WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:12.160 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:11.460 --> 00:00:12.740 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:12.740 --> 00:00:18.180 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.180 --> 00:00:24.740 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:24.260 --> 00:00:33.700 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterwards. 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:42.280 This podcast is truly a labor of love, inspired by my own transformative experience at the men's rites of passage and my ongoing commitment to the Illuman Community. 00:00:41.560 --> 00:00:48.200 It's also informed by my work with Choosing Presence, where we believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:50.360 In a world of constant distraction 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:53.120 Choosing Presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. 00:00:53.120 --> 00:00:59.760 If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot 00:00:59.840 --> 00:01:01.200 org slash app. 00:01:00.760 --> 00:01:06.200 And if you'd like to support the show, I invite you to learn more about me and my work as a poet at BriansPoems dot 00:01:06.360 --> 00:01:06.920 com. 00:01:06.920 --> 00:01:13.400 Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second. 00:01:12.960 --> 00:01:16.640 shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. 00:01:16.640 --> 00:01:22.080 On this show we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:01:21.160 --> 00:01:27.480 Today I'm joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:01:34.260 --> 00:01:35.939 My guest today is Jay Gallamore. 00:01:35.939 --> 00:01:37.060 Brother, I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:37.060 --> 00:01:40.100 Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. 00:01:40.100 --> 00:01:40.820 Yeah, thanks. 00:01:40.820 --> 00:01:42.020 Glad to be here. 00:01:42.020 --> 00:01:45.299 Jay, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:01:45.120 --> 00:01:56.000 Well, I'm originally from Indiana, but I traveled all over in my career, so I retired and I currently my feet touch the ground in Southern Maryland. 00:01:55.520 --> 00:02:00.000 Down in a small town called Lusby, near Solomon's Island, about an hour south of 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:00.159 D.C. 00:02:00.399 --> 00:02:04.159 And I'm full-time retired from my career, but 00:02:04.720 --> 00:02:07.040 I stay involved in some volunteer work. 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:12.080 So, this in Al-Anon, and there's a group of my 00:02:12.640 --> 00:02:20.959 Illuman Brothers, we have a subgroup of our local council, but we do bicycling together and my wife and I, you know, are like best friends, so a lot of stuff with her. 00:02:20.959 --> 00:02:23.040 But yeah, I'm it's what I do as a retired guy. 00:02:23.040 --> 00:02:24.879 I'm I'm busy. 00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:27.440 Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. 00:02:27.440 --> 00:02:29.280 The MROP is a unique experience. 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:30.800 It's not a retreat or a workshop. 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:32.080 It's an initiation. 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:36.720 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. 00:02:36.720 --> 00:02:39.520 Before we dive into the wine the how, let's start at the very beginning. 00:02:39.460 --> 00:02:42.180 Jay, when and where did you make your rites? 00:02:42.500 --> 00:02:49.780 So I did my first rites at Shrine Mont, my MROP, in I believe it was 2024. 00:02:49.780 --> 00:02:50.900 I had been in 00:02:51.720 --> 00:02:54.519 Illuman about a year at that point. 00:02:54.840 --> 00:02:58.439 And do you recall who the Weaver was and about how many men were at your rites? 00:02:58.760 --> 00:03:02.040 Yeah, the Weaver was Ned Abenroth. 00:03:03.200 --> 00:03:11.760 I want to say there was probably fifty something men, if not more, at you know, initiates not returning folks. 00:03:11.760 --> 00:03:13.840 There was probably sixty or seventy total. 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:16.240 It seems there was a lot of people there. 00:03:15.920 --> 00:03:24.560 Now, I want to invite you to think back to that weekend and see if you can tell us what's the first image or the first feeling that came forth for you? 00:03:24.040 --> 00:03:25.880 I'll back up a little bit from that. 00:03:26.120 --> 00:03:30.760 When I first came into Illuman, I was invited by a friend of mine. 00:03:30.760 --> 00:03:36.280 I was brand new in 2023, I believe it was. 00:03:36.280 --> 00:03:36.600 And 00:03:37.320 --> 00:03:42.920 I had only been to a few local councils and I heard about this gathering they had called Awaken. 00:03:42.920 --> 00:03:47.560 And I said, Hey, you know, is there a s you know, do you have to go through a set? 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:49.720 Process and they're like, No. 00:03:49.720 --> 00:03:53.079 So I went to Awaken as a brand new guy. 00:03:53.079 --> 00:03:55.319 And you know that because you and I were roommates. 00:03:56.120 --> 00:04:07.400 I was very much out of my comfort zone just because there was a lot of stuff with the rituals that I wasn't used to: the drumming, the dancing, some of that. 00:04:07.720 --> 00:04:08.040 So 00:04:08.920 --> 00:04:13.720 I eventually, you know, I quickly thought about it, got over it, and by the end of it, really embraced it. 00:04:13.720 --> 00:04:18.680 So, here a year later, I kind of assumed there would be similar things. 00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:21.720 So, I wasn't nervous, but I remember when I showed up 00:04:22.020 --> 00:04:23.860 to the MROP. 00:04:23.860 --> 00:04:24.820 I pulled in. 00:04:24.820 --> 00:04:28.660 If you've been to Shrine Mont, they have the big building, but there's a parking lot. 00:04:28.660 --> 00:04:30.020 They kind of direct you back there. 00:04:30.020 --> 00:04:33.860 They took my luggage and I was like, well, this is interesting. 00:04:33.820 --> 00:04:42.060 And I parked, I came back, and I remember they kind of said, okay, they led you to the registration table, but they wanted you to be quiet. 00:04:41.620 --> 00:04:46.340 You get your ID and lanyard, then you start on a path. 00:04:46.340 --> 00:04:48.180 And it was just curious. 00:04:48.180 --> 00:04:54.419 I didn't, you know, I was trying to keep a totally open mind, but I just remember walking on the path. 00:04:54.139 --> 00:04:56.460 And everything at Shrine Mont's uphill. 00:04:56.780 --> 00:05:01.820 But I remember I was hiking up through the woods, and there's like, oh, there's a body, you know, and 00:05:01.960 --> 00:05:07.240 and you come up to different guys and they're doing different things like blessing you, saging you and stuff. 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:14.039 But it it was a real nice transition from the everyday world, the outside world into kind of 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:20.240 Silence and starting to get into the sacred space in the container. 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:22.080 It was just a nice transition 00:05:22.440 --> 00:05:24.200 Could you tell us a story from that weekend? 00:05:24.200 --> 00:05:31.480 Maybe you had an encounter with another man, or there was some event or some ritual that was especially poignant for you? 00:05:31.060 --> 00:05:33.060 Is there something that you won't mind sharing? 00:05:33.060 --> 00:05:39.380 Yes, I think well, like I said, I tried to keep as as they say beginner's mind. 00:05:39.380 --> 00:05:42.340 I really was open to all of this. 00:05:42.340 --> 00:05:44.740 But I'll tell you the one event that 00:05:45.660 --> 00:05:51.020 Immediately comes to mind was they called it the mirror gauntlet at the time. 00:05:51.340 --> 00:05:55.660 And I had a really good upbringing. 00:05:55.660 --> 00:05:58.860 My parents were together their whole lives. 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:01.680 I don't have any father wounds that I'm aware of. 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:04.080 I just had a really good upbringing. 00:06:04.080 --> 00:06:07.120 And so the mirror gauntlet was. 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:09.400 It was very emotional for me. 00:06:09.400 --> 00:06:16.600 I had this realization that, wow, there are other men out here that have some childhood wounds that I. 00:06:17.020 --> 00:06:18.460 I never went through. 00:06:18.460 --> 00:06:21.660 And so it was shocking on one hand. 00:06:21.660 --> 00:06:24.220 It made me appreciative of my upbringing. 00:06:24.220 --> 00:06:27.420 Not that I didn't have some wounds later in life from other things, but 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:38.840 it kind of shook me to my core to see some of these other men, both their openness to be vulnerable, what they were carrying and some of the things that they were there to address. 00:06:39.080 --> 00:06:41.800 That was an eye-opener for me. 00:06:41.320 --> 00:06:46.440 Now you mentioned attending Awaken in 2023, I believe at the invitation of a friend. 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:49.400 That certainly set you on a pathway, perhaps. 00:06:49.840 --> 00:06:52.640 What are the circumstances in your life that led you to the rites? 00:06:52.880 --> 00:06:56.560 What was happening at that time that said, yeah, for you, I need to register for this? 00:06:56.880 --> 00:07:02.080 Ten, eleven years earlier, my life was kind of unraveling 00:07:02.620 --> 00:07:07.419 My previous marriage, I it it was lasted a total of twenty nine years. 00:07:07.419 --> 00:07:13.180 My mother-in-law was at the end of her life and and my wife was was starting to 00:07:13.840 --> 00:07:19.520 circle back into addiction and alcoholism, and she was spending a lot of time trying to take care of her mom. 00:07:19.520 --> 00:07:23.520 I was coming to the end of my kind of second career 00:07:24.060 --> 00:07:31.420 And I didn't realize it at the time, but PTSD was jumping up and I went into a depression. 00:07:31.420 --> 00:07:38.220 You know, my wife and I split up and just all kinds of stuff on both of our lives unraveled. 00:07:38.039 --> 00:07:45.159 And I've always believed in God, but I count that as my beginning of my spiritual journey. 00:07:45.159 --> 00:07:50.759 So a year later, I got medical help and counseling and I started to recover. 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:52.199 But when I came out of 00:07:52.880 --> 00:07:59.280 Started coming out of that period, that's when I kind of began my spiritual journey. 00:07:59.280 --> 00:08:04.880 I had converted to Catholicism, so you know, kept going to Al-Anon. 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:06.479 Church was a big part of my life. 00:08:06.479 --> 00:08:09.280 And in there, I ended up getting divorced from my wife. 00:08:09.280 --> 00:08:13.040 And then subsequently, she passed away from her addiction. 00:08:12.900 --> 00:08:16.100 And I remarried eventually years later. 00:08:16.100 --> 00:08:25.940 So now, ten years after all that stuff, I always describe it as I was on this big wide road, which was my spiritual journey. 00:08:25.539 --> 00:08:32.099 And I was in a big old truck with pretty loose steering, so I'm doing a lot of weaving on this wide road. 00:08:32.099 --> 00:08:35.539 And when a friend of mine invited me to Illuman 00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:38.880 It just a lot of stuff seemed to click. 00:08:38.880 --> 00:08:44.320 I was familiar with Richard Rohr and some of his readings, especially Breathing Underwater. 00:08:44.720 --> 00:08:49.920 From his approach to the twelve steps, but I didn't know about this other stuff. 00:08:49.920 --> 00:08:55.920 So I always describe this as that was the point the road got narrower and the steering tightened up 00:08:56.220 --> 00:09:07.420 So I always count that at about 2023 when I started coming, that it just seemed like Illuman offered a lot of things that narrowed the path on my spiritual journey. 00:09:07.420 --> 00:09:10.300 So I hope that answers your question. 00:09:10.140 --> 00:09:12.300 No, I really like how you described it there. 00:09:12.300 --> 00:09:14.620 Now you made the decision to register for the rites. 00:09:14.620 --> 00:09:19.420 Presumably, you told some of your friends, your family members, your wife, somebody, people in your community. 00:09:19.420 --> 00:09:21.100 What was their reaction? 00:09:20.920 --> 00:09:24.920 Yeah, for those that know him, I'm in the local council with John Ball. 00:09:24.920 --> 00:09:26.040 He was one of the founders. 00:09:26.040 --> 00:09:31.079 And so we have a pretty active, fairly large local council that we meet in person regularly. 00:09:31.079 --> 00:09:35.319 But so John and all my council brothers were very supportive. 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:41.920 My wife, you know, trying to protect the anonymity of the councils, but yet tell her what's going on. 00:09:41.920 --> 00:09:43.680 And she she was supportive. 00:09:43.680 --> 00:09:45.040 She, you know, she likes 00:09:45.140 --> 00:09:47.700 She she likes what it does to me. 00:09:47.700 --> 00:09:49.460 So she was supportive. 00:09:49.460 --> 00:09:51.300 So, yeah, I had a lot of support. 00:09:51.300 --> 00:09:54.740 And then when I went back, of course, everybody wants to know how it was. 00:09:55.339 --> 00:09:59.660 You know, you talk about it in council and was able to describe some things to my wife. 00:09:59.660 --> 00:10:01.339 But I had a lot of support. 00:10:01.339 --> 00:10:03.100 I didn't have anybody. 00:10:03.100 --> 00:10:03.579 I don't know. 00:10:03.579 --> 00:10:06.620 It seems like everybody was familiar that I was in a Illuman. 00:10:06.620 --> 00:10:07.019 I had 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:14.240 I had, you know, like my brother and some other friends that doesn't know about, you know, you kind of have to explain, but I'm just I'm in this men's group, etc. 00:10:14.400 --> 00:10:16.000 But yeah, it was good. 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:17.760 I had a lot of support. 00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:18.560 Oh, it's great to hear. 00:10:18.560 --> 00:10:25.840 Now, you made your rites at Shrine Mont in Orkney Springs, and I know that location because we've done the Awaken our annual gathering there twice. 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:28.240 And like you said, everything is uphill there. 00:10:28.560 --> 00:10:30.640 It's on the side of a mountain. 00:10:30.259 --> 00:10:33.540 It's so beautiful in Virginia. 00:10:33.540 --> 00:10:38.660 But as you kind of rolled into the rites the day that you came, what was on your mind? 00:10:38.660 --> 00:10:39.540 What was on your heart? 00:10:39.540 --> 00:10:42.899 Was there something that you hoped to be initiated into? 00:10:43.100 --> 00:10:47.180 You know, no, I didn't have a specific thing. 00:10:47.180 --> 00:10:57.420 I was aware that I had a couple things that were still lingering from some PTSD and from my divorce and subsequent death of my former spouse. 00:10:57.420 --> 00:11:05.819 What really surprised me was, and I would encourage anybody that's going or considering to do as I did, which is show up with a very open mind, was 00:11:06.700 --> 00:11:10.620 I didn't appreciate till I was there how effective the rituals are. 00:11:10.620 --> 00:11:16.540 And I tell people, they're not a bunch of stuff that somebody just threw together and said, oh, let's hassle these guys. 00:11:16.259 --> 00:11:20.740 There's a lot of thought, as you know, and Ned did his graduate work on this. 00:11:20.740 --> 00:11:27.620 But it surprised me how the rituals would just evoke emotions. 00:11:27.020 --> 00:11:34.620 And sometimes, you know, I I've asked a couple of times, you know, what is the human capacity for tears and snot? 00:11:34.620 --> 00:11:35.580 Because you find 00:11:36.040 --> 00:11:41.399 You know, you get these things that come out, you cry, and you're in a good, safe place. 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:46.040 But it's surprising sometimes what pops out and what comes to the surface within you. 00:11:46.040 --> 00:11:49.880 And I think I speak for almost anybody that's been through that. 00:11:49.459 --> 00:11:51.380 you know, from talking to him and everything. 00:11:51.380 --> 00:11:55.540 So, yeah, it just really draws things out. 00:11:55.540 --> 00:12:02.100 So I didn't have a specific thing, but it but I was a little surprised by some of the things that did end up boiling to the surface. 00:12:01.640 --> 00:12:05.000 Were you carrying any fear with you as you headed into the rites? 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:09.000 No, like I said, when I went to Awaken the previous year 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:14.000 I was really out of my comfort zone, and I think I rode with another brother. 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:17.680 I think if I had driven myself, I possibly would have left. 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:23.720 And I had to sit there and think about, and you and I may have even talked about this, but I was like, why was I upset? 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:28.520 You know, no one did anything to me, no one was forcing me to do anything. 00:12:28.900 --> 00:12:30.740 But I was just out of sorts. 00:12:30.740 --> 00:12:32.260 I wasn't used to the ritual. 00:12:32.420 --> 00:12:35.620 I think some of it was the dancing and the drumming. 00:12:35.620 --> 00:12:42.260 But on the other side, I came to this realization, and I still describe it today, that every single person I met 00:12:42.620 --> 00:12:46.220 Was the most genuine men I've ever been around. 00:12:46.220 --> 00:12:48.459 So, no, I I didn't really have any fear. 00:12:48.459 --> 00:12:52.380 I think I got over my being uncomfortable at Awaken. 00:12:52.380 --> 00:12:56.220 And once again, I just came into the MROP with an open mind and 00:12:57.020 --> 00:13:01.660 I had a really good experience as far as, you know, I didn't have anything I feared about it. 00:13:01.900 --> 00:13:04.700 I'm a retired military guy, so I've been through 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:06.880 Initiations and hazing. 00:13:06.880 --> 00:13:12.080 And so, you know, if you're not going to hit me here or something like that, I'm fine 00:13:12.839 --> 00:13:17.399 But the rites still are a significant commitment in terms of it's parts of five days, it's four nights. 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:25.720 Once you kind of enter into the process, you really go and it you're going into that process with other men and you're asked to show up for your council or home group. 00:13:24.959 --> 00:13:26.399 You get through that experience. 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:28.240 Presumably, you do a lot of internal work. 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:29.760 You bond with other men. 00:13:29.760 --> 00:13:33.519 But then the closing ritual comes and it's time for you to leave and head home. 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:37.279 How did you feel immediately as you drove away from Shrine Mont? 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:40.560 You know, and it's been with the other things I've been involved with. 00:13:40.560 --> 00:13:48.560 My subsequent I went through the elders' rites, and then this year I helped with the elders' weave as a returning man. 00:13:48.560 --> 00:13:49.920 And even as a 00:13:50.520 --> 00:13:55.880 Even as coming back and supporting, I was physically and mentally exhausted. 00:13:55.880 --> 00:13:59.800 And like I said, I rode with another brother. 00:13:59.640 --> 00:14:00.760 He's an introvert. 00:14:00.760 --> 00:14:01.960 I am not. 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:04.440 There was a lot of silence on the way home. 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:09.000 He he was a returning man at that, but I had journaled 00:14:09.520 --> 00:14:16.160 But you never find enough time there to do all the journaling 'cause it seems like when it's time to go to bed, you need to go to bed. 00:14:16.160 --> 00:14:17.360 You're tired. 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:21.680 But I think in the subsequent days, I did a lot of journaling of thoughts. 00:14:21.560 --> 00:14:30.920 And even here we are in 2026, I still go back and look at that journal and think about things, and I've made some minor adjustments. 00:14:30.420 --> 00:14:36.019 in my life and in my spiritual practices as I do after everything. 00:14:36.019 --> 00:14:37.139 So, yeah, leave it. 00:14:37.139 --> 00:14:41.940 I was this tired, but I was quiet and I was very contemplative. 00:14:41.520 --> 00:14:45.520 Now, what has changed in your life since you made your first rites of passage? 00:14:45.520 --> 00:14:48.640 I'm thinking practically, relationally, even spiritually. 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:53.360 Right before as I was coming out of that dark time of my life 00:14:53.520 --> 00:15:03.680 I made a decision at the end of my career, I was in a pretty technical field, and we did a lot of stuff by you know, we had to do a lot of risk management. 00:15:03.680 --> 00:15:05.680 So I used to joke that 00:15:05.940 --> 00:15:12.900 I think I'm a Three on the Enneagram and I'm an ESTJ in the Myers Briggs. 00:15:12.900 --> 00:15:20.420 So my joke is that it used to be if I took a nap on Saturday, I probably scheduled it and planned it on Thursday before. 00:15:20.880 --> 00:15:32.240 And I made a conscious decision to, at that point in my life, as I was transitioning, to do more things from my heart and not my head. 00:15:31.640 --> 00:15:34.680 Don't analyze the living crap out of everything I did. 00:15:34.680 --> 00:15:37.000 And that has served me really well. 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:43.880 And then, more specifically, I made a lot of changes after the MRO. 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:48.120 I I had a prayer practice, but I didn't really have a meditation practice. 00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:52.280 So I started working on I have I do it in the morning. 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:54.600 I get up really early and 00:15:55.040 --> 00:16:03.680 I started incorporating meditation with my prayer life and then incorporating presence throughout the day. 00:16:03.680 --> 00:16:05.519 And I have some specific rituals. 00:16:05.680 --> 00:16:07.600 You know, I have my own singing bowl and 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:15.640 candles in silence, so it's just the short answer is I developed some rituals and after each 00:16:15.839 --> 00:16:22.240 about every year, I kind of revisit those and make minor adjustments as I feel I want to. 00:16:22.560 --> 00:16:28.079 Now I've realized from my own experience and involvement that the men's rites of passage really changed 00:16:28.040 --> 00:16:32.839 both the conversations I would have with other men and other people and also my relationships. 00:16:32.839 --> 00:16:35.800 So I want to ask you, is that true from your experience as well? 00:16:35.800 --> 00:16:37.080 And if so, how? 00:16:37.220 --> 00:16:41.060 So how did it change my relationships with men and other people? 00:16:41.060 --> 00:16:43.940 Is that as well as your conversations, perhaps? 00:16:43.940 --> 00:16:44.580 Yeah. 00:16:45.560 --> 00:16:57.000 I have found in my religious life, I don't want to be one of these folks when someone sees me coming and going, Oh God, here comes Jay, and he's going to beat me over the head with religion. 00:16:57.000 --> 00:16:57.240 So 00:16:57.540 --> 00:16:59.140 I sometimes sneak it in. 00:16:59.140 --> 00:17:04.900 You know, I'm not ashamed to tell people, you know, I'm a Catholic and that I believe in God. 00:17:04.900 --> 00:17:05.220 But 00:17:05.819 --> 00:17:13.819 I think it's more important that I try to do things as how I live my life and not verbally preach so much. 00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:19.400 You know, obviously with my Illuman brothers, and I said we have a subset of us that ride bicycles together and everything. 00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:26.360 I mean, even when we're out in the woods mountain biking or on the trails, when we have breaks, I mean, a lot of times our talk 00:17:27.179 --> 00:17:31.100 Is pretty adjacent to Illuman and spiritual stuff. 00:17:31.100 --> 00:17:36.299 And I know with my wife, who's my closest friend, we both 00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:42.580 have a deep background in Al-Anon and the 12-step program. 00:17:42.580 --> 00:17:47.460 And I look at my Illuman stuff similar to Al-Anon is that, you know, now I'm kind of in a 00:17:47.560 --> 00:17:48.280 Service stage. 00:17:48.280 --> 00:17:52.120 I mean, yes, I'm still working on myself, but I feel like I'm in a good place. 00:17:52.120 --> 00:17:58.840 But we often talk about, you know, how you can serve others or be a blessing to others. 00:17:58.840 --> 00:17:59.880 And so. 00:18:00.220 --> 00:18:07.740 Yeah, and I frequently tell people I'm in this men's group and it's a spiritual group and, you know, trying to, especially with other men. 00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:10.860 And I've got it's not that I've been out like trying to 00:18:11.340 --> 00:18:18.059 Capture somebody, but I mean I've influenced a couple guys through casual conversations that were curious to come in, and now they're members of the group. 00:18:18.059 --> 00:18:19.660 That's great. 00:18:19.040 --> 00:18:28.720 After you participated in a men's rites of passage, has this had any influence or changed your understanding of masculinity, initiation, even the male purpose in life? 00:18:28.620 --> 00:18:30.140 Yeah, it has. 00:18:30.140 --> 00:18:37.500 And it's funny, even today, I struggle a little bit if somebody verbally asks me to describe what a man is. 00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:41.740 I mean, I can give the biological definition or on all this stuff, but 00:18:42.280 --> 00:18:47.320 You know, I it to me, it's still more on just what kind of human being you are. 00:18:47.320 --> 00:18:53.000 And I happen to be male and a man, but you know, it's like being of service. 00:18:52.820 --> 00:18:56.980 Being a good person and try to be a blessing to others. 00:18:56.980 --> 00:18:59.380 But I do think about it a lot. 00:18:59.380 --> 00:19:03.220 And the other realization it gave me is I see 00:19:04.500 --> 00:19:09.460 A lot of men that, in my opinion, could really use this program. 00:19:09.460 --> 00:19:14.020 They're either struggling in life, they're struggling with wounds. 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:24.120 you know, even my own kids and stepsons, I see some things from there, especially my stepsons growing up in an alcoholic family that 00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:26.980 You know, they're part of the young generation. 00:19:26.980 --> 00:19:30.420 We talk about there's a crisis in young men, and I see some of this stuff in them. 00:19:30.420 --> 00:19:32.420 So I talk about it. 00:19:32.420 --> 00:19:35.460 I'm pretty open about Illuman, but I don't try to 00:19:35.919 --> 00:19:37.919 be over the top with it and let them know. 00:19:37.919 --> 00:19:44.640 Maybe they're not in a phase of their life where they need it or think they need it now, but I've let them know it's available and if they're interested. 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:46.799 So I'm always talking about it. 00:19:46.620 --> 00:19:50.460 Yeah, I appreciate you bringing up younger men and maybe other generations. 00:19:50.460 --> 00:19:54.300 And you've certainly really jumped in with both feet, having done both the 00:19:54.660 --> 00:19:59.060 Men's rites of passage and the elder rites of passage, and then also serving at additional rites. 00:19:59.460 --> 00:20:02.740 That's a pathway I can appreciate and understand. 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:10.840 My question is, what are some of the reasons that you think men avoid these rites of passage or resist doing them? 00:20:10.900 --> 00:20:11.620 It's funny. 00:20:12.020 --> 00:20:17.700 I've been reading some Robert Bly lately, and he has categories he puts people in. 00:20:17.700 --> 00:20:20.820 But I think to answer your question 00:20:22.020 --> 00:20:31.300 I have mixed feelings about the term toxic masculinity, but I think it's some men that have these stereotypical views of what it means to be a man. 00:20:31.300 --> 00:20:34.100 And it's like some men that are averse to getting counseling. 00:20:34.100 --> 00:20:36.020 It may show weakness. 00:20:36.080 --> 00:20:47.440 or they're afraid to be vulnerable in front of other men and so, you know, or they there's oh, you're some touchy feely group that goes out and hugs trees and beats drums in the woods. 00:20:47.120 --> 00:20:49.600 And I think that's at the essence of it. 00:20:49.600 --> 00:20:51.680 I think it's just a negative stereotype. 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.440 But, you know, it's like I always talk about. 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:56.799 I make parallels between. 00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:59.120 I talk a lot about Al-Anon and Illuman. 00:20:59.120 --> 00:21:03.200 It also strikes me that a lot of the men that are already there 00:21:03.460 --> 00:21:07.540 they've already recognized something and they took that step to get there. 00:21:07.540 --> 00:21:09.300 You see that in 12 step programs. 00:21:09.300 --> 00:21:11.300 You see this here. 00:21:11.300 --> 00:21:18.020 So once again, it's not we're an organization by invitation. 00:21:18.220 --> 00:21:26.620 But it's kind of just being open enough for that if men are interested to just say, Yeah, come check us out 00:21:26.560 --> 00:21:27.760 There's no pressure. 00:21:27.760 --> 00:21:29.280 No one makes you do anything. 00:21:29.280 --> 00:21:35.040 And a lot of men, if they're to that point where they recognize they need something, then they'll make that leap. 00:21:35.040 --> 00:21:38.240 And maybe it's uncomfortable, but a lot of them stay. 00:21:38.019 --> 00:21:50.179 Now, as someone who's done both the men's rites of passage and the elder rites of passage, can I ask you to maybe compare and contrast those two events, especially for someone who's saying, I'm not sure, I'm maybe in my 00:21:50.380 --> 00:21:52.540 A second half of life or even third half of life. 00:21:52.540 --> 00:21:53.820 I'm not sure which rites. 00:21:53.820 --> 00:21:55.980 I haven't participated in one and I'd like to do one. 00:21:56.460 --> 00:22:00.220 I think there's similarities and differences as you know. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:07.600 You know, the Elders' Rites is a little more focused on the second half of life, and we just had the Elders' Weave, which is a co-educational event, and it's the 00:22:08.300 --> 00:22:09.420 only one we have. 00:22:09.420 --> 00:22:12.460 And no, we're not going to open up the rest of Illuman to women right now. 00:22:12.460 --> 00:22:20.220 So because some guys were adverse to that, but it was still very rich because it's not specifically on men, it's about that 00:22:20.820 --> 00:22:26.020 Second half of life, you have less days in front of you than you have behind you. 00:22:26.020 --> 00:22:33.940 It's facing death and diminishments of your body and mind, and how you're going to approach that. 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:35.400 But there's also similarities. 00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:42.360 I would encourage anybody, though, regardless of how old you are or what stage of life you're in, to go through either one. 00:22:42.360 --> 00:22:45.560 I mean, the EROP, the Elders' Rites, are aimed 00:22:45.919 --> 00:22:50.400 Roughly at people at sixty and older, but it's not a hard and fast rule. 00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:56.480 If you're in that age group and you've not been through either one, there's no rules about which one you go to. 00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:59.039 But I think the men's rites more focused on 00:22:59.620 --> 00:23:06.420 You know, it's a rites of passage where they specifically focus on some things about 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:13.880 Being men, identifying possibly some things that have wounded you, and drawing those out. 00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:17.880 And you also get this wonderful connection with all these other men. 00:23:17.460 --> 00:23:23.300 I mean, I have guys from all over the world that I still stay in touch with and see when I come to these events. 00:23:23.300 --> 00:23:25.380 That was a real rich part of it. 00:23:25.380 --> 00:23:30.260 But I also know other men that have been through just the elder rites and haven't been through a men's rites. 00:23:30.260 --> 00:23:30.500 And 00:23:30.940 --> 00:23:33.019 I think it served them equally well. 00:23:33.019 --> 00:23:37.740 So I would also encourage people that if you're considering it, contact somebody. 00:23:37.740 --> 00:23:41.260 Everybody I know is pretty open about it, and they'll talk about it. 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:46.240 But I I would encourage you to go through a rites, but to me, it doesn't matter which one you go through first. 00:23:46.800 --> 00:23:54.240 Yeah, and I would add that, you know, at my rites of passage, there was a couple of men in their twenties, but there was a man in my home group who was eighty nine years old at the time. 00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:54.480 And 00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:57.720 He seemed to get a whole lot out of that experience as well. 00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:05.160 So and let me ask you too, just in terms of the elder rites, my understanding, and I have not been to an elder rites of passage. 00:24:04.740 --> 00:24:14.420 but that as you get into those later stages of life, the spiritual journey for men and women seems to kind of merge a little bit back onto the same path in some respects. 00:24:14.420 --> 00:24:15.700 Is that true? 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:17.000 I think so. 00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:21.080 Richard Rohr writes a lot, talks in his book, Falling Upward. 00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:27.560 You build your personal container and at some point you have a fall or more than one fall. 00:24:27.560 --> 00:24:29.800 It could be a death, a divorce. 00:24:29.620 --> 00:24:34.020 A severe illness with a child, something like that, that kind of makes you it kind of shakes you. 00:24:34.020 --> 00:24:37.380 And then you start seeking this, why am I here? 00:24:37.380 --> 00:24:38.740 What's my meaning? 00:24:38.740 --> 00:24:42.100 I think naturally, as a lot of us get older 00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:43.559 It's amazing. 00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:49.480 When I was at the Elder Rites this year, you know, they talk about the five hard truths, and one of those is you're going to die. 00:24:49.480 --> 00:24:53.720 And some people were actually like almost surprised to hear that. 00:24:53.140 --> 00:24:57.460 You know, it's like they either denied it or hadn't really thought about it. 00:24:57.460 --> 00:25:03.780 Not that we focus on it, but I think as you get older and you realize 00:25:04.320 --> 00:25:08.960 you know, you do have this certain wisdom and experiences. 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:14.240 And, you know, a lot of us have been through either divorce, death, things like that. 00:25:14.320 --> 00:25:19.600 You know, I joke being in the military, I was around a lot of extreme workplace violence. 00:25:19.600 --> 00:25:22.560 So, you know, I dealt with that in my career. 00:25:22.560 --> 00:25:28.080 And so I think it brings a certain amount of wisdom and experience that you may not have 00:25:28.620 --> 00:25:31.660 In your twenties, thirties, forties, you know. 00:25:31.660 --> 00:25:39.820 So, yeah, it's different in that you come into an Elders' Rites with a little more life experience under your belt. 00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:41.880 But once again, they're both valuable to go through. 00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:44.840 Slightly different focus, but there's a lot of similarities too. 00:25:45.320 --> 00:25:49.640 You become really deeply involved in just a short amount of time in Illuman and 00:25:50.460 --> 00:25:55.180 I want to make it clear to our listeners, not everybody that is within Illuman even goes to rites of passage. 00:25:55.180 --> 00:25:58.860 Some men just participate in councils or local events. 00:25:58.360 --> 00:26:03.799 Or some people go to the men's rites of passage and never get involved in a more deep way in leadership or anything like that. 00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:06.039 But you have become deeply involved. 00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:08.440 And I always think of this as community work. 00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:12.120 The more I've gotten into it, it's community organizing, but it's also very much 00:26:12.260 --> 00:26:17.700 an intentional community, meaning that we set forth an intention to be in community and to create community. 00:26:17.700 --> 00:26:24.900 But it requires a real expansiveness, at least personally in me, to remain in community, to lean into community. 00:26:24.740 --> 00:26:26.740 And to face those challenges of community. 00:26:26.740 --> 00:26:32.340 I'd like to hear what your perspective is as you become more and more involved and done more things within Illuman 00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:34.480 Yeah, I agree with everything you said. 00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:45.840 But one thing I'm still guilty of as a quote typical male, sometimes I gotta I jump in and try to do everything to the maximum. 00:26:45.260 --> 00:26:49.580 I did that a little bit with Illuman, and I had to back out a little bit. 00:26:49.580 --> 00:26:52.140 I have what I describe as three buckets of life. 00:26:52.140 --> 00:26:58.539 I have my family, I have my religion, and I have my volunteer work, and I got to keep those in balance. 00:26:58.320 --> 00:27:04.960 That doesn't mean equal time, and I can tell when something's out of bounds because I get unsettled. 00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:07.120 I jumped in and I 00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:13.960 took a role as a convener, a co-convener for the East Coast Collaborative in Illuman. 00:27:13.960 --> 00:27:19.560 And there was a lot of things going on, but I probably should not have accepted it. 00:27:18.860 --> 00:27:23.740 Now, some of the brothers that I love dearly, they're hard to say no to when they ask you. 00:27:23.740 --> 00:27:26.539 But I got in over my head in that 00:27:27.120 --> 00:27:36.960 I quickly got out of balance with the rest of my life, and I made a decision to back out of that early in the year so they'd have time to get a replacement. 00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:40.960 And I wouldn't wait till the end of the year where it would have disrupted the organization more. 00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:41.200 But 00:27:41.540 --> 00:27:45.700 I had to learn to keep that balance. 00:27:45.700 --> 00:27:51.300 So, a good lesson I've learned is I love being in community, and there's some guys 00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:58.280 That have a passion for this, where this has become their whole life, and it serves them well, and they serve it well. 00:27:58.280 --> 00:28:01.400 But this isn't the only thing I do in my life. 00:28:01.400 --> 00:28:05.160 It took that lesson for me to re-achieve that balance. 00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:06.120 So, uh, 00:28:06.040 --> 00:28:07.720 Yeah, I love being in community. 00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:11.800 I get a little out of sorts if I miss, like, I've traveled a lot this year. 00:28:11.800 --> 00:28:15.880 If I miss councils for a few weeks or something, I really miss it. 00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:18.280 I need to get back with the brothers. 00:28:18.019 --> 00:28:22.580 or even if it's just getting with a couple of them on a bicycle and things like that. 00:28:22.580 --> 00:28:26.260 And in our local council, we meet every other week. 00:28:26.260 --> 00:28:29.380 And on the weeks we don't meet in council, we meet for coffee. 00:28:29.380 --> 00:28:31.139