WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:12.480 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:13.240 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:18.520 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:25.560 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:25.060 --> 00:00:33.860 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what changed afterward. 00:00:33.860 --> 00:00:35.940 Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. 00:00:35.940 --> 00:00:38.980 This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence. 00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:42.700 We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:48.860 In a world of constant distraction, Choosing Presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:54.920 If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot 00:00:55.080 --> 00:00:56.840 org slash app. 00:00:56.740 --> 00:01:07.220 Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and 00:01:07.380 --> 00:01:08.660 soul. 00:01:07.960 --> 00:01:12.840 On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:19.000 Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:01:25.440 --> 00:01:27.280 My guest today is Dave Kraybill. 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:28.400 Brother, I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:28.400 --> 00:01:31.760 Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. 00:01:31.060 --> 00:01:32.260 Thanks a lot, Brian. 00:01:32.260 --> 00:01:34.660 Really appreciate the opportunity to be here. 00:01:34.660 --> 00:01:34.980 I'm 00:01:35.140 --> 00:01:37.940 honored that you've asked me to do this, to tell my story. 00:01:38.260 --> 00:01:38.820 Thank you, Dave. 00:01:38.900 --> 00:01:42.100 Tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:42.200 Okay. 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:42.920 I grew up, 00:01:43.160 --> 00:01:45.240 Brian, on a farm 00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:45.880 in a 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:47.480 Mennonite home, in a Mennonite 00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:47.880 farming 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:48.520 largely 00:01:48.760 --> 00:01:52.600 Mennonite farming community of Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:52.520 And 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:56.760 eventually, after quite a number of career turns, 00:01:56.920 --> 00:01:59.560 ended up going into academia. 00:02:00.340 --> 00:02:02.900 agricultural economist by training, and so 00:02:03.060 --> 00:02:03.939 worked in the U. 00:02:03.939 --> 00:02:04.259 S. 00:02:04.420 --> 00:02:07.619 in several academic jobs at several universities. 00:02:07.619 --> 00:02:07.940 And then 00:02:08.100 --> 00:02:08.420 also 00:02:08.580 --> 00:02:13.540 along the way, my wife and I have lived and worked in Africa for 11 years. 00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:13.400 And 00:02:13.640 --> 00:02:16.680 the way I spend my time these days is 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:20.040 I've been retired for a number of years now. 00:02:20.760 --> 00:02:22.280 I'm a hobby woodworker. 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:27.320 I love to make furniture, both for our house as well as increasingly 00:02:27.480 --> 00:02:29.000 for various Illuman 00:02:29.320 --> 00:02:30.520 events. 00:02:30.480 --> 00:02:30.800 And 00:02:31.440 --> 00:02:32.640 also, I 00:02:32.880 --> 00:02:34.720 put a good deal of time into 00:02:35.040 --> 00:02:37.040 some leadership roles in Illuman now. 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:39.920 Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. 00:02:39.920 --> 00:02:41.680 The MROP is a unique experience. 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:43.200 It's not a retreat or a workshop. 00:02:43.200 --> 00:02:44.720 It's an initiation. 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:48.959 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. 00:02:48.959 --> 00:02:51.680 Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:52.319 Dave, when 00:02:52.640 --> 00:02:54.640 and where did you make your rites? 00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:55.439 I did 00:02:55.760 --> 00:02:57.120 my MROP 00:02:57.439 --> 00:03:01.760 in 2024 at Aravaipa Canyon in Arizona. 00:03:02.079 --> 00:03:02.879 And who was the weaver 00:03:03.040 --> 00:03:04.239 and about how many men would you say 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:05.280 were there? 00:03:05.060 --> 00:03:06.900 The Weaver was a wonderful man 00:03:07.140 --> 00:03:09.860 by the name of Giovanni Perez. 00:03:09.860 --> 00:03:10.099 And 00:03:10.579 --> 00:03:13.379 if I recall, Brian, I think there were about 00:03:13.660 --> 00:03:15.020 Thirty-two men there. 00:03:15.020 --> 00:03:16.300 You were also there. 00:03:16.300 --> 00:03:18.060 You and I met there, which 00:03:18.380 --> 00:03:18.940 I will 00:03:19.100 --> 00:03:20.300 always remember. 00:03:20.300 --> 00:03:20.460 And 00:03:20.860 --> 00:03:24.380 fortunately, our paths have crossed numerous times since then. 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:24.520 Absolutely. 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:26.920 I have a wonderful memory of you helping me set up the 00:03:27.160 --> 00:03:29.080 group photo at the end of the MROP. 00:03:29.320 --> 00:03:29.480 And 00:03:29.640 --> 00:03:31.480 Brian, I do want to add that I 00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:33.880 had the opportunity to return to Aravaipa 00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:35.640 last week, in fact. 00:03:35.700 --> 00:03:38.740 For a whole week for another Illuman retreat. 00:03:38.740 --> 00:03:40.820 And in fact, I slept in a tent there 00:03:40.980 --> 00:03:45.860 this time, and I pitched my tent on the same spot where that huge 00:03:46.340 --> 00:03:49.060 Temporary tent was set up for the MROP 00:03:49.220 --> 00:03:50.660 in twenty-twenty four. 00:03:50.980 --> 00:03:53.380 Also, right where the sacred space was. 00:03:53.380 --> 00:03:54.180 Exactly. 00:03:54.180 --> 00:03:55.700 Beautiful, that's wonderful. 00:03:55.700 --> 00:03:59.540 I always say, too, that Aravaipa is sort of like a Mecca. 00:03:59.060 --> 00:04:01.060 For men in Illuman, those that have been there 00:04:01.299 --> 00:04:03.299 really hold that place special to them and 00:04:03.459 --> 00:04:04.819 want to make a pilgrimage there. 00:04:05.140 --> 00:04:06.980 It is indeed a very special place. 00:04:06.980 --> 00:04:12.019 And when I went back this time, honestly, I can say I felt like I was going home. 00:04:11.640 --> 00:04:16.919 So when you think back to the weekend of your MROP, what's the the first image that comes forth for you? 00:04:17.400 --> 00:04:18.280 Wow. 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:20.199 It's hard to choose one. 00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:21.639 There are so many. 00:04:21.699 --> 00:04:22.900 Well, I think 00:04:23.139 --> 00:04:25.780 perhaps the strongest memory I have, 00:04:26.099 --> 00:04:28.180 image that I have, actually, is 00:04:28.819 --> 00:04:31.860 helping to perform one of the rituals. 00:04:31.340 --> 00:04:34.140 It was in the second night of the retreat. 00:04:34.140 --> 00:04:34.780 The first day 00:04:35.020 --> 00:04:40.380 we had been told that they were looking for eight volunteers for a ritual. 00:04:40.100 --> 00:04:46.420 The next day, and it was a ritual that I won't go into detail about it, it was a ritual that had to do with grief. 00:04:46.420 --> 00:04:48.820 And I had gone to the MROP 00:04:48.980 --> 00:04:49.940 feeling like 00:04:50.139 --> 00:04:52.380 I didn't know what I was getting into. 00:04:52.380 --> 00:04:58.540 I didn't have a lot of anxiety about it, but I just had no idea what my level of comfort was. 00:04:58.540 --> 00:04:59.580 But I did go 00:04:59.820 --> 00:05:03.340 with the commitment that I was going to be all in. 00:05:03.220 --> 00:05:03.540 So 00:05:03.780 --> 00:05:08.340 when they called for volunteers, I raised my hand right away. 00:05:08.340 --> 00:05:10.900 And I think the single strongest 00:05:11.620 --> 00:05:14.340 Memory that I have from my MROP 00:05:14.979 --> 00:05:15.300 was 00:05:15.460 --> 00:05:20.180 that I've been a lifelong doer and achiever. 00:05:19.980 --> 00:05:20.540 For good 00:05:20.860 --> 00:05:22.620 and for ill. 00:05:22.620 --> 00:05:23.260 And so 00:05:23.580 --> 00:05:23.900 when 00:05:24.540 --> 00:05:25.820 we had practiced 00:05:26.700 --> 00:05:30.700 that first evening for the ritual that we were going to do the next day. 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:31.040 And immediately 00:05:31.200 --> 00:05:32.880 my performance anxieties 00:05:33.200 --> 00:05:35.120 started coming to the surface. 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:36.960 And the two trainers said 00:05:37.200 --> 00:05:37.840 something that 00:05:39.200 --> 00:05:42.960 is now written on my heart, and that is, they said 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:43.440 , 00:05:43.820 --> 00:05:50.460 Brothers, what you're doing here, what you will be doing here tomorrow, is not performance, it's prayer. 00:05:50.460 --> 00:05:52.300 And that's become a theme of my life 00:05:52.540 --> 00:05:54.940 throughout that whole MROP 00:05:56.340 --> 00:05:58.020 So, this memory of 00:05:58.259 --> 00:05:58.979 looking at 00:05:59.139 --> 00:06:09.379 my presence and what I was doing in the MROP, not only in that ritual, but the whole five days, looking at that as prayer, was just really profound. 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:11.120 And I can say at this point in my life 00:06:11.440 --> 00:06:11.680 that 00:06:12.400 --> 00:06:14.080 performance anxiety, that need 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:15.520 essentially, I guess, to 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:16.879 impress, which 00:06:17.039 --> 00:06:17.360 frankly 00:06:17.520 --> 00:06:19.039 I don't like. 00:06:18.539 --> 00:06:19.419 But it's there 00:06:19.659 --> 00:06:21.740 and it always pops up. 00:06:21.740 --> 00:06:25.900 When that comes up, I just begin to think what I'm doing of 00:06:26.379 --> 00:06:27.900 as prayer. 00:06:27.539 --> 00:06:29.220 Yeah, thank you for sharing that. 00:06:29.220 --> 00:06:34.340 Now thinking back to the weekend as a whole, how would you characterize the experience generally? 00:06:34.979 --> 00:06:36.099 Well, I think 00:06:36.419 --> 00:06:39.300 one of the things that was really important to me is 00:06:39.460 --> 00:06:40.419 I had spent 00:06:41.020 --> 00:06:41.900 Certainly, my 00:06:42.220 --> 00:06:43.500 most of my work life 00:06:43.740 --> 00:06:46.140 pretty much living in my head. 00:06:46.140 --> 00:06:46.460 And 00:06:46.620 --> 00:06:47.900 yet, I also 00:06:48.220 --> 00:06:48.540 had 00:06:48.860 --> 00:06:52.220 strong spiritual inclinations. 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:52.160 Often 00:06:52.400 --> 00:06:56.000 didn't act on them in any way other than my head. 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:56.960 Though through the years 00:06:57.120 --> 00:06:58.960 I would have, I did have 00:06:59.440 --> 00:07:03.760 numerous experiences of what you might call intimations of God. 00:07:03.520 --> 00:07:07.520 But, you know, really not a lot of emphasis on experience. 00:07:07.520 --> 00:07:12.800 And in the MROP, it's very experience focused. 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:13.000 And 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:13.720 I think 00:07:13.880 --> 00:07:14.200 also 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:15.000 particularly 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:16.760 that training for the ritual 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:18.120 that first night 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:18.600 where 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:22.120 we were told to think of this as prayer. 00:07:21.639 --> 00:07:27.560 Somehow, something deep inside me got the message, You're here to experience this. 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:29.320 You're here to experience God. 00:07:29.320 --> 00:07:30.759 You're here to experience 00:07:31.300 --> 00:07:32.820 connection with 00:07:33.139 --> 00:07:34.020 other men 00:07:34.340 --> 00:07:37.460 and even connection to people in my life that 00:07:37.860 --> 00:07:40.500 weren't physically present there. 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:40.480 So 00:07:40.640 --> 00:07:41.520 I think that 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:45.440 that certainly was a huge part of my experience there of 00:07:45.760 --> 00:07:47.920 just to let myself move into 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:49.920 what some people call a 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:51.360 three-centered awareness 00:07:51.520 --> 00:07:52.160 that was 00:07:52.860 --> 00:07:59.259 It was very much bodily, it was also emotional, and it was also the head, but 00:07:59.819 --> 00:08:02.860 all of it was experience-oriented. 00:08:02.520 --> 00:08:02.760 And 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:05.080 that's left a mark on me 00:08:05.400 --> 00:08:05.720 now 00:08:06.040 --> 00:08:06.760 ever since 00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:09.240 that I would say I continue to live 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:12.120 on a daily basis. 00:08:11.620 --> 00:08:20.580 So I'd like to ask you to share maybe an experience from the rites or maybe even an encounter that you had with another man there, so long as it isn't too personal or confidential. 00:08:20.039 --> 00:08:22.199 Well, one thing that comes to mind is 00:08:22.440 --> 00:08:26.919 we spent a day in the wilderness, which is standard in the men's rites of passage. 00:08:26.919 --> 00:08:29.400 I I didn't know that in advance. 00:08:29.020 --> 00:08:33.100 But we were sent out into the desert in teams, in in pairs. 00:08:33.100 --> 00:08:38.300 And so I had a partner, and we were instructed not to talk to each other 00:08:38.419 --> 00:08:41.380 And we were walking along, and he and I 00:08:41.620 --> 00:08:42.740 silently 00:08:42.979 --> 00:08:43.940 would each 00:08:44.259 --> 00:08:49.300 point out with our walking sticks something that really meant something to us. 00:08:48.839 --> 00:08:51.959 And I remember very clearly walking along 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:55.240 I think he had pointed out an unusual cactus 00:08:56.040 --> 00:08:57.880 typical for Aravaipa, 00:08:58.199 --> 00:08:58.680 the high 00:08:58.839 --> 00:09:01.399 mountain desert there in the Sonora. 00:09:00.660 --> 00:09:01.460 So then I 00:09:01.620 --> 00:09:13.060 as I was walking along, I was just looking at the rock formations which are all over the place, the various plants, the aridness, and yet the incredible contrast between things that were green and 00:09:13.620 --> 00:09:17.220 and most things just being totally dry and and arid. 00:09:17.220 --> 00:09:19.060 And we got to this one rock face 00:09:19.220 --> 00:09:28.019 where there was a plant growing at the top of a sort of a rock, a rock cliff, and it was right at the at the edge, at the top. 00:09:28.100 --> 00:09:30.660 And there was a root that was growing down. 00:09:30.660 --> 00:09:31.780 It grew down through 00:09:31.940 --> 00:09:35.060 some cracks that you could see, and you could see every now and then 00:09:35.220 --> 00:09:36.180 it had sent the 00:09:36.340 --> 00:09:37.860 side roots off 00:09:38.180 --> 00:09:38.500 into 00:09:39.300 --> 00:09:40.820 the rock. 00:09:40.339 --> 00:09:43.860 And I remember just being struck with that, and it felt 00:09:44.019 --> 00:09:45.060 in many ways 00:09:45.380 --> 00:09:46.019 to me 00:09:46.339 --> 00:09:46.579 like 00:09:47.060 --> 00:09:50.740 I was feeling when I came to Aravaipa, because I came there 00:09:51.060 --> 00:09:54.500 with a good deal of pain, a good deal of pain in my life. 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:56.279 And to see this plant there 00:09:56.680 --> 00:09:59.000 surviving in that way, and in fact 00:09:59.160 --> 00:10:01.160 flourishing in what seemed like 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:04.040 almost impossible circumstances 00:10:04.140 --> 00:10:08.300 And to be able to witness that with, you know, another person, that 00:10:08.620 --> 00:10:10.860 was just incredibly meaningful. 00:10:10.860 --> 00:10:11.660 That's beautiful. 00:10:11.660 --> 00:10:12.860 Thank you. 00:10:12.200 --> 00:10:13.480 Now let me take you back to 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:14.680 the period that 00:10:14.920 --> 00:10:16.680 before you signed up for the rites. 00:10:16.680 --> 00:10:18.600 What were the circumstances in your life? 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:23.720 What was going on in your life that informed your decision to register for the rites? 00:10:23.560 --> 00:10:25.480 Brian, I'll try to be brief on this. 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:28.760 I have to admit, I feel like there was so much that led up to that that 00:10:29.640 --> 00:10:35.160 I could probably talk on all day, but I'll try to observe the Illuman Council 00:10:35.700 --> 00:10:39.700 Advice of being lean of speech. 00:10:39.700 --> 00:10:40.100 Yeah, 00:10:40.420 --> 00:10:40.740 so 00:10:41.060 --> 00:10:41.380 I 00:10:41.700 --> 00:10:43.380 went into a line of work 00:10:43.520 --> 00:10:43.760 That 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:50.800 really allowed me to live out, and again, I'd say for good and for ill, my urge to do things 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:55.040 and to be acknowledged, to get esteem. 00:10:54.740 --> 00:10:54.900 Or 00:10:55.060 --> 00:11:02.740 for doing things, I was in a high-pressured research university, and so there was just this constant pressure to publish 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:06.240 And then if you publish, then you get lots of positive feedback. 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:07.120 If you don't, then 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:09.120 you're just kind of a dud. 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:10.960 And so I had really 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:15.200 I had gotten into a habit for many years of overworking. 00:11:14.560 --> 00:11:17.920 I had begun to treat my body as though it was a machine. 00:11:17.920 --> 00:11:23.440 I mean, I could stay up all night if I needed to to prepare, you know, a paper or something like that, because 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:28.160 I'd begun to build my sense of self around what I did. 00:11:27.740 --> 00:11:29.900 Which, you know, looking back now, I can just see 00:11:30.220 --> 00:11:32.380 that's such a false foundation. 00:11:32.380 --> 00:11:32.700 But 00:11:33.340 --> 00:11:33.660 so 00:11:33.980 --> 00:11:34.620 I was 00:11:34.940 --> 00:11:37.420 as part of my work for the university 00:11:37.740 --> 00:11:38.700 My wife and I 00:11:38.940 --> 00:11:44.940 lived in Africa for six years, and I was running a major project for my university. 00:11:44.940 --> 00:11:45.500 It was 00:11:45.660 --> 00:11:46.300 Funded by the U. 00:11:46.300 --> 00:11:46.460 S. 00:11:46.460 --> 00:11:51.420 Government, we were helping to train the next generation of agricultural scientists for that country. 00:11:51.420 --> 00:11:53.580 It seemed like incredibly important work. 00:11:53.580 --> 00:11:55.500 I absolutely loved it, and 00:11:56.300 --> 00:11:59.260 I was just working myself to a frazzle. 00:11:58.740 --> 00:11:59.700 And during that time 00:11:59.860 --> 00:12:01.380 I flew back to the US 00:12:01.540 --> 00:12:02.820 for a trip, just 00:12:03.060 --> 00:12:03.780 four days. 00:12:03.780 --> 00:12:03.860 So 00:12:04.180 --> 00:12:06.180 my wife stayed in Tanzania. 00:12:06.180 --> 00:12:08.980 I had a heart attack the next morning, a major heart attack 00:12:09.220 --> 00:12:10.180 the next morning 00:12:10.420 --> 00:12:11.940 in the US. 00:12:11.920 --> 00:12:17.360 Was able to communicate with my wife, and she got in a plane, and so she joined me within 24 hours. 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:17.680 But 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:22.320 there were a number of things that happened around that time that just really caught my attention. 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:23.360 And one of the ones 00:12:23.540 --> 00:12:25.540 It really sticks in my mind and heart 00:12:25.700 --> 00:12:26.660 is the next day. 00:12:26.660 --> 00:12:28.180 I was sitting up in bed, and 00:12:28.980 --> 00:12:30.019 one of our daughters 00:12:30.180 --> 00:12:31.300 and her husband 00:12:31.339 --> 00:12:34.540 Showed up in the hospital room, and I was sitting up in bed 00:12:34.699 --> 00:12:35.019 actually 00:12:35.259 --> 00:12:39.819 emailing my co-workers in Tanzania and Ohio. 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:44.280 and they came into the room and they expected there would be tubes all over me and everything else. 00:12:44.280 --> 00:12:44.440 There 00:12:44.920 --> 00:12:45.640 there I was 00:12:45.800 --> 00:12:47.240 sitting up in bed 00:12:47.480 --> 00:12:47.640 and 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:48.600 I just 00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:52.840 I don't remember what they said at the time, but they seemed surprised. 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:55.720 And so I went into cardiac rehab. 00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:59.720 And eventually, after a couple of months, we went back to Tanzania 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:00.760 another 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:01.720 year. 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:01.960 But 00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:06.360 It took me years, Brian, after that experience 00:13:06.680 --> 00:13:07.640 to realize 00:13:07.880 --> 00:13:08.200 that 00:13:08.760 --> 00:13:13.480 I was building my life on a foundation that was not good for me or anybody else. 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:15.000 It wasn't good for my family. 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:16.600 It wasn't good for my life. 00:13:16.740 --> 00:13:19.540 No, it probably wasn't even good for my students. 00:13:19.540 --> 00:13:22.340 And then I also recall getting feedback from 00:13:22.660 --> 00:13:23.860 my children that 00:13:24.100 --> 00:13:25.380 I really worked too much. 00:13:25.620 --> 00:13:26.020 And I 00:13:26.260 --> 00:13:27.060 kind of. 00:13:27.060 --> 00:13:28.660 I kinda I really pushed back at that. 00:13:28.820 --> 00:13:30.500 I thought I had done my job. 00:13:30.500 --> 00:13:32.980 I had earned income for the family. 00:13:32.980 --> 00:13:35.220 We had a stable situation 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:39.720 It was just hard for me to see the flaws in what I was doing. 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:41.560 So that led me eventually 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:42.040 into 00:13:43.020 --> 00:13:46.060 Joining a group for families 00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:48.700 where families are facing challenges. 00:13:48.700 --> 00:13:48.940 And 00:13:49.260 --> 00:13:50.940 that began to open me up. 00:13:50.940 --> 00:13:53.260 I began to read Richard Rohr. 00:13:52.759 --> 00:13:55.880 I read several of his books, including Adam's Return from 00:13:56.040 --> 00:13:59.959 Wild Man to Wise Man, Breathing Underwater, I think, and the 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:01.880 Universal Christ. 00:14:02.259 --> 00:14:04.019 There was a message in Richard Rohr 00:14:04.579 --> 00:14:05.220 that really 00:14:05.380 --> 00:14:10.180 stuck with me, and I probably think about it just about every day, even now, and that is 00:14:10.500 --> 00:14:13.300 the idea that pain that is not transformed 00:14:13.820 --> 00:14:15.420 is transmitted. 00:14:15.420 --> 00:14:18.460 I never wanted to transmit my pain. 00:14:18.780 --> 00:14:25.020 And I haven't really gone into what I think caused my pain, what caused me to overwork. 00:14:24.540 --> 00:14:25.820 In a nutshell, it basically 00:14:25.980 --> 00:14:26.540 came down to 00:14:26.700 --> 00:14:31.180 I grew up in a loving family, but I was the middle kid of seven kids. 00:14:31.180 --> 00:14:34.300 And I noticed growing up, I mean, I began to realize that 00:14:34.620 --> 00:14:34.779 often 00:14:34.940 --> 00:14:35.019 feel 00:14:35.180 --> 00:14:35.260 that 00:14:35.420 --> 00:14:36.300 despite the fact that 00:14:36.700 --> 00:14:38.700 my family was loving. 00:14:38.060 --> 00:14:44.220 the dinner table was so noisy and boisterous that I often felt like I wasn't seen and heard. 00:14:44.220 --> 00:14:45.260 And I learned that 00:14:45.420 --> 00:14:45.660 I was 00:14:45.900 --> 00:14:46.300 at a young 00:14:46.460 --> 00:14:47.020 very young age 00:14:47.180 --> 00:14:49.740 that I could get attention by making things. 00:14:49.740 --> 00:14:50.060 And so 00:14:50.700 --> 00:14:52.300 I became a maker. 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:58.240 And so, you know, that wasn't the only thing, but I think that was the major thing in creating the pain that I then 00:14:58.400 --> 00:14:58.720 was 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:00.720 transmitting to other people. 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:01.040 And so 00:15:01.280 --> 00:15:02.240 my wife and I 00:15:02.640 --> 00:15:06.080 actually were doing some therapy after the heart attack. 00:15:05.800 --> 00:15:08.360 And I mentioned to the therapist 00:15:08.680 --> 00:15:16.280 that the pain that I was feeling felt to me like it was something deeper than ordinary therapy can deal with. 00:15:16.280 --> 00:15:17.640 I remember saying that 00:15:17.920 --> 00:15:20.560 I feel my pain in my spirit. 00:15:20.560 --> 00:15:23.680 And I didn't even quite know what I meant by spirit. 00:15:23.680 --> 00:15:23.920 But 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:26.079 the therapist, who was 00:15:26.319 --> 00:15:26.880 very good 00:15:27.040 --> 00:15:27.360 , 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:28.880 listened and said, 00:15:29.040 --> 00:15:30.720 Well, you know, she said 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:33.800 My husband has been working with Richard Rohr 00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:35.640 for years, and he has 00:15:35.800 --> 00:15:37.160 and there's an organization that 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:39.640 Richard Rohr had helped get started 00:15:39.620 --> 00:15:39.779 Called 00:15:39.940 --> 00:15:41.140 Illuman. 00:15:41.140 --> 00:15:42.980 Maybe you should check it out. 00:15:42.980 --> 00:15:45.860 So I went home and looked it up in the Internet, and 00:15:46.180 --> 00:15:49.940 wow, it it certainly looked like it could be something that I was 00:15:50.400 --> 00:15:51.840 interested in. 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:52.160 So 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:52.800 I 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:57.120 found out that there was a virtual Illuman Council that 00:15:57.440 --> 00:15:57.760 in 00:15:58.160 --> 00:16:00.240 the East Coast States. 00:15:59.640 --> 00:16:01.240 and that I could easily join. 00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:02.360 So I joined that 00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:02.920 and 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:07.560 then, you know, began to read about the men's rites of passage on the Illuman 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:08.680 website, then 00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:09.800 signed up for it 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:10.760 not very 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:11.320 much 00:16:11.560 --> 00:16:14.360 after I'd gotten that recommendation from the therapist. 00:16:14.740 --> 00:16:16.980 Thank you so much, Dave, for your story and 00:16:17.139 --> 00:16:18.660 for really detailing that. 00:16:18.660 --> 00:16:21.940 I think for you, you have a really strong sense that it was a journey. 00:16:22.259 --> 00:16:23.620 It was a period of events 00:16:24.180 --> 00:16:28.819 that took place over a course of, it sounds like a couple of years at least, that led you to the rites. 00:16:28.820 --> 00:16:30.420 You know, some guys don't have sort of 00:16:30.580 --> 00:16:30.900 that 00:16:31.220 --> 00:16:33.780 understanding of their experience, but that really is wonderful. 00:16:33.780 --> 00:16:37.460 It is a journey, and obviously it's a journey after the rites. 00:16:36.839 --> 00:16:47.160 Let me ask you though, when you did decide to register for the rites, and then you told your wife, maybe your spiritual director, a therapist, even your kids, how did they react to your decision? 00:16:46.640 --> 00:16:46.960 Well, 00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:48.560 gotta say, my wife was 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:49.680 was 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:51.440 was supportive. 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:51.840 She 00:16:52.160 --> 00:16:52.960 she has different 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:53.920 she has a different 00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:56.240 spiritual experience than I have. 00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:59.200 It's probably not something that she would do. 00:16:59.480 --> 00:16:59.800 But 00:17:00.040 --> 00:17:03.000 she was very supportive of me doing it. 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:06.199 The only thing I would say is, even in my work, 00:17:06.600 --> 00:17:08.040 my leadership work with a room 00:17:08.199 --> 00:17:10.839 in, I tend to overwork. 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:12.200 And 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:14.200 I keep telling myself, and 00:17:14.760 --> 00:17:16.760 I tell this to marry my wife, 00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:17.720 Illuman 00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:19.400 is here to help us become 00:17:19.800 --> 00:17:21.320 better men. 00:17:20.740 --> 00:17:27.380 And I don't want to do my work in Illuman in a way that, you know, that would harm our relationship in any way. 00:17:27.380 --> 00:17:31.220 Fortunately, I feel like we've been able to keep those things into balance. 00:17:31.220 --> 00:17:32.740 She helps me keep those things into 00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:33.940 balance. 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:35.080 And actually, we both help 00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:35.320 to 00:17:35.560 --> 00:17:38.040 keep each other in balance, I would say. 00:17:38.040 --> 00:17:38.680 But she's 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:40.040 been very supportive. 00:17:40.520 --> 00:17:44.200 You know, Aero Vipa is a kind of a remote location for the men's rites of passage. 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:47.320 So whoever comes to the rites, whether they fly in or drive in 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:51.679 Even if you're flying, you have to take a you know, a trip from probably the Phoenix airport. 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:47.800 , 00:17:51.679 --> 00:17:56.480 And then even when you come off the main road, it's another half hour, forty-five minutes to get back to where the 00:17:56.639 --> 00:17:59.039 ranch is, where the rites are. 00:17:58.540 --> 00:17:59.580 And as you come in, 00:17:59.820 --> 00:18:02.380 there's this wonderful creek, Aravaipa Creek, that 00:18:02.620 --> 00:18:04.060 kind of forms a boundary. 00:18:04.060 --> 00:18:09.900 And so when you go across that, you really, you know, you really can see that as a threshold into sacred space. 00:18:09.900 --> 00:18:12.700 So I'm taking you back to that moment to ask you. 00:18:12.700 --> 00:18:17.980 When you arrived at Aravaipa and began the rites, was there something you were hoping for? 00:18:17.980 --> 00:18:20.700 Was there something you wanted to be initiated into? 00:18:20.900 --> 00:18:23.460 I absolutely knew I wanted to 00:18:23.780 --> 00:18:23.940 new 00:18:24.100 --> 00:18:25.380 experiences, new 00:18:25.620 --> 00:18:26.100 deep 00:18:26.260 --> 00:18:28.340 spiritual experiences. 00:18:28.340 --> 00:18:30.020 I didn't know what they were. 00:18:30.020 --> 00:18:33.620 And I can say, when we got to the edge of that creek 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:35.560 and I looked across, because 00:18:33.940 --> 00:18:34.260 , 00:18:35.800 --> 00:18:36.760 at the Ford 00:18:37.080 --> 00:18:37.480 it's 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:41.560 probably, I dunno, thirty five feet wide or something like that. 00:18:41.560 --> 00:18:45.960 Looked across the Ford, and there was Giovanni in a robe 00:18:46.519 --> 00:18:52.440 Swinging, I forget what you call those things that hold incense, the swinging incense 00:18:52.760 --> 00:18:58.279 and walking towards us, I felt like I was moving into a different world. 00:18:58.600 --> 00:19:00.279 Like I said, I had grown up in a 00:19:00.540 --> 00:19:01.740 in a Mennonite community 00:19:01.900 --> 00:19:02.140 which 00:19:02.300 --> 00:19:05.500 which I have a lot of respect for in many, many ways, but 00:19:05.740 --> 00:19:06.620 ritual was 00:19:06.940 --> 00:19:07.900 I should say 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:09.840 It was definitely not high 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:11.200 church. 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:13.840 And so we didn't have incense. 00:19:13.840 --> 00:19:15.200 We didn't, you know, our 00:19:15.520 --> 00:19:17.680 ministers didn't wear 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:21.120 different kind of garb or anything like that. 00:19:20.660 --> 00:19:23.540 So when I got there, in many, many ways, 00:19:23.860 --> 00:19:26.420 it was so different from what I'd grown up from. 00:19:26.420 --> 00:19:28.340 It was in this natural environment, 00:19:28.580 --> 00:19:30.020 the desert that looked 00:19:30.340 --> 00:19:30.660 very 00:19:31.679 --> 00:19:33.840 sort of surreal to begin with. 00:19:33.840 --> 00:19:36.559 Crossing that threshold for me, Brian, was 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:37.120 was 00:19:37.679 --> 00:19:39.360 really a deep experience. 00:19:39.360 --> 00:19:41.760 Again, it's one of those things. 00:19:41.140 --> 00:19:42.420 I'll never forget. 00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:51.780 And last week, at the retreat that I was at at Aravaipa Canyon, we used that as a threshold again, and we crossed that creek. 00:19:51.300 --> 00:19:51.860 again. 00:19:51.860 --> 00:19:52.020 So 00:19:52.340 --> 00:19:52.580 and 00:19:52.740 --> 00:19:54.340 that was a wonderful memory for me. 00:19:54.660 --> 00:20:00.260 You said earlier that you didn't have a lot of anxiety about the the MROP or participate in the MROP. 00:20:00.260 --> 00:20:00.420 But 00:20:00.820 --> 00:20:01.460 as you actually 00:20:01.620 --> 00:20:05.860 once you arrived there and you crossed uh the creek and headed towards the camp, 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:10.080 Was there anything you were fearing, or did you have anything that you were concerned about? 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:18.720 Well, I definitely had this sense that I was probably entering into an experience that would be sort of visceral. 00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:18.600 would 00:20:18.840 --> 00:20:19.960 be somatic 00:20:20.120 --> 00:20:23.480 in a way that I hadn't experienced before. 00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:27.880 And I can't say exactly why, but I was looking forward to that, and yet 00:20:28.120 --> 00:20:28.440 also 00:20:29.019 --> 00:20:29.580 Definitely 00:20:29.899 --> 00:20:30.460 had some 00:20:30.620 --> 00:20:32.380 anxiety about that 00:20:33.019 --> 00:20:34.299 simply because 00:20:35.899 --> 00:20:38.940 it was a new kind of experience for me. 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:38.679 I had 00:20:38.840 --> 00:20:39.720 also heard that 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:42.600 there's drumming that goes on there. 00:20:42.600 --> 00:20:42.760 And 00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:45.159 I grew up in an environment where we 00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:48.440 where rhythm was really looked down on. 00:20:48.320 --> 00:20:49.840 potentially evil. 00:20:49.840 --> 00:20:54.160 And I loved the idea of drumming, but frankly, I'd really never done it. 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:54.320 So 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:57.360 I just thought, you know, wow, am I going to end up feeling 00:20:57.740 --> 00:21:00.540 Either like a fool or a fish out of water. 00:21:00.540 --> 00:21:00.860 And 00:21:02.380 --> 00:21:03.580 it was that advice 00:21:03.740 --> 00:21:04.860 that first night 00:21:05.180 --> 00:21:06.780 to think of it as prayer 00:21:06.940 --> 00:21:09.340 that just helped me move out of that. 00:21:09.340 --> 00:21:10.460 And from then on 00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:12.020 I can say, really, 00:21:12.580 --> 00:21:14.100 there was no anxiety. 00:21:14.500 --> 00:21:16.740 I just really felt engaged. 00:21:16.740 --> 00:21:18.660 I felt engaged. 00:21:18.700 --> 00:21:18.940 With 00:21:19.260 --> 00:21:22.620 the process, with the others that were there, with 00:21:22.780 --> 00:21:25.980 the weaver and others that were leading it, and also 00:21:26.220 --> 00:21:26.540 with 00:21:27.260 --> 00:21:30.460 something way beyond the divine. 00:21:30.100 --> 00:21:30.740 The rites is 00:21:30.899 --> 00:21:31.779 quite an experience. 00:21:31.779 --> 00:21:34.980 It takes place over the parts of five days, four nights that you're there. 00:21:34.980 --> 00:21:36.580 It's a kind of a journey of descent. 00:21:36.580 --> 00:21:39.139 There's lots of ritual and experiences. 00:21:39.139 --> 00:21:41.539 But eventually it does come to a close. 00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:47.720 How did you feel immediately afterwards, upon leaving Aravaipa and just completing the rites? 00:21:48.280 --> 00:21:54.760 The one thing I knew was that I had had experiences there that I wanted to have them continue. 00:21:54.660 --> 00:21:57.220 I just really, really knew that. 00:21:57.220 --> 00:21:58.580 I was in a small group, 00:21:58.900 --> 00:22:00.340 a council, there 00:22:00.580 --> 00:22:02.900 at Aravaipa. 00:22:02.320 --> 00:22:05.040 And that was not a great experience, frankly. 00:22:05.040 --> 00:22:11.600 I won't go into the details about what happened there, but we didn't cohere and we didn't meet afterwards. 00:22:11.280 --> 00:22:11.600 But 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:12.560 I really 00:22:12.800 --> 00:22:13.360 wanted it 00:22:13.520 --> 00:22:14.560 to continue. 00:22:14.560 --> 00:22:15.200 So I 00:22:15.360 --> 00:22:17.440 remember that we were told at the end 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:19.760 before we disbanded. 00:22:19.540 --> 00:22:20.820 That it was really important 00:22:21.140 --> 00:22:21.460 to 00:22:21.620 --> 00:22:23.940 have a daily practice of some kind. 00:22:23.940 --> 00:22:24.100 And 00:22:24.260 --> 00:22:28.740 I hadn't had a daily contemplative practice. 00:22:28.740 --> 00:22:29.700 And so I 00:22:29.860 --> 00:22:30.740 started that 00:22:30.980 --> 00:22:33.380 very shortly after I got back. 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:38.520 And also, Brian, I remember toward the end, I think probably right at the end, you 00:22:38.840 --> 00:22:43.160 talking about choosing presence or practicing presence. 00:22:43.040 --> 00:22:45.120 That you've been working with, which is 00:22:45.760 --> 00:22:47.520 really a very simple way 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:48.880 of just sort of 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:50.000 checking in 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:50.880 in a 00:22:51.120 --> 00:22:53.120 contemplative way every morning. 00:22:53.120 --> 00:22:54.640 I started doing that 00:22:54.919 --> 00:23:01.000 Within a couple of weeks after leaving Aravaipa, and I continue it to this day. 00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:01.320 And 00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:03.240 it's really, really 00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:03.880 been 00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:05.799 meaningful. 00:23:05.260 --> 00:23:09.740 And something else I would share is, I had joined another men's group. 00:23:09.740 --> 00:23:12.380 Like I said, it was basically for men that 00:23:12.620 --> 00:23:14.299 have family issues. 00:23:14.299 --> 00:23:16.299 So, in that group, 00:23:16.120 --> 00:23:22.200 When I got back, they wanted to know about this men's rites of passage, which I had told them in advance I was 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:23.000 going to 00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:24.760 participate in. 00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:26.840 And so I didn't go into much detail, but 00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:29.240 I probably talked for two or three minutes and 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:32.519 emphasized the deep experiences that 00:23:32.760 --> 00:23:34.440 I had had there. 00:23:34.060 --> 00:23:35.260 A friend of mine, or actually 00:23:35.420 --> 00:23:35.500 by 00:23:35.660 --> 00:23:39.420 at that point, he was just a mere acquaintance because I didn't know him very well. 00:23:39.420 --> 00:23:41.580 He came to me afterwards and he said, 00:23:41.740 --> 00:23:42.460 Tell me 00:23:42.780 --> 00:23:43.420 more about 00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:44.220 this. 00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:47.340 What is this men's rites of passage? 00:23:47.500 --> 00:23:47.820 And 00:23:48.059 --> 00:23:55.740 he's told me numerous times since then, in that two or three minutes where I shared with this men's group, he said, Dave, he said, 00:23:55.980 --> 00:23:56.140 you 00:23:56.380 --> 00:23:57.980 glowed. 00:23:57.440 --> 00:23:57.760 He said 00:23:57.919 --> 00:23:59.360 you just glowed. 00:23:59.519 --> 00:23:59.919 He said 00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:04.159 he really decided there must be something there and he 00:24:04.639 --> 00:24:05.279 wanted to do 00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:06.480 it. 00:24:06.019 --> 00:24:06.340 So 00:24:06.659 --> 00:24:09.779 I'd say I came back with a lot of energy. 00:24:09.779 --> 00:24:11.860 I was retired at that point, which 00:24:12.260 --> 00:24:14.419 a lot of men aren't when they do this. 00:24:14.419 --> 00:24:16.580 And so they have to go back to work life. 00:24:16.580 --> 00:24:18.820 They may have a different experience. 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:19.480 But for me, 00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:25.080 having my schedule fairly free, I was sure I wanted it to continue. 00:24:25.080 --> 00:24:26.840 And it has in various ways. 00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:28.480 Thank you for that. 00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:30.480 I really appreciate what you shared on 00:24:30.639 --> 00:24:31.519 multiple levels. 00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:33.279 And I've talked to many men 00:24:33.600 --> 00:24:34.320 so far about 00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:35.840 these rites of passage. 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:39.840 I get a really clear picture of what many of them came away from the rice 00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:40.400 with. 00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:40.560 And 00:24:40.800 --> 00:24:42.320 among those things, which are 00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:47.840 find a community of men and participate in that community, spend more time in nature. 00:24:47.760 --> 00:24:48.720 And the third is always 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:50.880 find and develop a contemplative practice. 00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:52.799 I think that's a real important thing. 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:56.159 So, yeah, I'm really glad that that came through for you. 00:24:55.640 --> 00:25:00.120 Let me ask you about what's changed in your life in the last couple of years since Making the Rise. 00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:04.360 I'm thinking practically, spiritually, relationally. 00:25:04.419 --> 00:25:06.419 Thanks for that question, Brian. 00:25:06.740 --> 00:25:08.100 Well, I would say 00:25:08.660 --> 00:25:10.820 and this is just me reporting 00:25:11.140 --> 00:25:11.700 you know, it 00:25:11.860 --> 00:25:14.179 the proof really has to come from 00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:18.000 what actually happens in my life, and others could tell this story 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:20.320 more objectively than I could. 00:25:20.320 --> 00:25:24.640 But I would say I'm much more in touch with my own grief. 00:25:24.140 --> 00:25:27.820 I think I pretty much denied pain and grief in my life. 00:25:27.820 --> 00:25:29.900 I'm much more in touch with my body. 00:25:29.900 --> 00:25:30.140 I 00:25:30.540 --> 00:25:30.780 take 00:25:31.100 --> 00:25:33.180 much better care of my body 00:25:33.500 --> 00:25:36.700 in multiple ways, including my diet. 00:25:36.320 --> 00:25:38.160 I would say I have a much deeper 00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:41.840 appreciation for the full range of emotions. 00:25:41.840 --> 00:25:44.400 And in fact, there are there are a lot of ideas and 00:25:45.320 --> 00:25:47.640 views of the world, even some therapies that 00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:53.880 largely encourage people to sort of treat your emotions as something that gets in the way. 00:25:53.419 --> 00:25:55.100 I no longer see it that way. 00:25:55.100 --> 00:25:56.620 I've come to see even 00:25:56.860 --> 00:26:00.860 what we might call the negative emotions and the anger and fear and 00:26:01.419 --> 00:26:02.940 and shame and so on. 00:26:03.100 --> 00:26:05.740 Even those are portals for personal 00:26:05.900 --> 00:26:06.780 growth. 00:26:07.020 --> 00:26:08.299 Richard Rohr has a 00:26:08.539 --> 00:26:09.500 lovely saying 00:26:09.660 --> 00:26:10.299 about how 00:26:10.539 --> 00:26:12.860 there are two major teachers in our lives 00:26:13.179 --> 00:26:13.340 great 00:26:13.580 --> 00:26:14.700 pain and great 00:26:15.020 --> 00:26:15.820 love. 00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:16.120 And so 00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.720 I've come to really appreciate the full range of emotions. 00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:23.800 I'd say I'm much more able to be vulnerable with other people. 00:26:23.800 --> 00:26:25.560 In fact, I welcome it. 00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:26.120 I 00:26:26.360 --> 00:26:29.160 literally find myself welcoming it. 00:26:29.220 --> 00:26:35.140 One could easily overshare, of course, but in the right setting, I find it easy to open up. 00:26:35.140 --> 00:26:35.380 And 00:26:35.620 --> 00:26:37.940 also, I'm more able to listen, 00:26:38.100 --> 00:26:39.940 able to listen from the heart. 00:26:39.940 --> 00:26:42.980 I'd say, first and foremost, with my wife. 00:26:42.519 --> 00:26:44.600 This is our fiftieth year of marriage. 00:26:44.600 --> 00:26:44.760 So 00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:48.039 we've managed to stay together all these years. 00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:49.639 We had a lot of good years. 00:26:49.639 --> 00:26:51.080 We had a lot of years that were 00:26:51.320 --> 00:26:52.760 where I can say for myself 00:26:52.919 --> 00:26:54.360 looking back. 00:26:53.840 --> 00:26:55.520 I was not a very good listener. 00:26:55.520 --> 00:26:58.000 I was too busy doing my own thing. 00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:02.559 Now, when my wife and I are talking, I lay my phone down. 00:27:02.040 --> 00:27:03.960 I always make myself do it. 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:05.000 And that's just one thing. 00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:09.240 Deep listening has to do with so much more than that. 00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:09.560 But 00:27:09.919 --> 00:27:12.559 Also, you know, able to speak from the heart. 00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:19.919 And another thing that has changed is, you know, I had thought I was going to be spending my retirement making furniture, which I love to do. 00:27:19.919 --> 00:27:21.760 I mean, I am a maker. 00:27:21.800 --> 00:27:22.120 And 00:27:22.280 --> 00:27:23.720 I love the design. 00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:24.360 I love to 00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:25.880 build. 00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:26.600 I just get 00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:30.680 what psychologists call flow from that experience. 00:27:30.140 --> 00:27:34.380 And during the pandemic, I should say it pretty much saved me. 00:27:34.380 --> 00:27:37.260 During the pandemic, I was building furniture 00:27:37.740 --> 00:27:41.100 while listening to audiobooks. 00:27:40.600 --> 00:27:44.200 Lots of them, including Richard Rohr, a lot of others. 00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:44.519 And 00:27:44.760 --> 00:27:45.080 so 00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:46.279 something 00:27:46.919 --> 00:27:48.919 that has changed now is 00:27:49.080 --> 00:27:50.279 while I still 00:27:50.600 --> 00:27:50.919 do 00:27:51.080 --> 00:27:52.360 woodworking 00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:52.840 I 00:27:53.159 --> 00:27:53.799 have really 00:27:53.960 --> 00:28:00.039 turned a lot more than I had even imagined I would to service, especially Illuman. 00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:02.840 I attended a second MROP, this one this time 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:05.639 going back as an initiator. 00:28:05.340 --> 00:28:12.940 In 2024, the same year I was initiated at Aravaipa, I returned to an MROP at Shrine Mont, Virginia. 00:28:12.940 --> 00:28:13.179 And 00:28:13.340 --> 00:28:15.660 while I was there, a friend of mine 00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:21.020 Who was attending for the first time, and I decided to start a local council. 00:28:21.020 --> 00:28:23.420 So we co-convene a bi-weekly, in-person 00:28:24.019 --> 00:28:26.500 Council that meets here in the Washington DC 00:28:26.659 --> 00:28:27.460 area. 00:28:27.460 --> 00:28:28.820 Also, then, last year 00:28:28.980 --> 00:28:33.940 I was asked to consider being the convener of the East Coast Collaborative. 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:37.440 That is the Illuman's chapter that runs up and down the East Coast. 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:38.000 This year 00:28:38.159 --> 00:28:40.080 I am the convener. 00:28:40.399 --> 00:28:44.080 Also, I am quite involved at my church. 00:28:43.640 --> 00:28:45.160 I would say that also 00:28:45.320 --> 00:28:48.440 has been a result of my work with Illuman. 00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:48.920 I feel 00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:53.320 connected not only to nature, not only to God, but also 00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:55.240 deeply connected to other 00:28:55.560 --> 00:28:56.520 people. 00:28:56.120 --> 00:28:56.440 And 00:28:56.760 --> 00:28:59.160 service has just become very important for me. 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:03.160 Let me ask you, what do you suspect your wife might say if she was asked 00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:05.320 what impact the rites had on Dave? 00:29:05.640 --> 00:29:06.680 You know, Matthew lied. 00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:08.920 I asked my wife that one time. 00:29:10.679 --> 00:29:10.919 And 00:29:11.080 --> 00:29:16.120 she gained the same answer that I've heard her giving since then when people have asked her that. 00:29:16.120 --> 00:29:16.760 Though I think she 00:29:16.919 --> 00:29:21.320 I I'm only aware of her having been asked that one or two other times beside the time 00:29:21.639 --> 00:29:22.200 Matthew 00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:23.320 did. 00:29:23.040 --> 00:29:27.280 But what she always says is, well, Dave was good to begin with. 00:29:27.280 --> 00:29:28.640 But she's being generous 00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:31.680 because there's no doubt about it. 00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:34.160 I mean, I tended to avoid conflict. 00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:36.240 I tended to shut down. 00:29:36.419 --> 00:29:40.660 I could also be quite reactive, you know, verbally at times. 00:29:40.660 --> 00:29:45.700 But, you know, after a couple of minutes, my tendency has always been to shut down. 00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:46.080 And one 00:29:46.399 --> 00:29:48.559 thing that I'm sure my wife would say 00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:50.320 that is a change that has occurred 00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:51.200 in me 00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:52.960 over the last couple of years 00:29:53.120 --> 00:29:53.440 is 00:29:53.600 --> 00:29:56.080 I don't shut down anymore. 00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:58.600 She never shut down to her credit. 00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:00.920 I don't shut down anymore. 00:30:01.080 --> 00:30:03.000 I think she would also say that I 00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:05.640 become a good listener. 00:30:05.100 --> 00:30:05.419 And 00:30:05.659 --> 00:30:10.860 also, I think she would probably say that I've listened to her life story in a way 00:30:11.019 --> 00:30:12.380 for good and for ill that 00:30:12.620 --> 00:30:14.299 formed her personality. 00:30:14.299 --> 00:30:16.299 I think she would say that I've 00:30:16.539 --> 00:30:19.100 become a much better listener. 00:30:18.840 --> 00:30:20.760 And finally, I think she would say 00:30:21.080 --> 00:30:21.400 that 00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:21.960 I 00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:23.640 become a much better 00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:25.320 partner as a parent 00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:26.039 with her. 00:30:26.600 --> 00:30:27.320 Let me ask you 00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:31.960 I don't know how much thought you gave to it before, but perhaps you have given it a lot of thought since your 00:30:32.120 --> 00:30:33.000 rites. 00:30:33.220 --> 00:30:34.500 How has your 00:30:34.820 --> 00:30:42.820 thinking around initiation, masculinity, the male journey through life, been impacted by this event? 00:30:42.700 --> 00:30:43.500 Oh, good 00:30:43.820 --> 00:30:44.460 question. 00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:46.540 You know, I went into the MROP 00:30:46.860 --> 00:30:49.100 not knowing what this initiation 00:30:49.260 --> 00:30:51.740 I mean, what was the initiation part of it, even though I had 00:30:51.900 --> 00:30:52.220 read 00:30:52.519 --> 00:30:56.200 The two books that Richard Rohr has written, that pretty much describes it. 00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:57.720 I had a hard time getting 00:30:57.960 --> 00:30:59.240 my head around 00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:00.440 that. 00:31:00.580 --> 00:31:10.260 Maybe partly because I had lived in Africa for 11 years, and while I didn't actually personally witness initiation rites, I was aware that that had been very much a tradition for many years there. 00:31:10.260 --> 00:31:11.220 And in some 00:31:11.740 --> 00:31:11.820 some 00:31:12.060 --> 00:31:14.140 communities, not very many, but some communities 00:31:14.380 --> 00:31:15.180 still practice. 00:31:15.180 --> 00:31:15.340 So 00:31:15.580 --> 00:31:19.900 I tended to see initiation as something that other people do 00:31:20.060 --> 00:31:21.340 under very, very different 00:31:21.580 --> 00:31:23.980 circumstances from my own. 00:31:23.840 --> 00:31:27.039 The way I've come to see it now, Brian, is 00:31:27.360 --> 00:31:30.960 we're constantly going through periods in our lives where we need 00:31:31.280 --> 00:31:32.880 initiation. 00:31:32.540 --> 00:31:33.100 I mean, I I 00:31:33.340 --> 00:31:33.420 last 00:31:33.580 --> 00:31:40.060 year I did the outer rites of passage, and I realized I really needed to be initiated into the last 00:31:40.820 --> 00:31:42.660 Phase of my life. 00:31:42.980 --> 00:31:43.300 Because 00:31:43.540 --> 00:31:49.940 when we do that, when we recognize where we are, you know, maybe on the timeline, but also maybe 00:31:50.100 --> 00:31:54.260 in terms of the emotional and spiritual things that are happening in our lives. 00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:54.880 When we 00:31:55.280 --> 00:32:00.240 we recognize that we're at a threshold and we're moving through what in Illuman and 00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:01.679 other settings is often called 00:32:01.840 --> 00:32:03.200 liminal space, that is 00:32:03.360 --> 00:32:03.919 times when 00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:04.400 things 00:32:04.560 --> 00:32:08.720 are really turned upside down and we don't know what the heck is going on 00:32:09.040 --> 00:32:10.960 and what direction to go. 00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:14.080 When we're at those points, it really, really 00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:16.160 helps a lot. 00:32:15.740 --> 00:32:18.060 To acknowledge that we're going through 00:32:18.380 --> 00:32:22.140 a difficult, complicated, even painful 00:32:22.460 --> 00:32:23.420 time. 00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:24.240 And I guess 00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:26.960 the final thing I would say about 00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:29.360 that question, Brian, is that 00:32:29.600 --> 00:32:33.120 I often think these days about how my life 00:32:33.800 --> 00:32:40.600 May have been changed if I had gone through the MROP, say, in my early twenties. 00:32:40.600 --> 00:32:41.240 I was 00:32:41.740 --> 00:32:44.540 24 when I got married, and you know, I'd go 00:32:44.700 --> 00:32:48.300 through a lot of things, my teenage years, my early twenties. 00:32:48.300 --> 00:32:50.380 So much was changing so 00:32:50.700 --> 00:32:52.060 fast. 00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:51.760 And 00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:52.799 one thing that 00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:53.279 really 00:32:53.600 --> 00:32:55.120 a memory I often have 00:32:55.279 --> 00:33:03.679 was how angry I got at the patriarchal models of families that was presented to me. 00:33:03.580 --> 00:33:03.660 back 00:33:03.900 --> 00:33:04.299 then. 00:33:04.299 --> 00:33:06.539 And it wasn't just in my community. 00:33:06.539 --> 00:33:09.340 It was pretty much across our society, though 00:33:09.580 --> 00:33:10.780 my own ethnic 00:33:10.940 --> 00:33:12.460 religious subcommunity has 00:33:12.700 --> 00:33:14.940 had its own variants of that. 00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:14.760 I 00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:16.840 felt really angry. 00:33:16.840 --> 00:33:20.679 I did not want to go and be, quote, the head of a home. 00:33:20.679 --> 00:33:23.159 You know, I wanted a partnership. 00:33:22.820 --> 00:33:23.700 And I think 00:33:23.860 --> 00:33:30.020 if I had had the opportunity to go through a rites of passage, I think it would have kind of 00:33:30.260 --> 00:33:32.100 grounded me. 00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:32.840 And I think I would have been 00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:33.720 been able to say 00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:34.280 something 00:33:34.600 --> 00:33:34.840 big 00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:36.360 is going on here. 00:33:36.360 --> 00:33:38.840 I would have reached out to other men. 00:33:38.840 --> 00:33:41.000 I think I would have begun to touch 00:33:41.240 --> 00:33:42.760 My pain as a man. 00:33:42.760 --> 00:33:43.400 I mean, you know, 00:33:43.640 --> 00:33:49.320 at that point, I hadn't experienced nearly as much pain as I did when I actually did the MROP. 00:33:49.320 --> 00:33:50.600 But I would have at least 00:33:50.840 --> 00:33:51.160 I 00:33:51.320 --> 00:33:54.440 had had some pain in my life, and I would have at least. 00:33:54.620 --> 00:33:55.660 begun to 00:33:55.980 --> 00:33:56.300 understand 00:33:56.620 --> 00:33:56.940 that 00:33:57.100 --> 00:33:59.980 pain is a major part of my life. 00:33:59.980 --> 00:34:00.060 Because 00:34:00.300 --> 00:34:01.820 as I look back, I think the 00:34:02.060 --> 00:34:03.420 denial of pain, even 00:34:03.980 --> 00:34:05.180 denial of death 00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:07.279 Those are forces that really 00:34:07.600 --> 00:34:09.679 had a huge impact on me. 00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:15.359 And initiation, the kind of initiation we do in the MROP, I think really prepares us for that. 00:34:16.039 --> 00:34:17.639 I also have to say, I think 00:34:18.119 --> 00:34:23.799 it's really difficult to do initiations, especially for young people in our society. 00:34:23.799 --> 00:34:27.960 Our society is so not oriented towards doing 00:34:28.279 --> 00:34:30.119 initiation rites. 00:34:30.040 --> 00:34:33.640 for anybody, but especially for young people. 00:34:33.640 --> 00:34:36.120 Culturally, it's a huge challenge, and yet 00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:38.440 I think it's so important. 00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:42.320 Thank you so much for your thoughtful responses to all of my questions. 00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:42.639 I 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:46.879 just really have one more question, and I think you are situated uniquely to kind of 00:34:47.120 --> 00:34:47.360 maybe 00:34:47.520 --> 00:34:48.960 offer some advice 00:34:49.120 --> 00:34:56.560 You've done a lot of intense work participating in the men's rites of passage, then doing the initiator program and then following that up with an elder rites experience. 00:34:56.560 --> 00:35:00.160 And I'll note that you are in another week going to go back to the Elders 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:00.800 Weave 00:35:01.040 --> 00:35:03.200 and help support that event. 00:35:03.220 --> 00:35:05.140 If a man about your age, 00:35:05.460 --> 00:35:13.380 retirement age, came to you and said, Dave, I'm thinking about doing a men's rites of passage, but he also is aware that there's an Elder Rites of Passage Now 00:35:13.539 --> 00:35:14.740 program. 00:35:14.599 --> 00:35:14.920 What 00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:17.560 kind of consultation would you give him? 00:35:17.560 --> 00:35:22.520 How would you help him discern whether or not to do a men's rites of passage or an elder rites of passage? 00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:23.240 Wow, good 00:35:23.480 --> 00:35:23.960 question. 00:35:23.960 --> 00:35:25.320 It's a hard one to answer 00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:28.200 because both of them, in my experience, are 00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:30.839 incredibly worthwhile. 00:35:30.839 --> 00:35:34.359 I think it would really depend on where the man is. 00:35:34.599 --> 00:35:35.560 If the man 00:35:36.200 --> 00:35:36.440 has 00:35:36.760 --> 00:35:39.079 the inclination, you know, 00:35:39.320 --> 00:35:46.040 at least a modest amount of energy, has things he still wants to get done, I think my recommendation 00:35:46.200 --> 00:35:47.720 in life, I mean, you know 00:35:47.960 --> 00:35:48.280 , 00:35:48.200 --> 00:35:50.840 Whether it's a hobby or travel 00:35:51.160 --> 00:35:52.520 or whatever it is, or 00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:56.280 wanting to enter into another relationship or something, 00:35:56.600 --> 00:35:58.360 my recommendation would be to do 00:35:58.520 --> 00:36:01.560 the men's rites of passage first, if you can. 00:36:01.540 --> 00:36:03.220 On the other hand, 00:36:03.380 --> 00:36:06.500 there are people that do do them in the opposite order. 00:36:06.500 --> 00:36:09.620 And in the end, I don't think it matters that much 00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:10.880 I would say this. 00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:12.320 The men's rites of passage 00:36:12.720 --> 00:36:17.440 opens a door to going back to earlier things in your life 00:36:17.680 --> 00:36:20.480 more than the elder rites of passages. 00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:20.720 And 00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:21.200 so 00:36:21.520 --> 00:36:26.880 if there are things you want to do, and also I would add, if you have some sense that 00:36:27.040 --> 00:36:29.520 there were wounds, some real wounds back 00:36:29.680 --> 00:36:31.600 there, it could have been small stuff or big stuff. 00:36:32.059 --> 00:36:32.220 It's 00:36:32.460 --> 00:36:37.500 it's basically what we call trauma these days, which we know does not just come from big events. 00:36:37.500 --> 00:36:37.660 It 00:36:37.900 --> 00:36:45.020 it's the sort of thing that we get obsessed about, that runs in our mind over and over again, that maybe keeps us awake at night. 00:36:44.640 --> 00:36:45.760 If a man has 00:36:46.160 --> 00:36:47.920 some of that pain from the past 00:36:48.240 --> 00:36:48.799 and is 00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:49.279 really 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:52.640 the sort of modestly big stuff that he wants to do left in his 00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:56.880 still in his life, I'd say do the men's rites of passage. 00:36:56.540 --> 00:37:03.180 On the other hand, if neither of those really apply, then I'd say do the Elder Rites of Passage. 00:37:03.180 --> 00:37:10.380 And I would say there's a fairly strong possibility that after doing the Elder Rites of Passage, you might say, wow, this was so good 00:37:10.640 --> 00:37:14.799 I now want to go back and do the men's rites of passage. 00:37:15.520 --> 00:37:18.400 The order is not all that critical. 00:37:18.260 --> 00:37:20.180 Brother, thank you so much for your time. 00:37:20.180 --> 00:37:24.340 I really appreciate your, again, your thoughtfulness, your vulnerability, 00:37:24.580 --> 00:37:27.380 your passion for this work and all that you've given to the Illuman 00:37:27.540 --> 00:37:28.660 community. 00:37:28.240 --> 00:37:29.760 It really, it really is amazing. 00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:29.920 And 00:37:30.720 --> 00:37:33.440 I've learned a lot by listening to you today. 00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:33.920 And so 00:37:34.080 --> 00:37:35.360 thank you so much. 00:37:35.680 --> 00:37:36.640 Thank you, Brian. 00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:39.840 It's a blessing to be able to talk with you. 00:37:39.620 --> 00:37:41.380 And I appreciate so much 00:37:41.700 --> 00:37:42.740 these interviews. 00:37:42.740 --> 00:37:44.900 I've listened to a number of them. 00:37:44.900 --> 00:37:45.060 And 00:37:45.780 --> 00:37:48.900 one thing I would say is if a man is considering 00:37:49.059 --> 00:37:50.900 Doing the men's rites of passage. 00:37:50.900 --> 00:37:52.900 Listen to these podcasts. 00:37:53.539 --> 00:37:54.260 Thank you so much. 00:37:54.260 --> 00:37:57.460 I love you, brother, and I hope to see you soon, perhaps at Awaken this year. 00:37:57.859 --> 00:37:58.660 That's mutual. 00:37:58.660 --> 00:38:00.099 Thank you, Brian. 00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:02.520 For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul 00:38:02.680 --> 00:38:06.839 and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. 00:38:06.839 --> 00:38:14.119 The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six. 00:38:14.260 --> 00:38:24.340 While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since twenty twelve Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world. 00:38:23.660 --> 00:38:28.700 To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return 00:38:28.860 --> 00:38:29.980 by Richard Rohr. 00:38:29.980 --> 00:38:30.860 If you are ready to make your 00:38:31.020 --> 00:38:36.620 rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six. 00:38:36.260 --> 00:38:37.940 The first is in Northern California, May 00:38:38.100 --> 00:38:39.380 thirteenth through the seventeenth 00:38:39.620 --> 00:38:46.100 the second in the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth, and in Illinois, August twelfth through the sixteenth. 00:38:46.100 --> 00:38:50.820 There is one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth. 00:38:49.859 --> 00:38:56.900 And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is an MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth. 00:38:57.220 --> 00:39:00.660 You can find details and registration information at Illuman dot 00:39:00.820 --> 00:39:02.500 org slash mrop 00:39:02.940 --> 00:39:03.099 or 00:39:03.260 --> 00:39:05.740 Illuman dot org slash events. 00:39:05.740 --> 00:39:13.820 Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico. 00:39:13.820 --> 00:39:17.180 You can find more at Illuman dot org slash awaken. 00:39:17.780 --> 00:39:21.380 Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence. 00:39:21.380 --> 00:39:27.300 If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life. 00:39:26.660 --> 00:39:28.980 Download the Practicing Presence app for free 00:39:29.140 --> 00:39:30.580 at choosingpresence dot 00:39:30.820 --> 00:39:31.140 org 00:39:31.300 --> 00:39:31.620 slash 00:39:31.780 --> 00:39:32.420 app. 00:39:32.420 --> 00:39:37.380 It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today. 00:39:37.040 --> 00:39:40.240 Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP. 00:39:40.240 --> 00:39:43.200 Until next time, brothers, stay present.