Brian Mueller: Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation.
Brian Mueller: My name is Brian Mueller.
Brian Mueller: I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen.
Brian Mueller: I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story.
Brian Mueller: This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterward.
Brian Mueller: Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude.
Brian Mueller: This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence.
Brian Mueller: We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence.
Brian Mueller: In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now.
Brian Mueller: If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot
Brian Mueller: org slash app.
Brian Mueller: Now the Men's rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and
Brian Mueller: soul.
Brian Mueller: On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path.
Brian Mueller: Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him.
Brian Mueller: My guest today is Mike Whitman.
Brian Mueller: Brother, I'm really glad you're here.
Brian Mueller: Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story.
Brian Mueller: Thank you.
Brian Mueller: I'm
Brian Mueller: glad to be here as well.
Brian Mueller: Mike, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days.
Mike Whitman: So I'm from Tawas
Mike Whitman: City, Michigan, which is about halfway up the
Mike Whitman: Huron coast of Michigan, small town, tourist
Mike Whitman: town.
Mike Whitman: I
Mike Whitman: spin
Mike Whitman: I'm retired.
Mike Whitman: I worked in
Mike Whitman: youth ministry and
Mike Whitman: youth catechetics
Mike Whitman: for about nearly 50 years.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: I've been uh
Mike Whitman: retired since two thousand and nine.
Mike Whitman: So uh
Mike Whitman: my uh
Mike Whitman: days are what I
Mike Whitman: what I want to do is what I want to do so they can be very mixed.
Mike Whitman: I like to garden in the summertime.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: I'm kind of
Brian Mueller: eager to get out there and get my hands in the dirt.
Brian Mueller: I can appreciate that.
Brian Mueller: Now, let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: The MROP is a unique experience.
Brian Mueller: It's not a retreat or a workshop, it's an initiation.
Brian Mueller: Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name.
Brian Mueller: Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning.
Brian Mueller: When and where did you make your rites, Mike?
Mike Whitman: So I made my rites in two thousand and eight at Pilgrim Park in Illinois.
Mike Whitman: And about how many men were there?
Mike Whitman: There were eighty uh
Mike Whitman: eighty men
Mike Whitman: like
Mike Whitman: and there were a few from
Mike Whitman: a couple from Europe, and I think one
Mike Whitman: might
Mike Whitman: there might have been one from Australia.
Mike Whitman: And who was your weaver?
Mike Whitman: Richard Rohr
Mike Whitman: was the weaver and uh
Brian Mueller: Pica (Stephen Piccha) was the uh
Brian Mueller: ritual
Brian Mueller: elder.
Brian Mueller: Now, when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image or feeling that comes forth for you?
Mike Whitman: So when I think back, I really
Mike Whitman: think back initially
Mike Whitman: a terror
Mike Whitman: of just getting ready, getting ready to go.
Mike Whitman: Not get
Mike Whitman: so much
Mike Whitman: not so much getting ready to go, but
Mike Whitman: probably
Mike Whitman: part
Mike Whitman: way through the trip, I thought, what the hell am I doing?
Mike Whitman: And
Mike Whitman: if I hadn't been four hours into the drive, I would have probably turned around
Mike Whitman: and gone back home.
Mike Whitman: Yeah.
Mike Whitman: So that that's my image
Mike Whitman: initially
Mike Whitman: starting out
Mike Whitman: The impact was
Mike Whitman: unbelievable.
Mike Whitman: I mean, really unbelievable.
Mike Whitman: I had no, no
Mike Whitman: idea
Mike Whitman: that it would be that impactful.
Mike Whitman: I thought it'd be a nice retreat.
Mike Whitman: I'd come home, be high for a couple
Mike Whitman: Days or a week, and then it would be over with.
Mike Whitman: But that's not what happened.
Brian Mueller: Let me
Brian Mueller: back up just a little bit and say
Brian Mueller: from that weekend, is there an experience or an interaction you had with another man?
Brian Mueller: That you'd be willing to share with us?
Brian Mueller: Maybe something that you don't feel you don't hold too closely because it's confidential or personal?
Mike Whitman: Yes.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: I was one of the oldest.
Mike Whitman: Actually, I was 60 years old.
Mike Whitman: And I did my MROP.
Mike Whitman: So I was one of the oldest guys in my family group, and probably there, other than Richard.
Mike Whitman: Richard's
Mike Whitman: two or three years older than me.
Mike Whitman: So there were
Mike Whitman: two young guys that were in my family group.
Mike Whitman: And
Mike Whitman: for some reason, they
Mike Whitman: I took on this kind of paternal role for them.
Mike Whitman: That was
Mike Whitman: I think that was softening for me
Mike Whitman: because
Mike Whitman: I was terrified through the whole experience, which I can talk about a little bit.
Mike Whitman: a little bit more, but these two guys
Mike Whitman: kind of softened me
Mike Whitman: 'cause
Mike Whitman: I
Mike Whitman: kind of was mentor and
Mike Whitman: dad to them during the uh
Brian Mueller: during the rites. So
Brian Mueller: Let's talk a little bit about what circumstances led you to participate in the rites.
Brian Mueller: What was going on
Brian Mueller: in your life at the time that you decided to register?
Mike Whitman: That's kind of
Mike Whitman: interesting.
Mike Whitman: I was pretty arrogant.
Mike Whitman: I thought I had my spiritual life down.
Mike Whitman: It was down, and
Mike Whitman: I
Mike Whitman: got it worked out.
Mike Whitman: It's fine and dandy.
Mike Whitman: And
Mike Whitman: I
Mike Whitman: had
Mike Whitman: started my master's degree
Mike Whitman: down in southern Indiana.
Mike Whitman: My dad had died the year before, and my mother was diagnosed with terminal leukemia, so
Mike Whitman: I transferred from Southern Indiana to
Mike Whitman: Loyola and Chicago.
Mike Whitman: And I was doing my
Mike Whitman: work online.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: I was working at the same time.
Mike Whitman: So I couldn't go to campus.
Mike Whitman: And I
Mike Whitman: Bill McElroy from Illinois.
Mike Whitman: He was
Mike Whitman: also in the master's program and taking the same class.
Mike Whitman: Which was called the spiritual and pastoral care of men.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: Bill, toward the end of the class, we only had a
Mike Whitman: virtual friendship because
Mike Whitman: I had never met him before.
Mike Whitman: To face.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: he, about halfway through the class, he said,
Mike Whitman: I think you, I think you're ready for a men's rites of passage.
Mike Whitman: And I said, what the hell is that?
Mike Whitman: So he said,
Mike Whitman: read
Mike Whitman: ÓAdam's Return.Ó
Mike Whitman: So I read it.
Mike Whitman: I had no acquaintance with Richard Rohr.
Mike Whitman: I didn't read I hadn't read any of his books.
Mike Whitman: That wasn't
Mike Whitman: would not have been a draw for me.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: I read the book
Mike Whitman: and I just
Mike Whitman: trusted Bill.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: I signed up, got
Mike Whitman: I was accepted
Mike Whitman: and
Mike Whitman: I
Mike Whitman: started on the journey.
Brian Mueller: Came alone to the rites, or did you come with another man?
Mike Whitman: I came alone, drove
Mike Whitman: eight hours from Michigan to
Mike Whitman: Pilgrim Park by myself.
Brian Mueller: And when you told your family, friends, your brothers, those around you at
Brian Mueller: your life, that you were planning to attend a rites of passage, what was their reaction?
Brian Mueller: What did they say?
Mike Whitman: My family would have been
Mike Whitman: not indifferent, but they would have just have thought, okay, he's doing another
Mike Whitman: crazy thing, so we'll we'll just
Mike Whitman: we'll just
Mike Whitman: accept that.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: they wouldn't have been too surprised that I was doing something
Mike Whitman: weird.
Mike Whitman: My friends,
Mike Whitman: they weren't interested or curious even
Mike Whitman: there.
Mike Whitman: So there wasn't much.
Mike Whitman: There was no resistance.
Mike Whitman: It was pretty much.
Mike Whitman: Acceptance
Mike Whitman: just because of
Mike Whitman: who I am and what I do.
Mike Whitman: And so there was
Mike Whitman: not surprise.
Mike Whitman: I don't think there was a surprise that I was
Mike Whitman: doing
Mike Whitman: something that they had no idea
Brian Mueller: what it was about, mostly because I had no idea.
Brian Mueller: Now, as you entered the rites, was there something that you were hoping to be initiated into?
Mike Whitman: Absolutely not, because I had no idea what was going to
Mike Whitman: happen to me.
Mike Whitman: No,
Mike Whitman: no, I had no idea
Mike Whitman: what was
Mike Whitman: what I was getting into.
Mike Whitman: I just
Mike Whitman: For
Mike Whitman: some
Mike Whitman: weird reason, I just trusted McElroy,
Mike Whitman: which was weird to me
Mike Whitman: because I'm pretty, pretty guarded
Mike Whitman: and pretty
Mike Whitman: I like to
Mike Whitman: feel safe.
Mike Whitman: And so I don't know why I
Mike Whitman: did it.
Mike Whitman: Yeah,
Mike Whitman: it's a surprise to me even to this date.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: 2008
Mike Whitman: is when I did mine.
Mike Whitman: And
Mike Whitman: Even now, I'm looking back and going, wow, how the hell?
Mike Whitman: What
Mike Whitman: what?
Mike Whitman: What made
Mike Whitman: me say yes to this?
Brian Mueller: Well, you already expressed that you felt a lot of terror as you
Brian Mueller: approached Pilgrim Park and entered into the rites.
Brian Mueller: Let's drill down a little bit on that.
Brian Mueller: Tell us a little bit about what that terror was.
Mike Whitman: Yeah.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: arriving, I came really early because I didn't know how long it was
Mike Whitman: going to take me to get there.
Mike Whitman: And
Mike Whitman: I was already nervous
Mike Whitman: as how
Mike Whitman: Brought into the
Mike Whitman: run-down cabins at Pilgrim Park,
Mike Whitman: going, What the hell am I doing?
Mike Whitman: And
Mike Whitman: the
Mike Whitman: First evening was pretty safe
Mike Whitman: because it was just a talk, nothing else happened.
Mike Whitman: But then the next morning
Mike Whitman: they did
Mike Whitman: the first ritual and like
Mike Whitman: It was
Mike Whitman: I had built all my walls, I had my doors locked.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: the first ritual
Mike Whitman: just
Mike Whitman: broke through, was
Mike Whitman: breaking through the barriers of my safety.
Mike Whitman: And
Mike Whitman: Making me feel
Mike Whitman: could
Mike Whitman: I couldn't name that.
Mike Whitman: I could not have named this at the time, but it made me feel vulnerable.
Mike Whitman: I
Mike Whitman: don't like that.
Mike Whitman: And so
Mike Whitman: as soon as it was finished and I was on my own
Mike Whitman: when they would send you out, I would build my wall up again
Mike Whitman: 'cause I thought, okay, this is not happening again. I
Mike Whitman: 'm s going
Mike Whitman: to be safe. I
Mike Whitman: 'm going to
Mike Whitman: make myself safe. So
Mike Whitman: But
Mike Whitman: as the week
Mike Whitman: four or five days progressed, I knew something important was happening.
Mike Whitman: I couldn't tell you what, but
Mike Whitman: I knew there I sensed there was something
Mike Whitman: Significant
Mike Whitman: going on, and it was meaningful.
Mike Whitman: But I
Mike Whitman: if you would have asked me at the time what it was, I would not have been able to explain.
Mike Whitman: So I
Mike Whitman: just kept
Mike Whitman: each ritual would break through the barrier and I would build it up again
Mike Whitman: and
Mike Whitman: next
Mike Whitman: ritual, you know, break down the barrier.
Mike Whitman: and I would build it up again.
Mike Whitman: But I sensed, like I said, I sensed there was something
Mike Whitman: important
Mike Whitman: changing, but
Brian Mueller: I could not have named it for you.
Brian Mueller: You know what I'm hearing, Mike, and
Brian Mueller: you can tell me if I'm wrong, but is the word that I'm hearing
Brian Mueller: or maybe that to describe sort of
Brian Mueller: your fear
Brian Mueller: vulnerability, a fear of
Brian Mueller: being vulnerable with these other men?
Mike Whitman: Yeah,
Mike Whitman: because
Mike Whitman: my
Mike Whitman: raising up as a male would be
Mike Whitman: other
Mike Whitman: men are dangerous, so you need to be careful with them.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: they're they're competitors.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: that would be a part of
Mike Whitman: in a way to be all unconscious.
Mike Whitman: There would
Mike Whitman: be no awareness of that.
Mike Whitman: But
Mike Whitman: like I said, those two guys
Mike Whitman: that kind of
Mike Whitman: I took under my wing,
Mike Whitman: they were softening me
Mike Whitman: because
Mike Whitman: they invited the father, that generative energy.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: that was softening me too.
Mike Whitman: I think that was an important thing
Mike Whitman: that
Mike Whitman: Side thing that was happening that would
Mike Whitman: made me
Mike Whitman: more open, I think.
Brian Mueller: Now, think back to the
Brian Mueller: the day
Brian Mueller: the rites ended,
Brian Mueller: closing ritual.
Brian Mueller: It's time for you to go.
Brian Mueller: You're able to get in the car.
Brian Mueller: You've got a long drive back to Tawas City.
Brian Mueller: And
Brian Mueller: how were you feeling?
Brian Mueller: You know, what was going on?
Mike Whitman: I was feeling
Mike Whitman: pretty
Mike Whitman: I was exhausted physically, but I was feeling
Mike Whitman: something
Mike Whitman: miraculous was happening to me.
Mike Whitman: It was hard saying goodbye to those guys, the two guys that
Mike Whitman: I
Mike Whitman: had
Mike Whitman: uh
Mike Whitman: the attachment to.
Mike Whitman: We kind of
Mike Whitman: uh
Mike Whitman: they drove a bus back to the airport, you know, spent as much time as we could until they left.
Mike Whitman: So I was feeling
Mike Whitman: strange
Mike Whitman: because
Mike Whitman: I
Mike Whitman: couldn't name what was happening to me, but it
Mike Whitman: made
Mike Whitman: me feel
Mike Whitman: new.
Mike Whitman: It made me feel different.
Mike Whitman: It made me feel
Mike Whitman: richer.
Mike Whitman: But again, if you had asked me at that time, I would have had no words to explain.
Mike Whitman: I was up, but not
Mike Whitman: No idea why
Mike Whitman: that was.
Mike Whitman: Because
Mike Whitman: like I said before, I already
Mike Whitman: I thought I had
Mike Whitman: thought
Mike Whitman: I had I got this worked out.
Mike Whitman: You know, me and God are fine, and our journey is
Mike Whitman: God
Mike Whitman: is okay with it.
Mike Whitman: So we're just going to keep on the
Mike Whitman: the
Mike Whitman: the way we've been
Mike Whitman: walking, we're going to keep walking that way.
Mike Whitman: But the uh
Mike Whitman: the rites showed me
Mike Whitman: I was pretty stuck.
Mike Whitman: And I was pretty blind in a lot of ways.
Mike Whitman: And I was very, very, very comfortable with my masks
Mike Whitman: that I had
Mike Whitman: created for myself and for other people to see me through.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: And this took months before I could
Mike Whitman: start finding names for things.
Mike Whitman: And one of them was
Mike Whitman: the invitation to vulnerability.
Mike Whitman: That was the
Mike Whitman: that was the the largest
Mike Whitman: or the greatest invitation that the rites
Mike Whitman: Offered me was this
Mike Whitman: sense of
Mike Whitman: you need to be more comfortable with vulnerability.
Mike Whitman: You need to be more open.
Mike Whitman: And it took months and months and months to open that package and to be comfortable with it.
Brian Mueller: Thank you so much for sharing that.
Brian Mueller: Let me ask you so, there's been a significant amount of time has passed since your rites, almost 20 years now.
Brian Mueller: So there's
Brian Mueller: a long period for you to have
Brian Mueller: processed that experience.
Brian Mueller: And of course, I know you because of your deep involvement and commitment to the aluminum community, both in your region and
Brian Mueller: even nationally.
Brian Mueller: So I want to ask you, what has changed in your life since making the rites, thinking practically, relationally, even spiritually?
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: on a relational level,
Mike Whitman: again, I would return to vulnerability.
Mike Whitman: I have been
Mike Whitman: in the chapter.
Mike Whitman: I've been with that chapter since it began
Mike Whitman: and been with the evolution
Mike Whitman: and my evolution
Mike Whitman: along with the evolution of the chapter.
Mike Whitman: I think
Mike Whitman: it took so long.
Mike Whitman: We would have retreats where
Mike Whitman: you would have to we'd be in the sharing groups and you would have to talk about
Mike Whitman: prompt
Mike Whitman: but respond to the prompt questions
Mike Whitman: and
Mike Whitman: I would have to unlock so many doors.
Mike Whitman: I would have to tear down so many walls to try to get to a place where I could respond.
Mike Whitman: Honestly,
Mike Whitman: concretely, and from the heart, not from the head, it would take so, so
Mike Whitman: long.
Mike Whitman: And I would be hoping
Mike Whitman: That
Mike Whitman: everyone would share and there'd be no time left.
Mike Whitman: That is exactly what I would try to manage to happen.
Mike Whitman: And
Mike Whitman: so
Mike Whitman: then
Mike Whitman: the last five years, there's been a lot more comfortableness
Mike Whitman: with
Mike Whitman: It doesn't take as long
Mike Whitman: to
Mike Whitman: get to that point where I can be honest
Mike Whitman: with myself and with uh
Mike Whitman: the men in the
Mike Whitman: In the sharing group.
Mike Whitman: So I think that's the biggest gift that the MROP gave me
Mike Whitman: was
Mike Whitman: recognizing the masks that I've created for myself and I've created for
Mike Whitman: I've given you to look at me through.
Mike Whitman: to see them as masks and not as who I am.
Mike Whitman: I think that's
Mike Whitman: one of the
Mike Whitman: greatest gifts, as I said,
Mike Whitman: that
Brian Mueller: the MROP gave me.
Brian Mueller: Mike, I believe you come from a very large family, that you're the oldest of many siblings.
Brian Mueller: And I
Brian Mueller: sense that
Brian Mueller: you participate in a community of men.
Brian Mueller: you're
Brian Mueller: very active.
Brian Mueller: And so I want to ask those of closest to you that know you've been through this rites
Brian Mueller: experience and
Brian Mueller: your involvement in Illuman, what would they say?
Brian Mueller: What's changed in Mike?
Brian Mueller: How would they perceive the changes in Mike over these last twenty years or so?
Mike Whitman: Well, I actually asked one of my sisters.
Mike Whitman: I have five sisters and four brothers.
Mike Whitman: So I asked one of my sisters who's
Mike Whitman: Eight on the Enneagram.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: she's pretty honest.
Mike Whitman: She's pretty in your face.
Mike Whitman: I said, Kathy, have you
Mike Whitman: noticed any changes?
Mike Whitman: And she said, Yeah, you're a lot less negative.
Mike Whitman: Well, that's good.
Mike Whitman: Yeah.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: Yeah, I think if you'd ask the guys in my chapter, they would
Mike Whitman: say that
Mike Whitman: I have
Mike Whitman: softened.
Mike Whitman: And I think that
Mike Whitman: 's
Mike Whitman: that's another one of the gifts that the
Mike Whitman: rites
Mike Whitman: and Illuman
Mike Whitman: has provided and the guys
Mike Whitman: in my chapter, because they have been so
Mike Whitman: So patient and
Mike Whitman: gently, gently challenging with me.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: I really
Mike Whitman: I have written, and I've said before, I don't know where I'd be if I hadn't had that experience.
Mike Whitman: It
Mike Whitman: really
Mike Whitman: That's how changing it was for me.
Mike Whitman: And
Mike Whitman: it continues to be unpacked now.
Mike Whitman: Even now, I'm still unpacking my experience.
Brian Mueller: Thank you so much for sharing that.
Brian Mueller: How is your understanding of masculinity, initiation, and even the male purpose in life changed over these years?
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: initiation
Mike Whitman: ritual,
Mike Whitman: especially rituals
Mike Whitman: become very, very meaningful
Mike Whitman: and
Mike Whitman: for almost from the beginning.
Mike Whitman: I've just
Mike Whitman: ended
Mike Whitman: that role in the chapter.
Mike Whitman: I have been the ritual elder, so ritual has been very, very important.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: we have
Mike Whitman: in our chapter, we've created a
Mike Whitman: rite of passage for boys and dads or mentors.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: watching that and how meaningful it is to the men and the boys,
Mike Whitman: especially the dads or the mentor, the transform
Mike Whitman: there's a big transformation that takes place.
Mike Whitman: The
Mike Whitman: masculinity, the definition for that is so flexible for me now.
Mike Whitman: It's not as defined as it was before, and it was so hard to achieve the
Mike Whitman: the goal that had been given to me for defining what manhood was about.
Mike Whitman: It was
Mike Whitman: a goal that was painful, hard, and
Mike Whitman: only encouraged
Mike Whitman: Encouraging me to be more and more
Mike Whitman: protective of myself,
Mike Whitman: more guarded, more hidden.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: yeah,
Mike Whitman: my
Mike Whitman: understanding of masculinity and maleness
Mike Whitman: has been
Mike Whitman: transformed in
Mike Whitman: significant ways.
Mike Whitman: I think in a healthier way.
Mike Whitman: So I'd say
Mike Whitman: I see it up to each
Mike Whitman: man to
Mike Whitman: define how
Mike Whitman: he
Mike Whitman: is going to try to live out masculinity
Mike Whitman: and his maleness.
Mike Whitman: Not so well defined as
Mike Whitman: it was when I was a kid.
Mike Whitman: I know
Mike Whitman: my dad and I crossed swords all the time because he had some certain expectations
Mike Whitman: and I would not meet them partly on purpose.
Mike Whitman: Those expectations came out of his own way that he was trained,
Mike Whitman: and the archetype that he was
Mike Whitman: a dark archetype that he was trained in as
Mike Whitman: being a man and being masculine.
Brian Mueller: Absolutely.
Brian Mueller: In fact, I was hearing so much good stuff
Brian Mueller: that
Brian Mueller: I was going to ask you a little bit more about your spirituality, but let me put a
Brian Mueller: finer point on it.
Brian Mueller: you know, as somebody who's dedicated his life to his own spiritual formation
Brian Mueller: and then through the
Brian Mueller: pastoring of youth, their spiritual formation as well, you know, how has this experience
Brian Mueller: energized your paternal energies and
Brian Mueller: changed your approach,
Brian Mueller: both
Brian Mueller: especially
Brian Mueller: I guess I'm curious
Brian Mueller: in
Brian Mueller: how you mentor and pastor young people and young men.
Mike Whitman: when I finished the MROP, I I
Mike Whitman: retired in two thousand and nine.
Mike Whitman: So when I finished the MROP, the idea of initiation was
Mike Whitman: more
Mike Whitman: I had been engaged in creating rituals for myself, trying to find my own way to manhood, without knowing I was doing it.
Mike Whitman: I'm looking back now and seeing it.
Mike Whitman: And I was talking to my baby brother, and he's 22 years younger than me.
Mike Whitman: So I was a second dad to him
Mike Whitman: in a
Mike Whitman: really,
Mike Whitman: really, in a serious way.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: he
Mike Whitman: I was talking to him about my rites, and he he said to me, Mike, do you know you did that for us?
Mike Whitman: meeting him and my nephews.
Mike Whitman: And I said, how?
Mike Whitman: And so he would talk
Mike Whitman: he would talk to me
Mike Whitman: how I had created these
Mike Whitman: kind of liminal
Mike Whitman: spaces, passageways.
Mike Whitman: That I was not aware of.
Mike Whitman: I had some awareness I was doing it on purpose, or
Mike Whitman: that was my intention.
Mike Whitman: After the rites of initiation, then
Mike Whitman: I became very intentional when I was mentoring a kid.
Mike Whitman: I
Mike Whitman: became very intentional about noticing the liminal spaces
Mike Whitman: he
Mike Whitman: or she might be in, and I would.
Mike Whitman: How to have them identify them
Mike Whitman: and to say
Mike Whitman: yes to passing through them.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: I think I became more intentional.
Brian Mueller: One of the things that has been
Brian Mueller: a cornerstone of yours and my relationship, and
Brian Mueller: I'm not sure exactly where we met, Mike.
Brian Mueller: It might have been out at Soularize, which used to take place at Tamaya, New Mexico.
Brian Mueller: But
Brian Mueller: very early on,
Brian Mueller: you identify as a Type One on the Enneagram, and I do as well.
Brian Mueller: And
Brian Mueller: I
Brian Mueller: firmly believe from my own exploration of the Enneagram and what I've learned is that some of our best teachers
Brian Mueller: are
Brian Mueller: the men and women that are the same type as we are.
Brian Mueller: It's one of the reasons that I was
Brian Mueller: I think I've been very attracted to Richard Rohr and his work, and maybe you could say the same.
Brian Mueller: But there's going to be some people
Brian Mueller: listening to that are
Brian Mueller: not as familiar with the Enneagram, although it's really popular within Illuman
Brian Mueller: as a means for further development and growth.
Brian Mueller: First, let me ask you, can you tell our listeners
Brian Mueller: What
Brian Mueller: the Type One on the Enneagram
Brian Mueller: what's the titles or the names for that and
Brian Mueller: what that is, being a Type One?
Mike Whitman: For me, the title that I was
Mike Whitman: first
Mike Whitman: exposed to was The Perfectionist.
Mike Whitman: which
Mike Whitman: fit me so well
Mike Whitman: because it was
Mike Whitman: being the oldest child of ten
Mike Whitman: and parents telling you you have to be their model
Mike Whitman: and it just
Mike Whitman: spoke to my
Mike Whitman: personality type, the the
Mike Whitman: one
Mike Whitman: the perfectionist
Mike Whitman: who just spoke to that.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: part of the problem
Mike Whitman: though, which the Enneagram has helped me to recognize, and it really has softened me
Mike Whitman: because
Mike Whitman: The Enneagram asks you to accept yourself the way you are.
Mike Whitman: Accept those broken, those sharp edges, the masks that you create, just to accept those things, not complacently.
Mike Whitman: But let them
Mike Whitman: tell you
Mike Whitman: let them tell you the story
Mike Whitman: of how they came into existence, why they came into existence, why you need them.
Mike Whitman: and how you can use them as a tool instead of them using you,
Mike Whitman: instead of them
Mike Whitman: being
Mike Whitman: on automatic
Mike Whitman: and inviting you to only be reactionary
Mike Whitman: rather than that you're intentional about
Mike Whitman: Using your personality type as a tool.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: I use, I'm a spiritual director, so I use that with my directees, and I always say to them, you are not your personality.
Mike Whitman: There is
Mike Whitman: more mystery there than that personality identification.
Mike Whitman: And that's the thing you need to open yourself up to: that deeper mystery of who you are.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, I experience you as a wonderfully integrated One.
Brian Mueller: And
Brian Mueller: you mentioned the title Perfectionist, another one that people will hear
Brian Mueller: often is Reformer.
Brian Mueller: And unhealthy Ones are known for being maybe
Brian Mueller: too critical.
Brian Mueller: Although I I think a lot of people don't understand that
Brian Mueller: the worst criticism
Brian Mueller: One's often reserved for themselves.
Brian Mueller: It's that voice in their head.
Brian Mueller: And there's some wounding, there's some deep wounding within the One that
Brian Mueller: a fear of not being good enough.
Brian Mueller: And
Brian Mueller: once they're more integrated in their better perspectives, they're able to kind of see the world more
Brian Mueller: holistically as sort of having a divine perfection, and they're
Brian Mueller: able to
Brian Mueller: do that for themselves and actually invite other people into that space of serenity and
Brian Mueller: peace.
Brian Mueller: So
Brian Mueller: I don't know if you were aware of your type when you did your men's rites of passage, but how has the rites of passage helped with your
Brian Mueller: understanding and integration of the of the Enneagram?
Mike Whitman: I think it's
Mike Whitman: the intentionality of
Mike Whitman: maybe
Mike Whitman: I'll use a different word.
Mike Whitman: I
Mike Whitman: have come to a place where I've been asking God for radical inner honesty, which I'm like, what the hell are you doing?
Mike Whitman: I'll be 79 on May 7th.
Mike Whitman: So I'm at a place where
Mike Whitman: I think it's common for
Mike Whitman: people
Mike Whitman: this age, or hopefully
Mike Whitman: anyway, to begin to reflect, do
Mike Whitman: life reflection, looking
Mike Whitman: looking at back
Mike Whitman: at one's life
Mike Whitman: and
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: I've been able
Mike Whitman: I'm not sure if I'm answering your question, but I've been able to
Mike Whitman: step into a place where I realize, wow, you are so, so dishonest there.
Mike Whitman: or
Mike Whitman: into a relation
Mike Whitman: relationship that I may have
Mike Whitman: engaged and
Mike Whitman: thought, wow, this is I'm doing
Mike Whitman: really good work here.
Mike Whitman: Then I realize
Mike Whitman: you had a lot of other needs that you're trying to have met
Mike Whitman: to that person.
Mike Whitman: And so
Mike Whitman: I've been able to stay inside of that pain
Mike Whitman: of recognizing that dishonesty.
Mike Whitman: And
Mike Whitman: not try to escape into a mask
Mike Whitman: where
Mike Whitman: I'm the good boy, the image of being the good boy.
Mike Whitman: So I think that's that one thing that
Mike Whitman: that's been a gift to the Enneagram because of that softening that it's done
Mike Whitman: for me
Mike Whitman: of
Mike Whitman: accepting myself the way I am
Mike Whitman: and other people, accepting other people the way they are, and life as it is in the moment I'm in, and
Mike Whitman: being open to the fact that tomorrow is going to be different.
Mike Whitman: Or the next
Mike Whitman: moment might be different, but just to try
Mike Whitman: to stay present
Mike Whitman: in the moment that I'm in.
Mike Whitman: Yeah, so my spirituality, going back to that, my spirituality has changed a great deal.
Mike Whitman: The kind of spirituality I engage
Mike Whitman: I'm engaged in
Mike Whitman: and have been for most of my life is
Mike Whitman: Spousal spirituality.
Mike Whitman: So it's really a heart spirituality.
Mike Whitman: Most of the time, in the beginning, I was in my head though, that that's the part that the MROP and Illuman has helped with
Mike Whitman: of
Mike Whitman: recognizing that
Mike Whitman: It
Mike Whitman: might be spiritual
Mike Whitman: spousal spirituality, but you've been in your head
Mike Whitman: trying to live it in your head and not in your heart.
Mike Whitman: I think that's what the MROP and Illuman has dropped me down
Mike Whitman: into
Mike Whitman: my heart.
Mike Whitman: And
Mike Whitman: the Enneagram has done that
Mike Whitman: too, because, like I said, the softening part.
Mike Whitman: where
Mike Whitman: it softens you
Mike Whitman: and doesn't leave you so hard.
Mike Whitman: As a One
Mike Whitman: so
Mike Whitman: hard, where you're in your head criticizing yourself constantly.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, that's very resonant for me, that hard edge.
Brian Mueller: And
Brian Mueller: again, the hardest edge at you is for myself, reserve for myself.
Brian Mueller: I used to think
Brian Mueller: these people think I'm being hard on them.
Brian Mueller: They should be inside my head.
Brian Mueller: I can tell there's
Brian Mueller: a lot of transformation that's gone on with you.
Brian Mueller: This is an audio-only
Brian Mueller: podcast, but I'm looking at the sign that's hanging behind you on the wall.
Brian Mueller: It says, ÒMy family tree is full of nuts.Ó
Brian Mueller: And
Brian Mueller: that made me chuckle.
Brian Mueller: And I think that's testament to you as
Brian Mueller: a Type One and Enneagram
Brian Mueller: being able to just kind of accept
Brian Mueller: happily, the
Brian Mueller: situation of your family members and just
Brian Mueller: sort of the crazy making things that
Brian Mueller: are just part of life.
Brian Mueller: Let me ask you one more question, Mike.
Brian Mueller: Since we've been talking Enneagram, can you make the case for someone who knows their Enneagram type number and says, yeah, I think I'm a Type One on the Enneagram,
Brian Mueller: make a case for them participating in the men's rites of a passage and what that
Brian Mueller: might do for them?
Mike Whitman: So I think if
Mike Whitman: if you're a Type One, I would
Mike Whitman: say to you
Mike Whitman: ,
Mike Whitman: go to the rites of passage
Mike Whitman: because it's going to invite you
Mike Whitman: Into a place of generativity,
Mike Whitman: into
Mike Whitman: a place
Mike Whitman: where you are
Mike Whitman: going to love yourself and you're going to look out and you're going to see
Mike Whitman: out
Mike Whitman: there, miracles going on around you, ordinary miracles just happening everywhere.
Mike Whitman: And it will put you in a place where you will
Mike Whitman: not want to escape from ever again.
Mike Whitman: It
Mike Whitman: will
Mike Whitman: make you
Mike Whitman: Want to be with
Mike Whitman: yourself.
Mike Whitman: I want
Mike Whitman: you to
Mike Whitman: be with all the other imperfect people in the world that you're going to encounter.
Mike Whitman: And the realization that our perfection is in our imperfection.
Mike Whitman: That's the piece that I really appreciated from the Enneagram and the MROP.
Mike Whitman: my
Mike Whitman: life with Illuman
Mike Whitman: and how I've been trying to incorporate that,
Mike Whitman: integrate that into myself.
Mike Whitman: That
Mike Whitman: acceptance of
Mike Whitman: imperfection,
Mike Whitman: not complacently, but
Mike Whitman: accepting it.
Mike Whitman: It's a part of life
Mike Whitman: and transformation is just around the corner.
Mike Whitman: And
Mike Whitman: I think that's the liminal space that the MROP offers.
Mike Whitman: It offers this huge
Mike Whitman: five-day
Mike Whitman: liminal space, and
Mike Whitman: there is a communal experience of that liminal space
Mike Whitman: and a unique experience of that liminal space
Mike Whitman: unique to the individual person.
Mike Whitman: So
Mike Whitman: And when I
Mike Whitman: look back in my MROP, I see so many doorways that open, passageways and liminal moments
Mike Whitman: that I said yes to.
Mike Whitman: And I'm like
Mike Whitman: I'm surprised that I said yes to Bill McElroy's invitation.
Mike Whitman: surprised I took those passageways, no matter how terrified I was.
Mike Whitman: I I walked through them.
Mike Whitman: Yeah, I think that's the courage that you
Brian Mueller: experience.
Brian Mueller: Thank you so much.
Brian Mueller: That's wonderful.
Brian Mueller: And I just want to acknowledge, too, you obviously
Brian Mueller: have a Two-wing on the Enneagram.
Brian Mueller: I always feel your big heart.
Brian Mueller: I really appreciate that.
Brian Mueller: You have a lot of love for people and
Brian Mueller: for the men in this work.
Brian Mueller: And
Brian Mueller: And so thank you for your time today, for sharing your honesty, your courage, sharing about your rites of passage experience, and thank you too for being such a big part of the Illuman
Brian Mueller: community.
Brian Mueller: Thank you, Brian.
Mike Whitman: I'm glad that we bumped into each other wherever that was.
Mike Whitman: And
Mike Whitman: I'm so glad I bumped into
Mike Whitman: Bill McElroy.
Mike Whitman: I really don't know what life would have been like.
Brian Mueller: I hear you.
Brian Mueller: I love you, brother, and I look forward to seeing you
Brian Mueller: soon.
Brian Mueller: Thank you.
Brian Mueller: For those listening
Brian Mueller: who are now feeling a tug in their own soul
Brian Mueller: and are curious to learn more
Brian Mueller: Allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites.
Brian Mueller: The men's rites of passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six.
Brian Mueller: While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action
Brian Mueller: and Contemplation, since twenty twelve Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over
Brian Mueller: the world.
Brian Mueller: To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading ÒAdam's ReturnÓ
Brian Mueller: by Richard Rohr.
Brian Mueller: If you are ready to make your
Brian Mueller: rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six.
Brian Mueller: The first is in Northern California, May
Brian Mueller: thirteenth through the seventeenth
Brian Mueller: the second in the United Kingdom, July twenty second
Brian Mueller: through the twenty sixth, and in Illinois, August twelfth through the sixteenth
Brian Mueller: there's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth.
Brian Mueller: And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is an MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth.
Brian Mueller: You can find details and registration information at Illuman dot
Brian Mueller: org slash
Brian Mueller: mrop.
Brian Mueller: or
Brian Mueller: Illuman dot org slash events.
Brian Mueller: Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national
Brian Mueller: gathering of Illuman, taking place November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico.
Brian Mueller: You can find more at Illuman dot org slash awaken.
Brian Mueller: Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence.
Brian Mueller: If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life.
Brian Mueller: Download the Practicing Presence app for free
Brian Mueller: at choosingpresence dot
Brian Mueller: org
Brian Mueller: slash app.
Brian Mueller: It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today.
Brian Mueller: Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP.
Brian Mueller: Until next time, brothers, stay present.