WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:12.480 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:13.240 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:18.520 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:25.560 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:25.060 --> 00:00:33.860 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what changed afterward. 00:00:33.860 --> 00:00:35.940 Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. 00:00:35.940 --> 00:00:38.980 This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence. 00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:42.700 We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:48.860 In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:54.920 If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot 00:00:55.080 --> 00:00:56.840 org slash app. 00:00:56.740 --> 00:01:08.660 Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. 00:01:07.960 --> 00:01:12.840 On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:19.000 Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:01:25.520 --> 00:01:27.280 My guest today is Ken Beck. 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:28.480 Father, I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:31.280 Thanks for making time and for being willing to share your story. 00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:33.040 Thanks for inviting me, Brian. 00:01:32.939 --> 00:01:35.740 Ken, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:01:36.060 --> 00:01:39.740 I'm in Minneapolis, and I spend my time teaching. 00:01:39.740 --> 00:01:44.220 I'm still a full-time middle school public teacher, eighth grade math, although 00:01:44.160 --> 00:01:45.680 Next year, I might be sixth grade. 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:46.480 We'll find out. 00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:50.160 That's making me a little nervous because I've been here for a long time at this grade level. 00:01:50.160 --> 00:01:52.000 Anyway, so I'm spending my time 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:56.120 teaching and I've got two sons that are both growing and out of the house. 00:01:56.120 --> 00:02:00.920 So my wife and I are just enjoying time riding bicycles when we can. 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:04.200 And but most and I'm also pretty involved in the church too. 00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:04.360 So 00:02:04.740 --> 00:02:07.220 Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. 00:02:07.220 --> 00:02:08.899 The MROP is a unique experience. 00:02:08.899 --> 00:02:10.420 It's not a retreat or a workshop. 00:02:10.420 --> 00:02:11.700 It's an initiation. 00:02:11.700 --> 00:02:16.340 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. 00:02:16.340 --> 00:02:19.220 Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:21.560 Where and when did you make your rites again? 00:02:21.960 --> 00:02:27.240 I did my rites in twenty thirteen in Minnesota, and that was called Osprey Wild. 00:02:27.240 --> 00:02:29.720 It used to be called the Audubon Center of the Northwoods. 00:02:29.720 --> 00:02:32.760 And who was the weaver, and about how many men would you say were there? 00:02:32.540 --> 00:02:35.180 The Weavers, I think it was like a co-weaving thing. 00:02:35.180 --> 00:02:38.700 It was like Kevin Anderson and Bob White. 00:02:38.700 --> 00:02:41.980 And I think we had sixty guys there, I want to say. 00:02:41.980 --> 00:02:44.140 It was kind of a bigger crowd. 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:47.959 Now when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image that comes forth for you? 00:02:47.959 --> 00:02:54.360 My first image was the the boulder that I sat on during our time in the wilderness. 00:02:54.360 --> 00:02:58.120 We had some time to spend outside. 00:02:57.920 --> 00:03:03.760 In silence and not checking things off of our to-do list, but just to be in wilderness. 00:03:03.760 --> 00:03:06.320 And I found this kind of a liminal rock. 00:03:06.320 --> 00:03:11.360 It was like behind me was forest, and then in front of me was plains, this like field. 00:03:11.220 --> 00:03:16.019 And I sat on this boulder, and that's where I spent my wilderness time. 00:03:16.019 --> 00:03:23.459 It wasn't the most comfortable thing, and it turns out the tics were really loving that boulder, because I was near oak trees, and the deer were coming eating 00:03:23.460 --> 00:03:28.420 Not when I was there, but they would come and eat the oaks and then ticks would fall off of them and then they'd crawl on me. 00:03:28.420 --> 00:03:30.660 So that's what I remember most is the rocks. 00:03:30.660 --> 00:03:32.900 Not the ticks, but the rocks. 00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:38.400 Now, when you think back to that entire weekend as a whole, in a very general way, what was that like for you? 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:43.200 Well, I was kind of nervous getting there, but it was very it was transformative. 00:03:42.920 --> 00:03:45.960 I emerged as a different person. 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:48.840 And I it wasn't like a light switch. 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:50.600 It was more like an ironing board. 00:03:50.600 --> 00:03:52.440 That transition was quite slow. 00:03:52.440 --> 00:03:54.520 Like it didn't happen right when I came back. 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:55.480 You know, it was 00:03:56.020 --> 00:04:05.300 kind of slow as I slowly absorbed all of the things that I witnessed, all the stories that I heard, all the stories that I shared from my own background. 00:04:04.760 --> 00:04:07.480 And the rituals, of course, and the time in nature. 00:04:07.640 --> 00:04:18.360 Having never done a men's retreat before, I was part of a men's group at the church, but that was mostly about cooking breakfast and signing up for things to do around the church. 00:04:17.820 --> 00:04:19.820 It wasn't really diving deep. 00:04:19.820 --> 00:04:23.020 So it was transformative, I guess, is the best way to say it. 00:04:23.180 --> 00:04:31.580 Now, without sharing anything you'd consider confidential, is there a particular memory or encounter uh with another man that you're willing to share that captures 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:33.320 What the rites meant to you at that time? 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:42.280 I remember hearing a lot of the kind of the pain and grief that other men have experienced and are experiencing still. 00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:43.960 That was very moving. 00:04:43.960 --> 00:04:55.560 It had a deep impact on me, is witnessing one of the grief rituals and participating in that and hearing the stories in our I don't know if we called them home groups at the time, now they're called council circles. 00:04:56.120 --> 00:05:03.400 Just being a witness to people who there was a not a priest, but there was a person who had 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:07.040 a religious role to play in his church. 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:10.000 And he was questioning whether God existed. 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:13.200 I mean, it's like a really deep personal thing. 00:05:13.200 --> 00:05:17.680 There was another guy who experienced violence and another guy who is just 00:05:18.300 --> 00:05:24.060 You know, anyway, just the grief and the pain and the stories are just so deep in these men. 00:05:24.060 --> 00:05:26.540 And I was also very happy to. 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:33.840 To witness that and not try to cure it and not try to fix it and not recommend a book or not recommend a therapist or whatever. 00:05:33.840 --> 00:05:35.840 It's just, you know, I hear you, brother. 00:05:35.840 --> 00:05:37.280 I'm with you shoulder to shoulder. 00:05:37.280 --> 00:05:38.240 I can't. 00:05:38.320 --> 00:05:38.720 I don't know. 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:44.400 It it's leaving me speechless because you don't really know what to say in response, except I hear you. 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:46.080 Yeah, thank you for that reflection. 00:05:46.080 --> 00:05:52.080 I was talking to another man in our community that's much more of an elder. 00:05:51.660 --> 00:05:57.580 And he was saying that what he's realizing becoming an elder is that it's a lot of it's about holding space. 00:05:57.580 --> 00:05:59.900 And I hear you describe that there. 00:05:59.460 --> 00:06:02.340 Yeah, I'm stumbling over words 'cause it's really hard to explain. 00:06:02.340 --> 00:06:10.659 But not only are you receiving vulnerability, but you're being vulnerable yourself and that you know, again, for me, in this context, it only happens in in those council circles. 00:06:10.659 --> 00:06:13.460 I mean, it uh for other men it might help in other spaces too, but 00:06:13.539 --> 00:06:20.259 But that was a big part of it, is receiving and having that space of vulnerability and digging deep. 00:06:20.259 --> 00:06:22.340 Let me ask you to go back to 00:06:22.740 --> 00:06:28.980 just before the rites, whatever that period was that led up to you registering for the rites, what were the circumstances in your life? 00:06:28.980 --> 00:06:32.580 What what caused you to say, yes, this is something I would like to do? 00:06:32.580 --> 00:06:35.620 Well, I initially initially went 00:06:36.100 --> 00:06:39.780 Because it was the 10-year anniversary of my dad's death. 00:06:39.780 --> 00:06:41.940 So, dad died in 2003. 00:06:41.940 --> 00:06:43.860 And he was an okay dad. 00:06:43.860 --> 00:06:45.620 You know, he did fine. 00:06:45.620 --> 00:06:48.180 He with the tools that he had available 00:06:48.440 --> 00:07:00.360 Um, he was a, you know, a truck driver in South Dakota, and he had raised four boys and stayed married all of his life, and but I never really grieved his death. 00:07:00.100 --> 00:07:04.420 And I went there thinking I was going to deal with with that. 00:07:04.420 --> 00:07:10.580 But instead, I ended up dealing with this totally different shadow within myself involving my job and this 00:07:11.020 --> 00:07:20.620 thing that happened with a student, and it was something that I was shameful of, and I kept it a secret, and I didn't share things. 00:07:20.620 --> 00:07:23.820 And it for years I would not share 00:07:24.580 --> 00:07:25.460 This story. 00:07:25.460 --> 00:07:27.860 And finally, I decided, you know what? 00:07:27.860 --> 00:07:31.060 Instead of dealing with Dan's death, this is a bigger. 00:07:31.060 --> 00:07:34.340 This is something that's got control over me. 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:39.639 And I decided to share that story with my homes group, my council circle. 00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:42.680 And that shadow then was lifted. 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:45.240 It's still there, but it's lifted. 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:48.520 It no longer controls me as it used to. 00:07:48.660 --> 00:07:52.500 And kind of forgot the question, but I think that was I think I answered a question. 00:07:52.820 --> 00:07:56.260 Yeah, I was really asking why you decided to sign up for the rites. 00:07:56.260 --> 00:07:58.260 But let me ask, how did you learn about the rites? 00:07:58.260 --> 00:08:01.220 How did you know that this was an offering out there for you? 00:08:00.780 --> 00:08:01.020 T. 00:08:01.020 --> 00:08:06.060 Michael Rock had invited me, so he went in he went four years prior. 00:08:06.060 --> 00:08:08.380 And in Minnesota we'd hosted every two years, and so 00:08:08.760 --> 00:08:17.000 I was part of this men's group of the church, but like I said, the men's group was mostly focusing on just kind of organizing things and fixing light bulbs and cooking breakfast. 00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:18.680 We did have one service project. 00:08:18.760 --> 00:08:22.040 We would go cook a meal at this men's shelter. 00:08:21.820 --> 00:08:22.780 In Minneapolis. 00:08:22.780 --> 00:08:24.140 And so that was meaningful. 00:08:24.140 --> 00:08:26.380 But there was really no deep shearing. 00:08:26.380 --> 00:08:26.860 And T. 00:08:26.940 --> 00:08:30.940 Michael had encouraged us to go in 2009 with him, and I didn't go. 00:08:30.940 --> 00:08:33.740 And then he encouraged us to go in 2011 and I didn't go. 00:08:33.740 --> 00:08:34.940 So I fine. 00:08:34.700 --> 00:08:37.820 So I finally decided, you know, twenty thirteen dad died ten years ago. 00:08:37.820 --> 00:08:40.060 Maybe I should go and kind of deal with this kind of stuff. 00:08:40.060 --> 00:08:43.660 And like I said, I ended up dealing with something totally different. 00:08:43.740 --> 00:08:54.620 So how did your friends, your family, perhaps your wife or if you had a spiritual director or other people, how did they respond to your decision when you said, yeah, I'm going to this event, I'm going to attend the rites? 00:08:54.339 --> 00:08:56.180 I think there's a lot of confusion. 00:08:56.180 --> 00:08:58.420 They didn't really know what it was. 00:08:59.300 --> 00:09:02.339 Some of them might have thought, well, why is this for men? 00:09:02.339 --> 00:09:05.620 You know, I'm white Christian, middle-aged. 00:09:05.140 --> 00:09:07.700 Right-handed end of, isn't the world already about you? 00:09:07.700 --> 00:09:11.060 You know, why are you going off on this retreat? 00:09:11.060 --> 00:09:13.140 And it was really hard to explain. 00:09:13.540 --> 00:09:14.820 I got support, of course. 00:09:14.820 --> 00:09:17.700 I mean, nobody said, no, don't go, you know, whatever. 00:09:17.820 --> 00:09:24.140 But there was just kind of a little bit of confusion, but like, okay, he's going to go do this thing, that's fine. 00:09:24.140 --> 00:09:25.900 I got a lot of support from my wife, though. 00:09:25.900 --> 00:09:28.700 That was the biggest supporter. 00:09:28.020 --> 00:09:30.820 I've been to the the Osprey Center. 00:09:30.980 --> 00:09:31.460 What is it called? 00:09:31.460 --> 00:09:33.060 The Osprey Wild - Osprey Wilds. 00:09:33.060 --> 00:09:33.380 Yeah. 00:09:33.380 --> 00:09:34.660 Yeah, the Osprey Wilds. 00:09:34.660 --> 00:09:38.900 The first time I was there, I think it was still being referred to as the Audubon Center of the North. 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:40.360 And it's just a beautiful location. 00:09:40.520 --> 00:09:46.680 And as somebody that not from Minnesota, I just love that sitting right next to a really large lake. 00:09:46.680 --> 00:09:47.960 Just beautiful, beautiful. 00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:52.040 And I don't know if the rites was your first time there, but I'm what I'm leading you to is 00:09:52.440 --> 00:10:05.000 When you arrived at the rites, when you pulled in and you knew you were about to enter sort of this liminal space, the sacred space and go through this experience, was there something that you were hoping for that you really wanted to be initiated into? 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:11.519 Before I went, I read Richard Rohr's From Wild Man to Wise Man. 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:16.959 And so I was hoping to be initiated into a more comfortable 00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:20.000 I guess, dialogue with other men. 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:29.040 Until my rites, I found them to be either intimidating or something I felt like I lacked 00:10:29.020 --> 00:10:32.780 what it took to participate in any conversation with any group of guys. 00:10:32.780 --> 00:10:34.380 I can remember this as a kid, too. 00:10:34.380 --> 00:10:41.820 I remember going to s visit uncles and aunts in South Dakota and stuff, and I was more comfortable in the kitchen with the women. 00:10:41.500 --> 00:10:55.180 than in the living room or outside with the guys 'cause they were talking about farming equipment and neighbors and sport things and hunting and things that I didn't really have any particular interest in. 00:10:54.940 --> 00:11:02.380 So I was hoping to be just initiated into my own flavor of masculinity, I guess. 00:11:02.380 --> 00:11:03.260 You know, I don't 00:11:03.900 --> 00:11:18.220 conform to a lot of the things that a typical guy, American guy, does, but I still identify as a male, as a man, and I just really wanted to be initiated into that. 00:11:18.460 --> 00:11:27.020 And also b being a teacher and having students of all genders in my classroom, being a good role model for them too. 00:11:27.020 --> 00:11:27.820 But that was 00:11:28.220 --> 00:11:32.540 Ooh, not even secondary, maybe tertiary, kind of like it was really low on the totem pole. 00:11:32.540 --> 00:11:39.740 I think most of my reasoning was for my own initiation into just what does it mean to be a man 00:11:39.660 --> 00:11:49.100 I don't want to simplify your answer there, Ken, but if I may, what I'm hearing you say is that you really wanted some affirmation of your own masculinity. 00:11:49.100 --> 00:11:51.660 I think a lot of our listeners probably feel that as well. 00:11:51.660 --> 00:11:52.940 Absolutely. 00:11:52.560 --> 00:11:55.840 Now, is there anything that you were fearing as you entered the roads? 00:11:56.160 --> 00:11:57.040 Oh, yeah. 00:11:57.040 --> 00:12:01.040 I well, like I already said, I found men to be intimidating. 00:12:01.040 --> 00:12:01.760 So being 00:12:02.620 --> 00:12:05.180 With a group of men, only one of whom I know. 00:12:05.180 --> 00:12:06.220 That was intimidating. 00:12:06.220 --> 00:12:06.779 So I knew T. 00:12:06.860 --> 00:12:07.660 Michael was there. 00:12:07.660 --> 00:12:09.180 He was one of the speakers. 00:12:09.500 --> 00:12:10.700 So that was intimidating. 00:12:10.700 --> 00:12:13.820 And I also, for some reason in my head, I got 00:12:14.040 --> 00:12:16.279 I got some of the instructions wrong or something. 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:23.720 I don't know what it was, but I thought we were going to be spending twenty four hours out in the wilderness just by myself, like no tent or nothing. 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:24.520 And I was a little afraid of that. 00:12:24.520 --> 00:12:31.880 I calmed down once I realized, oh, no, you've got twenty four hours of there's like a fasting and some silence and stuff like that. 00:12:31.880 --> 00:12:32.120 But 00:12:32.339 --> 00:12:33.940 It's not you out in the wilderness. 00:12:33.940 --> 00:12:36.819 It's you spending some time in the wilderness, but it's safe. 00:12:36.819 --> 00:12:38.420 You'll be in the daylight. 00:12:39.380 --> 00:12:42.660 It's not like you're totally roughing it. 00:12:42.040 --> 00:12:44.440 So I was a little intimidated and a little scared by that. 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:48.839 But I think most of that fear was just being around men that I don't know. 00:12:48.839 --> 00:12:54.600 And then the second part of it was the misunderstanding on my part, which got cleared up relatively quickly once I got there. 00:12:54.420 --> 00:12:58.819 So, you know, you it's the the rites, I always say it's a it's a significant experience. 00:12:58.819 --> 00:13:00.259 It's it's better part of five days. 00:13:00.259 --> 00:13:03.380 You're there for four nights, but eventually it does come to an end. 00:13:03.060 --> 00:13:04.580 and it's time for you to leave. 00:13:04.580 --> 00:13:12.180 How did you feel immediately after you left the Osprey Wilds and started your return to normal life, so to speak? 00:13:11.740 --> 00:13:13.100 I was kind of floating. 00:13:13.100 --> 00:13:17.020 There was so much that happened that I I needed time to process it. 00:13:17.020 --> 00:13:21.820 And I rode there and back with some other, again, people I don't know. 00:13:21.820 --> 00:13:23.660 I think there's three guys. 00:13:23.500 --> 00:13:27.100 one of whom is now on the core team here in Minnesota with me. 00:13:27.100 --> 00:13:33.420 And we were kind of processing it together on the drive back, and I still needed some time. 00:13:33.420 --> 00:13:34.940 I didn't get it. 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:40.160 But I needed some time to just kind of sit and journal and think about it or whatever. 00:13:40.160 --> 00:13:42.160 I eventually I did, but 00:13:42.540 --> 00:13:52.220 I really felt like I needed to come back and have like a whole day or a half day to just kind of process what was happening, to look over the notes that I took and look over the handouts and just 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:55.640 Refresh myself in what w what had just happened. 00:13:55.640 --> 00:13:57.960 Because it's a long five days. 00:13:57.960 --> 00:14:00.280 I mean, it feels like you're there for like two weeks. 00:14:00.280 --> 00:14:01.880 Yeah, you gather together in the evening. 00:14:01.880 --> 00:14:02.680 I was like, well, wait a minute. 00:14:02.920 --> 00:14:04.360 Was that talk just this morning? 00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:06.040 It felt like it was two days ago. 00:14:06.040 --> 00:14:06.600 Yeah. 00:14:06.920 --> 00:14:08.680 You know, it's been a significant amount of time. 00:14:08.680 --> 00:14:11.079 It's been more than a decade since you made your rites. 00:14:11.079 --> 00:14:15.480 What has changed in your life practically, relationally, even spiritually, in that time? 00:14:15.800 --> 00:14:17.800 Oh, there's tons. 00:14:17.839 --> 00:14:19.360 I can list tons of things. 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.560 My appreciation for poetry, I think, has grown. 00:14:22.880 --> 00:14:28.639 I'll even not be afraid to write a poem, write a poem now, whereas before I was like, oh, I can't do this. 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.040 But now I'm like, oh, yeah, this is what. 00:14:30.839 --> 00:14:34.519 how I express myself, nobody else is going to read it or care, so that's fine. 00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:39.160 I think my relationship with other men, I I don't have that fear anymore. 00:14:39.160 --> 00:14:40.199 Like if I'm 00:14:40.339 --> 00:14:46.500 in a gathering and there's other men there, I can connect a lot better and I'm more secure in myself. 00:14:46.500 --> 00:14:54.500 And even though they might still talk about sports or cars or whatever, I can still listen and appreciate and value that brother for what they're 00:14:54.820 --> 00:15:04.580 Sharing and they're sharing something of interest and value to them, or maybe they're trying to put up a face and a mask that you know that they don't want penetrated, and maybe I can come back to them later. 00:15:04.580 --> 00:15:05.780 And anyway, so I 00:15:06.040 --> 00:15:12.120 What's changed in me has boy, I want to say everything, but like my role in the church. 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:13.959 I'm getting tapped for 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:17.080 Different leadership positions in places. 00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:26.120 I'm not asking for these things, but people are saying, Hey, we would like you to be our treasurer at the church, or they want us to be the want me to be the moderator at the church, and they, you know 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:32.760 I'm a union leader in in my building now, and people are starting to see that there's something in me. 00:15:32.760 --> 00:15:36.440 And it sounds like I'm breaking, but they're starting to see something in me that 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:38.560 They want in leadership. 00:15:38.560 --> 00:15:40.080 And I don't think that was there before. 00:15:40.560 --> 00:15:48.240 Yeah, it sounds to me I mean, the first word that comes to mind is assertive, but I'm also hearing that you feel more comfortable in stepping into leadership roles. 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:48.800 Yeah. 00:15:48.800 --> 00:15:51.120 You found that capacity within yourself. 00:15:50.940 --> 00:15:51.340 Right. 00:15:51.340 --> 00:15:57.180 Because before I would say, oh gosh, no, or I would say yes because I don't want to disappoint somebody. 00:15:57.180 --> 00:16:02.220 But now I'm like, oh, ideas are how I can contribute and lead this group to wherever it is they're going. 00:16:02.300 --> 00:16:04.460 Depends on what their group is, I guess. 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:09.680 So it sounds to me like the rites did help affirm you as a man and your masculinity. 00:16:09.680 --> 00:16:18.080 But what really I'm curious about is how did your conversation, specifically with other men, but within people in general, change after the rites? 00:16:17.820 --> 00:16:25.100 I have learned to bring in some of those concepts of counsel to my conversation. 00:16:25.100 --> 00:16:27.900 You know, listen from the heart and speak from the heart. 00:16:28.800 --> 00:16:31.520 Be spontaneous and be lean of expression. 00:16:31.520 --> 00:16:36.000 So those four core tenants of that council circle 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:40.600 I bring those into staff meetings or whatever. 00:16:40.600 --> 00:16:48.680 And I try to use those and truly, truly listen to what other people are sharing, whether it's in a meeting, something that's a bit more formal, something that's 00:16:48.740 --> 00:16:58.660 Somebody sharing with me other uh so I know at my church other men have gone to illuminate events or some of them have have done the full rites, and my relationship with them is very different too. 00:16:58.660 --> 00:17:02.340 And I can give them a full almost bear hug and 00:17:02.740 --> 00:17:06.900 right in the middle of church and people are might be wondering what what was that about? 00:17:06.900 --> 00:17:08.900 And well, they can find out, I guess. 00:17:08.900 --> 00:17:12.980 But anyway, so I I feel like I have g grown into my 00:17:13.339 --> 00:17:19.260 My energies, my warrior and magician and lover and king energies might be more than four, I don't know. 00:17:19.260 --> 00:17:23.339 But I feel like I'm growing into my healthy masculinity. 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:23.680 Yeah, well, thank you. 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:25.280 That sounds very affirming. 00:17:25.280 --> 00:17:26.320 I appreciate that. 00:17:26.320 --> 00:17:36.160 I do want to know what you, you know, not that you had a real strong sense of this beforehand or an articulation for what masculinity initiated, the male purpose was. 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:39.360 Or has that shifted since going on the rites? 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:40.960 Yeah, I think so. 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:46.560 I used to view masculinity and being masculine as being just 00:17:47.300 --> 00:17:52.580 the protector and the provider and the fixer-upper guy, you know. 00:17:52.580 --> 00:17:57.940 A man can go out and fix his garage door or fix this or that or the other thing. 00:17:58.700 --> 00:18:07.260 most of the time when I try to fix stuff, I end up making it worse than having needing to call somebody who knows what they're doing. 00:18:06.820 --> 00:18:09.620 And now and I used to be kind of ashamed of that too. 00:18:09.620 --> 00:18:12.100 And and there's also that financial piece too. 00:18:12.100 --> 00:18:15.380 I mean, as a public school teacher, I'm not swimming in money over here. 00:18:15.940 --> 00:18:18.179 I used to be a little intimidated by that. 00:18:18.179 --> 00:18:19.220 And now I'm not. 00:18:19.220 --> 00:18:26.580 I'm just, you know, we live within our means and we enjoy what we have, and we share, and we contribute, and we give. 00:18:26.600 --> 00:18:38.679 And I've I've learned that masculinity is so much broader and deeper than that, than just the protector, that warrior energy stuff from my twenties and thirties. 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:47.280 Well, I've known you for a while, Ken, and you've obviously been involved in the Illuman community for many years, and you have a strong regional community up in Minnesota. 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:51.160 My question is, what would you tell a man? 00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:58.679 Well, first, let me just acknowledge that it's difficult sometimes to invite a man to participate in the rites and for him to say yes. 00:18:58.679 --> 00:19:01.320 It's not as straightforward as it might seem. 00:19:01.419 --> 00:19:09.340 And so my thought here is, what would you say to a man who's trying to discern whether or not to participate in the rites? 00:19:09.220 --> 00:19:14.580 I would say, and I've I've heard other podcasts of yours, and a lot of the guys will say if you're stuck. 00:19:14.660 --> 00:19:15.860 And I think that's really true. 00:19:15.860 --> 00:19:17.540 Like, if you're finding yourself 00:19:17.919 --> 00:19:26.880 confronting a challenge and the old way of doing things, the old way of being a man, doesn't fix that challenge, whatever it is for you. 00:19:26.700 --> 00:19:28.140 What do you mean I've got this challenge? 00:19:28.140 --> 00:19:29.820 I've got I just bought a new pickup truck. 00:19:29.820 --> 00:19:30.860 I just have a bigger boat. 00:19:30.860 --> 00:19:34.940 I've I you know, I just got a promotion in my job. 00:19:34.620 --> 00:19:36.380 But yet I'm still having this issue. 00:19:36.380 --> 00:19:37.580 I'm still having this grief. 00:19:37.580 --> 00:19:39.340 I'm still feeling this pain. 00:19:39.340 --> 00:19:40.460 And it's not going away. 00:19:40.460 --> 00:19:44.380 I'm not I've got this distance in this relationship or that or whatever it is. 00:19:44.500 --> 00:19:50.260 If you're feeling like you're missing something, then I would definitely, if you're discerning at all, I would say go. 00:19:50.260 --> 00:19:53.940 If you've rejected it outright, then you probably aren't even listening to this anyway. 00:19:54.260 --> 00:19:58.179 But if you're discerning it all, I would encourage it to go, to do it. 00:19:58.500 --> 00:20:01.539 I think you will find it transforming and 00:20:02.380 --> 00:20:08.060 worth the five days and the time and the money and the travel. 00:20:08.060 --> 00:20:14.860 Because what you're going to gain out of it is is is a deep relationship with other men and with yourself and with creation too. 00:20:14.860 --> 00:20:16.620 Thank you so much for that. 00:20:16.260 --> 00:20:22.820 Now, I I also want to ask you, s since I have you on here, you were talking about even being intimidated by relationships with other men. 00:20:22.820 --> 00:20:26.980 I think the first time I came up to an event in Minnesota was 2018. 00:20:26.460 --> 00:20:32.620 And I remember sitting in council with a group of men and some of them from Minnesota, Wisconsin, the Dakotas. 00:20:32.620 --> 00:20:38.460 And I was really taken by sort of the honestly intimidated by sort of the stoicism. 00:20:38.140 --> 00:20:45.100 That I encountered in council, men that would be very quiet, not say a word. 00:20:45.100 --> 00:20:49.740 And yeah, I found it a little bit intimidating, and probably it contributed to me being a little bit more 00:20:50.300 --> 00:20:52.380 Speaking too much, you know, honestly. 00:20:52.380 --> 00:20:56.620 But what's really curious to me is that, you know, lately I just read Iron John. 00:20:56.700 --> 00:20:59.820 Took me a long time to go back and encounter that book because 00:21:00.019 --> 00:21:05.940 The times that I had encountered Robert Bly in his interviews and things like that, he seemed like a strong man. 00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:06.820 And he had that. 00:21:06.820 --> 00:21:12.179 I've told other men, he had the voice of the inner critic in my head, you know, a very angry, kind of strong 00:21:12.660 --> 00:21:15.460 And I realized, no, no, he was much more tender than that. 00:21:15.460 --> 00:21:19.460 And my point here is that Bly is from your region of the country. 00:21:19.460 --> 00:21:22.740 And he is considered one of the guys that had. 00:21:22.560 --> 00:21:33.280 Founded the mytho-poetic movement that kind of started in the maybe the eighties and really took off and has contributed to not only things like the Mankind Project, but you know, what we do in Illuman 00:21:33.560 --> 00:21:41.160 So I want to ask you, as somebody from the Dakotas in Minnesota, what is it in the culture there that leads to this men's work? 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:47.800 Or what is needed by men in the culture that has caused this work to be developed and cultivated in that region? 00:21:47.620 --> 00:21:56.980 I think a lot of the guys that you've encountered in Minnesota, because you also came out here, you came out for a Bob Dylan retreat too. 00:21:56.980 --> 00:21:57.300 Yeah. 00:21:57.300 --> 00:21:58.500 You're a writing retreat, yeah. 00:21:58.500 --> 00:21:59.540 Yeah, writing retreat. 00:21:59.540 --> 00:21:59.780 So 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:08.120 So I think a lot of the guys that you've encountered out here in Minnesota and the Midwest were raised by men who, like you said, were very stoic. 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:12.360 They're not comfortable with sharing, they're not comfortable with vulnerability. 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.520 we've got this kind of John Wayne mentality out here. 00:22:15.520 --> 00:22:22.000 At least our parents did, you know, just be quiet and do the work, and you know, you don't like it, but that's just the way it goes, son. 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:24.800 You just have to do the things you don't want to do. 00:22:24.919 --> 00:22:25.960 I forgot his name. 00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:26.519 Shoot. 00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:33.080 He would so he was on public radio and he would say something like Ketchup gives you the energy to get up and go do the things you're supposed to do. 00:22:33.080 --> 00:22:35.080 I forgot what his name is. 00:22:34.800 --> 00:22:40.560 Anyway, I think it's a lot of it is just this really guardedness we have in the Midwest. 00:22:40.560 --> 00:22:44.640 We have we put on these masks, we don't want to let anybody in. 00:22:44.419 --> 00:22:49.460 mainly because I don't want to burden you, Brian, with my problems. 00:22:49.460 --> 00:22:52.900 I should be man enough to handle my problems on my own. 00:22:52.900 --> 00:22:54.740 I'm just going to swallow this hard 00:22:55.220 --> 00:23:00.980 And if I need some alcohol or other drugs to help me swallow that and keep it down, then I'll do that. 00:23:00.980 --> 00:23:04.500 And I think a lot of that pain just got transmitted. 00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:06.420 And a lot of us don't know 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:15.360 what it's like to have a father who is open and sharing and vulnerable and loving and just 00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:21.600 reading poems and hugging and kissing their adult kids and sharing that love. 00:23:21.600 --> 00:23:25.200 We just didn't I didn't get that from my dad. 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:29.040 The most praise I got from him was second hand after I moved out of the house. 00:23:29.040 --> 00:23:34.320 That's when he would brag to other people how proud he was of what I accomplished. 00:23:33.740 --> 00:23:39.820 You know, and he died in 2003, you know, so I'm still kind of feeling that father hunger, I guess, from him. 00:23:39.820 --> 00:23:41.100 And I think it's pretty widespread. 00:23:41.180 --> 00:23:42.860 This may not be just the Midwestern thing. 00:23:42.860 --> 00:23:44.700 It may not it might be in other regions too. 00:23:44.700 --> 00:23:46.300 I don't really know. 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:52.680 Yeah, I just think it in some ways it's fir it's culturally evident, whether or not it's you know, it's in the certain populations and also movies and things like that. 00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:56.600 I think in movies like Fargo, they they make fun of that on some level, but it's not because 00:23:56.840 --> 00:24:02.280 My experience is not because the men from this region are devoid of those deep emotions and feelings. 00:24:02.280 --> 00:24:05.000 And so I'm glad for that insight that you brought up of Bob Dylan. 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:10.360 And it's worth mentioning Robert Bly was a poet and he translated many poets. 00:24:09.660 --> 00:24:15.340 And brought and popularized poet poets like Kabir and Rumi and Hafez in our culture. 00:24:15.340 --> 00:24:16.940 And of course, Bob Dylan, my goodness. 00:24:17.260 --> 00:24:18.860 These guys and these guys come from this region. 00:24:18.860 --> 00:24:22.300 So there's an incredible depth of emotion and everything. 00:24:23.260 --> 00:24:23.820 Well, thank you. 00:24:23.820 --> 00:24:33.580 And I wanted to ask you also, one of the other men that I had talked to talked about he wished that he had had this initiatory experience as a young man. 00:24:33.140 --> 00:24:40.980 What I was always taken with right away after I made my rites was how many men were immediately so energized by this, they wanted to give this experience to others. 00:24:40.980 --> 00:24:45.700 So they would develop the rites in their region or volunteer at the rites of passage. 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:51.160 Or some of the men were really keen on bringing this to their sons and to younger men. 00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:55.640 So men that may be 18 to 30, and maybe even younger adolescent men. 00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:58.120 And so those rites have developed. 00:24:57.540 --> 00:25:04.020 You know, you as a man with I mean, you had three brothers, you said you have two sons that are grown. 00:25:04.020 --> 00:25:07.860 You work with middle schoolers, boys and girls, no doubt. 00:25:07.360 --> 00:25:10.080 But I wonder what you would say about youth rites. 00:25:10.080 --> 00:25:12.000 And do you have anything to say about youth rites? 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:18.720 And how significant you feel it would be to do these initiatory rites sooner rather than later. 00:25:18.179 --> 00:25:21.700 'Cause I'm assuming, like me, you encountered this very much in midlife. 00:25:21.700 --> 00:25:22.100 Yeah. 00:25:22.100 --> 00:25:22.580 Yeah. 00:25:22.820 --> 00:25:27.380 So I let's see, I was 2013, so I was probably in my, I guess, early 40s. 00:25:27.220 --> 00:25:32.740 So yeah, we we hosted a Young Men's rites in Minnesota, and I was part of the leadership team. 00:25:32.740 --> 00:25:37.060 I had a very minor role to play in that, but we had the men young men out. 00:25:37.140 --> 00:25:40.020 One of my son's friends went through it. 00:25:39.919 --> 00:25:41.840 And it had a different flavor to it. 00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:50.720 To answer your question, I think a young man's rites and even a boy's rites, if I'm even younger than that, it would have a different flavor to it. 00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:59.840 when you're doing the men's rites of passage, you're kind of helping men in this transition, this almost midlife crisis, if you want to kind of expand it that way. 00:26:00.419 --> 00:26:02.980 For young men, they're still building their container. 00:26:02.980 --> 00:26:09.059 They're still it's okay for them to get these accomplishments and to get these degrees or 00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:18.480 to get these accomplishments, to get whatever, as long as they're not confusing the accomplishments with themselves and misplacing their value. 00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:22.160 them as a man versus this car that I've got in my driveway. 00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:30.000 And when we did the young men's rites, it it had the stories were similar, the feeling was different, much more visceral, much more 00:26:30.540 --> 00:26:32.780 physical the young men went through. 00:26:32.780 --> 00:26:39.340 But the the - it seemed like the men's rites were hit me just at the right time. 00:26:39.340 --> 00:26:40.620 It seemed like it was just 00:26:40.940 --> 00:26:46.700 Serendipity, Divine Intervention, I'm not sure, but it seemed to hit me right at the right time. 00:26:46.700 --> 00:26:48.380 And I think for the young men 00:26:48.560 --> 00:26:58.640 it would help them to have that vocabulary, to have them understand that it's okay to build these containers, to develop yourself and to build these accomplishments, but you're going to eventually 00:26:59.100 --> 00:27:04.539 have this crisis, something is going to happen that all of those things that you accomplished are not going to help you. 00:27:04.539 --> 00:27:06.700 And you're going to lose your identity in that. 00:27:06.700 --> 00:27:09.580 You don't want to keep sailing off on that and try to keep 00:27:09.940 --> 00:27:20.260 you know, accomplishing and getting and acquiring and consuming, you got to start slowing down and letting go and going downhill and descend a little bit with others. 00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:29.000 I know in my question is sort of that implicit desire, all of us have that idea that I wish I knew then what I know now, and how would that have changed things? 00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:42.800 And I think it's worthwhile to say that exposing younger men and boys to these rites and, like you said, to this vocabulary, to some of the ritual and just being honest with them about what they're going to experience in life could be really beneficial. 00:27:42.440 --> 00:27:49.480 For example, I witnessed my parents were not perfect people either, and they would do things like therapy and counseling. 00:27:49.480 --> 00:27:50.760 You know, they would go on retreats. 00:27:50.760 --> 00:27:52.840 So there's this acknowledgment that they're 00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:53.840 They're wounded. 00:27:53.840 --> 00:27:56.800 They have issues that need to be addressed and worked on. 00:27:56.800 --> 00:28:07.200 And that had a profound impact on me, you know, not resisting some of those modalities that we of counseling and therapy and things as I got older in life and probably eventually led to the rites. 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:07.360 So 00:28:07.560 --> 00:28:09.560 I mean, I guess that's just a long way of saying it. 00:28:09.560 --> 00:28:13.160 We often encounter this when it's the right time for us. 00:28:13.160 --> 00:28:15.960 Ken, you've been involved, like I said, with the Illumina community for a long time. 00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:19.240 You're now the convener for the Illuman of Minnesota. 00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:22.120 Can I ask you to share some final words or some thoughts, anything? 00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:26.160 Illuman is more than just the rites of passage now. 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:30.160 When I first when in 2013, that was kind of the only thing it that they did. 00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:32.560 But now we have council circles and we have 00:28:32.919 --> 00:28:34.440 virtual council circles. 00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:38.120 We have events and retreats that are not the ranks of passage. 00:28:38.120 --> 00:28:40.600 I mean, there's lots of there's online opportunities. 00:28:40.600 --> 00:28:45.960 There are lots of avenues for men to access these relationships. 00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:46.120 And 00:28:46.540 --> 00:28:54.860 I think that's one of the things that the young men's rites offered was access to these relationships, these really deep, meaningful ones, not the surface level ones. 00:28:54.860 --> 00:28:56.220 The surface level ones are fine. 00:28:56.220 --> 00:28:57.260 There's nothing wrong with that. 00:28:57.260 --> 00:28:59.740 There's just there's more. 00:28:59.419 --> 00:29:00.539 than just that. 00:29:00.539 --> 00:29:02.220 And join a council circle. 00:29:02.380 --> 00:29:07.340 If the five-day retreat thing doesn't work for you, then there's virtual council circles online. 00:29:07.340 --> 00:29:10.700 There's ways that you can find these relationships with guys. 00:29:10.700 --> 00:29:10.940 And 00:29:11.340 --> 00:29:12.539 It's really meaningful. 00:29:12.539 --> 00:29:17.660 And you asked before about something that I recall from the rites of passage. 00:29:17.660 --> 00:29:24.220 I remember the contemplative sits, and it was really amazing for me to feel the 00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:30.919 power of forty, fifty guys sitting in a circle and not saying anything for like twenty minutes. 00:29:30.919 --> 00:29:33.639 We're just breathing and being together and just 00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:38.240 the power of that group silence was amazing. 00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:40.560 I often crave that. 00:29:40.560 --> 00:29:43.440 Just reach out and have access to these relationships. 00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:47.840 There's lots of avenues that you can get into it, whether it's in the rites of passage or 00:29:48.140 --> 00:29:52.460 If you've already done the rites and you want to dive deeper, be you know, become an initiator. 00:29:52.460 --> 00:29:54.220 Take that second dip in. 00:29:54.220 --> 00:29:56.860 So yeah, I think I'll leave it at there. 00:29:56.320 --> 00:30:02.000 Yeah, I chuckle because a lot of us when especially when you and I were making the writes, there wasn't a lot as much available. 00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:05.280 And so it required a jump into the deep end. 00:30:04.660 --> 00:30:07.620 But as you said, you don't have to go that route. 00:30:07.940 --> 00:30:17.620 If you're the type of person that would like to wade in and test things out, like you said, there's virtual councils, there's local councils in many places throughout the country, there's other retreats and events. 00:30:17.340 --> 00:30:21.500 And you guys do such a great job of keeping men engaged throughout the year. 00:30:21.500 --> 00:30:23.820 So thank you so much, Ken, for your time. 00:30:23.820 --> 00:30:25.419 And I really appreciate it, brother. 00:30:25.419 --> 00:30:28.620 And I just want to say I love you, and thank you. 00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:29.240 Thank you, Brian. 00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:29.799 I love you too. 00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:38.120 For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. 00:30:37.300 --> 00:30:44.740 The Men's rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six. 00:30:44.740 --> 00:30:51.700 While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since twenty twelve a Illuman has been the steward of this work. 00:30:51.340 --> 00:30:54.140 Preserving and Adapting the rites for Men All Over the World. 00:30:54.140 --> 00:31:01.020 To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return by Richard Rohr. 00:31:00.360 --> 00:31:06.760 If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six. 00:31:06.760 --> 00:31:10.760 The first is in Northern California, May thirteenth through the seventeenth. 00:31:10.140 --> 00:31:16.540 the second in the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth, and in Illinois, August twelfth through the sixteenth. 00:31:16.540 --> 00:31:20.460 There's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth 00:31:20.360 --> 00:31:27.320 and the final one of the year is in Texas, which is an MROPN Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth. 00:31:27.639 --> 00:31:31.080 You can find details and registration information at Illuman. 00:31:31.240 --> 00:31:31.799 org 00:31:31.919 --> 00:31:34.400 slash MROP, or Illuman dot 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:35.919 org Slash Events. 00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:41.520 Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman. 00:31:41.040 --> 00:31:44.240 taking place November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico. 00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:48.080 You can find more at Illuman dot org slash awaken. 00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:51.680 Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence 00:31:51.760 --> 00:31:57.120 If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life. 00:31:57.120 --> 00:32:01.039 Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence dot 00:32:01.280 --> 00:32:03.120 org slash app. 00:32:02.860 --> 00:32:07.260 It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today. 00:32:07.580 --> 00:32:10.860 Thank you for listening to Follow Me to the MROP. 00:32:10.840 --> 00:32:13.640 Until next time, brothers, stay present.