Brian Mueller: Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation.
Brian Mueller: My name is Brian Mueller.
Brian Mueller: I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen.
Brian Mueller: I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story.
Brian Mueller: This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what changed afterward.
Brian Mueller: Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude.
Brian Mueller: This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence.
Brian Mueller: We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence.
Brian Mueller: In a world of constant distraction, Choosing Presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now.
Brian Mueller: If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot
Brian Mueller: org slash app.
Brian Mueller: Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and
Brian Mueller: soul.
Brian Mueller: On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path.
Brian Mueller: Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him.
Brian Mueller: My guest today is Dave Kraybill.
Brian Mueller: Brother, I'm really glad you're here.
Brian Mueller: Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story.
Dave Kraybill: Thanks a lot, Brian.
Dave Kraybill: Really appreciate the opportunity to be here.
Dave Kraybill: I'm
Dave Kraybill: honored that you've asked me to do this, to tell my story.
Brian Mueller: Thank you, Dave.
Brian Mueller: Tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days.
Dave Kraybill: Okay.
Dave Kraybill: I grew up,
Dave Kraybill: Brian, on a farm
Dave Kraybill: in a
Dave Kraybill: Mennonite home, in a Mennonite
Dave Kraybill: farming
Dave Kraybill: largely
Dave Kraybill: Mennonite farming community of Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: eventually, after quite a number of career turns,
Dave Kraybill: ended up going into academia.
Dave Kraybill: agricultural economist by training, and so
Dave Kraybill: worked in the U.
Dave Kraybill: S.
Dave Kraybill: in several academic jobs at several universities.
Dave Kraybill: And then
Dave Kraybill: also
Dave Kraybill: along the way, my wife and I have lived and worked in Africa for 11 years.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: the way I spend my time these days is
Dave Kraybill: I've been retired for a number of years now.
Dave Kraybill: I'm a hobby woodworker.
Dave Kraybill: I love to make furniture, both for our house as well as increasingly
Dave Kraybill: for various Illuman
Dave Kraybill: events.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: also, I
Dave Kraybill: put a good deal of time into
Dave Kraybill: some leadership roles in Illuman now.
Brian Mueller: Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: The MROP is a unique experience.
Brian Mueller: It's not a retreat or a workshop.
Brian Mueller: It's an initiation.
Brian Mueller: Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name.
Brian Mueller: Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning.
Brian Mueller: Dave, when
Brian Mueller: and where did you make your rites?
Dave Kraybill: I did
Dave Kraybill: my MROP
Dave Kraybill: in 2024 at Aravaipa Canyon in Arizona.
Brian Mueller: And who was the weaver
Brian Mueller: and about how many men would you say
Brian Mueller: were there?
Dave Kraybill: The Weaver was a wonderful man
Dave Kraybill: by the name of Giovanni Perez.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: if I recall, Brian, I think there were about
Dave Kraybill: Thirty-two men there.
Dave Kraybill: You were also there.
Dave Kraybill: You and I met there, which
Dave Kraybill: I will
Dave Kraybill: always remember.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: fortunately, our paths have crossed numerous times since then.
Brian Mueller: Absolutely.
Brian Mueller: I have a wonderful memory of you helping me set up the
Brian Mueller: group photo at the end of the MROP.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: Brian, I do want to add that I
Dave Kraybill: had the opportunity to return to Aravaipa
Dave Kraybill: last week, in fact.
Dave Kraybill: For a whole week for another Illuman retreat.
Dave Kraybill: And in fact, I slept in a tent there
Dave Kraybill: this time, and I pitched my tent on the same spot where that huge
Dave Kraybill: Temporary tent was set up for the MROP
Dave Kraybill: in twenty-twenty four.
Brian Mueller: Also, right where the sacred space was.
Dave Kraybill: Exactly.
Brian Mueller: Beautiful, that's wonderful.
Brian Mueller: I always say, too, that Aravaipa is sort of like a Mecca.
Brian Mueller: For men in Illuman, those that have been there
Brian Mueller: really hold that place special to them and
Brian Mueller: want to make a pilgrimage there.
Dave Kraybill: It is indeed a very special place.
Dave Kraybill: And when I went back this time, honestly, I can say I felt like I was going home.
Brian Mueller: So when you think back to the weekend of your MROP, what's the the first image that comes forth for you?
Dave Kraybill: Wow.
Dave Kraybill: It's hard to choose one.
Dave Kraybill: There are so many.
Dave Kraybill: Well, I think
Dave Kraybill: perhaps the strongest memory I have,
Dave Kraybill: image that I have, actually, is
Dave Kraybill: helping to perform one of the rituals.
Dave Kraybill: It was in the second night of the retreat.
Dave Kraybill: The first day
Dave Kraybill: we had been told that they were looking for eight volunteers for a ritual.
Dave Kraybill: The next day, and it was a ritual that I won't go into detail about it, it was a ritual that had to do with grief.
Dave Kraybill: And I had gone to the MROP
Dave Kraybill: feeling like
Dave Kraybill: I didn't know what I was getting into.
Dave Kraybill: I didn't have a lot of anxiety about it, but I just had no idea what my level of comfort was.
Dave Kraybill: But I did go
Dave Kraybill: with the commitment that I was going to be all in.
Dave Kraybill: So
Dave Kraybill: when they called for volunteers, I raised my hand right away.
Dave Kraybill: And I think the single strongest
Dave Kraybill: Memory that I have from my MROP
Dave Kraybill: was
Dave Kraybill: that I've been a lifelong doer and achiever.
Dave Kraybill: For good
Dave Kraybill: and for ill.
Dave Kraybill: And so
Dave Kraybill: when
Dave Kraybill: we had practiced
Dave Kraybill: that first evening for the ritual that we were going to do the next day.
Dave Kraybill: And immediately
Dave Kraybill: my performance anxieties
Dave Kraybill: started coming to the surface.
Dave Kraybill: And the two trainers said
Dave Kraybill: something that
Dave Kraybill: is now written on my heart, and that is, they said
Dave Kraybill: ,
Dave Kraybill: Brothers, what you're doing here, what you will be doing here tomorrow, is not performance, it's prayer.
Dave Kraybill: And that's become a theme of my life
Dave Kraybill: throughout that whole MROP
Dave Kraybill: So, this memory of
Dave Kraybill: looking at
Dave Kraybill: my presence and what I was doing in the MROP, not only in that ritual, but the whole five days, looking at that as prayer, was just really profound.
Dave Kraybill: And I can say at this point in my life
Dave Kraybill: that
Dave Kraybill: performance anxiety, that need
Dave Kraybill: essentially, I guess, to
Dave Kraybill: impress, which
Dave Kraybill: frankly
Dave Kraybill: I don't like.
Dave Kraybill: But it's there
Dave Kraybill: and it always pops up.
Dave Kraybill: When that comes up, I just begin to think what I'm doing of
Dave Kraybill: as prayer.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
Brian Mueller: Now thinking back to the weekend as a whole, how would you characterize the experience generally?
Dave Kraybill: Well, I think
Dave Kraybill: one of the things that was really important to me is
Dave Kraybill: I had spent
Dave Kraybill: Certainly, my
Dave Kraybill: most of my work life
Dave Kraybill: pretty much living in my head.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: yet, I also
Dave Kraybill: had
Dave Kraybill: strong spiritual inclinations.
Dave Kraybill: Often
Dave Kraybill: didn't act on them in any way other than my head.
Dave Kraybill: Though through the years
Dave Kraybill: I would have, I did have
Dave Kraybill: numerous experiences of what you might call intimations of God.
Dave Kraybill: But, you know, really not a lot of emphasis on experience.
Dave Kraybill: And in the MROP, it's very experience focused.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: I think
Dave Kraybill: also
Dave Kraybill: particularly
Dave Kraybill: that training for the ritual
Dave Kraybill: that first night
Dave Kraybill: where
Dave Kraybill: we were told to think of this as prayer.
Dave Kraybill: Somehow, something deep inside me got the message, You're here to experience this.
Dave Kraybill: You're here to experience God.
Dave Kraybill: You're here to experience
Dave Kraybill: connection with
Dave Kraybill: other men
Dave Kraybill: and even connection to people in my life that
Dave Kraybill: weren't physically present there.
Dave Kraybill: So
Dave Kraybill: I think that
Dave Kraybill: that certainly was a huge part of my experience there of
Dave Kraybill: just to let myself move into
Dave Kraybill: what some people call a
Dave Kraybill: three-centered awareness
Dave Kraybill: that was
Dave Kraybill: It was very much bodily, it was also emotional, and it was also the head, but
Dave Kraybill: all of it was experience-oriented.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: that's left a mark on me
Dave Kraybill: now
Dave Kraybill: ever since
Dave Kraybill: that I would say I continue to live
Dave Kraybill: on a daily basis.
Brian Mueller: So I'd like to ask you to share maybe an experience from the rites or maybe even an encounter that you had with another man there, so long as it isn't too personal or confidential.
Dave Kraybill: Well, one thing that comes to mind is
Dave Kraybill: we spent a day in the wilderness, which is standard in the men's rites of passage.
Dave Kraybill: I I didn't know that in advance.
Dave Kraybill: But we were sent out into the desert in teams, in in pairs.
Dave Kraybill: And so I had a partner, and we were instructed not to talk to each other
Dave Kraybill: And we were walking along, and he and I
Dave Kraybill: silently
Dave Kraybill: would each
Dave Kraybill: point out with our walking sticks something that really meant something to us.
Dave Kraybill: And I remember very clearly walking along
Dave Kraybill: I think he had pointed out an unusual cactus
Dave Kraybill: typical for Aravaipa,
Dave Kraybill: the high
Dave Kraybill: mountain desert there in the Sonora.
Dave Kraybill: So then I
Dave Kraybill: as I was walking along, I was just looking at the rock formations which are all over the place, the various plants, the aridness, and yet the incredible contrast between things that were green and
Dave Kraybill: and most things just being totally dry and and arid.
Dave Kraybill: And we got to this one rock face
Dave Kraybill: where there was a plant growing at the top of a sort of a rock, a rock cliff, and it was right at the at the edge, at the top.
Dave Kraybill: And there was a root that was growing down.
Dave Kraybill: It grew down through
Dave Kraybill: some cracks that you could see, and you could see every now and then
Dave Kraybill: it had sent the
Dave Kraybill: side roots off
Dave Kraybill: into
Dave Kraybill: the rock.
Dave Kraybill: And I remember just being struck with that, and it felt
Dave Kraybill: in many ways
Dave Kraybill: to me
Dave Kraybill: like
Dave Kraybill: I was feeling when I came to Aravaipa, because I came there
Dave Kraybill: with a good deal of pain, a good deal of pain in my life.
Dave Kraybill: And to see this plant there
Dave Kraybill: surviving in that way, and in fact
Dave Kraybill: flourishing in what seemed like
Dave Kraybill: almost impossible circumstances
Dave Kraybill: And to be able to witness that with, you know, another person, that
Dave Kraybill: was just incredibly meaningful.
Brian Mueller: That's beautiful.
Brian Mueller: Thank you.
Brian Mueller: Now let me take you back to
Brian Mueller: the period that
Brian Mueller: before you signed up for the rites.
Brian Mueller: What were the circumstances in your life?
Brian Mueller: What was going on in your life that informed your decision to register for the rites?
Dave Kraybill: Brian, I'll try to be brief on this.
Dave Kraybill: I have to admit, I feel like there was so much that led up to that that
Dave Kraybill: I could probably talk on all day, but I'll try to observe the Illuman Council
Dave Kraybill: Advice of being lean of speech.
Dave Kraybill: Yeah,
Dave Kraybill: so
Dave Kraybill: I
Dave Kraybill: went into a line of work
Dave Kraybill: That
Dave Kraybill: really allowed me to live out, and again, I'd say for good and for ill, my urge to do things
Dave Kraybill: and to be acknowledged, to get esteem.
Dave Kraybill: Or
Dave Kraybill: for doing things, I was in a high-pressured research university, and so there was just this constant pressure to publish
Dave Kraybill: And then if you publish, then you get lots of positive feedback.
Dave Kraybill: If you don't, then
Dave Kraybill: you're just kind of a dud.
Dave Kraybill: And so I had really
Dave Kraybill: I had gotten into a habit for many years of overworking.
Dave Kraybill: I had begun to treat my body as though it was a machine.
Dave Kraybill: I mean, I could stay up all night if I needed to to prepare, you know, a paper or something like that, because
Dave Kraybill: I'd begun to build my sense of self around what I did.
Dave Kraybill: Which, you know, looking back now, I can just see
Dave Kraybill: that's such a false foundation.
Dave Kraybill: But
Dave Kraybill: so
Dave Kraybill: I was
Dave Kraybill: as part of my work for the university
Dave Kraybill: My wife and I
Dave Kraybill: lived in Africa for six years, and I was running a major project for my university.
Dave Kraybill: It was
Dave Kraybill: Funded by the U.
Dave Kraybill: S.
Dave Kraybill: Government, we were helping to train the next generation of agricultural scientists for that country.
Dave Kraybill: It seemed like incredibly important work.
Dave Kraybill: I absolutely loved it, and
Dave Kraybill: I was just working myself to a frazzle.
Dave Kraybill: And during that time
Dave Kraybill: I flew back to the US
Dave Kraybill: for a trip, just
Dave Kraybill: four days.
Dave Kraybill: So
Dave Kraybill: my wife stayed in Tanzania.
Dave Kraybill: I had a heart attack the next morning, a major heart attack
Dave Kraybill: the next morning
Dave Kraybill: in the US.
Dave Kraybill: Was able to communicate with my wife, and she got in a plane, and so she joined me within 24 hours.
Dave Kraybill: But
Dave Kraybill: there were a number of things that happened around that time that just really caught my attention.
Dave Kraybill: And one of the ones
Dave Kraybill: It really sticks in my mind and heart
Dave Kraybill: is the next day.
Dave Kraybill: I was sitting up in bed, and
Dave Kraybill: one of our daughters
Dave Kraybill: and her husband
Dave Kraybill: Showed up in the hospital room, and I was sitting up in bed
Dave Kraybill: actually
Dave Kraybill: emailing my co-workers in Tanzania and Ohio.
Dave Kraybill: and they came into the room and they expected there would be tubes all over me and everything else.
Dave Kraybill: There
Dave Kraybill: there I was
Dave Kraybill: sitting up in bed
Dave Kraybill: and
Dave Kraybill: I just
Dave Kraybill: I don't remember what they said at the time, but they seemed surprised.
Dave Kraybill: And so I went into cardiac rehab.
Dave Kraybill: And eventually, after a couple of months, we went back to Tanzania
Dave Kraybill: another
Dave Kraybill: year.
Dave Kraybill: But
Dave Kraybill: It took me years, Brian, after that experience
Dave Kraybill: to realize
Dave Kraybill: that
Dave Kraybill: I was building my life on a foundation that was not good for me or anybody else.
Dave Kraybill: It wasn't good for my family.
Dave Kraybill: It wasn't good for my life.
Dave Kraybill: No, it probably wasn't even good for my students.
Dave Kraybill: And then I also recall getting feedback from
Dave Kraybill: my children that
Dave Kraybill: I really worked too much.
Dave Kraybill: And I
Dave Kraybill: kind of.
Dave Kraybill: I kinda I really pushed back at that.
Dave Kraybill: I thought I had done my job.
Dave Kraybill: I had earned income for the family.
Dave Kraybill: We had a stable situation
Dave Kraybill: It was just hard for me to see the flaws in what I was doing.
Dave Kraybill: So that led me eventually
Dave Kraybill: into
Dave Kraybill: Joining a group for families
Dave Kraybill: where families are facing challenges.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: that began to open me up.
Dave Kraybill: I began to read Richard Rohr.
Dave Kraybill: I read several of his books, including Adam's Return from
Dave Kraybill: Wild Man to Wise Man, Breathing Underwater, I think, and the
Dave Kraybill: Universal Christ.
Dave Kraybill: There was a message in Richard Rohr
Dave Kraybill: that really
Dave Kraybill: stuck with me, and I probably think about it just about every day, even now, and that is
Dave Kraybill: the idea that pain that is not transformed
Dave Kraybill: is transmitted.
Dave Kraybill: I never wanted to transmit my pain.
Dave Kraybill: And I haven't really gone into what I think caused my pain, what caused me to overwork.
Dave Kraybill: In a nutshell, it basically
Dave Kraybill: came down to
Dave Kraybill: I grew up in a loving family, but I was the middle kid of seven kids.
Dave Kraybill: And I noticed growing up, I mean, I began to realize that
Dave Kraybill: often
Dave Kraybill: feel
Dave Kraybill: that
Dave Kraybill: despite the fact that
Dave Kraybill: my family was loving.
Dave Kraybill: the dinner table was so noisy and boisterous that I often felt like I wasn't seen and heard.
Dave Kraybill: And I learned that
Dave Kraybill: I was
Dave Kraybill: at a young
Dave Kraybill: very young age
Dave Kraybill: that I could get attention by making things.
Dave Kraybill: And so
Dave Kraybill: I became a maker.
Dave Kraybill: And so, you know, that wasn't the only thing, but I think that was the major thing in creating the pain that I then
Dave Kraybill: was
Dave Kraybill: transmitting to other people.
Dave Kraybill: And so
Dave Kraybill: my wife and I
Dave Kraybill: actually were doing some therapy after the heart attack.
Dave Kraybill: And I mentioned to the therapist
Dave Kraybill: that the pain that I was feeling felt to me like it was something deeper than ordinary therapy can deal with.
Dave Kraybill: I remember saying that
Dave Kraybill: I feel my pain in my spirit.
Dave Kraybill: And I didn't even quite know what I meant by spirit.
Dave Kraybill: But
Dave Kraybill: the therapist, who was
Dave Kraybill: very good
Dave Kraybill: ,
Dave Kraybill: listened and said,
Dave Kraybill: Well, you know, she said
Dave Kraybill: My husband has been working with Richard Rohr
Dave Kraybill: for years, and he has
Dave Kraybill: and there's an organization that
Dave Kraybill: Richard Rohr had helped get started
Dave Kraybill: Called
Dave Kraybill: Illuman.
Dave Kraybill: Maybe you should check it out.
Dave Kraybill: So I went home and looked it up in the Internet, and
Dave Kraybill: wow, it it certainly looked like it could be something that I was
Dave Kraybill: interested in.
Dave Kraybill: So
Dave Kraybill: I
Dave Kraybill: found out that there was a virtual Illuman Council that
Dave Kraybill: in
Dave Kraybill: the East Coast States.
Dave Kraybill: and that I could easily join.
Dave Kraybill: So I joined that
Dave Kraybill: and
Dave Kraybill: then, you know, began to read about the men's rites of passage on the Illuman
Dave Kraybill: website, then
Dave Kraybill: signed up for it
Dave Kraybill: not very
Dave Kraybill: much
Dave Kraybill: after I'd gotten that recommendation from the therapist.
Brian Mueller: Thank you so much, Dave, for your story and
Brian Mueller: for really detailing that.
Brian Mueller: I think for you, you have a really strong sense that it was a journey.
Brian Mueller: It was a period of events
Brian Mueller: that took place over a course of, it sounds like a couple of years at least, that led you to the rites.
Brian Mueller: You know, some guys don't have sort of
Brian Mueller: that
Brian Mueller: understanding of their experience, but that really is wonderful.
Brian Mueller: It is a journey, and obviously it's a journey after the rites.
Brian Mueller: Let me ask you though, when you did decide to register for the rites, and then you told your wife, maybe your spiritual director, a therapist, even your kids, how did they react to your decision?
Dave Kraybill: Well,
Dave Kraybill: gotta say, my wife was
Dave Kraybill: was
Dave Kraybill: was supportive.
Dave Kraybill: She
Dave Kraybill: she has different
Dave Kraybill: she has a different
Dave Kraybill: spiritual experience than I have.
Dave Kraybill: It's probably not something that she would do.
Dave Kraybill: But
Dave Kraybill: she was very supportive of me doing it.
Dave Kraybill: The only thing I would say is, even in my work,
Dave Kraybill: my leadership work with a room
Dave Kraybill: in, I tend to overwork.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: I keep telling myself, and
Dave Kraybill: I tell this to marry my wife,
Dave Kraybill: Illuman
Dave Kraybill: is here to help us become
Dave Kraybill: better men.
Dave Kraybill: And I don't want to do my work in Illuman in a way that, you know, that would harm our relationship in any way.
Dave Kraybill: Fortunately, I feel like we've been able to keep those things into balance.
Dave Kraybill: She helps me keep those things into
Dave Kraybill: balance.
Dave Kraybill: And actually, we both help
Dave Kraybill: to
Dave Kraybill: keep each other in balance, I would say.
Dave Kraybill: But she's
Dave Kraybill: been very supportive.
Brian Mueller: You know, Aero Vipa is a kind of a remote location for the men's rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: So whoever comes to the rites, whether they fly in or drive in
Brian Mueller: Even if you're flying, you have to take a you know, a trip from probably the Phoenix airport.
Brian Mueller: ,
Brian Mueller: And then even when you come off the main road, it's another half hour, forty-five minutes to get back to where the
Brian Mueller: ranch is, where the rites are.
Brian Mueller: And as you come in,
Brian Mueller: there's this wonderful creek, Aravaipa Creek, that
Brian Mueller: kind of forms a boundary.
Brian Mueller: And so when you go across that, you really, you know, you really can see that as a threshold into sacred space.
Brian Mueller: So I'm taking you back to that moment to ask you.
Brian Mueller: When you arrived at Aravaipa and began the rites, was there something you were hoping for?
Brian Mueller: Was there something you wanted to be initiated into?
Dave Kraybill: I absolutely knew I wanted to
Dave Kraybill: new
Dave Kraybill: experiences, new
Dave Kraybill: deep
Dave Kraybill: spiritual experiences.
Dave Kraybill: I didn't know what they were.
Dave Kraybill: And I can say, when we got to the edge of that creek
Dave Kraybill: and I looked across, because
Dave Kraybill: ,
Dave Kraybill: at the Ford
Dave Kraybill: it's
Dave Kraybill: probably, I dunno, thirty five feet wide or something like that.
Dave Kraybill: Looked across the Ford, and there was Giovanni in a robe
Dave Kraybill: Swinging, I forget what you call those things that hold incense, the swinging incense
Dave Kraybill: and walking towards us, I felt like I was moving into a different world.
Dave Kraybill: Like I said, I had grown up in a
Dave Kraybill: in a Mennonite community
Dave Kraybill: which
Dave Kraybill: which I have a lot of respect for in many, many ways, but
Dave Kraybill: ritual was
Dave Kraybill: I should say
Dave Kraybill: It was definitely not high
Dave Kraybill: church.
Dave Kraybill: And so we didn't have incense.
Dave Kraybill: We didn't, you know, our
Dave Kraybill: ministers didn't wear
Dave Kraybill: different kind of garb or anything like that.
Dave Kraybill: So when I got there, in many, many ways,
Dave Kraybill: it was so different from what I'd grown up from.
Dave Kraybill: It was in this natural environment,
Dave Kraybill: the desert that looked
Dave Kraybill: very
Dave Kraybill: sort of surreal to begin with.
Dave Kraybill: Crossing that threshold for me, Brian, was
Dave Kraybill: was
Dave Kraybill: really a deep experience.
Dave Kraybill: Again, it's one of those things.
Dave Kraybill: I'll never forget.
Dave Kraybill: And last week, at the retreat that I was at at Aravaipa Canyon, we used that as a threshold again, and we crossed that creek.
Dave Kraybill: again.
Dave Kraybill: So
Dave Kraybill: and
Dave Kraybill: that was a wonderful memory for me.
Brian Mueller: You said earlier that you didn't have a lot of anxiety about the the MROP or participate in the MROP.
Brian Mueller: But
Brian Mueller: as you actually
Brian Mueller: once you arrived there and you crossed uh the creek and headed towards the camp,
Brian Mueller: Was there anything you were fearing, or did you have anything that you were concerned about?
Dave Kraybill: Well, I definitely had this sense that I was probably entering into an experience that would be sort of visceral.
Dave Kraybill: would
Dave Kraybill: be somatic
Dave Kraybill: in a way that I hadn't experienced before.
Dave Kraybill: And I can't say exactly why, but I was looking forward to that, and yet
Dave Kraybill: also
Dave Kraybill: Definitely
Dave Kraybill: had some
Dave Kraybill: anxiety about that
Dave Kraybill: simply because
Dave Kraybill: it was a new kind of experience for me.
Dave Kraybill: I had
Dave Kraybill: also heard that
Dave Kraybill: there's drumming that goes on there.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: I grew up in an environment where we
Dave Kraybill: where rhythm was really looked down on.
Dave Kraybill: potentially evil.
Dave Kraybill: And I loved the idea of drumming, but frankly, I'd really never done it.
Dave Kraybill: So
Dave Kraybill: I just thought, you know, wow, am I going to end up feeling
Dave Kraybill: Either like a fool or a fish out of water.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: it was that advice
Dave Kraybill: that first night
Dave Kraybill: to think of it as prayer
Dave Kraybill: that just helped me move out of that.
Dave Kraybill: And from then on
Dave Kraybill: I can say, really,
Dave Kraybill: there was no anxiety.
Dave Kraybill: I just really felt engaged.
Dave Kraybill: I felt engaged.
Dave Kraybill: With
Dave Kraybill: the process, with the others that were there, with
Dave Kraybill: the weaver and others that were leading it, and also
Dave Kraybill: with
Dave Kraybill: something way beyond the divine.
Brian Mueller: The rites is
Brian Mueller: quite an experience.
Brian Mueller: It takes place over the parts of five days, four nights that you're there.
Brian Mueller: It's a kind of a journey of descent.
Brian Mueller: There's lots of ritual and experiences.
Brian Mueller: But eventually it does come to a close.
Brian Mueller: How did you feel immediately afterwards, upon leaving Aravaipa and just completing the rites?
Dave Kraybill: The one thing I knew was that I had had experiences there that I wanted to have them continue.
Dave Kraybill: I just really, really knew that.
Dave Kraybill: I was in a small group,
Dave Kraybill: a council, there
Dave Kraybill: at Aravaipa.
Dave Kraybill: And that was not a great experience, frankly.
Dave Kraybill: I won't go into the details about what happened there, but we didn't cohere and we didn't meet afterwards.
Dave Kraybill: But
Dave Kraybill: I really
Dave Kraybill: wanted it
Dave Kraybill: to continue.
Dave Kraybill: So I
Dave Kraybill: remember that we were told at the end
Dave Kraybill: before we disbanded.
Dave Kraybill: That it was really important
Dave Kraybill: to
Dave Kraybill: have a daily practice of some kind.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: I hadn't had a daily contemplative practice.
Dave Kraybill: And so I
Dave Kraybill: started that
Dave Kraybill: very shortly after I got back.
Dave Kraybill: And also, Brian, I remember toward the end, I think probably right at the end, you
Dave Kraybill: talking about choosing presence or practicing presence.
Dave Kraybill: That you've been working with, which is
Dave Kraybill: really a very simple way
Dave Kraybill: of just sort of
Dave Kraybill: checking in
Dave Kraybill: in a
Dave Kraybill: contemplative way every morning.
Dave Kraybill: I started doing that
Dave Kraybill: Within a couple of weeks after leaving Aravaipa, and I continue it to this day.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: it's really, really
Dave Kraybill: been
Dave Kraybill: meaningful.
Dave Kraybill: And something else I would share is, I had joined another men's group.
Dave Kraybill: Like I said, it was basically for men that
Dave Kraybill: have family issues.
Dave Kraybill: So, in that group,
Dave Kraybill: When I got back, they wanted to know about this men's rites of passage, which I had told them in advance I was
Dave Kraybill: going to
Dave Kraybill: participate in.
Dave Kraybill: And so I didn't go into much detail, but
Dave Kraybill: I probably talked for two or three minutes and
Dave Kraybill: emphasized the deep experiences that
Dave Kraybill: I had had there.
Dave Kraybill: A friend of mine, or actually
Dave Kraybill: by
Dave Kraybill: at that point, he was just a mere acquaintance because I didn't know him very well.
Dave Kraybill: He came to me afterwards and he said,
Dave Kraybill: Tell me
Dave Kraybill: more about
Dave Kraybill: this.
Dave Kraybill: What is this men's rites of passage?
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: he's told me numerous times since then, in that two or three minutes where I shared with this men's group, he said, Dave, he said,
Dave Kraybill: you
Dave Kraybill: glowed.
Dave Kraybill: He said
Dave Kraybill: you just glowed.
Dave Kraybill: He said
Dave Kraybill: he really decided there must be something there and he
Dave Kraybill: wanted to do
Dave Kraybill: it.
Dave Kraybill: So
Dave Kraybill: I'd say I came back with a lot of energy.
Dave Kraybill: I was retired at that point, which
Dave Kraybill: a lot of men aren't when they do this.
Dave Kraybill: And so they have to go back to work life.
Dave Kraybill: They may have a different experience.
Dave Kraybill: But for me,
Dave Kraybill: having my schedule fairly free, I was sure I wanted it to continue.
Dave Kraybill: And it has in various ways.
Brian Mueller: Thank you for that.
Brian Mueller: I really appreciate what you shared on
Brian Mueller: multiple levels.
Brian Mueller: And I've talked to many men
Brian Mueller: so far about
Brian Mueller: these rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: I get a really clear picture of what many of them came away from the rice
Brian Mueller: with.
Brian Mueller: And
Brian Mueller: among those things, which are
Brian Mueller: find a community of men and participate in that community, spend more time in nature.
Brian Mueller: And the third is always
Brian Mueller: find and develop a contemplative practice.
Brian Mueller: I think that's a real important thing.
Brian Mueller: So, yeah, I'm really glad that that came through for you.
Brian Mueller: Let me ask you about what's changed in your life in the last couple of years since Making the Rise.
Brian Mueller: I'm thinking practically, spiritually, relationally.
Dave Kraybill: Thanks for that question, Brian.
Dave Kraybill: Well, I would say
Dave Kraybill: and this is just me reporting
Dave Kraybill: you know, it
Dave Kraybill: the proof really has to come from
Dave Kraybill: what actually happens in my life, and others could tell this story
Dave Kraybill: more objectively than I could.
Dave Kraybill: But I would say I'm much more in touch with my own grief.
Dave Kraybill: I think I pretty much denied pain and grief in my life.
Dave Kraybill: I'm much more in touch with my body.
Dave Kraybill: I
Dave Kraybill: take
Dave Kraybill: much better care of my body
Dave Kraybill: in multiple ways, including my diet.
Dave Kraybill: I would say I have a much deeper
Dave Kraybill: appreciation for the full range of emotions.
Dave Kraybill: And in fact, there are there are a lot of ideas and
Dave Kraybill: views of the world, even some therapies that
Dave Kraybill: largely encourage people to sort of treat your emotions as something that gets in the way.
Dave Kraybill: I no longer see it that way.
Dave Kraybill: I've come to see even
Dave Kraybill: what we might call the negative emotions and the anger and fear and
Dave Kraybill: and shame and so on.
Dave Kraybill: Even those are portals for personal
Dave Kraybill: growth.
Dave Kraybill: Richard Rohr has a
Dave Kraybill: lovely saying
Dave Kraybill: about how
Dave Kraybill: there are two major teachers in our lives
Dave Kraybill: great
Dave Kraybill: pain and great
Dave Kraybill: love.
Dave Kraybill: And so
Dave Kraybill: I've come to really appreciate the full range of emotions.
Dave Kraybill: I'd say I'm much more able to be vulnerable with other people.
Dave Kraybill: In fact, I welcome it.
Dave Kraybill: I
Dave Kraybill: literally find myself welcoming it.
Dave Kraybill: One could easily overshare, of course, but in the right setting, I find it easy to open up.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: also, I'm more able to listen,
Dave Kraybill: able to listen from the heart.
Dave Kraybill: I'd say, first and foremost, with my wife.
Dave Kraybill: This is our fiftieth year of marriage.
Dave Kraybill: So
Dave Kraybill: we've managed to stay together all these years.
Dave Kraybill: We had a lot of good years.
Dave Kraybill: We had a lot of years that were
Dave Kraybill: where I can say for myself
Dave Kraybill: looking back.
Dave Kraybill: I was not a very good listener.
Dave Kraybill: I was too busy doing my own thing.
Dave Kraybill: Now, when my wife and I are talking, I lay my phone down.
Dave Kraybill: I always make myself do it.
Dave Kraybill: And that's just one thing.
Dave Kraybill: Deep listening has to do with so much more than that.
Dave Kraybill: But
Dave Kraybill: Also, you know, able to speak from the heart.
Dave Kraybill: And another thing that has changed is, you know, I had thought I was going to be spending my retirement making furniture, which I love to do.
Dave Kraybill: I mean, I am a maker.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: I love the design.
Dave Kraybill: I love to
Dave Kraybill: build.
Dave Kraybill: I just get
Dave Kraybill: what psychologists call flow from that experience.
Dave Kraybill: And during the pandemic, I should say it pretty much saved me.
Dave Kraybill: During the pandemic, I was building furniture
Dave Kraybill: while listening to audiobooks.
Dave Kraybill: Lots of them, including Richard Rohr, a lot of others.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: so
Dave Kraybill: something
Dave Kraybill: that has changed now is
Dave Kraybill: while I still
Dave Kraybill: do
Dave Kraybill: woodworking
Dave Kraybill: I
Dave Kraybill: have really
Dave Kraybill: turned a lot more than I had even imagined I would to service, especially Illuman.
Dave Kraybill: I attended a second MROP, this one this time
Dave Kraybill: going back as an initiator.
Dave Kraybill: In 2024, the same year I was initiated at Aravaipa, I returned to an MROP at Shrine Mont, Virginia.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: while I was there, a friend of mine
Dave Kraybill: Who was attending for the first time, and I decided to start a local council.
Dave Kraybill: So we co-convene a bi-weekly, in-person
Dave Kraybill: Council that meets here in the Washington DC
Dave Kraybill: area.
Dave Kraybill: Also, then, last year
Dave Kraybill: I was asked to consider being the convener of the East Coast Collaborative.
Dave Kraybill: That is the Illuman's chapter that runs up and down the East Coast.
Dave Kraybill: This year
Dave Kraybill: I am the convener.
Dave Kraybill: Also, I am quite involved at my church.
Dave Kraybill: I would say that also
Dave Kraybill: has been a result of my work with Illuman.
Dave Kraybill: I feel
Dave Kraybill: connected not only to nature, not only to God, but also
Dave Kraybill: deeply connected to other
Dave Kraybill: people.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: service has just become very important for me.
Brian Mueller: Let me ask you, what do you suspect your wife might say if she was asked
Brian Mueller: what impact the rites had on Dave?
Dave Kraybill: You know, Matthew lied.
Dave Kraybill: I asked my wife that one time.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: she gained the same answer that I've heard her giving since then when people have asked her that.
Dave Kraybill: Though I think she
Dave Kraybill: I I'm only aware of her having been asked that one or two other times beside the time
Dave Kraybill: Matthew
Dave Kraybill: did.
Dave Kraybill: But what she always says is, well, Dave was good to begin with.
Dave Kraybill: But she's being generous
Dave Kraybill: because there's no doubt about it.
Dave Kraybill: I mean, I tended to avoid conflict.
Dave Kraybill: I tended to shut down.
Dave Kraybill: I could also be quite reactive, you know, verbally at times.
Dave Kraybill: But, you know, after a couple of minutes, my tendency has always been to shut down.
Dave Kraybill: And one
Dave Kraybill: thing that I'm sure my wife would say
Dave Kraybill: that is a change that has occurred
Dave Kraybill: in me
Dave Kraybill: over the last couple of years
Dave Kraybill: is
Dave Kraybill: I don't shut down anymore.
Dave Kraybill: She never shut down to her credit.
Dave Kraybill: I don't shut down anymore.
Dave Kraybill: I think she would also say that I
Dave Kraybill: become a good listener.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: also, I think she would probably say that I've listened to her life story in a way
Dave Kraybill: for good and for ill that
Dave Kraybill: formed her personality.
Dave Kraybill: I think she would say that I've
Dave Kraybill: become a much better listener.
Dave Kraybill: And finally, I think she would say
Dave Kraybill: that
Dave Kraybill: I
Dave Kraybill: become a much better
Dave Kraybill: partner as a parent
Dave Kraybill: with her.
Brian Mueller: Let me ask you
Brian Mueller: I don't know how much thought you gave to it before, but perhaps you have given it a lot of thought since your
Brian Mueller: rites.
Brian Mueller: How has your
Brian Mueller: thinking around initiation, masculinity, the male journey through life, been impacted by this event?
Dave Kraybill: Oh, good
Dave Kraybill: question.
Dave Kraybill: You know, I went into the MROP
Dave Kraybill: not knowing what this initiation
Dave Kraybill: I mean, what was the initiation part of it, even though I had
Dave Kraybill: read
Dave Kraybill: The two books that Richard Rohr has written, that pretty much describes it.
Dave Kraybill: I had a hard time getting
Dave Kraybill: my head around
Dave Kraybill: that.
Dave Kraybill: Maybe partly because I had lived in Africa for 11 years, and while I didn't actually personally witness initiation rites, I was aware that that had been very much a tradition for many years there.
Dave Kraybill: And in some
Dave Kraybill: some
Dave Kraybill: communities, not very many, but some communities
Dave Kraybill: still practice.
Dave Kraybill: So
Dave Kraybill: I tended to see initiation as something that other people do
Dave Kraybill: under very, very different
Dave Kraybill: circumstances from my own.
Dave Kraybill: The way I've come to see it now, Brian, is
Dave Kraybill: we're constantly going through periods in our lives where we need
Dave Kraybill: initiation.
Dave Kraybill: I mean, I I
Dave Kraybill: last
Dave Kraybill: year I did the outer rites of passage, and I realized I really needed to be initiated into the last
Dave Kraybill: Phase of my life.
Dave Kraybill: Because
Dave Kraybill: when we do that, when we recognize where we are, you know, maybe on the timeline, but also maybe
Dave Kraybill: in terms of the emotional and spiritual things that are happening in our lives.
Dave Kraybill: When we
Dave Kraybill: we recognize that we're at a threshold and we're moving through what in Illuman and
Dave Kraybill: other settings is often called
Dave Kraybill: liminal space, that is
Dave Kraybill: times when
Dave Kraybill: things
Dave Kraybill: are really turned upside down and we don't know what the heck is going on
Dave Kraybill: and what direction to go.
Dave Kraybill: When we're at those points, it really, really
Dave Kraybill: helps a lot.
Dave Kraybill: To acknowledge that we're going through
Dave Kraybill: a difficult, complicated, even painful
Dave Kraybill: time.
Dave Kraybill: And I guess
Dave Kraybill: the final thing I would say about
Dave Kraybill: that question, Brian, is that
Dave Kraybill: I often think these days about how my life
Dave Kraybill: May have been changed if I had gone through the MROP, say, in my early twenties.
Dave Kraybill: I was
Dave Kraybill: 24 when I got married, and you know, I'd go
Dave Kraybill: through a lot of things, my teenage years, my early twenties.
Dave Kraybill: So much was changing so
Dave Kraybill: fast.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: one thing that
Dave Kraybill: really
Dave Kraybill: a memory I often have
Dave Kraybill: was how angry I got at the patriarchal models of families that was presented to me.
Dave Kraybill: back
Dave Kraybill: then.
Dave Kraybill: And it wasn't just in my community.
Dave Kraybill: It was pretty much across our society, though
Dave Kraybill: my own ethnic
Dave Kraybill: religious subcommunity has
Dave Kraybill: had its own variants of that.
Dave Kraybill: I
Dave Kraybill: felt really angry.
Dave Kraybill: I did not want to go and be, quote, the head of a home.
Dave Kraybill: You know, I wanted a partnership.
Dave Kraybill: And I think
Dave Kraybill: if I had had the opportunity to go through a rites of passage, I think it would have kind of
Dave Kraybill: grounded me.
Dave Kraybill: And I think I would have been
Dave Kraybill: been able to say
Dave Kraybill: something
Dave Kraybill: big
Dave Kraybill: is going on here.
Dave Kraybill: I would have reached out to other men.
Dave Kraybill: I think I would have begun to touch
Dave Kraybill: My pain as a man.
Dave Kraybill: I mean, you know,
Dave Kraybill: at that point, I hadn't experienced nearly as much pain as I did when I actually did the MROP.
Dave Kraybill: But I would have at least
Dave Kraybill: I
Dave Kraybill: had had some pain in my life, and I would have at least.
Dave Kraybill: begun to
Dave Kraybill: understand
Dave Kraybill: that
Dave Kraybill: pain is a major part of my life.
Dave Kraybill: Because
Dave Kraybill: as I look back, I think the
Dave Kraybill: denial of pain, even
Dave Kraybill: denial of death
Dave Kraybill: Those are forces that really
Dave Kraybill: had a huge impact on me.
Dave Kraybill: And initiation, the kind of initiation we do in the MROP, I think really prepares us for that.
Dave Kraybill: I also have to say, I think
Dave Kraybill: it's really difficult to do initiations, especially for young people in our society.
Dave Kraybill: Our society is so not oriented towards doing
Dave Kraybill: initiation rites.
Dave Kraybill: for anybody, but especially for young people.
Dave Kraybill: Culturally, it's a huge challenge, and yet
Dave Kraybill: I think it's so important.
Brian Mueller: Thank you so much for your thoughtful responses to all of my questions.
Brian Mueller: I
Brian Mueller: just really have one more question, and I think you are situated uniquely to kind of
Brian Mueller: maybe
Brian Mueller: offer some advice
Brian Mueller: You've done a lot of intense work participating in the men's rites of passage, then doing the initiator program and then following that up with an elder rites experience.
Brian Mueller: And I'll note that you are in another week going to go back to the Elders
Brian Mueller: Weave
Brian Mueller: and help support that event.
Brian Mueller: If a man about your age,
Brian Mueller: retirement age, came to you and said, Dave, I'm thinking about doing a men's rites of passage, but he also is aware that there's an Elder Rites of Passage Now
Brian Mueller: program.
Brian Mueller: What
Brian Mueller: kind of consultation would you give him?
Brian Mueller: How would you help him discern whether or not to do a men's rites of passage or an elder rites of passage?
Dave Kraybill: Wow, good
Dave Kraybill: question.
Dave Kraybill: It's a hard one to answer
Dave Kraybill: because both of them, in my experience, are
Dave Kraybill: incredibly worthwhile.
Dave Kraybill: I think it would really depend on where the man is.
Dave Kraybill: If the man
Dave Kraybill: has
Dave Kraybill: the inclination, you know,
Dave Kraybill: at least a modest amount of energy, has things he still wants to get done, I think my recommendation
Dave Kraybill: in life, I mean, you know
Dave Kraybill: ,
Dave Kraybill: Whether it's a hobby or travel
Dave Kraybill: or whatever it is, or
Dave Kraybill: wanting to enter into another relationship or something,
Dave Kraybill: my recommendation would be to do
Dave Kraybill: the men's rites of passage first, if you can.
Dave Kraybill: On the other hand,
Dave Kraybill: there are people that do do them in the opposite order.
Dave Kraybill: And in the end, I don't think it matters that much
Dave Kraybill: I would say this.
Dave Kraybill: The men's rites of passage
Dave Kraybill: opens a door to going back to earlier things in your life
Dave Kraybill: more than the elder rites of passages.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: so
Dave Kraybill: if there are things you want to do, and also I would add, if you have some sense that
Dave Kraybill: there were wounds, some real wounds back
Dave Kraybill: there, it could have been small stuff or big stuff.
Dave Kraybill: It's
Dave Kraybill: it's basically what we call trauma these days, which we know does not just come from big events.
Dave Kraybill: It
Dave Kraybill: it's the sort of thing that we get obsessed about, that runs in our mind over and over again, that maybe keeps us awake at night.
Dave Kraybill: If a man has
Dave Kraybill: some of that pain from the past
Dave Kraybill: and is
Dave Kraybill: really
Dave Kraybill: the sort of modestly big stuff that he wants to do left in his
Dave Kraybill: still in his life, I'd say do the men's rites of passage.
Dave Kraybill: On the other hand, if neither of those really apply, then I'd say do the Elder Rites of Passage.
Dave Kraybill: And I would say there's a fairly strong possibility that after doing the Elder Rites of Passage, you might say, wow, this was so good
Dave Kraybill: I now want to go back and do the men's rites of passage.
Dave Kraybill: The order is not all that critical.
Brian Mueller: Brother, thank you so much for your time.
Brian Mueller: I really appreciate your, again, your thoughtfulness, your vulnerability,
Brian Mueller: your passion for this work and all that you've given to the Illuman
Brian Mueller: community.
Brian Mueller: It really, it really is amazing.
Brian Mueller: And
Brian Mueller: I've learned a lot by listening to you today.
Brian Mueller: And so
Brian Mueller: thank you so much.
Dave Kraybill: Thank you, Brian.
Dave Kraybill: It's a blessing to be able to talk with you.
Dave Kraybill: And I appreciate so much
Dave Kraybill: these interviews.
Dave Kraybill: I've listened to a number of them.
Dave Kraybill: And
Dave Kraybill: one thing I would say is if a man is considering
Dave Kraybill: Doing the men's rites of passage.
Dave Kraybill: Listen to these podcasts.
Brian Mueller: Thank you so much.
Brian Mueller: I love you, brother, and I hope to see you soon, perhaps at Awaken this year.
Dave Kraybill: That's mutual.
Dave Kraybill: Thank you, Brian.
Brian Mueller: For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul
Brian Mueller: and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites.
Brian Mueller: The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six.
Brian Mueller: While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since twenty twelve Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world.
Brian Mueller: To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return
Brian Mueller: by Richard Rohr.
Brian Mueller: If you are ready to make your
Brian Mueller: rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six.
Brian Mueller: The first is in Northern California, May
Brian Mueller: thirteenth through the seventeenth
Brian Mueller: the second in the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth, and in Illinois, August twelfth through the sixteenth.
Brian Mueller: There is one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth.
Brian Mueller: And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is an MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth.
Brian Mueller: You can find details and registration information at Illuman dot
Brian Mueller: org slash mrop
Brian Mueller: or
Brian Mueller: Illuman dot org slash events.
Brian Mueller: Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico.
Brian Mueller: You can find more at Illuman dot org slash awaken.
Brian Mueller: Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence.
Brian Mueller: If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life.
Brian Mueller: Download the Practicing Presence app for free
Brian Mueller: at choosingpresence dot
Brian Mueller: org
Brian Mueller: slash
Brian Mueller: app.
Brian Mueller: It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today.
Brian Mueller: Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP.
Brian Mueller: Until next time, brothers, stay present.