WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:12.480 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:13.240 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:18.520 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:25.560 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:25.060 --> 00:00:33.860 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what changed afterward. 00:00:33.860 --> 00:00:35.940 Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. 00:00:35.940 --> 00:00:38.980 This podcast is brought to you by choosing Presence. 00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:42.700 We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:48.860 In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:54.920 If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot 00:00:55.080 --> 00:00:56.840 org slash app. 00:00:56.740 --> 00:01:07.220 Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and 00:01:07.380 --> 00:01:08.660 soul. 00:01:07.960 --> 00:01:12.840 On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:19.000 Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:01:25.600 --> 00:01:27.440 My guest today is Al Selder. 00:01:27.440 --> 00:01:28.640 Brother, I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:32.080 Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. 00:01:31.880 --> 00:01:33.080 That's good to be here, Brian. 00:01:33.080 --> 00:01:33.320 I was 00:01:33.720 --> 00:01:37.000 excited to get your email for the invite to have this opportunity. 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:38.840 So let's see where this goes. 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:39.240 Yeah. 00:01:39.240 --> 00:01:42.600 Al, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:01:42.040 --> 00:01:42.360 Currently 00:01:42.600 --> 00:01:48.840 living here in Chandler, Arizona, which is one of the suburbs outside of Phoenix, and I've been out here since 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:50.840 1981. 00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:52.040 And so currently I'm a 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:54.280 retired engineer. 00:01:54.360 --> 00:01:54.600 And 00:01:54.840 --> 00:01:55.800 enjoying 00:01:56.280 --> 00:01:57.960 that time that that gives me with 00:01:58.520 --> 00:02:00.040 our three grandkids and 00:02:00.360 --> 00:02:03.080 my wife of almost 46 years. 00:02:03.300 --> 00:02:03.540 And 00:02:03.780 --> 00:02:05.140 my kids live out here, 00:02:05.460 --> 00:02:07.540 obviously with the grandkids being close by. 00:02:07.540 --> 00:02:07.700 So 00:02:08.020 --> 00:02:09.460 just enjoying those times. 00:02:09.460 --> 00:02:09.780 And then 00:02:10.740 --> 00:02:11.300 I also like 00:02:11.620 --> 00:02:13.220 spending time up in Flagstaff. 00:02:13.220 --> 00:02:14.580 My brother and I and us 00:02:14.900 --> 00:02:17.620 have a house up there, so it's nice to get out of the heat. 00:02:17.440 --> 00:02:20.800 And so I just stay busy kind of locally, doing a little bit of traveling around and 00:02:21.040 --> 00:02:22.160 and different things. 00:02:22.160 --> 00:02:22.319 But 00:02:22.480 --> 00:02:23.920 yeah, never a dull moment. 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:24.480 I never 00:02:24.720 --> 00:02:26.800 find myself getting bored. 00:02:26.340 --> 00:02:28.820 Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. 00:02:28.820 --> 00:02:30.740 The MROP is a unique experience. 00:02:30.740 --> 00:02:33.540 It's not a retreat or a workshop, it's an initiation. 00:02:33.540 --> 00:02:38.580 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. 00:02:38.260 --> 00:02:40.980 Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the beginning. 00:02:40.980 --> 00:02:42.900 When and where did you make your rites, Al? 00:02:43.220 --> 00:02:44.500 So I did my 00:02:44.740 --> 00:02:46.420 rites of passage in two 00:02:46.660 --> 00:02:47.540 thousand and five 00:02:47.700 --> 00:02:51.540 in Oracle, Arizona, which is a small town northeast 00:02:51.980 --> 00:02:53.340 of Tucson 00:02:53.820 --> 00:02:56.060 and at a YMCA camp down there. 00:02:56.460 --> 00:02:58.700 And who was the weaver and about how many men were there? 00:02:59.660 --> 00:03:00.540 The weaver was 00:03:01.180 --> 00:03:02.460 Richard Rohr. 00:03:02.460 --> 00:03:03.660 Richard, this was 00:03:04.540 --> 00:03:05.580 one of the first 00:03:06.160 --> 00:03:07.040 MROPs 00:03:07.200 --> 00:03:08.320 outside of 00:03:08.640 --> 00:03:09.920 Ghost Ranch. 00:03:09.920 --> 00:03:11.760 And it was something that was 00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:12.960 brought on 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:15.920 by a group of men that went in the 00:03:16.799 --> 00:03:22.319 In 2003, I think, to Ghost Ranch, and we're just really on fire for 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:24.720 the work that Richard was doing. 00:03:25.540 --> 00:03:26.820 Basically, worked out to have 00:03:26.980 --> 00:03:30.340 to expand this to have it here in Arizona. 00:03:30.340 --> 00:03:30.980 And so 00:03:31.300 --> 00:03:31.860 I had 00:03:32.340 --> 00:03:36.100 maybe we'll talk about this a little later about the invitation process on that. 00:03:36.460 --> 00:03:37.180 But anyways, for 00:03:37.420 --> 00:03:38.460 again, Richard was 00:03:39.100 --> 00:03:40.460 the weaver. 00:03:40.460 --> 00:03:40.780 And 00:03:41.420 --> 00:03:42.860 let's see, how many men were there? 00:03:43.260 --> 00:03:43.660 Probably 00:03:43.820 --> 00:03:44.140 had 00:03:44.460 --> 00:03:48.140 about 40 or 45 men being initiated. 00:03:47.640 --> 00:03:49.480 And then they had the team a support team 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:50.120 to 00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:51.560 put the event on. 00:03:51.959 --> 00:03:57.000 Now, when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image that comes forth for you? 00:03:57.880 --> 00:03:57.960 So 00:03:58.200 --> 00:03:58.600 first, 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:02.040 if you're living in the desert for all these years, but 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:03.800 primarily focused on 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:05.880 the city area. 00:04:05.820 --> 00:04:05.980 being 00:04:06.220 --> 00:04:06.860 out there 00:04:07.260 --> 00:04:07.500 really 00:04:07.820 --> 00:04:08.700 had that sense 00:04:08.940 --> 00:04:09.580 we always hear about 00:04:09.740 --> 00:04:11.420 having that desert experience. 00:04:11.420 --> 00:04:11.580 So 00:04:11.820 --> 00:04:14.780 I think there was a little bit of a mystery there. 00:04:14.500 --> 00:04:16.260 So the impression initially was 00:04:16.500 --> 00:04:17.060 obviously 00:04:17.380 --> 00:04:20.579 didn't know anything about what the event was going to unfold. 00:04:20.579 --> 00:04:22.580 That was kind of intentional. 00:04:22.520 --> 00:04:22.760 And 00:04:22.920 --> 00:04:24.840 so it was just taken by the 00:04:25.080 --> 00:04:29.240 desert and a desert that I was maybe in at that time that I wasn't even aware of, which became very 00:04:29.640 --> 00:04:30.040 clear 00:04:30.200 --> 00:04:34.040 as the events unfolded for that few days. 00:04:33.440 --> 00:04:38.000 Broadly speaking, as you think back over the entire weekend experience, what was that like for you? 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:40.960 I've done a lot of retreats over the years. 00:04:41.280 --> 00:04:43.520 And as you mentioned in the intro, 00:04:43.760 --> 00:04:45.520 the MROP is really 00:04:45.960 --> 00:04:51.720 Even though you're there with a group of men and you're interfacing, it's a unique experience for each individual. 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:52.599 And that's really what 00:04:53.080 --> 00:04:53.879 I found. 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:55.560 You know, it was things that 00:04:55.960 --> 00:04:57.319 welded up. 00:04:56.740 --> 00:04:57.140 in me 00:04:57.380 --> 00:04:58.020 that I 00:04:58.420 --> 00:04:58.980 hadn't 00:04:59.700 --> 00:05:00.820 hadn't for many, many 00:05:01.140 --> 00:05:01.700 years. 00:05:01.860 --> 00:05:02.340 It was just a 00:05:02.740 --> 00:05:07.380 an opportunity to really do a lot of self-reflection. 00:05:07.180 --> 00:05:07.340 on 00:05:07.900 --> 00:05:10.300 where I've been, what I needed to get 00:05:10.460 --> 00:05:11.980 to release. 00:05:11.980 --> 00:05:12.300 And 00:05:12.620 --> 00:05:13.340 it was just 00:05:13.820 --> 00:05:14.940 again, I think that was the 00:05:15.100 --> 00:05:15.820 that was what 00:05:16.060 --> 00:05:17.660 really impressed me early on. 00:05:17.660 --> 00:05:19.420 And then having the opportunity to 00:05:19.820 --> 00:05:20.540 be in the 00:05:20.860 --> 00:05:27.580 you know, the council circles and home groups as they were referred to at that time, to be able to kind of open up and process all that was 00:05:28.060 --> 00:05:30.620 really a unique experience. 00:05:30.039 --> 00:05:39.560 And without sharing anything that you might consider too personal or even confidential, was there a particular experience at the Wrights, or was there a particular encounter with maybe another man 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:40.919 or your home group that 00:05:41.080 --> 00:05:42.919 really stands out to you? 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:44.160 Trying to think back on that. 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:45.280 I don't really 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:48.320 the home group experience was very powerful. 00:05:48.320 --> 00:05:49.360 I don't have any really 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:51.680 recollections from that. 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:51.320 And 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:52.360 maybe we'll get into this 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:59.480 a little later, but I definitely had a very profound experience on the day in the desert. 00:05:58.860 --> 00:05:59.820 So, I don't know if that's a 00:05:59.980 --> 00:06:02.220 further on question or if it's something I should elaborate on. 00:06:02.380 --> 00:06:03.820 No, please go ahead and elaborate. 00:06:03.820 --> 00:06:04.140 Yeah. 00:06:04.460 --> 00:06:04.940 So, 00:06:05.420 --> 00:06:06.780 it was really interesting 00:06:07.020 --> 00:06:07.980 as. 00:06:07.940 --> 00:06:10.660 is that we were preparing for that, and 00:06:11.380 --> 00:06:13.460 Richard had us write some 00:06:13.860 --> 00:06:17.300 some guides down along the way, and I picked 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:20.120 Some of the obvious ones, I think it was the Pope at that time. 00:06:20.520 --> 00:06:21.640 I think it was Pope John Paul II 00:06:21.880 --> 00:06:23.080 was still the Pope. 00:06:23.080 --> 00:06:25.560 I always have an affinity for Saint Joseph 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:27.400 as the patron saint of the 00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:30.760 carpenters and those sorts of things, and many others. 00:06:30.520 --> 00:06:31.080 But I'm 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:32.440 enjoying woodwork and 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:33.160 that myself. 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:33.720 I thought, oh, St. 00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:35.000 Joseph's would be good. 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:35.240 And 00:06:35.400 --> 00:06:36.120 then I had 00:06:36.760 --> 00:06:37.080 obviously 00:06:37.640 --> 00:06:39.800 Jesus as one of the guides. 00:06:39.539 --> 00:06:41.539 But then, you know, there was a fi a fifth one. 00:06:41.620 --> 00:06:42.419 I said, You know what? 00:06:42.419 --> 00:06:42.900 I'm going to 00:06:43.220 --> 00:06:43.860 have my 00:06:44.180 --> 00:06:47.379 father-in-law, who had passed away several years before 00:06:47.539 --> 00:06:47.780 Lou 00:06:48.020 --> 00:06:48.900 Lou. 00:06:48.900 --> 00:06:51.780 At the time, I didn't really think much of it. 00:06:51.699 --> 00:06:51.940 So 00:06:52.259 --> 00:06:52.740 anyways, 00:06:53.139 --> 00:06:54.419 so I had those guides and I 00:06:54.659 --> 00:06:55.300 you know, so 00:06:55.699 --> 00:06:57.220 made my way out to for that 00:06:57.940 --> 00:06:58.580 experience 00:06:58.900 --> 00:07:03.780 and just remembered sitting there and going through the process and those sorts of things. 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:04.040 And 00:07:04.280 --> 00:07:05.240 all of a sudden 00:07:05.479 --> 00:07:07.400 I started singing 00:07:07.720 --> 00:07:07.880 Que 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:08.680 sera! 00:07:08.919 --> 00:07:10.280 sera! Whatever will 00:07:10.440 --> 00:07:11.639 be, will be, and I go 00:07:12.039 --> 00:07:15.080 What the heck am I singing a Doris Day song for? 00:07:15.080 --> 00:07:15.720 But everything 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:17.720 just came to a point of clarity. 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:18.599 And I think what 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:19.800 really hit me 00:07:20.380 --> 00:07:20.620 is 00:07:20.940 --> 00:07:21.259 that 00:07:21.580 --> 00:07:26.460 and it was actually having Kathy's dad there, Lou, is that he 00:07:27.020 --> 00:07:30.620 definitely had a lot of brokenness in his life, and he di could 00:07:30.940 --> 00:07:31.500 really have 00:07:31.820 --> 00:07:32.139 used 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:35.280 this experience and others that I've 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:37.600 had over the years with 00:07:37.840 --> 00:07:38.560 Illuman 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:39.120 and 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:41.759 council work and those sorts of things 00:07:42.039 --> 00:07:45.159 I just had a strong sense at that point that I was 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:48.440 that I needed to continue with this work. 00:07:48.440 --> 00:07:50.520 And since 2005, I 00:07:51.020 --> 00:07:54.220 Up until recently, I have been very involved with 00:07:54.380 --> 00:07:55.020 Illuman 00:07:55.180 --> 00:07:55.580 and the 00:07:55.740 --> 00:07:58.060 Arizona chapter to make sure this 00:07:58.380 --> 00:07:58.940 opportunity 00:07:59.180 --> 00:08:01.580 was available for other men. 00:08:01.139 --> 00:08:04.660 And even though I'm not actively involved with the Arizona chapter, 00:08:05.220 --> 00:08:08.340 at this point, I'm still involved in a 00:08:09.220 --> 00:08:09.940 council circle 00:08:10.100 --> 00:08:10.979 myself. 00:08:10.979 --> 00:08:13.699 I'm very involved in our church. 00:08:13.400 --> 00:08:13.720 And 00:08:13.960 --> 00:08:21.000 the interesting thing is, I just found out from my son, is that he's interesting in forming a council circle. 00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:23.640 He's talked about wanting to do something like that. 00:08:23.640 --> 00:08:25.160 He says, I just don't know how to do it. 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:25.880 And he's just 00:08:26.400 --> 00:08:29.200 Told me last night that that's something that 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:34.640 he feels called to do, and he's been talking to some guys about that. 00:08:34.419 --> 00:08:35.860 ironically, two weeks ago 00:08:36.419 --> 00:08:37.940 was brought up in my council 00:08:38.099 --> 00:08:39.060 circle that 00:08:39.699 --> 00:08:41.060 of his desire to do that 00:08:41.219 --> 00:08:41.860 unbeknownst 00:08:42.180 --> 00:08:44.660 that he was in this process. 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:48.960 And so when he brings this up to me last night, I go, You won't believe this. 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:53.600 So when I started this, you wonder, well, what impact are you going to have with this? 00:08:53.600 --> 00:08:54.480 And I always have 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:55.840 felt like, you know 00:08:56.040 --> 00:08:57.160 if I do this 00:08:57.480 --> 00:08:57.800 and 00:08:58.040 --> 00:09:02.680 I bring one man to some sort of a transformative experience where he has changed 00:09:03.880 --> 00:09:06.760 his life, then I feel like I have accomplished something. 00:09:06.760 --> 00:09:06.920 And 00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:10.519 if we all had that same goal of touching one person, 00:09:10.640 --> 00:09:14.320 and making a difference in their life, we would all be touched. 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:15.440 And over the years, 00:09:15.680 --> 00:09:16.320 I've been 00:09:16.560 --> 00:09:17.600 blessed with many 00:09:17.920 --> 00:09:20.800 men coming and says, hey, you know, that invitation that you 00:09:21.040 --> 00:09:21.360 had 00:09:21.839 --> 00:09:22.079 for 00:09:22.560 --> 00:09:23.839 to go to the MROP 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:25.920 or to do this or that 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:28.079 was such a life-changing experience. 00:09:28.079 --> 00:09:30.880 I felt, okay, I feel like I've accomplished 00:09:31.839 --> 00:09:33.759 what I set out to do. 00:09:33.640 --> 00:09:34.120 And I did 00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:35.800 one little story that I 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:40.360 you know, that often many people have heard is about the little girl that's going down the beach 00:09:40.680 --> 00:09:46.200 and there's all these starfish that have washed up and she's picking them up and throwing them into the water. 00:09:45.940 --> 00:09:47.540 And this old man comes by and says, 00:09:47.780 --> 00:09:48.260 What are you doing? 00:09:48.420 --> 00:09:48.660 He says, 00:09:48.900 --> 00:09:51.540 I'm throwing these starfish back into the water. 00:09:52.580 --> 00:09:54.500 And he goes, Well, how are you going to make any difference? 00:09:54.500 --> 00:09:56.580 There's thousands of them out here. 00:09:56.259 --> 00:09:58.339 She says it makes a difference for this one. 00:09:58.339 --> 00:09:59.459 And I just have always 00:09:59.699 --> 00:10:01.540 remembered that little story and 00:10:01.779 --> 00:10:02.259 I think 00:10:02.660 --> 00:10:03.459 used that as 00:10:03.699 --> 00:10:05.540 I say, yeah, we don't always have to do 00:10:06.100 --> 00:10:06.819 great things. 00:10:06.819 --> 00:10:08.180 Sometimes these little things 00:10:08.339 --> 00:10:10.500 all have some sort of an impact. 00:10:10.140 --> 00:10:11.340 Thank you so much for that, Al. 00:10:11.340 --> 00:10:14.380 What I heard you saying was that the day that you spent in nature 00:10:14.540 --> 00:10:20.940 at the Immense Rites of Passage, where you were offered the opportunity to invite some guides to go with you out there, and you selected your 00:10:21.620 --> 00:10:21.700 your 00:10:21.860 --> 00:10:25.620 late father-in-law is one of those guides, that really led you 00:10:25.940 --> 00:10:26.500 to want 00:10:26.740 --> 00:10:29.380 to bring this experience to more men. 00:10:29.380 --> 00:10:30.260 Yes. 00:10:30.579 --> 00:10:30.980 Yeah, 00:10:31.139 --> 00:10:31.300 just 00:10:31.699 --> 00:10:32.579 you know, when 00:10:32.740 --> 00:10:34.819 the invitation I got was from one of the 00:10:35.220 --> 00:10:38.259 men that went in that group in 2003, 00:10:38.420 --> 00:10:38.819 says, just 00:10:38.980 --> 00:10:40.500 trust me and go. 00:10:41.700 --> 00:10:43.060 Obviously, I did. 00:10:43.220 --> 00:10:43.860 I didn't know what 00:10:44.180 --> 00:10:44.820 to expect. 00:10:44.820 --> 00:10:45.620 So, this, 00:10:45.779 --> 00:10:49.140 and over the years, again, of doing other types of retreats 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:54.920 I've never had an experience that was so deep as I had from the MROP. 00:10:55.000 --> 00:10:55.480 I think 00:10:55.880 --> 00:10:58.600 a lot of it's just the way the whole weekend is 00:10:58.920 --> 00:11:00.520 structured. 00:11:00.040 --> 00:11:05.000 So I always tell men, I said, when they're discerning, I said, you know, the way I look at it is 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:05.560 you get 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:09.399 a point in your life and you just feel like you're stuck. 00:11:09.020 --> 00:11:09.260 And 00:11:09.580 --> 00:11:09.900 sometimes 00:11:10.060 --> 00:11:12.540 we call that a midlife crisis or whatever it is. 00:11:12.540 --> 00:11:15.580 But you've got so much baggage that you need 00:11:15.900 --> 00:11:16.220 to 00:11:16.540 --> 00:11:16.860 sort 00:11:17.180 --> 00:11:17.500 through 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:18.720 And I say, 00:11:18.880 --> 00:11:19.760 you know, the MROP 00:11:19.920 --> 00:11:27.920 is an opportunity to identify that, release it, grieve over it, and then be open to see what you're called to do next. 00:11:27.720 --> 00:11:31.800 And I think that's a, for me, that is how I summarize the 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:32.680 experience 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:33.000 is 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:35.160 just an opportunity to 00:11:35.620 --> 00:11:36.500 basically, 00:11:36.899 --> 00:11:38.580 just get in touch with yourself. 00:11:39.060 --> 00:11:39.700 We don't give that 00:11:40.019 --> 00:11:42.980 that type of time to ourselves very often. 00:11:42.980 --> 00:11:44.660 And just to have that time to 00:11:44.899 --> 00:11:47.140 really do an assessment of where you are 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:51.200 release stuff that's no longer serving you, and 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:53.920 then just be open to what's next. 00:11:53.920 --> 00:11:57.120 I think I followed that path pretty closely 00:11:57.280 --> 00:11:59.040 in my experience. 00:11:58.740 --> 00:12:02.180 So let me take you back a little bit to before you attended the Rites. 00:12:02.180 --> 00:12:06.420 What was going on in your life at the time that you decided to register for the Rites? 00:12:06.420 --> 00:12:10.340 Or what made you decide, yes, this is an experience I want to do? 00:12:09.940 --> 00:12:11.140 Well, at that time 00:12:11.700 --> 00:12:12.260 I was 00:12:12.420 --> 00:12:19.940 in a fairly large parish here in Arizona, and we had a very active men's ministry. 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:19.400 And 00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:21.320 got involved in that 00:12:21.560 --> 00:12:23.080 and just in various roles 00:12:23.560 --> 00:12:24.920 throughout the years. 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:27.080 And of course, at that time, 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:30.200 I was at the peak of my career, a lot of stuff going on 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:32.120 with the job. 00:12:31.839 --> 00:12:33.120 Family was growing 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:34.639 and all sorts of things. 00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:39.920 Can't say there was anything that really specifically said, I really needed this event. 00:12:39.620 --> 00:12:39.779 other 00:12:40.100 --> 00:12:40.339 than 00:12:41.380 --> 00:12:42.500 curiosity and 00:12:42.740 --> 00:12:45.300 again the invitation to just trust and to 00:12:45.540 --> 00:12:48.580 go through it because of the experience these other men had. 00:12:48.580 --> 00:12:48.740 And 00:12:48.980 --> 00:12:49.620 really it it 00:12:49.779 --> 00:12:50.260 I was 00:12:50.620 --> 00:12:51.740 Surprised what 00:12:51.980 --> 00:12:52.620 came up. 00:12:52.620 --> 00:12:52.700 So 00:12:52.860 --> 00:13:01.820 there wasn't any specific thing that I could say, yeah, I was dealing with some maybe addictions or those sorts of things, and I just needed to have this opportunity. 00:13:01.540 --> 00:13:02.180 But it was more of 00:13:02.339 --> 00:13:04.339 just an openness and a curiosity. 00:13:04.339 --> 00:13:05.860 It was also very profound. 00:13:06.339 --> 00:13:14.740 When you made the decision to attend and you told your wife, maybe your family, friends, maybe even a spiritual director, what was their reaction? 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:17.760 My wife didn't necessarily completely understand it. 00:13:17.760 --> 00:13:20.640 In fact, that's still a little bit of a struggle, even to this day, some of 00:13:20.800 --> 00:13:22.400 the men's work. 00:13:21.959 --> 00:13:22.440 And I'm going to 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:23.160 try to explain. 00:13:23.320 --> 00:13:25.959 She's been to a couple of talks that Richard has done. 00:13:25.959 --> 00:13:26.120 And 00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:27.480 I think she doesn't 00:13:27.880 --> 00:13:30.279 understand why guys need to maybe do this sort of thing. 00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:30.839 And I think that's 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:32.920 one of the things Richard actually talks about 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:33.959 is that. 00:13:33.740 --> 00:13:36.540 men sometimes need this initiation 00:13:37.180 --> 00:13:37.500 in our 00:13:37.740 --> 00:13:38.940 in the whole male 00:13:39.260 --> 00:13:39.980 history 00:13:40.300 --> 00:13:41.100 is something we 00:13:41.340 --> 00:13:43.500 that has just been missing of late. 00:13:43.500 --> 00:13:46.300 And that women tend to do this naturally. 00:13:45.940 --> 00:13:48.260 In fact, we just had this conversation just last night 00:13:48.580 --> 00:13:51.700 when my son said he wants to get this group together. 00:13:51.700 --> 00:13:51.860 So 00:13:52.660 --> 00:13:52.980 Yeah. 00:13:52.980 --> 00:13:58.180 Now, when you went to the rites, did you drive alone or were you with a group from your parish? 00:13:57.920 --> 00:14:00.480 I drove down with one other man. 00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:01.519 A lot of people remember 00:14:01.680 --> 00:14:02.560 Jim Scher. 00:14:02.560 --> 00:14:06.880 And Jim and I drove down together, and we drove back together. 00:14:06.440 --> 00:14:07.480 So I did not go with 00:14:07.880 --> 00:14:10.600 other than with Jim, I did not go with anybody else 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:12.680 from our parish at that time. 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:19.000 Did you and Jim have conversations about the rites, both coming and going, about what you might anticipate? 00:14:18.800 --> 00:14:22.320 Not so much going, because I think we both went in with 00:14:22.800 --> 00:14:32.160 at that time and probably still is, is, you know, yeah, we could have read Adam's Return, and which would have been good, but the invitation was just to go with an open mind. 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:31.880 And 00:14:32.680 --> 00:14:33.000 just 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:33.560 let 00:14:33.800 --> 00:14:34.440 the spirit 00:14:34.680 --> 00:14:35.320 work. 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:38.840 But definitely on the way back, in fact, we were sharing so much of what 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:40.040 our experiences was. 00:14:40.040 --> 00:14:41.480 We missed a turn and we ended up 00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:44.840 driving fifty miles out of our way. 00:14:44.560 --> 00:14:46.240 So when you arrived at Oracle 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:46.720 and 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:53.680 the rites began and you entered into the rites, was there something that you were hoping for, something that you wanted to be initiated into? 00:14:53.520 --> 00:14:55.840 I was open to what could come up. 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:56.480 And it was really 00:14:56.880 --> 00:14:59.200 the affirmation to continue 00:14:59.520 --> 00:14:59.760 this 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:00.720 work. 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:02.480 As a matter of fact, 00:15:02.820 --> 00:15:05.220 One other thing that, as I was sitting there 00:15:05.620 --> 00:15:07.540 in the desert, I had this 00:15:08.100 --> 00:15:09.620 vision of 00:15:09.940 --> 00:15:10.900 these quaking 00:15:11.140 --> 00:15:14.020 leaves and a running stream. 00:15:13.540 --> 00:15:15.620 And it just kept reoccurring. 00:15:16.420 --> 00:15:21.140 And so afterwards, I was sharing this with Brad, and he says, 00:15:21.300 --> 00:15:23.300 you know, that's Aravaipa. 00:15:23.300 --> 00:15:23.459 And 00:15:23.700 --> 00:15:24.019 I said, 00:15:24.180 --> 00:15:25.220 really, I said, where's that? 00:15:25.220 --> 00:15:25.300 I 00:15:25.540 --> 00:15:27.380 didn't know anything about that. 00:15:27.140 --> 00:15:28.580 Well, he was sharing his story 00:15:28.740 --> 00:15:29.380 that he was 00:15:29.540 --> 00:15:31.700 in his MROP experience, he had these 00:15:31.940 --> 00:15:37.140 visions of these golden vistas, and he was sharing that with Richard Rohrer. 00:15:36.640 --> 00:15:40.000 And Richard said, Oh, that's air of Aravaipa. 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:40.560 And so 00:15:40.800 --> 00:15:42.480 we made a trip down there 00:15:42.640 --> 00:15:43.360 and I think it was 00:15:43.680 --> 00:15:44.000 it was 00:15:44.160 --> 00:15:44.480 a two 00:15:44.640 --> 00:15:46.960 thousand six time frame. 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:47.960 And as we drove up here 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:53.880 and I saw the Aravaipa Creek, the cottonwood trees lining that, that's exactly what I saw. 00:15:53.880 --> 00:15:58.360 So there was a really a mystical experience that occurred. 00:15:57.920 --> 00:15:58.079 So 00:15:58.399 --> 00:15:59.839 if this background shows up in 00:16:00.160 --> 00:16:02.639 the podcast, this is the Brandenburg Peak 00:16:02.800 --> 00:16:06.560 north of the property there at Aravaipa Ranch. 00:16:06.140 --> 00:16:09.180 And this is what Brad's experience was. 00:16:09.180 --> 00:16:11.980 There's also this creek that runs right past the 00:16:12.140 --> 00:16:12.780 ranch that 00:16:13.020 --> 00:16:17.260 we have done many MROPs since mine in 2005. 00:16:17.260 --> 00:16:19.340 And it's just a very, very special 00:16:19.660 --> 00:16:20.300 place. 00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:21.399 I just want to make a note here. 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:22.680 You're speaking about Brad Kuluris. 00:16:22.680 --> 00:16:25.320 He's the original convener for the Arizona chapter. 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:26.839 He preceded you in that role. 00:16:26.839 --> 00:16:27.320 Yes. 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:29.720 Did you meet him at the MROP? 00:16:29.540 --> 00:16:30.820 No, I knew Brad actually 00:16:30.980 --> 00:16:31.140 from 00:16:31.300 --> 00:16:32.260 our our common 00:16:32.500 --> 00:16:33.459 ties with the 00:16:33.620 --> 00:16:34.580 men's ministry 00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:37.060 at the parish we were both attending. 00:16:37.060 --> 00:16:39.220 And once we had this, we realized 00:16:39.500 --> 00:16:42.459 Actually, it was post the same time frame, 00:16:42.940 --> 00:16:49.339 a group formed in Arizona, and we became one of the first chapters. 00:16:48.920 --> 00:16:51.240 that we're continuing to do the work of 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:52.680 Richard in doing 00:16:52.839 --> 00:16:56.120 subsequent MROPs here in Arizona. 00:16:56.120 --> 00:16:57.240 And we've done them 00:16:57.560 --> 00:17:00.440 the last one we did was in 2024. 00:17:00.140 --> 00:17:02.620 And so we've done, gosh, probably a dozen of 00:17:03.180 --> 00:17:05.100 events down here, and 00:17:05.339 --> 00:17:08.860 each one unique and each one very special. 00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:11.720 Now it sounds to me like you went into the MROP in a very open 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:12.679 minded way and 00:17:12.919 --> 00:17:14.919 openhearted way, which I think is wonderful. 00:17:14.919 --> 00:17:18.439 Did you have any fear, anything that you were nervous about? 00:17:18.019 --> 00:17:18.740 No, not 00:17:19.059 --> 00:17:19.699 really. 00:17:19.699 --> 00:17:20.100 I think 00:17:20.339 --> 00:17:20.980 because I had 00:17:21.139 --> 00:17:21.380 you know, 00:17:21.539 --> 00:17:23.220 been doing a lot of other men's work 00:17:23.380 --> 00:17:23.459 and 00:17:23.699 --> 00:17:24.740 stuff like that, I just read 00:17:24.899 --> 00:17:26.579 this is just another stepping stone. 00:17:26.579 --> 00:17:28.339 So I I didn't really have any 00:17:28.660 --> 00:17:30.900 fears or trepidations going into it. 00:17:30.900 --> 00:17:34.420 Again, I think part of it is that I did trust Brad and others that had 00:17:34.660 --> 00:17:35.220 gone 00:17:35.540 --> 00:17:39.380 and they just said, okay, I'll just be open, see what happens. 00:17:39.019 --> 00:17:41.820 Now when the rites ended, you you were at Oracle for a few days 00:17:41.980 --> 00:17:43.659 and it was time for you to drive off. 00:17:43.659 --> 00:17:46.860 You and Jim got in the car and presumably you eventually got home, but after 00:17:47.179 --> 00:17:47.980 the wrong turn. 00:17:47.980 --> 00:17:48.139 But 00:17:48.380 --> 00:17:51.179 how did you feel immediately after the rites? 00:17:51.120 --> 00:17:52.560 You know, one of the things that is 00:17:52.800 --> 00:17:55.440 brought up is, again, the story 00:17:55.760 --> 00:17:57.440 stories that we share, obviously, 00:17:57.600 --> 00:17:57.680 we 00:17:57.840 --> 00:17:58.640 keep to ourselves. 00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:02.960 And in the insights, it says don't share your gold too soon. 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.280 And I took that to heart, and I really didn't know what 00:18:05.600 --> 00:18:08.080 where this was going to end up going. 00:18:08.080 --> 00:18:12.320 And it wasn't until, again, late 2006 or so. 00:18:12.320 --> 00:18:15.200 Where I started getting more involved in 00:18:15.520 --> 00:18:16.560 moving out of 00:18:16.800 --> 00:18:20.640 the ministry work at the church into doing this with the 00:18:21.280 --> 00:18:23.520 chapter here in Arizona. 00:18:23.019 --> 00:18:23.260 And 00:18:23.740 --> 00:18:24.059 so 00:18:24.380 --> 00:18:25.740 it just was something that it 00:18:25.899 --> 00:18:26.620 wasn't 100% 00:18:26.779 --> 00:18:28.539 sure where it was going to end up. 00:18:28.539 --> 00:18:30.220 But looking back at it now, it's 00:18:30.539 --> 00:18:32.940 it's been a wild ride. 00:18:33.140 --> 00:18:38.580 Well, Al, since making your rites, what has changed in your life for practically, relationally, spiritually? 00:18:39.220 --> 00:18:40.180 I think the 00:18:40.820 --> 00:18:43.460 big thing is, is just seeing the value. 00:18:43.780 --> 00:18:47.300 One of the things that has evolved from the MROP is that 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:49.080 The event in of itself 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:50.760 is very powerful. 00:18:50.760 --> 00:18:50.920 And 00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:51.640 when 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:55.800 you're ready for it, it's a great stepping stone. 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:58.000 I think men gathering in 00:18:58.159 --> 00:19:02.000 council and sharing their stories on a regular basis and hold 00:19:02.159 --> 00:19:03.200 each other up. 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:05.120 And I you know, I can cite 00:19:05.820 --> 00:19:06.060 many 00:19:06.220 --> 00:19:07.660 things that had occurred in my life 00:19:07.820 --> 00:19:12.300 where having these brothers shoulder to shoulder have made a huge difference. 00:19:12.300 --> 00:19:15.020 I think now we're referring to that as the journey of illumination. 00:19:15.020 --> 00:19:18.620 And so the MROP is just one part of that. 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:18.400 But 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:19.360 it is a 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:20.400 journey and 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:22.480 it's a lifelong commitment. 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:22.640 And 00:19:23.840 --> 00:19:26.400 I don't feel I would be who I am today 00:19:26.560 --> 00:19:27.680 had I not had 00:19:28.140 --> 00:19:31.500 that initial experience and then the continuing time 00:19:31.660 --> 00:19:33.980 meeting with my brothers on a weekly basis. 00:19:34.220 --> 00:19:34.940 We've been doing this 00:19:35.500 --> 00:19:36.620 for many, many 00:19:36.940 --> 00:19:37.820 years. 00:19:37.320 --> 00:19:38.440 And so I think that's 00:19:38.600 --> 00:19:40.520 really the big takeaway of it is 00:19:40.760 --> 00:19:41.560 you got to take 00:19:41.800 --> 00:19:44.200 it's not something you just check off and do. 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:45.080 There's got to be something 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:45.480 even 00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:47.000 Richard mentioned 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:48.040 to be generative. 00:19:48.040 --> 00:19:48.200 You have 00:19:48.600 --> 00:19:49.960 to give back in some manner. 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:51.160 And I think that's really what 00:19:51.340 --> 00:19:53.419 Says, what can I do and give back? 00:19:53.740 --> 00:19:54.780 So, again, 00:19:55.260 --> 00:19:58.620 one of the affirmations I just had yesterday is that, you know, 00:19:58.860 --> 00:20:00.059 my son, who we 00:20:00.620 --> 00:20:06.620 Used as a guinea pig for a lot of the stuff we were trying to do here in Arizona, took a lot of the stuff to heart. 00:20:06.620 --> 00:20:06.940 And 00:20:07.260 --> 00:20:08.300 just now that he's 00:20:08.540 --> 00:20:10.860 You know, he's well into his career and stuff 00:20:11.020 --> 00:20:12.780 in his mid-30s. 00:20:12.780 --> 00:20:13.820 He's seeing, hey, 00:20:14.540 --> 00:20:15.340 I need this. 00:20:15.340 --> 00:20:15.900 I need this. 00:20:16.460 --> 00:20:18.540 I've seen what it's done for you. 00:20:18.460 --> 00:20:20.860 I've had some experiences myself, and I want to 00:20:21.020 --> 00:20:22.540 now take this on it, and 00:20:23.260 --> 00:20:25.420 feel very grateful for that. 00:20:25.980 --> 00:20:29.820 How do the rites affect your relationships, specifically 00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:34.680 you know, your personal relationships, your relationships with other men in your community, and 00:20:34.840 --> 00:20:38.040 how did that affect also the conversations you would have with others? 00:20:38.360 --> 00:20:39.640 I think the big thing was, 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:41.800 as I mentioned earlier, is that 00:20:42.679 --> 00:20:43.159 How what 00:20:43.399 --> 00:20:44.360 can I do 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:45.320 to 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:48.600 provide these experiences for other men? 00:20:48.600 --> 00:20:48.919 And 00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:50.919 I know for me 00:20:51.660 --> 00:20:54.300 you know, everybody has different gifts that they have. 00:20:54.300 --> 00:20:54.620 And 00:20:54.860 --> 00:20:56.220 one of the things I realized too 00:20:56.460 --> 00:21:00.060 is that the group of men that we we ended up forming in our 00:21:00.300 --> 00:21:03.020 chapter here, we all had different gifts and 00:21:03.180 --> 00:21:04.140 different backgrounds. 00:21:04.140 --> 00:21:05.340 And it in a in an 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:07.480 secular world, if you will, 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:09.480 we probably never would have connected. 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:12.280 But in this work, we had that common goal. 00:21:12.280 --> 00:21:15.000 So we all brought different things to that. 00:21:14.919 --> 00:21:15.559 And so 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:16.200 my 00:21:16.600 --> 00:21:17.720 drive was to 00:21:18.360 --> 00:21:20.840 I tended to be the one working in the background 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:22.840 on the organizational side of things. 00:21:22.840 --> 00:21:23.240 And so I 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:24.360 always had the goal 00:21:24.520 --> 00:21:25.160 : what could I 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:25.799 do 00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:29.000 to create the environment that this 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:31.640 transformative work can take place. 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:33.640 And so I was looking to make sure there was 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:36.360 just the creature comforts were taken care of 00:21:36.600 --> 00:21:39.240 so that that wouldn't be a distraction. 00:21:38.740 --> 00:21:38.820 so 00:21:38.980 --> 00:21:40.420 that the men that would come to these 00:21:40.740 --> 00:21:41.380 events 00:21:41.700 --> 00:21:45.860 could do the work that they came to do without worrying about 00:21:46.340 --> 00:21:47.700 what they're going to eat or 00:21:48.540 --> 00:21:49.500 Where they're going to sleep 00:21:49.660 --> 00:21:49.900 and 00:21:50.060 --> 00:21:51.020 all those sorts of things. 00:21:51.020 --> 00:21:54.300 So that's really where I kind of felt my calling. 00:21:54.300 --> 00:21:55.260 As far as 00:21:55.980 --> 00:21:56.940 me personally 00:21:57.180 --> 00:21:57.500 , 00:21:57.600 --> 00:21:57.840 This 00:21:58.080 --> 00:21:59.200 question has come up before 00:21:59.440 --> 00:21:59.840 says, 00:22:00.159 --> 00:22:00.399 where would 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:02.159 I be today had I not done this? 00:22:02.159 --> 00:22:04.080 And quite frankly, I'm not sure. 00:22:04.080 --> 00:22:04.639 It would have 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:05.039 probably 00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:06.159 been different. 00:22:06.159 --> 00:22:06.960 But I think 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:10.639 as a whole, I don't regret any of this. 00:22:10.500 --> 00:22:10.820 And 00:22:11.700 --> 00:22:14.980 I think it's made me somewhat a more compassionate person. 00:22:15.299 --> 00:22:17.860 There's been other things that have come up that have 00:22:18.740 --> 00:22:20.740 realize that, hey, I'm just not an island. 00:22:20.740 --> 00:22:25.940 I definitely need other men, other people around me to get you know to get to where I need to go. 00:22:25.940 --> 00:22:27.780 And so there's definitely been some 00:22:28.580 --> 00:22:32.179 humbling experiences that have come out of this. 00:22:31.740 --> 00:22:35.980 And so it's really hard to say what distinctly has changed. 00:22:35.980 --> 00:22:40.060 There's not been any major aha moment like this. 00:22:40.060 --> 00:22:43.340 It's just been a slow, gradual transition. 00:22:42.940 --> 00:22:47.179 Now, let me ask you, did the rites change your understanding of masculinity 00:22:47.419 --> 00:22:48.220 initiation 00:22:48.539 --> 00:22:50.139 or the male purpose in life? 00:22:50.139 --> 00:22:51.019 And if so, 00:22:51.659 --> 00:22:53.260 how did they change? 00:22:52.940 --> 00:22:54.700 You know, in the early part in my 00:22:55.100 --> 00:22:57.419 twenties, just starting my career, in 00:22:57.580 --> 00:22:58.460 the interfaces you 00:22:58.779 --> 00:23:03.580 had, most of the conversations tend to be fairly shallow. 00:23:03.340 --> 00:23:04.299 And I think this 00:23:04.620 --> 00:23:07.100 what this experience has shown me is that it's 00:23:07.260 --> 00:23:08.539 okay to open up 00:23:08.860 --> 00:23:09.179 to 00:23:09.340 --> 00:23:12.059 others, especially another group of men. 00:23:12.460 --> 00:23:14.380 But what's important is to 00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:15.900 gain trust 00:23:16.140 --> 00:23:19.100 and to allow yourself to become vulnerable. 00:23:19.100 --> 00:23:20.860 And I think that's the key thing that 00:23:21.140 --> 00:23:21.620 I didn't get 00:23:21.780 --> 00:23:24.100 again, that's one of the things that really drove Richard to do this 00:23:24.260 --> 00:23:24.740 is that 00:23:25.060 --> 00:23:27.700 guys would have a tendency to bottle things up. 00:23:27.700 --> 00:23:31.220 I thought I was kind of open, but I think I was never getting 00:23:31.919 --> 00:23:34.000 to that level where I could really get into the 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:36.400 any issues that might be coming up. 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:45.200 So that's the sharing of your stories, but listening to other men's stories, because there's so much that can be learned from what others have, they are 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:46.320 going through. 00:23:46.519 --> 00:23:47.320 And some of you 00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:50.360 can just relate to and say, yeah, I kind of went through that too. 00:23:50.360 --> 00:23:50.519 And 00:23:50.919 --> 00:23:53.799 it's good to hear how others have done that. 00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:54.039 And so 00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:55.960 in your normal work life 00:23:56.340 --> 00:23:57.059 Social life, 00:23:57.220 --> 00:23:59.539 what have you, don't you don't get into those sorts of things. 00:23:59.539 --> 00:24:01.380 And I think it's necessary 00:24:01.620 --> 00:24:03.380 to really be a whole person 00:24:03.700 --> 00:24:04.179 to sort 00:24:04.419 --> 00:24:05.059 through that. 00:24:05.059 --> 00:24:05.460 I think 00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:11.640 I think a lot of the issues with depression and addictions and those sorts of things are just because the 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:12.280 guys 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:13.480 don't have that 00:24:14.100 --> 00:24:15.220 That intimate 00:24:15.539 --> 00:24:16.659 contact and 00:24:16.980 --> 00:24:17.299 things 00:24:17.940 --> 00:24:20.820 within either their church community or whatever. 00:24:20.820 --> 00:24:24.179 And so I think this is a valuable, for me, anyway, 00:24:24.500 --> 00:24:27.139 I don't think I'd be where I am today. 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:28.000 without it. 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:28.400 But as 00:24:28.560 --> 00:24:33.440 the question you asked earlier, I can't pinpoint any specific things that has changed. 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:37.840 I think as a whole, I'm sure I'm different than I would have been had I not 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:38.960 done this. 00:24:38.919 --> 00:24:39.960 Yeah, Al, thank you. 00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:47.559 I hear you saying that there's a depth of relationship and even the ability to be more vulnerable in your relationships. 00:24:47.520 --> 00:24:51.040 Let me shift a little bit here and let me talk a little bit about Aero Vipa. 00:24:51.040 --> 00:24:52.400 I just want to say, you know, years ago 00:24:52.560 --> 00:24:57.600 after I made my rites, I was not tethered to any one place and I spent some time out in Arizona 00:24:57.760 --> 00:24:58.080 and 00:24:58.260 --> 00:25:01.780 I found your council group in the Phoenix area to be very welcoming to me 00:25:01.940 --> 00:25:02.179 and 00:25:02.340 --> 00:25:03.940 the community that you and others 00:25:04.260 --> 00:25:06.260 have created to be just wonderful. 00:25:06.260 --> 00:25:10.900 And you invited me to a retreat that spring at Aravaipa Canyon. 00:25:10.820 --> 00:25:11.060 And 00:25:11.300 --> 00:25:14.580 Aravaipa Canyon Ranch is also where the MROP is hosted. 00:25:14.580 --> 00:25:16.180 Can you tell us a little bit about 00:25:16.500 --> 00:25:16.820 why 00:25:17.140 --> 00:25:21.540 Aravaipa is such a sacred place for so many men in the Illuman Community 00:25:21.780 --> 00:25:23.620 and describe that a little bit? 00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:25.519 So as I mentioned, in 00:25:25.840 --> 00:25:26.399 my time 00:25:26.639 --> 00:25:27.760 in the desert there 00:25:27.919 --> 00:25:35.039 during the MROP, I had that vision of the flickering leaves and the running water. 00:25:34.540 --> 00:25:37.580 And you don't find that in a lot of places in Arizona, let alone 00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:38.940 it be year-round. 00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:44.860 So, you know, Aravaipa Creek is uniquely runs, water runs year-round. 00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:50.160 So, as we learned a little bit more about this ranch and the owner, David Riker, 00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:52.720 he had a connection with Richard years ago 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:54.080 when he bought the ranch. 00:25:54.080 --> 00:25:55.920 And Richard came out initially 00:25:56.560 --> 00:25:57.520 blessed 00:25:57.340 --> 00:26:00.620 The site, and there was a particular area on there that 00:26:00.860 --> 00:26:02.860 they really were drawn to. 00:26:03.100 --> 00:26:04.780 Some of the history of Aravaipa 00:26:04.940 --> 00:26:05.179 ran 00:26:05.580 --> 00:26:07.100 of the Aravaipa area 00:26:07.600 --> 00:26:09.760 is that there's a lot of the 00:26:10.159 --> 00:26:14.080 Native Americans who are very prevalent in this area. 00:26:14.080 --> 00:26:14.639 In fact, 00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:16.559 I don't tell this story 00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:18.159 as well as others, but 00:26:19.220 --> 00:26:20.500 I think it was Geronimo 00:26:20.740 --> 00:26:20.820 was 00:26:20.980 --> 00:26:21.940 actually in this 00:26:22.100 --> 00:26:23.700 holdup in the Aravaipa 00:26:24.179 --> 00:26:24.900 area. 00:26:24.900 --> 00:26:28.820 But one of the the tragic things that happened is during the, you know, some of the 00:26:29.539 --> 00:26:30.419 wars that are 00:26:30.840 --> 00:26:32.360 occurred in the early part of our 00:26:32.520 --> 00:26:33.400 our nation 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:35.799 is that there was a massacre in this 00:26:36.120 --> 00:26:37.799 in this whole Aravaipa area. 00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:39.880 And so there's a spiritual connection, 00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:43.080 very strong spiritual connection here. 00:26:42.820 --> 00:26:43.300 With what 00:26:43.700 --> 00:26:44.820 has happened. 00:26:44.820 --> 00:26:47.940 And so there was you know, David had this desire to have this 00:26:48.180 --> 00:26:50.020 retreat center set up. 00:26:50.020 --> 00:26:50.180 And 00:26:50.340 --> 00:26:55.620 so he has this this ranch house that can accommodate up to thirty people. 00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:59.120 And so when we decided to do the MROPs there, we realized that 00:26:59.600 --> 00:27:01.760 we're going to have to expand it. 00:27:01.760 --> 00:27:02.080 And so 00:27:02.639 --> 00:27:04.159 one of the things that I think 00:27:04.320 --> 00:27:04.400 was 00:27:04.560 --> 00:27:06.160 interesting is when we were looking 00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:07.200 we had to set up a 00:27:07.520 --> 00:27:08.960 a tent area to you know 00:27:09.120 --> 00:27:10.640 for the meeting space. 00:27:10.800 --> 00:27:12.240 As we were looking for a spot 00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:13.360 we gleaned in 00:27:13.520 --> 00:27:14.560 in the field 00:27:14.560 --> 00:27:16.640 To have this one area, it turns out 00:27:16.800 --> 00:27:20.560 that is the area that Richard felt this very strong 00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:22.000 connection 00:27:22.340 --> 00:27:25.620 I think one of the draws at Aravaipa 00:27:25.780 --> 00:27:26.419 is, again, 00:27:26.820 --> 00:27:29.780 that spiritual connection to the land, to 00:27:30.020 --> 00:27:32.660 the history, to the people that were there before, 00:27:32.980 --> 00:27:34.900 the magnificent views 00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:38.000 It just had all the elements that you would 00:27:38.159 --> 00:27:38.480 you 00:27:38.639 --> 00:27:40.080 would want to have for that 00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:40.559 the 00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:40.960 quote 00:27:41.120 --> 00:27:42.960 desert experience. 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:44.159 And so it just we become 00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:45.360 very connected there. 00:27:45.360 --> 00:27:48.320 And every time we go down there, it's just like we're entering 00:27:48.700 --> 00:27:48.940 We talk 00:27:49.100 --> 00:27:50.700 a lot of times in this work of 00:27:50.860 --> 00:27:52.140 the liminal space. 00:27:52.140 --> 00:27:54.780 And so it's just like we're entering into, 00:27:55.180 --> 00:27:57.500 it almost doesn't matter what's happening outside. 00:27:57.500 --> 00:28:01.740 We enter into this, and there's just a peace that comes over everybody. 00:28:01.740 --> 00:28:02.060 And 00:28:02.340 --> 00:28:06.340 So, when we plan these events, and I think this is true profit for everybody that 00:28:06.500 --> 00:28:10.340 does these MOPs, you do all this planning. 00:28:10.320 --> 00:28:16.160 But things never tend to work out the way you plan, but they work out exactly the way they're supposed to. 00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:16.800 And so we finally 00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:18.640 just kind of laugh with it when things go 00:28:19.120 --> 00:28:19.760 different directions 00:28:20.080 --> 00:28:20.160 as 00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:20.640 well 00:28:20.860 --> 00:28:21.019 So 00:28:21.419 --> 00:28:24.380 we now, as we enter into the space, we say, okay, 00:28:24.700 --> 00:28:25.899 go to the Holy Spirit. 00:28:25.899 --> 00:28:27.580 It's all up to you now. 00:28:27.580 --> 00:28:27.820 And 00:28:27.980 --> 00:28:30.299 we just kind of go with the flow. 00:28:29.840 --> 00:28:31.440 And that this place really makes that 00:28:31.600 --> 00:28:33.039 it's it's magical. 00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:37.919 If opportunities come up, definitely invite anybody to go down in this 00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:39.120 to the air vibe 00:28:39.280 --> 00:28:40.480 area. 00:28:40.040 --> 00:28:40.440 Thank you. 00:28:40.760 --> 00:28:46.360 I'd like to invite you to say a little bit more about the MROP from your many years of experience. 00:28:46.360 --> 00:28:48.200 I was so fortunate to be able to 00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:52.560 volunteer to help support the MROP at Aravaipa in 2024. 00:28:52.560 --> 00:28:54.800 And one of the things I always like to tell guys is 00:28:55.040 --> 00:28:58.640 that's the best food you'll ever have at an MROP. 00:28:58.300 --> 00:29:00.700 Your cooking staff does a great, great job. 00:29:00.700 --> 00:29:04.220 Of course, I was fasting during the MROP, so I missed out on a lot of it. 00:29:04.220 --> 00:29:04.540 But 00:29:04.780 --> 00:29:06.540 I just think it's such a wonderful location, 00:29:06.780 --> 00:29:11.020 the opportunity for men to sleep outdoors as part of the event. 00:29:10.460 --> 00:29:11.980 But those are just some personal reflections. 00:29:11.980 --> 00:29:13.500 I I really want you, because you 00:29:13.660 --> 00:29:19.900 had so many events at Aravaipa, many MROPs, but also many other retreats and things like that. 00:29:19.860 --> 00:29:21.380 Just talk a little bit about your 00:29:22.019 --> 00:29:25.059 the depth and breadth of your experience in men's work, 00:29:25.220 --> 00:29:26.179 Illumante men's work 00:29:26.340 --> 00:29:28.980 specifically, and where that's led you. 00:29:28.700 --> 00:29:30.140 Again, as I first 00:29:30.460 --> 00:29:34.860 got initiated in 2005, got involved in helping out with 00:29:35.020 --> 00:29:35.820 various events 00:29:35.980 --> 00:29:36.380 and then 00:29:36.740 --> 00:29:37.300 We really had this 00:29:37.460 --> 00:29:37.540 des 00:29:38.020 --> 00:29:44.340 we had the first two MROPs in Oracle in 2005 and 2007. 00:29:44.340 --> 00:29:48.260 It was at a YMCA camp, and it was very nice, and they took really good care. 00:29:48.260 --> 00:29:50.020 But we just felt like there was just something 00:29:50.419 --> 00:29:51.860 Missing. 00:29:51.860 --> 00:29:52.179 And 00:29:52.580 --> 00:29:54.580 so that's, as I mentioned earlier, 00:29:54.820 --> 00:29:55.460 as I was 00:29:55.940 --> 00:29:56.820 reflecting 00:29:57.220 --> 00:29:58.820 that time out in the desert, I just had that 00:29:59.059 --> 00:30:01.620 strong sense of this place. 00:30:01.220 --> 00:30:01.460 With 00:30:01.700 --> 00:30:04.180 the running water and the flickering leaves. 00:30:04.180 --> 00:30:05.460 And when I went out here, we 00:30:05.940 --> 00:30:06.660 saw this and 00:30:06.900 --> 00:30:08.180 said, This is the place 00:30:08.580 --> 00:30:10.500 where we need to do this. 00:30:10.019 --> 00:30:10.580 And so 00:30:10.899 --> 00:30:11.539 we found 00:30:11.700 --> 00:30:13.940 the ranch and we got connected with David. 00:30:13.940 --> 00:30:14.100 And 00:30:14.260 --> 00:30:16.179 the history of the ranch was it was built 00:30:16.820 --> 00:30:18.659 in the 60s by a Seven 00:30:18.820 --> 00:30:19.700 Day Adventist 00:30:19.940 --> 00:30:21.220 minister. 00:30:20.940 --> 00:30:21.659 It was right 00:30:22.059 --> 00:30:23.340 by the creek. 00:30:23.340 --> 00:30:23.659 It was 00:30:24.139 --> 00:30:25.260 pretty basic, 00:30:25.899 --> 00:30:26.460 but at least 00:30:26.620 --> 00:30:27.100 it was 00:30:27.419 --> 00:30:27.580 s 00:30:27.740 --> 00:30:27.899 had 00:30:28.220 --> 00:30:31.179 some of amenities that would be useful for 00:30:31.580 --> 00:30:33.179 doing an event. 00:30:32.940 --> 00:30:33.019 So 00:30:33.179 --> 00:30:33.419 I had 00:30:33.740 --> 00:30:38.220 a kitchen, a couple stoves, a few refrigerators. 00:30:38.220 --> 00:30:44.860 And we realized if we were going to do an event there, there's no catering service that we could probably get to come out. 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:47.440 There's no grocery store nearby. 00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:47.760 And so 00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:48.080 part 00:30:48.320 --> 00:30:50.400 probably one of the most difficult things 00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:52.080 to make this work is 00:30:52.740 --> 00:30:53.220 is the kit 00:30:53.380 --> 00:30:54.980 you mentioned the food. 00:30:54.980 --> 00:30:55.460 And so 00:30:55.780 --> 00:30:59.300 the first part of my involvement out there is I was managing the kitchen. 00:30:59.300 --> 00:31:01.060 And so I came up with a 00:31:01.380 --> 00:31:02.020 process 00:31:02.260 --> 00:31:02.500 to 00:31:03.460 --> 00:31:03.780 get 00:31:04.100 --> 00:31:05.540 everything put together for that. 00:31:05.540 --> 00:31:06.260 And that was 00:31:06.820 --> 00:31:07.940 Quite an undertaking. 00:31:07.940 --> 00:31:10.980 In fact, I ended up writing a guide 00:31:11.620 --> 00:31:11.940 on 00:31:12.260 --> 00:31:12.580 doing 00:31:12.900 --> 00:31:13.220 this 00:31:13.460 --> 00:31:14.420 for any other 00:31:14.840 --> 00:31:15.480 chapters that 00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:18.840 were going to do an MROP where they had to provide their own food because 00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:20.120 it it adds a 00:31:20.280 --> 00:31:20.840 whole 00:31:21.320 --> 00:31:23.720 different level of complexity 00:31:24.039 --> 00:31:25.559 when you have to add that element. 00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:25.799 Because it 00:31:26.120 --> 00:31:27.000 it's necessary that 00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:29.320 provide food over those days. 00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:29.720 And 00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:30.440 so that 00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:32.680 that was probably the biggest challenge, but I 00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:35.640 I I've always enjoyed uh food prep and just 00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:38.920 rather than just preparing for a small group or the family 00:31:39.040 --> 00:31:39.200 Back 00:31:39.360 --> 00:31:42.000 one year, I think it was in twenty sixteen, we had ninety 00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:44.800 two men at Aravaipa. 00:31:44.800 --> 00:31:45.920 And so we had men 00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:47.520 about thirty in the houses. 00:31:47.520 --> 00:31:49.040 We had tents set up 00:31:49.280 --> 00:31:51.120 all over the property. 00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:51.920 It was 00:31:52.419 --> 00:31:54.980 quite a transformation from this 00:31:55.460 --> 00:31:58.260 ranch to almost a small city. 00:31:58.580 --> 00:32:01.299 I still don't know how we do we pulled that off, but it 00:32:01.460 --> 00:32:04.580 was really quite an experience. 00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:04.700 And so 00:32:05.020 --> 00:32:08.540 as time went on, I just took on more and more responsibility, eventually 00:32:08.780 --> 00:32:10.860 became the MORP coordinator 00:32:11.340 --> 00:32:12.060 for the event. 00:32:12.060 --> 00:32:15.740 So I had to build a team to do all the things. 00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:17.400 including the kitchen, and then eventually 00:32:17.560 --> 00:32:20.760 became the convener for Arizona, as long with still 00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:22.920 managing the MROPs. 00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:26.600 It was just like the little stepping stones along the way. 00:32:26.019 --> 00:32:26.260 But 00:32:26.899 --> 00:32:27.539 again, 00:32:27.860 --> 00:32:29.139 I think the big thing was 00:32:29.539 --> 00:32:30.580 that we wanted 00:32:30.820 --> 00:32:32.659 when we found this place 00:32:33.220 --> 00:32:35.620 in the feelings that we had. 00:32:35.720 --> 00:32:37.000 and the subsequent 00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:38.600 events that we've had there. 00:32:38.600 --> 00:32:39.080 It's the 00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:39.880 you know, remember I 00:32:40.280 --> 00:32:45.560 mentioned that one of my goals is to create an environment for transformation and take place. 00:32:45.560 --> 00:32:47.560 This is that place. 00:32:47.360 --> 00:32:56.720 This is the year that Illuman is celebrating the 30th anniversary of the very first rites of passage that Father Richard gave at a Ghost Ranch in New Mexico. 00:32:56.419 --> 00:33:04.740 And as someone who's been involved in this work for many years and through many iterations, including Illuman, what hopes do you have for the future of the MROP? 00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:07.040 I'd certainly like to see those continue 00:33:07.280 --> 00:33:08.800 due to many factors. 00:33:08.800 --> 00:33:11.760 We didn't do one here in 2026, but 00:33:12.080 --> 00:33:12.720 I think 00:33:13.360 --> 00:33:15.600 the work needs to continue 00:33:15.640 --> 00:33:18.120 But I think, again, I know there's been 00:33:18.440 --> 00:33:25.640 a shift to really make sure that men can, beyond the event itself, need to stay engaged. 00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:29.019 And so I know there's been a real push to really further what they would call the 00:33:29.179 --> 00:33:30.380 Journey of Illumination 00:33:30.700 --> 00:33:31.019 of 00:33:31.500 --> 00:33:32.460 connecting and 00:33:32.620 --> 00:33:35.260 serving and all those sorts of things. 00:33:34.760 --> 00:33:37.320 And I think the connection element is one of the keys is 00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:38.280 guys 00:33:38.840 --> 00:33:39.640 need to fi 00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:45.160 connect with others to share their stories and to hear the stories. 00:33:44.840 --> 00:33:45.000 you know 00:33:45.320 --> 00:33:46.120 this day and age we 00:33:46.280 --> 00:33:46.520 so we 00:33:46.760 --> 00:33:48.280 we get so distracted with 00:33:48.600 --> 00:33:50.600 social media and all those other 00:33:50.919 --> 00:33:51.160 things 00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:52.679 that we've almost 00:33:53.080 --> 00:33:53.480 in a sense 00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:54.760 been isolating ourselves 00:33:54.919 --> 00:33:55.559 I mean it's a real 00:33:55.720 --> 00:33:58.039 a real issue with some of our young people 00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:00.960 this needs to always be available 00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:04.640 as a healing experience for whatever is needed. 00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:06.720 As I as unlike other retreats, as 00:34:07.280 --> 00:34:08.240 mentioned 00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:10.800 This is a unique experience for each person. 00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:10.879 So 00:34:11.040 --> 00:34:14.240 there may be 40 or 50 men that are being initiated. 00:34:14.240 --> 00:34:14.720 It's a 00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:15.440 unique 00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:17.120 event for each one of them. 00:34:17.120 --> 00:34:19.520 They're all going to leave with something different. 00:34:19.340 --> 00:34:19.820 Thank you. 00:34:19.820 --> 00:34:21.820 I have just one more question for you. 00:34:21.820 --> 00:34:24.620 And we've now started what I call MROP 00:34:24.780 --> 00:34:25.020 season 00:34:25.180 --> 00:34:27.100 here as we get into the late spring. 00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:28.520 Summer months. 00:34:28.520 --> 00:34:33.399 And so the very first men's rites of passage actually began yesterday in Northern California. 00:34:33.399 --> 00:34:35.079 And that'll be the first rites that happen 00:34:35.399 --> 00:34:36.679 this year. 00:34:36.240 --> 00:34:38.800 I'd like you to extend an invitation. 00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:41.679 I'm hoping that other men will be listening to this and 00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:42.800 be considering 00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:44.960 participating in a men's rites of passage. 00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:47.040 What would you say to a man 00:34:47.200 --> 00:34:50.720 urging him to participate in a men's rites of passage? 00:34:50.340 --> 00:34:50.660 Do I 00:34:50.820 --> 00:34:51.940 get a a call or 00:34:52.180 --> 00:34:52.580 if there's 00:34:52.900 --> 00:34:53.540 if I 00:34:53.860 --> 00:34:58.340 run into a man that I think is struggling in some manner, and I think this could be 00:34:58.920 --> 00:34:59.320 a good 00:34:59.560 --> 00:35:00.520 experience is 00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:08.520 usually what I ask on an invitation is, have you found yourself in a point in your life that you kind of feel stuck? 00:35:08.720 --> 00:35:11.840 You're well into your career, other things are going on, and there 00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:15.120 may be some things that you're struggling with, but 00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:17.760 you don't know how to really deal with it. 00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:20.640 And a lot of it is, is there's all this excess baggage. 00:35:22.299 --> 00:35:23.260 And I said 00:35:23.900 --> 00:35:27.339 and I said, what this event will help you do is to sort 00:35:27.660 --> 00:35:28.220 through that 00:35:28.859 --> 00:35:30.539 baggage. 00:35:30.299 --> 00:35:34.700 Release it, grieve over it, and then open 00:35:34.940 --> 00:35:38.299 yourself up to what the possibilities are. 00:35:38.180 --> 00:35:38.500 And 00:35:39.140 --> 00:35:39.619 just to 00:35:39.859 --> 00:35:41.060 go with that mindset. 00:35:41.220 --> 00:35:42.500 So if you feel like 00:35:42.820 --> 00:35:45.380 that, yeah, I'm stuck at this point 00:35:45.700 --> 00:35:46.740 and I really need 00:35:47.380 --> 00:35:51.460 a way to kind of reset in some manner. 00:35:51.120 --> 00:35:55.120 I think the MROP could be very a very positive experience. 00:35:55.120 --> 00:35:58.640 I know when Richard set this up, it's a second half of life thing. 00:35:58.640 --> 00:35:59.600 So this is like after 00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:00.720 in your forties and 00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:01.520 what have you. 00:36:01.520 --> 00:36:04.560 And the majority of men that do attend tend to be 00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:05.740 in their 00:36:06.540 --> 00:36:08.380 probably forties, the fifties and sixties 00:36:08.540 --> 00:36:09.500 and older. 00:36:09.500 --> 00:36:11.500 But we sometimes have some young men that have 00:36:12.060 --> 00:36:12.619 had some 00:36:12.780 --> 00:36:13.660 really strong 00:36:14.340 --> 00:36:16.340 Had some life experiences that they need to dis 00:36:16.500 --> 00:36:16.580 to 00:36:16.740 --> 00:36:16.900 sort 00:36:17.060 --> 00:36:17.620 with. 00:36:17.620 --> 00:36:18.580 So I think a lot of it is 00:36:19.140 --> 00:36:19.300 an 00:36:19.460 --> 00:36:20.900 invitation process 00:36:21.060 --> 00:36:24.180 is to get to know where a man is and his 00:36:24.420 --> 00:36:24.820 journey 00:36:25.060 --> 00:36:25.300 and 00:36:25.640 --> 00:36:35.319 And because you've experienced the MROP yourself and you know what you went through, you can help share a little bit about your story. 00:36:35.040 --> 00:36:35.920 But again, just 00:36:36.080 --> 00:36:36.400 and then 00:36:36.720 --> 00:36:41.440 as I was invited, hey, trust me, it was a great experience for me. 00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:43.760 I think it'll be a great experience for you. 00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:45.360 Just do it. 00:36:44.840 --> 00:36:46.040 Thank you so much, Al. 00:36:46.040 --> 00:36:53.640 I was looking forward to this conversation for a long time, even though we just made plans for this just in the last twenty four hours or so. 00:36:54.840 --> 00:36:55.880 You and the men in 00:36:56.360 --> 00:37:00.280 Arizona really exemplified to me what it means to be generative 00:37:00.440 --> 00:37:03.800 and supportive and really create these opportunities for men 00:37:03.940 --> 00:37:08.020 to experience the rites and transformation in just an awesome setting. 00:37:08.020 --> 00:37:08.339 So 00:37:08.820 --> 00:37:11.140 just wonderful to hear about your experience. 00:37:11.140 --> 00:37:13.220 I just want to say I love you, brother, and 00:37:13.619 --> 00:37:15.540 I wish you all the best. 00:37:15.140 --> 00:37:16.339 Thank you so much. 00:37:16.339 --> 00:37:17.059 And who knows 00:37:17.299 --> 00:37:18.420 where the journey will be taking 00:37:18.579 --> 00:37:18.819 us? 00:37:19.940 --> 00:37:24.180 It is indeed a journey, and this is just a small step along the way. 00:37:23.660 --> 00:37:26.620 For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul 00:37:26.780 --> 00:37:30.940 and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. 00:37:30.940 --> 00:37:38.220 The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six. 00:37:38.359 --> 00:37:47.000 While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since twenty twelve Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over 00:37:47.160 --> 00:37:48.440 the world. 00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:52.800 To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading “Adam's Return” 00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:54.080 by Richard Rohr. 00:37:54.080 --> 00:37:54.960 If you are ready to make your 00:37:55.120 --> 00:38:00.720 rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six. 00:38:00.359 --> 00:38:02.040 The first is in Northern California, May 00:38:02.200 --> 00:38:03.480 thirteenth through the seventeenth 00:38:03.720 --> 00:38:09.960 the second in the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth, and in Illinois, August twelfth through the sixteenth 00:38:10.200 --> 00:38:14.920 there's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth. 00:38:13.960 --> 00:38:21.240 And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is an MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth. 00:38:21.240 --> 00:38:24.760 You can find details and registration information at Illuman dot 00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:25.720 org slash 00:38:25.880 --> 00:38:26.600 mrop 00:38:27.040 --> 00:38:27.200 or 00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:29.840 Illuman dot org slash events. 00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:33.120 Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national 00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:37.840 gathering of Illuman, taking place November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico. 00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:41.520 You can find more at Illuman dot org slash awaken. 00:38:41.880 --> 00:38:45.400 Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence. 00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:51.400 If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life. 00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:53.080 Download the Practicing Presence app for free 00:38:53.240 --> 00:38:54.680 at choosingpresence dot 00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:55.240 org 00:38:55.400 --> 00:38:55.720 slash 00:38:55.880 --> 00:38:56.520 app. 00:38:56.520 --> 00:39:01.480 It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today. 00:39:01.140 --> 00:39:02.260 Thank you for listening to 00:39:02.420 --> 00:39:04.339 follow me to the MROP. 00:39:04.339 --> 00:39:07.380 Until next time, brothers, stay present.