Brian Mueller: Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation.
Brian Mueller: My name is Brian Mueller.
Brian Mueller: I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen.
Brian Mueller: I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story.
Brian Mueller: This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterwards.
Brian Mueller: This podcast is truly a labor of love, inspired by my own transformative experience at the men's rites of passage and my ongoing commitment to the Illuman Community.
Brian Mueller: It's also informed by my work with Choosing Presence, where we believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence.
Brian Mueller: In a world of constant distraction
Brian Mueller: Choosing Presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now.
Brian Mueller: If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot
Brian Mueller: org slash app.
Brian Mueller: And if you'd like to support the show, I invite you to learn more about me and my work as a poet at BriansPoems dot
Brian Mueller: com.
Brian Mueller: Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second.
Brian Mueller: shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul.
Brian Mueller: On this show we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path.
Brian Mueller: Today I'm joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him.
Brian Mueller: My guest today is Jay Gallamore.
Brian Mueller: Brother, I'm really glad you're here.
Brian Mueller: Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, thanks.
Brian Mueller: Glad to be here.
Brian Mueller: Jay, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days.
Jay Gallamore: Well, I'm originally from Indiana, but I traveled all over in my career, so I retired and I currently my feet touch the ground in Southern Maryland.
Jay Gallamore: Down in a small town called Lusby, near Solomon's Island, about an hour south of
Jay Gallamore: D.C.
Jay Gallamore: And I'm full-time retired from my career, but
Jay Gallamore: I stay involved in some volunteer work.
Jay Gallamore: So, this in Al-Anon, and there's a group of my
Jay Gallamore: Illuman Brothers, we have a subgroup of our local council, but we do bicycling together and my wife and I, you know, are like best friends, so a lot of stuff with her.
Jay Gallamore: But yeah, I'm it's what I do as a retired guy.
Jay Gallamore: I'm I'm busy.
Brian Mueller: Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: The MROP is a unique experience.
Brian Mueller: It's not a retreat or a workshop.
Brian Mueller: It's an initiation.
Brian Mueller: Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name.
Brian Mueller: Before we dive into the wine the how, let's start at the very beginning.
Brian Mueller: Jay, when and where did you make your rites?
Jay Gallamore: So I did my first rites at Shrine Mont, my MROP, in I believe it was 2024.
Jay Gallamore: I had been in
Jay Gallamore: Illuman about a year at that point.
Brian Mueller: And do you recall who the Weaver was and about how many men were at your rites?
Jay Gallamore: Yeah, the Weaver was Ned Abenroth.
Jay Gallamore: I want to say there was probably fifty something men, if not more, at you know, initiates not returning folks.
Jay Gallamore: There was probably sixty or seventy total.
Jay Gallamore: It seems there was a lot of people there.
Brian Mueller: Now, I want to invite you to think back to that weekend and see if you can tell us what's the first image or the first feeling that came forth for you?
Jay Gallamore: I'll back up a little bit from that.
Jay Gallamore: When I first came into Illuman, I was invited by a friend of mine.
Jay Gallamore: I was brand new in 2023, I believe it was.
Jay Gallamore: And
Jay Gallamore: I had only been to a few local councils and I heard about this gathering they had called Awaken.
Jay Gallamore: And I said, Hey, you know, is there a s you know, do you have to go through a set?
Jay Gallamore: Process and they're like, No.
Jay Gallamore: So I went to Awaken as a brand new guy.
Jay Gallamore: And you know that because you and I were roommates.
Jay Gallamore: I was very much out of my comfort zone just because there was a lot of stuff with the rituals that I wasn't used to: the drumming, the dancing, some of that.
Jay Gallamore: So
Jay Gallamore: I eventually, you know, I quickly thought about it, got over it, and by the end of it, really embraced it.
Jay Gallamore: So, here a year later, I kind of assumed there would be similar things.
Jay Gallamore: So, I wasn't nervous, but I remember when I showed up
Jay Gallamore: to the MROP.
Jay Gallamore: I pulled in.
Jay Gallamore: If you've been to Shrine Mont, they have the big building, but there's a parking lot.
Jay Gallamore: They kind of direct you back there.
Jay Gallamore: They took my luggage and I was like, well, this is interesting.
Jay Gallamore: And I parked, I came back, and I remember they kind of said, okay, they led you to the registration table, but they wanted you to be quiet.
Jay Gallamore: You get your ID and lanyard, then you start on a path.
Jay Gallamore: And it was just curious.
Jay Gallamore: I didn't, you know, I was trying to keep a totally open mind, but I just remember walking on the path.
Jay Gallamore: And everything at Shrine Mont's uphill.
Jay Gallamore: But I remember I was hiking up through the woods, and there's like, oh, there's a body, you know, and
Jay Gallamore: and you come up to different guys and they're doing different things like blessing you, saging you and stuff.
Jay Gallamore: But it it was a real nice transition from the everyday world, the outside world into kind of
Jay Gallamore: Silence and starting to get into the sacred space in the container.
Jay Gallamore: It was just a nice transition
Brian Mueller: Could you tell us a story from that weekend?
Brian Mueller: Maybe you had an encounter with another man, or there was some event or some ritual that was especially poignant for you?
Brian Mueller: Is there something that you won't mind sharing?
Jay Gallamore: Yes, I think well, like I said, I tried to keep as as they say beginner's mind.
Jay Gallamore: I really was open to all of this.
Jay Gallamore: But I'll tell you the one event that
Jay Gallamore: Immediately comes to mind was they called it the mirror gauntlet at the time.
Jay Gallamore: And I had a really good upbringing.
Jay Gallamore: My parents were together their whole lives.
Jay Gallamore: I don't have any father wounds that I'm aware of.
Jay Gallamore: I just had a really good upbringing.
Jay Gallamore: And so the mirror gauntlet was.
Jay Gallamore: It was very emotional for me.
Jay Gallamore: I had this realization that, wow, there are other men out here that have some childhood wounds that I.
Jay Gallamore: I never went through.
Jay Gallamore: And so it was shocking on one hand.
Jay Gallamore: It made me appreciative of my upbringing.
Jay Gallamore: Not that I didn't have some wounds later in life from other things, but
Jay Gallamore: it kind of shook me to my core to see some of these other men, both their openness to be vulnerable, what they were carrying and some of the things that they were there to address.
Jay Gallamore: That was an eye-opener for me.
Brian Mueller: Now you mentioned attending Awaken in 2023, I believe at the invitation of a friend.
Brian Mueller: That certainly set you on a pathway, perhaps.
Brian Mueller: What are the circumstances in your life that led you to the rites?
Brian Mueller: What was happening at that time that said, yeah, for you, I need to register for this?
Jay Gallamore: Ten, eleven years earlier, my life was kind of unraveling
Jay Gallamore: My previous marriage, I it it was lasted a total of twenty nine years.
Jay Gallamore: My mother-in-law was at the end of her life and and my wife was was starting to
Jay Gallamore: circle back into addiction and alcoholism, and she was spending a lot of time trying to take care of her mom.
Jay Gallamore: I was coming to the end of my kind of second career
Jay Gallamore: And I didn't realize it at the time, but PTSD was jumping up and I went into a depression.
Jay Gallamore: You know, my wife and I split up and just all kinds of stuff on both of our lives unraveled.
Jay Gallamore: And I've always believed in God, but I count that as my beginning of my spiritual journey.
Jay Gallamore: So a year later, I got medical help and counseling and I started to recover.
Jay Gallamore: But when I came out of
Jay Gallamore: Started coming out of that period, that's when I kind of began my spiritual journey.
Jay Gallamore: I had converted to Catholicism, so you know, kept going to Al-Anon.
Jay Gallamore: Church was a big part of my life.
Jay Gallamore: And in there, I ended up getting divorced from my wife.
Jay Gallamore: And then subsequently, she passed away from her addiction.
Jay Gallamore: And I remarried eventually years later.
Jay Gallamore: So now, ten years after all that stuff, I always describe it as I was on this big wide road, which was my spiritual journey.
Jay Gallamore: And I was in a big old truck with pretty loose steering, so I'm doing a lot of weaving on this wide road.
Jay Gallamore: And when a friend of mine invited me to Illuman
Jay Gallamore: It just a lot of stuff seemed to click.
Jay Gallamore: I was familiar with Richard Rohr and some of his readings, especially Breathing Underwater.
Jay Gallamore: From his approach to the twelve steps, but I didn't know about this other stuff.
Jay Gallamore: So I always describe this as that was the point the road got narrower and the steering tightened up
Jay Gallamore: So I always count that at about 2023 when I started coming, that it just seemed like Illuman offered a lot of things that narrowed the path on my spiritual journey.
Jay Gallamore: So I hope that answers your question.
Brian Mueller: No, I really like how you described it there.
Brian Mueller: Now you made the decision to register for the rites.
Brian Mueller: Presumably, you told some of your friends, your family members, your wife, somebody, people in your community.
Brian Mueller: What was their reaction?
Jay Gallamore: Yeah, for those that know him, I'm in the local council with John Ball.
Jay Gallamore: He was one of the founders.
Jay Gallamore: And so we have a pretty active, fairly large local council that we meet in person regularly.
Jay Gallamore: But so John and all my council brothers were very supportive.
Jay Gallamore: My wife, you know, trying to protect the anonymity of the councils, but yet tell her what's going on.
Jay Gallamore: And she she was supportive.
Jay Gallamore: She, you know, she likes
Jay Gallamore: She she likes what it does to me.
Jay Gallamore: So she was supportive.
Jay Gallamore: So, yeah, I had a lot of support.
Jay Gallamore: And then when I went back, of course, everybody wants to know how it was.
Jay Gallamore: You know, you talk about it in council and was able to describe some things to my wife.
Jay Gallamore: But I had a lot of support.
Jay Gallamore: I didn't have anybody.
Jay Gallamore: I don't know.
Jay Gallamore: It seems like everybody was familiar that I was in a Illuman.
Jay Gallamore: I had
Jay Gallamore: I had, you know, like my brother and some other friends that doesn't know about, you know, you kind of have to explain, but I'm just I'm in this men's group, etc.
Jay Gallamore: But yeah, it was good.
Jay Gallamore: I had a lot of support.
Brian Mueller: Oh, it's great to hear.
Brian Mueller: Now, you made your rites at Shrine Mont in Orkney Springs, and I know that location because we've done the Awaken our annual gathering there twice.
Brian Mueller: And like you said, everything is uphill there.
Brian Mueller: It's on the side of a mountain.
Brian Mueller: It's so beautiful in Virginia.
Brian Mueller: But as you kind of rolled into the rites the day that you came, what was on your mind?
Brian Mueller: What was on your heart?
Brian Mueller: Was there something that you hoped to be initiated into?
Jay Gallamore: You know, no, I didn't have a specific thing.
Jay Gallamore: I was aware that I had a couple things that were still lingering from some PTSD and from my divorce and subsequent death of my former spouse.
Jay Gallamore: What really surprised me was, and I would encourage anybody that's going or considering to do as I did, which is show up with a very open mind, was
Jay Gallamore: I didn't appreciate till I was there how effective the rituals are.
Jay Gallamore: And I tell people, they're not a bunch of stuff that somebody just threw together and said, oh, let's hassle these guys.
Jay Gallamore: There's a lot of thought, as you know, and Ned did his graduate work on this.
Jay Gallamore: But it surprised me how the rituals would just evoke emotions.
Jay Gallamore: And sometimes, you know, I I've asked a couple of times, you know, what is the human capacity for tears and snot?
Jay Gallamore: Because you find
Jay Gallamore: You know, you get these things that come out, you cry, and you're in a good, safe place.
Jay Gallamore: But it's surprising sometimes what pops out and what comes to the surface within you.
Jay Gallamore: And I think I speak for almost anybody that's been through that.
Jay Gallamore: you know, from talking to him and everything.
Jay Gallamore: So, yeah, it just really draws things out.
Jay Gallamore: So I didn't have a specific thing, but it but I was a little surprised by some of the things that did end up boiling to the surface.
Brian Mueller: Were you carrying any fear with you as you headed into the rites?
Jay Gallamore: No, like I said, when I went to Awaken the previous year
Jay Gallamore: I was really out of my comfort zone, and I think I rode with another brother.
Jay Gallamore: I think if I had driven myself, I possibly would have left.
Jay Gallamore: And I had to sit there and think about, and you and I may have even talked about this, but I was like, why was I upset?
Jay Gallamore: You know, no one did anything to me, no one was forcing me to do anything.
Jay Gallamore: But I was just out of sorts.
Jay Gallamore: I wasn't used to the ritual.
Jay Gallamore: I think some of it was the dancing and the drumming.
Jay Gallamore: But on the other side, I came to this realization, and I still describe it today, that every single person I met
Jay Gallamore: Was the most genuine men I've ever been around.
Jay Gallamore: So, no, I I didn't really have any fear.
Jay Gallamore: I think I got over my being uncomfortable at Awaken.
Jay Gallamore: And once again, I just came into the MROP with an open mind and
Jay Gallamore: I had a really good experience as far as, you know, I didn't have anything I feared about it.
Jay Gallamore: I'm a retired military guy, so I've been through
Jay Gallamore: Initiations and hazing.
Jay Gallamore: And so, you know, if you're not going to hit me here or something like that, I'm fine
Brian Mueller: But the rites still are a significant commitment in terms of it's parts of five days, it's four nights.
Brian Mueller: Once you kind of enter into the process, you really go and it you're going into that process with other men and you're asked to show up for your council or home group.
Brian Mueller: You get through that experience.
Brian Mueller: Presumably, you do a lot of internal work.
Brian Mueller: You bond with other men.
Brian Mueller: But then the closing ritual comes and it's time for you to leave and head home.
Brian Mueller: How did you feel immediately as you drove away from Shrine Mont?
Jay Gallamore: You know, and it's been with the other things I've been involved with.
Jay Gallamore: My subsequent I went through the elders' rites, and then this year I helped with the elders' weave as a returning man.
Jay Gallamore: And even as a
Jay Gallamore: Even as coming back and supporting, I was physically and mentally exhausted.
Jay Gallamore: And like I said, I rode with another brother.
Jay Gallamore: He's an introvert.
Jay Gallamore: I am not.
Jay Gallamore: There was a lot of silence on the way home.
Jay Gallamore: He he was a returning man at that, but I had journaled
Jay Gallamore: But you never find enough time there to do all the journaling 'cause it seems like when it's time to go to bed, you need to go to bed.
Jay Gallamore: You're tired.
Jay Gallamore: But I think in the subsequent days, I did a lot of journaling of thoughts.
Jay Gallamore: And even here we are in 2026, I still go back and look at that journal and think about things, and I've made some minor adjustments.
Jay Gallamore: in my life and in my spiritual practices as I do after everything.
Jay Gallamore: So, yeah, leave it.
Jay Gallamore: I was this tired, but I was quiet and I was very contemplative.
Brian Mueller: Now, what has changed in your life since you made your first rites of passage?
Brian Mueller: I'm thinking practically, relationally, even spiritually.
Jay Gallamore: Right before as I was coming out of that dark time of my life
Jay Gallamore: I made a decision at the end of my career, I was in a pretty technical field, and we did a lot of stuff by you know, we had to do a lot of risk management.
Jay Gallamore: So I used to joke that
Jay Gallamore: I think I'm a Three on the Enneagram and I'm an ESTJ in the Myers Briggs.
Jay Gallamore: So my joke is that it used to be if I took a nap on Saturday, I probably scheduled it and planned it on Thursday before.
Jay Gallamore: And I made a conscious decision to, at that point in my life, as I was transitioning, to do more things from my heart and not my head.
Jay Gallamore: Don't analyze the living crap out of everything I did.
Jay Gallamore: And that has served me really well.
Jay Gallamore: And then, more specifically, I made a lot of changes after the MRO.
Jay Gallamore: I I had a prayer practice, but I didn't really have a meditation practice.
Jay Gallamore: So I started working on I have I do it in the morning.
Jay Gallamore: I get up really early and
Jay Gallamore: I started incorporating meditation with my prayer life and then incorporating presence throughout the day.
Jay Gallamore: And I have some specific rituals.
Jay Gallamore: You know, I have my own singing bowl and
Jay Gallamore: candles in silence, so it's just the short answer is I developed some rituals and after each
Jay Gallamore: about every year, I kind of revisit those and make minor adjustments as I feel I want to.
Brian Mueller: Now I've realized from my own experience and involvement that the men's rites of passage really changed
Brian Mueller: both the conversations I would have with other men and other people and also my relationships.
Brian Mueller: So I want to ask you, is that true from your experience as well?
Brian Mueller: And if so, how?
Jay Gallamore: So how did it change my relationships with men and other people?
Brian Mueller: Is that as well as your conversations, perhaps?
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Jay Gallamore: I have found in my religious life, I don't want to be one of these folks when someone sees me coming and going, Oh God, here comes Jay, and he's going to beat me over the head with religion.
Jay Gallamore: So
Jay Gallamore: I sometimes sneak it in.
Jay Gallamore: You know, I'm not ashamed to tell people, you know, I'm a Catholic and that I believe in God.
Jay Gallamore: But
Jay Gallamore: I think it's more important that I try to do things as how I live my life and not verbally preach so much.
Jay Gallamore: You know, obviously with my Illuman brothers, and I said we have a subset of us that ride bicycles together and everything.
Jay Gallamore: I mean, even when we're out in the woods mountain biking or on the trails, when we have breaks, I mean, a lot of times our talk
Jay Gallamore: Is pretty adjacent to Illuman and spiritual stuff.
Jay Gallamore: And I know with my wife, who's my closest friend, we both
Jay Gallamore: have a deep background in Al-Anon and the 12-step program.
Jay Gallamore: And I look at my Illuman stuff similar to Al-Anon is that, you know, now I'm kind of in a
Jay Gallamore: Service stage.
Jay Gallamore: I mean, yes, I'm still working on myself, but I feel like I'm in a good place.
Jay Gallamore: But we often talk about, you know, how you can serve others or be a blessing to others.
Jay Gallamore: And so.
Jay Gallamore: Yeah, and I frequently tell people I'm in this men's group and it's a spiritual group and, you know, trying to, especially with other men.
Jay Gallamore: And I've got it's not that I've been out like trying to
Jay Gallamore: Capture somebody, but I mean I've influenced a couple guys through casual conversations that were curious to come in, and now they're members of the group.
Brian Mueller: That's great.
Brian Mueller: After you participated in a men's rites of passage, has this had any influence or changed your understanding of masculinity, initiation, even the male purpose in life?
Jay Gallamore: Yeah, it has.
Jay Gallamore: And it's funny, even today, I struggle a little bit if somebody verbally asks me to describe what a man is.
Jay Gallamore: I mean, I can give the biological definition or on all this stuff, but
Jay Gallamore: You know, I it to me, it's still more on just what kind of human being you are.
Jay Gallamore: And I happen to be male and a man, but you know, it's like being of service.
Jay Gallamore: Being a good person and try to be a blessing to others.
Jay Gallamore: But I do think about it a lot.
Jay Gallamore: And the other realization it gave me is I see
Jay Gallamore: A lot of men that, in my opinion, could really use this program.
Jay Gallamore: They're either struggling in life, they're struggling with wounds.
Jay Gallamore: you know, even my own kids and stepsons, I see some things from there, especially my stepsons growing up in an alcoholic family that
Jay Gallamore: You know, they're part of the young generation.
Jay Gallamore: We talk about there's a crisis in young men, and I see some of this stuff in them.
Jay Gallamore: So I talk about it.
Jay Gallamore: I'm pretty open about Illuman, but I don't try to
Jay Gallamore: be over the top with it and let them know.
Jay Gallamore: Maybe they're not in a phase of their life where they need it or think they need it now, but I've let them know it's available and if they're interested.
Jay Gallamore: So I'm always talking about it.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, I appreciate you bringing up younger men and maybe other generations.
Brian Mueller: And you've certainly really jumped in with both feet, having done both the
Brian Mueller: Men's rites of passage and the elder rites of passage, and then also serving at additional rites.
Brian Mueller: That's a pathway I can appreciate and understand.
Brian Mueller: My question is, what are some of the reasons that you think men avoid these rites of passage or resist doing them?
Jay Gallamore: It's funny.
Jay Gallamore: I've been reading some Robert Bly lately, and he has categories he puts people in.
Jay Gallamore: But I think to answer your question
Jay Gallamore: I have mixed feelings about the term toxic masculinity, but I think it's some men that have these stereotypical views of what it means to be a man.
Jay Gallamore: And it's like some men that are averse to getting counseling.
Jay Gallamore: It may show weakness.
Jay Gallamore: or they're afraid to be vulnerable in front of other men and so, you know, or they there's oh, you're some touchy feely group that goes out and hugs trees and beats drums in the woods.
Jay Gallamore: And I think that's at the essence of it.
Jay Gallamore: I think it's just a negative stereotype.
Jay Gallamore: But, you know, it's like I always talk about.
Jay Gallamore: I make parallels between.
Jay Gallamore: I talk a lot about Al-Anon and Illuman.
Jay Gallamore: It also strikes me that a lot of the men that are already there
Jay Gallamore: they've already recognized something and they took that step to get there.
Jay Gallamore: You see that in 12 step programs.
Jay Gallamore: You see this here.
Jay Gallamore: So once again, it's not we're an organization by invitation.
Jay Gallamore: But it's kind of just being open enough for that if men are interested to just say, Yeah, come check us out
Jay Gallamore: There's no pressure.
Jay Gallamore: No one makes you do anything.
Jay Gallamore: And a lot of men, if they're to that point where they recognize they need something, then they'll make that leap.
Jay Gallamore: And maybe it's uncomfortable, but a lot of them stay.
Brian Mueller: Now, as someone who's done both the men's rites of passage and the elder rites of passage, can I ask you to maybe compare and contrast those two events, especially for someone who's saying, I'm not sure, I'm maybe in my
Brian Mueller: A second half of life or even third half of life.
Brian Mueller: I'm not sure which rites.
Brian Mueller: I haven't participated in one and I'd like to do one.
Jay Gallamore: I think there's similarities and differences as you know.
Jay Gallamore: You know, the Elders' Rites is a little more focused on the second half of life, and we just had the Elders' Weave, which is a co-educational event, and it's the
Jay Gallamore: only one we have.
Jay Gallamore: And no, we're not going to open up the rest of Illuman to women right now.
Jay Gallamore: So because some guys were adverse to that, but it was still very rich because it's not specifically on men, it's about that
Jay Gallamore: Second half of life, you have less days in front of you than you have behind you.
Jay Gallamore: It's facing death and diminishments of your body and mind, and how you're going to approach that.
Jay Gallamore: But there's also similarities.
Jay Gallamore: I would encourage anybody, though, regardless of how old you are or what stage of life you're in, to go through either one.
Jay Gallamore: I mean, the EROP, the Elders' Rites, are aimed
Jay Gallamore: Roughly at people at sixty and older, but it's not a hard and fast rule.
Jay Gallamore: If you're in that age group and you've not been through either one, there's no rules about which one you go to.
Jay Gallamore: But I think the men's rites more focused on
Jay Gallamore: You know, it's a rites of passage where they specifically focus on some things about
Jay Gallamore: Being men, identifying possibly some things that have wounded you, and drawing those out.
Jay Gallamore: And you also get this wonderful connection with all these other men.
Jay Gallamore: I mean, I have guys from all over the world that I still stay in touch with and see when I come to these events.
Jay Gallamore: That was a real rich part of it.
Jay Gallamore: But I also know other men that have been through just the elder rites and haven't been through a men's rites.
Jay Gallamore: And
Jay Gallamore: I think it served them equally well.
Jay Gallamore: So I would also encourage people that if you're considering it, contact somebody.
Jay Gallamore: Everybody I know is pretty open about it, and they'll talk about it.
Brian Mueller: But I I would encourage you to go through a rites, but to me, it doesn't matter which one you go through first.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, and I would add that, you know, at my rites of passage, there was a couple of men in their twenties, but there was a man in my home group who was eighty nine years old at the time.
Brian Mueller: And
Brian Mueller: He seemed to get a whole lot out of that experience as well.
Brian Mueller: So and let me ask you too, just in terms of the elder rites, my understanding, and I have not been to an elder rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: but that as you get into those later stages of life, the spiritual journey for men and women seems to kind of merge a little bit back onto the same path in some respects.
Brian Mueller: Is that true?
Jay Gallamore: I think so.
Jay Gallamore: Richard Rohr writes a lot, talks in his book, Falling Upward.
Jay Gallamore: You build your personal container and at some point you have a fall or more than one fall.
Jay Gallamore: It could be a death, a divorce.
Jay Gallamore: A severe illness with a child, something like that, that kind of makes you it kind of shakes you.
Jay Gallamore: And then you start seeking this, why am I here?
Jay Gallamore: What's my meaning?
Jay Gallamore: I think naturally, as a lot of us get older
Jay Gallamore: It's amazing.
Jay Gallamore: When I was at the Elder Rites this year, you know, they talk about the five hard truths, and one of those is you're going to die.
Jay Gallamore: And some people were actually like almost surprised to hear that.
Jay Gallamore: You know, it's like they either denied it or hadn't really thought about it.
Jay Gallamore: Not that we focus on it, but I think as you get older and you realize
Jay Gallamore: you know, you do have this certain wisdom and experiences.
Jay Gallamore: And, you know, a lot of us have been through either divorce, death, things like that.
Jay Gallamore: You know, I joke being in the military, I was around a lot of extreme workplace violence.
Jay Gallamore: So, you know, I dealt with that in my career.
Jay Gallamore: And so I think it brings a certain amount of wisdom and experience that you may not have
Jay Gallamore: In your twenties, thirties, forties, you know.
Jay Gallamore: So, yeah, it's different in that you come into an Elders' Rites with a little more life experience under your belt.
Jay Gallamore: But once again, they're both valuable to go through.
Brian Mueller: Slightly different focus, but there's a lot of similarities too.
Brian Mueller: You become really deeply involved in just a short amount of time in Illuman and
Brian Mueller: I want to make it clear to our listeners, not everybody that is within Illuman even goes to rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: Some men just participate in councils or local events.
Brian Mueller: Or some people go to the men's rites of passage and never get involved in a more deep way in leadership or anything like that.
Brian Mueller: But you have become deeply involved.
Brian Mueller: And I always think of this as community work.
Brian Mueller: The more I've gotten into it, it's community organizing, but it's also very much
Brian Mueller: an intentional community, meaning that we set forth an intention to be in community and to create community.
Brian Mueller: But it requires a real expansiveness, at least personally in me, to remain in community, to lean into community.
Brian Mueller: And to face those challenges of community.
Brian Mueller: I'd like to hear what your perspective is as you become more and more involved and done more things within Illuman
Jay Gallamore: Yeah, I agree with everything you said.
Jay Gallamore: But one thing I'm still guilty of as a quote typical male, sometimes I gotta I jump in and try to do everything to the maximum.
Jay Gallamore: I did that a little bit with Illuman, and I had to back out a little bit.
Jay Gallamore: I have what I describe as three buckets of life.
Jay Gallamore: I have my family, I have my religion, and I have my volunteer work, and I got to keep those in balance.
Jay Gallamore: That doesn't mean equal time, and I can tell when something's out of bounds because I get unsettled.
Jay Gallamore: I jumped in and I
Jay Gallamore: took a role as a convener, a co-convener for the East Coast Collaborative in Illuman.
Jay Gallamore: And there was a lot of things going on, but I probably should not have accepted it.
Jay Gallamore: Now, some of the brothers that I love dearly, they're hard to say no to when they ask you.
Jay Gallamore: But I got in over my head in that
Jay Gallamore: I quickly got out of balance with the rest of my life, and I made a decision to back out of that early in the year so they'd have time to get a replacement.
Jay Gallamore: And I wouldn't wait till the end of the year where it would have disrupted the organization more.
Jay Gallamore: But
Jay Gallamore: I had to learn to keep that balance.
Jay Gallamore: So, a good lesson I've learned is I love being in community, and there's some guys
Jay Gallamore: That have a passion for this, where this has become their whole life, and it serves them well, and they serve it well.
Jay Gallamore: But this isn't the only thing I do in my life.
Jay Gallamore: It took that lesson for me to re-achieve that balance.
Jay Gallamore: So, uh,
Jay Gallamore: Yeah, I love being in community.
Jay Gallamore: I get a little out of sorts if I miss, like, I've traveled a lot this year.
Jay Gallamore: If I miss councils for a few weeks or something, I really miss it.
Jay Gallamore: I need to get back with the brothers.
Jay Gallamore: or even if it's just getting with a couple of them on a bicycle and things like that.
Jay Gallamore: And in our local council, we meet every other week.
Jay Gallamore: And on the weeks we don't meet in council, we meet for coffee.
Jay Gallamore: So there's always every week
Jay Gallamore: there's a meeting of the guys you know you can tap into.
Jay Gallamore: So I cherish those moments and I cherish that time being around them.
Jay Gallamore: But but at a
Jay Gallamore: macro level, I had to I had to balance my involvement.
Jay Gallamore: I got a I got a little bit ahead of myself there.
Brian Mueller: I want to ask, obviously, about your experience as a naval pilot and
Brian Mueller: And being in the military, and as you know, there are men in Illuman that are veterans.
Brian Mueller: I don't know what number or what proportion that is of the mem men in the community, but
Brian Mueller: I think it's important to recognize that some men come from that background.
Brian Mueller: And I just want to know if you have anything you can say about being a member of the military and then being part of Illuman and how those two things are compatible or sympatico.
Jay Gallamore: You know, I've had some talks with some folks, and as you know, there's a couple of things coming up.
Jay Gallamore: There's an event, I think, it's scheduled in December in Richmond, Virginia, that's going to be on
Jay Gallamore: a radical belonging, and it's probably going to be a little out of some folks' comfort zones.
Jay Gallamore: And I've had some conversations with folks surrounded with that
Jay Gallamore: And last year, a couple of the more national level folks were asking about military guys, first responders and stuff.
Jay Gallamore: And a lot of us have
Jay Gallamore: You know, a lot of that warrior energy.
Jay Gallamore: And that's not always, I think it's positive when it's balanced.
Jay Gallamore: But there's other guys that have totally different backgrounds.
Jay Gallamore: that some of that can be off putting.
Jay Gallamore: In fact, I think at Awakened this last year, this you know, that was the kind of the key subject.
Jay Gallamore: And there was a lot of guys that I understand were really, even though I thought it was handled well, were
Jay Gallamore: Put off by that.
Jay Gallamore: So I think, and I've said this, and I've communicated this to national leadership.
Jay Gallamore: I see some issues with the subject of radical belonging.
Jay Gallamore: To be perfectly frank, I think a lot of the demographic in Illuman leans left politically and
Jay Gallamore: it's off-putting sometimes to other folks to the point where they're like, I don't even want to be around this.
Jay Gallamore: I don't want to be included.
Jay Gallamore: And so it's almost like
Jay Gallamore: Radical belonging if you think like we do.
Jay Gallamore: That message was identified this year at the national gathering.
Jay Gallamore: I don't know everything that's being done behind the scenes, but
Jay Gallamore: You know, we need to talk about these things.
Jay Gallamore: And I had a really positive experience at the Elders Weave with some of the national leaders, and we did talk about them.
Jay Gallamore: And I felt like there was a little crack made in that subject.
Jay Gallamore: I think, frankly, there's a lot that could be done to make Illuman more attractive to first responders, police officers, military
Jay Gallamore: things like that.
Jay Gallamore: So it's been a mixed bag.
Jay Gallamore: I'm pretty comfortable in my own skin, and I think I can handle it, but there's other folks that are frankly off-put by it.
Brian Mueller: I hope that answers the question.
Brian Mueller: No, I really appreciate your thoughts and your opinion and even your experience dealing with these topics and subjects.
Brian Mueller: I really only have one more question for you, Jay, and that is, what's next?
Brian Mueller: Where do you go from here on your spiritual journey?
Jay Gallamore: We've got on the East Coast Collaborative, we're scheduled to have a men's rites in September.
Jay Gallamore: I plan on returning to that as an initiated man and helping with the ritual team and anything else I can do.
Jay Gallamore: But I'll also
Jay Gallamore: You know, both at the Elders Weave last spring, and then at this, even though you come back, you've been through them, you have a program that you can go deeper.
Jay Gallamore: So I feel like I'm in a good place in my life.
Jay Gallamore: It's not like I have.
Jay Gallamore: I'm aware of a couple of things that still need to be addressed, but they're not negatively affecting my life so bad that I can't function.
Jay Gallamore: So I'm in a good place in my life
Jay Gallamore: I feel like I'm able to serve and bring some blessings to other men by continuing.
Jay Gallamore: And of course, this will always help me.
Jay Gallamore: But I'm in a really good place.
Jay Gallamore: So I want to continue, be open to what may happen.
Jay Gallamore: And yeah.
Jay Gallamore: But I'm in a good place.
Jay Gallamore: And I give I really, I really
Jay Gallamore: give a lot of credit, you know, just to Illuman, just the folks being there and the chances I've had to go through some of these things.
Brian Mueller: Jay, I want to thank you so much for your time and your vulnerability.
Brian Mueller: I want to say again, thank you for being my roommate at Awaken twenty-twenty three.
Brian Mueller: We had some good conversations.
Brian Mueller: I'm glad I didn't say anything to discourage your involvement with Illuman at that time.
Jay Gallamore: Oh, no, no, no.
Jay Gallamore: And no, brother, this is this is good, and I always enjoy seeing you.
Jay Gallamore: And
Jay Gallamore: Thanks for asking me to do this.
Brian Mueller: Oh, absolutely.
Brian Mueller: And I want to say I love you and I really urge you forward and thank you for your commitment to this working community.
Brian Mueller: All right, love you too, brother.
Brian Mueller: For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites.
Brian Mueller: The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six.
Brian Mueller: While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since twenty twelve a Illuman has been the steward of this work.
Brian Mueller: Preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world.
Brian Mueller: To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return by Richard Rohr.
Brian Mueller: If you are ready to make your rites, you can find details and registration information at Illuman dot
Brian Mueller: org.
Brian Mueller: Slash MROP or Illuman dot
Brian Mueller: org slash events.
Brian Mueller: Finally, if you enjoyed this podcast, don't forget to share it with a friend.
Brian Mueller: You can find all our episodes and subscribe in your favorite podcast app at mroptalk dot com, and you can visit me at BriansPoems dot com or BrianMueller dot com.
Brian Mueller: Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP.
Brian Mueller: Until next time, brothers, stay present.