WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:12.480 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:13.240 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:18.520 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:25.560 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:25.060 --> 00:00:33.860 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterward. 00:00:33.860 --> 00:00:35.940 Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. 00:00:35.940 --> 00:00:38.980 This podcast is brought to you by choosing Presence. 00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:42.700 We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:48.860 In a world of constant distraction, Choosing Presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:54.920 If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot 00:00:55.080 --> 00:00:56.840 org slash app. 00:00:56.740 --> 00:01:08.660 Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. 00:01:07.960 --> 00:01:12.840 On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:19.000 Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:01:25.600 --> 00:01:27.360 My guest today is Jared Adams. 00:01:27.360 --> 00:01:28.560 Brother, I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:31.840 Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:32.480 You bet. 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:34.000 Thanks for having me. 00:01:33.740 --> 00:01:36.700 Jared, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:01:37.020 --> 00:01:39.980 I grew up in Dodd City, Kansas. 00:01:39.980 --> 00:01:42.780 I've gotten the hell out twice. 00:01:42.140 --> 00:01:44.060 The high planes pulled me back. 00:01:44.060 --> 00:01:45.660 I got out again. 00:01:45.660 --> 00:01:46.780 Literally, no kidding. 00:01:46.780 --> 00:01:51.500 The shoot'em up, gun smoke, gunfight, Dodge City, Kansas. 00:01:51.240 --> 00:01:55.400 I worked there at Boot Hill in the summer doing gunfights. 00:01:55.400 --> 00:01:57.160 So, uh, man, I've lived it. 00:01:57.160 --> 00:01:59.320 Uh and in the last about twenty 00:01:59.920 --> 00:02:03.680 Seven, twenty-eight years I've lived near Grand Rapids, Michigan. 00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:04.479 Yeah, what do you do? 00:02:04.479 --> 00:02:05.920 How do you spend your time? 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:06.640 Yeah, my 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:11.440 My day gig is similar to you. 00:02:11.440 --> 00:02:21.360 Kind of the I live in the fluid career of webmaster, video editing, audio editing, graphic design. 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:22.840 branding, marketing. 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:27.240 You can't hardly wear one hat anymore in the freelance world like that. 00:02:27.240 --> 00:02:31.480 So it's led to a lot of adventures and a lot of learning curves. 00:02:31.480 --> 00:02:35.160 So I do a lot of that for Lumen as well, which has been a great 00:02:35.799 --> 00:02:41.879 Way to stay connected and keep giving back to an organization that's given me so much. 00:02:41.879 --> 00:02:48.920 And then the the evening gig, the Moonlight gig, has been a touring professional singer-songwriter for 00:02:49.420 --> 00:02:54.380 Gosh, I think I started in 96, 97. 00:02:54.380 --> 00:02:56.620 So that's pretty fluid as well. 00:02:56.620 --> 00:02:58.700 So I managed to pick two. 00:02:58.640 --> 00:03:06.079 Two career choices that are always evolving and changing, and absolutely no stability. 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:08.959 Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. 00:03:08.959 --> 00:03:10.640 The MROP has a unique experience. 00:03:10.640 --> 00:03:13.439 It's not a retreat or a workshop, it's an initiation. 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:18.159 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. 00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:21.360 Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. 00:03:21.500 --> 00:03:23.820 When and where did you make your rites, Jared? 00:03:23.820 --> 00:03:28.140 My rites were in twenty twelve at Pilgrim Park. 00:03:28.140 --> 00:03:28.540 Yeah. 00:03:28.540 --> 00:03:30.780 And who was the weaver and about how many men were there? 00:03:31.180 --> 00:03:35.500 We had the esteemed Belden Lane was our weaver. 00:03:35.340 --> 00:03:38.460 Stephen Gambill was the ritual elder. 00:03:38.460 --> 00:03:43.420 I think we had gosh, ma between thirty and forty. 00:03:43.420 --> 00:03:45.820 I feel like 'cause it felt like a lot to me. 00:03:45.820 --> 00:03:51.980 But then as I got to know some guys that say, No, we used to have two hundred people at these, it really changed my perspective. 00:03:51.980 --> 00:03:53.100 But the thirty felt 00:03:53.680 --> 00:04:01.519 Great to me because I got to know everyone's faces, and you don't have a lot of time for extended conversations. 00:04:01.519 --> 00:04:05.599 You're not really there to sit around the fire every night and get to know each other. 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:07.280 You're doing the work. 00:04:06.920 --> 00:04:13.080 But it felt like I knew a little bit about each brother, and we were all kind of in it together. 00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:15.240 So I felt that encouragement. 00:04:14.940 --> 00:04:19.500 And there wasn't this a huge chunk of guys that I didn't recognize or know. 00:04:19.500 --> 00:04:21.500 I can't imagine if you had 200 people. 00:04:21.900 --> 00:04:29.100 So when you think back to the weekend of your rites, what's the first feeling or image that comes forth for you? 00:04:28.740 --> 00:04:30.740 Yeah, these are fun questions. 00:04:30.740 --> 00:04:35.780 I've tried to ponder some of these before our chat here, just to go back. 00:04:35.780 --> 00:04:41.300 It feels so good to replace some of those locations and places in your mind. 00:04:41.100 --> 00:04:52.540 Yeah, I remember pulling in and parking, really just knowing I had, as Tom Pawlak, a dear brother here in Michigan, would say, I just had a yes in my heart. 00:04:52.540 --> 00:04:55.100 I had no idea what was in store. 00:04:54.940 --> 00:04:59.100 I just knew something was calling me to these rites. 00:04:59.100 --> 00:05:00.620 Maybe I was an exception. 00:05:00.620 --> 00:05:08.460 I didn't have there's a long on-ramp of reading Richard Rohr for ten years and attending a lot of other retreats. 00:05:08.220 --> 00:05:16.860 My only reference really was kind of the intellectual conference type retreats that I had done a little bit as I'd gotten older. 00:05:16.860 --> 00:05:20.699 It was always the weekend built around a single theme. 00:05:20.520 --> 00:05:25.720 The goal was to take as many notes as you could and go to all your breakout sessions. 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:31.720 That was kind of oversimplifying, but that largely was my reference for a retreat. 00:05:31.020 --> 00:05:34.220 Before I got involved with Illumina and did my rites. 00:05:34.220 --> 00:05:36.220 So ask the question one more time. 00:05:36.220 --> 00:05:40.700 Yeah, you know, what was the image or feeling that first came forth for you as you arrived at the rites? 00:05:40.700 --> 00:05:41.980 Yeah, the feeling that came forth 00:05:42.900 --> 00:05:50.020 There was a little anxiety, but it was a really welcomed type of anxiety, if that makes sense. 00:05:50.020 --> 00:05:54.900 I could tell I was stepping outside of what I was used to, but something 00:05:55.620 --> 00:05:59.780 At that age, let's see, I can't even do the math that fast, how old I was. 00:05:59.780 --> 00:06:03.620 You know, early thirties, something felt really great about 00:06:04.300 --> 00:06:07.340 Having no idea what lay ahead. 00:06:07.660 --> 00:06:10.300 I didn't have an agenda in my handy little packet. 00:06:10.300 --> 00:06:11.820 There weren't brochures. 00:06:11.820 --> 00:06:14.139 I was really intrigued. 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:23.520 seeing the team and seeing the location and how much energy people had put into essentially exploring a lot of the unknown together. 00:06:23.520 --> 00:06:24.880 But that struck me that 00:06:25.320 --> 00:06:32.840 This didn't feel like the highly organized, super-rigid conferences and retreats that I'd gone to. 00:06:32.840 --> 00:06:35.880 It was kind of like nothing I had experienced. 00:06:35.820 --> 00:06:42.540 But I felt drawn to that deeper than any kind of Hilton weekend retreat 00:06:43.460 --> 00:06:51.780 You know, where you get your room and you choose your breakouts and everything was structured, where your enjoyment of the event was felt more so. 00:06:51.780 --> 00:06:54.180 How could you stick to the schedule? 00:06:53.840 --> 00:06:55.600 And really get the most out of it. 00:06:55.600 --> 00:07:07.360 I had no idea what the schedule was, and that really flew in the face of everything I knew about getting together with a group and exploring a topic or a theme. 00:07:07.500 --> 00:07:11.260 So I kind of felt like I probably was just a a pinball. 00:07:11.260 --> 00:07:13.100 I just kind of bounced around for a while. 00:07:13.100 --> 00:07:14.060 Do I need to be? 00:07:14.060 --> 00:07:16.780 Can you tell me how do I get? 00:07:16.780 --> 00:07:17.740 And I loved it. 00:07:17.740 --> 00:07:20.860 I've really, in some ways, I've never looked back. 00:07:20.900 --> 00:07:23.380 It brought me to such a beginner's mind. 00:07:23.380 --> 00:07:28.580 We throw that term around a lot, but in a lot of ways, that has stuck with me. 00:07:28.580 --> 00:07:33.060 The enjoyment and the beauty of walking into something where I don't need 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:40.840 The whole itinerary laid out before me to know that it's just going to be good for my soul if I approach it with that yes. 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:43.000 The Tom Pawlak yes. 00:07:43.020 --> 00:07:48.140 Given that this was kind of a unique experience for you, something that you weren't familiar with up to that point. 00:07:48.140 --> 00:07:50.620 And I mean, it sounds like you had a good time. 00:07:50.620 --> 00:07:54.860 But generally speaking, how would you characterize the weekend as a whole for you? 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:56.000 profound. 00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:03.680 Profound in the really primal but surgical ways that it unraveled me. 00:08:03.520 --> 00:08:09.680 It taught me a lot about paradox and appreciating and recognizing paradox. 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:14.400 So maybe even primal and surgical, even that might be a paradox. 00:08:13.900 --> 00:08:17.980 Just the rustic nature to it was really appealing. 00:08:17.980 --> 00:08:22.140 Like I said, you know, my background, I grew up reformed and then 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:28.760 As I started doing more music, I got kind of pulled into more evangelical circles. 00:08:28.760 --> 00:08:31.800 It feels like a whole other life now I've I have 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:38.519 certainly deconstructed from that now, but but like a good scrapbook, that's part of my past. 00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:42.680 But I was still kind of at the tail end of that at my rites. 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:47.280 So everything I was used to was about the comfort, the convenience. 00:08:47.280 --> 00:08:53.680 Mainly speakers and ideas that confirmed my own confirmation bias. 00:08:53.680 --> 00:08:54.800 I just loved the 00:08:55.880 --> 00:09:00.680 how much the natural element was a part of our day-to-day activity. 00:09:00.680 --> 00:09:02.200 And the silence. 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:06.040 I think I had been craving silence, but I didn't know how to 00:09:06.800 --> 00:09:17.440 Find it or how to seek that out without people kind of giving you the the side eye and thinking you're well, he's he's really struggling, he's spending a lot of alone time in silence. 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:19.520 My upbringing wasn't a thing that 00:09:19.839 --> 00:09:23.759 Certainly wasn't celebrated, but kind of had a stigma to it. 00:09:24.079 --> 00:09:28.480 You were clearly struggling if you were alone and silent. 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:32.399 And Belden, you know, being such a modern-day wizard 00:09:32.980 --> 00:09:41.140 As I know you asked about that moment, but I've realized post-MROP and the years after how much I learned. 00:09:40.940 --> 00:09:44.620 and was blessed by what he didn't say, if that makes sense. 00:09:44.620 --> 00:09:49.660 I just reread his book, The Soulless of Fierce Landscapes. 00:09:49.140 --> 00:09:50.900 Desert and Mountain Spirituality. 00:09:50.900 --> 00:09:57.540 I I don't know if you've read it, but he talks a lot about uh the notion of the ophthalmic. 00:09:57.420 --> 00:10:04.540 Kind of learning by what something isn't, knowing something by what it isn't. 00:10:04.540 --> 00:10:07.019 We could nerd out on that for quite a while, but 00:10:07.420 --> 00:10:10.540 He really lived into that as a weaver. 00:10:10.540 --> 00:10:16.699 He didn't over instruct, which, as an Enneagram 5, I tend to do myself, and I also. 00:10:17.220 --> 00:10:20.980 Can enjoy being on the receiving end of it. 00:10:20.980 --> 00:10:28.420 There was so much space for the magic of Pilgrim Park and the magic of the rites to do its work. 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:35.480 That Belden just loosely, like a shepherd, just kind of steered us a little bit to the left, a little bit to the right. 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:39.640 But he never said, Here's what you need to do now. 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:45.320 Try and have this experience as you go into the woods, think about these specific things. 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:46.920 There was none of that. 00:10:46.920 --> 00:10:52.200 He trusted that the magic of the rites would do its work. 00:10:52.020 --> 00:10:56.020 That's certainly something I've noticed more so after. 00:10:56.420 --> 00:11:04.180 But I remember someone said maybe it was Belden or Father Bob, at least encouraged me to not take notes. 00:11:03.520 --> 00:11:05.440 You got a notebook with you at the Wrights? 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:06.960 I think I did, yeah. 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:11.200 And had, you know, like our our lodging assignments or 00:11:12.180 --> 00:11:13.460 You know, the cabins. 00:11:13.460 --> 00:11:20.980 I think I maybe it started taking notes, and like one of the guys next to me or someone was like, I don't think we need to do that here. 00:11:20.740 --> 00:11:28.180 And that was so great because I was falling back into that muscle memory of, oh, I'm here for an intellectual weekend. 00:11:28.340 --> 00:11:33.220 I'm going to take notes, really get my money's worth, and I can reflect and reread these notes. 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:37.160 celebrate how good of a note-taker I was. 00:11:37.160 --> 00:11:44.680 And I I think someone said, you know, we're not here to take notes and report back to anyone. 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:49.760 That also really struck me and has been something I remembered that you mean we're we're just going to be here? 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:53.600 How are we going to validate this experience? 00:11:53.600 --> 00:12:00.000 If I don't meticulously take notes and Instagram selfies, there was none of that. 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:02.480 But I think that's helped. 00:12:02.040 --> 00:12:08.600 Keep it such a fresh, vivid memory for me 'cause that's all I have, is my true authentic memories. 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:11.399 I don't have any notes. 00:12:11.640 --> 00:12:15.080 So I have some rocks that I grabbed from the river. 00:12:16.020 --> 00:12:22.260 Just a few items and you know, little trinkets I found in the woods during our different outings. 00:12:22.260 --> 00:12:26.260 I have those on a little bookshelf downstairs, and I can look at those and 00:12:26.820 --> 00:12:30.980 Most of the weekend will come back for me, or most of the week, I should say. 00:12:30.980 --> 00:12:36.100 So I hold a lot of memory and a few of these items that I brought back. 00:12:35.620 --> 00:12:36.339 That's wonderful. 00:12:36.339 --> 00:12:37.300 I mean, very descriptive. 00:12:37.300 --> 00:12:39.060 I really appreciate what you had to share so far. 00:12:39.060 --> 00:12:41.700 Let me see if I can't get you to narrow it down though, though. 00:12:41.700 --> 00:12:50.019 Is there a particular experience or was there a particular encounter with another man that was especially memorable to you that you don't mind recounting? 00:12:50.020 --> 00:12:50.820 Yeah. 00:12:50.820 --> 00:12:55.860 Well, the first one, a little comical, less on the spiritual side, but 00:12:57.740 --> 00:13:09.660 recognizing the beauty of friendship and brotherhood and Illuman, every time we would have our our time alone or our time to explore, you know, the the drum would always call us back. 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:10.400 to the next event. 00:13:10.400 --> 00:13:15.920 And Gary Meagher was the drum elder for my rites. 00:13:15.920 --> 00:13:22.000 And it never failed that I would think, you know, I better use the restroom before we go back to sacred space. 00:13:21.700 --> 00:13:30.899 I would just climb through the cobwebs and swat all the gnats and flies away and get to the stall, and I'll be damned if Gary wouldn't start beating that drum 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:37.800 Whether it was the morning, afternoon, or evening, I thought, is he like, is he watching me? 00:13:37.800 --> 00:13:39.640 How is he doing this? 00:13:39.339 --> 00:13:43.259 So it was frustrating and annoying and such a great memory. 00:13:43.259 --> 00:13:48.620 And I've served on some MROP teams now, and hopefully again this August with Gary. 00:13:48.620 --> 00:13:51.259 So it's such a fun bookend to 00:13:52.200 --> 00:14:01.080 remember little newbie me just stumbling around knowing that something valuable was waiting for me. 00:14:00.820 --> 00:14:02.900 With these men and in the woods. 00:14:02.900 --> 00:14:07.300 And Gary played a part in that, calling me to the sacred space. 00:14:07.300 --> 00:14:13.620 And now I get to still work with Gary and still be with him years, some years later. 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:15.120 You still have those memories. 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:16.000 Yeah, that's beautiful. 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:16.560 That's funny. 00:14:16.560 --> 00:14:25.120 I it's nice for you to share a memory like that too, because the rites in some ways for a lot of guys feels like such a profound and yet also heavy event. 00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:27.920 But there's a lot of lightheartedness throughout the event. 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:29.720 Yeah, there there can be. 00:14:30.040 --> 00:14:33.000 There were some wonderful conversations. 00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:35.960 I can remember kind of the the big 00:14:36.700 --> 00:14:39.980 picture moment of conversations was was two brothers. 00:14:39.980 --> 00:14:46.220 I had the oldest and the youngest attendees that year in my home group. 00:14:46.100 --> 00:14:51.780 I think 80 plus, and another brother was maybe 26 or 27. 00:14:51.780 --> 00:14:56.900 Not that that was a novelty necessarily, but I was just aware that I think 00:14:57.220 --> 00:15:08.100 I'm getting to hear some really epic perspectives here from both sides of not only age, but of manhood. 00:15:08.420 --> 00:15:10.660 Just stepping into manhood, having 00:15:11.740 --> 00:15:15.339 Lived manhood for 60, 70 years. 00:15:15.339 --> 00:15:16.540 That was really valuable. 00:15:17.180 --> 00:15:20.139 Obviously, there wasn't crosstalk, as we know, but 00:15:20.700 --> 00:15:28.140 Just them answering the prompts and knowing that no matter how how old you are, there can still be a longing. 00:15:28.140 --> 00:15:32.700 And just like I had, that mysterious magnetic pull. 00:15:32.700 --> 00:15:34.380 It's not specific to 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:38.880 This perfect window of 30 to 35. 00:15:38.880 --> 00:15:42.480 You know, that's not the there's no optimum rites age. 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:43.440 And they were both 00:15:44.180 --> 00:15:45.540 Getting so much out of it. 00:15:45.780 --> 00:15:48.180 We had lots of tears, lots of laughter. 00:15:48.180 --> 00:15:51.060 I kind of recall thinking, is there an age group? 00:15:51.140 --> 00:15:54.580 Is there a stereotype for this as I went into it? 00:15:54.600 --> 00:16:06.680 And they both helped me see, man, I wasn't quite in the middle, but it really helped me appreciate the beauty and the scope of what feeling initiated 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:08.080 Meant. 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:16.320 That it wasn't relative to a certain age or experience or the struggles of turning forty. 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:17.519 It had nothing to do with that. 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:18.640 We've all lived 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:29.600 Vastly different yet somehow strikingly similar lives, that it meant as much for a twenty seven-year-old as it did for an eighty-one-year-old. 00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:32.880 You stayed in touch and emailed for a while. 00:16:32.839 --> 00:16:37.319 Kind of fizzled out as we were all on some of us were in different parts of the world. 00:16:37.319 --> 00:16:41.560 But I had a brother from Europe that was there, a brother from Canada. 00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:51.720 So I'm sure there were moments with one or two brothers, but the first thing that's really stirring for me was just how much was represented in my home group. 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:52.360 It wasn't 00:16:52.920 --> 00:16:58.120 four guys, you know, all from the same cul-de-sac of suburban USA. 00:16:58.120 --> 00:17:05.079 We really came from literally different parts of the world and cultures, and that was really beautiful to me. 00:17:05.060 --> 00:17:06.819 I appreciate the insight there. 00:17:07.300 --> 00:17:16.980 Recognizing that as a ritual event, it has the capacity to transcend different people of different ages, people of different cultures and backgrounds. 00:17:16.620 --> 00:17:22.220 Yeah, it doesn't really matter if the events if the rites fit you, they'll fit you. 00:17:22.220 --> 00:17:23.100 Yeah, absolutely. 00:17:23.100 --> 00:17:24.460 I think even then there was 00:17:25.280 --> 00:17:30.560 There was talk of the idea of the onion and the layers. 00:17:30.560 --> 00:17:32.640 On a surface level, I understood that. 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:33.920 I'm like, well, sure. 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:37.600 Most things have layers that might reveal themselves later. 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:46.440 I kind of laughed it off, but holy hell, I have I have still seen layers reveal themselves in me through 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:56.360 Shadow through even recognizing the golden shadow, you know, things I can really celebrate and honor the good parts of myself 00:17:56.780 --> 00:18:04.780 MROP just opened me up to vulnerability, compassion, empathy, self-compassion. 00:18:04.780 --> 00:18:09.420 I've seen those layers unfold deeper and deeper. 00:18:09.760 --> 00:18:11.600 almost for two decades now. 00:18:11.600 --> 00:18:12.799 It's it's really wild. 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:22.000 And I think of I've seen some guys in the Illumina community, some of the I don't know if if I'm old enough to say the next generation of 00:18:22.580 --> 00:18:33.299 That guy's making the rites, but being involved with Illumina for a while, you know, brothers like you and knowing other chapters and leaders, I hear 00:18:34.060 --> 00:18:43.100 Some guys talk about, well, I'm not sure if I'm ready yet, or I'm reading this book, even thankfully, guys, listening to your wonderful podcast here. 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:48.880 That are saying, I felt called a couple of years ago, but I knew I wasn't ready, or I had to work on more forgiveness. 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:53.520 And I think that's beautiful, but so unrelatable to me. 00:18:53.520 --> 00:18:55.520 I just stumbled into it. 00:18:55.580 --> 00:19:03.500 The self-awareness that some of these guys have of knowing if they are or aren't ready for an MROP, I think that's great. 00:19:03.500 --> 00:19:04.220 It's so 00:19:04.940 --> 00:19:07.500 It's so far away from my experience. 00:19:07.500 --> 00:19:10.380 I just I had read Everything Belongs. 00:19:10.380 --> 00:19:13.019 My wife found it at a silent retreat. 00:19:13.019 --> 00:19:17.500 Literally just randomly pulled it from a bookshelf. 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:19.800 And it was really intriguing ideas. 00:19:20.120 --> 00:19:26.120 We were kind of coming from pretty convoluted evangelical Reformed backgrounds. 00:19:27.380 --> 00:19:38.100 the exhaustion of keeping that scaffolding, a lot of the mental gymnastics for me, the cognitive dissonance it required to keep 00:19:38.700 --> 00:19:42.060 Living into that was really taking a toll. 00:19:42.060 --> 00:19:47.900 So recognizing the non-duality of everything belongs 00:19:48.300 --> 00:19:51.180 That we're all parts of a whole. 00:19:51.180 --> 00:19:55.020 Even just simple, profoundly simple truths like that. 00:19:55.020 --> 00:19:59.100 You know, and Richard's so great at just these little throwaway lines. 00:19:58.540 --> 00:20:01.020 That he probably doesn't even remember anymore. 00:20:01.020 --> 00:20:04.780 He just he says those things like you and I say, Oh, hey, how you doing? 00:20:05.340 --> 00:20:06.940 But some of those have really 00:20:07.700 --> 00:20:12.820 put a hook in me, you know, and that helped me change my whole perspective of life. 00:20:12.820 --> 00:20:15.140 But that's all I needed to know. 00:20:15.140 --> 00:20:16.580 I think there's something for me. 00:20:17.419 --> 00:20:21.820 whatever these rites are, simply based on I enjoyed that book. 00:20:21.820 --> 00:20:25.900 And kind of the the rest is it was all downhill from there. 00:20:25.900 --> 00:20:31.500 But I really also admire these guys that are doing so much work before their MROP. 00:20:31.419 --> 00:20:37.740 I feel like I did nothing but just I was just trying to survive capitalist America. 00:20:37.740 --> 00:20:38.780 I don't know what I was just 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:41.039 Well, I can relate to your story. 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:48.799 And I always think of the the book Everything Belongs, I've heard Richard say, you know, it's one of his best-selling books, but he thinks that it's because of the title. 00:20:48.340 --> 00:20:51.620 Everything belongs and how that is really resonant for people. 00:20:51.620 --> 00:20:56.179 And I would say though, that even that phrase, everything belongs, really applies to the rites. 00:20:56.179 --> 00:21:01.539 You've kind of anticipated some of the questions I'm going to be asking, but one of the things I really am curious about is 00:21:01.860 --> 00:21:05.620 What was going on in your life when you decided to sign up for the rites? 00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:06.659 Let's see. 00:21:06.659 --> 00:21:10.820 We had just moved back from Nashville. 00:21:11.059 --> 00:21:15.779 Jennifer and I have have done music together with our band Annagail. 00:21:15.320 --> 00:21:28.440 Already for many years by that point, we'd signed a record deal that moved from Grand Rapids to Nashville just for sake of proximity, for management and opportunities. 00:21:28.620 --> 00:21:36.700 And shortly after we kind of found ourselves here again, we learned that we were going to be pregnant with a son. 00:21:36.700 --> 00:21:39.100 I already had two daughters. 00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:51.840 And so I I carried that with me to the MROP, not just being a father, but knowing what I was seeking and that kind of that rites hole that was in my heart. 00:21:51.900 --> 00:21:55.340 Knowing, oh, now I'm also going to be the father of a son. 00:21:55.340 --> 00:22:01.980 That was just another one of those welcomed waits, the welcomed anxiety of fatherhood and 00:22:03.179 --> 00:22:05.500 And manhood that I carried with me. 00:22:05.820 --> 00:22:10.460 Yeah, there was a lot of changes feeling a little disillusioned with 00:22:10.919 --> 00:22:11.960 with some things. 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:17.240 I was not full blown deconstructing yet, but certainly was in the process. 00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:24.039 And our record deal was kind of largely within the Christian market and some of the labels in that industry. 00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:24.360 So 00:22:24.740 --> 00:22:38.420 I was already feeling this conflict and tension that I'm trying to move towards something that on paper checks off a lot of the boxes of hopes, dreams, success, career, but it wasn't 00:22:39.260 --> 00:22:41.340 Doing that at a soul level. 00:22:41.340 --> 00:22:48.059 It was just the very shallow, kind of nameless, faceless, career level boxes. 00:22:48.059 --> 00:22:48.299 So 00:22:49.019 --> 00:22:51.419 I was recognizing the pole. 00:22:51.419 --> 00:22:54.460 I'm leaning into something that I don't think I want. 00:22:54.460 --> 00:23:02.460 And the MROP, it helped me in many ways, have space to quiet some of the racing thoughts. 00:23:02.600 --> 00:23:06.440 And really lay those out and be honest with myself. 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:13.960 When we played Leonard Cohen's anthem towards the end of the rites, that was extra special. 00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:15.320 One of those 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:28.520 Those little divine moments because we already knew our son was going to be named Cohen because Jennifer and I were both songwriting admirers of Cohen, his lyricism, his perspectives. 00:23:28.320 --> 00:23:36.400 He embodies some of that Richard Rohr everything belongs-ism about life, that there is no secular 00:23:37.019 --> 00:23:38.380 or sacred. 00:23:38.380 --> 00:23:39.740 It's all one. 00:23:39.740 --> 00:23:48.860 And growing up, definitely my there was a a strong dividing line between what's secular and sacred, and what's worthy of your time and what's 00:23:48.940 --> 00:23:50.059 Not worthy of your time. 00:23:50.059 --> 00:23:52.860 And that carried over to people as well. 00:23:52.860 --> 00:23:57.500 So the rites were such a great you know, when we break the mirror, no spoilers. 00:23:57.500 --> 00:24:00.539 If anyone's listening and you haven't done your rites yet. 00:24:00.120 --> 00:24:01.400 Don't tell anyone. 00:24:01.400 --> 00:24:08.120 That's another layer that's I've carried with me for so long 'cause that I got to be one of the rock breakers because I 00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:12.600 I said to Tom Pawlak yes to every volunteer opportunity. 00:24:12.600 --> 00:24:17.399 Breaking that mirror gave me a sense of just the space. 00:24:17.399 --> 00:24:19.480 The permission, maybe is a better word. 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:21.639 Gave myself permission. 00:24:21.560 --> 00:24:30.920 to not have to have it figured out and to wrestle with a lot of things that on the outside I wanted to present like I had I had all that shit together 00:24:30.940 --> 00:24:36.700 So when you made the decision to go to the Wrights, who did you tell and how what were their reactions? 00:24:37.019 --> 00:24:41.260 Man, I don't think I told that many people, honestly. 00:24:41.100 --> 00:24:52.539 Still was kind of largely in a community that I didn't know if I would feel misunderstood or judged because you know, good old self-righteous 00:24:52.820 --> 00:24:56.980 Christians w we're great about I don't know about that. 00:24:57.300 --> 00:25:01.060 We love to we love to gatekeep and we also love to 00:25:01.800 --> 00:25:07.640 to deter anyone from stepping outside of any of the safe spaces. 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:11.320 I think I maybe told my parents 00:25:11.900 --> 00:25:16.940 My mom as y m most recently probably within the last year or two. 00:25:17.100 --> 00:25:19.900 Still asks if it's the Illuminati. 00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:24.600 And if I'm involved in anything, you know, questionable and is it safe? 00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:26.840 So I did tell a friend 00:25:27.900 --> 00:25:35.820 Ted, who went the following time the Pilgrim Park did it on fourteen, he was a confidante. 00:25:35.820 --> 00:25:40.300 Yeah, I think I shared more after the fact, upon my return. 00:25:40.380 --> 00:25:41.420 than going. 00:25:41.420 --> 00:25:46.300 It was just such a cloud of unknowing to steal the term. 00:25:46.300 --> 00:25:50.140 I didn't hardly have anything to share. 00:25:50.120 --> 00:25:57.640 Besides, I'm just I'm just going on this woodsy retreat, which was the full extent that I could describe it myself. 00:25:57.640 --> 00:25:57.880 So 00:25:58.260 --> 00:26:08.020 But it sounded like Jennifer was aware of you know, she was the one that found the book Everything Belongs, had brought that to you and I mean those were the that was sort of the breadcrumbs that led you to 00:26:08.800 --> 00:26:10.560 Learned about the rites, yeah. 00:26:10.560 --> 00:26:11.280 Yeah, yeah. 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:12.800 She was on board, right? 00:26:12.800 --> 00:26:15.120 Yeah, she was yeah, she was on board. 00:26:15.120 --> 00:26:22.000 We didn't know about the the very valuable, worthwhile detaching from devices and clocks and 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:25.320 So if there is an emergency, you know, here's who to call. 00:26:25.320 --> 00:26:34.039 And so I think in a way that never having experienced that at a super safe Hilton retreat before. 00:26:34.019 --> 00:26:39.779 That was also a good kind of jarring because I loved I loved the danger of some of these things. 00:26:39.779 --> 00:26:42.980 And I say danger heavy air quotes. 00:26:42.900 --> 00:26:50.500 There's no saber toothed tigers or mammoths out there, but it was as primitive and primal as I could be in twenty twelve. 00:26:50.500 --> 00:26:57.220 Pulling up in my suburban, there was at least some separation from from life as normal. 00:26:57.480 --> 00:27:02.600 Even still, I kind of get goosebumps knowing how great that felt. 00:27:02.600 --> 00:27:06.520 Someone gets it, and someone's giving a space to 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:17.880 cross a threshold and change our everyday normal behaviors of just sitting around talking heads and taking notes, and then we go home. 00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:19.519 I really, really appreciated that. 00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:27.760 And I think that sent her on a bit of her own retreat as well, knowing, oh, communication is cut off for a while. 00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:27.919 Yes. 00:27:27.919 --> 00:27:30.960 So certainly we talked a little bit leading up to it. 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:36.639 And my application, some of the questions were pretty revealing answering those. 00:27:36.639 --> 00:27:40.000 I'd never really responded to questions like that before. 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:40.320 So 00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:42.480 I remember having her read those. 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:49.040 You know, I do have a question that echoes one of those questions that was on your application. 00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:52.400 Initiation is sort of a loaded word in our culture. 00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:57.360 Was there something that you were hoping to be initiated into when you arrived at the rites? 00:27:57.660 --> 00:28:06.059 Funny, it's in some ways it's a non-answer, but the answer's in the question I was just hoping to be initiated into. 00:28:06.019 --> 00:28:07.620 That's as far as I got. 00:28:07.620 --> 00:28:14.019 I think just the recognition and acceptance, the embrace. 00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:22.440 That wonderful letdown, not necessarily adrenaline, but it's like a soulful adrenaline. 00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:30.000 That could possibly be the facade of manhood, the facade of having your shit together, the facade of 00:28:30.620 --> 00:28:34.460 Everything in your career is checking the boxes. 00:28:34.460 --> 00:28:36.540 You're just climbing the ladder. 00:28:36.540 --> 00:28:38.620 Some of those things we can unknowingly 00:28:39.120 --> 00:28:43.200 build around ourselves or are built for us in some cases. 00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:44.960 I certainly was guilty of that. 00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:47.760 I didn't I don't think I knew enough about 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:53.360 Initiation and what was lacking until I got into it. 00:28:53.360 --> 00:28:55.200 It was another layer. 00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:58.080 I realized the beauty of it towards the end of the rites. 00:28:58.080 --> 00:28:58.720 Kind of like 00:28:59.120 --> 00:29:02.000 Belden in these in these apophatic ways. 00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:08.400 I knew the value of rites when I finished my MROP because I realized I hadn't had them. 00:29:08.500 --> 00:29:09.539 Up until then. 00:29:09.539 --> 00:29:14.500 So I it truly was the gold, the gift of it at the end. 00:29:14.500 --> 00:29:16.100 Yeah, I've I've seen that 00:29:16.620 --> 00:29:19.180 play out metaphorically in a lot of ways. 00:29:19.180 --> 00:29:29.100 The the gift of my rites was was just that it was the gift of exposing me to some of the lacks. 00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:30.679 That I had in my life. 00:29:30.679 --> 00:29:34.840 As a parent, from my own parents, doing the best they could. 00:29:34.840 --> 00:29:39.480 And I grew up with a farming operation in Southwest Kansas. 00:29:39.040 --> 00:29:42.000 Nothing wrong with that, but kind of a stoic family. 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:43.680 We did the best we could. 00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:48.160 And if my life had never changed from that, I probably would have never known different. 00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:51.920