WEBVTT 00:00:03.760 --> 00:00:11.559 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:11.559 --> 00:00:13.000 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:18.360 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.360 --> 00:00:24.060 I am your host, and in most episodes I sit down with one man who has made his rites and I invite him to share his story. 00:00:24.060 --> 00:00:26.539 But for this episode we're doing something different. 00:00:26.539 --> 00:00:32.300 I'm sharing a podcast produced and hosted by my friend Jeff King called Nine Lives with Jeff King Live Your Best One. 00:00:32.300 --> 00:00:41.200 Nine Lives is a podcast dedicated to helping people build stronger, healthier connections with others through a focus on personal growth, spirituality, and relationship skills. 00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:44.480 The primary tool for this transformational journey is the Enneagram. 00:00:44.480 --> 00:00:51.240 The Enneagram is a framework for understanding personality that categorizes human behavior into nine distinct interconnected types. 00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:54.520 You've no doubt heard the term Enneagram on this podcast before. 00:00:54.520 --> 00:01:03.640 Many of the men I've interviewed know their Enneagram number or type and have found it to be a helpful tool on their spiritual journey, especially in terms of personal understanding and improving relationships. 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:14.060 This episode of Nine Lives with Jeff King is titled Return to Presence and involves a conversation I had with Jeff about my own experience living life through the perspective of an Enneagram Type One. 00:01:14.060 --> 00:01:15.180 often called the Reformer. 00:01:15.340 --> 00:01:23.900 This podcast is truly a labor of love, inspired by my own transformative journey and experience at the Men's Rites of Passage and my ongoing commitment to the Illuman Community. 00:01:23.900 --> 00:01:27.260 I hope you'll enjoy the special presentation of Follow Me to the MROP 00:01:27.560 --> 00:01:30.200 and that you'll visit Jeff's website at transmuto dot 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:41.100 org, that's T-R-A-N-S-M-U-T-O dot org, to learn about the Narrative Enneagram and about my friend Jeff, who's devoted his life to helping others through ministry, counseling, and coaching. 00:01:41.100 --> 00:01:45.820 My sincere thanks to Jeff for allowing me to share this episode of Nine Lives with Jeff King. 00:01:45.820 --> 00:01:48.380 Without further ado, let's begin. 00:01:48.900 --> 00:01:54.820 Welcome to Nine Lives with Jeff King, the podcast that explores all things Enneagram. 00:01:54.820 --> 00:01:57.620 Now, here's your host, Jeff King. 00:01:59.020 --> 00:02:08.240 Today, as my guest on the episode, is a new friend of mine that we met at a very fascinating festival called the Wild Goose Festival. 00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:11.680 Brian, thank you so much for being a guest today. 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:17.900 Just introduce yourself, tell a little bit about who you are, where you're at, what you do, that sort of thing. 00:02:17.900 --> 00:02:18.780 Thanks, Jeff. 00:02:18.780 --> 00:02:20.460 It's great to be here. 00:02:20.460 --> 00:02:23.900 I really appreciate the invitation to have this conversation. 00:02:24.220 --> 00:02:25.580 As you said, my name is Brian Mueller. 00:02:25.580 --> 00:02:27.340 I'm from the southwest Ohio. 00:02:27.340 --> 00:02:32.220 I grew up in Cincinnati, but now I live in a suburb of Dayton called Centerville. 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:33.040 Let's see here. 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:39.360 I don't know even where to begin sometimes, but I do a lot of communications type of work. 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:43.760 I'm really privileged at this point in my life to do some work that I really feel has a lot of value. 00:02:43.760 --> 00:02:45.920 I work within the organization of Illuman and 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:52.360 I work specifically for a client who wrote a book called Choosing Presence, which is about meditation and contemplative prayer. 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:54.600 So I work a lot on outreach for that. 00:02:54.600 --> 00:02:57.640 So that's really my focus at this point in time. 00:02:58.500 --> 00:02:59.700 I love the Enneagram. 00:02:59.700 --> 00:03:01.700 The Enneagram has become very significant in my life. 00:03:01.700 --> 00:03:07.860 In fact, just earlier this year, I was looking for a new spiritual director and I was asking around to see if I could find somebody that. 00:03:07.860 --> 00:03:14.739 That knew the Enneagram because I thought that would be a valuable tool in relationship to the spiritual direction. 00:03:14.739 --> 00:03:16.340 And I found a woman that did know that. 00:03:16.340 --> 00:03:17.060 And so it's 00:03:17.140 --> 00:03:19.540 It's come into play in spiritual direction as well. 00:03:19.540 --> 00:03:26.180 But I think it's kind of interesting how I came upon the Enneagram about, it's been a little more than 20 years ago. 00:03:26.180 --> 00:03:30.019 I went to see a counselor, and at that time of my life, I was. 00:03:30.160 --> 00:03:34.000 Around 30, and I was wondering what was next in my life. 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:37.200 I wasn't married yet, and I was kind of feeling a little bit stuck. 00:03:37.200 --> 00:03:40.480 And I always thought it was interesting because as I would talk to her 00:03:40.640 --> 00:03:45.599 Over time, she would give me these little handouts with affirmations and things, and they were just so spot-on. 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:47.280 They seemed to fit me just right. 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:52.560 And in retrospect, a few years later, when I actually learned what the Enneagram was and a little bit more about it. 00:03:52.560 --> 00:04:02.799 I realized that she had, through conversing with me, had kind of typed me and was giving me helpful clues and affirmations and things that might help me with along my journey. 00:04:02.799 --> 00:04:06.879 And then, you know, over the course of time, it really is, it, 00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:12.520 You have to progress, I think, through the Enneagram for it to grow and to become much deeper for you. 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:15.560 So eventually I did take a test and figured out my type. 00:04:16.139 --> 00:04:18.940 I started going to Enneagram retreats. 00:04:18.940 --> 00:04:27.360 At this point, I think I've been to four or so, but I've mainly been taught by teachers that have been certified at the Enneagram Institute. 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:30.159 And, you know, I've learned about it through that way. 00:04:30.159 --> 00:04:37.520 But then this summer, I met you at the Wild Goose Festival, as you said, in North Carolina, and started learning about the Narrative Enneagram. 00:04:37.520 --> 00:04:40.560 And I should have known about the Narrative Enneagram because my mom. 00:04:40.900 --> 00:04:44.500 Knew about the Enneagram years and years ago, and she followed Helen Palmer. 00:04:44.500 --> 00:04:45.380 Oh, cool. 00:04:45.380 --> 00:04:49.860 And I understood that Helen Palmer always came to Cincinnati, but that was not my way into it. 00:04:49.860 --> 00:04:50.660 So, anyway, I'm 00:04:50.660 --> 00:04:57.620 I'm now kind of learning about the Narrative Enneagram and really benefiting from hearing people tell about their types. 00:04:57.620 --> 00:05:00.180 It really is giving dimensionality to the types that I didn't 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:01.840 That's great. 00:05:01.840 --> 00:05:04.720 So, how close are you to the Institute? 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:06.800 Is it that in Ohio as well? 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:08.400 No, I think that's in New York somewhere. 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:08.960 Is it in New York? 00:05:09.200 --> 00:05:09.920 Oh, I think you're right. 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:11.920 Yeah, I don't know why I was thinking it was in Ohio. 00:05:12.780 --> 00:05:13.259 Yeah. 00:05:13.259 --> 00:05:19.419 There are some deep Enneagram roots here because Father Richard Rohr, who was in Cincinnati for years, taught the Enneagram. 00:05:19.419 --> 00:05:19.900 Right. 00:05:19.900 --> 00:05:26.039 And yeah, I know that there's a lot of, you know, in Southwest Ohio, there's a lot of people that were familiar with it and teaching it for years. 00:05:26.039 --> 00:05:26.440 Yeah. 00:05:26.440 --> 00:05:26.840 Cool. 00:05:26.840 --> 00:05:27.400 Cool. 00:05:27.400 --> 00:05:29.960 So, drum roll, what type do you lead with? 00:05:29.960 --> 00:05:32.360 And talk a little bit about that. 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:36.620 Yeah, I lead with type one on the Enneagram. 00:05:36.620 --> 00:05:40.460 And over the years, I've never had any doubt about that. 00:05:41.020 --> 00:05:45.900 Once I learned about my type and things like that, it just seemed to fit so naturally. 00:05:46.060 --> 00:05:51.500 It always surprised me for many years why other people might have some confusion about their type. 00:05:51.500 --> 00:05:55.020 For me, it seemed to be such an easy fit. 00:05:55.020 --> 00:05:58.300 Not that I wanted to embrace everything about it, but 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:03.120 Yeah, you know, the way I kind of approach the world is as a type one. 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:07.360 It fits me if you talk about things like being a 00:06:08.139 --> 00:06:15.180 You know, it's very cliche, but to say perfectionist, I think to be a perfectionist in very certain ways is really part of my personality. 00:06:15.180 --> 00:06:16.540 Being a fixer. 00:06:16.980 --> 00:06:18.180 Looking to fix things. 00:06:18.180 --> 00:06:26.660 I have to look at things not always as in a state of needing repair, needing some sort of attention, even myself. 00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:32.600 I think you could get addicted to self-help work if you're a one on the Enneagram because you're always trying to fix something. 00:06:33.960 --> 00:06:40.920 That critic, that inner critic, it's not something that I was aware that other people didn't have or didn't have so loudly. 00:06:41.280 --> 00:06:45.599 There's always been that voice in my head that's telling me to do better. 00:06:45.919 --> 00:06:47.120 You can do better on this. 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:50.080 This is driving me forward in ways. 00:06:50.840 --> 00:06:54.280 That sometimes is just too much, you know, sometimes it is overwhelming. 00:06:54.280 --> 00:06:57.879 So, I'm constantly trying to silence that voice in my head 00:06:58.060 --> 00:07:03.900 And I've learned through some other kind of work that, you know, I have a very good two-wing. 00:07:03.900 --> 00:07:06.540 You know, I have that helper type of wing. 00:07:06.540 --> 00:07:11.900 So that kind of lends itself well to who I am as or how I manifest as a one. 00:07:12.520 --> 00:07:25.160 Honestly, you know, learning about my codependency through some 12-step work, you know, I really realized that one with a two-wing is a very good codependent helper fixture type of person. 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:25.919 So, yeah. 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:32.240 Talk a little bit about that in terms of always something to fix, and we can get 00:07:32.840 --> 00:07:33.800 I like that term. 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:36.440 We get addicted to fixing. 00:07:36.440 --> 00:07:38.200 I'm always looking at that. 00:07:38.440 --> 00:07:43.560 What helps you to kind of hold that tension between addressing what 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:47.600 legitimately needs that we want to work on to grow. 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:52.800 But then the other side of that would we become overly fixated on 00:07:53.420 --> 00:07:57.420 Focusing on what needs to be fixed and just always feeling driven with that. 00:07:57.420 --> 00:08:00.140 How do you work with that tension? 00:08:00.860 --> 00:08:02.060 Wow, it's taken a long time. 00:08:02.060 --> 00:08:05.260 You know, I'm now in my 50s, and I think it's been a journey. 00:08:05.500 --> 00:08:11.740 You know, seeing that holy perfection is really important for me as a one, and just realizing that everything is 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:14.400 Is fine just as it is. 00:08:14.400 --> 00:08:17.600 And it doesn't need my attention or me to fix it. 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:22.560 But on the flip side of that, too, I do want to embrace that part of myself that can come in and 00:08:22.660 --> 00:08:28.340 To certain situations, even my work, and really try to improve something or do a good job. 00:08:28.340 --> 00:08:30.660 I try to honor that aspect of my personality. 00:08:31.139 --> 00:08:33.700 In different projects and things like that. 00:08:34.339 --> 00:08:37.779 You know, in my career, I spent a lot of time in technology and working on things. 00:08:37.779 --> 00:08:43.060 And so sometimes it's just helpful for me to pick something up, like a broken computer or something like that. 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:46.960 And it's very therapeutic to just kind of fix that. 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:52.800 But at the other side of things, you know, it's also very helpful to me to just spend time with people. 00:08:53.280 --> 00:08:58.400 Community has been really helpful to me in kind of coming to terms with that part of my personality and just. 00:08:58.640 --> 00:09:06.640 Seeing the ways that you know I am broken myself and other people are, and that we can just come together and kind of be human together. 00:09:06.640 --> 00:09:12.240 So there's a great song called it was a folk musician named Joe Purdy. 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:14.080 And he has a song called, I wrote it down. 00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:16.080 It's called Can't Get It Right Today. 00:09:16.400 --> 00:09:19.840 And the lyric of the song is just like, you know, hey, I can't get it right today. 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:20.720 And it's kind of this surrender. 00:09:20.800 --> 00:09:22.240 Like, I guess I'm just going to give it up. 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:24.160 You know, I'm just going to let it go. 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:28.240 And if I can do that, then I'm usually in a pretty good place. 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:32.399 And realizing that, you know, hey, most people are doing their best, and so am I. 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:33.600 And that's enough. 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:35.440 That really is enough. 00:09:35.760 --> 00:09:37.360 Yeah, I love that. 00:09:37.520 --> 00:09:43.520 I think that that idea of for type ones is what is good enough. 00:09:43.700 --> 00:09:44.260 Yeah. 00:09:44.260 --> 00:09:45.779 And can I live with that? 00:09:46.580 --> 00:09:51.140 I know for some, some ones, when I bring that up, it's like their lips turn blue just 00:09:51.180 --> 00:09:51.980 To think about it. 00:09:51.980 --> 00:09:56.380 It's like, oh, it can't just be enough because that feels like I'm letting myself off the hook. 00:09:56.380 --> 00:09:57.579 I got to get it right. 00:09:58.300 --> 00:09:59.019 Right. 00:09:59.040 --> 00:09:59.279 Yeah. 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:02.080 I think a lot about the type one on the Enneagram. 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:07.440 There's a couple types on the Enneagram that I think are really kind of red hot, and I think it's the one and the eight. 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:12.080 And I think that people that are probably close to ones in eight, they can really feel that intensity. 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:14.240 I liken it to the sun. 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:18.080 I feel like if you go near these people sometimes, especially if we're not. 00:10:18.140 --> 00:10:20.620 Function at a really high level, you might feel burnt. 00:10:20.620 --> 00:10:25.740 I mean, the eight radiates that heat outwards and generates that heat in the world. 00:10:25.740 --> 00:10:30.140 And the one has that in such an internal intensity of heat. 00:10:30.140 --> 00:10:33.740 And if you're close to a one, you're going to feel that. 00:10:33.740 --> 00:10:35.820 You know, I'm married my second time. 00:10:35.820 --> 00:10:37.420 I'm on my second marriage. 00:10:37.740 --> 00:10:43.340 And then, and that was really a wonderful thing to happen to me, honestly, is divorce, because. 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:47.839 When that happened more than 10 years ago now, I mean, it was something that I couldn't fix. 00:10:47.839 --> 00:10:49.839 It was something that I couldn't control. 00:10:49.839 --> 00:10:52.380 And it was something that I just had to let go. 00:10:52.380 --> 00:10:55.980 And moving forward, you know, and ego, you have to do some work. 00:10:55.980 --> 00:10:59.860 When you have events like that happen in your life, you really do have parts of it for sure. 00:10:59.860 --> 00:11:00.100 Yeah. 00:11:00.100 --> 00:11:00.420 Yeah. 00:11:00.420 --> 00:11:01.780 Thinking about it. 00:11:01.780 --> 00:11:13.320 And so for me, what you know, I did realize: man, I am really intense, and I can be really, really hard on those people that are closer or who I'm intimate with, and that I need to shut some of that off, at least. 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:16.360 On the other person for sure, if I can't do it on myself. 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:17.080 Yeah. 00:11:17.320 --> 00:11:25.960 I like that metaphor of the sun and the heat, how the eights radiate outward, but I do see that one taking it inward and 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:29.520 Yeah, it's just constantly churning inside. 00:11:29.520 --> 00:11:32.960 And I love, too, this idea of what is mine to fix. 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:34.960 And I'm curious for you. 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:43.120 In your process of growth and exploration and discovery, how do you discern? 00:11:43.220 --> 00:11:44.900 What is yours to fix? 00:11:44.900 --> 00:11:48.020 And what is it for you to let go of? 00:11:48.340 --> 00:11:54.260 Is there any kind of barometer within you that gives you that indication of how 00:11:55.500 --> 00:11:57.740 How you discern between the two? 00:11:58.380 --> 00:11:59.019 Yeah. 00:11:59.019 --> 00:11:59.819 You know, and it's funny. 00:11:59.819 --> 00:12:03.980 I want to say when you say what is mine to fix in Illuman the men's work that I've 00:12:04.660 --> 00:12:07.060 come upon about ten plus years ago. 00:12:07.060 --> 00:12:12.180 Illuman was an organization that was started by Father Richard Rohr, and some of your listeners will know about him. 00:12:12.180 --> 00:12:13.620 But it's been very instrumental in my life. 00:12:13.620 --> 00:12:19.220 And in Illuman, one of the questions that is are we are constantly posing to men and to ourselves is what is mine to do? 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:19.880 Yeah. 00:12:19.880 --> 00:12:25.480 And then in Al-Anon, I learned the question, or I learned the expression, my own life deserves my attention. 00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:28.820 And to me, those are very much along similar lines. 00:12:28.820 --> 00:12:35.860 And so, you know, when I'm in a healthy frame of mind, I'm easily able to kind of discern those things, you know. 00:12:36.260 --> 00:12:38.500 Is this something that I need to take care of? 00:12:38.500 --> 00:12:39.060 Is this 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:46.280 My, you know, what really weighs heavily on me, and I wonder it might be a thing for type ones, is responsibility. 00:12:46.280 --> 00:12:46.840 Oh, yes. 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:51.360 You know, and so I have to always ask myself: do I need to be taking responsibility for this? 00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:52.560 Or for this person. 00:12:52.560 --> 00:13:00.040 And when it manifests in a codependent way, I really am taking responsibility for other people and their actions in ways that are not healthy. 00:13:00.040 --> 00:13:07.399 So usually it is a matter of, you know, in order to make healthier decisions in my life, in my relationships, you need time. 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:08.519 You need space. 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:10.360 You know, you can't do everything. 00:13:10.620 --> 00:13:12.300 In such a hurry. 00:13:12.300 --> 00:13:18.140 The one is I'm a very instinctual person and I trust my instincts. 00:13:18.140 --> 00:13:22.120 You know, you can go to a restaurant with me, it doesn't take me forever to order. 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:26.920 You know, I look at the menu and something will hit me right away. 00:13:26.920 --> 00:13:29.720 And, you know, others might really struggle, especially with a long menu. 00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:33.820 But, you know, I trust my instincts, and it's usually been a fine decision for me. 00:13:33.820 --> 00:13:41.020 But at times, I need to bring on board my head and really slow down and ask those questions. 00:13:41.020 --> 00:13:42.820 Not something I like to do. 00:13:42.820 --> 00:13:45.860 Because I like to just move through the world instinctually. 00:13:45.860 --> 00:13:52.980 And, but if I can kind of bring along my head and heart in a positive way too, then usually I kind of show up more completely. 00:13:54.100 --> 00:13:55.940 You know, I'll be at my best. 00:13:55.940 --> 00:13:58.500 So, yeah, that's great. 00:13:58.820 --> 00:14:02.020 Techniques, I hate the word techniques because it feels 00:14:02.220 --> 00:14:10.300 Too arbitrary and manipulative sometimes, but ways that you've discovered that helps you to 00:14:11.420 --> 00:14:16.860 Also, release the inner critic so that it's not always kind of chewing on you. 00:14:17.340 --> 00:14:19.660 What's been helpful there for you? 00:14:20.860 --> 00:14:27.900 You know, I think the one of the most helpful things that I did over the years is I started writing really after my divorce. 00:14:27.900 --> 00:14:29.340 I would had trouble sleeping. 00:14:29.340 --> 00:14:31.260 I would wake up in the middle of the night. 00:14:31.260 --> 00:14:34.780 And I would start reading different things. 00:14:34.780 --> 00:14:39.720 But you know, really what helped me were the mystic poets, people like Rumi and Hafiz. 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:43.000 And reading that kind of poetry and then trying to do that myself. 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:50.140 Because over the last 10 plus years, I wrote so much poetry, just getting it out of my head. 00:14:50.140 --> 00:14:51.660 and onto paper. 00:14:51.660 --> 00:14:57.020 And I it ended up with, oh gosh, I got like 10 self-published books of poetry. 00:14:57.020 --> 00:14:57.420 Really? 00:14:57.420 --> 00:14:57.900 Wow. 00:14:57.900 --> 00:14:58.540 Yeah. 00:14:58.779 --> 00:15:08.860 And after getting that, and I haven't written as much lately, and I need to get back to it, although my life in the last year and a half or two years has really gotten so busy for me in some ways that it's been. 00:15:08.940 --> 00:15:10.860 Difficult for me to find time to do that. 00:15:10.860 --> 00:15:14.380 But I still think that's a hugely valuable practice. 00:15:16.300 --> 00:15:21.820 But yeah, I mean, I look back at, I wrote some when I was in college, you know, 30 years ago. 00:15:21.880 --> 00:15:26.920 And I don't want to dismiss that poetry as irrelevant, but it was so romantic. 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:30.120 It was just kind of, I didn't feel like I had much to say. 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:33.560 But what happens with life and experience and things like that 00:15:34.380 --> 00:15:39.020 It enriches everything we do if we bring it to bear on whatever we're doing. 00:15:39.260 --> 00:15:42.540 And that poet, my poetry now is so much deeper. 00:15:42.540 --> 00:15:45.340 It connects with other people in big ways. 00:15:46.680 --> 00:15:58.279 Even we, you know, I got encouraged by men in Illuman a few years ago to lead a writing retreat, developed a writing retreat, because some of the men were reading my poems, which I, for about five years, I published on a daily basis. 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:00.760 I would publish something called Brian's Poem of the Day. 00:16:01.540 --> 00:16:03.860 And that experience, too, to watch. 00:16:03.860 --> 00:16:09.459 So, we've been doing this, and I have a partner, Tom, who leads these retreats with me. 00:16:09.459 --> 00:16:10.180 We do them in Ohio. 00:16:10.180 --> 00:16:15.140 We had the opportunity to do one in Minnesota this year, and we're going to do one in Chicago next year. 00:16:15.140 --> 00:16:15.620 Great! 00:16:15.620 --> 00:16:16.899 Um, yeah, so excited. 00:16:16.899 --> 00:16:20.500 We bring in different poets that are influenced, but watching other men too find 00:16:21.500 --> 00:16:29.020 I mean, it's amazing to me how many people don't think that they have the ability to write or to express themselves creatively that way. 00:16:29.020 --> 00:16:30.460 And so much comes out. 00:16:30.700 --> 00:16:32.940 It's just it's been rewarding for me. 00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:34.780 And I can see it for others as well. 00:16:34.780 --> 00:16:36.220 Yeah, I can see that could be 00:16:37.880 --> 00:16:43.000 Almost strategically therapeutic for a type 1, because you live with that instinct. 00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:45.440 You're part of the gut center. 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:47.360 So, how do you access your head? 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:55.320 And you talked about reading and thinking through things, but that poetry really ties into the heart center. 00:16:55.320 --> 00:17:03.960 But you have that line to four that you can draw from that deep field, get into that. 00:17:04.600 --> 00:17:08.520 Authentic expression of what's going on in my internal world. 00:17:08.520 --> 00:17:09.800 And so I love that. 00:17:10.120 --> 00:17:11.559 You know, it's kind of funny because when 00:17:11.939 --> 00:17:19.380 Part of my type bias, I think, when I first learned about the Enneagram was type ones would be so 00:17:20.800 --> 00:17:29.040 Rigid and bent on the right-wrong dualistic thinking that I wouldn't think that artistic 00:17:29.580 --> 00:17:34.380 side of them would be very pleasant because art is not an exact science. 00:17:34.380 --> 00:17:40.380 But that line to the one, or from the one to the four, really draws that out. 00:17:40.380 --> 00:17:40.940 And actually 00:17:41.700 --> 00:17:47.860 My favorite musician-songwriter Brandi Carlile identifies as a type one, too. 00:17:47.860 --> 00:17:52.660 It's like, can't get much more artistic and expressive than her lyrics. 00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:58.600 Anyway, so yeah, so I think that's a really unique gift in that one position there. 00:17:59.800 --> 00:18:01.720 Yeah, I think it does free you up in a way. 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:04.360 I like Brandi Carlile too. 00:18:04.360 --> 00:18:07.240 You know, one of the things that's always kind of 00:18:09.040 --> 00:18:14.160 Baffled me about the Enneagram is why we don't have, we're not closer to people of our own type, perhaps. 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:14.960 And I remember 00:18:16.820 --> 00:18:20.980 Richard Rohr was doing an Enneagram talk with Russ Hudson one time. 00:18:20.980 --> 00:18:22.260 I was listening to that. 00:18:22.260 --> 00:18:23.539 And I think that's where I heard it. 00:18:23.539 --> 00:18:25.299 But Richard had said that. 00:18:25.340 --> 00:18:30.380 We don't tend to draw close to people of the same type because we can see each other's bullshit. 00:18:30.700 --> 00:18:34.700 We can call each other out on that sort of thing. 00:18:34.800 --> 00:18:42.560 And, but I will say this: people of the same type as yourself, if you know that, are really good teachers for you. 00:18:42.560 --> 00:18:44.320 They're really, really good teachers. 00:18:44.320 --> 00:18:48.720 I think this is why I've been drawn so much to Richard Rohr and his teachings over the years. 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:51.600 And I find him to be so informative. 00:18:51.600 --> 00:18:56.320 And, you know, he's, yeah, he's an intellectual. 00:18:56.320 --> 00:18:57.440 He's written more books. 00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:00.880 Some people joke that Richards never had an unpublished thought. 00:19:02.660 --> 00:19:05.059 But you know, he's he's an amazing person. 00:19:05.059 --> 00:19:08.179 And I look, and I just got finished reading Adam's Return. 00:19:08.179 --> 00:19:09.860 This is his book about male initiation. 00:19:09.860 --> 00:19:14.260 And I'd read it years ago, but I continue to participate in these events. 00:19:14.940 --> 00:19:18.620 As they come up to help other men that are going through that event for the first time. 00:19:18.620 --> 00:19:24.059 And I was reading, and I look at the bibliography and I go, oh my God, I can't believe, you know, how many books there are. 00:19:24.059 --> 00:19:26.380 And I bet Richard has read most of them. 00:19:26.380 --> 00:19:26.940 Oh, fine. 00:19:27.019 --> 00:19:27.560 You know? 00:19:27.560 --> 00:19:31.160 And I just am not that person to consume that much information. 00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:34.360 I get overwhelmed by details and all that kind of stuff. 00:19:34.360 --> 00:19:40.060 And so, you know, for me to get to me to bring my head on board, I really just need some time and space. 00:19:40.060 --> 00:19:47.740 I was talking to my spiritual director about that, and she was talking about take some breaths and pause, but even gaps in your life. 00:19:47.740 --> 00:19:54.419 Like, yeah, I'm self-employed, and I think a lot of people feel this way: it's if you're self-employed, it's really hard to take a weekend. 00:19:54.419 --> 00:19:56.500 Or to be away from your work. 00:19:56.500 --> 00:20:01.539 You know, I work at home and certainly during the pandemic, it seemed to get even worse. 00:20:01.539 --> 00:20:03.539 And being a one, I was with a two-wing. 00:20:03.539 --> 00:20:04.580 I was trying to save the world. 00:20:04.580 --> 00:20:08.820 I was doing as much as I possibly could in terms of Zoom calls and connections and things. 00:20:08.919 --> 00:20:14.200 But then I realized, yeah, just space, you know, going camping this weekend. 00:20:14.360 --> 00:20:18.820 That actually is an invitation that comes from a close friend of mine who's a seven on the Enneagram. 00:20:18.820 --> 00:20:21.620 You know, I draw close to a lot of sevens. 00:20:21.620 --> 00:20:26.900 I do enjoy their energy and the freedom that they allow themselves to experience life. 00:20:27.840 --> 00:20:31.200 It's a little overwhelming sometimes, you know, to be with sevens and things like that. 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:34.960 But at the same time, you know, that's the kind of freedom that I, that I want. 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:37.600 And so, yeah, I mean, I need to cultivate more of that. 00:20:37.600 --> 00:20:38.340 And I'm. 00:20:38.340 --> 00:20:39.059 I'm aware of that. 00:20:39.059 --> 00:20:45.220 That gets me, that brings the head on board and gives me space to read, to consider, to be thoughtful. 00:20:45.220 --> 00:20:45.780 Great. 00:20:45.780 --> 00:20:46.820 Love it. 00:20:46.820 --> 00:20:48.500 Talk a bit more about Illuman. 00:20:48.580 --> 00:20:56.340 Some of my listeners may not be familiar with that group and the movement of that and what its purpose and design is. 00:20:56.340 --> 00:20:58.019 So tell us a bit more. 00:20:58.019 --> 00:21:03.299 You know, Illuman is a community of men, for men, anybody who identifies as man. 00:21:03.299 --> 00:21:05.960 You know, that has really expanded, I think, in over the years. 00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:17.480 Richard Rohr, I'm from Cincinnati and had the, you know, I never thought this was significant, but my parents were early followers of Richard and his teachings and became part of that New Jerusalem community that he established. 00:21:18.540 --> 00:21:19.020 Yeah. 00:21:19.340 --> 00:21:19.660 Yeah. 00:21:19.660 --> 00:21:20.620 You know, I didn't. 00:21:21.580 --> 00:21:26.620 I honestly, I, Jeff, I really didn't appreciate that until more recent years of what that experience was. 00:21:26.620 --> 00:21:30.440 But it had a huge impact on my life to even my understanding of. 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:31.320 Religion and faith. 00:21:31.320 --> 00:21:37.240 You know, I grew up with a very progressive form of Catholicism, which, you know, I thought was more the Catholic Church. 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:43.639 I've been, it's been a rude awakening in some sense to see what the institutional Catholic Church is more like. 00:21:43.639 --> 00:21:43.960 But 00:21:44.540 --> 00:21:47.100 The neighborhood I grew up in, those experiences. 00:21:47.100 --> 00:21:52.700 So there was a lot of trust in my family and in the community and people I knew in Richard's work. 00:21:52.700 --> 00:21:58.220 But, you know, I wasn't really interested in any kind of church or community for most of my young adult life. 00:21:58.220 --> 00:22:08.140 But by some chance, I had read Adam's Return, his book about male spirituality and initiation, maybe a year or so before I got divorced. 00:22:08.140 --> 00:22:10.460 And that kind of planted some seeds. 00:22:10.460 --> 00:22:10.940 And then 00:22:12.300 --> 00:22:19.900 You know, I spent some time after my divorce really going deep, and I had this wonderful opportunity where I got to work at Big Bend National Park for a summer. 00:22:19.900 --> 00:22:23.519 They have a volunteer program in the park where they provide room. 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:24.799 And board, and you work. 00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:28.080 And I helped to run a visitor center at Big Bend. 00:22:28.080 --> 00:22:32.860 And during that time, I listened to a lot of Richards' audio recordings from the CAC. 00:22:32.860 --> 00:22:38.380 The Center for Action and Contemplation, where he, you know, he founded after he left Cincinnati and New Mexico. 00:22:38.380 --> 00:22:40.380 And he did a whole series about men 00:22:40.740 --> 00:22:42.580 And male spirituality. 00:22:42.580 --> 00:22:44.020 And they really resonated with me. 00:22:44.020 --> 00:22:51.900 And so when I left Big Bend National Park in 2014, I drove immediately to Illinois, where they were holding a men's rites of passage. 00:22:51.900 --> 00:23:05.660 And it's a five day, four night ritual event that leads men through a series of grief and death, and all this is ritual and time in nature, and with the goal of kind of 00:23:07.360 --> 00:23:10.640 You know, bringing some reflection on your life and that sort of thing. 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:13.920 And you will emerge in some sort of transformed way from that. 00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:18.800 Although you don't necessarily know right away, you do feel immediately different after a. 00:23:18.919 --> 00:23:21.000 An experience like a rites of passage. 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:21.880 But it takes some time. 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:28.640 But immediately after coming back to Ohio, after the men's rites of passage, I immediately began seeking out community. 00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:36.160 And trying to find other men that had gone through that event, other men that were trying to gather men in what we call councils. 00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:37.040 You know, these are our. 00:23:37.320 --> 00:23:40.120 Meetings of men just where they come together and they check in. 00:23:40.120 --> 00:23:45.960 Our councils often have like a meal associated with them, but we also have, you know, a little bit of a program where we try to 00:23:46.200 --> 00:23:52.920 Try to draw experience and wisdom and things out of the men who are there. 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:54.760 So that's been deeply 00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:59.800 And so over the 10 years that I've been involved, Illuman emerged from the CAC. 00:23:59.800 --> 00:24:03.320 It was originally called M.A.L.Es, which is an acronym, Men As Learners and Elders. 00:24:03.320 --> 00:24:09.720 And Richard ran that through the CAC for 15 or so years before it became its own organization. 00:24:09.940 --> 00:24:13.620 And now we're pretty large organization nationally. 00:24:13.620 --> 00:24:14.980 There's lots of men's organizations. 00:24:14.980 --> 00:24:17.620 So I don't want to say that Illuman is the only 00:24:18.080 --> 00:24:22.160 organization of its type or only community out there that is there for men. 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:26.900 But it's a large one, and we have chapters, maybe 15 or so chapters around the country. 00:24:26.900 --> 00:24:30.900 Vancouver, British Columbia recently became a chapter of Illuman. 00:24:30.900 --> 00:24:34.500 And we have fraternal organizations because Richard is such a well-known 00:24:34.860 --> 00:24:41.899 Teacher, there's organizations in Australia and Ireland, in the United Kingdom, and Germany, and Austria, and even now Latvia. 00:24:41.899 --> 00:24:45.580 There's an emerging region in Brazil of men that have. 00:24:45.980 --> 00:24:49.500 Seen some benefit in doing rites of passage and things like that. 00:24:49.500 --> 00:24:56.300 So, yeah, it's just, you know, being connected to others is such an important part of our journeys. 00:24:56.300 --> 00:24:57.840 I think all of us that. 00:24:57.840 --> 00:24:59.039 That's where I do my work. 00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:07.940 And I would just urge that everybody needs to find some sort of community which feeds their soul and which they can give themselves to as well. 00:25:07.940 --> 00:25:15.620 What have you discovered in terms of the like the hunger among men to have that kind of community? 00:25:16.280 --> 00:25:17.720 Reflect a bit on that. 00:25:18.040 --> 00:25:24.980 Yeah, this goes so when I because my family grew up in Cincinnati and part of the New Jerusalem community. 00:25:24.980 --> 00:25:29.540 I watched that community kind of just flourish and flower in my early childhood. 00:25:29.540 --> 00:25:32.980 So, you know, this is my child perspective on this. 00:25:32.980 --> 00:25:36.340 I don't know if an adult would give you a different kind of perspective, but it was a big concern. 00:25:36.840 --> 00:25:41.240 A big part of our regular lives, and it seemed to be flourishing and drawing a lot of people in. 00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:45.700 And people were visiting from around the country and around the world to see what was going on. 00:25:45.700 --> 00:25:49.060 And when Richard kind of hit his midlife, he would go. 00:25:49.060 --> 00:25:52.420 My understanding is that he would, he takes a hermitage every Lent. 00:25:52.420 --> 00:25:54.840 He would go away, spend time by himself to reflect. 00:25:54.840 --> 00:26:02.039 Maybe this is him as a one realizing that he needed some space in which to kind of integrate things and move forward. 00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:07.980 And I think my understanding is in 84, 85, he came back to Cincinnati and said it was time for him to move on. 00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:17.140 And I don't know that he knew exactly what he was going to do next, but he tried to continue the community with lay leadership, and then he moved on to Albuquerque. 00:26:17.140 --> 00:26:24.740 And the community sputtered and started to, you know, I don't want to disparage anybody that was part of the community at that time. 00:26:24.740 --> 00:26:28.540 And of course, that community was affected by developments in the outside world. 00:26:28.540 --> 00:26:37.660 I think it was born, you know, in a time in the 60s of great change, and there was change in the Catholic Church, and it moved through the 70s and civil rights and those things. 00:26:37.660 --> 00:26:42.380 And then, you know, the 80s, different things happened, and people grew older, you know, and 00:26:43.419 --> 00:26:45.179 So it fell apart. 00:26:45.179 --> 00:26:49.659 But what that told me as a young person is that community is hard and it doesn't work. 00:26:49.659 --> 00:26:53.260 And, you know, the society was kind of buffeting that same 00:26:53.860 --> 00:26:56.900 Trumpeting that same message to me, you know, like we're all individuals. 00:26:56.900 --> 00:27:00.580 You know how we get that message as Americans, you know, pull yourself up by the bootstraps. 00:27:00.580 --> 00:27:02.180 We're very individualistic. 00:27:02.180 --> 00:27:04.620 And so, yeah, I thought that's what you had to do. 00:27:04.620 --> 00:27:14.700 And then, you know, as my life progressed and I had some difficult experiences in my life, primarily, you know, starting out with divorce, I realized you can't do this alone. 00:27:14.700 --> 00:27:16.419 You need community. 00:27:16.419 --> 00:27:21.380 Community is so essential to what we do and who we are as people. 00:27:21.380 --> 00:27:25.240 And I know that there's this deep, deep hunger for community out there. 00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:34.519 And I don't want to romanticize community either because what I learned in my involvement with Illuman is I learned, you know. 00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:35.639 How difficult it is. 00:27:35.639 --> 00:27:42.440 You know, there is, we try to maintain Illuman as a very flat organization without much hierarchy 00:27:42.740 --> 00:27:44.820 You know, that's really difficult to do. 00:27:44.820 --> 00:27:48.980 You'll find a lot of men in Illuman that take on positions of leadership. 00:27:48.980 --> 00:27:53.299 That means running chapters or even serving on the board and those sorts of things that are 00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:56.799 nines, ones, threes, twos on the Enneagram. 00:27:56.799 --> 00:27:58.320 You'll have a lot of those types of people. 00:27:58.320 --> 00:28:02.740 And some of us are looking for hierarchy and control and organization. 00:28:02.740 --> 00:28:06.660 But at the same time, we're all trying to do our spiritual work and we're aware of these things too. 00:28:06.660 --> 00:28:13.060 And so, you know, it doesn't mitigate all conflict and things like that, but it's real. 00:28:13.060 --> 00:28:16.040 It's a real organization where you can do some good work. 00:28:16.040 --> 00:28:18.280 We really try to put that at the forefront. 00:28:18.280 --> 00:28:26.360 And, you know, and then two, you know, we all bring the baggage from our life with us, you know, and so that comes to bear in community as well. 00:28:26.360 --> 00:28:29.880 But it's also one of the only places I think you can heal. 00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:37.880 You know, from these sorts of things, because it's not what I've learned from other teachers is that it's not, you're not going to rationalize 00:28:38.360 --> 00:28:51.000 And think your way through a lot of the traumas and the experiences and the pain in your life, you're going to have to have some sort of transformative, transcendent experience to forgive, to let go, to be at peace. 00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:52.520 You'll still have those wounds. 00:28:52.660 --> 00:28:56.420 But they may not control your life the way that they have in the past. 00:29:01.300 --> 00:29:06.340 No doubt you've noticed that the Nine Lives podcast talks a lot about the Enneagram. 00:29:06.340 --> 00:29:13.200 Yet, we're mindful that a good number of people have yet to discover the wisdom and power of this dynamic system. 00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:15.200 We want to help change that. 00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:22.320 If you'd like to learn more about the Enneagram and how to apply its insights, go to our website www dot 00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:23.760 transmuto dot 00:29:23.760 --> 00:29:26.400 org and sign up for our mailing list. 00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:36.160 Jeff will send you a free information sheet that will help you get started on your exploration of this powerfully accurate tool for personal growth and spiritual development. 00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:41.360 Plus, you'll receive special offers for other exciting resources to help you start your Enneagram journey. 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:44.360 So sign up now at www. 00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:45.720 transmuto dot 00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:46.520 org. 00:29:52.120 --> 00:29:53.320 It is kind of funny. 00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:59.400 I pastored for a long time, and I think the idea of the church community 00:30:00.179 --> 00:30:06.659 A lot of people come into this very idealistic, thinking what it's going to be like, and then they discover what it's actually like. 00:30:07.380 --> 00:30:13.539 And the tough thing about true community, where you rub up against each other and there's friction and 00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:19.760 Even from an Enneagram perspective, we're all looking for different things and we think our way is the only way. 00:30:19.760 --> 00:30:24.400 And then we bump up against people who come at it from a different perspective. 00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:27.919 And they're thinking the same things about us as we're thinking about them. 00:30:27.919 --> 00:30:28.080 And 00:30:28.419 --> 00:30:36.580 It does demand a lot of work to get through that and to really hammer out true community. 00:30:36.580 --> 00:30:37.380 And I think 00:30:37.900 --> 00:30:43.020 While there's a hunger for it for some people, they say, I'm sorry, it's just too much work. 00:30:43.580 --> 00:30:46.780 I don't like getting hurt like that, and I'm out. 00:30:46.780 --> 00:30:51.660 So go off and live isolation, but that doesn't get us anywhere either. 00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:59.880 Yeah, when I was working at the Big Bend National Park, and that's in that area of Texas where the Rio Grande takes like a 90-degree turn, hence the 00:30:59.880 --> 00:31:02.840 The name Big Bend, but you know, it really is off the grid. 00:31:03.080 --> 00:31:05.880 It's one of the least visited national parks. 00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:08.860 It's also one of the biggest, it's as big as the state of Rhode Island. 00:31:08.860 --> 00:31:11.340 It's very hot down there in the summer. 00:31:11.659 --> 00:31:17.340 But you'll have a lot of people that live out there that are kind of desert rats, I guess, or maybe what they call themselves. 00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:23.100 But they also call them end of the road people is they want to be just on the border of 00:31:23.260 --> 00:31:27.580 You know, civilization, or you know, have certain things, but they don't want to be messed with. 00:31:27.580 --> 00:31:31.020 You know, and I'm well aware of that aspect, too. 00:31:31.020 --> 00:31:34.740 There's that aspect in me as well that just wants to withdraw. 00:31:34.740 --> 00:31:35.620 Wants to leave alone. 00:31:35.620 --> 00:31:40.900 In fact, that might be my nine-wing, which I uh is more of a kind of a shadow thing for me. 00:31:40.900 --> 00:31:42.900 I don't acknowledge that as much. 00:31:43.940 --> 00:31:47.220 And, you know, just wants to step back and step away. 00:31:47.220 --> 00:31:54.560 But, you know, I told myself that one of the most important things for me to do is to stay engaged in life. 00:31:54.560 --> 00:31:55.760 And keep connecting. 00:31:55.760 --> 00:32:07.520 In fact, that's one of the reasons I got married again eventually: is that, you know, after three years of divorce and spending some time on the road and just doing a lot of work, and I was fortunate to be able to do that, I don't have any children. 00:32:07.700 --> 00:32:13.700 And didn't have a lot of responsibilities that kept me from taking some of those big steps in my life. 00:32:14.940 --> 00:32:22.740 But I'd said, you know, I want to be back in relationship because I learned mainly through Illuman and some of the work I was doing is that that's what propels us forward. 00:32:22.740 --> 00:32:31.220 Is our relationships with other people, not just necessarily a relationship with a spouse, but just being in community with other people is what's going to continue to drive you forward. 00:32:31.220 --> 00:32:34.820 And I have to go easy on myself, though, because I, you know. 00:32:34.820 --> 00:32:36.900 Last night, we don't even know our neighbors. 00:32:36.900 --> 00:32:39.220 Our neighbors moved in maybe a year or so ago. 00:32:39.540 --> 00:32:41.620 There's a house behind us. 00:32:41.620 --> 00:32:41.860 And 00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:43.799 And I think it might be a rental property. 00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:54.760 So somebody new came and they have children and stuff, and they seem like very friendly people, but neither of us have made the overture of, you know, saying, you know, going over to the other house, say, hello, this is who I am, that sort of thing. 00:32:54.760 --> 00:32:55.080 And 00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:59.640 And I don't think it's uncommon, even in our suburban neighborhood, for that to happen anymore. 00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:00.600 I think people are just tired. 00:33:00.600 --> 00:33:06.440 And when they have a house, you know, or a home, it's their refuge from work and the outside world and things like that. 00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:08.120 And so it's not like 00:33:08.500 --> 00:33:13.860 What we might recall from when we grew up, where you knew all the neighbors and everybody was outside all the time. 00:33:13.860 --> 00:33:17.419 But I give myself a little bit of a leeway and say, you know, you're doing your best. 00:33:17.419 --> 00:33:27.000 You know, you'll meet them at some point, or hopefully, you know, maybe something will happen if that's to be, you know, but connection is very, very, very important. 00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:27.640 Great. 00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:33.960 So your role with Illuman, you have some leadership role with them. 00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:40.260 How does your type one, and maybe you say you're self-employed, so there's kind of self-leadership and doing stuff like that. 00:33:40.260 --> 00:33:48.740 But how does your type one kind of inform you with leadership, your overall philosophy, principles, how you approach leadership? 00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:58.360 Well, with being self-employed and stuff, I think for, and I don't know if this is my type or just, you know, more personality or experience, but or who I am. 00:33:59.080 --> 00:34:01.720 I guess I just got tired of being in an office. 00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:07.240 It seemed like such a waste of time, you know, and I could do more on my own. 00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:09.320 And I don't like, I like to do my own thing. 00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:11.240 I mean, I think that's a real big part of me. 00:34:11.240 --> 00:34:11.859 And so. 00:34:11.859 --> 00:34:25.220 It's been challenging to be self-employed in a lot of ways because you have to create your own work and your own roles and your own relationships and things that are you're going to get paid, the projects and things you're going to get paid to do, make a living. 00:34:25.220 --> 00:34:31.539 Whereas being an employee and things like that, that structure and framework is usually there, but that's not something that I like. 00:34:31.539 --> 00:34:36.500 And so being a leader in Illuman has been kind of accidental. 00:34:36.500 --> 00:34:37.240 I think. 00:34:37.240 --> 00:34:41.879 A lot of the men, they just, we've needed this community in our life. 00:34:41.879 --> 00:34:44.040 We've needed this connection with other men. 00:34:44.040 --> 00:34:48.520 We've needed it so much that we just, you know, do what we can. 00:34:48.679 --> 00:34:49.399 To create it. 00:34:49.399 --> 00:34:55.159 And, you know, I am a little critical probably to a fault of other men because there's a lot of men saying, How do I do this? 00:34:55.159 --> 00:34:55.720 Or what do I do? 00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:57.880 Because they, because I'm like, I don't know. 00:34:57.880 --> 00:34:59.240 You just, you, you just do it. 00:34:59.240 --> 00:35:01.960 You, you, the very, you know. 00:35:02.040 --> 00:35:11.720 The easiest thing to do is just call together people in what we call a council or a group and just, you know, have a meal and just try to get together in that kind of subtle form of community. 00:35:11.720 --> 00:35:12.440 But there's no 00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:16.160 Huge structure to this, or there's no, you have to be creative. 00:35:16.160 --> 00:35:22.840 I think you have to be somewhat creative in order to work in community and to be in community. 00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:24.200 And so that's what we're doing. 00:35:24.200 --> 00:35:30.600 And I'll tell you, a lot of the guys that find themselves in leadership positions, I think there's a lot of shrugging, like, how did this happen? 00:35:30.600 --> 00:35:32.600 You know, what am I doing? 00:35:32.740 --> 00:35:34.100 There's a lot of different types. 00:35:34.100 --> 00:35:38.580 And we, and but I also say too, is this is where you can really manifest your gifts. 00:35:38.580 --> 00:35:40.900 And this is not based on your Enneagram type at all. 00:35:40.900 --> 00:35:43.540 It's just some people have a gift for organizing. 00:35:43.540 --> 00:35:47.180 You know, some people have a gift for teaching and leading. 00:35:47.180 --> 00:35:48.859 I talked about the men's rites of passage. 00:35:48.859 --> 00:35:50.780 It's a big event to put on. 00:35:50.780 --> 00:35:55.940 And the men that feel a calling to do that, some of them have gotten into that too because they want this for their sons. 00:35:55.940 --> 00:35:57.700 And for the other men in their life. 00:35:57.700 --> 00:35:59.140 And they put in a lot of effort. 00:35:59.140 --> 00:36:04.420 And when I go to help with one of these events, I tell you, I'm not the one that's organizing this stuff or leading. 00:36:04.420 --> 00:36:09.640 I'm participating in a supporting role because that's not a particular gift or charism for me. 00:36:09.640 --> 00:36:13.319 But what I can do is, I can help organize, I can help communicate. 00:36:13.319 --> 00:36:20.039 One gift that really seems to have happened is that I'm able to help facilitate a writing retreat because it's something I do. 00:36:20.039 --> 00:36:21.559 And so, yeah, that's my. 00:36:21.720 --> 00:36:26.359 My message to others is just do what you can and trust that that'll be enough. 00:36:26.359 --> 00:36:27.960 Yeah, that's great. 00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:33.960 So, how if somebody was interested in participating in an Illuman Rites of Pass 00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:35.040 Weekend? 00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:36.800 Where would they go? 00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:38.560 What would they do to plug in? 00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:42.960 I think it's rare that men will just show up to a rites of passage. 00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:43.940 It does happen. 00:36:43.940 --> 00:36:51.140 Or that, you know, they might be ready for it, or they might have other men in their life who've gone through it and they can trust it that'll point them in that direction, but 00:36:51.660 --> 00:36:56.940 For somebody who is totally new to this, I would say there's a couple pathways. 00:36:57.180 --> 00:37:02.380 One, pick up Richard's book, Adam's Return, and read about what the men's rites of passage is about. 00:37:02.380 --> 00:37:03.660 Learn about that. 00:37:04.279 --> 00:37:11.260 And there are other organizations that do men's rites of passage, but Illuman primarily works with men in the middle passage of life. 00:37:11.260 --> 00:37:19.500 And that's not to say that you haven't been initiated by other things that have happened in your life, but that is that, you know, we don't do youth rites generally in our culture anymore. 00:37:19.500 --> 00:37:21.820 There are youth rites out there, but we don't do that. 00:37:21.820 --> 00:37:22.620 And so. 00:37:23.100 --> 00:37:26.060 We initiate men into what we call the second half of life. 00:37:26.060 --> 00:37:31.640 Another good book by Richard is called Falling Upward, which talks about that transient to the second half of life. 00:37:31.640 --> 00:37:37.000 The other things I would say is: if you live in a region that is served by a chapter, look to connect with those men in your region. 00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:44.460 If you're not, for instance, Jeff, you're in Kansas, as I understand, there's not as much organization within Illuman in that part of the country. 00:37:44.460 --> 00:37:46.460 But there are virtual councils. 00:37:46.460 --> 00:37:47.740 So if you go to the Illuman. 00:37:47.900 --> 00:37:54.540 org website and you look up virtual councils, there's ways to participate online in our council events. 00:37:54.540 --> 00:37:57.020 And usually there's two or three a week. 00:37:57.020 --> 00:38:02.140 You know, on both East Coast and West Coast times, you know, to kind of facilitate that for men. 00:38:02.140 --> 00:38:05.420 And by doing that, you'll get a little bit of familiarity with the organization. 00:38:05.420 --> 00:38:08.800 And maybe at some point you will want to participate in men's rites of passage. 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:14.560 But I will say too, it's not a requirement, you know, for your participation in Illuman. 00:38:14.560 --> 00:38:21.099 We have, you know, quite a few men that have not gone to these events and probably never will, but we welcome them as part of our community. 00:38:21.099 --> 00:38:21.579 Great. 00:38:21.579 --> 00:38:22.140 Yeah. 00:38:22.140 --> 00:38:25.820 Yeah, we did a men's rites of passage. 00:38:26.140 --> 00:38:30.940 I don't know if we our organization that did it. 00:38:31.200 --> 00:38:41.920 Was directly tied to Illuman or not, but it came out of that pattern from the guy that really spearheaded it had gone to one of the Illuman experiences, I think in Colorado. 00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:43.520 And brought it back to Kansas. 00:38:43.520 --> 00:38:50.320 And we had a great, great event and were in the plans for the second one. 00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:56.320 And then COVID hit and brought gatherings like that to a screeching halt. 00:38:56.480 --> 00:39:02.320 So, and we just never, no one's had the energy, I don't think, to pick it up and go with it yet. 00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:03.840 So, but that's interesting. 00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:09.840 I didn't know people that could just plug in, even if they hadn't been through the rites of passage experience. 00:39:10.380 --> 00:39:11.020 Oh, yeah. 00:39:11.020 --> 00:39:15.740 And there's like we do the writing retreat, we'll do Enneagram retreats. 00:39:15.980 --> 00:39:16.859 There's all kinds of things. 00:39:16.859 --> 00:39:19.500 Wanderings is one of the things that's really popular where 00:39:20.020 --> 00:39:25.859 We'll meet at a park and we'll get together and we'll, you know, have set an intention, read a poem, something like that. 00:39:25.859 --> 00:39:29.940 And the guys will go out for three or four hours and then we'll come back together and have kind of a picnic lunch. 00:39:29.940 --> 00:39:31.540 Guys love that because. 00:39:31.620 --> 00:39:36.580 Actually, the more time you can spend outdoors, it seems like that draws a lot of people to our events. 00:39:36.980 --> 00:39:37.460 Yeah. 00:39:37.460 --> 00:39:37.780 Yeah. 00:39:37.780 --> 00:39:38.820 I love that. 00:39:39.140 --> 00:39:44.420 I don't know if we talked about this when we were together this summer at the Goose, but 00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:54.039 My dear friend who's worked with Richard with Illuman has kind of taken that model and has developed an elder's rites of passage. 00:39:54.039 --> 00:39:56.920 And we do for like 55 and up. 00:39:57.240 --> 00:40:00.600 But we do for both male and female in the elders' rites. 00:40:00.600 --> 00:40:07.160 But it's a similar format, but it's specifically talking about how do we become elders in the true sense of the word. 00:40:07.160 --> 00:40:07.640 Word. 00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:10.440 And it's been very transformative. 00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:13.720 We've done two cycles of that, planning for our third now. 00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:18.520 Yeah, the Elder Rites has been a huge thing within Illuman and elsewhere. 00:40:18.600 --> 00:40:19.400 You know, I know that. 00:40:20.059 --> 00:40:23.339 That's usually for men over age 65 and up. 00:40:23.339 --> 00:40:27.900 My father, who believe it or not, my father was a Catholic priest. 00:40:28.220 --> 00:40:28.619 He had gone 00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:35.799 He grew up in Chicago and he entered the Passionists, you know, this is back in the 50s, you know, at age 14. 00:40:35.799 --> 00:40:37.400 So he started really early and 00:40:37.559 --> 00:40:42.520 And he was ordained for just a few years before he left the priesthood and got married. 00:40:42.520 --> 00:40:44.839 And that was common, I think, in the Vatican II times. 00:40:44.839 --> 00:40:46.680 But he was the guy that. 00:40:47.380 --> 00:40:50.900 He and my mom both, but he also was an early follower of Richard. 00:40:50.900 --> 00:40:54.340 And when he saw me get involved with Illuman, I think he was always curious. 00:40:54.340 --> 00:40:56.440 And after a couple of years of my involvement, 00:40:56.440 --> 00:40:59.560 He started coming to our national gathering, which used to be called Solarize. 00:40:59.560 --> 00:41:00.839 Now it's called Awaken. 00:41:00.839 --> 00:41:03.400 And we would get together outside of Albuquerque every year. 00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:08.280 And this year it's in Southern Illinois, just northeast of St. 00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:10.920 Louis, in a place called Carlinville, Illinois. 00:41:11.160 --> 00:41:15.080 And so it's moving around the country a little bit to incorporate more men. 00:41:15.080 --> 00:41:16.680 But my dad would come to that. 00:41:16.680 --> 00:41:19.640 And then I think in 2018, he said, I'm ready to do a rites of passage. 00:41:19.640 --> 00:41:21.260 Well, that was the first year. 00:41:21.260 --> 00:41:24.060 That they held an elder rites of passage up in Washington. 00:41:24.060 --> 00:41:27.660 And he participated, and it was utterly transformative in his life. 00:41:27.660 --> 00:41:29.260 In fact, he came home. 00:41:29.260 --> 00:41:31.340 And he immediately changed his burial plans. 00:41:31.340 --> 00:41:36.460 I think he just had a traditional plan for his funeral and cremation and things like that. 00:41:36.460 --> 00:41:36.780 But he 00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:39.359 He decided on natural burial. 00:41:39.359 --> 00:41:50.079 And as luck would have it, my dad died in 2023, in the summer of 2023, and really unexpectedly, sort of sudden, had a cardiac event and died. 00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:50.320 And 00:41:50.740 --> 00:41:56.180 You know, within three or four days, you know, we had him in the ground in a wooden box in a green burial special section. 00:41:56.180 --> 00:41:58.260 A lot of cemeteries are offering that now. 00:41:58.260 --> 00:42:00.100 And it was a really beautiful, small 00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:06.359 Small, small ceremony because of the sort of the urgency of having to, you know, bury an un-embalmed corpse. 00:42:06.359 --> 00:42:10.680 But then, you know, we had a larger memorial two months later. 00:42:10.680 --> 00:42:10.920 And 00:42:11.160 --> 00:42:12.520 You know, it was really profound. 00:42:12.520 --> 00:42:15.640 And so my dad's been gone a little bit more than a year now. 00:42:15.640 --> 00:42:19.720 And it's really this, the men's work that he was involved in. 00:42:19.720 --> 00:42:24.280 There were a lot of men from Illuman that had come to his memorial, which was deeply touching. 00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:25.720 People that knew him and knew. 00:42:26.020 --> 00:42:27.220 And we're supportive. 00:42:27.220 --> 00:42:32.820 But yeah, it's caused me to, you know, consider my own relationship with him. 00:42:32.980 --> 00:42:35.460 My dad was a nine on the Enneagram. 00:42:35.460 --> 00:42:40.099 And, you know, he was that parent for the, you know, the. 00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:45.400 Some of the literature where you read is that once felt alienated from one of their parents. 00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:47.800 And for me, that would have been my father. 00:42:48.440 --> 00:42:49.480 He was really. 00:42:49.640 --> 00:42:55.160 You know, when I would do, would upset him and things like that, he would really withdraw from me. 00:42:55.160 --> 00:43:01.420 I don't, I don't felt like he never loved me or cared for me or things like that, but it was really hard for him to engage with me when he was displeased. 00:43:01.420 --> 00:43:05.580 And I remember my sister on his birthday this last year saying to me, you know, I really miss dad. 00:43:05.580 --> 00:43:07.100 I really miss dad. 00:43:07.100 --> 00:43:15.240 And I go, I, you know, I couldn't relate to that because that voice in my head, that voice of the inner critic is my dad. 00:43:15.240 --> 00:43:16.760 That's my dad's voice. 00:43:16.760 --> 00:43:21.000 And it's felt like I've never been without him, even after he's passed away in some sense. 00:43:21.240 --> 00:43:25.040 And I know that he had that voice in his head as well. 00:43:25.040 --> 00:43:31.440 But it was a real gift for me in the last, I'd say, seven, eight years of his life to do the men's work with him. 00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:35.760 Because one big dimension of our men's work is 00:43:36.140 --> 00:43:40.140 Is dealing with our relationships with our father and trying to understand that. 00:43:40.140 --> 00:43:45.900 And also for the men that have sons to deal with their relationships as fathers to their boys. 00:43:46.220 --> 00:43:46.700 Yeah. 00:43:46.940 --> 00:43:47.260 Yeah. 00:43:47.819 --> 00:43:48.700 Beautiful. 00:43:48.940 --> 00:43:49.980 That's great. 00:43:50.560 --> 00:44:01.480 Well, Brian, what currently are you reading that's inspiring you or any other practice that you're finding inspiring at this moment? 00:44:01.480 --> 00:44:07.480 Well, I mentioned at the top that I work for a man named Jim Heaney who wrote a book called Choosing Presence. 00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:11.880 Jim Heaney lives in Southern California, and he's an elder in Illuman's SoCal. 00:44:11.980 --> 00:44:19.100 And, you know, I met him and one of the Illuman weavers, and weavers in Illuman are the men that lead the men's rites of passage. 00:44:19.100 --> 00:44:21.840 Richard Rohr was the original weaver for Illuman. 00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:26.640 But these are men that were selected originally by Richard to lead more rites of passage. 00:44:26.640 --> 00:44:29.440 And Jim Taylor was the weaver. 00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:35.200 So Jim Taylor and Jim Heaney, who wrote Choosing Presence, came to me a couple of years ago and says, Can you help us build a website for Choosing Presence? 00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:36.320 And I said, sure. 00:44:36.520 --> 00:44:45.720 Well, I didn't know that saying yes to that was going to get me deeply, deeply involved in figuring out what choosing presence is and what that means. 00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:49.200 Choosing Presence is a book about the practice of presence. 00:44:49.200 --> 00:44:55.920 And Jim Heaney went through the rights back in 97 when Richard first started offering them at Ghost Ranch in New Mexico. 00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:58.080 And he was profoundly affected by that experience. 00:44:58.080 --> 00:45:00.620 And at that time, he would have been a man in his 50s. 00:45:00.620 --> 00:45:04.620 And he struggled with meditation and contemplative prayer, those sorts of things. 00:45:04.620 --> 00:45:06.460 And he really struggled with that for years and years. 00:45:06.460 --> 00:45:08.300 And he sought out teachers like Richard. 00:45:08.820 --> 00:45:16.820 Thomas Merton, and I think he was deeply influenced by the work of Brother Lawrence, who was a 17th-century Carmelite monk, who talked about how 00:45:17.020 --> 00:45:19.740 You can be in the presence of God no matter what you're doing. 00:45:19.740 --> 00:45:25.260 You know, whether you're in the kitchen cooking or you're out in the fields working, whatever, you can always be. 00:45:25.260 --> 00:45:26.140 In the presence of God. 00:45:26.140 --> 00:45:32.780 So he started teaching, working on his own practice of meditation, and he started teaching that in prisons. 00:45:32.780 --> 00:45:35.180 And I think he got directed to write a book. 00:45:35.180 --> 00:45:39.120 So he wrote a book called Choosing Presence, and that was published in 2020. 00:45:39.120 --> 00:45:41.280 And Jim's a three on the Enneagram. 00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:43.840 And, you know, he was a businessman in life, very successful. 00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:47.120 And choosing presence is kind of like his post-career. 00:45:47.140 --> 00:45:49.460 Gift to both himself and to other people. 00:45:49.460 --> 00:45:52.420 He preaches, practicing presence, choosing presence. 00:45:52.420 --> 00:45:57.059 And Jim had a couple of real key insights around meditation and contemplative prayer. 00:45:57.059 --> 00:45:57.779 I started 00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:01.960 Meditating after yoga, you know, taking yoga. 00:46:01.960 --> 00:46:07.760 My sister became a yoga teacher after she got out of college, and I would take her yoga class, and she would talk about meditation. 00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:18.480 And so I had always kind of had this idea in my mind that meditation was this Eastern practice and that it was somehow associated with fitness, you know, and it was a mindfulness practice, you know, clearing your mind. 00:46:18.640 --> 00:46:21.120 Taking a moment to breathe, getting some space. 00:46:21.120 --> 00:46:22.640 It was always a morning practice, too. 00:46:22.640 --> 00:46:24.000 You would sit in the morning. 00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:25.760 But Jim grounded 00:46:26.200 --> 00:46:33.720 That practice of meditation and breath and contemplative prayer in the Christian tradition said, Hey, this is a Western tradition as well. 00:46:33.820 --> 00:46:38.540 And it brought it for me out of the head into the heart and saying it's a heart practice as well. 00:46:38.540 --> 00:46:41.340 It's not just about mindfulness and clearing your head. 00:46:41.340 --> 00:46:48.060 It's about, and I would say it's the mystical or incarnational heart that we're trying to move into, where we really are trying to connect with. 00:46:48.660 --> 00:46:53.140 whatever we consider God or our understanding of God in the present moment. 00:46:53.140 --> 00:46:54.340 And the last thing is he 00:46:56.220 --> 00:46:59.099 He said that presence is something that you can come back to throughout the day. 00:46:59.099 --> 00:47:00.940 It's not something you just do in the morning. 00:47:00.940 --> 00:47:08.220 It's something that you can check in on an hourly basis, or you can do it whenever you get the sense that, you know, hey, wait a second, I'm losing contact. 00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:10.360 Losing my, I'm getting angry, whatever. 00:47:10.360 --> 00:47:13.800 Take some breaths, do a check-in, and return to presence. 00:47:13.800 --> 00:47:18.340 So, right now, I'm reading long answer of I'm reading presence. 00:47:18.340 --> 00:47:21.220 Which is a small book again about the practice of presence. 00:47:21.220 --> 00:47:23.220 But I'm doing this in a workshop setting. 00:47:23.220 --> 00:47:26.660 We've invited every fall, we invite men to register for this. 00:47:26.660 --> 00:47:30.540 We give them the book of choosing presence, and we work through the chapters together. 00:47:30.540 --> 00:47:37.820 And I've probably, you know, now read the book about seven or eight times, but, and it's not a long read or difficult read, but it goes deeper and deeper every time. 00:47:37.820 --> 00:47:42.140 And by experiencing it in community, you know, um, 00:47:44.119 --> 00:47:56.280 That's enriching the experience for all of us, and hopefully, expanding what it means to meditate, what it means to pray contemplatively, what it means to be mindful and take those breaths. 00:47:56.599 --> 00:47:57.320 In our culture. 00:47:57.480 --> 00:47:58.760 Hopefully, people are careful. 00:47:58.760 --> 00:47:59.400 Yeah. 00:47:59.720 --> 00:47:59.960 Yeah. 00:47:59.960 --> 00:48:01.640 And I'm reading some Rumi too. 00:48:02.040 --> 00:48:06.599 We're doing a writing retreat next year is going to be Rumi is going to be our inspiration. 00:48:06.599 --> 00:48:07.160 Oh, exactly. 00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:10.160 I picked up a lot of Rumi here to kind of, you know. 00:48:10.160 --> 00:48:11.680 Reacquaint myself with some. 00:48:11.680 --> 00:48:12.480 So, yeah. 00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:14.400 So, I can imagine so. 00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:17.040 So, Jim identifies as a type three. 00:48:17.040 --> 00:48:21.120 I could see where meditation could be a bit of a challenge as a type three. 00:48:21.200 --> 00:48:22.859 So, that's kind of interesting that. 00:48:22.859 --> 00:48:34.220 it almost seems like uh counterintuitive that'd be his his like special gift to the to the world is the teaching how to be present so for for you as a type one what do you find uh any 00:48:35.020 --> 00:48:39.420 Kind of type one challenges for being present for yourself? 00:48:39.740 --> 00:48:44.380 Well, I think when it comes to any kind of practice for a type one, you want to make sure you're getting it right. 00:48:44.780 --> 00:48:45.500 Getting it right. 00:48:45.660 --> 00:48:46.060 Yeah. 00:48:46.060 --> 00:48:46.840 And so. 00:48:46.840 --> 00:48:49.960 Getting past that hurdle is probably the biggest thing. 00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:58.340 And, you know, Jim is when Jim talks about present, he's very adamant that, hey, you need to work your way up to 20 minutes every morning of doing this, and you need to. 00:48:58.340 --> 00:49:05.780 He also created a mobile app that will help put hourly reminders on your phone so that you can do those check-ins and things like that. 00:49:06.180 --> 00:49:08.180 And, you know, that's it's a neat thing. 00:49:08.180 --> 00:49:11.140 It's a free app that goes with it, and it's helpful. 00:49:11.140 --> 00:49:16.339 But, you know, that's very, you know, for a one, that can feel very rigid and structured and things like that. 00:49:16.339 --> 00:49:20.260 And so another thing to get right better. 00:49:20.260 --> 00:49:21.539 I don't, that's that alert. 00:49:21.539 --> 00:49:22.099 Yeah. 00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:22.960 Yeah. 00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:32.160 So to me, it's about, you know, to me, it's, you know, I have no qualm with the idea that we need to do, you know, you come to a point in your life where you go, this is just essential. 00:49:32.160 --> 00:49:33.200 It's what I do. 00:49:33.200 --> 00:49:34.400 It's like getting up in the morning. 00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:36.960 And I usually start off my morning with some stretching. 00:49:37.040 --> 00:49:38.480 And I wish I could stop doing it. 00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:41.840 But at my age and with some of the injuries and things I've had, I have no choice. 00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:44.640 It gets more important as you get older, too. 00:49:44.640 --> 00:49:45.360 I'll tell you. 00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:45.840 Yeah. 00:49:46.040 --> 00:49:52.120 But that's the same thing with doing some sort of prayer and meditation on a daily basis and throughout the day. 00:49:52.120 --> 00:49:54.120 I just think it's essential because. 00:49:54.140 --> 00:50:05.420 Life doesn't get easier, but hopefully if you're on a spiritual path, the tools and the things that you have, the resources, even the community that you have to support you, that grows. 00:50:05.420 --> 00:50:08.859 And so you're able to take on bigger things and deal with bigger challenges. 00:50:09.080 --> 00:50:09.640 Great. 00:50:10.120 --> 00:50:10.520 Yeah. 00:50:10.520 --> 00:50:11.160 Well, very good. 00:50:11.160 --> 00:50:13.080 Well, Brian, this has been a great conversation. 00:50:13.080 --> 00:50:17.560 I'd love just to keep on going, but I'm sure you have other things you got to get to today, too. 00:50:17.560 --> 00:50:23.000 But thanks so much for hopping on the show and spending time with me. 00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:23.240 And 00:50:23.540 --> 00:50:24.980 Talking about this stuff. 00:50:24.980 --> 00:50:30.100 Where can people find you, especially if they're interested, like in the writing retreat? 00:50:30.100 --> 00:50:31.060 Give some contact. 00:50:31.060 --> 00:50:34.020 We'll make sure we get those in the program notes too. 00:50:34.020 --> 00:50:35.460 Yeah, thanks so much, Jeff. 00:50:36.020 --> 00:50:38.579 For Illuman, again, go to Illuman. 00:50:38.740 --> 00:50:38.980 org. 00:50:38.980 --> 00:50:42.180 That's our national website where I'm at in Ohio. 00:50:42.180 --> 00:50:46.500 And we work closely with our chapters in Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, and Minnesota. 00:50:46.500 --> 00:50:48.339 We call ourselves Illuman Great Lakes. 00:50:48.740 --> 00:50:51.140 Our chapter website is ohio illuman dot 00:50:51.140 --> 00:50:52.020 org. 00:50:52.020 --> 00:50:54.740 And you can always contact me at connect. 00:50:54.740 --> 00:50:56.420 My email is connect at ohio illuman dot 00:50:56.500 --> 00:50:56.740 org. 00:50:56.740 --> 00:51:01.640 I love the idea of helping people to connect with the community and with resources available. 00:51:01.640 --> 00:51:04.039 Choosing Presence is where I do a lot of my work these days. 00:51:04.039 --> 00:51:05.240 Go to choosingpresence dot 00:51:05.240 --> 00:51:05.480 org. 00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:06.599 You'll find out a lot about us. 00:51:06.839 --> 00:51:09.000 We do a weekly email right now. 00:51:09.160 --> 00:51:13.440 We talk about topics associated with the practice of presence for those that are. 00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:15.760 Want to go deeper with this, that might be beneficial. 00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:18.079 I have a website where my poetry is. 00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:19.280 It's BrianMueller dot 00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:19.839 com. 00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:22.260 You can actually see that as well. 00:51:22.260 --> 00:51:23.780 And if I may, there's fun things. 00:51:23.780 --> 00:51:25.140 I had written down a couple things. 00:51:25.140 --> 00:51:34.640 One of the things I always loved about Enneagram retreats is we had teachers that would mention movies or characters or songs and stuff that identify with the type. 00:51:34.640 --> 00:51:43.840 And one of the ones that I, that is so informative to me, the movie The Bridge on the River Kwai, which came out in 1957, I don't think you remember that. 00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:51.360 It was based on a book, a really popular book, but it was Alec Ball or Alec Guinness, excuse me, the guy that played Ben Kenobi in Star Wars. 00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:53.120 He was the lead actor in that. 00:51:53.120 --> 00:51:56.040 And he plays a British colonel named Colonel Nicholson. 00:51:56.040 --> 00:52:08.280 And the movie is, there's a lot more to it, but in that movie, there's a whole brigade of English soldiers that are in a Burmese prison camp, and they're asked by their enemy to build a bridge for a railway. 00:52:09.320 --> 00:52:15.400 And he instructs his men, they're an engineering brigade, so they build this bridge, you know, and they're not doing a good job. 00:52:15.400 --> 00:52:18.460 And when he finds out they're not doing a good job, he's so upset. 00:52:18.460 --> 00:52:20.300 And he says, you got to do the best job you can. 00:52:20.300 --> 00:52:21.500 You guys are British soldiers. 00:52:21.500 --> 00:52:22.620 This is what we do. 00:52:22.620 --> 00:52:27.359 And he makes them build this wonderful bridge, you know, for the enemy or for the Burmese army. 00:52:27.359 --> 00:52:28.079 Going across. 00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:31.680 And then at the end of the movie, he kind of realizes, oh my God, what have I done? 00:52:32.640 --> 00:52:42.160 And I wonder if, I don't know that he's an Enneagram type one, but that seems like such an Enneagram type one thing is you just kind of lose sight of everything and you say, this is what I do, and this is what I do well. 00:52:42.420 --> 00:52:44.580 And you don't have any larger context. 00:52:44.580 --> 00:52:49.940 I think that's what it means to be doing things instinctually, but not bringing your head online. 00:52:49.940 --> 00:52:55.620 So, if anybody wants to see a one character in action, I think that might be a movie. 00:52:55.620 --> 00:52:59.140 And there's a great song too by this group called Ages and Ages. 00:52:59.140 --> 00:53:01.940 The name of the song is Divisionary, but everybody knows it by its lyric. 00:53:01.940 --> 00:53:03.620 It's called Do the Right Thing. 00:53:03.620 --> 00:53:06.340 And that song is the voice of the inner critic for the one. 00:53:06.340 --> 00:53:08.660 But it's a really great song because it's sung in chorus. 00:53:08.660 --> 00:53:10.020 And if you look up the video, 00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:14.560 Watch the live video where they have all these people singing the song together. 00:53:14.560 --> 00:53:18.400 It's called Do the Right Thing by Ages and Ages, and it's a fun song. 00:53:18.400 --> 00:53:18.960 But that's 00:53:20.260 --> 00:53:26.500 It's that voice in your head is constantly saying, Do the right thing, do the right thing, do the right thing. 00:53:26.500 --> 00:53:33.619 So, yeah, thanks for letting me mention this because I thought about that because when you did the one panel, there was a gentleman named Steve on there, and he mentioned a couple of books. 00:53:34.160 --> 00:53:35.520 That he found were helpful. 00:53:35.520 --> 00:53:38.160 And I've been looking into those books as well. 00:53:38.160 --> 00:53:38.880 Good, good. 00:53:39.040 --> 00:53:40.400 I'll pass that along to him. 00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:41.440 He actually just lived about 00:53:41.580 --> 00:53:43.020 Three blocks from my house. 00:53:44.620 --> 00:53:45.740 We get together quite often. 00:53:45.740 --> 00:53:50.280 I'll have to mention to him Ages and Ages and that movie as well. 00:53:50.280 --> 00:53:52.440 So thank you so much, Jeff. 00:53:52.440 --> 00:54:02.280 What you guys do with the Narrative Enneagram is really helpful because it does you know, it's easy to kind of see the types in our in the context of who we are and in a very narrow space. 00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:05.160 But by having people share stories and do panels and things, 00:54:05.320 --> 00:54:08.520 It really gives dimensionality to each of the types. 00:54:08.520 --> 00:54:09.800 And yeah, great. 00:54:09.800 --> 00:54:12.120 Well, thank you for contributing to the conversation. 00:54:12.120 --> 00:54:13.800 This has been wonderful. 00:54:14.200 --> 00:54:15.000 Oh, I've enjoyed it. 00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:16.200 Thank you. 00:54:17.160 --> 00:54:25.820 I think you'll agree with me that Brian gives us a great insight to the Type 1 structure and what it looks like for someone who leads with Type 1. 00:54:25.820 --> 00:54:36.460 When they do their work and really push through to grow and develop and mature beyond some of the restrictions and rigidity that Type 1 can bring to us. 00:54:36.460 --> 00:54:42.460 So again, thanks Brian for giving us a great insight and for being my guest on the podcast. 00:54:42.460 --> 00:54:46.240 And be sure to check out his information in the program notes. 00:54:46.240 --> 00:54:53.760 And if you'd like to learn more about the Enneagram and how to apply its wisdom to your life, I'd love to be a companion with you on that journey. 00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:58.640 I provide a variety of services, including typing interviews that help you identify 00:54:58.859 --> 00:55:09.440 Which Enneagram type you lead with, as well as follow-up coaching and consulting to help you apply the wisdom of the Enneagram to whatever area of life that you would like to work on. 00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:15.920 Whether that's your own personal growth and development, in your key relationships, or in your professional life. 00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:20.859 I also provide a variety of workshops and trainings for organizations. 00:55:20.859 --> 00:55:25.180 to help develop better staff relations as well as workplace culture. 00:55:25.180 --> 00:55:26.540 So check me out. 00:55:26.540 --> 00:55:29.099 Find me at my website at transmuto dot 00:55:29.099 --> 00:55:29.640 org 00:55:29.640 --> 00:55:36.920 You can also follow me on my Facebook page at Transmuto or on my Instagram account, TransmutoKC. 00:55:36.920 --> 00:55:40.640 So thanks again for tuning into this episode of Nine Lives. 00:55:40.640 --> 00:55:42.880 Be sure to check out our next episode. 00:55:42.880 --> 00:55:46.559 And until then, live your best life.