WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:12.480 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:13.240 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:18.520 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:25.560 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:25.060 --> 00:00:33.860 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterward. 00:00:33.860 --> 00:00:35.940 Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. 00:00:35.940 --> 00:00:38.980 This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence. 00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:42.700 We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:48.860 In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:54.920 If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot 00:00:55.080 --> 00:00:56.840 org slash app. 00:00:56.740 --> 00:01:08.660 Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. 00:01:07.960 --> 00:01:12.840 On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:19.000 Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:27.920 My guest today is Matt Domyancic. 00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:29.120 Brother, I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:32.400 Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. 00:01:31.939 --> 00:01:33.380 Happy to be here, Brian. 00:01:33.380 --> 00:01:34.180 Appreciate you. 00:01:34.180 --> 00:01:35.219 And a Illuman. 00:01:35.219 --> 00:01:38.020 Matt, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:01:38.020 --> 00:01:40.340 I live in San Diego, California now. 00:01:40.340 --> 00:01:45.140 I'm a one-man nonprofit, primarily for first responders and veterans. 00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:57.400 So I am on the phone, Zoom, texting, voice-memoing with ex-Special Operations guys, cops and firefighters all over California, but across the country as well. 00:01:57.220 --> 00:02:10.979 And just collaborating often with psychologists and trying to get high warrior archetype alpha males open to therapy and self-care and spending more time with their families and taking their foot off the gas. 00:02:10.540 --> 00:02:12.940 and normalizing self-care. 00:02:12.940 --> 00:02:15.420 Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. 00:02:15.420 --> 00:02:17.100 The MROP is a unique experience. 00:02:17.100 --> 00:02:20.540 It's not a retreat or a workshop, it's an initiation. 00:02:19.860 --> 00:02:24.340 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives looking for something they can't quite name. 00:02:24.340 --> 00:02:27.220 Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. 00:02:27.220 --> 00:02:29.620 When and where did you make your rites? 00:02:29.400 --> 00:02:33.320 Mine, I think, was 10 years ago in Big Bear, California. 00:02:33.320 --> 00:02:35.960 Who was your weaver and about how many men were there? 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:40.280 It was Father Jim Clarke, and I think Jim Taylor was there as well. 00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:41.800 Is that the guy with the long hair? 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:42.760 And yeah. 00:02:42.660 --> 00:02:44.420 Southern accent, I like that guy. 00:02:45.940 --> 00:02:47.060 My group was big. 00:02:47.060 --> 00:02:48.900 I'm thinking there were 30 or 40 dudes. 00:02:48.900 --> 00:02:50.900 It was pretty packed. 00:02:50.340 --> 00:02:53.460 And I know it was full because there were no more rooms left. 00:02:53.460 --> 00:02:54.660 So it was pretty packed. 00:02:54.660 --> 00:02:59.060 When you think back to that weekend, what's the first image that comes forth for you? 00:02:59.060 --> 00:03:03.220 For me, it was being patient. 00:03:03.200 --> 00:03:15.920 As often is the case on a lot of men's related retreats for me, and holding space often for a lot of other men, including the men that give like the testimonial speeches or some of the staff. 00:03:15.340 --> 00:03:25.980 Obviously, not Father Jim or Jim Taylor, but a lot of other volunteer staff who, very much like other Catholic and evangelical or first responder and veteran retreats. 00:03:26.020 --> 00:03:35.300 When you get men who have had a powerful experience as something like the MROP or related men's work. 00:03:34.820 --> 00:03:37.700 And it's done something significant for them. 00:03:37.700 --> 00:03:44.100 Very often, a year or two later, they want to volunteer and be on staff and be the mentor, the elder. 00:03:44.020 --> 00:03:46.340 And we can all tend to do this early. 00:03:46.340 --> 00:03:52.340 If I just started a new diet, or I started a new religious group, or I started working out and lost weight. 00:03:51.860 --> 00:04:01.940 or this meditation or mindfulness, I want to evangelize it to everyone else and kind of take a teacher role when it's like, whoa, whoa, maybe I'm just a rookie. 00:04:01.340 --> 00:04:03.660 And I'm just kind of learning the ropes here. 00:04:03.660 --> 00:04:10.380 But we get the helpers high wanting to fix and help everyone else. 00:04:09.820 --> 00:04:13.340 Maybe rather than serve from the soul. 00:04:13.340 --> 00:04:22.300 And if I could read a quick paragraph from an article I have, service is not an experience of strength or expertise. 00:04:22.020 --> 00:04:26.180 Service is an experience of mystery, surrender, and awe. 00:04:26.180 --> 00:04:29.060 Helpers and fixers feel causal. 00:04:29.060 --> 00:04:34.820 Servers may experience from time to time a sense of being used by larger, unknown forces. 00:04:34.620 --> 00:04:45.500 Those who serve have traded a sense of mastery for an experience of mystery, and in doing so have transformed their work and their lives into practice. 00:04:45.220 --> 00:04:46.580 And this is from Dr. 00:04:46.580 --> 00:04:48.580 Rachel Naomi Remen. 00:04:48.580 --> 00:04:58.660 And it's a longer article, but this has been my experience with a lot of different men's work, as well as like meditation, yoga, contemplative, spiritual retreats. 00:04:59.180 --> 00:05:10.540 People are excited about helping others, and it's well-intentioned and unconscious, but a lot of them are probably avoiding their own deeper work, and they don't know what they don't know. 00:05:10.440 --> 00:05:12.440 but they're excited about helping others. 00:05:12.440 --> 00:05:24.920 So for me, that MROP was holding a lot of space for other people that were super excited about what the MROP meant to them and sort of projecting that onto me. 00:05:25.380 --> 00:05:30.900 When it wasn't a similar experience for me, because I have a much different life history than a lot of men. 00:05:30.900 --> 00:05:32.020 Yeah, thank you for that. 00:05:32.020 --> 00:05:36.740 So, can you summarize what the entire weekend experience was like for you? 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:44.000 For me, it was a lot of self-reflection with my own interior voice, preparing for things that I was going to journal to Father Jim Clarke. 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:48.800 For those that know him, at the time, he was my theology professor in a grad program. 00:05:48.539 --> 00:05:52.699 And my spiritual director and was a mentor for over 10 years of my life. 00:05:52.699 --> 00:05:56.780 And just like, wow, I can't wait to talk to Father Jim about this. 00:05:56.760 --> 00:06:04.280 because of the things that I was seeing and reading with the other men, the staff, the volunteers, not so much the participants. 00:06:04.280 --> 00:06:10.280 It was more I was reflecting on the staff, the speakers and the volunteers. 00:06:09.940 --> 00:06:19.700 Now, without sharing anything you consider too personal or even confidential, do you have a particular memory or an encounter with another man that you're willing to share that captures what the rites meant to you? 00:06:19.700 --> 00:06:24.100 Or even something that just really stands out from that experience? 00:06:24.020 --> 00:06:31.300 So it wasn't so much what it meant to me, but it may capture some of this may make the point more clear up until this point. 00:06:31.300 --> 00:06:34.500 The way I'm talking, guys might be like, what the hell is he talking about? 00:06:34.500 --> 00:06:34.660 So 00:06:34.960 --> 00:06:46.639 One of the people that gave their testimonial, I would say, they get up in front of the group, was a gentleman who had a lot of trauma and a particular unique background that didn't relate to a lot of other men. 00:06:46.260 --> 00:06:48.260 Which Illuman sometimes does that. 00:06:48.260 --> 00:06:55.060 I think the virtue signal a bit will pick somebody around like DEI issues, then have them present. 00:06:54.920 --> 00:07:05.800 when 99% of the men or 98% are straight white, middle class, affluent, educated males, and then we have somebody talk about something that's not even practical to the rest of us. 00:07:05.340 --> 00:07:09.740 But we all cheerlead and clap that we're here doing the right thing. 00:07:09.740 --> 00:07:17.900 And this particular person, like many other men and groups I've been, they selected a speaker who hadn't done his own work. 00:07:17.539 --> 00:07:20.500 And he was attached to the wounded part of his story. 00:07:20.500 --> 00:07:22.099 And so he's up there presenting. 00:07:22.819 --> 00:07:31.060 He's being super emotional, clearly, he hasn't done his work for a long period of time and is getting attention for the wounded part of his story. 00:07:30.820 --> 00:07:41.060 And then during a meal, he sits down with me and then starts asking me to tell him what my father didn't do that I wished he had done. 00:07:40.440 --> 00:07:43.800 And for the people out there that don't know, my dad's just turned eighty one. 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:47.720 We're going on a bear hunt in Canada in a couple of weeks. 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:50.120 He still refs softball 00:07:50.139 --> 00:07:52.220 Umpire, softball, referees, basketball. 00:07:52.220 --> 00:07:53.820 My dad is a good man. 00:07:53.820 --> 00:07:58.540 We've been friends my whole life, best friends, hunting partners, my sports coach. 00:07:58.580 --> 00:07:59.940 And he had a tough childhood. 00:07:59.940 --> 00:08:01.380 He had an alcoholic father. 00:08:01.380 --> 00:08:04.180 His mom and grandma died when he was in college. 00:08:04.180 --> 00:08:08.340 Like, not an easy life, but my dad did a lot of things right. 00:08:08.580 --> 00:08:12.100 And is a very faithful, quiet man of prayer as well. 00:08:12.100 --> 00:08:15.460 And so this person's pressuring me to tell them where my dad screwed up. 00:08:15.460 --> 00:08:17.700 And I'm like, actually, he didn't. 00:08:17.340 --> 00:08:26.060 He didn't read the books that we do on Illuman or with masculine spirituality and psychology, but I read the books and I'm like, my dad did all this for me. 00:08:25.699 --> 00:08:30.340 And this person then was like, no, no, no, you can be honest with me. 00:08:30.340 --> 00:08:31.940 You can be vulnerable. 00:08:31.940 --> 00:08:33.380 Share, share. 00:08:33.259 --> 00:08:42.380 And maybe because I look like a meathead, you know, the ex-football SWAT guy, people think that I may think on appearance that I won't be vulnerable and I don't want to share. 00:08:42.380 --> 00:08:46.540 And it is a thing that I work with a lot of men, they don't want to be vulnerable. 00:08:46.040 --> 00:08:49.160 But if you push somebody, there's certainly that's not the best way. 00:08:49.160 --> 00:08:58.600 So even if I was lying about my father wound or my father hunger, pushing me on it is not going to make me feel comfortable to take the armor off. 00:08:58.339 --> 00:09:04.740 And this person wouldn't drop it even though I was telling them the truth in a very grounded manner. 00:09:04.740 --> 00:09:08.019 And it was just them wanting to have me share with them 00:09:08.339 --> 00:09:15.860 Maybe a common experience of having either an abusive or a negligent father, which is just not the case in my experience. 00:09:15.860 --> 00:09:17.699 But I was patient. 00:09:17.540 --> 00:09:20.019 With him and other men that wanted to mentor me. 00:09:20.019 --> 00:09:28.580 And that's and Father Jim observed this afterwards and said, you know, Matt, thanks for having grace for all of those guys that are trying to mentor and elder you. 00:09:29.040 --> 00:09:30.320 You don't need a redo. 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:37.760 You've learned most of these lessons from your father and other mentors, elders, and life experiences I've had. 00:09:37.339 --> 00:09:38.620 A lot, a lot of suffering. 00:09:38.699 --> 00:09:47.660 And I've also done a lot of not just dangerous wilderness trips with my dad, but 10-day silent vipassana, vision quests. 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:54.720 things that were significantly more meaningful and challenging for me than the MROP was. 00:09:55.040 --> 00:09:56.240 Yeah, thank you for sharing that. 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:57.520 I want to come back to this in a minute. 00:09:57.520 --> 00:10:00.000 But first, I want to follow that up. 00:09:59.980 --> 00:10:02.220 You gave so much information there, and it was very rich. 00:10:02.220 --> 00:10:03.260 I appreciate that. 00:10:03.260 --> 00:10:10.700 I know you as a man of amazing depth and breadth of experience, and as a man that also works really hard, not only 00:10:11.040 --> 00:10:18.800 Personally, on healing his wounds and things like that, but also helping others out there, specifically in the warrior community, as you say. 00:10:18.800 --> 00:10:24.560 But I want to know what made you decide to register and attend a men's rites of passage? 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:29.959 Probably that I had been involved with the Illuman for a number of years, even before I met Father Jim Clarke. 00:10:29.959 --> 00:10:35.640 And one of the things that Father Jim agreed to be my spiritual director was that there would be retreats. 00:10:35.140 --> 00:10:40.020 That he would want me to go on either with him or alone and then do reflection and come back. 00:10:40.020 --> 00:10:45.140 And also, I will say, I looked into the other men's groups, and some of them 00:10:45.660 --> 00:10:50.779 I didn't even like their marketing or from what my friends have said that I've gotten a lot out of. 00:10:50.779 --> 00:10:53.500 Why am I blanking on the other big group? 00:10:53.140 --> 00:10:54.660 The Mankind Project? 00:10:54.660 --> 00:10:56.180 Yeah, the Mankind Project. 00:10:56.180 --> 00:11:02.500 Like some of my friends that actually found it meaningful said they did pretty hard edge, like yelling and aggressive stuff. 00:11:02.500 --> 00:11:03.140 And I'm like 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:08.000 Man, I've been through football camps, boot camps, prisoner of war training, sniper schools. 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:14.640 Like, I've already done that type of stuff where, like, really badass men were hard on me in different ways. 00:11:14.640 --> 00:11:14.800 So 00:11:15.140 --> 00:11:24.340 That wasn't appealing to me to go to one where they're going to try to like initiate my warrior archetype when I clearly knew I've already been through the ringer with those types of things. 00:11:24.340 --> 00:11:24.580 So 00:11:24.920 --> 00:11:33.880 I still love and adore, even though it may sound critical of Illuman, I love and adore the emphasis on the contemplative spirituality. 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:41.640 And doing the second half of life, as the Roar might talk about, and falling upward, and authors like Bill Plotkins and James Hollis. 00:11:42.339 --> 00:11:49.540 There's a richness to the men's group of Illuman that does have more depth than a lot of the other groups. 00:11:49.540 --> 00:11:52.660 And so that's why I've always continued to have an interest 00:11:52.740 --> 00:11:55.460 And trying to stay involved, if that makes sense. 00:11:55.460 --> 00:11:56.100 ppreciate that. 00:11:56.100 --> 00:11:56.980 That's good to hear. 00:11:56.980 --> 00:12:06.580 But I also want to know, so when you made the decision to attend, and maybe you told your partner, you told your dad, you told your friends, what was their reaction to your decision to go to a rites? 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:14.840 I had already done so many other things that it's like Matt, Matt's a nerd with the self-growth and the healing stuff and the retreats. 00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:15.240 I've been 00:12:15.640 --> 00:12:17.080 I mean, that was 10 years ago. 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:28.840 And at that point, it had been 20 years of me already attending men's retreats, contemplative retreats, veterans' retreats, first responder retreats, that type of thing. 00:12:28.820 --> 00:12:29.540 Yeah. 00:12:29.540 --> 00:12:33.220 Well, when you arrived at the Wrights, and you said it was was it a Big Bear Lake? 00:12:33.220 --> 00:12:34.500 Is that where you were at? 00:12:34.500 --> 00:12:40.980 Yeah, it's ma it's a mountain like a mountain region about two hours north of Los Angeles. 00:12:40.640 --> 00:12:41.920 Yeah, it sounds beautiful. 00:12:41.920 --> 00:12:47.600 But when you arrived at the rites, was there something you were hoping for or wanting to be initiated into? 00:12:47.920 --> 00:12:49.600 You know, that's a good question. 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:52.880 I think I may have went into it already. 00:12:52.620 --> 00:12:57.660 With some of these reservations and suspicions because I had already been involved with Illuman for so long. 00:12:57.660 --> 00:13:03.899 And in the Southern California region, I would go to the groups and question things about some of the 00:13:04.339 --> 00:13:18.180 The reactions, the emphasis on politics, and also like not that I needed it because I had my father and had been in spiritual direction for 20 years, and at that point had probably been in 10 years of psychoanalysis. 00:13:18.180 --> 00:13:18.500 And 00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:27.160 and twenty years of contemplative practices, I think think sometimes back then I might have been hoping for a little more community. 00:13:27.160 --> 00:13:31.079 We need community and we need peers and men struggle. 00:13:30.920 --> 00:13:36.360 At finding that, I've already had the mentors and the elders, including like Father Jim at the time. 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:42.440 So it's not like I needed to go to the MROP to have exposure to a Father Jim Clarke, which I wish. 00:13:42.140 --> 00:13:47.420 every man would have one Father Jim Clarke, even for one MROP in in their life. 00:13:47.420 --> 00:13:53.740 Or we just did another Simon Lina Illuman retreat at a monastery with Father Jim for the guys in Southern California. 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:55.520 What an experience. 00:13:55.520 --> 00:14:02.800 I think back then I would be more hopeful for is there going to be any other men that are going to be like peers of mine? 00:14:02.800 --> 00:14:04.240 And usually it's 00:14:05.079 --> 00:14:14.120 Somewhat not now, it could be somewhat of a disappointment because I haven't met a lot of guys that have gone down the rabbit hole of doing the type of work I've done. 00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:16.279 And I'm not better than anyone by any means. 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:18.040 By the grace of God, 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:28.160 I had the type of father I did, and other mentors early in my life that helped me dig deeper into this, including a lot of women, to be honest, more liberal. 00:14:28.040 --> 00:14:36.120 Women that were deeper on the spiritual and psychological journey that I became friends with, that pushed and challenged me. 00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:36.440 So 00:14:36.839 --> 00:14:41.399 I think I went hopeful, hey, anytime with Father Jim is awesome. 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:43.240 Soak that up. 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:46.519 And will I find community in this space? 00:14:46.259 --> 00:14:48.660 Was there anything you were fearing, though, heading into the rites? 00:14:48.899 --> 00:14:52.180 No, because I don't have a problem being vulnerable, Brian. 00:14:52.180 --> 00:14:56.100 So, like, that type of stuff doesn't I think a lot of men on any of these things 00:14:56.360 --> 00:15:02.840 Their fear is like, holy shit, I'm going to have to share part of my story or share my feelings in front of other men. 00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:04.200 That's so hard. 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:05.560 And that's not a problem with me. 00:15:05.560 --> 00:15:06.840 Like, I'm sentimental. 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:09.320 I'll cry watching movies or walking down the street. 00:15:09.839 --> 00:15:12.399 Seeing two old people holding hands or whatever. 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:21.120 So I'm not scared of sharing my emotions, the things, and I wouldn't want to talk about all of it since people don't know what it is when they go on it. 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:29.240 The types of things they do to try to challenge you there are just not things that were challenging for me based on my previous life experiences. 00:15:28.560 --> 00:15:31.440 I understand that, but how did you feel after the right? 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:34.320 So you're there for four nights, you know, parts of five days. 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.120 It's a significant amount of time and investment. 00:15:36.620 --> 00:15:37.580 What did you come away with? 00:15:37.580 --> 00:15:39.420 What did you leave feeling like? 00:15:39.420 --> 00:15:42.700 An initial frustration, and then I went home. 00:15:42.700 --> 00:15:49.019 And back then, I got to see Father Jim once a week because he was still teaching at Loyal to Mary Mountain. 00:15:49.019 --> 00:15:51.019 I was still a grad student there. 00:15:50.920 --> 00:15:52.839 So I would, well, I saw it more. 00:15:52.839 --> 00:15:56.120 I'd see them in classes, but I'd do spiritual direction every week. 00:15:56.120 --> 00:15:59.160 I'd go for an hour or two of office hours. 00:15:58.640 --> 00:16:03.440 I usually couldn't get to because so many other students wanted to see him, so I couldn't hog it all. 00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:06.880 But I would write reflection papers after retreats we did together. 00:16:06.880 --> 00:16:11.840 And what I did was wrote a very and I do this even now for my psychiatrist analyst. 00:16:11.339 --> 00:16:20.540 As I go through my daily experiences, it's almost like the A Nation spiritual exam, and I journal about it and then I send it to my psychiatrist. 00:16:20.540 --> 00:16:24.540 So by the time I go up for therapy, he's already caught up on my week. 00:16:24.160 --> 00:16:25.600 I did that with Father Jim. 00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:28.960 I did that with Father Hurley, my previous spiritual director. 00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:38.080 So I self-reflected on my experience at MROP and then came in to see Father Jim that next week. 00:16:37.820 --> 00:16:42.140 And I puckered up because I was like, damn, I was really honest. 00:16:42.140 --> 00:16:47.740 And I know some of these people in Illumina have been his friends for years, if not decades. 00:16:47.240 --> 00:17:01.720 And I was really honest, not as far as being critical, but just like, this is my read on them, my impression where some of them are unconscious of their own areas they need to work on and where they're to some degree, quote, getting their rocks off. 00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:04.459 on fixing and helping others. 00:17:04.459 --> 00:17:08.060 And then as Father Jim's reading it, I'm getting puckered up. 00:17:08.060 --> 00:17:10.140 Oh my God, maybe I shouldn't have been too honest. 00:17:10.140 --> 00:17:16.220 I have such a good relationship with Father Jim, and now I'm being critical of Illuman and friends of his. 00:17:16.140 --> 00:17:21.180 But he read through it, then he just kind of chuckled and, you know, said, Matt, great read. 00:17:21.180 --> 00:17:24.220 I've known some of these guys all the way back to 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:28.000 Going to seminary, and you nailed all of it. 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:34.000 So, hey, if you've already been initiated in certain ways, you don't need a redo. 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:44.920 And you've been lucky enough to have your father and so many other people in life experiences where you learned these lessons that the MROP is initiating other men with. 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:48.160 So yeah, you just you didn't need a redo on that. 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:51.600 So it's been about 10 years since you made your rites. 00:17:51.600 --> 00:17:56.240 What have you taken away from that experience, especially now that you've got a little bit of distance? 00:17:56.300 --> 00:18:03.500 The fact that I think it is still so valuable for most men to go and attempt to do something like that 00:18:03.740 --> 00:18:07.100 And not hopefully not listen to me and see, like, you know what? 00:18:07.100 --> 00:18:09.980 See, I don't need to go on one of these men's retreats. 00:18:09.980 --> 00:18:11.500 I, too, have done my work. 00:18:11.500 --> 00:18:12.460 I, too. 00:18:12.460 --> 00:18:13.900 Have had mentors and elders. 00:18:13.900 --> 00:18:19.820 We have a good way of playing mental gymnastics to avoid the type of work that we really need. 00:18:19.820 --> 00:18:21.580 And I think that the MROP 00:18:22.140 --> 00:18:32.860 Compared to some of the other ones I've had exposure to, even including the first responder and veteran initiations, and they call them different things, where I would want 00:18:33.419 --> 00:18:42.700 First responders and veterans to be able to go to an MROP to be exposed to those teachings, if it's say Father Jim. 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:42.640 Right. 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:46.000 Somebody that I know that they might feel seen and safe with. 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:50.320 But I think it's such a valuable thing, and I have to not be as 00:18:50.940 --> 00:18:59.659 I joke that I'm a judgmental prick that other men haven't had the opportunities that I've had, and there's such a need. 00:18:59.620 --> 00:19:01.140 For the opportunity. 00:19:01.140 --> 00:19:06.820 And even now, like psychedelics are so big, especially for veterans and first responders. 00:19:06.820 --> 00:19:08.740 But there's a lot of, they don't do work. 00:19:08.740 --> 00:19:11.780 You go trip your balls off and then you share. 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:22.920 I would want men to do work in community and one-on-one therapy, spiritual direction, and go on an MROP before they go on a psychedelic retreat. 00:19:22.340 --> 00:19:28.419 And to do that without substances or maybe a forced spiritual experience. 00:19:28.419 --> 00:19:32.660 And I think an MROP would give you training wheels. 00:19:32.620 --> 00:19:39.900 To maximize, say, even if you did decide down the road to do something like a psychedelic retreat, because there's no one and done. 00:19:39.900 --> 00:19:44.140 The MROP is not going to initiate you just like psychedelics. 00:19:43.740 --> 00:19:47.740 or five sessions of the EMDR or pick your poison. 00:19:47.740 --> 00:19:49.580 Nothing is going to make it a one and done. 00:19:49.580 --> 00:19:53.820 You're cured, you're healed, and you're enlightened for the rest of your life. 00:19:53.820 --> 00:19:55.420 And I think the MROP 00:19:56.040 --> 00:20:06.040 I continue to believe the MROP has more rich substance in the areas that men need the most than my exposure to other men's groups. 00:20:05.419 --> 00:20:08.860 You've had a rich depth of experience. 00:20:08.860 --> 00:20:14.380 You knew Jim Clarke going into this retreat, the men's rites of passage. 00:20:13.860 --> 00:20:15.620 You've read Father Richard's stuff. 00:20:15.620 --> 00:20:18.740 You no doubt met him and read Adam's Return, among other books. 00:20:18.740 --> 00:20:22.659 So you had a really good sense of what you were about to experience. 00:20:22.740 --> 00:20:32.660 What though did anything change in you in in your own views of initiation, of masculinity, of even spirituality from that experience? 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:34.400 I can't say that anything did. 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:43.360 And just to be super fair, I have legally gone on some of these psychedelic retreats with other veterans and first responders, even though I don't even drink alcohol. 00:20:43.360 --> 00:20:45.440 I've never smoked weed. 00:20:45.140 --> 00:20:49.700 I wanted to see what that was all about and did a lot of research. 00:20:49.700 --> 00:20:54.500 And I've done some of the different medicines out there, and then I would get done. 00:20:54.500 --> 00:20:56.820 And a veteran would be like, So are you changed? 00:20:56.820 --> 00:20:57.700 And I'm like, 00:20:58.260 --> 00:20:59.220 No. 00:20:59.539 --> 00:21:05.779 And what that medicine did, and I'll say the medicine is unconditional love. 00:21:05.779 --> 00:21:08.260 And I've experienced unconditional love 00:21:08.620 --> 00:21:18.860 And the presence of God in my language, or peace, even during pain and adversity and storms, through the appropriate healthy relationships. 00:21:18.500 --> 00:21:27.700 Through consistent meditation and contemplative practices, through these other silent retreats and nature trips. 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:38.840 And even sensory deprivation, float tanks, and being in spiritual direction and being in therapy, some of the same type of peace or the release of unconscious material. 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:51.120 Because you can go to an MROP and part of it is co-regulation, where you can calm down your physiology and a community of like-minded men, and you have some other men role modeling being vulnerable. 00:21:50.640 --> 00:22:04.160 And that allows you, hopefully, to take the chance to be vulnerable and to expose yourself in a way that you find out you're not the only one that has experienced some of these universal themes of suffering. 00:22:04.019 --> 00:22:12.019 And that can be so transformative and allow for emotional sobriety and an increase in consciousness. 00:22:12.019 --> 00:22:17.139 And so I haven't found the retreats that work for me retreats 00:22:17.419 --> 00:22:26.700 Or if I the 10 days silent retreats with no phones, no books, no nothing, or say like some of these Canada trips with my dad. 00:22:26.340 --> 00:22:35.940 We've been stranded in the wilderness and snow or rainstorms where the guide can't pick us up, and we don't know if we're going to make it out, and we're going to get hypothermia because we can't start a fire. 00:22:35.940 --> 00:22:39.539 Some of those things have been like spiritual experiences. 00:22:39.660 --> 00:22:45.500 Beyond what I've had on any type of men's work, first responder, veteran retreats. 00:22:45.500 --> 00:22:49.500 And yet, I have to continue to recognize that other people 00:22:49.940 --> 00:23:00.260 Are not going to have those trips with my father, their own father, or have a father Jim as a spiritual director for ten years, or the father Hurley. 00:23:00.120 --> 00:23:03.640 Who's the director of spiritual formation in Rome at a seminary? 00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:06.120 That's who I had before Father Jim. 00:23:06.120 --> 00:23:09.080 So I've just been fortunate and blessed. 00:23:08.800 --> 00:23:13.440 To have the mentors, the elders, and the peers throughout my life. 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:19.920 And also to where when I went to football camp or prisoner of war, SWAT schools, sniper schools. 00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:21.720 Yeah, because a lot of other men go through those. 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:25.320 I went in them with the intention to grow spiritually. 00:23:25.320 --> 00:23:30.600 It wasn't me trying to get external validation for being a football player or SWAT guy. 00:23:30.320 --> 00:23:37.200 And even my experience in the immersion of suffering of others as a police officer was me feeling through 00:23:38.120 --> 00:23:40.760 Discernment that that's where God wanted me. 00:23:40.760 --> 00:23:44.200 So, all of those experiences in my life didn't break me down. 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:49.000 They were spiritual experiences or post-traumatic growth. 00:23:48.460 --> 00:23:53.820 where I grew deeper in my faith through the exposure of other people's suffering and my own suffering. 00:23:53.820 --> 00:23:58.540 But I had an orientation of the lessons that Illuman tries to teach men. 00:23:58.540 --> 00:24:02.700 I had them going into all my other life experiences. 00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:04.480 So, I wasn't as confused. 00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:12.000 And this is what I try to teach spawners and veterans, even if you have some of the intellectual knowledge and spiritual practices. 00:24:11.540 --> 00:24:19.700 and the mentors and the peers, when the shitstorm hits, it's still going to be hard because to grow to the next level psychologically and spiritually 00:24:20.040 --> 00:24:26.120 you have to be overwhelmed beyond the capacity of whatever tools or perspective you have right now. 00:24:26.120 --> 00:24:29.720 And it's not fun and it's not pleasant. 00:24:29.060 --> 00:24:41.380 So don't wait until you're on your second or third divorce or you lost your job and you're struggling with alcohol to be like, maybe now I'll sign up for that MROP and maybe now I'll think about therapy or spiritual direction. 00:24:40.940 --> 00:24:42.860 And that's often what does happen. 00:24:42.860 --> 00:24:48.299 It's the crisis and the brokenness that makes men vulnerable enough to want to do something like this. 00:24:48.299 --> 00:24:54.779 But my heart's desire is don't wait until you're that rock bottom because it's that much harder to turn things around. 00:24:54.820 --> 00:25:03.140 And we all need community mentors and deeper teachings than what modern society is giving us, and especially 00:25:03.540 --> 00:25:08.340 These modern books and influencers on masculinity like make me want to vomit. 00:25:08.340 --> 00:25:09.940 They are not good teachings. 00:25:09.940 --> 00:25:13.060 And there's even some Netflix thing on masculinity that 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:14.720 People have asked me to watch. 00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:17.760 I did 20 seconds of it and I was like, I can't even watch this. 00:25:17.760 --> 00:25:19.279 It's so unhealthy. 00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:27.919 So the role modeling we're getting from other men on even on LinkedIn, definitely Instagram and TV is just not healthy. 00:25:27.560 --> 00:25:35.880 And Illuman still has really good teachings that not just grown men, but I hope Illuman grows with its working with younger men. 00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:41.800 Like I know Ned right now, I couldn't go is with a bunch of 30-year-old guys in Utah. 00:25:41.340 --> 00:25:43.340 doing like a a vision quest. 00:25:43.740 --> 00:25:53.900 So, yeah, like I would love more men to have exposure to the MROP, even if it if it didn't significantly transform me in any way. 00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:55.320 So who should go to the rites? 00:25:55.320 --> 00:25:56.520 Who should consider this? 00:25:56.840 --> 00:26:00.440 Well, as it is right now, I just talked about younger men. 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:03.640 Now, younger men, because this is not a biological thing. 00:26:03.740 --> 00:26:15.340 But if you've experienced some suffering in your life, that you realize you're possibly, if you're a person of faith, the morality rules to get to heaven to see the white bearded guy in the sky. 00:26:14.760 --> 00:26:19.559 They no longer work now that, you know, you're going through a divorce. 00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:22.840 Your child was diagnosed with autism. 00:26:22.540 --> 00:26:30.220 Your wife got diagnosed with breast cancer, or mom has Alzheimer, and you're the only sibling that lives close enough to help be a caretaker. 00:26:30.220 --> 00:26:32.540 Your work ethic, your intellectual 00:26:33.380 --> 00:26:37.380 Capacity to figure things out is not going to solve those problems. 00:26:37.380 --> 00:26:42.820 So you've started to learn by now that you've achieved success 00:26:43.100 --> 00:26:49.659 In your life, but the way that you achieve that success is no longer working for the problems that are coming up. 00:26:49.659 --> 00:26:52.299 Or even if there's like an unknown spiritual 00:26:52.900 --> 00:26:57.860 Thirst and yearning for something more than whatever you're getting? 00:26:57.860 --> 00:27:01.620 What is it like to do work on my head and my heart? 00:27:01.620 --> 00:27:05.940 And also, have you not had a community of men that you can be real about? 00:27:05.740 --> 00:27:11.500 And you're only talking about sports, sex, politics and tits and ass. 00:27:11.500 --> 00:27:17.660 Like guys will talk about the most superficial external things, even though it's like a man of fate. 00:27:17.060 --> 00:27:23.460 Or somebody that is loyal to their wife, but when they go to work or they're with their friends, people are still talking about bullshit. 00:27:23.460 --> 00:27:26.820 But nobody says, no, no, is anybody else stressed? 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:28.560 Is anybody else struggling? 00:27:28.560 --> 00:27:33.200 Is anybody else thinking there's something more to life than this that we don't exactly understand? 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:38.880 And nobody's given us a blueprint for this, and everybody else looks like they're happy. 00:27:38.700 --> 00:27:40.220 Online and at work. 00:27:40.220 --> 00:27:48.540 And so if you got any type of pain inside, or you're dealing with uncertainty and you don't have other men 00:27:49.120 --> 00:28:00.000 that it's safe to take your armor off or be vulnerable with, I would seriously consider the MROP and checking out your regional Illuman Group 00:28:00.460 --> 00:28:02.140 Because you have nothing to lose, really. 00:28:02.140 --> 00:28:03.660 Like, it's not dangerous, right? 00:28:03.660 --> 00:28:09.180 You could, maybe you go, and like me, you're like, ah, maybe I already sort of knew this stuff, but it's. 00:28:08.919 --> 00:28:14.600 very likely you haven't had a lot of the experiences or done the type of work I've done. 00:28:14.600 --> 00:28:18.120 So you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. 00:28:18.120 --> 00:28:19.880 And I do know that these different 00:28:20.500 --> 00:28:24.740 All types of men's work out there, but definitely a lumen. 00:28:24.740 --> 00:28:31.299 There's people that I haven't seen for 10 or 15 years that I saw on the silent retreat that we recently did. 00:28:31.040 --> 00:28:41.840 And it's like a day hasn't passed almost like they're old friends because there's something different about the friendships built on the contemplative fellowship. 00:28:41.840 --> 00:28:45.520 I don't know if every illumined man would want me using that word. 00:28:45.040 --> 00:28:57.600 but the contemplative fellowship that's authentic around what's going on in your head, in your heart, in your spiritual life, in ways that maybe organized religion no longer meets that need for you. 00:28:57.419 --> 00:29:03.820 but you're still curious, then I think Illuman and the MROP would be very worthwhile. 00:29:03.820 --> 00:29:07.419 And we can't give away that which we do not possess for ourselves. 00:29:07.419 --> 00:29:11.179 Men want to be protectors, providers and fixers, but 00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:17.919 Often their well goes dry and they can't give their family, their friends, or their coworkers a drink of water. 00:29:17.919 --> 00:29:21.760 Take your foot off the gas, commit to an MROP. 00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:27.160 Where you're going to do some self-exploration, and most likely it's not going to be comfortable. 00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:31.960 Like this is not comfortable and easy for most men. 00:29:31.260 --> 00:29:41.740 Like the doing the harder things is no longer like in my world, people are still in their 50s posting up their workout, their cold plunge, their sauna, their strict meal. 00:29:41.740 --> 00:29:44.220 That is not doing harder things. 00:29:44.120 --> 00:29:54.040 Going to an MROP or going to a sound bath with your partner or going to a meditation or breath work class or leaving your phone at home and spending four hours 00:29:54.419 --> 00:29:55.539 Sitting by a lake. 00:29:55.539 --> 00:30:00.260 That's the doing harder things to deal with what's coming up from within. 00:30:00.260 --> 00:30:05.940 And there's with every one of us, there's something unconscious, most likely from your childhood. 00:30:05.840 --> 00:30:16.799 Previous relationship patterns that are unhealed wounds that you're not even aware of, and you're not going to be aware of them unless you do something like the MROP. 00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:18.580 and other work on your own too. 00:30:18.580 --> 00:30:22.980 So there's work you have to do alone, and then there's work you have to do in community. 00:30:22.980 --> 00:30:27.060 And I think the MROP is a good way to do some of that work. 00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:30.460 or have some of that emotional sobriety happen in community. 00:30:30.460 --> 00:30:37.180 And then maybe you go home and stay connected to your men's group, but also look into therapy or spiritual direction. 00:30:36.940 --> 00:30:40.380 Or yoga, Tai Chi, Qi Gong, journaling. 00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:45.260 There's a lot of different ways to do nervous system regulation and self-reflection. 00:30:45.580 --> 00:30:49.179 But who shouldn't come to a men's rites of passage? 00:30:48.940 --> 00:30:55.419 Don't come if you think you already know it all and you have arrived and you ain't got shit to work on. 00:30:55.419 --> 00:30:59.659 Like, if you don't have the intention to grow or even 00:31:00.800 --> 00:31:06.080 Even a slight opening that maybe I'll see what this feels like and be vulnerable. 00:31:06.080 --> 00:31:10.640 Like, if you're not going to be honest, like I talk about this, you can go to therapy. 00:31:10.040 --> 00:31:13.880 and not be honest with your therapist, it's not doing anything for you. 00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:17.480 And I know people that go to therapy and they're not honest with their therapist. 00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:19.400 So how much can that help you? 00:31:19.780 --> 00:31:32.100 You have to have the willingness to potentially be vulnerable with other men, or even if you're not going to be vulnerable with the other men when you're in council and group. 00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:35.919 There are times where you spend some time alone in nature. 00:31:35.919 --> 00:31:39.279 Are you willing to be honest with yourself? 00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:41.640 And are you willing to really like? 00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:42.280 I don't know. 00:31:42.280 --> 00:31:50.440 Do they when I went, smartphones weren't as much a thing, but I would hope that you're willing to say, I'm going to turn my phone off. 00:31:50.440 --> 00:31:52.760 I'm going to leave my phone in the car. 00:31:53.120 --> 00:32:02.400 And I'm going to tell everybody that I'm unplugged for these four or five days, and I'm really going to focus on myself, whatever that may look like. 00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:11.180