 00:23:04.140 --> 00:23:06.860 While you hold it, you can't get lost. 00:23:06.860 --> 00:23:08.140 Tragedies happen 00:23:08.419 --> 00:23:12.100 People get hurt or die, and you suffer and get old. 00:23:12.100 --> 00:23:15.380 Nothing you can do can stop time's unfolding. 00:23:15.380 --> 00:23:18.260 You don't ever let go of the thread. 00:23:18.580 --> 00:23:19.460 Hmph. 00:23:19.860 --> 00:23:21.539 Say a few words about that. 00:23:21.700 --> 00:23:32.180 for me, the thread that is so present for me is the relationship with my wife, with Amy. 00:23:31.940 --> 00:23:36.820 There are times I look back and wonder, why the heck is she still choosing to be with me? 00:23:36.820 --> 00:23:39.059 And I am so thankful for that choice that she's made. 00:23:39.059 --> 00:23:42.899 She's been with me through the entire journey, the ups, the downs. 00:23:42.540 --> 00:23:53.900 challenges with addiction and so forth and and the fact of being able to be be spouses, be partners, to have been parents together, to now be grandparents together. 00:23:54.300 --> 00:23:56.060 That that's the thread that 00:23:56.340 --> 00:23:58.260 Is ever present for me. 00:23:58.260 --> 00:23:58.740 Thank you. 00:23:58.740 --> 00:23:59.620 That's so beautiful. 00:23:59.620 --> 00:24:00.419 53 years. 00:24:00.419 --> 00:24:01.620 Congratulations. 00:24:01.620 --> 00:24:04.820 You know, brother, I want to thank you deeply for your honesty. 00:24:05.260 --> 00:24:12.780 your courage and vulnerability and you've given us a window on your experience at the MROP and really just more broadly on your life journey. 00:24:12.780 --> 00:24:14.460 So I love you, brother, and I look forward to seeing you. 00:24:14.539 --> 00:24:15.260 I love you too. 00:24:15.260 --> 00:24:16.460 Thank you so much, Brian. 00:24:16.539 --> 00:24:17.900 Appreciate it. 00:24:17.460 --> 00:24:24.660 For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. 00:24:24.660 --> 00:24:32.020 The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six. 00:24:32.140 --> 00:24:42.140 While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since twenty twelve Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world. 00:24:41.560 --> 00:24:47.800 To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return by Richard Rohr. 00:24:47.800 --> 00:24:52.760 If you are ready to make your rites, you can find details and registration information at Illuman dot 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:53.320 org 00:24:53.540 --> 00:24:56.020 Slash MROP or Illuman dot 00:24:56.100 --> 00:24:57.780 org slash events. 00:24:57.780 --> 00:25:02.020 Finally, if you enjoyed this podcast, don't forget to share it with a friend. 00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:12.399 You can find all our episodes and subscribe in your favorite podcast app at m-r-o-p talk dot com, and you can visit me at Brian's Poems dot com or Brian Mueller dot com. 00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:15.160 Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP. 00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:18.280 Until next time, brothers, stay present.