WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:12.480 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:13.240 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:18.520 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:25.560 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:25.060 --> 00:00:33.860 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what changed afterward. 00:00:33.860 --> 00:00:35.940 Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. 00:00:35.940 --> 00:00:38.980 This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence. 00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:42.700 We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:48.860 In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:54.920 If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot 00:00:55.080 --> 00:00:56.840 org slash app. 00:00:56.740 --> 00:01:08.660 Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. 00:01:07.960 --> 00:01:12.840 On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:19.000 Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:01:25.520 --> 00:01:27.440 My guest today is Bill McElroy. 00:01:27.440 --> 00:01:28.640 Brother, I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:32.080 Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. 00:01:31.860 --> 00:01:32.580 Thanks, Brian. 00:01:32.580 --> 00:01:33.540 It's great to be here. 00:01:33.540 --> 00:01:39.380 And thank you for doing this work, too, to just get our personal experience of the men's rites of passage. 00:01:39.380 --> 00:01:42.820 Bill, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:01:42.820 --> 00:01:50.420 Well, I live in Wayne, Illinois, which is a small town outside of Chicago, about 50 miles west of Chicago. 00:01:50.220 --> 00:01:51.900 And yeah, these I'm retired. 00:01:51.980 --> 00:01:52.860 That was my career. 00:01:52.860 --> 00:01:58.780 I was a pediatric dentist for almost 40 years and been retired for five years in June. 00:01:58.780 --> 00:02:00.780 And so, yeah, since then 00:02:01.140 --> 00:02:02.820 you know, I like being outside outdoors. 00:02:02.820 --> 00:02:08.020 My wife likes uh and I like to hike and bike and and doing some traveling and things like that. 00:02:08.020 --> 00:02:15.620 And I also spend, you know, time doing this kind of w work with men's work as well through Illuman and contemplative outreach, things like that. 00:02:15.660 --> 00:02:18.060 Now let's dive in to talk about the men's rites of passage. 00:02:18.060 --> 00:02:19.820 The MROP is a unique experience. 00:02:19.820 --> 00:02:21.340 It's not a retreat or a workshop. 00:02:21.340 --> 00:02:22.540 It's an initiation. 00:02:22.540 --> 00:02:27.660 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives looking for something they can't quite name. 00:02:27.140 --> 00:02:29.780 Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. 00:02:29.780 --> 00:02:31.540 When and where did you make your rites? 00:02:31.620 --> 00:02:36.579 Made my rites in two thousand four at Ghost Ranch in New Mexico. 00:02:36.739 --> 00:02:38.420 Was one of the last ones at Ghost Ranch. 00:02:38.659 --> 00:02:41.299 He Richard was doing all of them there for a while and then 00:02:41.980 --> 00:02:46.940 I think it got too expensive until they eventually started you know, they started and then we started going into regions. 00:02:46.940 --> 00:02:51.100 But yeah, two thousand four Ghost Ranch was my where my rites. 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:53.800 I imagine Richard was your weaver, and how many men were there? 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:58.519 Yeah, Richard was the weaver, and I believe Stephen Picha, I think, was a ritual elder. 00:02:57.960 --> 00:02:58.520 I can't remember. 00:02:58.520 --> 00:02:59.960 I think it was I think he was a ritual elder. 00:02:59.960 --> 00:03:06.520 And we had quite a few wee back then it was only doing one a year, so we had like one hundred and twenty, I believe, one hundred and thirty men. 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:07.560 Pretty big group. 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:11.240 Yeah, those were really big rites in the especially at the beginning. 00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:16.040 Now, I'm going to ask you to think back to that weekend and what image comes forth when you think about your rites. 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:18.840 What image comes forth when I think about the rites? 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:21.720 I guess the biggest thing would be 00:03:22.799 --> 00:03:29.280 The formation of, you know, it's sacred time and sacred space, you know, the container of the weekend. 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:35.840 And, you know, so it wasn't any one thing, it was, you know, the totality of the experience itself. 00:03:35.540 --> 00:03:37.380 you know, entering entering into it. 00:03:37.380 --> 00:03:41.780 I mean, entering into it was one thing, and looking back on it, of course, is is is a whole different thing. 00:03:41.780 --> 00:03:47.780 But um, yeah, that was that would be the thing that really jumped out the most, you know. 00:03:47.860 --> 00:03:58.900 Now without sharing anything that you consider confidential or too personal, is there a particular memory or an encounter with another man that you had during that weekend that kind of captures what the event meant to you? 00:03:58.900 --> 00:04:01.700 Um, yeah, probably the the thing that jumped out. 00:04:01.700 --> 00:04:06.580 I mean, it was uh when I was going on to writes, I was uh going into it, I'm was uh 00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:18.720 hoping I would have like a mystical experience, you know, a real oneing-enlightenment type thing that would be it would mark, you know, this event right here, and then the rest of my life goes from that point. 00:04:18.320 --> 00:04:26.720 And while I did have many experiences, I didn't have that necessarily, you know, and maybe because I was trying to create it as it doesn't work that way, I don't think. 00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:27.600 I think these things 00:04:27.760 --> 00:04:28.960 you know, happen when they happen. 00:04:28.960 --> 00:04:30.480 The Spirit brings it when it brings it. 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:41.040 But probably the most notable thing that happened, which I was not going into the rites looking for this at all, but it was one of the days where you're working with grief. 00:04:40.440 --> 00:04:42.120 in a grief ritual. 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:50.440 And in that ritual, I just came to a point where I was it just occurred to me, just intuitively, it just occurred to me 00:04:50.740 --> 00:04:58.660 That there was some generic intergenerational father wound or pain in my patriarchal lineage 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:00.639 And it just hit me really hard. 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:04.720 I I realized right then, you know, my dad never even spoke about his grandfather. 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:07.360 My grandfather, his father died before I was born. 00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:09.280 He was quite a bit older. 00:05:08.760 --> 00:05:09.960 But it just hit me right there. 00:05:09.960 --> 00:05:11.480 He never even spoke about him. 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:13.560 And I said, There's got to be this big wound. 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:15.560 I could just feel I could just feel it. 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:18.200 And my father and I were not super close. 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:19.720 A lot of reasons for that. 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:22.200 He was, you know, worked six days a week, very busy. 00:05:22.200 --> 00:05:23.560 I was the oldest of six. 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:28.120 But in any case, I I just said, I'm not going to pass this on to my son. 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:30.120 And I said, I was angry. 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:31.400 I said, It stops with me. 00:05:31.479 --> 00:05:32.919 And I pouted my fist down. 00:05:32.919 --> 00:05:33.960 And I was in the middle. 00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:36.240 And then I just said, you know what? 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:37.919 Give me all the pain right now. 00:05:37.919 --> 00:05:39.199 I'll take all the grief. 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:43.360 I will take all the pain then right now, and we're going to end this thing. 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:46.840 And I swear, you know, I had this huge rush of energy. 00:05:46.840 --> 00:05:54.440 I can't even explain what it even felt like, but whatever it was, it dropped me to my knees and I just started sobbing right there. 00:05:54.320 --> 00:06:01.920 And like I said, I didn't there's nothing I was aware of before the rites, you know, but I've been acutely aware of it since the rites, you know. 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:05.200 And so I really worked hard on my relationship with my son, too. 00:06:05.420 --> 00:06:07.580 And which has improved greatly. 00:06:07.580 --> 00:06:09.740 You know, we did many things together after that. 00:06:09.740 --> 00:06:11.020 I made a made a point of it. 00:06:11.020 --> 00:06:14.060 I made it just so drew it to my attention, you know. 00:06:13.740 --> 00:06:14.780 Yeah, thank you for sharing that. 00:06:14.780 --> 00:06:15.820 I really appreciate it. 00:06:15.820 --> 00:06:21.900 Now, thinking back to just before the rites or to even several months before the rites, what was going on in your life? 00:06:21.900 --> 00:06:27.260 What were the circumstances that led you to decide, yeah, I want to participate in a men's rites of passage? 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:27.840 Well, I went back. 00:06:27.840 --> 00:06:31.360 It was one of these situations where something I wanted to do for a while. 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:38.240 I was introduced to Richard, it was really the one that really got brought me into it. 00:06:37.760 --> 00:06:46.880 My spiritual director, this is back in the mid-nineties spiritual, so it would have been about 10 years before when I made my rites actually, my spiritual director was saying to me, you know, sometimes when you pray 00:06:47.139 --> 00:06:47.940 Just listen. 00:06:47.940 --> 00:06:49.139 You know, don't say any words. 00:06:49.139 --> 00:06:49.540 Just listen. 00:06:50.259 --> 00:06:51.460 He didn't even use the word silence. 00:06:51.460 --> 00:06:52.180 He'd just listen. 00:06:52.180 --> 00:06:53.620 And I'm like, well, listen to what? 00:06:53.699 --> 00:06:58.180 you know, and I couldn't hear anything, you know, and uh but he'd just listen, just sit and listen. 00:06:58.180 --> 00:07:01.620 So I was fine and I was doing that in my prayer. 00:07:01.440 --> 00:07:02.640 on and off for a year. 00:07:02.640 --> 00:07:07.440 And then I was introduced to a tape series, you know, by Richard Rohr. 00:07:07.440 --> 00:07:09.120 It was Spirituality Subtraction. 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:10.800 I remember I was at a friend's house. 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:11.760 He goes, Hey, you might like this. 00:07:11.760 --> 00:07:13.360 And I listened to it. 00:07:12.960 --> 00:07:17.680 And I get the tape number three, and this is what he's talking about, is contemplative prayer in silence. 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:25.919 And he's putting a name to what you know, I had never heard that term before, in cradle Catholic, but that just contemplative prayer never came up. 00:07:25.919 --> 00:07:26.639 But it really 00:07:26.940 --> 00:07:28.140 really hooked me. 00:07:28.140 --> 00:07:33.420 And then later I I was in a bookstore and looking for some things in the children's section. 00:07:33.420 --> 00:07:37.260 My wife and I were doing some confirmation work in our parish. 00:07:36.820 --> 00:07:41.540 And somebody had laid down a tape series by Richard in the children's section. 00:07:41.540 --> 00:07:43.220 You know, didn't belong in that section. 00:07:43.220 --> 00:07:45.060 I just just happened to notice it. 00:07:45.060 --> 00:07:46.660 I thought, oh, it's the same guy. 00:07:46.660 --> 00:07:49.940 So I got to listen to this, and it was a men's retreat. 00:07:49.520 --> 00:07:55.200 And it was on the archetypes, the heroic male archetypes, lover, warrior, magician and king. 00:07:55.200 --> 00:07:59.920 And that language and symbology really just really hit a note with me. 00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:02.080 That's why I got to go to the desert with this guy. 00:08:02.080 --> 00:08:03.600 You know, and I realized 00:08:03.440 --> 00:08:07.280 After that, then the next thing was, you know, I don't have any kings in my life. 00:08:07.280 --> 00:08:09.440 I'd really notice I don't have any kings in my life. 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:11.920 I've got to change that. 00:08:11.420 --> 00:08:14.620 And so I committed to one day going to the desert. 00:08:14.940 --> 00:08:21.020 And in the meantime, then Richard developed the rites in in the middle to late nineties. 00:08:20.539 --> 00:08:25.659 And I saw that and I thought, well, I eventually have to do this and it was just a matter of when the time was right. 00:08:25.659 --> 00:08:31.180 You know, you're taking five days off, you're going away, it's expensive, leaving my wife home with the kids and all that. 00:08:31.180 --> 00:08:35.019 And so it just worked out that two thousand four was the right time for me. 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:43.440 How did the people in your life, your wife, your spiritual director, others in your community that you let know about your decision, how did they respond initially to you saying, I'm going to the rites of passage? 00:08:43.839 --> 00:08:47.279 Back then, not many people had heard about that or knew about it. 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:48.000 I think 00:08:48.420 --> 00:08:51.380 The men going off by themselves on a retreat like that. 00:08:51.380 --> 00:08:56.660 You know, there was this notion of oh, the men are all running around naked in the woods and drumming and yelling and screaming and stuff like that. 00:08:56.660 --> 00:08:57.699 And it's kind of like a 00:08:57.860 --> 00:08:59.780 I don't know, a tribal kind of a thing. 00:08:59.780 --> 00:09:02.420 It was an interesting way people looked at it. 00:09:02.420 --> 00:09:09.860 So I didn't like advertise it too much, but some of my small group that I was with, I told them they were going, have good luck, have a good retreat. 00:09:09.860 --> 00:09:10.900 It was more like 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:19.000 Assuming I think it was like a regular type retreat, I don't think the impactful nature of it was known to them at the time. 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:21.920 So yeah, so uh but my wife was supportive of it. 00:09:21.920 --> 00:09:23.839 She's in a spiritual journey herself. 00:09:23.839 --> 00:09:26.000 Like I said, she's a spiritual director. 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:33.200 And that we weren't at the time, but you know, since then we both have went in and got our master's degrees in that. 00:09:32.759 --> 00:09:38.440 So she was supportive, you know, I have to say she's a little bit like, well, what are you going to get involved in now? 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:40.600 You know, just because I have a tendency to really 00:09:41.040 --> 00:09:42.160 go away at it. 00:09:42.160 --> 00:09:49.440 And she just didn't want me like just to take off on a new adventure and leave her behind, I think, 'cause it was the men's work, it's just with the men, you know, and so 00:09:49.459 --> 00:09:55.540 There was an ad nature of it, and that still even persists to today a little bit, but generally she's very supportive of it. 00:09:55.540 --> 00:09:56.820 She knows it's good for me. 00:09:56.820 --> 00:09:56.899 So 00:09:57.420 --> 00:10:02.699 You alluded to this a little bit before in terms of like a turning point, the right rites wanting the rites to be that. 00:10:02.699 --> 00:10:08.620 But when you arrived at the rites, when you arrived at Ghost Ranch, was there something that you were hoping to be initiated into? 00:10:08.620 --> 00:10:10.380 Oh, well, that's a good question. 00:10:11.500 --> 00:10:22.060 I wasn't anything I really entered into it because the instruction is, you know, when you enter into this, go with the beginner's mind, you know, and try not and so I was trying to really guard 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:32.240 against not having an expectation of really having a beginner's mind that just allows spirit to flow and so I settle into where I'm supposed to settle in. 00:10:31.839 --> 00:10:39.279 So, I didn't have an, I really did not have an expectation aside from what I alluded to before is that I was hoping somewhere in there there would be this mystical 00:10:39.700 --> 00:10:54.019 I don't know that Jesus would appear before me or anything like that, but it would be some type of a mystical morning experience, which I with that grief ritual, that was definitely something beyond the ordinary that happened, this energy that that rushed through me and dropped me to my knees. 00:10:53.459 --> 00:10:54.820 I didn't just make that up. 00:10:54.820 --> 00:10:56.180 I mean, that happened. 00:10:56.180 --> 00:11:07.060 And so in itself, I guess we would put Coach Run and say it was of a mystical nature, certainly beyond five cents, three-dimensional, linear time world, whatever that was. 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:08.840 not what I had anticipated. 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:12.760 And that's which I think there's wisdom in that, just to go in without expectation. 00:11:12.760 --> 00:11:13.080 Yeah. 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:20.040 So I initiated into, you know, the community of men that was that would have been, you know, around the fringes. 00:11:20.040 --> 00:11:21.080 I was hoping to 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:27.360 to join this community, men that are willing to go deep, you know, and and be a man for others. 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:30.880 And so that was certainly been around the the fringe of it for sure. 00:11:30.880 --> 00:11:32.480 Trying to be careful not to get too 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:34.199 Too much of a solid expectation. 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:35.560 This is what I hope to get out of it. 00:11:35.560 --> 00:11:37.319 I don't have that much wisdom. 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:40.680 Well, conversely, was there something that did you feel some fear? 00:11:40.839 --> 00:11:44.199 Was there anything that you were concerned about heading into the rites? 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:45.880 No, at that point 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:47.840 I don't think I really had any fears. 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:49.600 I was all in going into it. 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:55.920 So I didn't really have I was really anticipatory of whatever would come, you know, and that that's kind of my nature, I guess. 00:11:55.420 --> 00:11:59.579 Yes, so you get through the the five day experience and come to the closing rituals. 00:11:59.579 --> 00:12:00.540 It's time to leave. 00:12:00.540 --> 00:12:05.259 How did you feel when you were driving off to the airport or wherever and heading back to 00:12:05.740 --> 00:12:06.860 Chicago area? 00:12:07.180 --> 00:12:14.780 Well, it was I guess it's you know, one of the things we talk about in this work is is liminality or liminal space. 00:12:14.520 --> 00:12:18.840 And it's all of a sudden you've been through this experience. 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:20.360 And that's really what it was for me. 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:25.080 It was the thing about it's not like a regular retreat, like you mentioned. 00:12:24.640 --> 00:12:36.000 It's so experiential, you know, and so it's just the whole thing, you know, the drumming, the circle, the ritual process, contemplation, all these things just create this container that you're in. 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:38.480 But it was very liminal for me. 00:12:38.520 --> 00:12:45.560 The only thing I say is that I was like I was energized and I was charged and I knew it was good. 00:12:45.560 --> 00:12:47.800 I knew I could trust it. 00:12:47.140 --> 00:12:49.380 And I knew it was something that was needed. 00:12:49.380 --> 00:12:55.380 Even I got the airport and on the plane, I was just thinking to myself, this has to go on. 00:12:55.380 --> 00:12:58.740 We have to bring this to I'm from Illinois. 00:12:58.640 --> 00:13:01.040 So we have to bring this back to our region. 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:03.200 I have to do something. 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:07.040 It's not something I can just like, oh, that was a great experience and check that off. 00:13:07.040 --> 00:13:09.680 I knew that this had to somehow continue. 00:13:09.680 --> 00:13:12.720 And that was right there from the beginning for me. 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:16.560 You know, it's been more than twenty years since you did the Rites of Passage. 00:13:16.560 --> 00:13:26.160 What has changed in your life, practically, relationally, spiritually, in these twenty years, in part perhaps because of the rites? 00:13:25.640 --> 00:13:30.920 Well, I would say spiritually for sure, it was just part of the process. 00:13:30.920 --> 00:13:33.720 I'd been on the spiritual journey for 00:13:34.760 --> 00:13:36.120 quite some time. 00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:43.000 I kind of had, I won't say a midlife crisis, but kind of a it's not one crisis that I have. 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:44.040 I had an earlier one. 00:13:44.040 --> 00:13:46.680 My father died when I was twenty nine. 00:13:46.339 --> 00:13:57.940 And there were several events for about a three-year period that were kind of impactful events where things were going south and were not going the way I thought they should go, you know, being a good 00:13:58.660 --> 00:14:09.220 Catholic boy and obeying all the rules and doing things right, why is all this stuff, you know, the proverbial, you know, SH One T hitting the fan? 00:14:09.220 --> 00:14:10.020 You know? 00:14:09.940 --> 00:14:12.580 In my life, and I'm like, what's going on here? 00:14:12.580 --> 00:14:19.140 So I got kind of got started on this adult journey right at the very end of my twenties and early thirties. 00:14:19.140 --> 00:14:19.700 And so 00:14:20.420 --> 00:14:27.220 So I've been on the journey for a while, but it was convoluted when it, but coming off of the rites, God just became 00:14:28.020 --> 00:14:35.940 More personal, not as much of God is other out there somewhere that I would relate to, like as a second person type of a thing. 00:14:35.940 --> 00:14:36.420 It was 00:14:36.640 --> 00:14:38.080 getting more personal than that. 00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:40.880 Not just like a Jesus and me thing that like that. 00:14:40.880 --> 00:14:42.240 It wasn't like that at all. 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:45.360 It was more, I don't know. 00:14:45.220 --> 00:14:49.140 There was more of an inner experience with God. 00:14:49.220 --> 00:14:51.540 This became more personal than that. 00:14:51.540 --> 00:14:53.940 It's harder to to describe, actually. 00:14:54.260 --> 00:14:54.580 But 00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:57.880 But in any case, it did hi it was impactful in that regard. 00:14:57.880 --> 00:15:03.959 And I one of the things I learned in this process of the rites and processing it afterwards was 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:07.760 Beginning to trust my own experience of things, you know. 00:15:07.760 --> 00:15:12.320 So, not so much outer authority as, you know, beginning to. 00:15:12.740 --> 00:15:16.740 Develop a little bit of my own inner authority on that. 00:15:16.740 --> 00:15:20.580 Not that I'm certainly not the end to all of any of everything, but 00:15:20.940 --> 00:15:25.020 You know, it was different than just being totally everything out outer. 00:15:25.020 --> 00:15:29.340 It was more of a combination of inner and outer for me. 00:15:28.560 --> 00:15:30.160 Hard to describe that. 00:15:30.160 --> 00:15:30.800 Yeah. 00:15:30.800 --> 00:15:37.680 How did the rites impact your ideas about masculinity, initiation, even the male journey? 00:15:38.139 --> 00:15:51.819 Well, first of all, it helped me to see when I was with all these spiritual generative men coming together and doing their work with each other in small group and in a large group and a ritual process, all that. 00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:56.440 I really could see to me what a healthy masculinity looked like. 00:15:56.440 --> 00:16:01.560 You know, I mentioned the archetypes before, you know, the king archetype that had no kings. 00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:07.560 you know, there were there were kings there and magicians there, there were mature men there, and you could feel the difference. 00:16:07.560 --> 00:16:14.120 And so that kind of like highlighted when you when I would see like what we would call and there seems to be 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:24.440 A lot of that going around right now, the toxic Max Masculine, it really stood out, you know, and I could really so it really changed my whole idea of 00:16:24.459 --> 00:16:30.060 You know, the goal as a king is you have, you know, spiritual energy, but you have an overflow of energy to be a man for others. 00:16:30.060 --> 00:16:34.540 So you're not there just for yourself and trying to, you know, get me to heaven. 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:38.040 And it's just being there to support other others on that same journey. 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:40.920 We're all in it together type of a thing. 00:16:40.920 --> 00:16:44.680 That that why that's what I would say as far as masculinity goes. 00:16:44.680 --> 00:16:47.160 You know, and you know, it's not that in our culture 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:50.720 It was at least especially we're as a boomer. 00:16:50.880 --> 00:17:01.360 John Wayne w or Rambo would have been, you know, the images that we were given when we were young, we were growing up, you know, a little messy, I'm right across Apache territory for you. 00:17:01.700 --> 00:17:02.180 Yeah. 00:17:02.180 --> 00:17:10.820 So the whole image of masculinity that was kind of embedded in me really had a shift at that time and since then. 00:17:10.439 --> 00:17:13.720 Bill, you're somebody I remember from my rites of passage. 00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:14.519 You were there. 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:18.839 You've been at many rites of passage as a teaching elder. 00:17:18.460 --> 00:17:21.500 assisting with ritual, just supporting the rites in general. 00:17:21.500 --> 00:17:26.700 I think you've been there almost every time they've done it in Illinois, except perhaps one year you were sick. 00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:28.940 But let me ask you what 00:17:29.320 --> 00:17:30.520 Why do you keep coming back? 00:17:30.520 --> 00:17:32.520 Why do you keep coming back to the rites? 00:17:32.840 --> 00:17:38.840 Like I was saying before, just being part of that process, because I know what it can do for a man and how 00:17:39.740 --> 00:17:45.740 So many people over the years, just they talk about the experience that they've had, the totality of the experience. 00:17:45.740 --> 00:17:49.420 It hits different men in different ways in different places. 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:50.800 It's just miraculous to watch that. 00:17:50.800 --> 00:17:52.400 So there there's that aspect of it. 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:57.040 It's just the satisfaction you get where sometimes you can just see some of these things unfolding. 00:17:57.040 --> 00:18:02.240 Maybe even that the man can't even see himself, but it's just like, ooh, you know, oh, yeah. 00:18:02.220 --> 00:18:05.180 And that's a real positive aspect of it. 00:18:05.180 --> 00:18:08.700 And then there's the logistical side of it is there has to be somebody there. 00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:12.460 There has to be a body there, you know, to set up chairs. 00:18:11.940 --> 00:18:22.260 you know, and to you know, to bring men into the circle, to gather men, you know, try to get them to you know settle into the space, to create the sacred container and and that type of a thing. 00:18:22.260 --> 00:18:22.899 It's so 00:18:23.340 --> 00:18:33.980 Crucial to the rites is to do that, is that draw yourself out of that outer world, the busyness of it, and all that, you know, and just bring it all in for that container. 00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:40.120 So there's a logistical part of that, of of being the body that's there doing those things. 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:42.840 That that's a necessary thing, you know. 00:18:43.340 --> 00:18:45.980 But the enjoyment of it is a is a big part of it too. 00:18:45.980 --> 00:18:51.020 You know, seeing the process right before you, laying out right before you that you went through at one time. 00:18:51.460 --> 00:18:52.340 Yeah, I really hear you. 00:18:52.340 --> 00:19:00.900 In some of my previous conversations, especially some of the ones I've had more recently, one of the things that comes up is that how supportive 00:19:01.160 --> 00:19:08.600 The men are that put on the rites, and how some men may have had some trepidation coming into this about what the experience would be like, but 00:19:08.740 --> 00:19:15.940 they haven't experienced that sort of love and care and tenderness from other men before in their lives. 00:19:16.260 --> 00:19:23.220 That along with the possibility for transformation that exists in that space, it is it's a beautiful thing. 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:24.040 Yeah. 00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:25.000 I'm going through it. 00:19:25.320 --> 00:19:34.040 Each individual has their own process, their own thing they're working through, and you're going through it with other men, may have different issues, but you're all going through it together. 00:19:34.360 --> 00:19:35.000 So it's that 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:44.360 Process, you know, the communal immersion nature of it and the experiential nature of it going through it together, you know, makes such a difference when you're going through it with summer. 00:19:44.360 --> 00:19:45.640 I mean, camaraderie makes 00:19:45.760 --> 00:19:48.559 Such a difference when you're going through difficult times like that. 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:50.720 I did found that in my past. 00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:58.400 Just if you know somebody else that is suffering, you happen to be suffering from something, just walking shoulder to shoulder, walking almost breaks down. 00:19:58.060 --> 00:20:00.700 almost brings tears in my eyes right now. 00:20:00.700 --> 00:20:06.220 It's you know, walking shoulder to shoulder with somebody through that, you totally different issues. 00:20:06.220 --> 00:20:06.860 It doesn't matter. 00:20:06.860 --> 00:20:08.380 You're just you're just with somebody. 00:20:08.620 --> 00:20:10.060 You're not alone. 00:20:09.840 --> 00:20:12.240 And then the community nature of it, you belong. 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:13.840 You belong. 00:20:14.080 --> 00:20:15.039 It's powerful. 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:24.320 Our Illuman community is celebrating thirty years since the first rites of passage, formal rites of passage in the New Mexico desert out there in at Ghost Ranch. 00:20:24.340 --> 00:20:28.260 What I'd like to ask you, I mean, you've been around for quite a significant part of that time. 00:20:28.260 --> 00:20:33.059 How have the rites changed and evolved in your estimation or what you've seen? 00:20:32.740 --> 00:20:38.020 Well, certainly going from the one time a year at Ghost Ranch to the regions. 00:20:38.020 --> 00:20:40.900 The regions were just getting started right around the time. 00:20:40.900 --> 00:20:44.980 In fact, I think at my rice, it was the first or second rice where 00:20:45.320 --> 00:20:47.320 Richard wasn't doing all the teaching. 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:52.920 We had teaching elders, men that have been through the rites come in as teaching elders. 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:57.480 There's three teachings that are given like that over the five days. 00:20:56.940 --> 00:21:04.860 So that was one of the one of the changes, and some of those men were actually given and then Richard would come out afterwards and just nuance a little bit, fill the gaps. 00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:09.120 But now there's more of a regional flavor to these things. 00:21:09.120 --> 00:21:14.720 And each region is different as far as what's just the environment that you're in. 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:17.679 In the Midwest, here are no mountains. 00:21:17.140 --> 00:21:21.140 biggest thing we got floating around here would be like a a large anthill, maybe. 00:21:21.140 --> 00:21:25.540 You know, so it's just it's just a different environment as far as that 00:21:25.560 --> 00:21:30.680 But the essence of it, I think, is the essence of it is still there. 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:39.800 And it has to necessarily change when it went from Richard eventually he would come when the region was having their first rites. 00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:40.680 he would come and do those rites. 00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:43.400 He did that for us at our two thousand eight rites. 00:21:43.400 --> 00:21:44.520 You know, he was there. 00:21:44.520 --> 00:21:48.440 But then after that it was we had other weavers that would that would come in. 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:51.480 And each weaver, you know, brings their gifts. 00:21:50.840 --> 00:21:55.559 You know, but the essence, it really done a really good job of keeping the essence there. 00:21:55.559 --> 00:21:58.919 And there's been a decided commitment and effort. 00:21:58.540 --> 00:22:00.140 to keep that there. 00:22:00.380 --> 00:22:01.580 Things have changed a little bit. 00:22:01.580 --> 00:22:06.620 Some of the, you know, there'll be some nuancing to some of the rituals as time and culture change. 00:22:06.620 --> 00:22:09.900 But that essence, though, is still there. 00:22:09.900 --> 00:22:12.860 And so I find this pretty remarkable. 00:22:12.860 --> 00:22:14.300 One of the things I like about it. 00:22:15.179 --> 00:22:16.620 I'm going to try something different now. 00:22:16.620 --> 00:22:23.899 I would like to read a poem that I became aware of from something I read or something I listened to that Father Richard had done. 00:22:23.899 --> 00:22:24.539 And it's by D. 00:22:24.539 --> 00:22:24.779 H. 00:22:24.779 --> 00:22:25.260 Lawrence. 00:22:25.260 --> 00:22:28.460 It's called - or it's referred to as “Healing”, I believe. 00:22:28.060 --> 00:22:29.340 I'm going to read this poem. 00:22:29.500 --> 00:22:38.220 I think it speaks a little bit to what brings a man to the men's rites of passage or to the point where they might benefit some from initiation. 00:22:38.220 --> 00:22:42.620 But I'm going to read it and I'm going to ask you to comment and see if there's anything that resonates with you. 00:22:42.260 --> 00:22:43.380 It's called “Healing”. 00:22:43.380 --> 00:22:52.020 I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections, and it is not because this mechanism is working wrongly that I am ill. 00:22:51.820 --> 00:23:04.620 I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self, and the wounds to the soul take a long, long time only time can help and patience and a certain difficult repentance. 00:23:04.460 --> 00:23:16.060 long, difficult repentance, realization of life's mistake, and the freeing of oneself from the endless repetition of the mistake which mankind at large has chosen to sanctify. 00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:20.720 I have not heard that poem, but I love it. 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:21.360 And D. 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:21.600 H. 00:23:21.760 --> 00:23:25.520 Lawrence was he was a good, excellent poet. 00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:36.600 Yeah, I would say that directly applies to what a lot of what's going on with the rites and with the inner work in preparing for the rites, the rites themselves, and what goes on afterwards. 00:23:36.040 --> 00:23:38.360 you know, the soul is wounded in many ways. 00:23:38.360 --> 00:23:42.280 We each have our own woundings in our life experience, you know. 00:23:42.280 --> 00:23:46.520 And as I mentioned, part of my experience was the intergenerational 00:23:46.940 --> 00:23:48.860 nature of some of that that father wound. 00:23:48.860 --> 00:23:51.899 You know, certainly I experienced it wasn't really a father wound. 00:23:51.899 --> 00:23:54.220 My dad was a a good dad, a good man. 00:23:54.220 --> 00:23:55.659 It was more father hunger. 00:23:55.659 --> 00:23:57.740 He was he was emotionally 00:23:58.700 --> 00:23:59.580 Kind of distant. 00:23:59.580 --> 00:24:04.060 You know, he was an alcoholic, which I didn't really know until after I had actually moved out of the house. 00:24:04.060 --> 00:24:04.940 It was came later. 00:24:04.940 --> 00:24:06.380 But he wasn't, you know, violent. 00:24:06.380 --> 00:24:08.060 He was just numbing himself. 00:24:08.060 --> 00:24:11.100 So I experienced that personally. 00:24:11.340 --> 00:24:12.299 What is his experience? 00:24:12.460 --> 00:24:16.299 That's one of the things that helps you look back and say, Well, I wonder what his experience was. 00:24:16.299 --> 00:24:19.019 So, one of the things that happens with all this work is 00:24:19.320 --> 00:24:25.880 An expansion of your perspectives, able to see various perspectives, not just your own. 00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:27.880 And that soul work does take a long time. 00:24:27.880 --> 00:24:29.880 It doesn't just pop out. 00:24:29.660 --> 00:24:38.780 Some of the woundings that happen to us are really from early childhood that we're not even aware of, and they kind of get shuttled into the unconscious. 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:39.840 buried down in there. 00:24:39.840 --> 00:24:43.200 But you know, anything like that that you bury, you bury alive. 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:45.440 And it does have an impact on your life. 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.640 And that's what some of the work is, is to 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:52.360 You know, and that's why Ritual is such a good teacher. 00:24:52.360 --> 00:24:57.640 Because some of the symbols in ritual for me, you know, they really help to connect 00:24:57.840 --> 00:25:00.960 From my conscious awareness to what is unconscious, what's underneath it. 00:25:01.360 --> 00:25:02.880 Why do I react that way to that? 00:25:03.520 --> 00:25:04.960 Why does that trigger me? 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:05.760 Things like that. 00:25:05.760 --> 00:25:09.120 And so those are like inroads to getting in there. 00:25:09.640 --> 00:25:10.840 So I love that poem. 00:25:11.080 --> 00:25:15.640 That would I think that would be a good one to send out to people ahead of time. 00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:16.600 ”Healing” it’s called. 00:25:16.600 --> 00:25:21.240 So when we get off, I'm going to go look that one up and add that to my collection. 00:25:21.240 --> 00:25:23.640 Yeah, I'll put a link in the show notes as well. 00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:33.800 Just to wrap up here, let's you and I make a case for someone to attend the Illinois rites this year, whether they're coming for the first time or they want to come back as an initiator. 00:25:33.660 --> 00:25:35.660 to experience the rites again. 00:25:35.660 --> 00:25:39.419 It's happening August twelfth through the sixteenth at Pilgrim Park. 00:25:39.740 --> 00:25:43.980 What would you tell a man trying to discern whether or not to come in and join us this year? 00:25:43.820 --> 00:25:47.740 Well, I would say to them, trust your intuition on that. 00:25:47.740 --> 00:25:50.300