WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:12.480 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:13.240 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:18.520 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:25.560 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:25.060 --> 00:00:33.860 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what changed afterward. 00:00:33.860 --> 00:00:35.940 Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. 00:00:35.940 --> 00:00:38.980 This podcast is brought to you by choosing Presence. 00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:42.700 We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:48.860 In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:54.920 If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot 00:00:55.080 --> 00:00:56.840 org slash app. 00:00:56.740 --> 00:01:08.660 Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. 00:01:07.960 --> 00:01:12.840 On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:19.000 Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:01:25.520 --> 00:01:27.520 My guest today is Matthew Lyda. 00:01:27.520 --> 00:01:28.800 Brother, I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:28.800 --> 00:01:32.400 Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. 00:01:32.220 --> 00:01:33.420 It's good to be here. 00:01:33.420 --> 00:01:36.780 Thanks for asking me to hop on, Brian. 00:01:37.100 --> 00:01:40.860 Yeah, Matt, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:01:40.700 --> 00:01:49.580 I'm from the former hunting grounds of the Cherokee people, known as Spartanburg, South Carolina. 00:01:49.380 --> 00:01:58.500 And my my time is spent going to hunchback of Notre Dame performances for my children. 00:01:58.800 --> 00:02:08.000 Soccer soccer tournaments for my youngest daughter, making some burritos for the family. 00:02:07.620 --> 00:02:17.540 And I'm also a spiritual director, and so I do a good bit of men's work and work in recovery and addictions. 00:02:17.040 --> 00:02:19.600 Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. 00:02:19.600 --> 00:02:21.360 The MROP is a unique experience. 00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:22.880 It's not a retreat or a workshop. 00:02:22.880 --> 00:02:24.080 It's an initiation. 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:28.560 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:31.520 Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. 00:02:31.440 --> 00:02:33.280 When and where did you make your rites? 00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:33.920 Mm-hmm. 00:02:34.239 --> 00:02:39.200 Pilgrim Park, Illinois, 2018. 00:02:39.620 --> 00:02:42.420 And who was the weaver and about how many men were there? 00:02:42.740 --> 00:02:50.980 Yeah, the weaver was a man named Jim Clarke, and the ritual elder was a man named Joe Lonergan. 00:02:50.980 --> 00:02:53.380 And I think there were about thirty five of 00:02:53.920 --> 00:02:57.440 us who were going through the rites for the first time. 00:02:57.440 --> 00:03:03.520 So that doesn't include the team or anybody coming back for a double dip. 00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:09.360 When you think back to that weekend, what's the the first image or memory that comes forth for you? 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:11.440 Oh my gosh. 00:03:12.900 --> 00:03:21.459 You know, I have to tread lightly here, Brian, because I know so much that happens on the rites is 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:24.600 It's meant to be confidential in that. 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:27.560 I don't want to spoil it for anyone. 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:29.640 But there's, it's like a 00:03:31.220 --> 00:03:42.980 A cornucopia of images like a group of men, some things I saw in ritual, some like key moments, my day out in nature. 00:03:42.980 --> 00:03:44.659 So it's this whole 00:03:45.320 --> 00:03:48.520 Patchwork of moments. 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:53.720 And when you think back to that weekend, just generally speaking, how was that entire weekend for you? 00:03:54.040 --> 00:03:55.880 Yeah, it was. 00:03:56.660 --> 00:03:58.260 Challenging. 00:03:58.260 --> 00:04:01.620 It was exactly what I needed. 00:04:01.940 --> 00:04:04.980 It was a place of tears. 00:04:04.980 --> 00:04:07.940 It was a place of joy for sure. 00:04:07.900 --> 00:04:15.660 Yeah, it it was, man, as you even asked that question, just these moments are just like running through my mind. 00:04:15.660 --> 00:04:21.900 You know, a certain walk or a conversation I had with someone at dinner that was really important or 00:04:22.420 --> 00:04:31.220 Like another guy who just like dropped one line of poetry, but it was just like that one line that I needed to hear at that day. 00:04:31.540 --> 00:04:35.300 Another word actually that comes to mind is magical, and that's 00:04:36.080 --> 00:04:41.200 You know, to one set of eyes, it would seem like a pretty ordinary place. 00:04:41.200 --> 00:04:45.840 You know, pretty, pretty ordinary land and grass and riverbed. 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:49.960 But for that those few days, it was something else. 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:52.199 It was powerful. 00:04:52.520 --> 00:04:53.560 Well, thank you for sharing that. 00:04:53.560 --> 00:04:56.919 I'm going to ask you to go a little bit deeper in the sense that 00:04:57.260 --> 00:05:01.180 You already alluded to the fact that there are some things that you hold really close from this experience. 00:05:01.180 --> 00:05:11.420 But without sharing anything that's too confidential or even personal, was there a particular encounter with another man or ritual or something that stood out to you? 00:05:12.400 --> 00:05:22.720 The synchronicity of what was happening in my life and what would later happen in my life and where the rites were in that. 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:25.880 It's incredible. 00:05:25.880 --> 00:05:38.120 And so one thing that I didn't expect to happen, I didn't go in with this expectation that I would be grieving my two grandfathers. 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:40.960 And my relationship with those two men. 00:05:41.440 --> 00:05:43.520 That wasn't on my agenda. 00:05:43.520 --> 00:05:47.440 You know, I had other ideas of what I'd be working on or what I needed to address. 00:05:47.440 --> 00:05:50.480 And I was really surprised that, you know. 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:54.960 Ray Cene and Michael both just kind of rose. 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:57.040 Those are my grandfathers. 00:05:57.360 --> 00:05:57.680 And 00:05:58.880 --> 00:06:10.880 I was surprised at the depth of grief and pain I had around those relationships that I had been carrying 00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:20.600 For over 20 years, over 20 years, without like a conscious naming of that. 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:22.520 And so it was a weight. 00:06:22.520 --> 00:06:28.360 It was, you know, it was clogging the pipes in a way that I was unaware of. 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:30.760 And so. 00:06:31.640 --> 00:06:39.640 That was a really big experience for me to have a space where I could grieve those two relationships. 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:42.960 One of them had already died. 00:06:42.960 --> 00:06:48.240 And the crazy synchronicity in this, Brian, is that after that 00:06:49.020 --> 00:07:00.860 After that rites, the very next month, my wife pulled me out on the front porch and told me the news of my other grandfather's death. 00:07:00.400 --> 00:07:02.880 Shocking, surprising. 00:07:02.880 --> 00:07:08.960 And I look back at that and see how mystery was 00:07:10.260 --> 00:07:17.700 really preparing me for that news beforehand, a month beforehand. 00:07:17.700 --> 00:07:24.420 And so it's those kind of things, you know, that I can't script, that I can't predict, that I didn't even know I needed. 00:07:24.620 --> 00:07:31.740 I didn't even know I needed it, but it's been so key to moving forward in my life. 00:07:31.740 --> 00:07:33.020 Yeah, I really appreciate that. 00:07:33.020 --> 00:07:38.379 I told you before we started recording that one of our upcoming episodes is going to feature Bill McElroy. 00:07:37.960 --> 00:07:42.520 Bill, although he's from Illinois, and he's often at the Pilgrim Park for those rites. 00:07:42.520 --> 00:07:46.120 He made his rites at Ghost Ranch in 2004. 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:58.680 And one of the things he shares in his conversation is that he was really ambushed by also his grandfather and the wounding that his father experienced and how that kind of got transferred to him too. 00:07:58.680 --> 00:07:59.560 So yeah, that's 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:06.720 As resident on a couple of levels, I think a lot of men are dealing with these relationships generationally coming through their father. 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:12.720 And then also that when you come to the rites, you may think you're coming for one reason. 00:08:13.320 --> 00:08:16.360 And something quite different will kind of like you. 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:17.640 I think you use the word ambush. 00:08:17.960 --> 00:08:19.400 Is that the word you would use? 00:08:19.400 --> 00:08:20.520 Yeah, something like that. 00:08:20.520 --> 00:08:21.640 Yeah, surprise. 00:08:21.640 --> 00:08:23.080 Yeah, shock. 00:08:23.020 --> 00:08:28.220 So what were the circumstances in your life at the time that you made the decision to come to the rites? 00:08:28.220 --> 00:08:32.860 What was going on in your life that you said, okay, yeah, I'm going to sign up and I'm going to go for this? 00:08:33.980 --> 00:08:34.620 So it was a 00:08:35.579 --> 00:08:41.419 Around 32, so still barely into my early adulthood. 00:08:41.419 --> 00:08:43.339 And I had already 00:08:44.700 --> 00:08:57.740 Stepped on a few landmines in my life and had significant life change where I was living overseas. 00:08:57.700 --> 00:08:59.860 And that fell through. 00:08:59.860 --> 00:09:06.100 My whole family and I were living in Southeast Asia, doing some important work there. 00:09:06.800 --> 00:09:09.440 Big dreams, really big dreams there. 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:12.320 And just the bottom fell out of that. 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:17.920 And so dreams interrupted, like high, high hopes. 00:09:17.740 --> 00:09:22.780 And then just boom, just complete collapse, complete collapse. 00:09:23.100 --> 00:09:31.580 And that had had that had happened a couple of times already, like some really big moments where 00:09:32.560 --> 00:09:45.920 especially inside of my marriage, where I had really left my relationship in ashes, just really on on the verge of just everything being being done. 00:09:46.820 --> 00:09:56.580 My wife and I have been separated for six months in 2016, trying to figure out if we were going to get back together. 00:09:57.320 --> 00:10:03.160 You were three young kids at that time, you know, around two, four, seven-ish. 00:10:03.160 --> 00:10:07.720 So, you know, at some, I don't know who said it, but something like the full catastrophe. 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:08.840 You know, it's. 00:10:09.019 --> 00:10:11.019 You got a job, you got kids. 00:10:11.420 --> 00:10:16.220 It's just life is full on, you know, all the responsibilities. 00:10:17.020 --> 00:10:24.300 And another thing was happening to me, Brian, that again, that I did not foresee coming. 00:10:24.300 --> 00:10:27.500 And it was a lot of my closely 00:10:28.579 --> 00:10:42.500 held religious beliefs that had served me for a good 30 years were beginning to lose their grip. 00:10:42.500 --> 00:10:43.620 On me. 00:10:43.620 --> 00:10:50.500 And I was in some sort of like freefall of just finding myself 00:10:51.100 --> 00:11:04.460 No longer resonating with some of the language and the ways of being that I had served me in my adolescence, you know, in my early childhood, later childhood. 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:06.640 And maybe earlier adulthood. 00:11:06.640 --> 00:11:15.200 And so, for example, I had, and this is the synchronicity again: like what happens before the rites and what happens after the rites. 00:11:15.020 --> 00:11:22.140 I had read a book like right up before the rites called “The Dream of the Earth” by Thomas Berry. 00:11:22.460 --> 00:11:27.900 And it was just like this other thing, just kind of poking at my 00:11:29.100 --> 00:11:31.580 My worldview that was kind of crumbling. 00:11:31.580 --> 00:11:37.660 You know, my, and so I was really in the midst of a paradigm shift. 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:48.640 Of, I come from the Christian tradition and a particular strand of that tradition, a particular strain that would be Southern Baptists. 00:11:48.640 --> 00:11:49.279 And so 00:11:49.920 --> 00:11:54.319 Yeah, I was really in a place of, okay, what do I hold on to? 00:11:54.319 --> 00:11:57.120 And what is like a rummage sale? 00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:02.399 You know, like the every 500-year Christianity rummage sale that just no longer works. 00:12:02.420 --> 00:12:12.339 And that was a that was a big deal for me because that had been so near to my identity. 00:12:12.220 --> 00:12:19.340 Like a lot of particular beliefs were like so knit to like my family, my friends, my community. 00:12:19.340 --> 00:12:19.580 So 00:12:20.300 --> 00:12:24.220 All sorts of things funneling in towards the right. 00:12:24.220 --> 00:12:27.900 So, yeah, I brought a lot of shit to the right. 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:34.800 Brother, I really appreciate you sharing that because I've known you for a while, but I mean, I didn't know all that you were carrying at the rites. 00:12:34.800 --> 00:12:36.320 And it certainly brought me back to the 00:12:36.820 --> 00:12:45.460 My experience at the rites of talking to men, I was really surprised at how much men were bringing with them and were carrying them as a weight. 00:12:44.740 --> 00:12:46.660 There was a lot of that among the men. 00:12:46.660 --> 00:12:56.660 And I think that was two things: both very surprising and also somewhat reassuring or affirming that I'm not the only one carrying this weight. 00:12:56.660 --> 00:12:57.300 Yeah. 00:12:57.520 --> 00:13:09.760 So how did your how did your family, how did your friends, specifically your wife, but even whatever spiritual directors you may have had or close friends and things like that, how did they react to your decision to go to the rites? 00:13:10.920 --> 00:13:20.839 Yeah, I thank God for an incredible spiritual director, and he encouraged me to go to the rites. 00:13:20.560 --> 00:13:30.560 And when I was integrating all of this post that experience, I talked through the whole thing, whole thing with him. 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:36.600 And his feedback was, I could really see your deep longing for God, Matthew. 00:13:36.680 --> 00:13:40.600 Could really feel your deep longing for God. 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:42.120 And so that word longing 00:13:43.079 --> 00:13:51.240 Was probably pretty central to what brought me into it, like desire, longing, and what was happening during it. 00:13:51.079 --> 00:14:00.199 My wife, on returning, she could see that something had shifted in me. 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:10.360 And she could and this was kind of an ongoing process for me before the rites, but certainly the rites accelerated or amplified it. 00:14:09.920 --> 00:14:21.040 But she could notice like when I was on the edge of tears and and like important tears, like maybe communicating my love to her or communicating 00:14:21.620 --> 00:14:24.500 something important I've learned about my story. 00:14:24.500 --> 00:14:34.580 Her feedback was was really gratitude that she could see something was happening something was happening in me. 00:14:34.580 --> 00:14:36.019 Something important. 00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:44.200 Was there anyone, given your background, and just you mentioned that you were Southern Baptist, or that was the faith tradition you came from? 00:14:43.860 --> 00:14:52.260 Was there anybody that was really suspicious of these rites or what you might be experiencing what you might be choosing to experience by going to the rites? 00:14:52.820 --> 00:14:57.460 You know that's possible, Brian, and 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:05.080 Nothing really comes to mind on like the suspicion or like uh nothing really comes to mind. 00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:09.800 General, general support from you know, my overall family. 00:15:09.800 --> 00:15:11.640 We've even though we've 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:15.519 diverged in like different specific beliefs. 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:18.800 There's a pretty solid respect, I believe. 00:15:18.800 --> 00:15:19.040 Now 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:22.880 amount of interest, you know, post-rides. 00:15:22.959 --> 00:15:24.720 I'm like, Ben, tell me all about it. 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:26.319 And oh my gosh, what's this? 00:15:26.319 --> 00:15:30.800 And, you know, really now that was not the same with everybody, right? 00:15:30.800 --> 00:15:33.519 You know, some people were happy to receive like the 00:15:33.860 --> 00:15:34.980 The 32nd. 00:15:34.980 --> 00:15:36.900 It was a good experience, right? 00:15:37.300 --> 00:15:40.500 And some people were curious and they wanted to know more. 00:15:40.500 --> 00:15:42.900 They're like, oh my gosh, what do you mean? 00:15:42.900 --> 00:15:44.820 How do what do you mean? 00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:46.180 You're, you know. 00:15:47.079 --> 00:15:51.079 in nature, you know, for a full day and what was happening there. 00:15:51.079 --> 00:15:55.720 So it was different levels of like curiosity and interest. 00:15:55.720 --> 00:16:01.319 But yeah, nothing particular that stands out as unsupportive. 00:16:00.940 --> 00:16:03.500 What did you know about the rites before going into them? 00:16:04.140 --> 00:16:10.620 So I was a little familiar with Richard Rohr, and I had read “Adam's Return”. 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:14.840 So I was, you know, had some of that framing. 00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:23.960 I was also part of a closed group of men, a cohort called Men Four Directions. 00:16:24.500 --> 00:16:29.139 that was started by former Illumina Weaver Joel Blunk. 00:16:29.139 --> 00:16:38.819 And that program was very much about connecting with God in nature, who's very much built on the practice of counsel. 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:42.959 Drumming was a part of that contemplative prayer. 00:16:42.959 --> 00:16:47.440 And so I had began that program in 2017. 00:16:47.760 --> 00:16:52.880 And so, whenever some of the guys in that program said, Matthew. 00:16:52.540 --> 00:16:53.820 You need to do the rites. 00:16:53.820 --> 00:16:55.180 We just finished our rites. 00:16:55.180 --> 00:16:58.700 We can't even tell you why, but just do it. 00:16:59.019 --> 00:17:04.459 I was very intrigued because those were a few men that I really trusted. 00:17:04.419 --> 00:17:13.699 And it felt like a continuation of that Men for Directions program that I was participating in. 00:17:13.740 --> 00:17:14.860 That's wonderful. 00:17:14.860 --> 00:17:18.380 Especially to hear about Joel's involvement with that as well. 00:17:18.380 --> 00:17:22.780 Now I imagine you being from South Carolina flying into Chicago 00:17:22.919 --> 00:17:34.120 landing maybe at O'Hare, getting in a van with some other guys and driving out into the prairie where they're growing lots and lots of corn in central, north central 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:36.840 Illinois, and it's just flat as can be. 00:17:36.840 --> 00:17:42.840 But then you come to this really strange little spot within Illinois where you kind of descend into a valley that's very wooded and everything. 00:17:42.840 --> 00:17:45.799 And you come come into Pilgrim Park and 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:49.440 You arrive at Pilgrim Park, so you've just arrived. 00:17:49.760 --> 00:17:53.600 What were you hoping for with the rites at that moment? 00:17:53.600 --> 00:17:57.040 What were you hoping was there something you were wanting to be initiated into? 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:05.320 Yeah, for the probably two years leading up to that right. 00:18:05.320 --> 00:18:07.960 So that was August 2018. 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:10.760 A good two years before that, I had 00:18:11.760 --> 00:18:16.399 Begun a journey of coming back to my body. 00:18:16.399 --> 00:18:19.519 I was really, really top heavy, Brian. 00:18:19.600 --> 00:18:20.480 Really top heavy. 00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:25.919 If you had to like drew a stick figure of me, it'd be like a massive circle for the head. 00:18:25.919 --> 00:18:28.399 It would just take up the whole piece of paper. 00:18:28.399 --> 00:18:33.360 And then, like, a little, little, little line for the body, a little line for the arms. 00:18:34.040 --> 00:18:43.320 You know, symbolizing how heady, how, how, and I love books, you know, I love books, I love knowledge, you know, all this. 00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:47.880 And I had been on a journey for like two years prior. 00:18:48.080 --> 00:18:57.840 To really living into a truth for me that more important than knowing things was being numb. 00:18:57.600 --> 00:19:00.320 That had my enough had happened. 00:19:00.320 --> 00:19:10.320 I had realized that knowing things, knowledge acquisition, even of the best knowledge that I thought it was, whatever theology, you know, whatever worldview. 00:19:10.980 --> 00:19:12.980 It had gotten me to a point. 00:19:12.980 --> 00:19:21.539 It had gotten me to a point in my life, thankful for it, and I knew it would not carry me past 30. 00:19:21.760 --> 00:19:30.720 I knew that from that point, the charge on my life was being known, being known. 00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:39.800 And so I was hoping and moving into that, like being known by others, being known by God. 00:19:39.700 --> 00:19:42.020 Being known by myself, right? 00:19:42.020 --> 00:19:53.380 Like an awareness of who I am and what is my voice and what is my true self and what is it like to be, what is my gift to offer to the world or my particular way. 00:19:53.600 --> 00:19:57.200 of being masculine in the world. 00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:59.760 And so that was a big one being known. 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:04.720 The second invitation that had really been current for me 00:20:05.260 --> 00:20:08.700 Was and actually I've paused it. 00:20:08.700 --> 00:20:09.500 I'll pick it back up. 00:20:09.580 --> 00:20:13.980 Was coming back to my body, and I like that stick figure body. 00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:14.299 And 00:20:15.080 --> 00:20:27.080 Beginning to trust that communication, wisdom, transformation would happen through my body. 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:31.120 Body first, head second, or maybe head third or fourth. 00:20:31.120 --> 00:20:33.760 I don't know, but body first. 00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:40.800 I had grown up in a tradition where it was very important to know the right things. 00:20:41.179 --> 00:20:48.139 To say the right language and to articulate a very specific wordage, but 00:20:48.820 --> 00:20:56.500 Those two years leading up to the rites, I had found that I needed to recover my body intelligence. 00:20:56.500 --> 00:20:58.900 And I found that happening at the rites. 00:20:58.900 --> 00:21:00.100 I found that 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:11.440 There's so much that happens there that speaks to the body and maybe even bypasses my thinking brain, like things that are beyond my understanding. 00:21:13.260 --> 00:21:17.019 Things, for example, I'll just give one example. 00:21:17.019 --> 00:21:22.940 At one point in the rites, I went by myself and I laid down in the creek bed. 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:27.080 dried creek bed, and I w and I just wept. 00:21:27.080 --> 00:21:31.320 But I purposefully laid face forward face down, right? 00:21:31.320 --> 00:21:32.760 Prostrate. 00:21:32.620 --> 00:21:34.220 On that creek bed. 00:21:34.220 --> 00:21:39.580 And when I did that with my body, then the unloading happened. 00:21:39.580 --> 00:21:42.860 So I couldn't think my way. 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:44.520 Into a new way of being. 00:21:44.520 --> 00:21:50.600 I knew that my body, things would need to happen with my body, whether in ritual or in nature 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:59.360 And so that's what I went into the rites hoping and just like recovering my relationship to my full self. 00:21:58.919 --> 00:21:59.880 Yeah, thank you for that. 00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:02.440 That actually stimulates something I haven't thought about for a long time. 00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:12.360 I made my own rites when I was about 40, and I used to say right around that time that I knew that the thinking that had gotten me to 40 was not going to get me to 80. 00:22:14.540 --> 00:22:15.180 Yeah. 00:22:15.180 --> 00:22:15.900 Yeah. 00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:20.620 And I may be far enough beyond that now that that doesn't come to mind much anymore. 00:22:20.620 --> 00:22:23.180 But at the time I had that real sense in it. 00:22:23.940 --> 00:22:26.980 Your own experience kind of rekindled that memory for me. 00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:30.659 Was there anything you were fearing as you headed into the rites? 00:22:30.980 --> 00:22:31.860 Yeah. 00:22:31.919 --> 00:22:38.799 The inner critic voice in my head would say something like, Hey, Matthew, don't miss it. 00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:40.559 Don't miss it. 00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:41.480 Do it right. 00:22:41.800 --> 00:22:43.160 Do it right. 00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:44.920 You know, you came here for a reason. 00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:47.960 So get the revelation. 00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:53.560 So, like, a fear of like missing what. 00:22:53.900 --> 00:23:00.780 I needed to hear, like missing what I needed to see, like what was there for me. 00:23:00.780 --> 00:23:04.060 I didn't let that drive, but yeah, there was a little bit of 00:23:05.059 --> 00:23:07.460 Which can kind of sometimes feel like pressure, right? 00:23:07.460 --> 00:23:13.380 Or like over exerting because I don't want to miss it. 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:19.240 But uh whenever I noticed that I just would journal about it and maybe just let it go. 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:20.600 Let it go. 00:23:20.600 --> 00:23:21.640 Yeah. 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:24.520 So the Rites you got through the Rites experience. 00:23:24.520 --> 00:23:25.960 You spend the weekend there. 00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:27.320 The closing ritual happens. 00:23:27.320 --> 00:23:30.440 It's time to pack up, leave, head back to the airport. 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:34.840 How are you feeling kind of right in the moment as you left Pilgrim Park? 00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:37.240 Oh my gosh. 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:39.160 Oh. 00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:39.559 Okay. 00:23:39.559 --> 00:23:43.640 So this is hyperbole, but the song lyric comes to mind. 00:23:44.360 --> 00:23:46.760 It's, I came here with nothing. 00:23:46.760 --> 00:23:48.679 I left here with everything. 00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:49.940 Came here with nothing. 00:23:50.100 --> 00:23:51.940 I left here with everything. 00:23:51.940 --> 00:23:56.740 Hyperbole, but because I didn't go in there with nothing. 00:23:56.740 --> 00:23:58.580 That's not true. 00:23:58.580 --> 00:24:03.220 But coming here, leaving with everything, that was a sense like. 00:24:03.460 --> 00:24:17.620 So connected, so known, like so seen, like like a almost like a shockwave of energy had like just been like shot right through me. 00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:30.200 I mean, gosh, I don't want to overstate it, but just like almost like a new man, like I had a sense that I had crossed a significant threshold, like something 00:24:31.280 --> 00:24:33.680 significant had just happened. 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:39.920 And I wouldn't I wouldn't be spelling it out for a few years to come. 00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:41.200 But this sense like 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:43.800 I'm so glad I did that. 00:24:43.800 --> 00:24:45.320 I'm so glad I did that. 00:24:45.320 --> 00:24:48.600 I saw things that I needed to see. 00:24:48.600 --> 00:24:51.080 I heard words I needed to hear. 00:24:51.080 --> 00:24:53.880 I met people I needed to meet. 00:24:53.980 --> 00:25:05.020 I cried tears that I was only going to cry there, that needed, that had been begging, had been begging to be. 00:25:05.419 --> 00:25:08.700 You know, poured out, and they and they were. 00:25:09.020 --> 00:25:12.380 So, a sense like that of leaving with everything. 00:25:12.380 --> 00:25:14.700 That's powerful testimony. 00:25:14.679 --> 00:25:18.120 So now it's been about eight years or so since you're right. 00:25:18.120 --> 00:25:22.600 What has changed in your life practically, relationally, spiritually? 00:25:23.559 --> 00:25:25.160 Everything. 00:25:26.760 --> 00:25:32.200 Oh, Nan Brian, what has changed? 00:25:33.040 --> 00:25:41.280 You know, sometimes people will ask me about how did you become like this, Matthew? 00:25:41.280 --> 00:25:43.600 I don't know if that's a compliment or not. 00:25:44.600 --> 00:25:47.000 Or what happened to you? 00:25:47.320 --> 00:25:57.960 I would say there is in the last eight years a growing childlikeness and innocence, which is so paradoxical. 00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:04.440 Because there were so many tears, so much suffering, you know, so much anger, and so 00:26:05.620 --> 00:26:15.220 Yeah, just the flip side of that, like a new love for life, like a new, like I am in love with life. 00:26:15.179 --> 00:26:17.899 What has changed in the last eight years? 00:26:19.580 --> 00:26:20.620 Man. 00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:21.980 Oh my God. 00:26:21.980 --> 00:26:22.700 You know. 00:26:23.120 --> 00:26:29.520 My wife and I are about to celebrate our 20th anniversary not too far from now. 00:26:29.520 --> 00:26:35.920 And I can say that it has never been better between the two of us. 00:26:36.019 --> 00:26:39.539 It's like an old, old line of scripture. 00:26:39.779 --> 00:26:44.980 It says, I'll restore to you the years that the locusts have eaten. 00:26:44.740 --> 00:26:48.660 It's an old prophetic line in scripture. 00:26:48.660 --> 00:26:50.260 And that's what it feels like. 00:26:50.260 --> 00:26:55.060 It feels like so many years that were eaten away. 00:26:55.080 --> 00:26:59.799 by my fault self, by just living closed off. 00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:05.160 And it feels like those years are being restored in a big way. 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:06.880 Yeah. 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:09.760 Could say more, but that's a big difference. 00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:20.000 Well, let me affirm that as one of the men that knows you in the Illuman community, you're that one of those people that has that sort of special charisma that brings with it a lot of energy, joy and 00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:21.639 Joie de Vie, right? 00:27:21.639 --> 00:27:22.600 The joy of life. 00:27:22.600 --> 00:27:28.200 I think you're able to help connect others, men specifically, but also probably others with that inner 00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:37.080 I want to say inner child, but not in a naive sense, but in a sense of playfulness and fun and enthusiasm and curiosity and excitement for life. 00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:38.519 You really have that in spades. 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:41.000 And I don't know, maybe that was not. 00:27:41.019 --> 00:27:44.380 on the surface before your rites, but it certainly is there now. 00:27:44.779 --> 00:27:50.299 Yeah, it's interesting the cor - the correlation of grief and praise, or tears 00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:52.080 And tears and praise. 00:27:52.080 --> 00:27:56.160 And I do believe they're very closely connected. 00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:59.360 Like my depth of grief. 00:27:59.019 --> 00:28:03.419 My depth of feeling of pain and the depth of joy. 00:28:03.419 --> 00:28:08.299 In my journey, I feel like they're really closely correlated. 00:28:07.919 --> 00:28:14.799 So how has the rites affected your understanding of masculinity, initiation, even the male journey in life? 00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:18.000 Ryan, your questions are the best. 00:28:19.679 --> 00:28:22.159 Experience, experience, experience. 00:28:22.159 --> 00:28:24.960 I can't, I cannot read my way to this. 00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:29.760 And I'm glad we're on a podcast, but I can't podcast my way to this. 00:28:29.740 --> 00:28:29.980 Right. 00:28:29.980 --> 00:28:38.380 I'm not going to get enough inaudible or to I so I'll speak for myself. 00:28:38.380 --> 00:28:41.260 I must engage my body. 00:28:41.080 --> 00:28:46.520 On the land in community with other men, where I'm not in control. 00:28:46.520 --> 00:28:48.440 Like direct contact. 00:28:48.600 --> 00:28:50.280 John Muir has a quote about 00:28:50.900 --> 00:28:55.540 Like the dinner bells of like kind of calling us back to God. 00:28:55.540 --> 00:29:00.020 And he says, but out there in creation is direct contact. 00:29:00.020 --> 00:29:02.660 That was his word: direct contact. 00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:06.960 And so nothing touches direct contact. 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:10.400 And so yeah. 00:29:10.919 --> 00:29:19.480 Boots on the ground, in a natural setting, drumming with men, all the things. 00:29:19.480 --> 00:29:21.480 That's where it's at. 00:29:21.300 --> 00:29:26.420 You know, and you and I both have conversations online and do this, and it's good. 00:29:26.420 --> 00:29:29.620 But yeah, how has it influenced how I see 00:29:30.320 --> 00:29:38.560 Like initiation in the masculine journey is nothing touches the bodily experience. 00:29:38.120 --> 00:29:40.600 The hugs, those rituals. 00:29:40.600 --> 00:29:41.800 Okay, that's another one. 00:29:41.800 --> 00:29:50.920 The ritual, the power of ceremony, the goodness of hearing, talking, and drumming, but also the power of the rituals like that. 00:29:51.140 --> 00:29:53.140 That stays with me too. 00:29:53.140 --> 00:30:00.820 You know, not being able to speak about the details of those rituals, but like those continue to stay with me. 00:30:00.820 --> 00:30:01.140 And 00:30:02.120 --> 00:30:10.440 I believe they have altered me in ways that, again, I wouldn't have been altered by watching a documentary. 00:30:10.220 --> 00:30:10.780 Right. 00:30:11.260 --> 00:30:13.900 The experience, experience and ritual. 00:30:14.140 --> 00:30:15.820 Those two rise to the top. 00:30:15.820 --> 00:30:19.020 Kind of backing up what you're saying there, I have this fond memory of you. 00:30:19.020 --> 00:30:21.100 We were at a Shrine Mont. 00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:27.120 The Awaken team was there preparing for the actually bonding, but also preparing for the November event. 00:30:27.120 --> 00:30:28.960 And we were standing outside this pavilion. 00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:30.960 It's summertime, but the clouds burst. 00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:35.120 We have this all this rain and you're out there running around barefoot in the rain. 00:30:35.419 --> 00:30:39.820 Trying to get all of us to do the same, just life and out there in the elements. 00:30:41.179 --> 00:30:41.820 Yeah. 00:30:41.820 --> 00:30:42.059 Yeah. 00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:43.660 So you practice what you preach. 00:30:43.660 --> 00:30:44.780 I appreciate that. 00:30:46.380 --> 00:30:48.539 You know, Briah, that. 00:30:48.620 --> 00:30:52.700 You know, you saying that has actually been like really key to me. 00:30:52.700 --> 00:31:02.380 Like, I've actually always been a good air quote preacher or speaking, but my life has not always lined up. 00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:04.640 with what I would have said. 00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:10.480 And so that was probably really key to me in at the MROP little rhyme was 00:31:11.100 --> 00:31:15.100 Living a life aligned, like full alignment. 00:31:15.100 --> 00:31:18.779 Like what I say, what I do, it's the same. 00:31:18.779 --> 00:31:20.380