WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:12.480 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:13.240 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:18.520 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:25.560 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:25.060 --> 00:00:33.860 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what changed afterward. 00:00:33.860 --> 00:00:35.940 Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. 00:00:35.940 --> 00:00:38.980 This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence. 00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:42.700 We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:48.860 In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:54.920 If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot 00:00:55.080 --> 00:00:56.840 org slash app. 00:00:56.740 --> 00:01:08.660 Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. 00:01:07.960 --> 00:01:12.840 On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:19.000 Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:01:25.600 --> 00:01:27.520 My guest today is Mark Titus. 00:01:27.520 --> 00:01:28.720 Brother, I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:28.720 --> 00:01:31.520 Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. 00:01:31.520 --> 00:01:32.800 Thanks for the invite. 00:01:32.880 --> 00:01:34.400 I'm happy to be here, Brian. 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:37.520 Mark, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:01:37.860 --> 00:01:45.940 Well, I'm up here in the Pacific Northwest, in the top left corner of the continental United States. 00:01:45.940 --> 00:01:47.860 I live in Seattle. 00:01:47.820 --> 00:01:53.740 My wife and I are steadily building a house on Whidbey Island north of here. 00:01:53.740 --> 00:01:57.580 So we're kind of in in between things in that world. 00:01:57.580 --> 00:02:02.220 I spend my time a lot of it, maybe most of it, 00:02:02.100 --> 00:02:06.020 In great devotion to wild salmon. 00:02:06.020 --> 00:02:11.620 Those who know me through Illuman will know I'm a salmon guy. 00:02:11.780 --> 00:02:21.860 I spent the better part of my career here making films about protecting wild salmon for future generations and building a business that 00:02:22.140 --> 00:02:32.140 Sources wild Alaskan sockeye salmon to restaurants and customers around the country that then gives back 10% of its profits. 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:34.640 To the place that we source from, which is called Bristol Bay, Alaska. 00:02:34.640 --> 00:02:37.520 It's the last fully intact wild salmon system on earth. 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:39.280 And we specifically give 00:02:39.620 --> 00:02:45.780 Money for Indigenous young people to receive college scholarships and trade school scholarships. 00:02:45.780 --> 00:02:47.620 In essence, returning 00:02:47.940 --> 00:02:51.300 resources to the land instead of just extracting from the land. 00:02:51.300 --> 00:02:57.300 And that's all the filmmaking and the business is all part and parcel to each other. 00:02:56.860 --> 00:02:59.260 Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. 00:02:59.260 --> 00:03:01.099 The MROP is a unique experience. 00:03:01.099 --> 00:03:02.700 It's not a retreat or a workshop. 00:03:02.700 --> 00:03:04.140 It's an initiation. 00:03:04.140 --> 00:03:09.180 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. 00:03:08.760 --> 00:03:12.200 Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. 00:03:12.200 --> 00:03:14.840 Mark, when and where did you make your rites? 00:03:15.160 --> 00:03:20.760 I made my rites in Deroche, British Columbia in May of twenty-twenty four. 00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:23.680 And do you recall who the weaver was and about how many men were there? 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:24.640 Yeah. 00:03:24.959 --> 00:03:34.480 My weaver at that rites was Ned Abenroth, and I'm guessing there were seventy men there in attendance for the rites. 00:03:34.220 --> 00:03:40.140 Now when you think back to that weekend, what's the very first image that comes forth for you? 00:03:40.459 --> 00:03:41.420 Wow. 00:03:41.739 --> 00:03:44.700 So many evocative images over that time. 00:03:44.700 --> 00:03:47.099 But the first image is 00:03:47.900 --> 00:03:55.740 Here in the Pacific Northwest, we have a lot of attention to physical manifestations of 00:03:56.400 --> 00:04:07.840 prayer and release and the vision for my rites, we had a space inside of an old barn that we called the nest. 00:04:08.100 --> 00:04:16.019 And it was the first place that I landed after my bags were taken away and hustled off to my room. 00:04:16.820 --> 00:04:19.940 Sort of in this just surprise and amazement. 00:04:19.940 --> 00:04:27.780 And I was offered an invitation to ground myself in this beautiful space that had this beautiful 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:39.840 contemplative music playing and incense and some sage burning and prayer flags, written prayers of all the men who had been there, had been to rites before. 00:04:40.260 --> 00:04:44.420 You could read them on strings around you, around your head. 00:04:44.420 --> 00:04:54.100 And I remember very keenly, to answer your question specifically, the first image that I saw was an image of a man, a wild man. 00:04:54.199 --> 00:04:57.800 Holding a golden boy, both naked. 00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:01.159 The wire there was green cast to him. 00:05:01.159 --> 00:05:05.639 And I saw this image and I just wept. 00:05:05.500 --> 00:05:06.860 I burst into tears. 00:05:06.860 --> 00:05:08.060 I knew I'd arrived. 00:05:08.060 --> 00:05:17.100 I knew there was something very mystical and true and necessary about being in this place of 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:25.520 beautiful masculine energy, which has unfortunately been a rare occurrence in modern America. 00:05:25.520 --> 00:05:30.400 So that was the first image, was this this beautiful piece of art on the wall. 00:05:29.840 --> 00:05:31.200 Yeah, thank you for that. 00:05:31.200 --> 00:05:37.680 Now, just going a little bit deeper here, how was the, how would you characterize the entire weekend experience for yourself? 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:48.360 The MROP for me, characterizing it in a hol a holistic way was a God, I d I don't know another word, but mystical 00:05:49.020 --> 00:05:52.220 Pause of time crossing a threshold. 00:05:52.540 --> 00:06:01.500 I felt like somehow I could comfortably let go of the busy mind that I brought in there. 00:06:01.320 --> 00:06:11.560 And be present with these other men and myself and my creator in a way that I certainly had anticipated. 00:06:11.460 --> 00:06:14.419 Something, but I didn't know what. 00:06:14.740 --> 00:06:18.900 And I knew immediately that 00:06:19.420 --> 00:06:22.940 There was something very special and very sacred happening here. 00:06:22.940 --> 00:06:31.260 And also, something where I could let go of the armor that I brought with me and just let it fall apart, let it fall 00:06:31.820 --> 00:06:34.460 backed by the car where the car was parked. 00:06:34.460 --> 00:06:44.300 And so I I think that the the characterization of the the whole experience for me was just a warm embrace. 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:48.440 Into mystery that I certainly had never been through before. 00:06:48.440 --> 00:06:57.800 I've never been to before, but felt exactly right and exactly like though I was being challenged. 00:06:57.199 --> 00:06:58.800 It felt like coming home. 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:10.240 Now, without sharing anything that you might consider private or confidential, was there an experience that you had at the Wrights or maybe even an encounter, a conversation with another man that really stands out to you? 00:07:10.139 --> 00:07:14.220 Oh, so many things stood out to me about the rites. 00:07:14.220 --> 00:07:17.500 It's hard to know which to choose, honestly. 00:07:17.900 --> 00:07:22.139 And I'm not sure exactly how much to divulge because I'm not sure if our audience is 00:07:22.260 --> 00:07:24.740 Yeah, whatever you're comfortable sharing is usually fine. 00:07:24.740 --> 00:07:27.380 You know, it's not about divulging all the rituals and things. 00:07:27.620 --> 00:07:32.420 We do advise, obviously, that men come to the rites with a little bit more of an open mind and maybe not have 00:07:32.660 --> 00:07:38.900 Tried to find all the answers about what they're going to experience, but a lot of men have read Adam's Return, maybe have some ideas or talk to other men. 00:07:38.900 --> 00:07:41.140 So, whatever you feel comfortable, Mark. 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:49.800 Well, I knew and had prepared my my mind for an entrance into dying before I die and considering my own death. 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:53.400 And perhaps I'll speak a little bit more about the why and the how. 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:54.960 I arrive there later. 00:07:54.960 --> 00:08:03.120 But for now, the the very first ritual of death and understanding that there is a 00:08:04.180 --> 00:08:14.020 way through this consideration of our mortality and dying before we die, it truly broke me open. 00:08:14.660 --> 00:08:16.260 It broke me open in 00:08:17.300 --> 00:08:23.940 A way that I absolutely didn't expect, I couldn't have planned or scripted for. 00:08:24.259 --> 00:08:30.020 It broke my heart wide open and allowed me to be in a state of presence that 00:08:30.420 --> 00:08:36.580 I hadn't really experienced maybe one other time that was a recent memory with the death of my father. 00:08:36.580 --> 00:08:40.340 But being in the here and now with the first ritual 00:08:40.620 --> 00:08:43.740 Experiencing my own death was unique. 00:08:43.740 --> 00:08:44.620 It was novel. 00:08:44.620 --> 00:08:47.260 It was utterly transformational. 00:08:47.260 --> 00:08:48.380 And things just 00:08:49.460 --> 00:08:58.260 With the great yes that that was, because I certainly had some anxiety, some low-level, maybe even mid-level anxiety physically walking into that. 00:08:58.260 --> 00:08:58.500 But 00:08:58.920 --> 00:09:11.800 once through it, it was this empowerment that is very hard to articulate, but it was this empowerment nonetheless of I have faced this, I've faced this death, and there is 00:09:12.420 --> 00:09:16.259 only more and further to go in and deeper to descend. 00:09:16.740 --> 00:09:22.100 Now, thinking back to your decision to attend the rites, what were the circumstances in your life? 00:09:22.100 --> 00:09:26.180 What was going on for you that led you to participate in this event? 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:27.519 It's a great question, Brian. 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:34.480 So my story about finding the rites came after the death of my father in October. 00:09:34.800 --> 00:09:37.360 He died October sixteenth, twenty-twenty three. 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:39.040 My dad, Gil. 00:09:39.160 --> 00:09:45.959 And we had a, like many men, most men maybe, we had a challenging relationship. 00:09:45.959 --> 00:09:49.959 We had a loving relationship, especially in the end. 00:09:49.959 --> 00:09:51.079 And one that I 00:09:51.900 --> 00:10:03.020 as a man in recovery from addiction, as an alcoholic, I had the rare privilege, the great privilege, of making a real amends with my dad before he died. 00:10:02.620 --> 00:10:05.420 in my case, years before he died, thankfully. 00:10:05.420 --> 00:10:13.820 But also I had the the most singular spiritually profound experience of my life holding him while he passed. 00:10:13.140 --> 00:10:15.220 Through the veil and to the other side. 00:10:15.220 --> 00:10:21.060 And flash forward, some months later, a couple months later, it was holidays. 00:10:21.060 --> 00:10:23.460 And we decided as a family to not 00:10:23.820 --> 00:10:26.540 Celebrate Christmas at the family home. 00:10:26.540 --> 00:10:27.820 It was too painful. 00:10:27.820 --> 00:10:32.860 And so we we went out here in Washington out to the coast, the ocean, and rented a house. 00:10:32.860 --> 00:10:35.260 And the whole the whole family showed up, which was great. 00:10:35.260 --> 00:10:35.900 It was good. 00:10:35.900 --> 00:10:36.300 It was 00:10:36.580 --> 00:10:49.300 A collective place to grieve, but at a certain point I needed to grieve on my own, and so I jumped in the car and I'm a fly fisherman, a steelhead fisherman, and I decided to drive a couple hours to drive up the coast. 00:10:49.140 --> 00:10:56.660 to Steelhead Fish for the day I'd get away from the throngs of Family Time, and and I thought, you know, I really need to listen to something 00:10:57.120 --> 00:10:59.200 For my journey as an audiobook. 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:04.959 And so I started flipping through my audiobooks, and up pops The Universal Christ by Richard Rohr. 00:11:04.959 --> 00:11:08.640 And I remember reading this book years prior. 00:11:08.440 --> 00:11:14.840 I remember it being good, but not much more, and thought it just something about it flashed. 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:17.800 It was like, this is it. 00:11:17.220 --> 00:11:18.980 This is what I need right now. 00:11:18.980 --> 00:11:26.180 And I listened to it, and I had a two-hour drive up, and I stood in a river in the rain and the cold. 00:11:25.839 --> 00:11:28.959 And the beauty, the austere beauty of the mountains and the mist and the fog. 00:11:28.959 --> 00:11:32.800 And then I listened to it for another two hours on the way home and back to our cabin. 00:11:32.800 --> 00:11:33.279 And something 00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:39.680 Something about it coming through my ears went and landed right in my heart and it lit it on fire. 00:11:39.680 --> 00:11:43.760 And about a week later, I finished the audiobook after another little road trip and I 00:11:44.140 --> 00:11:50.140 I walked right from my car upstairs to where I'm sitting right now, and I opened my laptop and I looked up. 00:11:50.140 --> 00:11:53.500 Richard Rohr, how can I get involved? 00:11:53.040 --> 00:11:56.399 And found the Center for Action and Contemplation in New Mexico. 00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:00.320 And then I thought, well, I'll volunteer and I'll go down there. 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:04.959 And I was after a few minutes of thinking, that's not really practical right now. 00:12:04.640 --> 00:12:08.480 dug deeper and found Illuman and the men's rites of passage. 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:12.160 And I it it was an instant recognition. 00:12:12.160 --> 00:12:15.600 This is what I've been looking for my whole life. 00:12:15.079 --> 00:12:20.600 And so that night I filled out the application and I prayed and I set hit hit send. 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:22.759 And so that was that. 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:23.880 And as I 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:32.000 Then flash forward to my rites in May, that was in January, I come to realize as I'm pulling up into the property 00:12:32.160 --> 00:12:43.120 the beautiful, beautiful property in the hills and the green valley of the Fraser River and British Columbia, I realized that as I'm pulling in there, I had I'm celebrating seven years of continuous sobriety. 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:43.600 Days 00:12:43.920 --> 00:12:48.800 Prior to this, and to the day it's seven months from when my dad died. 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:51.440 And strangely enough, or not 00:12:51.820 --> 00:12:57.580 As I get assigned to a cabin to sleep, and I'm assigned to cabin, you guessed it, cabin seven. 00:12:57.580 --> 00:13:03.580 So and as it turns out, at the very end of the MROP, there was another reason to 00:13:04.040 --> 00:13:08.680 to ponder the number seven that Ned gifted us and gifted me. 00:13:08.680 --> 00:13:11.880 So that's what was going on for me when I arrived 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:20.319 When you told your family members, your friends, your wife, maybe even a spiritual director, whoever, that you were going to attend the rites, what was their reaction? 00:13:19.860 --> 00:13:34.100 I'm blessed to be in a marriage with a woman I love and I really like, and I really have learned over time and grown as a man in recovery to embrace rigorous honesty. 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:41.279 And as such, I have found great strength and courage in sharing the things that are important to me. 00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:46.720 I don't share every last detail like anybody else, and certainly not things that are hurtful or harmful or 00:13:46.959 --> 00:13:56.399 or things that are ill-advised, but but I do I do now share the things that are most important to me because she's the most important person of my life. 00:13:56.060 --> 00:14:07.980 And so when she saw the grief that I was going through, grieving my father, and then saw what happened to me physically, when I found the rites of passage, she's like 00:14:08.420 --> 00:14:10.259 Get gone, g do this. 00:14:10.259 --> 00:14:12.259 I it was an instant embrace. 00:14:12.259 --> 00:14:19.940 I mean, she could physically see off of me this ebullience and light, I guess, as she said. 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:24.000 in anticipation of this threshold of belonging. 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:28.800 And similarly, I have a spiritual advisor who is my therapist. 00:14:28.800 --> 00:14:34.319 She specializes in recovery and the spiritual approach to recovery. 00:14:33.940 --> 00:14:37.060 that is in the the Twelve Steps that I'm a member of. 00:14:37.060 --> 00:14:44.740 And similarly, she she as well was like this, you know, she knew Richard Rohrer's work and she just 00:14:45.140 --> 00:14:47.700 Couldn't be more enthusiastic about it. 00:14:47.700 --> 00:14:53.380 Other members of my family and others, I kept to myself for the most part, because 00:14:54.279 --> 00:15:02.440 This is something I was taking in a very sacred way, in a way that was not to be shared or posted about. 00:15:03.140 --> 00:15:04.500 trivialized in any way. 00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:08.100 I was taking it to heart and that that was important. 00:15:08.100 --> 00:15:13.140 So I I primarily shared with my wife and and my therapist, my spiritual advisor and 00:15:13.520 --> 00:15:19.920 They were blessing me with winds of the journey to go forth with Godspeed. 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:24.080 And when you came to Rice, did you come alone or did you come with a group of men? 00:15:23.839 --> 00:15:25.600 I came completely alone. 00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:27.279 Didn't know a single person. 00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:30.480 So when you drove up to the you said it was Camp Fraser? 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:33.440 It was a place called Deroche, British Columbia. 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:34.800 And yeah, d on the 00:15:35.140 --> 00:15:38.900 Just above on a hill above the Fraser River, the Fraser River Valley. 00:15:38.900 --> 00:15:39.300 Okay. 00:15:39.300 --> 00:15:39.620 Yeah. 00:15:39.620 --> 00:15:40.660 In BC. 00:15:40.660 --> 00:15:45.060 What was going on for you right as you pulled up to the rites and you were preparing to enter? 00:15:45.380 --> 00:15:45.700 Well 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:58.160 I remember pulling through a tunnel of trees and there was a great big tent, which I would later learn is called the Sacred Space for us. 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:04.760 Off to my right and came up to the top of the hill and was greeted by a brother named Ted. 00:16:04.760 --> 00:16:08.279 And Ted invited me to get out of the car and hand him over my car keys. 00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:10.360 And I thought, well, this here we are. 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:11.320 I had some 00:16:11.920 --> 00:16:22.160 Certainly butterflies, anxiety, but a resounding yes in me that was like, okay, much like seven months prior. 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:30.120 The resistance that I had to being with my dad while he was dying, because I was afraid of it, I came somehow. 00:16:30.520 --> 00:16:41.720 I didn't come to some somehow something I believe through my higher power, my Creator came through me to that allowed me to say yes to going through it. 00:16:41.220 --> 00:16:49.620 Not around it, not under it, not over it, as I've done many times in my life in other situations, but to say yes to going through. 00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:51.140 And that same 00:16:52.300 --> 00:17:00.060 Grace, I guess, was leading me on as I got out of my car, surrendered my keys and my bags and 00:17:00.700 --> 00:17:05.420 Was invited to be there, which is a hard thing to do. 00:17:05.420 --> 00:17:10.860 And this monkey mind is going, you know, a thousand miles an hour all the time. 00:17:10.439 --> 00:17:22.039 So yeah, it was it was instantly recognizing nature and my I which I am most at home in and feeling that sense of vitality. 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:26.920 And also mystery and then that grace of something telling me to keep going. 00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:31.720 When you arrived at the Wrights, was there something that you were hoping to be initiated into? 00:17:32.040 --> 00:17:33.640 When I arrived at the Wrights 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:45.840 All I knew was I have been involved ever more increasingly in a spiritual path of living because of the gift of desperation I was given. 00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:54.220 at the time, seven years prior, it's now nine years, when I was when I'd hit rock bottom as an addict, an alcoholic. 00:17:54.919 --> 00:18:06.120 the only way forward for me was commit admitting complete surrender and defeat and go literally physically going down all the way to the bottom and accepting that 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:15.520 The path forward for me was admitting that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity and then turning my will and my life over to that power. 00:18:15.520 --> 00:18:16.640 As such, 00:18:16.919 --> 00:18:25.240 Coming to the rites felt like, number one, it felt like an extension of that belief and that mode of being. 00:18:25.140 --> 00:18:28.020 Without a doubt, absolutely sure about that. 00:18:28.020 --> 00:18:33.380 And then, secondly, though, it felt like the fulfillment of a promise and a fulfillment of 00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:40.960 I don't know, prophecy is too strong a word, but of a vision, a dream that I'd had in my early, early 20s. 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:43.840 When I was in college, I read Iron John. 00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:46.440 In fact, I met Robert Bly shortly after college. 00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:51.320 My best friend from college and I had Ragged Bone Shop of the Heart as well as Iron John. 00:18:51.320 --> 00:18:54.440 And we went to a reading with Robert Bly and he signed a book for us. 00:18:55.040 --> 00:19:05.360 And I remember at the time, like, awakening to the idea that, as he wrote about in Iron John, that there are initiations that are sacred and that have been 00:19:05.919 --> 00:19:11.840 Instigated from time immemorial for all men, in fact, all people throughout the world. 00:19:11.840 --> 00:19:17.760 And our culture here in the West is the only singular culture that has abandoned those things. 00:19:17.340 --> 00:19:28.620 and hasn't hasn't had any meaningful ritual that brings men, young men, into the community of initiated men. 00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:37.600 who have the tools and the open heart and the facing of their own death before they die to move through life and truly live. 00:19:37.380 --> 00:19:45.220 Live a life with meaning and purpose and love, and gravitas, and the commitment to service to others. 00:19:45.019 --> 00:19:58.460 And so I guess for me, yes, coming into the rites, I felt there was a threshold to cross here, one that I had been subconsciously anticipating for almost 30 years. 00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:05.200 Now you've been very forthcoming about saying that you experienced anxiety or maybe even some fear surrounding the decision to go to the rites. 00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:09.440 But as you arrived at the rites or went through the rites, can you elaborate on that anxiety? 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:12.720 Or was it a different kind of fear that may have emerged? 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:13.040 Mm-hmm. 00:20:13.360 --> 00:20:15.680 I'm no stranger to anxiety. 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:20.320 When I was in active addiction, I would live with 00:20:20.919 --> 00:20:25.080 A level eight to ten anxiety every single day. 00:20:25.080 --> 00:20:34.440 And I treated that with the very thing that was killing me: alcohol, which, boiler alert, it makes it worse, much worse. 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:34.760 And 00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:44.799 Since getting sober and coming into recovery in a community of people who are committed to that in a spiritual way of living and being, I was given tools. 00:20:44.220 --> 00:20:48.700 Over time, to deal with my anxiety and to incorporate my anxiety. 00:20:48.860 --> 00:20:57.660 In fact, not to pretend like it doesn't exist, but to in fact embrace it and see it and name it, breathe into it and let it go. 00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:07.640 So when I was leading up to the days before getting in the car to drive north across the border 00:21:07.660 --> 00:21:11.660 To go into Canada and go to the rites of passage for me, I had anxiety. 00:21:11.660 --> 00:21:19.020 I had low-level anxiety about what am I gonna you know, just logistical things, going across the border, and but I mean, just all the usual kind of 00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:24.920 crap that you know my my brain will wade into and just gnaw on it endlessly. 00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:27.800 But also just like, am I really prepared for this? 00:21:27.800 --> 00:21:30.920 Am I spiritually prepared for this? 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:33.600 I didn't ever feel like there was an unworthiness. 00:21:33.600 --> 00:21:37.760 I felt like worthy and in line with 00:21:38.419 --> 00:21:45.460 my beloved, and yet I didn't know w exactly if I could if I could handle it or if I was up to the challenge. 00:21:45.460 --> 00:21:49.620 And so, you know, as I remember, you know, I took it 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:50.120 Real. 00:21:50.120 --> 00:21:51.480 I took it very seriously. 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:54.520 Like, I wasn't listening to K pop on the way up. 00:21:54.520 --> 00:21:56.600 Not that I listen listen to K pop. 00:21:56.600 --> 00:22:04.120 But I was I had some, you know, some some as my nephews and nieces like to call it, Uncle Mark's dolphin music. 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:07.760 Some very sacred music playing ambient music in the background. 00:22:07.760 --> 00:22:17.440 And I was in a state of prayer and communication about preparation and preparing and opening my heart no matter what to walk through. 00:22:17.600 --> 00:22:26.240 Whatever fear I may encounter, which I did, beyond just arriving, like they're leading up to certain rituals, you know, especially the ritual of death. 00:22:27.019 --> 00:22:36.059 I had some definitely some anxiety around that and breathed into it, acknowledged what it was, thanked it for showing up. 00:22:37.120 --> 00:22:40.960 said this is this is the path forward through this. 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:46.080 So yeah, it was present and because of it, I think it made 00:22:46.820 --> 00:22:56.100 the experience of passing through the threshold of initiation that much more sacred and that much more potent for me. 00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:59.039 You know, taking you back now to the when the Wrights closed. 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:02.159 So, you know, it's I always say it's a significant event. 00:23:02.159 --> 00:23:05.120 You're there for parts of five days, four nights. 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:06.720 As you alluded to, there's ritual. 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:10.320 There's a lot to do throughout that experience, and you go through a lot. 00:23:10.320 --> 00:23:11.840 But now the rites are over. 00:23:11.840 --> 00:23:16.880 You've had the closing rituals and it's time to leave and you get in your car and you head back to Washington. 00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:18.240 How are you feeling right then? 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:19.120 Oh my God. 00:23:19.980 --> 00:23:31.900 The way I felt leaving DeRoche was clear at peace and held held in a 00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:44.000 In a certain embrace of love, being held gently in this embrace of love, I felt that I had passed through something that 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:53.960 I'd pass through something that had only existed in my mind, a fear of death, and facing that and 00:23:54.800 --> 00:24:06.960 And coming into a sense of intimacy, especially on my day on the land in the woods, in a torrential rainstorm next to a creek, and visitations from 00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:11.160 the natural world and the other side, that felt like anyway. 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:21.160 And it felt like my life before was before and my life now was integrated into this 00:24:22.179 --> 00:24:27.620 This gentle embrace that I was held in was not going to go away. 00:24:27.620 --> 00:24:29.940 Things were clear, and things 00:24:31.100 --> 00:24:39.580 In the outside world, traffic and noise and things which are right there as soon as you leave just weren't as consequential. 00:24:39.580 --> 00:24:41.340 And I didn't really care about them. 00:24:41.340 --> 00:24:43.260 To this day, two years later, I am 00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:46.680 Still, like, I don't really watch the news. 00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:49.160 I don't pay attention, don't care about it as much. 00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:53.000 Social media has been down 90%. 00:24:54.200 --> 00:24:57.880 Things that I would let myself get wrapped around the axle about. 00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:00.360 It just it's not like I don't notice them. 00:25:00.360 --> 00:25:01.720 I know they're there. 00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:02.920 I just don't care. 00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:04.440 I don't care as much about them. 00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:05.960 What I do care about is 00:25:06.700 --> 00:25:16.540 getting quiet in dissent, loving the people I get to love in this lifetime, and being of service if I can. 00:25:16.220 --> 00:25:22.940 So upon leaving, it was this deep quiet and one of knowing and one of being held. 00:25:23.660 --> 00:25:28.860 Your previous answer kind of anticipated my next question, but I want to still ask you to go a little deeper with the idea of 00:25:29.140 --> 00:25:36.420 Now that it's been two years since your rites, what's changed, you know, in you practically, relationally and spiritually? 00:25:36.740 --> 00:25:38.420 Everything's changed. 00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:42.559 Nothing's changed because it was there all along. 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:47.840 And the rites allowed me to understand that. 00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:56.580 And not just in a cerebral way, in my mind, but in my body, in a cellular level, in my heart. 00:25:56.220 --> 00:26:05.500 As I mentioned, I just haven't been as interested in the noise in the secular world. 00:26:05.419 --> 00:26:15.660 For one, because as a man in recovery and one that has chosen a spiritual path in life of contemplation 00:26:15.740 --> 00:26:18.460 It just doesn't matter to me as much. 00:26:18.780 --> 00:26:28.860 But two, I just can't get wrapped around the axle of those things because we live in a really hard, challenging, divisive time in the United States of America right now. 00:26:28.860 --> 00:26:29.180 And 00:26:30.100 --> 00:26:38.659 I simply can't go to a place of being baited to be angry and of being reactive. 00:26:38.500 --> 00:26:48.340 And to looking at my neighbors and my friends and my people around me in my community and outside of my community as other. 00:26:48.040 --> 00:26:50.680 That is just not in the cards for me. 00:26:50.680 --> 00:27:00.520 I am called to look at every human, no matter what their actions or reactions are, as kin. 00:27:00.520 --> 00:27:00.760 And 00:27:01.320 --> 00:27:06.680 To find them in the embrace of love and to find the gaze of Christ in their eyes. 00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:10.840 And I mean that in the universal Cosmic Christ way. 00:27:10.840 --> 00:27:12.200 As Father Rohr would 00:27:12.419 --> 00:27:14.660 Talk about it in his book. 00:27:14.660 --> 00:27:23.620 So, you know, at the head of this, Brian, off-camera, so to speak, I told you I'm in a liminal space right now in my life. 00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:26.240 I'm at a crossroads in my career. 00:27:26.560 --> 00:27:33.680 One that I have little tiny modicum of control over, but right now, this minute, very little. 00:27:34.120 --> 00:27:35.480 Very little control. 00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:43.720 The things that have been done have been done, and there's decisions going to be made that are outside of my control. 00:27:43.679 --> 00:27:53.120 about the way forward with a vision that I had eight years ago for creating a sustainable business to try to help people and help 00:27:53.620 --> 00:27:55.860 Salmon and rivers and indigenous people. 00:27:55.860 --> 00:27:57.620 And it felt really good at the time. 00:27:57.620 --> 00:28:00.500 It felt like this was the calling and being led there. 00:28:00.500 --> 00:28:00.820 And 00:28:01.340 --> 00:28:05.740 There are circumstances now that suggest that it may or may not. 00:28:05.740 --> 00:28:15.179 And there may be something there's room to accept the fact that things fall apart and something may die here and something new may come around. 00:28:14.740 --> 00:28:28.260 And I got to be honest with you, nine years ago when I was still an active addiction and before I had embraced a contemplative way of life in a community of other men who get it. 00:28:28.019 --> 00:28:38.740 and want to get it and want to lean in and want to embrace each other in a loving embrace, I'd have been lost and in isolated in the bathroom with a bottle under the sink. 00:28:38.740 --> 00:28:40.179 And no exaggeration. 00:28:40.179 --> 00:28:42.419 Like that that was my life. 00:28:42.340 --> 00:28:53.940 And that could be my life again if I were to get off of this narrow path of embracing a pathway of love. 00:28:53.780 --> 00:29:02.100 And descent into my body, into the earth itself that I'm made of, and I get to borrow this body a while, just a little bit from. 00:29:02.940 --> 00:29:06.220 In summary, everything has changed since the rites. 00:29:06.220 --> 00:29:11.580 I'm now very involved in the Illuman community here in the Pacific Northwest. 00:29:10.840 --> 00:29:13.320 I've stoked in Oklahoma last year. 00:29:13.320 --> 00:29:20.840 I'll be stoking in Texas at John Knox Ranch this year, part of the initiator program a year ago in Oregon. 00:29:20.419 --> 00:29:31.940 And as I mentioned earlier, for me, I found community and love and support and a common language in this community of men through Loom and some of us 00:29:32.340 --> 00:29:38.900 They find it in their churches, they find it in their secular communities, they find it in other works and parts of their life. 00:29:38.900 --> 00:29:46.820 For me, being a part in the Brotherhood of Illuman has complemented those things in my life, and I'll continue on with that path. 00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:52.960 I'm really interested in how the rites impact our relationships, really our especially our personal relationships. 00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:54.400 I mean, that's been a big factor for me. 00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:56.960 So let me ask you, if I was to say to your wife 00:29:57.040 --> 00:29:59.840 How has Mark changed since making the rites? 00:29:59.840 --> 00:30:01.440 Do you have any idea what she might say? 00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:09.440 My wife's name is Venka, and I think if you were to ask her how I've changed since the Rites, she'd just start laughing. 00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:09.680 Like 00:30:10.140 --> 00:30:11.740 a joyful laugh. 00:30:12.700 --> 00:30:18.220 I remember coming home and maybe it was the day after I got home. 00:30:18.300 --> 00:30:20.380 or days, doesn't matter. 00:30:20.380 --> 00:30:25.740 We walked up the hill here in Queen Anne and Seattle to one of our our 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:37.840 coffee shops and we like to go to and and I was just so aware of it was it's it's about this time of year, everything was in bloom 00:30:38.019 --> 00:30:45.620 Everything was so green and lush and the wind was moving through the trees and I was just so aware of all of it. 00:30:46.700 --> 00:30:58.460 For anybody that's seen the film Train Dreams and Bill Macy's character in a very memorable, maybe the most memorable scene in the movie. 00:30:58.419 --> 00:31:08.340 Is looking around under this canopy of trees, and the light's shining through, and he's with his friend who's the main character in the film. 00:31:09.019 --> 00:31:11.899 And he just says, It's so beautiful. 00:31:11.899 --> 00:31:14.620 And his friend says, What is? 00:31:14.940 --> 00:31:18.620 And he's just looking around, and you can see he's seeing 00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:27.960 He's seeing the same trees, he's seeing the same light, but he's also seeing through that into some truth beyond that and inside of that. 00:31:27.980 --> 00:31:33.340 And he says, all of it, all of it is so beautiful. 00:31:33.340 --> 00:31:35.820 And on that day when I came home 00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:44.360 From the rites, and we were walking up the hill and noticing all the wind and the trees and the blooms, and being present in that moment. 00:31:43.919 --> 00:31:45.919 That is exactly what I was feeling. 00:31:45.919 --> 00:31:53.200 And I remember my wife looking at me and she's she just said, I don't know what happened to you, but this is good. 00:31:52.840 --> 00:31:59.320 So I think her answer would be, I don't fully understand what it is, but I know that it is good. 00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:00.360 Wonderful. 00:32:00.360 --> 00:32:02.520 Now let's see if we can pull back just a little bit. 00:32:02.520 --> 00:32:07.000 I want to ask you, since going on the rites of passage, have your thoughts about masculinity 00:32:07.340 --> 00:32:11.419 even the rites of passage, even the male journey through life changed. 00:32:11.740 --> 00:32:19.500 My understanding of the necessary balance between the divine masculine and the divine feminine has 00:32:20.120 --> 00:32:26.760 Altered in ways that I didn't think were possible and continues to grow. 00:32:26.760 --> 00:32:27.720 We are in 00:32:29.020 --> 00:32:38.300 Such an ego-led state in daily life in the United States of America right now. 00:32:38.300 --> 00:32:38.620 And 00:32:39.380 --> 00:32:51.140 There are forces at work that seek to profit from rage and outrage and anger and darkness, and not contemplative darkness, but 00:32:51.880 --> 00:33:00.040 Shadow, and I think that over time there has been an equation of men. 00:33:00.380 --> 00:33:13.020 writ large being lumped into a fractal of that darkness that is associated with domination and fear and greed. 00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:15.880 and power at all cost. 00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:21.559 And unfortunately, I think that there is a segment of our population 00:33:21.820 --> 00:33:29.500 That believes that that is what masculinity is about, and that's all masculinity has been about for the last 2,000 years has been 00:33:30.120 --> 00:33:36.600 Around domination and exploitation and greed and self-servitude. 00:33:36.600 --> 00:33:38.760 And that's something that I 00:33:39.320 --> 00:33:47.960 Was utterly reactive to before doing the rites in all ways, like reactive in rejecting that. 00:33:47.900 --> 00:33:51.100 In my and finding that in my own shadow work as well. 00:33:51.100 --> 00:33:55.100 Like, where am I how is that showing up in my as well? 00:33:55.100 --> 00:34:00.300 And also reactive in certain segments of the population. 00:34:00.220 --> 00:34:12.060 just lumping all men into that category and saying that this is the ma masculine experience to be dominant and exploitative and violent and oppressive. 00:34:12.200 --> 00:34:21.080 I have never experienced the embrace of wholehearted, open masculinity that is 00:34:21.899 --> 00:34:26.460 Utterly prevalent in Illuman and through the rites of passage. 00:34:26.460 --> 00:34:32.060 And I mean that in a physical sense, and in an intellectual sense, and in a heart sense. 00:34:32.179 --> 00:34:35.379 you are welcome in this circle. 00:34:35.379 --> 00:34:37.300 You are embraced in this circle. 00:34:37.300 --> 00:34:45.460 And surprise, surprise, it's okay to like physically embrace other men in this circle in a way that until 00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:54.000 Finding this community has been viewed with suspicion or with something akin to 00:34:55.179 --> 00:34:58.540 Rejection of male intimacy. 00:34:58.540 --> 00:35:01.579 And clearly, this has nothing to do with sexuality. 00:35:01.579 --> 00:35:07.500