Brian Mueller: Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation.
Brian Mueller: My name is Brian Mueller.
Brian Mueller: I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen.
Brian Mueller: I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story.
Brian Mueller: This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what changed afterward.
Brian Mueller: Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude.
Brian Mueller: This podcast is brought to you by choosing Presence.
Brian Mueller: We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence.
Brian Mueller: In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now.
Brian Mueller: If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot
Brian Mueller: org slash app.
Brian Mueller: Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul.
Brian Mueller: On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path.
Brian Mueller: Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him.
Brian Mueller: My guest today is Matthew Lyda.
Brian Mueller: Brother, I'm really glad you're here.
Brian Mueller: Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story.
Brian Mueller: It's good to be here.
Brian Mueller: Thanks for asking me to hop on, Brian.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, Matt, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days.
Matthew Lyda: I'm from the former hunting grounds of the Cherokee people, known as Spartanburg, South Carolina.
Matthew Lyda: And my my time is spent going to hunchback of Notre Dame performances for my children.
Matthew Lyda: Soccer soccer tournaments for my youngest daughter, making some burritos for the family.
Matthew Lyda: And I'm also a spiritual director, and so I do a good bit of men's work and work in recovery and addictions.
Brian Mueller: Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: The MROP is a unique experience.
Brian Mueller: It's not a retreat or a workshop.
Brian Mueller: It's an initiation.
Brian Mueller: Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name.
Brian Mueller: Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning.
Brian Mueller: When and where did you make your rites?
Matthew Lyda: Mm-hmm.
Brian Mueller: Pilgrim Park, Illinois, 2018.
Brian Mueller: And who was the weaver and about how many men were there?
Matthew Lyda: Yeah, the weaver was a man named Jim Clarke, and the ritual elder was a man named Joe Lonergan.
Matthew Lyda: And I think there were about thirty five of
Matthew Lyda: us who were going through the rites for the first time.
Matthew Lyda: So that doesn't include the team or anybody coming back for a double dip.
Brian Mueller: When you think back to that weekend, what's the the first image or memory that comes forth for you?
Matthew Lyda: Oh my gosh.
Matthew Lyda: You know, I have to tread lightly here, Brian, because I know so much that happens on the rites is
Matthew Lyda: It's meant to be confidential in that.
Matthew Lyda: I don't want to spoil it for anyone.
Matthew Lyda: But there's, it's like a
Matthew Lyda: A cornucopia of images like a group of men, some things I saw in ritual, some like key moments, my day out in nature.
Matthew Lyda: So it's this whole
Brian Mueller: Patchwork of moments.
Brian Mueller: And when you think back to that weekend, just generally speaking, how was that entire weekend for you?
Brian Mueller: Yeah, it was.
Matthew Lyda: Challenging.
Matthew Lyda: It was exactly what I needed.
Matthew Lyda: It was a place of tears.
Matthew Lyda: It was a place of joy for sure.
Matthew Lyda: Yeah, it it was, man, as you even asked that question, just these moments are just like running through my mind.
Matthew Lyda: You know, a certain walk or a conversation I had with someone at dinner that was really important or
Matthew Lyda: Like another guy who just like dropped one line of poetry, but it was just like that one line that I needed to hear at that day.
Matthew Lyda: Another word actually that comes to mind is magical, and that's
Matthew Lyda: You know, to one set of eyes, it would seem like a pretty ordinary place.
Matthew Lyda: You know, pretty, pretty ordinary land and grass and riverbed.
Matthew Lyda: But for that those few days, it was something else.
Brian Mueller: It was powerful.
Brian Mueller: Well, thank you for sharing that.
Brian Mueller: I'm going to ask you to go a little bit deeper in the sense that
Brian Mueller: You already alluded to the fact that there are some things that you hold really close from this experience.
Brian Mueller: But without sharing anything that's too confidential or even personal, was there a particular encounter with another man or ritual or something that stood out to you?
Matthew Lyda: The synchronicity of what was happening in my life and what would later happen in my life and where the rites were in that.
Matthew Lyda: It's incredible.
Matthew Lyda: And so one thing that I didn't expect to happen, I didn't go in with this expectation that I would be grieving my two grandfathers.
Matthew Lyda: And my relationship with those two men.
Matthew Lyda: That wasn't on my agenda.
Matthew Lyda: You know, I had other ideas of what I'd be working on or what I needed to address.
Matthew Lyda: And I was really surprised that, you know.
Matthew Lyda: Ray Cene and Michael both just kind of rose.
Matthew Lyda: Those are my grandfathers.
Matthew Lyda: And
Matthew Lyda: I was surprised at the depth of grief and pain I had around those relationships that I had been carrying
Matthew Lyda: For over 20 years, over 20 years, without like a conscious naming of that.
Matthew Lyda: And so it was a weight.
Matthew Lyda: It was, you know, it was clogging the pipes in a way that I was unaware of.
Matthew Lyda: And so.
Matthew Lyda: That was a really big experience for me to have a space where I could grieve those two relationships.
Matthew Lyda: One of them had already died.
Matthew Lyda: And the crazy synchronicity in this, Brian, is that after that
Matthew Lyda: After that rites, the very next month, my wife pulled me out on the front porch and told me the news of my other grandfather's death.
Matthew Lyda: Shocking, surprising.
Matthew Lyda: And I look back at that and see how mystery was
Matthew Lyda: really preparing me for that news beforehand, a month beforehand.
Matthew Lyda: And so it's those kind of things, you know, that I can't script, that I can't predict, that I didn't even know I needed.
Matthew Lyda: I didn't even know I needed it, but it's been so key to moving forward in my life.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, I really appreciate that.
Brian Mueller: I told you before we started recording that one of our upcoming episodes is going to feature Bill McElroy.
Brian Mueller: Bill, although he's from Illinois, and he's often at the Pilgrim Park for those rites.
Brian Mueller: He made his rites at Ghost Ranch in 2004.
Brian Mueller: And one of the things he shares in his conversation is that he was really ambushed by also his grandfather and the wounding that his father experienced and how that kind of got transferred to him too.
Brian Mueller: So yeah, that's
Brian Mueller: As resident on a couple of levels, I think a lot of men are dealing with these relationships generationally coming through their father.
Brian Mueller: And then also that when you come to the rites, you may think you're coming for one reason.
Brian Mueller: And something quite different will kind of like you.
Brian Mueller: I think you use the word ambush.
Brian Mueller: Is that the word you would use?
Matthew Lyda: Yeah, something like that.
Matthew Lyda: Yeah, surprise.
Matthew Lyda: Yeah, shock.
Brian Mueller: So what were the circumstances in your life at the time that you made the decision to come to the rites?
Brian Mueller: What was going on in your life that you said, okay, yeah, I'm going to sign up and I'm going to go for this?
Matthew Lyda: So it was a
Matthew Lyda: Around 32, so still barely into my early adulthood.
Matthew Lyda: And I had already
Matthew Lyda: Stepped on a few landmines in my life and had significant life change where I was living overseas.
Matthew Lyda: And that fell through.
Matthew Lyda: My whole family and I were living in Southeast Asia, doing some important work there.
Matthew Lyda: Big dreams, really big dreams there.
Matthew Lyda: And just the bottom fell out of that.
Matthew Lyda: And so dreams interrupted, like high, high hopes.
Matthew Lyda: And then just boom, just complete collapse, complete collapse.
Matthew Lyda: And that had had that had happened a couple of times already, like some really big moments where
Matthew Lyda: especially inside of my marriage, where I had really left my relationship in ashes, just really on on the verge of just everything being being done.
Matthew Lyda: My wife and I have been separated for six months in 2016, trying to figure out if we were going to get back together.
Matthew Lyda: You were three young kids at that time, you know, around two, four, seven-ish.
Matthew Lyda: So, you know, at some, I don't know who said it, but something like the full catastrophe.
Matthew Lyda: You know, it's.
Matthew Lyda: You got a job, you got kids.
Matthew Lyda: It's just life is full on, you know, all the responsibilities.
Matthew Lyda: And another thing was happening to me, Brian, that again, that I did not foresee coming.
Matthew Lyda: And it was a lot of my closely
Matthew Lyda: held religious beliefs that had served me for a good 30 years were beginning to lose their grip.
Matthew Lyda: On me.
Matthew Lyda: And I was in some sort of like freefall of just finding myself
Matthew Lyda: No longer resonating with some of the language and the ways of being that I had served me in my adolescence, you know, in my early childhood, later childhood.
Matthew Lyda: And maybe earlier adulthood.
Matthew Lyda: And so, for example, I had, and this is the synchronicity again: like what happens before the rites and what happens after the rites.
Matthew Lyda: I had read a book like right up before the rites called “The Dream of the Earth” by Thomas Berry.
Matthew Lyda: And it was just like this other thing, just kind of poking at my
Matthew Lyda: My worldview that was kind of crumbling.
Matthew Lyda: You know, my, and so I was really in the midst of a paradigm shift.
Matthew Lyda: Of, I come from the Christian tradition and a particular strand of that tradition, a particular strain that would be Southern Baptists.
Matthew Lyda: And so
Matthew Lyda: Yeah, I was really in a place of, okay, what do I hold on to?
Matthew Lyda: And what is like a rummage sale?
Matthew Lyda: You know, like the every 500-year Christianity rummage sale that just no longer works.
Matthew Lyda: And that was a that was a big deal for me because that had been so near to my identity.
Matthew Lyda: Like a lot of particular beliefs were like so knit to like my family, my friends, my community.
Matthew Lyda: So
Matthew Lyda: All sorts of things funneling in towards the right.
Matthew Lyda: So, yeah, I brought a lot of shit to the right.
Brian Mueller: Brother, I really appreciate you sharing that because I've known you for a while, but I mean, I didn't know all that you were carrying at the rites.
Brian Mueller: And it certainly brought me back to the
Brian Mueller: My experience at the rites of talking to men, I was really surprised at how much men were bringing with them and were carrying them as a weight.
Brian Mueller: There was a lot of that among the men.
Brian Mueller: And I think that was two things: both very surprising and also somewhat reassuring or affirming that I'm not the only one carrying this weight.
Matthew Lyda: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: So how did your how did your family, how did your friends, specifically your wife, but even whatever spiritual directors you may have had or close friends and things like that, how did they react to your decision to go to the rites?
Matthew Lyda: Yeah, I thank God for an incredible spiritual director, and he encouraged me to go to the rites.
Matthew Lyda: And when I was integrating all of this post that experience, I talked through the whole thing, whole thing with him.
Matthew Lyda: And his feedback was, I could really see your deep longing for God, Matthew.
Matthew Lyda: Could really feel your deep longing for God.
Matthew Lyda: And so that word longing
Matthew Lyda: Was probably pretty central to what brought me into it, like desire, longing, and what was happening during it.
Matthew Lyda: My wife, on returning, she could see that something had shifted in me.
Matthew Lyda: And she could and this was kind of an ongoing process for me before the rites, but certainly the rites accelerated or amplified it.
Matthew Lyda: But she could notice like when I was on the edge of tears and and like important tears, like maybe communicating my love to her or communicating
Matthew Lyda: something important I've learned about my story.
Matthew Lyda: Her feedback was was really gratitude that she could see something was happening something was happening in me.
Matthew Lyda: Something important.
Brian Mueller: Was there anyone, given your background, and just you mentioned that you were Southern Baptist, or that was the faith tradition you came from?
Brian Mueller: Was there anybody that was really suspicious of these rites or what you might be experiencing what you might be choosing to experience by going to the rites?
Matthew Lyda: You know that's possible, Brian, and
Matthew Lyda: Nothing really comes to mind on like the suspicion or like uh nothing really comes to mind.
Matthew Lyda: General, general support from you know, my overall family.
Matthew Lyda: We've even though we've
Matthew Lyda: diverged in like different specific beliefs.
Matthew Lyda: There's a pretty solid respect, I believe.
Matthew Lyda: Now
Matthew Lyda: amount of interest, you know, post-rides.
Matthew Lyda: I'm like, Ben, tell me all about it.
Matthew Lyda: And oh my gosh, what's this?
Matthew Lyda: And, you know, really now that was not the same with everybody, right?
Matthew Lyda: You know, some people were happy to receive like the
Matthew Lyda: The 32nd.
Matthew Lyda: It was a good experience, right?
Matthew Lyda: And some people were curious and they wanted to know more.
Matthew Lyda: They're like, oh my gosh, what do you mean?
Matthew Lyda: How do what do you mean?
Matthew Lyda: You're, you know.
Matthew Lyda: in nature, you know, for a full day and what was happening there.
Matthew Lyda: So it was different levels of like curiosity and interest.
Matthew Lyda: But yeah, nothing particular that stands out as unsupportive.
Matthew Lyda: What did you know about the rites before going into them?
Matthew Lyda: So I was a little familiar with Richard Rohr, and I had read “Adam's Return”.
Matthew Lyda: So I was, you know, had some of that framing.
Matthew Lyda: I was also part of a closed group of men, a cohort called Men Four Directions.
Matthew Lyda: that was started by former Illumina Weaver Joel Blunk.
Matthew Lyda: And that program was very much about connecting with God in nature, who's very much built on the practice of counsel.
Matthew Lyda: Drumming was a part of that contemplative prayer.
Matthew Lyda: And so I had began that program in 2017.
Matthew Lyda: And so, whenever some of the guys in that program said, Matthew.
Matthew Lyda: You need to do the rites.
Matthew Lyda: We just finished our rites.
Matthew Lyda: We can't even tell you why, but just do it.
Matthew Lyda: I was very intrigued because those were a few men that I really trusted.
Matthew Lyda: And it felt like a continuation of that Men for Directions program that I was participating in.
Matthew Lyda: That's wonderful.
Brian Mueller: Especially to hear about Joel's involvement with that as well.
Brian Mueller: Now I imagine you being from South Carolina flying into Chicago
Brian Mueller: landing maybe at O'Hare, getting in a van with some other guys and driving out into the prairie where they're growing lots and lots of corn in central, north central
Brian Mueller: Illinois, and it's just flat as can be.
Brian Mueller: But then you come to this really strange little spot within Illinois where you kind of descend into a valley that's very wooded and everything.
Brian Mueller: And you come come into Pilgrim Park and
Brian Mueller: You arrive at Pilgrim Park, so you've just arrived.
Brian Mueller: What were you hoping for with the rites at that moment?
Brian Mueller: What were you hoping was there something you were wanting to be initiated into?
Matthew Lyda: Yeah, for the probably two years leading up to that right.
Matthew Lyda: So that was August 2018.
Matthew Lyda: A good two years before that, I had
Matthew Lyda: Begun a journey of coming back to my body.
Matthew Lyda: I was really, really top heavy, Brian.
Matthew Lyda: Really top heavy.
Matthew Lyda: If you had to like drew a stick figure of me, it'd be like a massive circle for the head.
Matthew Lyda: It would just take up the whole piece of paper.
Matthew Lyda: And then, like, a little, little, little line for the body, a little line for the arms.
Matthew Lyda: You know, symbolizing how heady, how, how, and I love books, you know, I love books, I love knowledge, you know, all this.
Matthew Lyda: And I had been on a journey for like two years prior.
Matthew Lyda: To really living into a truth for me that more important than knowing things was being numb.
Matthew Lyda: That had my enough had happened.
Matthew Lyda: I had realized that knowing things, knowledge acquisition, even of the best knowledge that I thought it was, whatever theology, you know, whatever worldview.
Matthew Lyda: It had gotten me to a point.
Matthew Lyda: It had gotten me to a point in my life, thankful for it, and I knew it would not carry me past 30.
Matthew Lyda: I knew that from that point, the charge on my life was being known, being known.
Matthew Lyda: And so I was hoping and moving into that, like being known by others, being known by God.
Matthew Lyda: Being known by myself, right?
Matthew Lyda: Like an awareness of who I am and what is my voice and what is my true self and what is it like to be, what is my gift to offer to the world or my particular way.
Matthew Lyda: of being masculine in the world.
Matthew Lyda: And so that was a big one being known.
Matthew Lyda: The second invitation that had really been current for me
Matthew Lyda: Was and actually I've paused it.
Matthew Lyda: I'll pick it back up.
Matthew Lyda: Was coming back to my body, and I like that stick figure body.
Matthew Lyda: And
Matthew Lyda: Beginning to trust that communication, wisdom, transformation would happen through my body.
Matthew Lyda: Body first, head second, or maybe head third or fourth.
Matthew Lyda: I don't know, but body first.
Matthew Lyda: I had grown up in a tradition where it was very important to know the right things.
Matthew Lyda: To say the right language and to articulate a very specific wordage, but
Matthew Lyda: Those two years leading up to the rites, I had found that I needed to recover my body intelligence.
Matthew Lyda: And I found that happening at the rites.
Matthew Lyda: I found that
Matthew Lyda: There's so much that happens there that speaks to the body and maybe even bypasses my thinking brain, like things that are beyond my understanding.
Matthew Lyda: Things, for example, I'll just give one example.
Matthew Lyda: At one point in the rites, I went by myself and I laid down in the creek bed.
Matthew Lyda: dried creek bed, and I w and I just wept.
Matthew Lyda: But I purposefully laid face forward face down, right?
Matthew Lyda: Prostrate.
Matthew Lyda: On that creek bed.
Matthew Lyda: And when I did that with my body, then the unloading happened.
Matthew Lyda: So I couldn't think my way.
Matthew Lyda: Into a new way of being.
Matthew Lyda: I knew that my body, things would need to happen with my body, whether in ritual or in nature
Matthew Lyda: And so that's what I went into the rites hoping and just like recovering my relationship to my full self.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, thank you for that.
Brian Mueller: That actually stimulates something I haven't thought about for a long time.
Brian Mueller: I made my own rites when I was about 40, and I used to say right around that time that I knew that the thinking that had gotten me to 40 was not going to get me to 80.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: And I may be far enough beyond that now that that doesn't come to mind much anymore.
Brian Mueller: But at the time I had that real sense in it.
Brian Mueller: Your own experience kind of rekindled that memory for me.
Brian Mueller: Was there anything you were fearing as you headed into the rites?
Matthew Lyda: Yeah.
Matthew Lyda: The inner critic voice in my head would say something like, Hey, Matthew, don't miss it.
Matthew Lyda: Don't miss it.
Matthew Lyda: Do it right.
Matthew Lyda: You know, you came here for a reason.
Matthew Lyda: So get the revelation.
Matthew Lyda: So, like, a fear of like missing what.
Matthew Lyda: I needed to hear, like missing what I needed to see, like what was there for me.
Matthew Lyda: I didn't let that drive, but yeah, there was a little bit of
Matthew Lyda: Which can kind of sometimes feel like pressure, right?
Matthew Lyda: Or like over exerting because I don't want to miss it.
Matthew Lyda: But uh whenever I noticed that I just would journal about it and maybe just let it go.
Matthew Lyda: Let it go.
Matthew Lyda: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: So the Rites you got through the Rites experience.
Brian Mueller: You spend the weekend there.
Brian Mueller: The closing ritual happens.
Brian Mueller: It's time to pack up, leave, head back to the airport.
Brian Mueller: How are you feeling kind of right in the moment as you left Pilgrim Park?
Matthew Lyda: Oh my gosh.
Matthew Lyda: Oh.
Matthew Lyda: Okay.
Matthew Lyda: So this is hyperbole, but the song lyric comes to mind.
Matthew Lyda: It's, I came here with nothing.
Matthew Lyda: I left here with everything.
Matthew Lyda: Came here with nothing.
Matthew Lyda: I left here with everything.
Matthew Lyda: Hyperbole, but because I didn't go in there with nothing.
Matthew Lyda: That's not true.
Matthew Lyda: But coming here, leaving with everything, that was a sense like.
Matthew Lyda: So connected, so known, like so seen, like like a almost like a shockwave of energy had like just been like shot right through me.
Matthew Lyda: I mean, gosh, I don't want to overstate it, but just like almost like a new man, like I had a sense that I had crossed a significant threshold, like something
Matthew Lyda: significant had just happened.
Matthew Lyda: And I wouldn't I wouldn't be spelling it out for a few years to come.
Matthew Lyda: But this sense like
Matthew Lyda: I'm so glad I did that.
Matthew Lyda: I saw things that I needed to see.
Matthew Lyda: I heard words I needed to hear.
Matthew Lyda: I met people I needed to meet.
Matthew Lyda: I cried tears that I was only going to cry there, that needed, that had been begging, had been begging to be.
Matthew Lyda: You know, poured out, and they and they were.
Matthew Lyda: So, a sense like that of leaving with everything.
Brian Mueller: That's powerful testimony.
Brian Mueller: So now it's been about eight years or so since you're right.
Brian Mueller: What has changed in your life practically, relationally, spiritually?
Matthew Lyda: Everything.
Matthew Lyda: Oh, Nan Brian, what has changed?
Matthew Lyda: You know, sometimes people will ask me about how did you become like this, Matthew?
Matthew Lyda: I don't know if that's a compliment or not.
Matthew Lyda: Or what happened to you?
Matthew Lyda: I would say there is in the last eight years a growing childlikeness and innocence, which is so paradoxical.
Matthew Lyda: Because there were so many tears, so much suffering, you know, so much anger, and so
Matthew Lyda: Yeah, just the flip side of that, like a new love for life, like a new, like I am in love with life.
Matthew Lyda: What has changed in the last eight years?
Matthew Lyda: Man.
Matthew Lyda: Oh my God.
Matthew Lyda: You know.
Matthew Lyda: My wife and I are about to celebrate our 20th anniversary not too far from now.
Matthew Lyda: And I can say that it has never been better between the two of us.
Matthew Lyda: It's like an old, old line of scripture.
Matthew Lyda: It says, I'll restore to you the years that the locusts have eaten.
Matthew Lyda: It's an old prophetic line in scripture.
Matthew Lyda: And that's what it feels like.
Matthew Lyda: It feels like so many years that were eaten away.
Matthew Lyda: by my fault self, by just living closed off.
Matthew Lyda: And it feels like those years are being restored in a big way.
Matthew Lyda: Yeah.
Matthew Lyda: Could say more, but that's a big difference.
Brian Mueller: Well, let me affirm that as one of the men that knows you in the Illuman community, you're that one of those people that has that sort of special charisma that brings with it a lot of energy, joy and
Brian Mueller: Joie de Vie, right?
Brian Mueller: The joy of life.
Brian Mueller: I think you're able to help connect others, men specifically, but also probably others with that inner
Brian Mueller: I want to say inner child, but not in a naive sense, but in a sense of playfulness and fun and enthusiasm and curiosity and excitement for life.
Brian Mueller: You really have that in spades.
Brian Mueller: And I don't know, maybe that was not.
Brian Mueller: on the surface before your rites, but it certainly is there now.
Matthew Lyda: Yeah, it's interesting the cor - the correlation of grief and praise, or tears
Matthew Lyda: And tears and praise.
Matthew Lyda: And I do believe they're very closely connected.
Matthew Lyda: Like my depth of grief.
Matthew Lyda: My depth of feeling of pain and the depth of joy.
Matthew Lyda: In my journey, I feel like they're really closely correlated.
Brian Mueller: So how has the rites affected your understanding of masculinity, initiation, even the male journey in life?
Matthew Lyda: Ryan, your questions are the best.
Matthew Lyda: Experience, experience, experience.
Matthew Lyda: I can't, I cannot read my way to this.
Matthew Lyda: And I'm glad we're on a podcast, but I can't podcast my way to this.
Matthew Lyda: Right.
Matthew Lyda: I'm not going to get enough inaudible or to I so I'll speak for myself.
Matthew Lyda: I must engage my body.
Matthew Lyda: On the land in community with other men, where I'm not in control.
Matthew Lyda: Like direct contact.
Matthew Lyda: John Muir has a quote about
Matthew Lyda: Like the dinner bells of like kind of calling us back to God.
Matthew Lyda: And he says, but out there in creation is direct contact.
Matthew Lyda: That was his word: direct contact.
Matthew Lyda: And so nothing touches direct contact.
Matthew Lyda: And so yeah.
Matthew Lyda: Boots on the ground, in a natural setting, drumming with men, all the things.
Matthew Lyda: That's where it's at.
Matthew Lyda: You know, and you and I both have conversations online and do this, and it's good.
Matthew Lyda: But yeah, how has it influenced how I see
Matthew Lyda: Like initiation in the masculine journey is nothing touches the bodily experience.
Matthew Lyda: The hugs, those rituals.
Matthew Lyda: Okay, that's another one.
Matthew Lyda: The ritual, the power of ceremony, the goodness of hearing, talking, and drumming, but also the power of the rituals like that.
Matthew Lyda: That stays with me too.
Matthew Lyda: You know, not being able to speak about the details of those rituals, but like those continue to stay with me.
Matthew Lyda: And
Matthew Lyda: I believe they have altered me in ways that, again, I wouldn't have been altered by watching a documentary.
Matthew Lyda: Right.
Matthew Lyda: The experience, experience and ritual.
Brian Mueller: Those two rise to the top.
Brian Mueller: Kind of backing up what you're saying there, I have this fond memory of you.
Brian Mueller: We were at a Shrine Mont.
Brian Mueller: The Awaken team was there preparing for the actually bonding, but also preparing for the November event.
Brian Mueller: And we were standing outside this pavilion.
Brian Mueller: It's summertime, but the clouds burst.
Brian Mueller: We have this all this rain and you're out there running around barefoot in the rain.
Brian Mueller: Trying to get all of us to do the same, just life and out there in the elements.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: So you practice what you preach.
Brian Mueller: I appreciate that.
Matthew Lyda: You know, Briah, that.
Matthew Lyda: You know, you saying that has actually been like really key to me.
Matthew Lyda: Like, I've actually always been a good air quote preacher or speaking, but my life has not always lined up.
Matthew Lyda: with what I would have said.
Matthew Lyda: And so that was probably really key to me in at the MROP little rhyme was
Matthew Lyda: Living a life aligned, like full alignment.
Matthew Lyda: Like what I say, what I do, it's the same.
Matthew Lyda: You know, it's like the roots of the tree.
Matthew Lyda: They mirror the
Matthew Lyda: Mirror the branches above.
Matthew Lyda: Like as it is below, so it is above.
Matthew Lyda: So, like, that peacemaking of here's what I say I believe, here's what I say I value, here's what I.
Matthew Lyda: Say I care about, okay, and here's what I do with my my money or my time or my life
Matthew Lyda: So integrity, right?
Matthew Lyda: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: Listening to Richard Rohr talk about these experiences, too.
Brian Mueller: I mean, he makes it really clear that if these rites have had truly had the impact that they're intended to have, it will make
Brian Mueller: A transformational change in your life and your orientation to life.
Brian Mueller: And the explicit messages, having talked to many men now about their rites experience, the explicit messages that many of them got from the rites
Brian Mueller: Rather, they were articulated the way I'm about to articulate them, or they're more implied just through the experience in general, is spend more time in nature
Brian Mueller: Go out and find or organize a community of men and participate in that community.
Brian Mueller: And three, develop some sort of centering or contemplative practice.
Brian Mueller: And so I'd like at this point for you to tell a little bit about what you do now in your life.
Brian Mueller: I mean, I know you as a person that goes out and
Brian Mueller: Creates, a creative person in the world, but not only does that, creates community, creates healing experiences for others.
Brian Mueller: So tell us a little bit about what you do.
Matthew Lyda: Yeah.
Matthew Lyda: So are you speaking about like my personal practices or like my service in the world?
Matthew Lyda: All the above.
Matthew Lyda: Oh man.
Matthew Lyda: Yeah.
Matthew Lyda: Well, one of my simple personal practices, Brian, is make it part of my day every day to check in with another man.
Matthew Lyda: And I just leave a voice text, and I call it checking in from the front lines of my heart.
Matthew Lyda: Best as I can tell.
Matthew Lyda: As best as I can tell.
Matthew Lyda: And so that is a practice, a daily practice.
Matthew Lyda: And I make note if I miss that.
Matthew Lyda: I make note if I miss that.
Matthew Lyda: And so it's a structured practice that has been consistent for a long while.
Matthew Lyda: What I do is I do create settings where men can experience some sort of freedom like I've tasted.
Matthew Lyda: So Wild Man Mystery School is the rebirthing of the M4D that Joel Blunt started.
Matthew Lyda: Wild Man Mystery School is that brought down to the southeast part of the States.
Matthew Lyda: And I had a conversation with Joel before he died, and I said, Hey, I want to do this, you know
Matthew Lyda: I don't even know how I'm going to do this.
Matthew Lyda: This is a few years ago.
Matthew Lyda: And he's, Matthew, take it and make it your own.
Matthew Lyda: And so
Matthew Lyda: Creating these spaces like that where men can have direct contact with creation, be challenged by teaching, challenged in community, and
Matthew Lyda: You know, really letting go of that lie, that illusion of separation.
Matthew Lyda: Anything that gets in the way, any, like Stephen Jekinson says, betray anything that betrays life.
Matthew Lyda: I feel like that's what.
Matthew Lyda: I help men do.
Matthew Lyda: I help them to be betrayers of anything that betrays life.
Matthew Lyda: Whatever gets in the way of flourishing, of life abundant, we betray that.
Matthew Lyda: And so I also do a good bit of work with men around problematic sexual behavior.
Matthew Lyda: So this is a part of the masculine journey: integrating our full sexual self.
Matthew Lyda: Right.
Matthew Lyda: I spoke about the body, the head, but everything, right?
Matthew Lyda: The whole body.
Matthew Lyda: And so healing that sexual, spiritual split or dichotomy.
Matthew Lyda: So what does a healthy, a wild, healthy, beautiful sexuality look like?
Matthew Lyda: So I help men move in that direction.
Matthew Lyda: Among, you know.
Matthew Lyda: A lot of other things I could say, but those are just a couple.
Brian Mueller: You know, there's a lot of hard edges that a man comes up against in his life.
Brian Mueller: It's just part of, I think.
Brian Mueller: The culture, I don't know what all to attribute it to, but there's a lot of these edges and lines, and there's a lot of times there's that inner voice or critic that is telling you this is the way it should be, this is how things are, etc.
Brian Mueller: etc.
Brian Mueller: What I'm leaning to here is, I want you to talk to the younger man, the man that may be in his 30s, maybe even in his 20s, that is considering a men's rites of passage, has heard about this, has maybe read Adam's Return.
Brian Mueller: And can you make a case totally consider this more deeply?
Matthew Lyda: Yeah.
Matthew Lyda: So for the young man.
Matthew Lyda: Here it is, Brian.
Matthew Lyda: Do not do it.
Matthew Lyda: If you're not ready, if you're not ready to encounter the most beautiful.
Matthew Lyda: Kingly, loving, mystical men I've ever met.
Matthew Lyda: If you're not ready for that, don't do it.
Matthew Lyda: And not ready to meet elders, wise ones.
Matthew Lyda: I mean, oh my God, to be loved, right?
Matthew Lyda: Do not do it.
Matthew Lyda: If you're not ready to, you know, embrace.
Matthew Lyda: Embrace the world, you know, and embrace others that are different from you, right?
Matthew Lyda: Who, if we could talk politics, we could talk religion, you know.
Matthew Lyda: You don't want that like full community, right?
Matthew Lyda: That says everybody belongs.
Matthew Lyda: Everyone belongs, right?
Matthew Lyda: Everyone is a child of God.
Matthew Lyda: Everyone has dignity.
Matthew Lyda: Then, you know, that might not be the right time for you.
Matthew Lyda: And I guess lastly, do not do it.
Matthew Lyda: If
Matthew Lyda: You don't want your thirties completely transformed.
Matthew Lyda: I mean, because they could be.
Matthew Lyda: They could be completely altered.
Matthew Lyda: Outside of what you would have dreamt, what you would have planned, what you thought you could control, and maybe a hell of a lot more adventurous too, with God.
Matthew Lyda: So how's that?
Matthew Lyda: Reasons not to do it.
Brian Mueller: No, that's wonderful.
Brian Mueller: And you know what?
Brian Mueller: Just talking to you now, I hope that we have many more conversations to come.
Brian Mueller: I understand that you are going to be at the Illinois Rites this
Brian Mueller: This August?
Brian Mueller: That's right.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: You're going to be what are you going to be doing at the Rice?
Matthew Lyda: Yeah, so I will be helping out with ritual with Joe Lonergan.
Matthew Lyda: Is this the first time you've been back to Pilgrim Park?
Brian Mueller: My first time.
Brian Mueller: All right.
Brian Mueller: Century rites.
Brian Mueller: Okay.
Brian Mueller: Well, great.
Brian Mueller: Brother, I look forward to seeing you there.
Brian Mueller: I'm going to be working with the initiators at those rites, and so we'll be together in person.
Brian Mueller: In body, you know, maybe in body.
Brian Mueller: So I want to say, brother, thank you really deeply.
Brian Mueller: I love you.
Brian Mueller: Thank you.
Brian Mueller: I really appreciate your honesty, your courage, and you giving us a window into your.
Brian Mueller: your MROP experience and beyond.
Brian Mueller: Mm-hmm.
Brian Mueller: Thank you, Brian.
Brian Mueller: For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more
Brian Mueller: Allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites.
Brian Mueller: The men's rites of passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six.
Brian Mueller: While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since twenty twelve Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world.
Brian Mueller: To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading “Adam's Return” by Richard Rohr.
Brian Mueller: If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six.
Brian Mueller: The first is in Northern California, may thirteenth through the seventeenth the second in the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth, and in Illinois, August twelfth through the sixteenth there's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth.
Brian Mueller: and the final one of the year is in Texas, which is in MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth.
Brian Mueller: You can find details and registration information at Illuman dot
Brian Mueller: org slash mrop
Brian Mueller: or Illuman dot org slash events.
Brian Mueller: Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico.
Brian Mueller: You can find more at Illuman dot org slash awaken.
Brian Mueller: Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence.
Brian Mueller: If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life.
Brian Mueller: Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence dot org slash app.
Brian Mueller: It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today.
Brian Mueller: Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP.
Brian Mueller: Until next time, brothers, stay present.