WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:12.480 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:12.480 --> 00:00:13.240 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:18.520 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:25.560 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:25.560 --> 00:00:33.860 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterward. 00:00:33.860 --> 00:00:35.940 Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. 00:00:35.940 --> 00:00:38.980 This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence. 00:00:38.980 --> 00:00:42.700 We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:48.860 In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. 00:00:48.860 --> 00:00:54.920 If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot 00:00:55.080 --> 00:00:56.840 org slash app. 00:00:56.840 --> 00:01:07.220 Now the Men's rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and 00:01:07.380 --> 00:01:08.660 soul. 00:01:08.660 --> 00:01:12.840 On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:19.000 Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:01:25.600 --> 00:01:27.360 My guest today is Mike Whitman. 00:01:27.360 --> 00:01:28.720 Brother, I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:28.720 --> 00:01:31.840 Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:32.320 Thank you. 00:01:32.320 --> 00:01:32.720 I'm 00:01:32.880 --> 00:01:34.480 glad to be here as well. 00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:37.520 Mike, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:01:37.780 --> 00:01:39.060 So I'm from Tawas 00:01:39.220 --> 00:01:42.100 City, Michigan, which is about halfway up the 00:01:42.420 --> 00:01:46.180 Huron coast of Michigan, small town, tourist 00:01:46.340 --> 00:01:47.540 town. 00:01:47.540 --> 00:01:47.700 I 00:01:47.700 --> 00:01:48.020 spin 00:01:48.260 --> 00:01:49.140 I'm retired. 00:01:49.140 --> 00:01:49.780 I worked in 00:01:50.020 --> 00:01:51.140 youth ministry and 00:01:51.460 --> 00:01:52.660 youth catechetics 00:01:52.900 --> 00:01:54.980 for about nearly 50 years. 00:01:54.980 --> 00:01:55.220 So 00:01:55.460 --> 00:01:55.940 I've been uh 00:01:56.100 --> 00:01:58.340 retired since two thousand and nine. 00:01:58.340 --> 00:01:58.660 So uh 00:01:58.900 --> 00:01:59.220 my uh 00:01:59.460 --> 00:02:00.580 days are what I 00:02:00.900 --> 00:02:04.500 what I want to do is what I want to do so they can be very mixed. 00:02:04.500 --> 00:02:06.500 I like to garden in the summertime. 00:02:06.500 --> 00:02:06.820 So 00:02:07.140 --> 00:02:08.180 I'm kind of 00:02:08.340 --> 00:02:11.300 eager to get out there and get my hands in the dirt. 00:02:11.300 --> 00:02:12.580 I can appreciate that. 00:02:12.580 --> 00:02:15.060 Now, let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. 00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:16.820 The MROP is a unique experience. 00:02:16.820 --> 00:02:20.340 It's not a retreat or a workshop, it's an initiation. 00:02:20.340 --> 00:02:24.240 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. 00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:27.120 Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:29.520 When and where did you make your rites, Mike? 00:02:29.620 --> 00:02:34.980 So I made my rites in two thousand and eight at Pilgrim Park in Illinois. 00:02:35.300 --> 00:02:37.220 And about how many men were there? 00:02:37.340 --> 00:02:38.220 There were eighty uh 00:02:38.380 --> 00:02:39.100 eighty men 00:02:39.340 --> 00:02:39.580 like 00:02:39.820 --> 00:02:40.940 and there were a few from 00:02:41.100 --> 00:02:43.180 a couple from Europe, and I think one 00:02:43.340 --> 00:02:43.500 might 00:02:43.660 --> 00:02:45.740 there might have been one from Australia. 00:02:45.740 --> 00:02:47.660 And who was your weaver? 00:02:47.660 --> 00:02:48.140 Richard Rohr 00:02:48.300 --> 00:02:49.420 was the weaver and uh 00:02:49.980 --> 00:02:51.260 Pica (Stephen Piccha) was the uh 00:02:51.660 --> 00:02:52.060 ritual 00:02:52.300 --> 00:02:52.700 elder. 00:02:52.940 --> 00:02:58.620 Now, when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image or feeling that comes forth for you? 00:02:58.620 --> 00:03:00.420 So when I think back, I really 00:03:00.740 --> 00:03:02.260 think back initially 00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:03.540 a terror 00:03:03.860 --> 00:03:07.060 of just getting ready, getting ready to go. 00:03:07.060 --> 00:03:07.300 Not get 00:03:07.540 --> 00:03:07.940 so much 00:03:08.100 --> 00:03:09.700 not so much getting ready to go, but 00:03:09.940 --> 00:03:10.020 probably 00:03:10.260 --> 00:03:10.420 part 00:03:10.580 --> 00:03:12.900 way through the trip, I thought, what the hell am I doing? 00:03:13.140 --> 00:03:13.459 And 00:03:13.780 --> 00:03:17.060 if I hadn't been four hours into the drive, I would have probably turned around 00:03:17.220 --> 00:03:18.340 and gone back home. 00:03:18.340 --> 00:03:18.660 Yeah. 00:03:18.660 --> 00:03:20.580 So that that's my image 00:03:20.819 --> 00:03:21.620 initially 00:03:21.860 --> 00:03:22.819 starting out 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:24.760 The impact was 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:26.200 unbelievable. 00:03:26.200 --> 00:03:27.720 I mean, really unbelievable. 00:03:27.720 --> 00:03:29.160 I had no, no 00:03:29.480 --> 00:03:30.120 idea 00:03:30.440 --> 00:03:32.120 that it would be that impactful. 00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:34.200 I thought it'd be a nice retreat. 00:03:34.200 --> 00:03:35.880 I'd come home, be high for a couple 00:03:36.760 --> 00:03:39.720 Days or a week, and then it would be over with. 00:03:39.720 --> 00:03:41.000 But that's not what happened. 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:41.879 Let me 00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:43.800 back up just a little bit and say 00:03:43.959 --> 00:03:50.599 from that weekend, is there an experience or an interaction you had with another man? 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:51.379 That you'd be willing to share with us? 00:03:51.379 --> 00:03:56.020 Maybe something that you don't feel you don't hold too closely because it's confidential or personal? 00:03:56.340 --> 00:03:56.739 Yes. 00:03:56.739 --> 00:03:56.819 So 00:03:57.379 --> 00:03:58.500 I was one of the oldest. 00:03:58.660 --> 00:04:00.580 Actually, I was 60 years old. 00:04:01.140 --> 00:04:02.980 And I did my MROP. 00:04:02.980 --> 00:04:07.860 So I was one of the oldest guys in my family group, and probably there, other than Richard. 00:04:07.860 --> 00:04:08.180 Richard's 00:04:08.340 --> 00:04:09.620 two or three years older than me. 00:04:09.940 --> 00:04:10.340 So there were 00:04:10.740 --> 00:04:13.940 two young guys that were in my family group. 00:04:13.940 --> 00:04:14.260 And 00:04:14.260 --> 00:04:15.700 for some reason, they 00:04:16.019 --> 00:04:19.860 I took on this kind of paternal role for them. 00:04:20.180 --> 00:04:20.580 That was 00:04:20.820 --> 00:04:22.580 I think that was softening for me 00:04:22.820 --> 00:04:23.140 because 00:04:23.700 --> 00:04:28.020 I was terrified through the whole experience, which I can talk about a little bit. 00:04:28.400 --> 00:04:30.640 a little bit more, but these two guys 00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:32.480 kind of softened me 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:32.880 'cause 00:04:32.880 --> 00:04:33.200 I 00:04:33.440 --> 00:04:33.680 I 00:04:33.840 --> 00:04:35.440 kind of was mentor and 00:04:35.760 --> 00:04:37.600 dad to them during the uh 00:04:37.760 --> 00:04:39.200 during the rites. So 00:04:39.699 --> 00:04:43.379 Let's talk a little bit about what circumstances led you to participate in the rites. 00:04:43.379 --> 00:04:43.860 What was going on 00:04:44.259 --> 00:04:47.539 in your life at the time that you decided to register? 00:04:47.539 --> 00:04:48.060 That's kind of 00:04:48.380 --> 00:04:49.420 interesting. 00:04:49.420 --> 00:04:51.580 I was pretty arrogant. 00:04:51.580 --> 00:04:54.060 I thought I had my spiritual life down. 00:04:54.060 --> 00:04:55.100 It was down, and 00:04:55.420 --> 00:04:55.660 I 00:04:55.900 --> 00:04:56.860 got it worked out. 00:04:57.520 --> 00:04:58.880 It's fine and dandy. 00:04:58.880 --> 00:04:59.200 And 00:04:59.520 --> 00:04:59.840 I 00:05:00.320 --> 00:05:00.480 had 00:05:00.640 --> 00:05:02.640 started my master's degree 00:05:03.200 --> 00:05:05.200 down in southern Indiana. 00:05:05.520 --> 00:05:10.960 My dad had died the year before, and my mother was diagnosed with terminal leukemia, so 00:05:11.280 --> 00:05:13.600 I transferred from Southern Indiana to 00:05:13.840 --> 00:05:16.080 Loyola and Chicago. 00:05:16.080 --> 00:05:16.740 And I was doing my 00:05:16.979 --> 00:05:17.940 work online. 00:05:17.940 --> 00:05:18.099 So 00:05:18.900 --> 00:05:21.460 I was working at the same time. 00:05:21.460 --> 00:05:24.099 So I couldn't go to campus. 00:05:24.099 --> 00:05:24.320 And I 00:05:24.320 --> 00:05:26.880 Bill McElroy from Illinois. 00:05:26.880 --> 00:05:27.440 He was 00:05:27.760 --> 00:05:31.840 also in the master's program and taking the same class. 00:05:31.840 --> 00:05:35.780 Which was called the spiritual and pastoral care of men. 00:05:35.780 --> 00:05:36.099 So 00:05:36.419 --> 00:05:39.699 Bill, toward the end of the class, we only had a 00:05:41.220 --> 00:05:42.580 virtual friendship because 00:05:42.740 --> 00:05:44.740 I had never met him before. 00:05:44.740 --> 00:05:44.741 To face. 00:05:44.741 --> 00:05:44.840 So 00:05:45.080 --> 00:05:47.560 he, about halfway through the class, he said, 00:05:48.199 --> 00:05:51.400 I think you, I think you're ready for a men's rites of passage. 00:05:51.400 --> 00:05:53.400 And I said, what the hell is that? 00:05:53.400 --> 00:05:54.240 So he said, 00:05:54.960 --> 00:05:55.120 read 00:05:55.599 --> 00:05:56.879 ÓAdam's Return.Ó 00:05:57.039 --> 00:05:58.000 So I read it. 00:05:58.000 --> 00:05:59.919 I had no acquaintance with Richard Rohr. 00:05:59.919 --> 00:06:02.720 I didn't read I hadn't read any of his books. 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:02.860 That wasn't 00:06:03.020 --> 00:06:04.860 would not have been a draw for me. 00:06:04.860 --> 00:06:05.180 So 00:06:05.500 --> 00:06:06.699 I read the book 00:06:06.940 --> 00:06:07.660 and I just 00:06:07.820 --> 00:06:08.860 trusted Bill. 00:06:08.860 --> 00:06:09.020 So 00:06:09.180 --> 00:06:11.259 I signed up, got 00:06:11.419 --> 00:06:12.300 I was accepted 00:06:12.460 --> 00:06:12.780 and 00:06:13.400 --> 00:06:13.720 I 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:16.200 started on the journey. 00:06:16.280 --> 00:06:18.840 Came alone to the rites, or did you come with another man? 00:06:18.840 --> 00:06:20.280 I came alone, drove 00:06:20.440 --> 00:06:22.200 eight hours from Michigan to 00:06:22.440 --> 00:06:25.160 Pilgrim Park by myself. 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:28.379 And when you told your family, friends, your brothers, those around you at 00:06:28.539 --> 00:06:32.139 your life, that you were planning to attend a rites of passage, what was their reaction? 00:06:32.139 --> 00:06:33.580 What did they say? 00:06:33.580 --> 00:06:35.420 My family would have been 00:06:35.660 --> 00:06:39.020 not indifferent, but they would have just have thought, okay, he's doing another 00:06:39.180 --> 00:06:40.940 crazy thing, so we'll we'll just 00:06:41.100 --> 00:06:41.660 we'll just 00:06:41.900 --> 00:06:43.100 accept that. 00:06:43.100 --> 00:06:43.180 So 00:06:43.500 --> 00:06:46.540 they wouldn't have been too surprised that I was doing something 00:06:46.780 --> 00:06:47.820 weird. 00:06:48.180 --> 00:06:48.820 My friends, 00:06:49.380 --> 00:06:52.500 they weren't interested or curious even 00:06:52.660 --> 00:06:52.900 there. 00:06:52.900 --> 00:06:53.940 So there wasn't much. 00:06:54.580 --> 00:06:55.700 There was no resistance. 00:06:55.700 --> 00:06:56.980 It was pretty much. 00:06:57.460 --> 00:06:58.259 Acceptance 00:06:58.419 --> 00:06:59.380 just because of 00:06:59.699 --> 00:07:01.380 who I am and what I do. 00:07:01.380 --> 00:07:02.580 And so there was 00:07:02.900 --> 00:07:04.020 not surprise. 00:07:04.020 --> 00:07:06.180 I don't think there was a surprise that I was 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:06.840 doing 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:08.680 something that they had no idea 00:07:08.840 --> 00:07:11.560 what it was about, mostly because I had no idea. 00:07:11.960 --> 00:07:17.080 Now, as you entered the rites, was there something that you were hoping to be initiated into? 00:07:17.500 --> 00:07:21.020 Absolutely not, because I had no idea what was going to 00:07:21.260 --> 00:07:22.140 happen to me. 00:07:22.140 --> 00:07:22.540 No, 00:07:22.860 --> 00:07:24.860 no, I had no idea 00:07:25.180 --> 00:07:25.660 what was 00:07:25.900 --> 00:07:27.100 what I was getting into. 00:07:27.100 --> 00:07:27.500 I just 00:07:28.180 --> 00:07:28.420 For 00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:28.900 some 00:07:29.140 --> 00:07:33.140 weird reason, I just trusted McElroy, 00:07:34.020 --> 00:07:35.140 which was weird to me 00:07:35.300 --> 00:07:37.460 because I'm pretty, pretty guarded 00:07:37.620 --> 00:07:38.260 and pretty 00:07:39.599 --> 00:07:40.000 I like to 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:40.960 feel safe. 00:07:40.960 --> 00:07:43.280 And so I don't know why I 00:07:43.520 --> 00:07:44.000 did it. 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:44.240 Yeah, 00:07:44.479 --> 00:07:46.960 it's a surprise to me even to this date. 00:07:46.960 --> 00:07:47.120 So 00:07:47.440 --> 00:07:48.479 2008 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:50.319 is when I did mine. 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:50.639 And 00:07:51.380 --> 00:07:55.060 Even now, I'm looking back and going, wow, how the hell? 00:07:55.060 --> 00:07:55.220 What 00:07:55.380 --> 00:07:56.020 what? 00:07:56.020 --> 00:07:56.660 What made 00:07:56.979 --> 00:07:59.220 me say yes to this? 00:07:59.220 --> 00:08:03.139 Well, you already expressed that you felt a lot of terror as you 00:08:03.620 --> 00:08:06.340 approached Pilgrim Park and entered into the rites. 00:08:06.340 --> 00:08:07.699 Let's drill down a little bit on that. 00:08:07.699 --> 00:08:11.060 Tell us a little bit about what that terror was. 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:11.759 Yeah. 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:11.919 So 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:16.159 arriving, I came really early because I didn't know how long it was 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:18.159 going to take me to get there. 00:08:18.159 --> 00:08:18.479 And 00:08:19.039 --> 00:08:20.960 I was already nervous 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:21.759 as how 00:08:22.320 --> 00:08:23.600 Brought into the 00:08:23.840 --> 00:08:26.960 run-down cabins at Pilgrim Park, 00:08:27.280 --> 00:08:29.440 going, What the hell am I doing? 00:08:29.440 --> 00:08:29.600 And 00:08:30.400 --> 00:08:30.720 the 00:08:31.699 --> 00:08:33.700 First evening was pretty safe 00:08:33.940 --> 00:08:36.339 because it was just a talk, nothing else happened. 00:08:36.339 --> 00:08:37.380 But then the next morning 00:08:37.539 --> 00:08:38.099 they did 00:08:38.419 --> 00:08:40.099 the first ritual and like 00:08:40.979 --> 00:08:41.539 It was 00:08:42.659 --> 00:08:46.100 I had built all my walls, I had my doors locked. 00:08:46.100 --> 00:08:46.260 So 00:08:46.420 --> 00:08:47.620 the first ritual 00:08:47.780 --> 00:08:47.940 just 00:08:48.260 --> 00:08:49.700 broke through, was 00:08:49.860 --> 00:08:52.420 breaking through the barriers of my safety. 00:08:52.420 --> 00:08:52.660 And 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:54.240 Making me feel 00:08:54.560 --> 00:08:54.640 could 00:08:54.880 --> 00:08:56.000 I couldn't name that. 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:59.839 I could not have named this at the time, but it made me feel vulnerable. 00:08:59.839 --> 00:09:00.080 I 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:01.760 don't like that. 00:09:01.880 --> 00:09:02.440 And so 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:06.280 as soon as it was finished and I was on my own 00:09:06.760 --> 00:09:09.720 when they would send you out, I would build my wall up again 00:09:09.880 --> 00:09:12.440 'cause I thought, okay, this is not happening again. I 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:12.680 'm s going 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:13.480 to be safe. I 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:13.720 'm going to 00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:15.800 make myself safe. So 00:09:16.400 --> 00:09:16.640 But 00:09:17.920 --> 00:09:18.480 as the week 00:09:19.680 --> 00:09:24.480 four or five days progressed, I knew something important was happening. 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:27.040 I couldn't tell you what, but 00:09:27.280 --> 00:09:29.200 I knew there I sensed there was something 00:09:30.100 --> 00:09:30.900 Significant 00:09:31.140 --> 00:09:34.100 going on, and it was meaningful. 00:09:34.100 --> 00:09:34.500 But I 00:09:34.820 --> 00:09:39.940 if you would have asked me at the time what it was, I would not have been able to explain. 00:09:39.940 --> 00:09:40.080 So I 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:40.880 just kept 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:45.200 each ritual would break through the barrier and I would build it up again 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:45.680 and 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:46.400 next 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:50.080 ritual, you know, break down the barrier. 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:51.500 and I would build it up again. 00:09:51.500 --> 00:09:54.620 But I sensed, like I said, I sensed there was something 00:09:54.940 --> 00:09:55.260 important 00:09:56.060 --> 00:09:57.580 changing, but 00:09:57.900 --> 00:10:00.380 I could not have named it for you. 00:10:00.380 --> 00:10:01.540 You know what I'm hearing, Mike, and 00:10:01.700 --> 00:10:04.180 you can tell me if I'm wrong, but is the word that I'm hearing 00:10:04.420 --> 00:10:06.180 or maybe that to describe sort of 00:10:06.420 --> 00:10:07.140 your fear 00:10:07.380 --> 00:10:08.740 vulnerability, a fear of 00:10:09.300 --> 00:10:11.860 being vulnerable with these other men? 00:10:11.860 --> 00:10:12.120 Yeah, 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:12.760 because 00:10:13.400 --> 00:10:13.720 my 00:10:14.680 --> 00:10:14.840 my 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:17.160 raising up as a male would be 00:10:17.400 --> 00:10:17.560 other 00:10:17.720 --> 00:10:20.840 men are dangerous, so you need to be careful with them. 00:10:21.160 --> 00:10:21.480 So 00:10:21.640 --> 00:10:24.200 they're they're competitors. 00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:24.440 So 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:25.640 that would be a part of 00:10:25.880 --> 00:10:27.400 in a way to be all unconscious. 00:10:27.400 --> 00:10:27.560 There would 00:10:27.880 --> 00:10:29.640 be no awareness of that. 00:10:29.640 --> 00:10:29.800 But 00:10:30.040 --> 00:10:31.320 like I said, those two guys 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:32.360 that kind of 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:33.920 I took under my wing, 00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:35.360 they were softening me 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:35.920 because 00:10:36.400 --> 00:10:40.640 they invited the father, that generative energy. 00:10:40.640 --> 00:10:40.720 So 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:42.640 that was softening me too. 00:10:42.640 --> 00:10:43.840 I think that was an important thing 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:44.240 that 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:46.640 Side thing that was happening that would 00:10:46.800 --> 00:10:47.120 made me 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:48.640 more open, I think. 00:10:48.640 --> 00:10:49.760 Now, think back to the 00:10:49.920 --> 00:10:50.160 the day 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:51.200 the rites ended, 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:53.040 closing ritual. 00:10:53.040 --> 00:10:54.040 It's time for you to go. 00:10:54.040 --> 00:10:55.319 You're able to get in the car. 00:10:55.319 --> 00:10:57.880 You've got a long drive back to Tawas City. 00:10:57.880 --> 00:10:58.120 And 00:10:58.279 --> 00:10:59.399 how were you feeling? 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:01.240 You know, what was going on? 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:02.399 I was feeling 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:03.360 pretty 00:11:03.920 --> 00:11:07.839 I was exhausted physically, but I was feeling 00:11:08.800 --> 00:11:09.040 something 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:12.640 miraculous was happening to me. 00:11:12.640 --> 00:11:14.940 It was hard saying goodbye to those guys, the two guys that 00:11:15.180 --> 00:11:15.340 I 00:11:15.820 --> 00:11:16.140 had 00:11:16.300 --> 00:11:16.460 uh 00:11:16.620 --> 00:11:17.820 the attachment to. 00:11:17.820 --> 00:11:18.540 We kind of 00:11:18.860 --> 00:11:18.940 uh 00:11:19.100 --> 00:11:25.020 they drove a bus back to the airport, you know, spent as much time as we could until they left. 00:11:25.100 --> 00:11:26.540 So I was feeling 00:11:27.180 --> 00:11:28.060 strange 00:11:28.620 --> 00:11:28.940 because 00:11:29.900 --> 00:11:30.220 I 00:11:31.180 --> 00:11:35.580 couldn't name what was happening to me, but it 00:11:35.900 --> 00:11:36.220 made 00:11:36.540 --> 00:11:37.180 me feel 00:11:38.140 --> 00:11:39.100 new. 00:11:39.520 --> 00:11:41.200 It made me feel different. 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:42.400 It made me feel 00:11:43.040 --> 00:11:44.480 richer. 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:49.040 But again, if you had asked me at that time, I would have had no words to explain. 00:11:49.520 --> 00:11:51.760 I was up, but not 00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:54.480 No idea why 00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:56.240 that was. 00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:56.320 Because 00:11:56.560 --> 00:11:58.320 like I said before, I already 00:11:58.480 --> 00:11:59.520 I thought I had 00:11:59.760 --> 00:12:00.000 thought 00:12:00.160 --> 00:12:02.080 I had I got this worked out. 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:05.200 You know, me and God are fine, and our journey is 00:12:05.980 --> 00:12:06.140 God 00:12:06.300 --> 00:12:07.420 is okay with it. 00:12:07.420 --> 00:12:09.420 So we're just going to keep on the 00:12:10.060 --> 00:12:10.220 the 00:12:10.380 --> 00:12:11.180 the way we've been 00:12:11.500 --> 00:12:12.300 the way we've been 00:12:12.540 --> 00:12:15.180 walking, we're going to keep walking that way. 00:12:15.180 --> 00:12:15.820 But the uh 00:12:15.980 --> 00:12:17.820 the rites showed me 00:12:18.380 --> 00:12:20.220 I was pretty stuck. 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:23.040 And I was pretty blind in a lot of ways. 00:12:23.040 --> 00:12:26.800 And I was very, very, very comfortable with my masks 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:27.440 that I had 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:31.200 created for myself and for other people to see me through. 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:31.520 So 00:12:32.100 --> 00:12:34.900 And this took months before I could 00:12:35.140 --> 00:12:36.820 start finding names for things. 00:12:36.820 --> 00:12:38.020 And one of them was 00:12:38.340 --> 00:12:40.340 the invitation to vulnerability. 00:12:40.340 --> 00:12:40.980 That was the 00:12:41.140 --> 00:12:42.580 that was the the largest 00:12:42.740 --> 00:12:45.460 or the greatest invitation that the rites 00:12:45.700 --> 00:12:47.140 Offered me was this 00:12:48.100 --> 00:12:48.820 sense of 00:12:48.980 --> 00:12:51.860 you need to be more comfortable with vulnerability. 00:12:51.860 --> 00:12:53.380 You need to be more open. 00:12:53.380 --> 00:12:59.060 And it took months and months and months to open that package and to be comfortable with it. 00:12:59.060 --> 00:13:01.020 Thank you so much for sharing that. 00:13:01.020 --> 00:13:06.540 Let me ask you so, there's been a significant amount of time has passed since your rites, almost 20 years now. 00:13:06.560 --> 00:13:07.040 So there's 00:13:07.920 --> 00:13:10.320 a long period for you to have 00:13:10.640 --> 00:13:12.000 processed that experience. 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:18.160 And of course, I know you because of your deep involvement and commitment to the aluminum community, both in your region and 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:19.840 even nationally. 00:13:19.940 --> 00:13:26.580 So I want to ask you, what has changed in your life since making the rites, thinking practically, relationally, even spiritually? 00:13:27.220 --> 00:13:27.380 So 00:13:27.700 --> 00:13:29.140 on a relational level, 00:13:29.300 --> 00:13:32.180 again, I would return to vulnerability. 00:13:32.180 --> 00:13:32.680 I have been 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:34.440 in the chapter. 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:36.840 I've been with that chapter since it began 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:38.600 and been with the evolution 00:13:38.760 --> 00:13:40.200 and my evolution 00:13:40.520 --> 00:13:43.160 along with the evolution of the chapter. 00:13:43.920 --> 00:13:44.480 I think 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:46.560 it took so long. 00:13:46.560 --> 00:13:48.560 We would have retreats where 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:53.199 you would have to we'd be in the sharing groups and you would have to talk about 00:13:53.680 --> 00:13:54.000 prompt 00:13:54.160 --> 00:13:56.000 but respond to the prompt questions 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:56.480 and 00:13:57.120 --> 00:13:59.920 I would have to unlock so many doors. 00:13:59.920 --> 00:14:05.760 I would have to tear down so many walls to try to get to a place where I could respond. 00:14:05.760 --> 00:14:07.100 Honestly, 00:14:07.420 --> 00:14:13.100 concretely, and from the heart, not from the head, it would take so, so 00:14:13.339 --> 00:14:13.980 long. 00:14:13.980 --> 00:14:15.660 And I would be hoping 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:16.440 That 00:14:16.680 --> 00:14:19.240 everyone would share and there'd be no time left. 00:14:19.480 --> 00:14:22.920 That is exactly what I would try to manage to happen. 00:14:22.920 --> 00:14:23.240 And 00:14:23.880 --> 00:14:24.040 so 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:24.279 then 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:27.480 the last five years, there's been a lot more comfortableness 00:14:27.800 --> 00:14:28.120 with 00:14:28.520 --> 00:14:29.960 It doesn't take as long 00:14:30.280 --> 00:14:30.600 to 00:14:30.920 --> 00:14:33.720 get to that point where I can be honest 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:35.400 with myself and with uh 00:14:35.560 --> 00:14:36.520 the men in the 00:14:37.220 --> 00:14:38.420 In the sharing group. 00:14:38.420 --> 00:14:42.260 So I think that's the biggest gift that the MROP gave me 00:14:42.420 --> 00:14:42.580 was 00:14:43.540 --> 00:14:48.260 recognizing the masks that I've created for myself and I've created for 00:14:48.420 --> 00:14:50.980 I've given you to look at me through. 00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:54.720 to see them as masks and not as who I am. 00:14:54.959 --> 00:14:56.320 I think that's 00:14:56.640 --> 00:14:57.440 one of the 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:00.320 greatest gifts, as I said, 00:15:00.640 --> 00:15:00.880 that 00:15:01.040 --> 00:15:03.279 the MROP gave me. 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:07.540 Mike, I believe you come from a very large family, that you're the oldest of many siblings. 00:15:07.540 --> 00:15:08.100 And I 00:15:08.260 --> 00:15:08.740 sense that 00:15:09.060 --> 00:15:10.820 you participate in a community of men. 00:15:11.160 --> 00:15:11.320 you're 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:12.040 very active. 00:15:12.040 --> 00:15:15.640 And so I want to ask those of closest to you that know you've been through this rites 00:15:15.880 --> 00:15:16.440 experience and 00:15:16.680 --> 00:15:19.640 your involvement in Illuman, what would they say? 00:15:19.640 --> 00:15:21.640 What's changed in Mike? 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:25.720 How would they perceive the changes in Mike over these last twenty years or so? 00:15:25.800 --> 00:15:27.560 Well, I actually asked one of my sisters. 00:15:27.560 --> 00:15:29.480 I have five sisters and four brothers. 00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:31.240 So I asked one of my sisters who's 00:15:31.880 --> 00:15:33.160 Eight on the Enneagram. 00:15:33.160 --> 00:15:33.240 So 00:15:33.400 --> 00:15:35.000 she's pretty honest. 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:37.000 She's pretty in your face. 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:39.400 I said, Kathy, have you 00:15:39.640 --> 00:15:40.920 noticed any changes? 00:15:40.920 --> 00:15:43.640 And she said, Yeah, you're a lot less negative. 00:15:43.640 --> 00:15:44.600 Well, that's good. 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:45.240 Yeah. 00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:45.960 Yeah. 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:46.200 So 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:51.120 Yeah, I think if you'd ask the guys in my chapter, they would 00:15:51.280 --> 00:15:51.840 say that 00:15:52.160 --> 00:15:52.800 I have 00:15:53.040 --> 00:15:54.720 softened. 00:15:54.880 --> 00:15:55.840 And I think that 00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:56.640 's 00:15:56.960 --> 00:15:59.520 that's another one of the gifts that the 00:15:59.760 --> 00:16:00.240 rites 00:16:00.400 --> 00:16:01.360 and Illuman 00:16:01.680 --> 00:16:02.880 has provided and the guys 00:16:03.040 --> 00:16:04.960 in my chapter, because they have been so 00:16:05.880 --> 00:16:07.560 So patient and 00:16:07.800 --> 00:16:10.920 gently, gently challenging with me. 00:16:10.920 --> 00:16:11.160 So 00:16:11.800 --> 00:16:12.280 I really 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:17.240 I have written, and I've said before, I don't know where I'd be if I hadn't had that experience. 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:17.320 It 00:16:17.560 --> 00:16:17.880 really 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:20.280 That's how changing it was for me. 00:16:20.280 --> 00:16:20.520 And 00:16:20.680 --> 00:16:23.400 it continues to be unpacked now. 00:16:23.400 --> 00:16:28.120 Even now, I'm still unpacking my experience. 00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:29.019 Thank you so much for sharing that. 00:16:29.019 --> 00:16:37.339 How is your understanding of masculinity, initiation, and even the male purpose in life changed over these years? 00:16:37.339 --> 00:16:37.460 So 00:16:37.780 --> 00:16:38.420 initiation 00:16:38.580 --> 00:16:39.140 ritual, 00:16:39.380 --> 00:16:40.260 especially rituals 00:16:40.500 --> 00:16:41.940 become very, very meaningful 00:16:42.180 --> 00:16:42.420 and 00:16:42.580 --> 00:16:44.500 for almost from the beginning. 00:16:44.820 --> 00:16:45.540 I've just 00:16:45.860 --> 00:16:46.260 ended 00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:48.020 that role in the chapter. 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:53.600 I have been the ritual elder, so ritual has been very, very important. 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:53.840 So 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:54.560 we have 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:57.040 in our chapter, we've created a 00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:01.840 rite of passage for boys and dads or mentors. 00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:01.960 So 00:17:01.960 --> 00:17:05.880 watching that and how meaningful it is to the men and the boys, 00:17:06.199 --> 00:17:08.439 especially the dads or the mentor, the transform 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:11.880 there's a big transformation that takes place. 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:12.020 The 00:17:12.500 --> 00:17:18.020 masculinity, the definition for that is so flexible for me now. 00:17:18.020 --> 00:17:23.220 It's not as defined as it was before, and it was so hard to achieve the 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:29.600 the goal that had been given to me for defining what manhood was about. 00:17:29.600 --> 00:17:30.080 It was 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:33.840 a goal that was painful, hard, and 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:35.440 only encouraged 00:17:35.980 --> 00:17:38.540 Encouraging me to be more and more 00:17:39.500 --> 00:17:41.580 protective of myself, 00:17:41.980 --> 00:17:45.100 more guarded, more hidden. 00:17:45.280 --> 00:17:45.600 So 00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:46.480 yeah, 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:47.040 my 00:17:47.360 --> 00:17:50.320 understanding of masculinity and maleness 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:51.280 has been 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:53.520 transformed in 00:17:53.760 --> 00:17:55.520 significant ways. 00:17:55.520 --> 00:17:57.680 I think in a healthier way. 00:17:57.680 --> 00:17:58.560 So I'd say 00:17:59.520 --> 00:18:00.560 I see it up to each 00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:01.520 man to 00:18:01.760 --> 00:18:02.720 define how 00:18:03.040 --> 00:18:03.360 he 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:06.480 is going to try to live out masculinity 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:09.040 and his maleness. 00:18:09.040 --> 00:18:10.500 Not so well defined as 00:18:10.820 --> 00:18:12.740 it was when I was a kid. 00:18:12.980 --> 00:18:13.460 I know 00:18:14.020 --> 00:18:18.340 my dad and I crossed swords all the time because he had some certain expectations 00:18:18.580 --> 00:18:21.380 and I would not meet them partly on purpose. 00:18:22.120 --> 00:18:26.200 Those expectations came out of his own way that he was trained, 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:28.200 and the archetype that he was 00:18:28.520 --> 00:18:30.920 a dark archetype that he was trained in as 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:33.960 being a man and being masculine. 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:34.399 Absolutely. 00:18:34.399 --> 00:18:36.880 In fact, I was hearing so much good stuff 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:37.279 that 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:40.399 I was going to ask you a little bit more about your spirituality, but let me put a 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:42.480 finer point on it. 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:45.880 you know, as somebody who's dedicated his life to his own spiritual formation 00:18:46.040 --> 00:18:46.840 and then through the 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:53.000 pastoring of youth, their spiritual formation as well, you know, how has this experience 00:18:53.419 --> 00:18:56.220 energized your paternal energies and 00:18:56.460 --> 00:18:58.460 changed your approach, 00:18:58.940 --> 00:18:59.260 both 00:18:59.419 --> 00:18:59.900 especially 00:19:00.380 --> 00:19:01.100 I guess I'm curious 00:19:01.580 --> 00:19:01.740 in 00:19:01.980 --> 00:19:06.220 how you mentor and pastor young people and young men. 00:19:06.220 --> 00:19:07.900 when I finished the MROP, I I 00:19:08.060 --> 00:19:11.020 retired in two thousand and nine. 00:19:11.020 --> 00:19:15.260 So when I finished the MROP, the idea of initiation was 00:19:15.580 --> 00:19:15.900 more 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:24.320 I had been engaged in creating rituals for myself, trying to find my own way to manhood, without knowing I was doing it. 00:19:24.320 --> 00:19:26.960 I'm looking back now and seeing it. 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:31.760 And I was talking to my baby brother, and he's 22 years younger than me. 00:19:31.760 --> 00:19:34.000 So I was a second dad to him 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:34.800 in a 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:35.280 really, 00:19:35.840 --> 00:19:37.280 really, in a serious way. 00:19:37.280 --> 00:19:37.440 So 00:19:37.600 --> 00:19:37.920 he 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:44.679 I was talking to him about my rites, and he he said to me, Mike, do you know you did that for us? 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.799 meeting him and my nephews. 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:48.880 And I said, how? 00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:50.080 And so he would talk 00:19:50.320 --> 00:19:51.120 he would talk to me 00:19:51.360 --> 00:19:53.360 how I had created these 00:19:53.679 --> 00:19:54.720 kind of liminal 00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:57.120 spaces, passageways. 00:19:57.120 --> 00:19:58.900 That I was not aware of. 00:19:59.140 --> 00:20:02.020 I had some awareness I was doing it on purpose, or 00:20:02.260 --> 00:20:03.940 that was my intention. 00:20:03.940 --> 00:20:06.260 After the rites of initiation, then 00:20:06.580 --> 00:20:10.580 I became very intentional when I was mentoring a kid. 00:20:10.620 --> 00:20:10.940 I 00:20:11.180 --> 00:20:14.620 became very intentional about noticing the liminal spaces 00:20:14.780 --> 00:20:15.100 he 00:20:15.340 --> 00:20:18.300 or she might be in, and I would. 00:20:19.220 --> 00:20:22.020 How to have them identify them 00:20:22.340 --> 00:20:23.300 and to say 00:20:23.460 --> 00:20:25.300 yes to passing through them. 00:20:25.300 --> 00:20:25.540 So 00:20:26.100 --> 00:20:29.060 I think I became more intentional. 00:20:29.060 --> 00:20:30.540 One of the things that has been 00:20:31.260 --> 00:20:33.820 a cornerstone of yours and my relationship, and 00:20:33.980 --> 00:20:35.500 I'm not sure exactly where we met, Mike. 00:20:35.500 --> 00:20:40.140 It might have been out at Soularize, which used to take place at Tamaya, New Mexico. 00:20:40.140 --> 00:20:40.360 But 00:20:40.360 --> 00:20:41.160 very early on, 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:45.560 you identify as a Type One on the Enneagram, and I do as well. 00:20:45.560 --> 00:20:45.880 And 00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:46.520 I 00:20:46.760 --> 00:20:52.840 firmly believe from my own exploration of the Enneagram and what I've learned is that some of our best teachers 00:20:52.919 --> 00:20:53.000 are 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:56.039 the men and women that are the same type as we are. 00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:57.720 It's one of the reasons that I was 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:03.160 I think I've been very attracted to Richard Rohr and his work, and maybe you could say the same. 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:04.120 But there's going to be some people 00:21:04.280 --> 00:21:04.840 listening to that are 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:08.919 not as familiar with the Enneagram, although it's really popular within Illuman 00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:12.840 as a means for further development and growth. 00:21:12.840 --> 00:21:15.400 First, let me ask you, can you tell our listeners 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:15.800 What 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:17.640 the Type One on the Enneagram 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:20.040 what's the titles or the names for that and 00:21:20.280 --> 00:21:22.520 what that is, being a Type One? 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:25.240 For me, the title that I was 00:21:25.560 --> 00:21:25.880 first 00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:29.160 exposed to was The Perfectionist. 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:29.360 which 00:21:29.600 --> 00:21:31.120 fit me so well 00:21:31.360 --> 00:21:32.320 because it was 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:35.200 being the oldest child of ten 00:21:35.520 --> 00:21:38.000 and parents telling you you have to be their model 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:38.960 and it just 00:21:39.700 --> 00:21:40.900 spoke to my 00:21:41.220 --> 00:21:42.900 personality type, the the 00:21:43.220 --> 00:21:43.380 one 00:21:43.540 --> 00:21:44.340 the perfectionist 00:21:44.500 --> 00:21:45.700 who just spoke to that. 00:21:45.700 --> 00:21:45.860 So 00:21:46.100 --> 00:21:47.140 part of the problem 00:21:47.300 --> 00:21:51.940 though, which the Enneagram has helped me to recognize, and it really has softened me 00:21:52.180 --> 00:21:52.500 because 00:21:53.280 --> 00:21:56.400 The Enneagram asks you to accept yourself the way you are. 00:21:57.280 --> 00:22:06.240 Accept those broken, those sharp edges, the masks that you create, just to accept those things, not complacently. 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:06.380 But let them 00:22:06.540 --> 00:22:06.780 tell you 00:22:07.020 --> 00:22:08.780 let them tell you the story 00:22:09.100 --> 00:22:15.740 of how they came into existence, why they came into existence, why you need them. 00:22:15.740 --> 00:22:19.679 and how you can use them as a tool instead of them using you, 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:22.080 instead of them 00:22:22.399 --> 00:22:22.720 being 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:24.000 on automatic 00:22:24.159 --> 00:22:26.399 and inviting you to only be reactionary 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:28.799 rather than that you're intentional about 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:32.440 Using your personality type as a tool. 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:32.680 So 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:40.840 I use, I'm a spiritual director, so I use that with my directees, and I always say to them, you are not your personality. 00:22:40.840 --> 00:22:41.059 There is 00:22:41.299 --> 00:22:45.539 more mystery there than that personality identification. 00:22:45.539 --> 00:22:51.299 And that's the thing you need to open yourself up to: that deeper mystery of who you are. 00:22:51.299 --> 00:22:54.440 Yeah, I experience you as a wonderfully integrated One. 00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:54.679 And 00:22:54.919 --> 00:22:57.559 you mentioned the title Perfectionist, another one that people will hear 00:22:57.720 --> 00:22:59.240 often is Reformer. 00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:01.640 And unhealthy Ones are known for being maybe 00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:03.400 too critical. 00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:05.980 Although I I think a lot of people don't understand that 00:23:06.299 --> 00:23:07.660 the worst criticism 00:23:07.820 --> 00:23:09.580 One's often reserved for themselves. 00:23:09.580 --> 00:23:11.500 It's that voice in their head. 00:23:11.500 --> 00:23:15.020 And there's some wounding, there's some deep wounding within the One that 00:23:15.179 --> 00:23:17.500 a fear of not being good enough. 00:23:17.740 --> 00:23:17.980 And 00:23:18.220 --> 00:23:22.460 once they're more integrated in their better perspectives, they're able to kind of see the world more 00:23:22.780 --> 00:23:26.460 holistically as sort of having a divine perfection, and they're 00:23:26.620 --> 00:23:27.100 able to 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:31.440 do that for themselves and actually invite other people into that space of serenity and 00:23:31.760 --> 00:23:32.799 peace. 00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:32.960 So 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:41.039 I don't know if you were aware of your type when you did your men's rites of passage, but how has the rites of passage helped with your 00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:44.559 understanding and integration of the of the Enneagram? 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:45.679 I think it's 00:23:45.919 --> 00:23:47.519 the intentionality of 00:23:48.159 --> 00:23:48.320 maybe 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:50.480 I'll use a different word. 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:50.560 I 00:23:50.800 --> 00:23:59.360 have come to a place where I've been asking God for radical inner honesty, which I'm like, what the hell are you doing? 00:24:00.299 --> 00:24:02.940 I'll be 79 on May 7th. 00:24:02.940 --> 00:24:04.780 So I'm at a place where 00:24:05.340 --> 00:24:07.179 I think it's common for 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:09.280 people 00:24:09.600 --> 00:24:11.360 this age, or hopefully 00:24:11.600 --> 00:24:14.480 anyway, to begin to reflect, do 00:24:14.800 --> 00:24:16.560 life reflection, looking 00:24:16.800 --> 00:24:17.840 looking at back 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:19.120 at one's life 00:24:19.280 --> 00:24:19.600 and 00:24:20.540 --> 00:24:20.860 So 00:24:21.500 --> 00:24:22.460 I've been able 00:24:22.940 --> 00:24:25.820 I'm not sure if I'm answering your question, but I've been able to 00:24:26.700 --> 00:24:33.020 step into a place where I realize, wow, you are so, so dishonest there. 00:24:33.419 --> 00:24:33.500 or 00:24:33.899 --> 00:24:34.940 into a relation 00:24:35.260 --> 00:24:36.940 relationship that I may have 00:24:37.500 --> 00:24:38.860 engaged and 00:24:39.179 --> 00:24:40.700 thought, wow, this is I'm doing 00:24:41.019 --> 00:24:42.139 really good work here. 00:24:42.139 --> 00:24:43.260 Then I realize 00:24:43.780 --> 00:24:47.060 you had a lot of other needs that you're trying to have met 00:24:47.220 --> 00:24:48.260 to that person. 00:24:48.260 --> 00:24:48.820 And so 00:24:49.140 --> 00:24:52.100 I've been able to stay inside of that pain 00:24:52.260 --> 00:24:55.140 of recognizing that dishonesty. 00:24:55.140 --> 00:24:55.400 And 00:24:55.720 --> 00:24:58.120 not try to escape into a mask 00:24:58.360 --> 00:24:58.679 where 00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:03.880 I'm the good boy, the image of being the good boy. 00:25:04.320 --> 00:25:06.240 So I think that's that one thing that 00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:11.360 that's been a gift to the Enneagram because of that softening that it's done 00:25:11.679 --> 00:25:12.240 for me 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:12.720 of 00:25:13.220 --> 00:25:14.820 accepting myself the way I am 00:25:14.980 --> 00:25:21.860 and other people, accepting other people the way they are, and life as it is in the moment I'm in, and 00:25:22.100 --> 00:25:26.020 being open to the fact that tomorrow is going to be different. 00:25:26.020 --> 00:25:26.659 Or the next 00:25:26.820 --> 00:25:29.539 moment might be different, but just to try 00:25:29.860 --> 00:25:31.380 to stay present 00:25:31.860 --> 00:25:34.340 in the moment that I'm in. 00:25:34.340 --> 00:25:40.320 Yeah, so my spirituality, going back to that, my spirituality has changed a great deal. 00:25:40.320 --> 00:25:42.400 The kind of spirituality I engage 00:25:42.560 --> 00:25:43.520 I'm engaged in 00:25:43.760 --> 00:25:45.840 and have been for most of my life is 00:25:46.620 --> 00:25:48.060 Spousal spirituality. 00:25:48.060 --> 00:25:50.220 So it's really a heart spirituality. 00:25:50.460 --> 00:25:57.100 Most of the time, in the beginning, I was in my head though, that that's the part that the MROP and Illuman has helped with 00:25:57.340 --> 00:25:57.580 of 00:25:57.900 --> 00:25:59.660 recognizing that 00:26:00.120 --> 00:26:00.280 It 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:01.160 might be spiritual 00:26:02.360 --> 00:26:05.560 spousal spirituality, but you've been in your head 00:26:05.800 --> 00:26:08.360 trying to live it in your head and not in your heart. 00:26:09.019 --> 00:26:13.019 I think that's what the MROP and Illuman has dropped me down 00:26:13.340 --> 00:26:13.580 into 00:26:13.740 --> 00:26:14.539 my heart. 00:26:14.539 --> 00:26:14.860 And 00:26:15.019 --> 00:26:16.700 the Enneagram has done that 00:26:16.860 --> 00:26:20.539 too, because, like I said, the softening part. 00:26:20.539 --> 00:26:20.660 where 00:26:20.660 --> 00:26:22.100 it softens you 00:26:22.419 --> 00:26:24.100 and doesn't leave you so hard. 00:26:24.100 --> 00:26:24.580 As a One 00:26:24.740 --> 00:26:24.820 so 00:26:24.980 --> 00:26:28.900 hard, where you're in your head criticizing yourself constantly. 00:26:28.900 --> 00:26:32.260 Yeah, that's very resonant for me, that hard edge. 00:26:32.260 --> 00:26:32.640 And 00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:35.919 again, the hardest edge at you is for myself, reserve for myself. 00:26:35.919 --> 00:26:36.480 I used to think 00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:38.640 these people think I'm being hard on them. 00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:40.880 They should be inside my head. 00:26:41.340 --> 00:26:42.220 I can tell there's 00:26:42.539 --> 00:26:44.620 a lot of transformation that's gone on with you. 00:26:44.620 --> 00:26:45.660 This is an audio-only 00:26:45.980 --> 00:26:49.980 podcast, but I'm looking at the sign that's hanging behind you on the wall. 00:26:49.980 --> 00:26:52.620 It says, ÒMy family tree is full of nuts.Ó 00:26:52.620 --> 00:26:52.940 And 00:26:52.940 --> 00:26:54.220 that made me chuckle. 00:26:54.220 --> 00:26:57.100 And I think that's testament to you as 00:26:57.580 --> 00:26:58.860 a Type One and Enneagram 00:26:59.020 --> 00:27:00.540 being able to just kind of accept 00:27:00.740 --> 00:27:01.940 happily, the 00:27:02.180 --> 00:27:04.180 situation of your family members and just 00:27:04.420 --> 00:27:06.020 sort of the crazy making things that 00:27:06.180 --> 00:27:07.860 are just part of life. 00:27:07.860 --> 00:27:10.740 Let me ask you one more question, Mike. 00:27:10.740 --> 00:27:19.360 Since we've been talking Enneagram, can you make the case for someone who knows their Enneagram type number and says, yeah, I think I'm a Type One on the Enneagram, 00:27:19.520 --> 00:27:23.360 make a case for them participating in the men's rites of a passage and what that 00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:25.120 might do for them? 00:27:25.300 --> 00:27:26.260 So I think if 00:27:26.820 --> 00:27:29.460 if you're a Type One, I would 00:27:29.700 --> 00:27:30.580 say to you 00:27:30.820 --> 00:27:31.140 , 00:27:31.460 --> 00:27:33.220 go to the rites of passage 00:27:33.540 --> 00:27:35.780 because it's going to invite you 00:27:36.500 --> 00:27:39.780 Into a place of generativity, 00:27:40.100 --> 00:27:40.340 into 00:27:40.660 --> 00:27:41.299 a place 00:27:41.620 --> 00:27:42.500 where you are 00:27:42.820 --> 00:27:46.660 going to love yourself and you're going to look out and you're going to see 00:27:47.620 --> 00:27:47.780 out 00:27:47.940 --> 00:27:54.100 there, miracles going on around you, ordinary miracles just happening everywhere. 00:27:54.100 --> 00:27:56.660 And it will put you in a place where you will 00:27:57.300 --> 00:27:59.940 not want to escape from ever again. 00:27:59.940 --> 00:28:00.100 It 00:28:00.340 --> 00:28:00.500 will 00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:01.300 make you 00:28:01.900 --> 00:28:02.860 Want to be with 00:28:03.420 --> 00:28:03.980 yourself. 00:28:03.980 --> 00:28:04.300 I want 00:28:04.460 --> 00:28:04.940 you to 00:28:05.580 --> 00:28:11.100 be with all the other imperfect people in the world that you're going to encounter. 00:28:11.100 --> 00:28:13.940 And the realization that our perfection is in our imperfection. 00:28:13.940 --> 00:28:18.580 That's the piece that I really appreciated from the Enneagram and the MROP. 00:28:19.320 --> 00:28:19.400 my 00:28:19.560 --> 00:28:20.760 life with Illuman 00:28:21.320 --> 00:28:23.640 and how I've been trying to incorporate that, 00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:26.120 integrate that into myself. 00:28:26.120 --> 00:28:26.440 That 00:28:27.080 --> 00:28:28.280 acceptance of 00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:29.400 imperfection, 00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:31.480 not complacently, but 00:28:31.800 --> 00:28:33.400 accepting it. 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:34.680 It's a part of life 00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:37.560 and transformation is just around the corner. 00:28:37.560 --> 00:28:37.720 And 00:28:39.080 --> 00:28:43.400 I think that's the liminal space that the MROP offers. 00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:44.840 It offers this huge 00:28:45.600 --> 00:28:46.159 five-day 00:28:46.320 --> 00:28:47.760 liminal space, and 00:28:48.399 --> 00:28:51.440 there is a communal experience of that liminal space 00:28:51.679 --> 00:28:54.320 and a unique experience of that liminal space 00:28:54.559 --> 00:28:56.559 unique to the individual person. 00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:56.799 So 00:28:57.040 --> 00:28:57.440 And when I 00:28:57.760 --> 00:29:03.840 look back in my MROP, I see so many doorways that open, passageways and liminal moments 00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:05.440 that I said yes to. 00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:06.480 And I'm like 00:29:06.800 --> 00:29:10.080 I'm surprised that I said yes to Bill McElroy's invitation. 00:29:10.919 --> 00:29:14.440 surprised I took those passageways, no matter how terrified I was. 00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:15.960 I I walked through them. 00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:18.200 Yeah, I think that's the courage that you 00:29:18.600 --> 00:29:20.200 experience. 00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:20.899 Thank you so much. 00:29:20.899 --> 00:29:21.779 That's wonderful. 00:29:21.779 --> 00:29:23.700 And I just want to acknowledge, too, you obviously 00:29:24.019 --> 00:29:25.940 have a Two-wing on the Enneagram. 00:29:25.940 --> 00:29:27.460 I always feel your big heart. 00:29:27.460 --> 00:29:28.659 I really appreciate that. 00:29:28.659 --> 00:29:30.500 You have a lot of love for people and 00:29:30.740 --> 00:29:32.019 for the men in this work. 00:29:32.019 --> 00:29:32.260 And 00:29:32.360 --> 00:29:40.440 And so thank you for your time today, for sharing your honesty, your courage, sharing about your rites of passage experience, and thank you too for being such a big part of the Illuman 00:29:40.600 --> 00:29:41.799 community. 00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:42.140 Thank you, Brian. 00:29:42.700 --> 00:29:46.539 I'm glad that we bumped into each other wherever that was. 00:29:46.539 --> 00:29:46.780 And 00:29:47.020 --> 00:29:48.539 I'm so glad I bumped into 00:29:48.860 --> 00:29:50.220 Bill McElroy. 00:29:50.220 --> 00:29:52.940 I really don't know what life would have been like. 00:29:52.940 --> 00:29:53.100 I hear you. 00:29:53.100 --> 00:29:55.180 I love you, brother, and I look forward to seeing you 00:29:55.340 --> 00:29:55.740 soon. 00:29:55.740 --> 00:29:56.380 Thank you. 00:29:56.700 --> 00:29:57.580 For those listening 00:29:57.740 --> 00:29:59.740 who are now feeling a tug in their own soul 00:29:59.900 --> 00:30:01.340 and are curious to learn more 00:30:01.460 --> 00:30:04.020 Allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. 00:30:04.020 --> 00:30:12.180 The men's rites of passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six. 00:30:12.180 --> 00:30:13.620 While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action 00:30:13.780 --> 00:30:20.100 and Contemplation, since twenty twelve Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over 00:30:20.260 --> 00:30:21.540 the world. 00:30:21.540 --> 00:30:25.899 To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading ÒAdam's ReturnÓ 00:30:26.059 --> 00:30:27.179 by Richard Rohr. 00:30:27.179 --> 00:30:28.059 If you are ready to make your 00:30:28.220 --> 00:30:33.820 rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six. 00:30:33.820 --> 00:30:35.140 The first is in Northern California, May 00:30:35.300 --> 00:30:36.580 thirteenth through the seventeenth 00:30:36.820 --> 00:30:38.980 the second in the United Kingdom, July twenty second 00:30:39.140 --> 00:30:43.060 through the twenty sixth, and in Illinois, August twelfth through the sixteenth 00:30:43.300 --> 00:30:48.020 there's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth. 00:30:48.020 --> 00:30:54.340 And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is an MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth. 00:30:54.340 --> 00:30:57.860 You can find details and registration information at Illuman dot 00:30:58.020 --> 00:30:58.820 org slash 00:30:58.980 --> 00:31:00.340 mrop. 00:31:00.340 --> 00:31:00.460 or 00:31:00.460 --> 00:31:02.940 Illuman dot org slash events. 00:31:02.940 --> 00:31:06.220 Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national 00:31:06.380 --> 00:31:10.940 gathering of Illuman, taking place November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico. 00:31:10.940 --> 00:31:14.620 You can find more at Illuman dot org slash awaken. 00:31:14.820 --> 00:31:18.500 Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence. 00:31:18.500 --> 00:31:24.500 If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life. 00:31:24.500 --> 00:31:26.179 Download the Practicing Presence app for free 00:31:26.340 --> 00:31:27.779 at choosingpresence dot 00:31:27.940 --> 00:31:28.340 org 00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:29.620 slash app. 00:31:29.620 --> 00:31:34.580 It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today. 00:31:34.580 --> 00:31:37.440 Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP. 00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:40.480 Until next time, brothers, stay present.