Brian Mueller: Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation.
Brian Mueller: My name is Brian Mueller.
Brian Mueller: I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen.
Brian Mueller: I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story.
Brian Mueller: This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what changed afterward.
Brian Mueller: Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude.
Brian Mueller: This podcast is brought to you by choosing Presence.
Brian Mueller: We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence.
Brian Mueller: In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now.
Brian Mueller: If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot
Brian Mueller: org slash app.
Brian Mueller: Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and
Brian Mueller: soul.
Brian Mueller: On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path.
Brian Mueller: Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him.
Brian Mueller: My guest today is Al Selder.
Brian Mueller: Brother, I'm really glad you're here.
Brian Mueller: Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story.
Al Selder: That's good to be here, Brian.
Al Selder: I was
Al Selder: excited to get your email for the invite to have this opportunity.
Al Selder: So let's see where this goes.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: Al, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days.
Al Selder: Currently
Al Selder: living here in Chandler, Arizona, which is one of the suburbs outside of Phoenix, and I've been out here since
Al Selder: 1981.
Al Selder: And so currently I'm a
Al Selder: retired engineer.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: enjoying
Al Selder: that time that that gives me with
Al Selder: our three grandkids and
Al Selder: my wife of almost 46 years.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: my kids live out here,
Al Selder: obviously with the grandkids being close by.
Al Selder: So
Al Selder: just enjoying those times.
Al Selder: And then
Al Selder: I also like
Al Selder: spending time up in Flagstaff.
Al Selder: My brother and I and us
Al Selder: have a house up there, so it's nice to get out of the heat.
Al Selder: And so I just stay busy kind of locally, doing a little bit of traveling around and
Al Selder: and different things.
Al Selder: But
Al Selder: yeah, never a dull moment.
Al Selder: I never
Al Selder: find myself getting bored.
Brian Mueller: Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: The MROP is a unique experience.
Brian Mueller: It's not a retreat or a workshop, it's an initiation.
Brian Mueller: Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name.
Brian Mueller: Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the beginning.
Brian Mueller: When and where did you make your rites, Al?
Al Selder: So I did my
Al Selder: rites of passage in two
Al Selder: thousand and five
Al Selder: in Oracle, Arizona, which is a small town northeast
Al Selder: of Tucson
Al Selder: and at a YMCA camp down there.
Brian Mueller: And who was the weaver and about how many men were there?
Al Selder: The weaver was
Al Selder: Richard Rohr.
Al Selder: Richard, this was
Al Selder: one of the first
Al Selder: MROPs
Al Selder: outside of
Al Selder: Ghost Ranch.
Al Selder: And it was something that was
Al Selder: brought on
Al Selder: by a group of men that went in the
Al Selder: In 2003, I think, to Ghost Ranch, and we're just really on fire for
Al Selder: the work that Richard was doing.
Al Selder: Basically, worked out to have
Al Selder: to expand this to have it here in Arizona.
Al Selder: And so
Al Selder: I had
Al Selder: maybe we'll talk about this a little later about the invitation process on that.
Al Selder: But anyways, for
Al Selder: again, Richard was
Al Selder: the weaver.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: let's see, how many men were there?
Al Selder: Probably
Al Selder: had
Al Selder: about 40 or 45 men being initiated.
Al Selder: And then they had the team a support team
Al Selder: to
Al Selder: put the event on.
Brian Mueller: Now, when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image that comes forth for you?
Al Selder: So
Al Selder: first,
Al Selder: if you're living in the desert for all these years, but
Al Selder: primarily focused on
Al Selder: the city area.
Al Selder: being
Al Selder: out there
Al Selder: really
Al Selder: had that sense
Al Selder: we always hear about
Al Selder: having that desert experience.
Al Selder: So
Al Selder: I think there was a little bit of a mystery there.
Al Selder: So the impression initially was
Al Selder: obviously
Al Selder: didn't know anything about what the event was going to unfold.
Al Selder: That was kind of intentional.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: so it was just taken by the
Al Selder: desert and a desert that I was maybe in at that time that I wasn't even aware of, which became very
Al Selder: clear
Al Selder: as the events unfolded for that few days.
Brian Mueller: Broadly speaking, as you think back over the entire weekend experience, what was that like for you?
Al Selder: I've done a lot of retreats over the years.
Al Selder: And as you mentioned in the intro,
Al Selder: the MROP is really
Al Selder: Even though you're there with a group of men and you're interfacing, it's a unique experience for each individual.
Al Selder: And that's really what
Al Selder: I found.
Al Selder: You know, it was things that
Al Selder: welded up.
Al Selder: in me
Al Selder: that I
Al Selder: hadn't
Al Selder: hadn't for many, many
Al Selder: years.
Al Selder: It was just a
Al Selder: an opportunity to really do a lot of self-reflection.
Al Selder: on
Al Selder: where I've been, what I needed to get
Al Selder: to release.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: it was just
Al Selder: again, I think that was the
Al Selder: that was what
Al Selder: really impressed me early on.
Al Selder: And then having the opportunity to
Al Selder: be in the
Al Selder: you know, the council circles and home groups as they were referred to at that time, to be able to kind of open up and process all that was
Al Selder: really a unique experience.
Brian Mueller: And without sharing anything that you might consider too personal or even confidential, was there a particular experience at the Wrights, or was there a particular encounter with maybe another man
Brian Mueller: or your home group that
Brian Mueller: really stands out to you?
Al Selder: Trying to think back on that.
Al Selder: I don't really
Al Selder: the home group experience was very powerful.
Al Selder: I don't have any really
Al Selder: recollections from that.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: maybe we'll get into this
Al Selder: a little later, but I definitely had a very profound experience on the day in the desert.
Al Selder: So, I don't know if that's a
Al Selder: further on question or if it's something I should elaborate on.
Brian Mueller: No, please go ahead and elaborate.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Al Selder: So,
Al Selder: it was really interesting
Al Selder: as.
Al Selder: is that we were preparing for that, and
Al Selder: Richard had us write some
Al Selder: some guides down along the way, and I picked
Al Selder: Some of the obvious ones, I think it was the Pope at that time.
Al Selder: I think it was Pope John Paul II
Al Selder: was still the Pope.
Al Selder: I always have an affinity for Saint Joseph
Al Selder: as the patron saint of the
Al Selder: carpenters and those sorts of things, and many others.
Al Selder: But I'm
Al Selder: enjoying woodwork and
Al Selder: that myself.
Al Selder: I thought, oh, St.
Al Selder: Joseph's would be good.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: then I had
Al Selder: obviously
Al Selder: Jesus as one of the guides.
Al Selder: But then, you know, there was a fi a fifth one.
Al Selder: I said, You know what?
Al Selder: I'm going to
Al Selder: have my
Al Selder: father-in-law, who had passed away several years before
Al Selder: Lou
Al Selder: Lou.
Al Selder: At the time, I didn't really think much of it.
Al Selder: So
Al Selder: anyways,
Al Selder: so I had those guides and I
Al Selder: you know, so
Al Selder: made my way out to for that
Al Selder: experience
Al Selder: and just remembered sitting there and going through the process and those sorts of things.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: all of a sudden
Al Selder: I started singing
Al Selder: Que
Al Selder: sera!
Al Selder: sera! Whatever will
Al Selder: be, will be, and I go
Al Selder: What the heck am I singing a Doris Day song for?
Al Selder: But everything
Al Selder: just came to a point of clarity.
Al Selder: And I think what
Al Selder: really hit me
Al Selder: is
Al Selder: that
Al Selder: and it was actually having Kathy's dad there, Lou, is that he
Al Selder: definitely had a lot of brokenness in his life, and he di could
Al Selder: really have
Al Selder: used
Al Selder: this experience and others that I've
Al Selder: had over the years with
Al Selder: Illuman
Al Selder: and
Al Selder: council work and those sorts of things
Al Selder: I just had a strong sense at that point that I was
Al Selder: that I needed to continue with this work.
Al Selder: And since 2005, I
Al Selder: Up until recently, I have been very involved with
Al Selder: Illuman
Al Selder: and the
Al Selder: Arizona chapter to make sure this
Al Selder: opportunity
Al Selder: was available for other men.
Al Selder: And even though I'm not actively involved with the Arizona chapter,
Al Selder: at this point, I'm still involved in a
Al Selder: council circle
Al Selder: myself.
Al Selder: I'm very involved in our church.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: the interesting thing is, I just found out from my son, is that he's interesting in forming a council circle.
Al Selder: He's talked about wanting to do something like that.
Al Selder: He says, I just don't know how to do it.
Al Selder: And he's just
Al Selder: Told me last night that that's something that
Al Selder: he feels called to do, and he's been talking to some guys about that.
Al Selder: ironically, two weeks ago
Al Selder: was brought up in my council
Al Selder: circle that
Al Selder: of his desire to do that
Al Selder: unbeknownst
Al Selder: that he was in this process.
Al Selder: And so when he brings this up to me last night, I go, You won't believe this.
Al Selder: So when I started this, you wonder, well, what impact are you going to have with this?
Al Selder: And I always have
Al Selder: felt like, you know
Al Selder: if I do this
Al Selder: and
Al Selder: I bring one man to some sort of a transformative experience where he has changed
Al Selder: his life, then I feel like I have accomplished something.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: if we all had that same goal of touching one person,
Al Selder: and making a difference in their life, we would all be touched.
Al Selder: And over the years,
Al Selder: I've been
Al Selder: blessed with many
Al Selder: men coming and says, hey, you know, that invitation that you
Al Selder: had
Al Selder: for
Al Selder: to go to the MROP
Al Selder: or to do this or that
Al Selder: was such a life-changing experience.
Al Selder: I felt, okay, I feel like I've accomplished
Al Selder: what I set out to do.
Al Selder: And I did
Al Selder: one little story that I
Al Selder: you know, that often many people have heard is about the little girl that's going down the beach
Al Selder: and there's all these starfish that have washed up and she's picking them up and throwing them into the water.
Al Selder: And this old man comes by and says,
Al Selder: What are you doing?
Al Selder: He says,
Al Selder: I'm throwing these starfish back into the water.
Al Selder: And he goes, Well, how are you going to make any difference?
Al Selder: There's thousands of them out here.
Al Selder: She says it makes a difference for this one.
Al Selder: And I just have always
Al Selder: remembered that little story and
Al Selder: I think
Al Selder: used that as
Al Selder: I say, yeah, we don't always have to do
Al Selder: great things.
Al Selder: Sometimes these little things
Al Selder: all have some sort of an impact.
Brian Mueller: Thank you so much for that, Al.
Brian Mueller: What I heard you saying was that the day that you spent in nature
Brian Mueller: at the Immense Rites of Passage, where you were offered the opportunity to invite some guides to go with you out there, and you selected your
Brian Mueller: your
Brian Mueller: late father-in-law is one of those guides, that really led you
Brian Mueller: to want
Brian Mueller: to bring this experience to more men.
Al Selder: Yes.
Al Selder: Yeah,
Al Selder: just
Al Selder: you know, when
Al Selder: the invitation I got was from one of the
Al Selder: men that went in that group in 2003,
Al Selder: says, just
Al Selder: trust me and go.
Al Selder: Obviously, I did.
Al Selder: I didn't know what
Al Selder: to expect.
Al Selder: So, this,
Al Selder: and over the years, again, of doing other types of retreats
Al Selder: I've never had an experience that was so deep as I had from the MROP.
Al Selder: I think
Al Selder: a lot of it's just the way the whole weekend is
Al Selder: structured.
Al Selder: So I always tell men, I said, when they're discerning, I said, you know, the way I look at it is
Al Selder: you get
Al Selder: a point in your life and you just feel like you're stuck.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: sometimes
Al Selder: we call that a midlife crisis or whatever it is.
Al Selder: But you've got so much baggage that you need
Al Selder: to
Al Selder: sort
Al Selder: through
Al Selder: And I say,
Al Selder: you know, the MROP
Al Selder: is an opportunity to identify that, release it, grieve over it, and then be open to see what you're called to do next.
Al Selder: And I think that's a, for me, that is how I summarize the
Al Selder: experience
Al Selder: is
Al Selder: just an opportunity to
Al Selder: basically,
Al Selder: just get in touch with yourself.
Al Selder: We don't give that
Al Selder: that type of time to ourselves very often.
Al Selder: And just to have that time to
Al Selder: really do an assessment of where you are
Al Selder: release stuff that's no longer serving you, and
Al Selder: then just be open to what's next.
Al Selder: I think I followed that path pretty closely
Al Selder: in my experience.
Brian Mueller: So let me take you back a little bit to before you attended the Rites.
Brian Mueller: What was going on in your life at the time that you decided to register for the Rites?
Brian Mueller: Or what made you decide, yes, this is an experience I want to do?
Al Selder: Well, at that time
Al Selder: I was
Al Selder: in a fairly large parish here in Arizona, and we had a very active men's ministry.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: got involved in that
Al Selder: and just in various roles
Al Selder: throughout the years.
Al Selder: And of course, at that time,
Al Selder: I was at the peak of my career, a lot of stuff going on
Al Selder: with the job.
Al Selder: Family was growing
Al Selder: and all sorts of things.
Al Selder: Can't say there was anything that really specifically said, I really needed this event.
Al Selder: other
Al Selder: than
Al Selder: curiosity and
Al Selder: again the invitation to just trust and to
Al Selder: go through it because of the experience these other men had.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: really it it
Al Selder: I was
Al Selder: Surprised what
Al Selder: came up.
Al Selder: So
Al Selder: there wasn't any specific thing that I could say, yeah, I was dealing with some maybe addictions or those sorts of things, and I just needed to have this opportunity.
Al Selder: But it was more of
Al Selder: just an openness and a curiosity.
Al Selder: It was also very profound.
Brian Mueller: When you made the decision to attend and you told your wife, maybe your family, friends, maybe even a spiritual director, what was their reaction?
Al Selder: My wife didn't necessarily completely understand it.
Al Selder: In fact, that's still a little bit of a struggle, even to this day, some of
Al Selder: the men's work.
Al Selder: And I'm going to
Al Selder: try to explain.
Al Selder: She's been to a couple of talks that Richard has done.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: I think she doesn't
Al Selder: understand why guys need to maybe do this sort of thing.
Al Selder: And I think that's
Al Selder: one of the things Richard actually talks about
Al Selder: is that.
Al Selder: men sometimes need this initiation
Al Selder: in our
Al Selder: in the whole male
Al Selder: history
Al Selder: is something we
Al Selder: that has just been missing of late.
Al Selder: And that women tend to do this naturally.
Al Selder: In fact, we just had this conversation just last night
Al Selder: when my son said he wants to get this group together.
Al Selder: So
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: Now, when you went to the rites, did you drive alone or were you with a group from your parish?
Al Selder: I drove down with one other man.
Al Selder: A lot of people remember
Al Selder: Jim Scher.
Al Selder: And Jim and I drove down together, and we drove back together.
Al Selder: So I did not go with
Al Selder: other than with Jim, I did not go with anybody else
Al Selder: from our parish at that time.
Brian Mueller: Did you and Jim have conversations about the rites, both coming and going, about what you might anticipate?
Al Selder: Not so much going, because I think we both went in with
Al Selder: at that time and probably still is, is, you know, yeah, we could have read Adam's Return, and which would have been good, but the invitation was just to go with an open mind.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: just
Al Selder: let
Al Selder: the spirit
Al Selder: work.
Al Selder: But definitely on the way back, in fact, we were sharing so much of what
Al Selder: our experiences was.
Al Selder: We missed a turn and we ended up
Al Selder: driving fifty miles out of our way.
Brian Mueller: So when you arrived at Oracle
Brian Mueller: and
Brian Mueller: the rites began and you entered into the rites, was there something that you were hoping for, something that you wanted to be initiated into?
Al Selder: I was open to what could come up.
Al Selder: And it was really
Al Selder: the affirmation to continue
Al Selder: this
Al Selder: work.
Al Selder: As a matter of fact,
Al Selder: One other thing that, as I was sitting there
Al Selder: in the desert, I had this
Al Selder: vision of
Al Selder: these quaking
Al Selder: leaves and a running stream.
Al Selder: And it just kept reoccurring.
Al Selder: And so afterwards, I was sharing this with Brad, and he says,
Al Selder: you know, that's Aravaipa.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: I said,
Al Selder: really, I said, where's that?
Al Selder: I
Al Selder: didn't know anything about that.
Al Selder: Well, he was sharing his story
Al Selder: that he was
Al Selder: in his MROP experience, he had these
Al Selder: visions of these golden vistas, and he was sharing that with Richard Rohrer.
Al Selder: And Richard said, Oh, that's air of Aravaipa.
Al Selder: And so
Al Selder: we made a trip down there
Al Selder: and I think it was
Al Selder: it was
Al Selder: a two
Al Selder: thousand six time frame.
Al Selder: And as we drove up here
Al Selder: and I saw the Aravaipa Creek, the cottonwood trees lining that, that's exactly what I saw.
Al Selder: So there was a really a mystical experience that occurred.
Al Selder: So
Al Selder: if this background shows up in
Al Selder: the podcast, this is the Brandenburg Peak
Al Selder: north of the property there at Aravaipa Ranch.
Al Selder: And this is what Brad's experience was.
Al Selder: There's also this creek that runs right past the
Al Selder: ranch that
Al Selder: we have done many MROPs since mine in 2005.
Al Selder: And it's just a very, very special
Al Selder: place.
Brian Mueller: I just want to make a note here.
Brian Mueller: You're speaking about Brad Kuluris.
Brian Mueller: He's the original convener for the Arizona chapter.
Brian Mueller: He preceded you in that role.
Brian Mueller: Yes.
Brian Mueller: Did you meet him at the MROP?
Al Selder: No, I knew Brad actually
Al Selder: from
Al Selder: our our common
Al Selder: ties with the
Al Selder: men's ministry
Al Selder: at the parish we were both attending.
Al Selder: And once we had this, we realized
Al Selder: Actually, it was post the same time frame,
Al Selder: a group formed in Arizona, and we became one of the first chapters.
Al Selder: that we're continuing to do the work of
Al Selder: Richard in doing
Al Selder: subsequent MROPs here in Arizona.
Al Selder: And we've done them
Al Selder: the last one we did was in 2024.
Al Selder: And so we've done, gosh, probably a dozen of
Al Selder: events down here, and
Al Selder: each one unique and each one very special.
Brian Mueller: Now it sounds to me like you went into the MROP in a very open
Brian Mueller: minded way and
Brian Mueller: openhearted way, which I think is wonderful.
Brian Mueller: Did you have any fear, anything that you were nervous about?
Al Selder: No, not
Al Selder: really.
Al Selder: I think
Al Selder: because I had
Al Selder: you know,
Al Selder: been doing a lot of other men's work
Al Selder: and
Al Selder: stuff like that, I just read
Al Selder: this is just another stepping stone.
Al Selder: So I I didn't really have any
Al Selder: fears or trepidations going into it.
Al Selder: Again, I think part of it is that I did trust Brad and others that had
Al Selder: gone
Al Selder: and they just said, okay, I'll just be open, see what happens.
Brian Mueller: Now when the rites ended, you you were at Oracle for a few days
Brian Mueller: and it was time for you to drive off.
Brian Mueller: You and Jim got in the car and presumably you eventually got home, but after
Brian Mueller: the wrong turn.
Brian Mueller: But
Brian Mueller: how did you feel immediately after the rites?
Al Selder: You know, one of the things that is
Al Selder: brought up is, again, the story
Al Selder: stories that we share, obviously,
Al Selder: we
Al Selder: keep to ourselves.
Al Selder: And in the insights, it says don't share your gold too soon.
Al Selder: And I took that to heart, and I really didn't know what
Al Selder: where this was going to end up going.
Al Selder: And it wasn't until, again, late 2006 or so.
Al Selder: Where I started getting more involved in
Al Selder: moving out of
Al Selder: the ministry work at the church into doing this with the
Al Selder: chapter here in Arizona.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: so
Al Selder: it just was something that it
Al Selder: wasn't 100%
Al Selder: sure where it was going to end up.
Al Selder: But looking back at it now, it's
Al Selder: it's been a wild ride.
Brian Mueller: Well, Al, since making your rites, what has changed in your life for practically, relationally, spiritually?
Al Selder: I think the
Al Selder: big thing is, is just seeing the value.
Al Selder: One of the things that has evolved from the MROP is that
Al Selder: The event in of itself
Al Selder: is very powerful.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: when
Al Selder: you're ready for it, it's a great stepping stone.
Al Selder: I think men gathering in
Al Selder: council and sharing their stories on a regular basis and hold
Al Selder: each other up.
Al Selder: And I you know, I can cite
Al Selder: many
Al Selder: things that had occurred in my life
Al Selder: where having these brothers shoulder to shoulder have made a huge difference.
Al Selder: I think now we're referring to that as the journey of illumination.
Al Selder: And so the MROP is just one part of that.
Al Selder: But
Al Selder: it is a
Al Selder: journey and
Al Selder: it's a lifelong commitment.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: I don't feel I would be who I am today
Al Selder: had I not had
Al Selder: that initial experience and then the continuing time
Al Selder: meeting with my brothers on a weekly basis.
Al Selder: We've been doing this
Al Selder: for many, many
Al Selder: years.
Al Selder: And so I think that's
Al Selder: really the big takeaway of it is
Al Selder: you got to take
Al Selder: it's not something you just check off and do.
Al Selder: There's got to be something
Al Selder: even
Al Selder: Richard mentioned
Al Selder: to be generative.
Al Selder: You have
Al Selder: to give back in some manner.
Al Selder: And I think that's really what
Al Selder: Says, what can I do and give back?
Al Selder: So, again,
Al Selder: one of the affirmations I just had yesterday is that, you know,
Al Selder: my son, who we
Al Selder: Used as a guinea pig for a lot of the stuff we were trying to do here in Arizona, took a lot of the stuff to heart.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: just now that he's
Al Selder: You know, he's well into his career and stuff
Al Selder: in his mid-30s.
Al Selder: He's seeing, hey,
Al Selder: I need this.
Al Selder: I've seen what it's done for you.
Al Selder: I've had some experiences myself, and I want to
Al Selder: now take this on it, and
Al Selder: feel very grateful for that.
Brian Mueller: How do the rites affect your relationships, specifically
Brian Mueller: you know, your personal relationships, your relationships with other men in your community, and
Brian Mueller: how did that affect also the conversations you would have with others?
Al Selder: I think the big thing was,
Al Selder: as I mentioned earlier, is that
Al Selder: How what
Al Selder: can I do
Al Selder: to
Al Selder: provide these experiences for other men?
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: I know for me
Al Selder: you know, everybody has different gifts that they have.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: one of the things I realized too
Al Selder: is that the group of men that we we ended up forming in our
Al Selder: chapter here, we all had different gifts and
Al Selder: different backgrounds.
Al Selder: And it in a in an
Al Selder: secular world, if you will,
Al Selder: we probably never would have connected.
Al Selder: But in this work, we had that common goal.
Al Selder: So we all brought different things to that.
Al Selder: And so
Al Selder: my
Al Selder: drive was to
Al Selder: I tended to be the one working in the background
Al Selder: on the organizational side of things.
Al Selder: And so I
Al Selder: always had the goal
Al Selder: : what could I
Al Selder: do
Al Selder: to create the environment that this
Al Selder: transformative work can take place.
Al Selder: And so I was looking to make sure there was
Al Selder: just the creature comforts were taken care of
Al Selder: so that that wouldn't be a distraction.
Al Selder: so
Al Selder: that the men that would come to these
Al Selder: events
Al Selder: could do the work that they came to do without worrying about
Al Selder: what they're going to eat or
Al Selder: Where they're going to sleep
Al Selder: and
Al Selder: all those sorts of things.
Al Selder: So that's really where I kind of felt my calling.
Al Selder: As far as
Al Selder: me personally
Al Selder: ,
Al Selder: This
Al Selder: question has come up before
Al Selder: says,
Al Selder: where would
Al Selder: I be today had I not done this?
Al Selder: And quite frankly, I'm not sure.
Al Selder: It would have
Al Selder: probably
Al Selder: been different.
Al Selder: But I think
Al Selder: as a whole, I don't regret any of this.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: I think it's made me somewhat a more compassionate person.
Al Selder: There's been other things that have come up that have
Al Selder: realize that, hey, I'm just not an island.
Al Selder: I definitely need other men, other people around me to get you know to get to where I need to go.
Al Selder: And so there's definitely been some
Al Selder: humbling experiences that have come out of this.
Al Selder: And so it's really hard to say what distinctly has changed.
Al Selder: There's not been any major aha moment like this.
Al Selder: It's just been a slow, gradual transition.
Brian Mueller: Now, let me ask you, did the rites change your understanding of masculinity
Brian Mueller: initiation
Brian Mueller: or the male purpose in life?
Brian Mueller: And if so,
Brian Mueller: how did they change?
Al Selder: You know, in the early part in my
Al Selder: twenties, just starting my career, in
Al Selder: the interfaces you
Al Selder: had, most of the conversations tend to be fairly shallow.
Al Selder: And I think this
Al Selder: what this experience has shown me is that it's
Al Selder: okay to open up
Al Selder: to
Al Selder: others, especially another group of men.
Al Selder: But what's important is to
Al Selder: gain trust
Al Selder: and to allow yourself to become vulnerable.
Al Selder: And I think that's the key thing that
Al Selder: I didn't get
Al Selder: again, that's one of the things that really drove Richard to do this
Al Selder: is that
Al Selder: guys would have a tendency to bottle things up.
Al Selder: I thought I was kind of open, but I think I was never getting
Al Selder: to that level where I could really get into the
Al Selder: any issues that might be coming up.
Al Selder: So that's the sharing of your stories, but listening to other men's stories, because there's so much that can be learned from what others have, they are
Al Selder: going through.
Al Selder: And some of you
Al Selder: can just relate to and say, yeah, I kind of went through that too.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: it's good to hear how others have done that.
Al Selder: And so
Al Selder: in your normal work life
Al Selder: Social life,
Al Selder: what have you, don't you don't get into those sorts of things.
Al Selder: And I think it's necessary
Al Selder: to really be a whole person
Al Selder: to sort
Al Selder: through that.
Al Selder: I think
Al Selder: I think a lot of the issues with depression and addictions and those sorts of things are just because the
Al Selder: guys
Al Selder: don't have that
Al Selder: That intimate
Al Selder: contact and
Al Selder: things
Al Selder: within either their church community or whatever.
Al Selder: And so I think this is a valuable, for me, anyway,
Al Selder: I don't think I'd be where I am today.
Al Selder: without it.
Al Selder: But as
Al Selder: the question you asked earlier, I can't pinpoint any specific things that has changed.
Al Selder: I think as a whole, I'm sure I'm different than I would have been had I not
Al Selder: done this.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, Al, thank you.
Brian Mueller: I hear you saying that there's a depth of relationship and even the ability to be more vulnerable in your relationships.
Brian Mueller: Let me shift a little bit here and let me talk a little bit about Aero Vipa.
Brian Mueller: I just want to say, you know, years ago
Brian Mueller: after I made my rites, I was not tethered to any one place and I spent some time out in Arizona
Brian Mueller: and
Brian Mueller: I found your council group in the Phoenix area to be very welcoming to me
Brian Mueller: and
Brian Mueller: the community that you and others
Brian Mueller: have created to be just wonderful.
Brian Mueller: And you invited me to a retreat that spring at Aravaipa Canyon.
Brian Mueller: And
Brian Mueller: Aravaipa Canyon Ranch is also where the MROP is hosted.
Brian Mueller: Can you tell us a little bit about
Brian Mueller: why
Brian Mueller: Aravaipa is such a sacred place for so many men in the Illuman Community
Brian Mueller: and describe that a little bit?
Al Selder: So as I mentioned, in
Al Selder: my time
Al Selder: in the desert there
Al Selder: during the MROP, I had that vision of the flickering leaves and the running water.
Al Selder: And you don't find that in a lot of places in Arizona, let alone
Al Selder: it be year-round.
Al Selder: So, you know, Aravaipa Creek is uniquely runs, water runs year-round.
Al Selder: So, as we learned a little bit more about this ranch and the owner, David Riker,
Al Selder: he had a connection with Richard years ago
Al Selder: when he bought the ranch.
Al Selder: And Richard came out initially
Al Selder: blessed
Al Selder: The site, and there was a particular area on there that
Al Selder: they really were drawn to.
Al Selder: Some of the history of Aravaipa
Al Selder: ran
Al Selder: of the Aravaipa area
Al Selder: is that there's a lot of the
Al Selder: Native Americans who are very prevalent in this area.
Al Selder: In fact,
Al Selder: I don't tell this story
Al Selder: as well as others, but
Al Selder: I think it was Geronimo
Al Selder: was
Al Selder: actually in this
Al Selder: holdup in the Aravaipa
Al Selder: area.
Al Selder: But one of the the tragic things that happened is during the, you know, some of the
Al Selder: wars that are
Al Selder: occurred in the early part of our
Al Selder: our nation
Al Selder: is that there was a massacre in this
Al Selder: in this whole Aravaipa area.
Al Selder: And so there's a spiritual connection,
Al Selder: very strong spiritual connection here.
Al Selder: With what
Al Selder: has happened.
Al Selder: And so there was you know, David had this desire to have this
Al Selder: retreat center set up.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: so he has this this ranch house that can accommodate up to thirty people.
Al Selder: And so when we decided to do the MROPs there, we realized that
Al Selder: we're going to have to expand it.
Al Selder: And so
Al Selder: one of the things that I think
Al Selder: was
Al Selder: interesting is when we were looking
Al Selder: we had to set up a
Al Selder: a tent area to you know
Al Selder: for the meeting space.
Al Selder: As we were looking for a spot
Al Selder: we gleaned in
Al Selder: in the field
Al Selder: To have this one area, it turns out
Al Selder: that is the area that Richard felt this very strong
Al Selder: connection
Al Selder: I think one of the draws at Aravaipa
Al Selder: is, again,
Al Selder: that spiritual connection to the land, to
Al Selder: the history, to the people that were there before,
Al Selder: the magnificent views
Al Selder: It just had all the elements that you would
Al Selder: you
Al Selder: would want to have for that
Al Selder: the
Al Selder: quote
Al Selder: desert experience.
Al Selder: And so it just we become
Al Selder: very connected there.
Al Selder: And every time we go down there, it's just like we're entering
Al Selder: We talk
Al Selder: a lot of times in this work of
Al Selder: the liminal space.
Al Selder: And so it's just like we're entering into,
Al Selder: it almost doesn't matter what's happening outside.
Al Selder: We enter into this, and there's just a peace that comes over everybody.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: So, when we plan these events, and I think this is true profit for everybody that
Al Selder: does these MOPs, you do all this planning.
Al Selder: But things never tend to work out the way you plan, but they work out exactly the way they're supposed to.
Al Selder: And so we finally
Al Selder: just kind of laugh with it when things go
Al Selder: different directions
Al Selder: as
Al Selder: well
Al Selder: So
Al Selder: we now, as we enter into the space, we say, okay,
Al Selder: go to the Holy Spirit.
Al Selder: It's all up to you now.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: we just kind of go with the flow.
Al Selder: And that this place really makes that
Al Selder: it's it's magical.
Al Selder: If opportunities come up, definitely invite anybody to go down in this
Al Selder: to the air vibe
Brian Mueller: area.
Brian Mueller: Thank you.
Brian Mueller: I'd like to invite you to say a little bit more about the MROP from your many years of experience.
Brian Mueller: I was so fortunate to be able to
Brian Mueller: volunteer to help support the MROP at Aravaipa in 2024.
Brian Mueller: And one of the things I always like to tell guys is
Brian Mueller: that's the best food you'll ever have at an MROP.
Brian Mueller: Your cooking staff does a great, great job.
Brian Mueller: Of course, I was fasting during the MROP, so I missed out on a lot of it.
Brian Mueller: But
Brian Mueller: I just think it's such a wonderful location,
Brian Mueller: the opportunity for men to sleep outdoors as part of the event.
Brian Mueller: But those are just some personal reflections.
Brian Mueller: I I really want you, because you
Brian Mueller: had so many events at Aravaipa, many MROPs, but also many other retreats and things like that.
Brian Mueller: Just talk a little bit about your
Brian Mueller: the depth and breadth of your experience in men's work,
Brian Mueller: Illumante men's work
Brian Mueller: specifically, and where that's led you.
Al Selder: Again, as I first
Al Selder: got initiated in 2005, got involved in helping out with
Al Selder: various events
Al Selder: and then
Al Selder: We really had this
Al Selder: des
Al Selder: we had the first two MROPs in Oracle in 2005 and 2007.
Al Selder: It was at a YMCA camp, and it was very nice, and they took really good care.
Al Selder: But we just felt like there was just something
Al Selder: Missing.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: so that's, as I mentioned earlier,
Al Selder: as I was
Al Selder: reflecting
Al Selder: that time out in the desert, I just had that
Al Selder: strong sense of this place.
Al Selder: With
Al Selder: the running water and the flickering leaves.
Al Selder: And when I went out here, we
Al Selder: saw this and
Al Selder: said, This is the place
Al Selder: where we need to do this.
Al Selder: And so
Al Selder: we found
Al Selder: the ranch and we got connected with David.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: the history of the ranch was it was built
Al Selder: in the 60s by a Seven
Al Selder: Day Adventist
Al Selder: minister.
Al Selder: It was right
Al Selder: by the creek.
Al Selder: It was
Al Selder: pretty basic,
Al Selder: but at least
Al Selder: it was
Al Selder: s
Al Selder: had
Al Selder: some of amenities that would be useful for
Al Selder: doing an event.
Al Selder: So
Al Selder: I had
Al Selder: a kitchen, a couple stoves, a few refrigerators.
Al Selder: And we realized if we were going to do an event there, there's no catering service that we could probably get to come out.
Al Selder: There's no grocery store nearby.
Al Selder: And so
Al Selder: part
Al Selder: probably one of the most difficult things
Al Selder: to make this work is
Al Selder: is the kit
Al Selder: you mentioned the food.
Al Selder: And so
Al Selder: the first part of my involvement out there is I was managing the kitchen.
Al Selder: And so I came up with a
Al Selder: process
Al Selder: to
Al Selder: get
Al Selder: everything put together for that.
Al Selder: And that was
Al Selder: Quite an undertaking.
Al Selder: In fact, I ended up writing a guide
Al Selder: on
Al Selder: doing
Al Selder: this
Al Selder: for any other
Al Selder: chapters that
Al Selder: were going to do an MROP where they had to provide their own food because
Al Selder: it it adds a
Al Selder: whole
Al Selder: different level of complexity
Al Selder: when you have to add that element.
Al Selder: Because it
Al Selder: it's necessary that
Al Selder: provide food over those days.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: so that
Al Selder: that was probably the biggest challenge, but I
Al Selder: I I've always enjoyed uh food prep and just
Al Selder: rather than just preparing for a small group or the family
Al Selder: Back
Al Selder: one year, I think it was in twenty sixteen, we had ninety
Al Selder: two men at Aravaipa.
Al Selder: And so we had men
Al Selder: about thirty in the houses.
Al Selder: We had tents set up
Al Selder: all over the property.
Al Selder: It was
Al Selder: quite a transformation from this
Al Selder: ranch to almost a small city.
Al Selder: I still don't know how we do we pulled that off, but it
Al Selder: was really quite an experience.
Al Selder: And so
Al Selder: as time went on, I just took on more and more responsibility, eventually
Al Selder: became the MORP coordinator
Al Selder: for the event.
Al Selder: So I had to build a team to do all the things.
Al Selder: including the kitchen, and then eventually
Al Selder: became the convener for Arizona, as long with still
Al Selder: managing the MROPs.
Al Selder: It was just like the little stepping stones along the way.
Al Selder: But
Al Selder: again,
Al Selder: I think the big thing was
Al Selder: that we wanted
Al Selder: when we found this place
Al Selder: in the feelings that we had.
Al Selder: and the subsequent
Al Selder: events that we've had there.
Al Selder: It's the
Al Selder: you know, remember I
Al Selder: mentioned that one of my goals is to create an environment for transformation and take place.
Al Selder: This is that place.
Brian Mueller: This is the year that Illuman is celebrating the 30th anniversary of the very first rites of passage that Father Richard gave at a Ghost Ranch in New Mexico.
Brian Mueller: And as someone who's been involved in this work for many years and through many iterations, including Illuman, what hopes do you have for the future of the MROP?
Al Selder: I'd certainly like to see those continue
Al Selder: due to many factors.
Al Selder: We didn't do one here in 2026, but
Al Selder: I think
Al Selder: the work needs to continue
Al Selder: But I think, again, I know there's been
Al Selder: a shift to really make sure that men can, beyond the event itself, need to stay engaged.
Al Selder: And so I know there's been a real push to really further what they would call the
Al Selder: Journey of Illumination
Al Selder: of
Al Selder: connecting and
Al Selder: serving and all those sorts of things.
Al Selder: And I think the connection element is one of the keys is
Al Selder: guys
Al Selder: need to fi
Al Selder: connect with others to share their stories and to hear the stories.
Al Selder: you know
Al Selder: this day and age we
Al Selder: so we
Al Selder: we get so distracted with
Al Selder: social media and all those other
Al Selder: things
Al Selder: that we've almost
Al Selder: in a sense
Al Selder: been isolating ourselves
Al Selder: I mean it's a real
Al Selder: a real issue with some of our young people
Al Selder: this needs to always be available
Al Selder: as a healing experience for whatever is needed.
Al Selder: As I as unlike other retreats, as
Al Selder: mentioned
Al Selder: This is a unique experience for each person.
Al Selder: So
Al Selder: there may be 40 or 50 men that are being initiated.
Al Selder: It's a
Al Selder: unique
Al Selder: event for each one of them.
Al Selder: They're all going to leave with something different.
Brian Mueller: Thank you.
Brian Mueller: I have just one more question for you.
Brian Mueller: And we've now started what I call MROP
Brian Mueller: season
Brian Mueller: here as we get into the late spring.
Brian Mueller: Summer months.
Brian Mueller: And so the very first men's rites of passage actually began yesterday in Northern California.
Brian Mueller: And that'll be the first rites that happen
Brian Mueller: this year.
Brian Mueller: I'd like you to extend an invitation.
Brian Mueller: I'm hoping that other men will be listening to this and
Brian Mueller: be considering
Brian Mueller: participating in a men's rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: What would you say to a man
Brian Mueller: urging him to participate in a men's rites of passage?
Al Selder: Do I
Al Selder: get a a call or
Al Selder: if there's
Al Selder: if I
Al Selder: run into a man that I think is struggling in some manner, and I think this could be
Al Selder: a good
Al Selder: experience is
Al Selder: usually what I ask on an invitation is, have you found yourself in a point in your life that you kind of feel stuck?
Al Selder: You're well into your career, other things are going on, and there
Al Selder: may be some things that you're struggling with, but
Al Selder: you don't know how to really deal with it.
Al Selder: And a lot of it is, is there's all this excess baggage.
Al Selder: And I said
Al Selder: and I said, what this event will help you do is to sort
Al Selder: through that
Al Selder: baggage.
Al Selder: Release it, grieve over it, and then open
Al Selder: yourself up to what the possibilities are.
Al Selder: And
Al Selder: just to
Al Selder: go with that mindset.
Al Selder: So if you feel like
Al Selder: that, yeah, I'm stuck at this point
Al Selder: and I really need
Al Selder: a way to kind of reset in some manner.
Al Selder: I think the MROP could be very a very positive experience.
Al Selder: I know when Richard set this up, it's a second half of life thing.
Al Selder: So this is like after
Al Selder: in your forties and
Al Selder: what have you.
Al Selder: And the majority of men that do attend tend to be
Al Selder: in their
Al Selder: probably forties, the fifties and sixties
Al Selder: and older.
Al Selder: But we sometimes have some young men that have
Al Selder: had some
Al Selder: really strong
Al Selder: Had some life experiences that they need to dis
Al Selder: to
Al Selder: sort
Al Selder: with.
Al Selder: So I think a lot of it is
Al Selder: an
Al Selder: invitation process
Al Selder: is to get to know where a man is and his
Al Selder: journey
Al Selder: and
Al Selder: And because you've experienced the MROP yourself and you know what you went through, you can help share a little bit about your story.
Al Selder: But again, just
Al Selder: and then
Al Selder: as I was invited, hey, trust me, it was a great experience for me.
Al Selder: I think it'll be a great experience for you.
Al Selder: Just do it.
Brian Mueller: Thank you so much, Al.
Brian Mueller: I was looking forward to this conversation for a long time, even though we just made plans for this just in the last twenty four hours or so.
Brian Mueller: You and the men in
Brian Mueller: Arizona really exemplified to me what it means to be generative
Brian Mueller: and supportive and really create these opportunities for men
Brian Mueller: to experience the rites and transformation in just an awesome setting.
Brian Mueller: So
Brian Mueller: just wonderful to hear about your experience.
Brian Mueller: I just want to say I love you, brother, and
Brian Mueller: I wish you all the best.
Al Selder: Thank you so much.
Al Selder: And who knows
Al Selder: where the journey will be taking
Al Selder: us?
Al Selder: It is indeed a journey, and this is just a small step along the way.
Brian Mueller: For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul
Brian Mueller: and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites.
Brian Mueller: The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six.
Brian Mueller: While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since twenty twelve Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over
Brian Mueller: the world.
Brian Mueller: To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading “Adam's Return”
Brian Mueller: by Richard Rohr.
Brian Mueller: If you are ready to make your
Brian Mueller: rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six.
Brian Mueller: The first is in Northern California, May
Brian Mueller: thirteenth through the seventeenth
Brian Mueller: the second in the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth, and in Illinois, August twelfth through the sixteenth
Brian Mueller: there's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth.
Brian Mueller: And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is an MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth.
Brian Mueller: You can find details and registration information at Illuman dot
Brian Mueller: org slash
Brian Mueller: mrop
Brian Mueller: or
Brian Mueller: Illuman dot org slash events.
Brian Mueller: Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national
Brian Mueller: gathering of Illuman, taking place November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico.
Brian Mueller: You can find more at Illuman dot org slash awaken.
Brian Mueller: Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence.
Brian Mueller: If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life.
Brian Mueller: Download the Practicing Presence app for free
Brian Mueller: at choosingpresence dot
Brian Mueller: org
Brian Mueller: slash
Brian Mueller: app.
Brian Mueller: It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today.
Brian Mueller: Thank you for listening to
Brian Mueller: follow me to the MROP.
Brian Mueller: Until next time, brothers, stay present.