Brian Mueller: Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation.
Brian Mueller: My name is Brian Mueller.
Brian Mueller: I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen.
Brian Mueller: I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story.
Brian Mueller: This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterward.
Brian Mueller: Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude.
Brian Mueller: This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence.
Brian Mueller: We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence.
Brian Mueller: In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now.
Brian Mueller: If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot
Brian Mueller: org slash app.
Brian Mueller: Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul.
Brian Mueller: On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path.
Brian Mueller: Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him.
Brian Mueller: My guest today is Matt Domyancic.
Brian Mueller: Brother, I'm really glad you're here.
Brian Mueller: Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story.
Brian Mueller: Happy to be here, Brian.
Brian Mueller: Appreciate you.
Brian Mueller: And a Illuman.
Brian Mueller: Matt, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days.
Matt Domyancic: I live in San Diego, California now.
Matt Domyancic: I'm a one-man nonprofit, primarily for first responders and veterans.
Matt Domyancic: So I am on the phone, Zoom, texting, voice-memoing with ex-Special Operations guys, cops and firefighters all over California, but across the country as well.
Matt Domyancic: And just collaborating often with psychologists and trying to get high warrior archetype alpha males open to therapy and self-care and spending more time with their families and taking their foot off the gas.
Matt Domyancic: and normalizing self-care.
Brian Mueller: Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: The MROP is a unique experience.
Brian Mueller: It's not a retreat or a workshop, it's an initiation.
Brian Mueller: Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives looking for something they can't quite name.
Brian Mueller: Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning.
Brian Mueller: When and where did you make your rites?
Brian Mueller: Mine, I think, was 10 years ago in Big Bear, California.
Matt Domyancic: Who was your weaver and about how many men were there?
Matt Domyancic: It was Father Jim Clarke, and I think Jim Taylor was there as well.
Matt Domyancic: Is that the guy with the long hair?
Matt Domyancic: And yeah.
Matt Domyancic: Southern accent, I like that guy.
Matt Domyancic: My group was big.
Matt Domyancic: I'm thinking there were 30 or 40 dudes.
Matt Domyancic: It was pretty packed.
Matt Domyancic: And I know it was full because there were no more rooms left.
Matt Domyancic: So it was pretty packed.
Brian Mueller: When you think back to that weekend, what's the first image that comes forth for you?
Matt Domyancic: For me, it was being patient.
Matt Domyancic: As often is the case on a lot of men's related retreats for me, and holding space often for a lot of other men, including the men that give like the testimonial speeches or some of the staff.
Matt Domyancic: Obviously, not Father Jim or Jim Taylor, but a lot of other volunteer staff who, very much like other Catholic and evangelical or first responder and veteran retreats.
Matt Domyancic: When you get men who have had a powerful experience as something like the MROP or related men's work.
Matt Domyancic: And it's done something significant for them.
Matt Domyancic: Very often, a year or two later, they want to volunteer and be on staff and be the mentor, the elder.
Matt Domyancic: And we can all tend to do this early.
Matt Domyancic: If I just started a new diet, or I started a new religious group, or I started working out and lost weight.
Matt Domyancic: or this meditation or mindfulness, I want to evangelize it to everyone else and kind of take a teacher role when it's like, whoa, whoa, maybe I'm just a rookie.
Matt Domyancic: And I'm just kind of learning the ropes here.
Matt Domyancic: But we get the helpers high wanting to fix and help everyone else.
Matt Domyancic: Maybe rather than serve from the soul.
Matt Domyancic: And if I could read a quick paragraph from an article I have, service is not an experience of strength or expertise.
Matt Domyancic: Service is an experience of mystery, surrender, and awe.
Matt Domyancic: Helpers and fixers feel causal.
Matt Domyancic: Servers may experience from time to time a sense of being used by larger, unknown forces.
Matt Domyancic: Those who serve have traded a sense of mastery for an experience of mystery, and in doing so have transformed their work and their lives into practice.
Matt Domyancic: And this is from Dr.
Matt Domyancic: Rachel Naomi Remen.
Matt Domyancic: And it's a longer article, but this has been my experience with a lot of different men's work, as well as like meditation, yoga, contemplative, spiritual retreats.
Matt Domyancic: People are excited about helping others, and it's well-intentioned and unconscious, but a lot of them are probably avoiding their own deeper work, and they don't know what they don't know.
Matt Domyancic: but they're excited about helping others.
Matt Domyancic: So for me, that MROP was holding a lot of space for other people that were super excited about what the MROP meant to them and sort of projecting that onto me.
Matt Domyancic: When it wasn't a similar experience for me, because I have a much different life history than a lot of men.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, thank you for that.
Brian Mueller: So, can you summarize what the entire weekend experience was like for you?
Matt Domyancic: For me, it was a lot of self-reflection with my own interior voice, preparing for things that I was going to journal to Father Jim Clarke.
Matt Domyancic: For those that know him, at the time, he was my theology professor in a grad program.
Matt Domyancic: And my spiritual director and was a mentor for over 10 years of my life.
Matt Domyancic: And just like, wow, I can't wait to talk to Father Jim about this.
Matt Domyancic: because of the things that I was seeing and reading with the other men, the staff, the volunteers, not so much the participants.
Matt Domyancic: It was more I was reflecting on the staff, the speakers and the volunteers.
Brian Mueller: Now, without sharing anything you consider too personal or even confidential, do you have a particular memory or an encounter with another man that you're willing to share that captures what the rites meant to you?
Brian Mueller: Or even something that just really stands out from that experience?
Matt Domyancic: So it wasn't so much what it meant to me, but it may capture some of this may make the point more clear up until this point.
Matt Domyancic: The way I'm talking, guys might be like, what the hell is he talking about?
Matt Domyancic: So
Matt Domyancic: One of the people that gave their testimonial, I would say, they get up in front of the group, was a gentleman who had a lot of trauma and a particular unique background that didn't relate to a lot of other men.
Matt Domyancic: Which Illuman sometimes does that.
Matt Domyancic: I think the virtue signal a bit will pick somebody around like DEI issues, then have them present.
Matt Domyancic: when 99% of the men or 98% are straight white, middle class, affluent, educated males, and then we have somebody talk about something that's not even practical to the rest of us.
Matt Domyancic: But we all cheerlead and clap that we're here doing the right thing.
Matt Domyancic: And this particular person, like many other men and groups I've been, they selected a speaker who hadn't done his own work.
Matt Domyancic: And he was attached to the wounded part of his story.
Matt Domyancic: And so he's up there presenting.
Matt Domyancic: He's being super emotional, clearly, he hasn't done his work for a long period of time and is getting attention for the wounded part of his story.
Matt Domyancic: And then during a meal, he sits down with me and then starts asking me to tell him what my father didn't do that I wished he had done.
Matt Domyancic: And for the people out there that don't know, my dad's just turned eighty one.
Matt Domyancic: We're going on a bear hunt in Canada in a couple of weeks.
Matt Domyancic: He still refs softball
Matt Domyancic: Umpire, softball, referees, basketball.
Matt Domyancic: My dad is a good man.
Matt Domyancic: We've been friends my whole life, best friends, hunting partners, my sports coach.
Matt Domyancic: And he had a tough childhood.
Matt Domyancic: He had an alcoholic father.
Matt Domyancic: His mom and grandma died when he was in college.
Matt Domyancic: Like, not an easy life, but my dad did a lot of things right.
Matt Domyancic: And is a very faithful, quiet man of prayer as well.
Matt Domyancic: And so this person's pressuring me to tell them where my dad screwed up.
Matt Domyancic: And I'm like, actually, he didn't.
Matt Domyancic: He didn't read the books that we do on Illuman or with masculine spirituality and psychology, but I read the books and I'm like, my dad did all this for me.
Matt Domyancic: And this person then was like, no, no, no, you can be honest with me.
Matt Domyancic: You can be vulnerable.
Matt Domyancic: Share, share.
Matt Domyancic: And maybe because I look like a meathead, you know, the ex-football SWAT guy, people think that I may think on appearance that I won't be vulnerable and I don't want to share.
Matt Domyancic: And it is a thing that I work with a lot of men, they don't want to be vulnerable.
Matt Domyancic: But if you push somebody, there's certainly that's not the best way.
Matt Domyancic: So even if I was lying about my father wound or my father hunger, pushing me on it is not going to make me feel comfortable to take the armor off.
Matt Domyancic: And this person wouldn't drop it even though I was telling them the truth in a very grounded manner.
Matt Domyancic: And it was just them wanting to have me share with them
Matt Domyancic: Maybe a common experience of having either an abusive or a negligent father, which is just not the case in my experience.
Matt Domyancic: But I was patient.
Matt Domyancic: With him and other men that wanted to mentor me.
Matt Domyancic: And that's and Father Jim observed this afterwards and said, you know, Matt, thanks for having grace for all of those guys that are trying to mentor and elder you.
Matt Domyancic: You don't need a redo.
Matt Domyancic: You've learned most of these lessons from your father and other mentors, elders, and life experiences I've had.
Matt Domyancic: A lot, a lot of suffering.
Matt Domyancic: And I've also done a lot of not just dangerous wilderness trips with my dad, but 10-day silent vipassana, vision quests.
Brian Mueller: things that were significantly more meaningful and challenging for me than the MROP was.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
Brian Mueller: I want to come back to this in a minute.
Brian Mueller: But first, I want to follow that up.
Brian Mueller: You gave so much information there, and it was very rich.
Brian Mueller: I appreciate that.
Brian Mueller: I know you as a man of amazing depth and breadth of experience, and as a man that also works really hard, not only
Brian Mueller: Personally, on healing his wounds and things like that, but also helping others out there, specifically in the warrior community, as you say.
Brian Mueller: But I want to know what made you decide to register and attend a men's rites of passage?
Matt Domyancic: Probably that I had been involved with the Illuman for a number of years, even before I met Father Jim Clarke.
Matt Domyancic: And one of the things that Father Jim agreed to be my spiritual director was that there would be retreats.
Matt Domyancic: That he would want me to go on either with him or alone and then do reflection and come back.
Matt Domyancic: And also, I will say, I looked into the other men's groups, and some of them
Matt Domyancic: I didn't even like their marketing or from what my friends have said that I've gotten a lot out of.
Matt Domyancic: Why am I blanking on the other big group?
Matt Domyancic: The Mankind Project?
Matt Domyancic: Yeah, the Mankind Project.
Matt Domyancic: Like some of my friends that actually found it meaningful said they did pretty hard edge, like yelling and aggressive stuff.
Matt Domyancic: And I'm like
Matt Domyancic: Man, I've been through football camps, boot camps, prisoner of war training, sniper schools.
Matt Domyancic: Like, I've already done that type of stuff where, like, really badass men were hard on me in different ways.
Matt Domyancic: So
Matt Domyancic: That wasn't appealing to me to go to one where they're going to try to like initiate my warrior archetype when I clearly knew I've already been through the ringer with those types of things.
Matt Domyancic: So
Matt Domyancic: I still love and adore, even though it may sound critical of Illuman, I love and adore the emphasis on the contemplative spirituality.
Matt Domyancic: And doing the second half of life, as the Roar might talk about, and falling upward, and authors like Bill Plotkins and James Hollis.
Matt Domyancic: There's a richness to the men's group of Illuman that does have more depth than a lot of the other groups.
Matt Domyancic: And so that's why I've always continued to have an interest
Matt Domyancic: And trying to stay involved, if that makes sense.
Brian Mueller: ppreciate that.
Brian Mueller: That's good to hear.
Brian Mueller: But I also want to know, so when you made the decision to attend, and maybe you told your partner, you told your dad, you told your friends, what was their reaction to your decision to go to a rites?
Matt Domyancic: I had already done so many other things that it's like Matt, Matt's a nerd with the self-growth and the healing stuff and the retreats.
Matt Domyancic: I've been
Matt Domyancic: I mean, that was 10 years ago.
Matt Domyancic: And at that point, it had been 20 years of me already attending men's retreats, contemplative retreats, veterans' retreats, first responder retreats, that type of thing.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: Well, when you arrived at the Wrights, and you said it was was it a Big Bear Lake?
Brian Mueller: Is that where you were at?
Matt Domyancic: Yeah, it's ma it's a mountain like a mountain region about two hours north of Los Angeles.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, it sounds beautiful.
Brian Mueller: But when you arrived at the rites, was there something you were hoping for or wanting to be initiated into?
Matt Domyancic: You know, that's a good question.
Matt Domyancic: I think I may have went into it already.
Matt Domyancic: With some of these reservations and suspicions because I had already been involved with Illuman for so long.
Matt Domyancic: And in the Southern California region, I would go to the groups and question things about some of the
Matt Domyancic: The reactions, the emphasis on politics, and also like not that I needed it because I had my father and had been in spiritual direction for 20 years, and at that point had probably been in 10 years of psychoanalysis.
Matt Domyancic: And
Matt Domyancic: and twenty years of contemplative practices, I think think sometimes back then I might have been hoping for a little more community.
Matt Domyancic: We need community and we need peers and men struggle.
Matt Domyancic: At finding that, I've already had the mentors and the elders, including like Father Jim at the time.
Matt Domyancic: So it's not like I needed to go to the MROP to have exposure to a Father Jim Clarke, which I wish.
Matt Domyancic: every man would have one Father Jim Clarke, even for one MROP in in their life.
Matt Domyancic: Or we just did another Simon Lina Illuman retreat at a monastery with Father Jim for the guys in Southern California.
Matt Domyancic: What an experience.
Matt Domyancic: I think back then I would be more hopeful for is there going to be any other men that are going to be like peers of mine?
Matt Domyancic: And usually it's
Matt Domyancic: Somewhat not now, it could be somewhat of a disappointment because I haven't met a lot of guys that have gone down the rabbit hole of doing the type of work I've done.
Matt Domyancic: And I'm not better than anyone by any means.
Matt Domyancic: By the grace of God,
Matt Domyancic: I had the type of father I did, and other mentors early in my life that helped me dig deeper into this, including a lot of women, to be honest, more liberal.
Matt Domyancic: Women that were deeper on the spiritual and psychological journey that I became friends with, that pushed and challenged me.
Matt Domyancic: So
Matt Domyancic: I think I went hopeful, hey, anytime with Father Jim is awesome.
Matt Domyancic: Soak that up.
Matt Domyancic: And will I find community in this space?
Matt Domyancic: Was there anything you were fearing, though, heading into the rites?
Matt Domyancic: No, because I don't have a problem being vulnerable, Brian.
Matt Domyancic: So, like, that type of stuff doesn't I think a lot of men on any of these things
Matt Domyancic: Their fear is like, holy shit, I'm going to have to share part of my story or share my feelings in front of other men.
Matt Domyancic: That's so hard.
Matt Domyancic: And that's not a problem with me.
Matt Domyancic: Like, I'm sentimental.
Matt Domyancic: I'll cry watching movies or walking down the street.
Matt Domyancic: Seeing two old people holding hands or whatever.
Matt Domyancic: So I'm not scared of sharing my emotions, the things, and I wouldn't want to talk about all of it since people don't know what it is when they go on it.
Matt Domyancic: The types of things they do to try to challenge you there are just not things that were challenging for me based on my previous life experiences.
Brian Mueller: I understand that, but how did you feel after the right?
Brian Mueller: So you're there for four nights, you know, parts of five days.
Brian Mueller: It's a significant amount of time and investment.
Brian Mueller: What did you come away with?
Brian Mueller: What did you leave feeling like?
Brian Mueller: An initial frustration, and then I went home.
Matt Domyancic: And back then, I got to see Father Jim once a week because he was still teaching at Loyal to Mary Mountain.
Matt Domyancic: I was still a grad student there.
Matt Domyancic: So I would, well, I saw it more.
Matt Domyancic: I'd see them in classes, but I'd do spiritual direction every week.
Matt Domyancic: I'd go for an hour or two of office hours.
Matt Domyancic: I usually couldn't get to because so many other students wanted to see him, so I couldn't hog it all.
Matt Domyancic: But I would write reflection papers after retreats we did together.
Matt Domyancic: And what I did was wrote a very and I do this even now for my psychiatrist analyst.
Matt Domyancic: As I go through my daily experiences, it's almost like the A Nation spiritual exam, and I journal about it and then I send it to my psychiatrist.
Matt Domyancic: So by the time I go up for therapy, he's already caught up on my week.
Matt Domyancic: I did that with Father Jim.
Matt Domyancic: I did that with Father Hurley, my previous spiritual director.
Matt Domyancic: So I self-reflected on my experience at MROP and then came in to see Father Jim that next week.
Matt Domyancic: And I puckered up because I was like, damn, I was really honest.
Matt Domyancic: And I know some of these people in Illumina have been his friends for years, if not decades.
Matt Domyancic: And I was really honest, not as far as being critical, but just like, this is my read on them, my impression where some of them are unconscious of their own areas they need to work on and where they're to some degree, quote, getting their rocks off.
Matt Domyancic: on fixing and helping others.
Matt Domyancic: And then as Father Jim's reading it, I'm getting puckered up.
Matt Domyancic: Oh my God, maybe I shouldn't have been too honest.
Matt Domyancic: I have such a good relationship with Father Jim, and now I'm being critical of Illuman and friends of his.
Matt Domyancic: But he read through it, then he just kind of chuckled and, you know, said, Matt, great read.
Matt Domyancic: I've known some of these guys all the way back to
Matt Domyancic: Going to seminary, and you nailed all of it.
Matt Domyancic: So, hey, if you've already been initiated in certain ways, you don't need a redo.
Matt Domyancic: And you've been lucky enough to have your father and so many other people in life experiences where you learned these lessons that the MROP is initiating other men with.
Matt Domyancic: So yeah, you just you didn't need a redo on that.
Brian Mueller: So it's been about 10 years since you made your rites.
Brian Mueller: What have you taken away from that experience, especially now that you've got a little bit of distance?
Matt Domyancic: The fact that I think it is still so valuable for most men to go and attempt to do something like that
Matt Domyancic: And not hopefully not listen to me and see, like, you know what?
Matt Domyancic: See, I don't need to go on one of these men's retreats.
Matt Domyancic: I, too, have done my work.
Matt Domyancic: I, too.
Matt Domyancic: Have had mentors and elders.
Matt Domyancic: We have a good way of playing mental gymnastics to avoid the type of work that we really need.
Matt Domyancic: And I think that the MROP
Matt Domyancic: Compared to some of the other ones I've had exposure to, even including the first responder and veteran initiations, and they call them different things, where I would want
Matt Domyancic: First responders and veterans to be able to go to an MROP to be exposed to those teachings, if it's say Father Jim.
Matt Domyancic: Right.
Matt Domyancic: Somebody that I know that they might feel seen and safe with.
Matt Domyancic: But I think it's such a valuable thing, and I have to not be as
Matt Domyancic: I joke that I'm a judgmental prick that other men haven't had the opportunities that I've had, and there's such a need.
Matt Domyancic: For the opportunity.
Matt Domyancic: And even now, like psychedelics are so big, especially for veterans and first responders.
Matt Domyancic: But there's a lot of, they don't do work.
Matt Domyancic: You go trip your balls off and then you share.
Matt Domyancic: I would want men to do work in community and one-on-one therapy, spiritual direction, and go on an MROP before they go on a psychedelic retreat.
Matt Domyancic: And to do that without substances or maybe a forced spiritual experience.
Matt Domyancic: And I think an MROP would give you training wheels.
Matt Domyancic: To maximize, say, even if you did decide down the road to do something like a psychedelic retreat, because there's no one and done.
Matt Domyancic: The MROP is not going to initiate you just like psychedelics.
Matt Domyancic: or five sessions of the EMDR or pick your poison.
Matt Domyancic: Nothing is going to make it a one and done.
Matt Domyancic: You're cured, you're healed, and you're enlightened for the rest of your life.
Matt Domyancic: And I think the MROP
Matt Domyancic: I continue to believe the MROP has more rich substance in the areas that men need the most than my exposure to other men's groups.
Brian Mueller: You've had a rich depth of experience.
Brian Mueller: You knew Jim Clarke going into this retreat, the men's rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: You've read Father Richard's stuff.
Brian Mueller: You no doubt met him and read Adam's Return, among other books.
Brian Mueller: So you had a really good sense of what you were about to experience.
Brian Mueller: What though did anything change in you in in your own views of initiation, of masculinity, of even spirituality from that experience?
Matt Domyancic: I can't say that anything did.
Matt Domyancic: And just to be super fair, I have legally gone on some of these psychedelic retreats with other veterans and first responders, even though I don't even drink alcohol.
Matt Domyancic: I've never smoked weed.
Matt Domyancic: I wanted to see what that was all about and did a lot of research.
Matt Domyancic: And I've done some of the different medicines out there, and then I would get done.
Matt Domyancic: And a veteran would be like, So are you changed?
Matt Domyancic: And I'm like,
Matt Domyancic: No.
Matt Domyancic: And what that medicine did, and I'll say the medicine is unconditional love.
Matt Domyancic: And I've experienced unconditional love
Matt Domyancic: And the presence of God in my language, or peace, even during pain and adversity and storms, through the appropriate healthy relationships.
Matt Domyancic: Through consistent meditation and contemplative practices, through these other silent retreats and nature trips.
Matt Domyancic: And even sensory deprivation, float tanks, and being in spiritual direction and being in therapy, some of the same type of peace or the release of unconscious material.
Matt Domyancic: Because you can go to an MROP and part of it is co-regulation, where you can calm down your physiology and a community of like-minded men, and you have some other men role modeling being vulnerable.
Matt Domyancic: And that allows you, hopefully, to take the chance to be vulnerable and to expose yourself in a way that you find out you're not the only one that has experienced some of these universal themes of suffering.
Matt Domyancic: And that can be so transformative and allow for emotional sobriety and an increase in consciousness.
Matt Domyancic: And so I haven't found the retreats that work for me retreats
Matt Domyancic: Or if I the 10 days silent retreats with no phones, no books, no nothing, or say like some of these Canada trips with my dad.
Matt Domyancic: We've been stranded in the wilderness and snow or rainstorms where the guide can't pick us up, and we don't know if we're going to make it out, and we're going to get hypothermia because we can't start a fire.
Matt Domyancic: Some of those things have been like spiritual experiences.
Matt Domyancic: Beyond what I've had on any type of men's work, first responder, veteran retreats.
Matt Domyancic: And yet, I have to continue to recognize that other people
Matt Domyancic: Are not going to have those trips with my father, their own father, or have a father Jim as a spiritual director for ten years, or the father Hurley.
Matt Domyancic: Who's the director of spiritual formation in Rome at a seminary?
Matt Domyancic: That's who I had before Father Jim.
Matt Domyancic: So I've just been fortunate and blessed.
Matt Domyancic: To have the mentors, the elders, and the peers throughout my life.
Matt Domyancic: And also to where when I went to football camp or prisoner of war, SWAT schools, sniper schools.
Matt Domyancic: Yeah, because a lot of other men go through those.
Matt Domyancic: I went in them with the intention to grow spiritually.
Matt Domyancic: It wasn't me trying to get external validation for being a football player or SWAT guy.
Matt Domyancic: And even my experience in the immersion of suffering of others as a police officer was me feeling through
Matt Domyancic: Discernment that that's where God wanted me.
Matt Domyancic: So, all of those experiences in my life didn't break me down.
Matt Domyancic: They were spiritual experiences or post-traumatic growth.
Matt Domyancic: where I grew deeper in my faith through the exposure of other people's suffering and my own suffering.
Matt Domyancic: But I had an orientation of the lessons that Illuman tries to teach men.
Matt Domyancic: I had them going into all my other life experiences.
Matt Domyancic: So, I wasn't as confused.
Matt Domyancic: And this is what I try to teach spawners and veterans, even if you have some of the intellectual knowledge and spiritual practices.
Matt Domyancic: and the mentors and the peers, when the shitstorm hits, it's still going to be hard because to grow to the next level psychologically and spiritually
Matt Domyancic: you have to be overwhelmed beyond the capacity of whatever tools or perspective you have right now.
Matt Domyancic: And it's not fun and it's not pleasant.
Matt Domyancic: So don't wait until you're on your second or third divorce or you lost your job and you're struggling with alcohol to be like, maybe now I'll sign up for that MROP and maybe now I'll think about therapy or spiritual direction.
Matt Domyancic: And that's often what does happen.
Matt Domyancic: It's the crisis and the brokenness that makes men vulnerable enough to want to do something like this.
Matt Domyancic: But my heart's desire is don't wait until you're that rock bottom because it's that much harder to turn things around.
Matt Domyancic: And we all need community mentors and deeper teachings than what modern society is giving us, and especially
Matt Domyancic: These modern books and influencers on masculinity like make me want to vomit.
Matt Domyancic: They are not good teachings.
Matt Domyancic: And there's even some Netflix thing on masculinity that
Matt Domyancic: People have asked me to watch.
Matt Domyancic: I did 20 seconds of it and I was like, I can't even watch this.
Matt Domyancic: It's so unhealthy.
Matt Domyancic: So the role modeling we're getting from other men on even on LinkedIn, definitely Instagram and TV is just not healthy.
Matt Domyancic: And Illuman still has really good teachings that not just grown men, but I hope Illuman grows with its working with younger men.
Matt Domyancic: Like I know Ned right now, I couldn't go is with a bunch of 30-year-old guys in Utah.
Matt Domyancic: doing like a a vision quest.
Matt Domyancic: So, yeah, like I would love more men to have exposure to the MROP, even if it if it didn't significantly transform me in any way.
Brian Mueller: So who should go to the rites?
Brian Mueller: Who should consider this?
Matt Domyancic: Well, as it is right now, I just talked about younger men.
Matt Domyancic: Now, younger men, because this is not a biological thing.
Matt Domyancic: But if you've experienced some suffering in your life, that you realize you're possibly, if you're a person of faith, the morality rules to get to heaven to see the white bearded guy in the sky.
Matt Domyancic: They no longer work now that, you know, you're going through a divorce.
Matt Domyancic: Your child was diagnosed with autism.
Matt Domyancic: Your wife got diagnosed with breast cancer, or mom has Alzheimer, and you're the only sibling that lives close enough to help be a caretaker.
Matt Domyancic: Your work ethic, your intellectual
Matt Domyancic: Capacity to figure things out is not going to solve those problems.
Matt Domyancic: So you've started to learn by now that you've achieved success
Matt Domyancic: In your life, but the way that you achieve that success is no longer working for the problems that are coming up.
Matt Domyancic: Or even if there's like an unknown spiritual
Matt Domyancic: Thirst and yearning for something more than whatever you're getting?
Matt Domyancic: What is it like to do work on my head and my heart?
Matt Domyancic: And also, have you not had a community of men that you can be real about?
Matt Domyancic: And you're only talking about sports, sex, politics and tits and ass.
Matt Domyancic: Like guys will talk about the most superficial external things, even though it's like a man of fate.
Matt Domyancic: Or somebody that is loyal to their wife, but when they go to work or they're with their friends, people are still talking about bullshit.
Matt Domyancic: But nobody says, no, no, is anybody else stressed?
Matt Domyancic: Is anybody else struggling?
Matt Domyancic: Is anybody else thinking there's something more to life than this that we don't exactly understand?
Matt Domyancic: And nobody's given us a blueprint for this, and everybody else looks like they're happy.
Matt Domyancic: Online and at work.
Matt Domyancic: And so if you got any type of pain inside, or you're dealing with uncertainty and you don't have other men
Matt Domyancic: that it's safe to take your armor off or be vulnerable with, I would seriously consider the MROP and checking out your regional Illuman Group
Matt Domyancic: Because you have nothing to lose, really.
Matt Domyancic: Like, it's not dangerous, right?
Matt Domyancic: You could, maybe you go, and like me, you're like, ah, maybe I already sort of knew this stuff, but it's.
Matt Domyancic: very likely you haven't had a lot of the experiences or done the type of work I've done.
Matt Domyancic: So you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Matt Domyancic: And I do know that these different
Matt Domyancic: All types of men's work out there, but definitely a lumen.
Matt Domyancic: There's people that I haven't seen for 10 or 15 years that I saw on the silent retreat that we recently did.
Matt Domyancic: And it's like a day hasn't passed almost like they're old friends because there's something different about the friendships built on the contemplative fellowship.
Matt Domyancic: I don't know if every illumined man would want me using that word.
Matt Domyancic: but the contemplative fellowship that's authentic around what's going on in your head, in your heart, in your spiritual life, in ways that maybe organized religion no longer meets that need for you.
Matt Domyancic: but you're still curious, then I think Illuman and the MROP would be very worthwhile.
Matt Domyancic: And we can't give away that which we do not possess for ourselves.
Matt Domyancic: Men want to be protectors, providers and fixers, but
Matt Domyancic: Often their well goes dry and they can't give their family, their friends, or their coworkers a drink of water.
Matt Domyancic: Take your foot off the gas, commit to an MROP.
Matt Domyancic: Where you're going to do some self-exploration, and most likely it's not going to be comfortable.
Matt Domyancic: Like this is not comfortable and easy for most men.
Matt Domyancic: Like the doing the harder things is no longer like in my world, people are still in their 50s posting up their workout, their cold plunge, their sauna, their strict meal.
Matt Domyancic: That is not doing harder things.
Matt Domyancic: Going to an MROP or going to a sound bath with your partner or going to a meditation or breath work class or leaving your phone at home and spending four hours
Matt Domyancic: Sitting by a lake.
Matt Domyancic: That's the doing harder things to deal with what's coming up from within.
Matt Domyancic: And there's with every one of us, there's something unconscious, most likely from your childhood.
Matt Domyancic: Previous relationship patterns that are unhealed wounds that you're not even aware of, and you're not going to be aware of them unless you do something like the MROP.
Matt Domyancic: and other work on your own too.
Matt Domyancic: So there's work you have to do alone, and then there's work you have to do in community.
Matt Domyancic: And I think the MROP is a good way to do some of that work.
Matt Domyancic: or have some of that emotional sobriety happen in community.
Matt Domyancic: And then maybe you go home and stay connected to your men's group, but also look into therapy or spiritual direction.
Matt Domyancic: Or yoga, Tai Chi, Qi Gong, journaling.
Matt Domyancic: There's a lot of different ways to do nervous system regulation and self-reflection.
Brian Mueller: But who shouldn't come to a men's rites of passage?
Matt Domyancic: Don't come if you think you already know it all and you have arrived and you ain't got shit to work on.
Matt Domyancic: Like, if you don't have the intention to grow or even
Matt Domyancic: Even a slight opening that maybe I'll see what this feels like and be vulnerable.
Matt Domyancic: Like, if you're not going to be honest, like I talk about this, you can go to therapy.
Matt Domyancic: and not be honest with your therapist, it's not doing anything for you.
Matt Domyancic: And I know people that go to therapy and they're not honest with their therapist.
Matt Domyancic: So how much can that help you?
Matt Domyancic: You have to have the willingness to potentially be vulnerable with other men, or even if you're not going to be vulnerable with the other men when you're in council and group.
Matt Domyancic: There are times where you spend some time alone in nature.
Matt Domyancic: Are you willing to be honest with yourself?
Matt Domyancic: And are you willing to really like?
Matt Domyancic: I don't know.
Matt Domyancic: Do they when I went, smartphones weren't as much a thing, but I would hope that you're willing to say, I'm going to turn my phone off.
Matt Domyancic: I'm going to leave my phone in the car.
Matt Domyancic: And I'm going to tell everybody that I'm unplugged for these four or five days, and I'm really going to focus on myself, whatever that may look like.
Matt Domyancic: So if you're not willing to commit, because then you're not helping the other men that are there too on this similar journey.
Matt Domyancic: So, if you're a know-it-all, if you're already enlightened, if you feel like you have nothing to work on and you're not willing to be open to the potential of being vulnerable, if you feel safe.
Matt Domyancic: You do need to feel safe with the other men there, whether in your group or whoever's the staff.
Matt Domyancic: But don't go if you're not, you don't have the intentions to grow.
Matt Domyancic: I think that would be my answer.
Brian Mueller: What's the case for people that are first responders that work in the communities that you're familiar with from your work as a police officer, a soldier, football player, all those sorts of things?
Brian Mueller: What's the case for them to participate?
Matt Domyancic: I have told some of them to please go check out their regional group.
Matt Domyancic: Because right, like at Awaken, I met people that were not broadcasting their politics, that were not virtue signaling.
Matt Domyancic: And again, I think these are sweet men that I get along with, the ones
Matt Domyancic: some of them doing it.
Matt Domyancic: I'm in Southern California, so most of my exposure has been in an area that's so politically driven that it's it bleeds over into the Illuman stuff.
Matt Domyancic: And I just know that if a cop or a vet shows up, and even Richard Rohr, who I love, I love Richard Rohr, and not in his books, but you watch a live talk with Oprah or a podcast, and he'll go off
Matt Domyancic: on Trump and start getting upset about that.
Matt Domyancic: So if a cop, a firefighter, a vet, or even a moderately conservative corporate America guy shows up,
Matt Domyancic: And then it turns into anti-Trump and DEI issues, then guys are going to be like, screw this, men's work is not for me.
Matt Domyancic: And then they may never
Matt Domyancic: Go back and try it again.
Matt Domyancic: So, if you're a first responder, a veteran, somebody with a high warrior archetype, like go check out your group and see if you feel safe and comfortable.
Matt Domyancic: And I would still challenge you if you're secure enough in yourself.
Matt Domyancic: As a first responder or veteran, even if you know it's going to be political, if you've done enough work on yourself
Matt Domyancic: To not get triggered around some of the flagpole planning there might be, would you still be willing to go
Matt Domyancic: And filter and sift through that there's going to be some men here that aren't worried about that.
Matt Domyancic: There could be a weaver, a mentor, an elder that I can learn from.
Matt Domyancic: And it's still
Matt Domyancic: useful to consider going to MROP because the other retreats for first responders and veterans that I don't advise, if they're attached to faith, they're often very strong, like on this aggressive
Matt Domyancic: Tribal Jesus, make Jesus great again.
Matt Domyancic: So it's attached to Trump and politics in another way that I don't find is useful.
Matt Domyancic: It's like polar opposites being dualistic.
Matt Domyancic: And they also still like crawl in the mud and spray cold water and shoot guns and scream at you to be a better father, husband, and entrepreneur.
Matt Domyancic: That's ramping up the nervous system.
Matt Domyancic: It's initiating the unhealthy aspects of the warrior.
Matt Domyancic: That, if you're entering the second half of life, as we would say, that part of the warrior needs to be the loyal soldiers that you discharge.
Matt Domyancic: rather than go on a retreat and then get tribaled around, quote, doing hard things like the workouts and saying we're going to be better husbands and fathers by working out more and cold plunging more and shooting machine guns, all things that I
Matt Domyancic: Actually, enjoy, right?
Matt Domyancic: So I don't want people to think Matt's not it.
Matt Domyancic: I enjoy and implement these things into my life, most of them, but with a
Matt Domyancic: With a completely different intention, and I don't want to go on a retreat like that.
Matt Domyancic: And I have my friends that go on the retreats, and because they don't know what they don't know, and there's some ex
Matt Domyancic: Navy SEAL or SWAT guy or guy that played in the NFL or is a CEO that's successful in the world's eyes, saying this is the way to do it, wake up at 5 a.
Matt Domyancic: m.
Matt Domyancic: , do your CrossFit Jiu-Jitsu and cold plunge.
Matt Domyancic: They, like me, at times in my life, I did martial arts, too many Bible studies, too many prayer groups, and I covered up emotional reactivity.
Matt Domyancic: rather than be me more vulnerable and sit with my pain or the uncertainty.
Matt Domyancic: So the MROP is would be healthy for high warrior archetype men.
Matt Domyancic: As long as they could go and not be triggered, if there is a participant or even a staff member that maybe talks about things that politically they don't agree with, and hey, both sides of the fence, some of the guys in Illuman should
Matt Domyancic: Spend some time with some of the conservative MAGA guys and not get triggered and try to learn from them.
Matt Domyancic: And people from my world, the vets, the first responders, and athletes.
Matt Domyancic: should go spend time at Illuman or try the MROP and see life from that perspective to the best of their ability and start seeing what we have in common with all other men and all other human beings.
Matt Domyancic: in general, and let's build bridges and points of connection rather than more divides and more hostility.
Brian Mueller: I really appreciate everything you said there.
Brian Mueller: That's a lot to think about.
Brian Mueller: I really, really want to ask this one more question, though, before we end.
Brian Mueller: And certainly our conversations could go on and on.
Brian Mueller: You bring up a lot of great stuff, Matt.
Brian Mueller: But what I want to know is, would you tell the guy that's afraid
Brian Mueller: Of going into the rites, or finds himself at the rites in a situation like yours.
Brian Mueller: Something's not working for him.
Brian Mueller: He has the opportunity at that moment to either lean in
Brian Mueller: And still get a lot out of the experience or kind of just check out completely.
Brian Mueller: But we know that a lot of it pivots from the ability of a man to kind of lean into the experience.
Brian Mueller: So you had a challenging experience with
Brian Mueller: man that was wanting to be your mentor in a way that wasn't you know, you weren't receptive to or needing.
Brian Mueller: What would you tell a guy that's that that's afraid of that situation?
Matt Domyancic: Well, as you were asking the question, what came up for me is a sports psychology lesson.
Matt Domyancic: And I don't know if it's a direct application
Matt Domyancic: But if you're an athlete before a big performance and you're anxious and you have anxiety and you have butterflies, we'll say make the butterflies
Matt Domyancic: Fly in formation.
Matt Domyancic: It's a natural reaction before some type of big event or game to have anxiety or maybe even some fears or
Matt Domyancic: Or I thought about it, the Air Force Academy, we had to jump off a ten meter platform, and I'm not much of a water guy.
Matt Domyancic: And I realized the longer I stand at the edge
Matt Domyancic: Thinking about what could go wrong or paralysis by analysis, the harder it was, like just get up there and jump off.
Matt Domyancic: None of us can do this journey alone.
Matt Domyancic: This is spiritual theology.
Matt Domyancic: This is psychological research.
Matt Domyancic: Like you cannot do this journey alone.
Matt Domyancic: You need other guys to do your healing and growing with.
Matt Domyancic: And the reason that these men's groups exist and the reason that the mental health statistics are horrific for men.
Matt Domyancic: Horrific.
Matt Domyancic: Is because people have the fear of being vulnerable.
Matt Domyancic: And if I these aren't my words, in dealing with green berets, navy seals.
Matt Domyancic: the hardcore ghetto patrol cops, firefighters, if I share my story and people will start sharing their story or their feelings about
Matt Domyancic: Something their their dad was an alcoholic and never came to their sports games.
Matt Domyancic: They've been in relationships with women that have treated them like garbage, and then they may realize it ties into something my mom didn't give me that I was seeking out and other unhealthy women.
Matt Domyancic: And they start identifying parts of their story that hurt.
Matt Domyancic: And then they're like, I'm so sorry, Matt.
Matt Domyancic: They apologize and they say, I'm being a bitch, fag, crazy, weak, or broken.
Matt Domyancic: It's such a universal thing for men to think that feeling their feelings around things that have harmed them or just were not nourishing or affirming in ways that they all need, that we all need that.
Matt Domyancic: That something's wrong with them, and that's not the case, and men will continue to suffer in silence, I think, because of the fear that you're speaking of, the fear or anxiety of somebody confronting them.
Matt Domyancic: And even if it turns out to be
Matt Domyancic: a situation like mine where it's not helpful.
Matt Domyancic: Well, hopefully you can just be like, hey, pal, this ain't helpful.
Matt Domyancic: I don't think it applies to me.
Matt Domyancic: And if you're not safe, I was safe enough to hang in there.
Matt Domyancic: Get up and leave and seek out somebody
Matt Domyancic: Either on staff, or there's going to be somebody most likely in your council.
Matt Domyancic: I got something in common with that guy, and I like what he said.
Matt Domyancic: And maybe I'm not even ready to share it with them.
Matt Domyancic: But I'm going to hang out with that guy more and listen to his story because it resonates with mine.
Matt Domyancic: And I've seen that in men's work too, where the guy may not open up
Matt Domyancic: On the MROP or a particular retreat.
Matt Domyancic: But after they go home, there's going to be a guy in that group that he sends a text or an email.
Matt Domyancic: Or if they live close enough, he's going to get coffee with.
Matt Domyancic: And he still may not tell them for two or three months.
Matt Domyancic: Three months down the road, he says, You said something at the MROP that relates to my story that I haven't told anybody about ever.
Matt Domyancic: And now I feel safe enough to share it with you.
Matt Domyancic: So even if you have anxiety, they don't force you to share, right?
Matt Domyancic: So you can go.
Matt Domyancic: And like you said, some men may not fully participate, but it still could be beneficial to see other men that drop their guard.
Matt Domyancic: And share some of their stories and have vulnerability.
Matt Domyancic: And if there's one guy there that you end up respecting and connecting with, that's worth it.
Brian Mueller: Brother, thank you so much.
Brian Mueller: I want to tell you that, you know, I have I'm one of those guys that has a really strong inner critic.
Brian Mueller: And to be honest with you, you know, if I had met you 10 years ago, I would have been just terrified of you because you embody to me almost what my
Brian Mueller: Inner critic.
Brian Mueller: If he was a person, I would imagine him looking like, you know, big muscled guy.
Brian Mueller: He's been through the boot camp and training.
Brian Mueller: He speaks with authority and just, you know, very strong.
Brian Mueller: But I've come to know you over the last
Brian Mueller: It's only been about six months or so, maybe less than a year.
Brian Mueller: But I really see that you embody what it means to be a mature man.
Brian Mueller: And I also know that your soul is very much about helping and healing others.
Brian Mueller: In as much as it's about your own journey, and I'm very grateful.
Brian Mueller: So thank you so much.
Matt Domyancic: Likewise, Brian, it was awesome to meet you in person.
Matt Domyancic: The emails, and hey, guys, out there, if you don't
Matt Domyancic: Something else that I think is healthy is like I send an email to somebody like Brian and other men in Illuman.
Matt Domyancic: I get a very
Matt Domyancic: Like significant could be a two or three page where we're sharing our life stories over emails.
Matt Domyancic: I have a Navy SEAL buddy
Matt Domyancic: Former SEAL, we leave voice text memos almost every day doing what me and you do with our emails.
Matt Domyancic: And even though me and you don't email every day,
Matt Domyancic: And that is part of what is so beautiful is to have other men to share parts of our journey with and find those points of connection
Matt Domyancic: And right away, even though initially my emails to Illuman Leadership, for guys out there that don't know, I've been somewhat critical of them not being open to the warrior archetype.
Matt Domyancic: And some people maybe got my emails and are like, God, this guy might be a dick.
Matt Domyancic: I don't know.
Matt Domyancic: But in person, it's like open arms, big hugs.
Matt Domyancic: Totally vibing out with positive energy in ways that inspired me.
Matt Domyancic: And now I, it made me want to keep going back to Awaken every year and continue to grow with the men in Illuman, even if
Matt Domyancic: It may not be the place yet where my ex-Navy SEAL and Green Bray and SWAT buddies are like, that seems appealing to me.
Matt Domyancic: It's still a place if you want to do the deeper journey where men are being vulnerable.
Matt Domyancic: And I appreciate your email so much.
Matt Domyancic: I want you to know that.
Matt Domyancic: And sometimes I don't have the time to respond back.
Matt Domyancic: At the same level that you sent it.
Matt Domyancic: But I'm like, oh my God, I love this.
Matt Domyancic: This feeds my soul.
Matt Domyancic: So thank you.
Brian Mueller: Absolutely.
Brian Mueller: I feel the same way.
Brian Mueller: And how do people find out more about what you're doing and maybe even get in touch with you?
Matt Domyancic: My website is thetacticalchaplain dot
Matt Domyancic: com.
Matt Domyancic: I'm on LinkedIn if my last name's spelled on this episode.
Matt Domyancic: Matt Domyancic on LinkedIn.
Matt Domyancic: Not active a ton on Instagram.
Matt Domyancic: I don't post about myself, but thin blue line spirituality, thin blue line spirituality, and the tactical chaplain.
Matt Domyancic: And
Matt Domyancic: Anybody that wants to chat, please reach out.
Matt Domyancic: And even if you're not a veteran or first responder, like that's what my ministry and my nonprofit is for.
Matt Domyancic: But I want to do more bridge building.
Matt Domyancic: with people that are not first responders and veterans and actually try to share what it's like more to be a first responder and veteran in a way that a lot of civilians don't understand.
Matt Domyancic: And so how can we lean on each other
Matt Domyancic: as men from different backgrounds and all walks of life and try to grow deeper rather than more of these very emotional divides over political type things.
Matt Domyancic: So I have a
Matt Domyancic: A huge heart for wanting to connect with all kinds of men.
Matt Domyancic: So don't look at my website and think, well, I'm not a cop, a firefighter, or a vet, or a jock.
Matt Domyancic: So this doesn't apply to me.
Matt Domyancic: Like if there's something we spoke about and you want to talk about it, please send me an email.
Matt Domyancic: I'll give you my phone number and we can jump on a call.
Matt Domyancic: Thanks so much, brother.
Brian Mueller: I love you and I look forward to staying in community with you.
Brian Mueller: Love you too, brother.
Brian Mueller: For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more.
Brian Mueller: Allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites.
Brian Mueller: The men's rites of passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six.
Brian Mueller: While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since twenty twelve Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world.
Brian Mueller: To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading “Adam's Return” by Richard Rohr.
Brian Mueller: If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six.
Brian Mueller: The first is in Northern California, May thirteenth through the seventeenth, the second in the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth, and in Illinois, August twelfth through the sixteenth.
Brian Mueller: There's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth, and the final one of the year is in Texas, which is in MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth.
Brian Mueller: You can find details and registration information at Illuman dot
Brian Mueller: org slash MROP or Illuman dot
Brian Mueller: org slash events.
Brian Mueller: Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico.
Brian Mueller: You can find more at Illuman dot
Brian Mueller: org slash awaken.
Brian Mueller: Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence.
Brian Mueller: If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life.
Brian Mueller: Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence dot
Brian Mueller: org slash app.
Brian Mueller: It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today.
Brian Mueller: Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP.
Brian Mueller: Until next time, brothers, stay present.