WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:12.160 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:11.460 --> 00:00:12.740 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:12.740 --> 00:00:18.180 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.180 --> 00:00:24.740 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:24.260 --> 00:00:33.700 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterwards. 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:42.360 This podcast is truly a labor of love, inspired by my own transformative experience at the men's rites of passage and my ongoing commitment to the Illuman Community. 00:00:41.560 --> 00:00:48.200 It's also informed by my work with Choosing Presence, where we believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:50.360 In a world of constant distraction 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:53.120 Choosing Presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. 00:00:53.120 --> 00:00:59.760 If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot 00:00:59.840 --> 00:01:01.200 org slash app. 00:01:00.760 --> 00:01:06.200 And if you'd like to support the show, I invite you to learn more about me and my work as a poet at BriansPoems dot 00:01:06.360 --> 00:01:06.920 com. 00:01:06.920 --> 00:01:13.400 Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second. 00:01:12.960 --> 00:01:16.640 shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. 00:01:16.640 --> 00:01:22.080 On this show we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:01:21.160 --> 00:01:27.480 Today I'm joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:01:34.360 --> 00:01:36.280 My guest today is Mike Clawson. 00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:37.719 Brother, I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:40.759 Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. 00:01:40.759 --> 00:01:41.640 Thanks, Brian. 00:01:41.960 --> 00:01:43.799 I'm looking forward to this. 00:01:43.520 --> 00:01:46.399 Mike, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:01:46.399 --> 00:01:48.399 I'm in Austin, Texas. 00:01:48.399 --> 00:01:52.640 I am currently in between jobs, so I have a lot of free time on my hands. 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:57.520 I was formerly was working for Illuman, which is the organization that puts on the 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:00.720 the MROP, um, the men's rites. 00:02:00.720 --> 00:02:04.159 And these days I'm I spend a lot of time with my kids. 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:06.880 My youngest just graduated high school, so I am 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:10.720 Technically, an empty nestor, although she's still living at home. 00:02:10.720 --> 00:02:15.520 So I try to maximize time with her and with her older sister. 00:02:14.940 --> 00:02:20.060 so that, you know, they're growing up fast and they're they're already starting to fly the nest a bit. 00:02:20.140 --> 00:02:21.980 Love getting outside here. 00:02:21.980 --> 00:02:24.780 It's a little hot this time of year in Texas, but 00:02:25.040 --> 00:02:35.040 But otherwise I'm outdoors as much as I can and yeah, spend a lot of time reading, spend time with friends, trying to do the things that I don't always make time for when I'm working full time. 00:02:34.640 --> 00:02:37.280 Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:39.200 The MROP is a unique experience. 00:02:39.200 --> 00:02:40.720 It's not a retreat or a workshop. 00:02:40.720 --> 00:02:41.920 It's an initiation. 00:02:41.920 --> 00:02:46.879 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:49.160 Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. 00:02:49.160 --> 00:02:51.400 Mike, when and where did you make your rites? 00:02:51.720 --> 00:02:55.480 I did my rites of passage four years ago. 00:02:55.320 --> 00:02:57.320 in twenty-twenty two. 00:02:57.320 --> 00:03:03.400 And I did it at Johnsonburg, New Jersey, which is a small camp out in the hills. 00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:05.880 Yeah, it was a powerful weekend. 00:03:05.340 --> 00:03:08.140 Do you recall who your Weaver was and about how many men were there? 00:03:08.700 --> 00:03:11.340 Jim Taylor was the Weaver. 00:03:11.340 --> 00:03:17.260 He's well known to a lot of guys that have done this men's work, real dynamic personality. 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:20.720 And I'm you know, it was a seemed like a big group to me. 00:03:20.720 --> 00:03:22.160 I don't know how it compares to others. 00:03:22.160 --> 00:03:27.360 I think there was maybe sixty or seventy men that went through it. 00:03:27.180 --> 00:03:29.900 We filled up one hole, like half of a gym. 00:03:30.220 --> 00:03:32.780 Might have been a mighty I don't know, could have been closer to 100. 00:03:32.780 --> 00:03:33.660 I'm not sure. 00:03:33.660 --> 00:03:35.099 That's a good size, yeah. 00:03:35.099 --> 00:03:40.140 So, when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image or feeling that comes forth for you? 00:03:41.500 --> 00:03:49.100 Sitting outside in the woods in the rain for the better part of a day, just 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:52.480 silent myself and with nature. 00:03:52.480 --> 00:03:54.160 And it was freezing. 00:03:54.160 --> 00:03:57.680 It was it was like fifty degrees and raining. 00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:00.480 But, you know, without giving too much away, that wa that was 00:04:00.740 --> 00:04:09.540 A big part of the experience for me was just that time to just be solely alone with myself and with the more than human world. 00:04:09.540 --> 00:04:14.580 And when you think back to that weekend as a whole, how was that experience for you? 00:04:14.440 --> 00:04:17.320 It wasn't entirely novel to me. 00:04:17.320 --> 00:04:24.120 I had done similar men's men's work kind of experiences and and rites type experiences in the past with other 00:04:24.520 --> 00:04:25.320 organization. 00:04:25.320 --> 00:04:29.880 So I I went in kind of having a rough idea of what to expect. 00:04:29.880 --> 00:04:33.000 What I found was that 00:04:33.660 --> 00:04:42.780 The the rituals, the practices, the talks, the things that we did there unlocked things that I hadn't unlocked before. 00:04:42.780 --> 00:04:46.300 Or griefs and hurts and wounds and 00:04:47.100 --> 00:04:51.260 desires that I hadn't excavated yet. 00:04:51.260 --> 00:04:55.980 So just it created it not just created a container, but it created a 00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:05.360 it gave us tools or practices or it put us in circumstances that made it possible for us to go places that I hadn't gone before. 00:05:04.960 --> 00:05:16.000 So without sharing anything you'd consider confidential or maybe too personal, is there a particular memory or an encounter that you had with another man that you're willing to share with us from your rites? 00:05:15.620 --> 00:05:19.379 You know, the strongest memories for me are with my council group. 00:05:19.379 --> 00:05:24.500 Council being the small groups of men that we meet with while we're there. 00:05:24.500 --> 00:05:28.180 And there's a practice, the way of council, where it's just men 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:31.840 speaking from the heart, listening from the heart. 00:05:31.840 --> 00:05:41.199 And I just remember sitting around that group of logs with these guys and hearing the uniqueness of each man's story. 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:43.919 and yet also feeling like this kinship. 00:05:43.919 --> 00:05:50.800 A few of their lives were very different than mine, and yet there was just like a camaraderie or brotherhood or 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:56.520 You know, they they say, men, like we bond in when we face adversity. 00:05:56.520 --> 00:06:04.120 And just being in that setting where it's not adversity so much, but you know, like you're doing this hard work together. 00:06:04.180 --> 00:06:05.780 individually, but also together. 00:06:05.780 --> 00:06:07.940 And it just it draws you together. 00:06:07.940 --> 00:06:09.540 It it created bonds. 00:06:09.540 --> 00:06:16.180 So yeah, when I well, I and I shouldn't even share any specific thing that was said by the men in that group, but just that sense of 00:06:16.620 --> 00:06:19.740 Being present with one another and fully present. 00:06:19.740 --> 00:06:24.300 That's really, I mean, we that the practice of counsel really emphasizes that 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:27.760 That you're not, there's no crosstalk and you're not giving feedback to anyone. 00:06:27.760 --> 00:06:32.000 So you're not sitting there thinking of what you're going to say in response to anyone. 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:34.000 You're just listening and just present. 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:36.000 And that was powerful to me. 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:37.760 Yeah, thank you for that. 00:06:37.420 --> 00:06:43.260 So going back to before you actually participated in the rites, what were the circumstances in your life that kind of led you to participate? 00:06:43.580 --> 00:06:44.620 What was going on? 00:06:44.940 --> 00:06:49.260 Well, for me, I had actually just started working with Illuman. 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:52.639 And so part of my motivation was, well, I'm working for this organization. 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:56.560 I need to experience their signature their signature offering. 00:06:56.560 --> 00:06:59.360 But there was also a I was going through a 00:06:59.920 --> 00:07:08.880 transition period professionally where I had spent the previous five years building a business. 00:07:08.500 --> 00:07:15.220 actually launched a festival in Austin, Texas, because Austin needs more festivals. 00:07:15.540 --> 00:07:21.540 And it was a success and we were and we were building up to kind of the second one and then COVID happened. 00:07:21.139 --> 00:07:23.139 We had to move it all online. 00:07:23.139 --> 00:07:28.259 And then eventually that just kind of fizzled out 'cause everybody got sick of being online, you know. 00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:30.979 And so there was this period of grieving for me. 00:07:30.979 --> 00:07:32.500 I was I was letting go of this 00:07:32.840 --> 00:07:43.640 passion project, this thing that I had put my heart and soul and time and resources into for five years, and it just kind of all fell apart through no fault of my own. 00:07:43.640 --> 00:07:47.000 There's a there's a s quote from Star Trek. 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:51.000 Where Captain Picard says, It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:53.400 That is not a weakness, that is life. 00:07:53.400 --> 00:07:59.640 And I had gone through this experience where, through no fault of my own, I lost this really important thing. 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:11.040 And so grieving that and trying to figure out kind of who am I after that, you know, when you wrap up your whole identity in something and then you lose it. 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:11.919 it's disorienting. 00:08:11.919 --> 00:08:22.560 So I was I was still very much in that kind of space of trying to, I guess, find myself again and and grieve the loss of who I thought I was and was going to be. 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:31.600 So when you made the decision to go to the rites, and presumably you told family members, you told uh loved ones, you told uh friends, maybe even like a spiritual director. 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:33.520 But what were their reactions to your decision? 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:41.760 Some were surprised because they knew that I had already done a similar thing through an organization called the Mankind Project. 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:44.840 And they're like, well, you know, didn't you already do that? 00:08:44.840 --> 00:08:47.080 You know, what's the difference? 00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:54.280 And not that they weren't supportive, they were just kind of like, well, you know, you've been there, you've done that, you've already engaged with men's work. 00:08:54.280 --> 00:08:55.080 Why? 00:08:54.959 --> 00:08:56.080 Why are you doing this? 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:05.680 You know, I found that the experiences to be different because it's not like there's just one thing that we need to work on as men or as human beings. 00:09:05.680 --> 00:09:08.640 And so whereas like the Mankind projects 00:09:08.940 --> 00:09:11.260 They call it their new warrior training adventure. 00:09:11.260 --> 00:09:15.980 It was very, it was mostly about being a man of integrity and a man of your word. 00:09:15.980 --> 00:09:17.340 And it was about. 00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:21.720 Excavating certain things in your life, but more just around. 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:25.960 Well, if you're familiar with these four masculine archetypes that 00:09:26.920 --> 00:09:30.120 Was it Robert Moore, I think, wrote the book about that? 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:30.600 Yeah. 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:37.240 So king, lover, warrior, magician, king, warrior, magician, uh, lover, magician. 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:40.120 And I found that MKP was a lot of king and warrior 00:09:40.280 --> 00:09:40.520 Energy. 00:09:40.740 --> 00:09:49.300 It was about stepping into your power, being a man of integrity, using your power for the good of others, owning responsibility. 00:09:49.300 --> 00:09:50.580 And that was really good. 00:09:50.580 --> 00:09:51.380 And that was 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:54.600 partially a thing that I needed at the time that I did it. 00:09:54.600 --> 00:10:03.560 But when I came to the right and when I came to the work that Illuman does, I found it to be a lot not king and warrior so much as lover and magician. 00:10:03.420 --> 00:10:10.139 Leaning into those parts of yourself that feel deeply and get beneath the surface of your emotions. 00:10:10.139 --> 00:10:10.860 People that 00:10:10.959 --> 00:10:20.720 are working towards transformation, moving beyond, not just like stepping into who they are, but also moving beyond who you are to who you can become. 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:23.840 And so that transformative aspect was important to me. 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:28.800 And so I think explaining that to people that were surprised that I was doing it. 00:10:28.800 --> 00:10:33.760 And yeah, because I like I had said, like I said, I needed some transformation. 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:38.800 At that point in my life, I needed to um shift from who I had been to who I was becoming. 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:40.400 Yeah, thank you for that explanation. 00:10:40.400 --> 00:10:42.480 Presumably, some of the men that will listen to this 00:10:42.620 --> 00:10:56.060 Will also have experience perhaps with Mankind Project, another training program that they do, or maybe just considering what are my options and what is the difference between a men's rites of passage and Mankind's offering. 00:10:56.060 --> 00:10:57.019 So, thank you. 00:10:57.220 --> 00:11:00.580 I want to ask you, so the day comes for your rites. 00:11:00.580 --> 00:11:03.380 You fly from Texas to New Jersey, presumably. 00:11:03.860 --> 00:11:05.220 Head out to Johnsonburg. 00:11:05.220 --> 00:11:09.380 I mean, you had - I probably had to fly to Newark or something like that and then drive. 00:11:09.400 --> 00:11:12.360 a considerable distance to get to the camp. 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:16.600 What I'm curious about is, were you carrying with you any expectations? 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:21.160 Or was there something you hoped to be initiated into when you arrived at the Wrights? 00:11:20.740 --> 00:11:27.220 I came in knowing more about it than I think a lot of people do because I was working for the organization. 00:11:27.220 --> 00:11:32.980 And so I I had an advantage that I don't have I kind of wish that I hadn't had because I 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:40.560 I would have liked to have gone into it a little more blind, a little more just kind of open to whatever was going to come. 00:11:40.560 --> 00:11:46.320 So I mean, I would say to most people, like, try not to come into it with too many expectations. 00:11:45.959 --> 00:11:51.080 come into it just with a sense of openness to whatever gets stirred up. 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:55.720 But I I knew kind of some of what was gonna go on and I and I did come in with 00:11:56.040 --> 00:11:58.680 An eagerness to do that specific work. 00:11:58.680 --> 00:12:03.399 I knew that there was going to, you know, spoiler alert, but I knew there was going to be some grief work 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:06.880 I knew there was going to be some kind of working on core wounds. 00:12:06.880 --> 00:12:12.319 And I was really looking forward to that because I came in saying, Yeah, I got a lot of grief right now about 00:12:12.980 --> 00:12:21.700 lost career and lost relationships and and just life not working out the way I'd I had thought it was going to. 00:12:21.700 --> 00:12:24.020 And I came in really eager to 00:12:24.520 --> 00:12:32.760 Get at that stuff, to process it, to find because uh what I what I found is that, you know, it's it's one thing to talk about those kinds of things. 00:12:32.760 --> 00:12:36.040 And I'd done therapy for years, but it's one thing to talk about that stuff. 00:12:36.040 --> 00:12:37.400 It's another thing to really 00:12:37.660 --> 00:12:40.540 In an embodied way, work with it. 00:12:40.540 --> 00:12:47.100 Not just talk and think, but like do something with the grief that you're carrying or with whatever you're carrying. 00:12:47.100 --> 00:12:48.380 And so I was. 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:52.480 Really looking forward to it working with it in a more somatic way. 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:56.400 Was there anything you were fearing as you headed into Wrights? 00:12:55.860 --> 00:13:04.980 It it's hard for us to kind of go into s us as human beings, as men, to go into um circumstances and not think of worry about what other people think of us. 00:13:05.140 --> 00:13:07.220 At least I I do. 00:13:07.579 --> 00:13:12.459 And so I still had this idea of like, well, what if I say something wrong? 00:13:12.860 --> 00:13:14.540 What if I'm too vulnerable? 00:13:14.540 --> 00:13:20.860 And some of that might have been because I did work for the organization and I kind of was like, well, you know, I'm balancing this. 00:13:21.140 --> 00:13:26.500 This tension between just being here as Mike and being here as an employee. 00:13:26.500 --> 00:13:28.100 So I had a little bit of fear around that. 00:13:28.100 --> 00:13:31.940 But I think it wasn't just because of that position I was in. 00:13:31.940 --> 00:13:33.700 It was also because that's just 00:13:34.420 --> 00:13:47.220 Who I am and who I think a lot of people are is just that that worry that other people are going to judge us or who we are or how we are, and that fear of being vulnerable, fear of being real. 00:13:46.920 --> 00:13:55.560 Yeah, so I went in a little bit a little bit guarded, a little bit unsure of how vulnerable and real I wanted to be. 00:13:54.860 --> 00:13:55.660 It's understandable. 00:13:55.660 --> 00:13:56.620 Thank you. 00:13:56.620 --> 00:13:58.060 So you get through the weekend. 00:13:58.060 --> 00:14:02.620 It's a four-night, five-day ritual event, but eventually it does come to an end. 00:14:02.620 --> 00:14:04.300 There's a closing ritual and there's some 00:14:04.540 --> 00:14:09.580 final councils and now it's time for you to depart Johnsonburg and head back to the airport. 00:14:09.580 --> 00:14:13.899 How were you feeling in those moments that uh right after the rites ended? 00:14:13.899 --> 00:14:17.100 Gosh, I remember feeling lighter. 00:14:16.540 --> 00:14:27.019 Yeah, that some of the rituals and some of the practices had helped me release some things, helped stir up some things that I was able to then let go of. 00:14:28.040 --> 00:14:36.120 I just remember feeling kind of elated or giddy of like, wow, you know, this is going to sound I don't know. 00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:40.279 Well, I don't know how this will sound, but it's just like I got to cry. 00:14:40.140 --> 00:14:42.460 you know, treat me the event, which I do. 00:14:42.460 --> 00:14:45.420 It's not like I'm I'm not one of those guys that doesn't cry. 00:14:45.420 --> 00:14:47.100 You know, I cry at movies and stuff. 00:14:47.100 --> 00:14:54.140 And but there was sense of like really that release that that kind of like 00:14:54.800 --> 00:15:00.240 Crying where you just you're actually just getting it all out, you know? 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:03.360 And I'd been able to have I'd have that. 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:07.840 I mean, I had cried, but it was also just that feeling that you have. 00:15:07.700 --> 00:15:16.660 After you've really just cried your heart out or just released your emotions in some primal visceral way, and then you feel lighter afterwards. 00:15:16.660 --> 00:15:17.540 You feel like 00:15:18.800 --> 00:15:19.920 You know that feeling? 00:15:19.920 --> 00:15:20.880 Yeah, yeah. 00:15:20.880 --> 00:15:22.160 Yeah, it was like that. 00:15:22.160 --> 00:15:25.040 So, what has changed in your life since making the rites? 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:28.480 I'm thinking kind of relationally, maybe even practically, spiritually. 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:30.399 Well, you know, a couple of things. 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:31.040 One, 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:37.120 I just talked about that release, but I also discovered that things come back around. 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:40.800 So it's not like the things that I worked on there were just gone forever. 00:15:40.800 --> 00:15:42.880 I was still carrying some of that grief. 00:15:42.880 --> 00:15:43.440 I was still 00:15:44.180 --> 00:15:45.700 was still a part of me. 00:15:45.700 --> 00:15:55.060 So realizing that the work was ongoing and that I I needed to take kind of some of the things that I experienced and learned there and keep doing them, keep applying them. 00:15:55.060 --> 00:15:58.180 I think also I did take with me more of that 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:12.800 A deeper understanding of that practice of counsel, speaking from the heart, listening from the heart, and tried applying that in just normal life with normal conversations with people of really practicing the presence of people. 00:16:12.800 --> 00:16:22.080 being fully there with them rather than just kind of in my head thinking about the next thing, which is a very, you know, at the end of the day, it's like it's 00:16:22.259 --> 00:16:23.540 it's kind of selfish, right? 00:16:23.540 --> 00:16:26.740 Like we're we're constantly just we're not really listening to someone else. 00:16:26.740 --> 00:16:31.380 We're just think worried about what I'm gonna say or how I'm gonna be perceived. 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:35.240 How I'm going to get out the things that I wanted to say. 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:42.360 And so letting go of that and really learning to value the other person in a way that they can feel. 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:46.240 So that they feel heard and seen and less alone. 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:50.640 So yeah, I came away with that as well. 00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:55.200 Have the rites impacted your relationships and even the conversations you have with other people? 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:56.320 And if so, how? 00:16:56.800 --> 00:17:01.280 Well, I mean, yeah, like I was just saying, I think that's the biggest thing is really 00:17:01.839 --> 00:17:04.000 trying to be present in a way that people can feel. 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:10.559 They feel seen and they feel heard and they feel like uh the things they said mattered and that they weren't. 00:17:10.300 --> 00:17:18.220 Alone, even you know, like you have that sense sometimes where you feel alone even when you're surrounded by other people. 00:17:18.220 --> 00:17:23.420 And I think it's because other, you know, it's often because other people are not fully present with you. 00:17:23.420 --> 00:17:23.980 And so 00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:28.360 Yeah, it's it's shifted my friendships, my relationships. 00:17:28.360 --> 00:17:33.799 I I hope that my friends feel like I'm more present with them since I did the rites. 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:41.720 So how has your understanding of masculinity, initiation, or the male purpose in life shifted since you made your rites? 00:17:41.340 --> 00:17:50.059 This might be controversial, but I don't see the rites as something that's just for men or even specifically about being a man. 00:17:50.060 --> 00:17:52.300 I went in that was something surprising to me, actually. 00:17:52.300 --> 00:17:55.660 I went into it because it's called we call it the men's rites of passage. 00:17:55.660 --> 00:17:59.100 Illuman focuses specifically on men's work. 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:04.240 But really, the things that I experienced there and the things that we did is just human work. 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:07.520 It's something that is irrespective of gender, really. 00:18:07.520 --> 00:18:09.600 It's something we all need. 00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:14.040 In fact, I got I got home and I told my therapist about it and she was like, Well, I want something like that. 00:18:14.040 --> 00:18:17.400 Is there like anyone doing rites women's rites of passage? 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:20.520 So yeah, I really it's it didn't shift my 00:18:21.220 --> 00:18:23.220 Perception of masculinity. 00:18:23.460 --> 00:18:28.820 I can see how it would, though, for a lot of guys if you were coming as the kind of guy that 00:18:29.040 --> 00:18:33.600 Had never experienced that with other men before that because I mean, let's be real. 00:18:33.600 --> 00:18:37.440 I mean, a lot of guys don't have the ability to be vulnerable. 00:18:37.360 --> 00:18:41.760 Or often or real about their feelings or their emotions with other men. 00:18:41.760 --> 00:18:43.280 And that wasn't true for me. 00:18:43.280 --> 00:18:44.720 I had had lots of 00:18:44.860 --> 00:18:56.220 opportunities in my life and lots of men in my life, and in part because I had already previously encountered the Mankind Project, which also creates a similar freedom to be vulnerable for guys. 00:18:55.840 --> 00:18:59.039 So for me, I already had that in my life. 00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:07.440 And I had already worked through how to be a man that lives more authentically into his feelings and isn't afraid to be vulnerable with others. 00:19:06.919 --> 00:19:20.039 But if you've never experienced that before, then the men's rites of passage would definitely be revolutionary in your understanding that men can go there and we can be that. 00:19:20.019 --> 00:19:26.019 without threatening whatever other parts of ourselves that we think also comprises our masculinity. 00:19:26.580 --> 00:19:27.460 Yeah, thank you. 00:19:27.460 --> 00:19:31.220 I appreciate your perspective on that and wholeheartedly agree that 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:35.200 But this is the kind of work that both men and women really need to do. 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:43.360 Pushing back a little bit on that, is there a case to be made for men doing this work in men-only spaces? 00:19:43.280 --> 00:19:45.120 Yeah, absolutely. 00:19:45.120 --> 00:19:52.720 Just because of the way that we're conditioned as men, it's hard for us to do that and be that with women. 00:19:53.040 --> 00:19:56.560 I mean, I think that's especially true for heterosexual men. 00:19:56.220 --> 00:20:04.220 Because we have this constant pressure to perform, to impress, to act differently when women are around. 00:20:04.220 --> 00:20:04.860 And that's 00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:08.720 that's not something you can deprogram from easily. 00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:15.760 And so to even have the conditions where you could begin to think about opening up in those ways, it's probably 00:20:16.120 --> 00:20:18.920 necessary to take out that variable. 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:30.200 But you know, and I don't think that's only heterosexual men because even if you're not attracted to women, you're still socialized into this way of being. 00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:43.139 And you're also there's also a sense in which women need men to be a certain way because of patriarchy, because of kind of the systems of power and power difference in our structure in our society. 00:20:42.919 --> 00:20:49.160 Women need men to be safe because a lot of men aren't safe. 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:51.559 And safe is a thing that 00:20:51.800 --> 00:20:53.880 Men have to work to get to sometimes. 00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:59.240 Sometimes men don't know how to be safe yet, or we don't even realize that we've been unsafe. 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:05.160 And so the rites are a place where you start to do that work. 00:21:04.820 --> 00:21:09.220 start to become the kind of man that can be safe for others. 00:21:09.220 --> 00:21:13.220 But it has to go through kind of a a valley of 00:21:13.620 --> 00:21:18.340 Working through the parts of yourself that are less presentable and less safe. 00:21:18.340 --> 00:21:21.460 So, you need a container that can hold that. 00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:26.680 the best container for that is with other men who aren't going to be threatened in the same kind of way. 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:34.440 And so we we hold each other as we do this hard work of becoming healthier, safer men, if that makes sense. 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:35.120 Yeah. 00:21:35.120 --> 00:21:42.800 And I've noticed over the years since the elder rites were developed, they expanded that work to include what they call an elder's weave. 00:21:42.800 --> 00:21:48.080 I think there's been the understanding that's come from doing work in the later stages of life that the 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:54.640 spiritual journey of men and women kind of merges back together, even in this culture, in this time and place. 00:21:54.640 --> 00:22:00.880 And so now they have an event that does incorporate both the journey for men and for women as well. 00:22:00.360 --> 00:22:06.919 And some of the men that I've I've interviewed have have been on both of those experiences, both the Elder Wrights or the Elder Weave as well. 00:22:06.919 --> 00:22:09.720 So I mean, it's it's a both and, right? 00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:09.960 Like 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:18.320 It would be ridiculous to think that the men's rites of passage or the work that a lumen does is the only thing that a person should engage with. 00:22:18.320 --> 00:22:19.600 You know, like I need 00:22:19.840 --> 00:22:28.559 men's work in my life, but I also really need to be with women and do similar kinds of work with them as well. 00:22:28.040 --> 00:22:32.280 You know, so it it's yeah, it it's not an e either or. 00:22:32.280 --> 00:22:41.880 But I but like I said, sometimes you have to do the the gender specific work first before you can be the kind of person that's safe to do that work with others. 00:22:41.360 --> 00:22:48.799 But yeah, I mean, even for myself, I'm kind of moving past the desire to kind of do men's work specifically. 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:53.360 I find this hunger to be in more mixed gender groups. 00:22:52.740 --> 00:22:59.860 Just because there's some richness there that I that can be missing too if you're only ever doing your deep work with men. 00:22:59.860 --> 00:23:03.060 So well, for a long time I've had a small group 00:23:02.919 --> 00:23:06.280 That we call a porch circle, like sitting on a front porch together. 00:23:06.280 --> 00:23:10.679 And it's like a council, but it's co-ed, it's mixed gender 00:23:10.740 --> 00:23:12.340 And that's been really rich too. 00:23:12.340 --> 00:23:16.260 Yeah, that reminds me, Mike, I was at the Wild Goose Festival with you back. 00:23:16.260 --> 00:23:18.100 I think it was 2024 that summer. 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:24.640 We held a council for some of the festival goers, and that was both men and women. 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:25.840 And that was an incredibly 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:27.600 deep and rich experience. 00:23:27.600 --> 00:23:29.440 So that was that was wonderful. 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:30.080 Yeah. 00:23:30.080 --> 00:23:36.960 And well, and ag yeah, again, I mean, the the way of counsel, the practice of counsel is also not a gender specific thing. 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:37.520 It's 00:23:37.540 --> 00:23:41.780 It's just a useful tool for how to gather people in groups to go deeper. 00:23:42.180 --> 00:23:42.500 Yeah. 00:23:42.500 --> 00:23:51.380 I you know, I wouldn't I would advise people not to come in to the rites thinking that it's just about being a man or about masculinity. 00:23:51.140 --> 00:23:53.700 It's just a container to do your inner work. 00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:59.220 And the fact that it is kind of all men makes it hopefully makes it easier to do that inner work. 00:23:59.220 --> 00:24:04.820 Although I'll be honest, like I found that challenging as well in a good way, but challenging to me because I 00:24:05.140 --> 00:24:07.460 I don't always feel safe with men either. 00:24:07.460 --> 00:24:13.300 Like in the s same way that women don't feel safe with men, men don't feel safe with other men sometimes because 00:24:13.740 --> 00:24:19.180 We're the harshest enforcers enforcers of our own emotional stuntedness. 00:24:19.180 --> 00:24:24.060 There are homosexual men that ask me, is this a safe environment for for men who aren't straight? 00:24:23.919 --> 00:24:29.120 And I you know, I can assure them that it is, but you know, I can understand their their reluctance. 00:24:29.120 --> 00:24:32.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah, because queer men and gay men have 00:24:33.740 --> 00:24:38.140 Often b borne the brunt of toxic masculine behavior. 00:24:38.140 --> 00:24:43.260 And even though I'm straight, like I also experienced that growing up. 00:24:43.260 --> 00:24:44.620 You know, I came from a very 00:24:45.380 --> 00:24:58.020 Rather violent, rural, you know, Midwestern small town background, and you know, where the only things to do were hunting, fishing, working on your truck, and fighting. 00:24:57.620 --> 00:25:06.580 You know, I got into a disproportionate number of fights in my high school years and I wasn't even, you know, that kind of guy, but it was just people were aggressive and that's what it meant to be a man was 00:25:06.940 --> 00:25:08.620 that kind of violent aggression. 00:25:08.620 --> 00:25:13.740 And it made me learn to not trust most men and to not want to be around a lot of a lot of men. 00:25:13.740 --> 00:25:16.299 Yeah, so I did go and kind of 00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:17.559 with that guard up. 00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:25.799 Like I said earlier, that was part of what was powerful about it was being able to be around other men that it was safe to let that guard that guard down with. 00:25:25.260 --> 00:25:34.380 You know, you touched on something a little bit earlier that I just kind of want to emphasize: is that doing a men's rites of passage does not paint you into a box or preclude you from doing anything else? 00:25:34.380 --> 00:25:37.900 I think that's one of the things I like about the Illuman work, it may open you up into 00:25:38.860 --> 00:25:41.180 some other avenues and some other paths. 00:25:41.180 --> 00:25:45.580 And so I guess that's a lead in I want to offer you this question. 00:25:45.740 --> 00:25:49.580 If a man is does come up to you, Mike, and says, you know, I'm considering doing the rites 00:25:49.900 --> 00:25:50.860 Of passage. 00:25:50.860 --> 00:25:53.100 What would be your advice to him? 00:25:53.500 --> 00:26:02.940 I think I would reiterate what I said earlier about don't go in with any expectations, go in with openness, willing to receive whatever comes. 00:26:02.900 --> 00:26:11.140 I would say go in courageously, you know, with the the bravery to to be vulnerable, the the courage to 00:26:11.800 --> 00:26:14.680 Be real, especially with yourself. 00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:19.080 I've been talking about how hard it is to be vulnerable and real with other people. 00:26:19.080 --> 00:26:23.240 It's also hard to be really honest and vulnerable with yourself. 00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:27.240 We hide so much from our own selves, things we don't want to admit to ourselves. 00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:34.440 And I'd encourage them to kind of go in willing to do the hard work of really confronting what's inside you. 00:26:34.179 --> 00:26:38.500 It does take some of that warrior energy to go in and be unafraid. 00:26:38.500 --> 00:26:42.820 Mike, you spent three, four years as the administrator for Illuman. 00:26:42.820 --> 00:26:44.899 And people that don't know, that's a big job. 00:26:44.899 --> 00:26:47.460 When you're at the center of this organization that's kind of 00:26:47.540 --> 00:26:51.540 Geographically dispersed, and there's a lot of people coming at you from all different directions. 00:26:51.700 --> 00:26:54.340 I mean, it's a really demanding job. 00:26:54.340 --> 00:27:00.100 I have happened to have a peek at it from my position, even working within a chapter of Illuman. 00:27:00.460 --> 00:27:09.900 I really admire what you did for the organization and how you performed and responded with all these demands and all these guys coming after you. 00:27:09.400 --> 00:27:23.720 I think a lot of people would that are listening to this that know you would like to know what did you learn from being the Lumen Administrator about working in community, organization building and just anything else you'd like to say about that experience? 00:27:23.700 --> 00:27:29.620 Community building and working in a small organization, it's all about the relationships. 00:27:29.620 --> 00:27:34.820 People want to work with you and together with you because they trust you as a person. 00:27:34.460 --> 00:27:46.780 And so that vulnerability and that honesty that was part of the MROP experience was relevant to the organization as a whole, that you had to have that same attitude. 00:27:46.679 --> 00:27:54.600 when you're when you're talking through spreadsheets or or you know planning budgets or communication strategies or whatever, you know, and and 00:27:54.940 --> 00:28:02.220 You guys, you know, Brian, you know, I like, I think of you as a friend, not as a co-worker or whatever. 00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:05.179 And I feel that way about all the men that I got to work with. 00:28:05.179 --> 00:28:06.940 It's it we weren't just like 00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:17.440 running an organization together, we were brothers that were pulling in the same direction for a shared common purpose and shared passion. 00:28:17.019 --> 00:28:18.539 you know, that bondsman together. 00:28:18.539 --> 00:28:25.179 And so I really enjoyed working with the women in that way because it didn't just feel like 00:28:25.340 --> 00:28:25.900 a job. 00:28:25.900 --> 00:28:29.740 It felt like it felt like a real community of a band of brothers. 00:28:29.740 --> 00:28:30.620 Yeah, thank you for that. 00:28:30.620 --> 00:28:35.340 Relationships are really important in this work, and that's one of the things I value as well. 00:28:34.760 --> 00:28:37.240 So just to have really one last question, Mike. 00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:39.880 Where are to next on your spiritual journey? 00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:41.240 Or where are you heading from here? 00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:42.600 What's going on for you now? 00:28:42.600 --> 00:28:47.080 I'm in kind of a life redefinition phase, a life reset. 00:28:46.900 --> 00:28:54.100 You know, with the job ending several months ago, and I also ended a relationship back in January 00:28:54.780 --> 00:28:58.220 And my youngest daughter graduating high school. 00:28:58.220 --> 00:29:04.060 I also moved back into a house that I owned and lived in 10 years ago, but now I'm back in it. 00:29:04.060 --> 00:29:08.060 So it's just, it feels like a lot of things in my life have been reset. 00:29:08.019 --> 00:29:14.260 And so I'm in a season of figuring out what comes next and what do I want next. 00:29:14.500 --> 00:29:20.820 It can be parenting, especially single parenting, can be really this sprint. 00:29:20.419 --> 00:29:23.700 And you never really have time to sit pause and catch your breath. 00:29:23.700 --> 00:29:28.340 And so now that I'm in this kind of whole new phase of parenting and not tied down with 00:29:28.540 --> 00:29:30.620 You know, a job or anything else at the moment. 00:29:30.620 --> 00:29:36.380 It's an opportunity to reevaluate and take a breath and look around and say, okay, 00:29:36.419 --> 00:29:37.299 Where am I? 00:29:37.299 --> 00:29:38.260 What do I want? 00:29:38.260 --> 00:29:39.539 Who do I want to be next? 00:29:39.539 --> 00:29:40.900 It's a bit daunting. 00:29:40.900 --> 00:29:50.179 It feels a bit overwhelming to kind of not really have anything in particular that's solid or certain, kind of starting from scratch. 00:29:49.980 --> 00:29:51.580 I'm trying to just take that slow. 00:29:51.580 --> 00:29:54.700