Brian Mueller: Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation.
Brian Mueller: My name is Brian Mueller.
Brian Mueller: I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen.
Brian Mueller: I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story.
Brian Mueller: This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterward.
Brian Mueller: Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude.
Brian Mueller: This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence.
Brian Mueller: We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence.
Brian Mueller: In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now.
Brian Mueller: If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot
Brian Mueller: org slash app.
Brian Mueller: Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul.
Brian Mueller: On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path.
Brian Mueller: Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him.
Brian Mueller: My guest today is Doug Shirley.
Brian Mueller: Brother, I'm really glad you're here.
Brian Mueller: Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story.
Doug Shirley: My pleasure.
Brian Mueller: Doug, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days.
Doug Shirley: Yeah, well, I am originally from the Philadelphia area, last 20-some years from the Seattle area.
Doug Shirley: How I spend my time.
Doug Shirley: Working, playing, doing yoga, cooking.
Doug Shirley: Probably cooking is my favorite.
Doug Shirley: Three boys, 18, 17, and 12.
Doug Shirley: A wife of 23 years.
Doug Shirley: Couple jobs, an academic job, a counseling job.
Doug Shirley: And then I spent a good bit of time doing the Illuman stuff.
Doug Shirley: I'll be convening Awaken for 2026, like you did in 2025.
Brian Mueller: I'll try to fill your big shoes.
Brian Mueller: You sure you got time for this conversation?
Brian Mueller: Let's talk about the let's dive in.
Brian Mueller: Let's talk about the MROP.
Brian Mueller: The men's rites of passage is a unique experience.
Brian Mueller: It's not a retreat or a workshop.
Brian Mueller: It's an initiation.
Brian Mueller: Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name.
Brian Mueller: Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning.
Brian Mueller: Doug, where and when did you make your rites?
Doug Shirley: 2016 Aravaipa Canyon in Arizona.
Doug Shirley: And who was the Weaver?
Doug Shirley: About how many men also were there?
Doug Shirley: Jim Taylor was there.
Doug Shirley: Belden Lane was there.
Doug Shirley: I think Belt.
Doug Shirley: But it was a I think a a ritual out or a wisdom elder, not a not a weaver, a Jim Taylor.
Doug Shirley: How many guys?
Doug Shirley: I don't know.
Doug Shirley: It was a full crew.
Doug Shirley: So
Doug Shirley: That's usually what, 60, 70, something like that?
Brian Mueller: Yeah, that sounds about right.
Brian Mueller: When you think back to that weekend, what's the very first image that comes forth for you?
Doug Shirley: Being freaked out.
Doug Shirley: And I'll tell you why.
Doug Shirley: Actually, when you ask it that way, the first image that comes is arriving in the airport.
Doug Shirley: And finding out I was a doctoral student at the time, finding out that my appeal to get more time on my dissertation had just been denied.
Doug Shirley: And I was now given three weeks to finish the damn thing.
Doug Shirley: And if I didn't finish it, not only would I not earn my degree, they'd kick me out for statute of limitations.
Doug Shirley: So talk about the heat getting turned way up upon arrival.
Brian Mueller: Right.
Brian Mueller: And then you were going to spend, you know, five days in the desert, right?
Doug Shirley: So five days where I'd be unplugged.
Doug Shirley: Yeah.
Doug Shirley: Five days I could be writing.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, that's a lot to come in with.
Brian Mueller: So generally though, speaking, how was that whole entire experience like for you?
Brian Mueller: Thinking back to the whole event?
Doug Shirley: You know, Brian, I had no categories for what was to come.
Doug Shirley: And I would
Doug Shirley: It's kind of cool these questions you're asking because like the first word that comes is central.
Doug Shirley: It was so sensory oriented.
Doug Shirley: And when I think about experiences of retreat or men's work or whatever we call it that I would have done prior.
Doug Shirley: It would not have engaged the body.
Doug Shirley: It would not have engaged the sensorium.
Doug Shirley: Even like good food.
Doug Shirley: Like
Doug Shirley: Healthy food, like not just like lasagna.
Doug Shirley: So that's the first thing that comes.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, now without without divulging anything that might be confidential or too personal.
Brian Mueller: Was there any uh was there a a a singular experience that you had during the riots, or maybe an encounter with another man that really stands out to you?
Doug Shirley: Yeah, there were there were
Doug Shirley: Two.
Doug Shirley: One was in a ritual.
Doug Shirley: And what's interesting is probably at the time, you know, people talk about ritual and sort of like looking around and seeing that other people are having experiences that they wish to have.
Doug Shirley: And
Doug Shirley: Feeling like an imposter and all that sort of thing.
Doug Shirley: And what I would say is, like, I was having one of those times.
Doug Shirley: So, like, in the moments that brought transformation, it wasn't like I was like, oh, good, here's my transformation.
Doug Shirley: I was like, how come those jerks over there get a better experience than I have?
Doug Shirley: And so it was actually only in being able to look back and start to really sort of cook.
Doug Shirley: And what had happened let it cook in me.
Doug Shirley: Did some therapy afterwards and things like this to really kind of flesh out and live into.
Doug Shirley: So, so that would be one.
Doug Shirley: Just I can speak often of a time and a ritual.
Doug Shirley: Another is went with a dear friend who kicked my tail end a bit.
Doug Shirley: You heard me say I was already kind of wound up thinking.
Doug Shirley: Oh my gosh, three weeks, major deadline.
Doug Shirley: How am I going to do this?
Doug Shirley: Five days out in the desert.
Doug Shirley: This is a waste of time.
Doug Shirley: And so I was a couple of days into the thing.
Doug Shirley: And was ready to sort of like call it quits.
Doug Shirley: It's like, okay, that's good.
Doug Shirley: You know, I had some good experience already, ate some good food.
Doug Shirley: You know, I should probably pace myself now, start to kind of like pull back a little bit.
Doug Shirley: Sitting by a river, Jeffrey Batstone, who I know you've interviewed for this podcast, was like, Don't do it, there's enough, and really encouraged me to move back in.
Doug Shirley: And actually, the time that I just described to you happened after that.
Doug Shirley: So maybe had Jeffrey not kicked my pants a little bit, I may not have been as open as I was.
Doug Shirley: Well, I don't know if I was open, but I was opening.
Brian Mueller: No, I mean, it's very I appreciate what you're saying.
Brian Mueller: A lot of the stories, especially in retrospect, you can sugarcoat things.
Brian Mueller: You can say, wow, that was an amazing, transformative experience.
Brian Mueller: But, you know, I don't like to underestimate or underemphasize the fact that this is work.
Brian Mueller: You're doing real work there.
Doug Shirley: Oh, my gosh.
Doug Shirley: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Doug Shirley: Yeah.
Doug Shirley: And if it I literally, I'm sorry, therapist by trade, was talking about transformation with the client last night.
Doug Shirley: And oh gosh, what was her word?
Doug Shirley: Sucks ass.
Doug Shirley: Transformation success was her phrase.
Doug Shirley: And I said, Yeah, it usually does.
Doug Shirley: Right.
Doug Shirley: So, like, in the moment, it's not often full of pleasantry.
Doug Shirley: You may have a sense that something's stirring, but oftentimes longing and moment and such are actually what's most felt in the moment
Brian Mueller: Yeah, I don't talk about my rites experience too much on these podcasts because I really want yours to come through.
Brian Mueller: But I remember the feeling when my rites was over, like, wow, I survived that.
Doug Shirley: I'm never coming back.
Doug Shirley: For sure.
Doug Shirley: Why would they do that again?
Brian Mueller: For sure.
Brian Mueller: Yes.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, it's such a challenge.
Brian Mueller: So, thinking back to your decision to go to the rites, how did your family or friends, you know, your community respond to your decision to go?
Doug Shirley: That's interesting.
Doug Shirley: I thought you were going to ask, how did they contribute to my decision to go?
Doug Shirley: How did they respond to my decision?
Doug Shirley: Well, a mixed bag.
Doug Shirley: My wife was hugely supportive, but I don't really think she probably had a lot of hope.
Doug Shirley: You know, so it's not like she was like, Oh, great.
Doug Shirley: I'm going to get a new husband out of this deal.
Doug Shirley: You know, Ned Abenroth and I just did a podcast for Illumina Cave.
Doug Shirley: It's the cave in the cave in the fire.
Doug Shirley: Thank you.
Doug Shirley: Yeah.
Doug Shirley: Where we tell the story of Ned really being instrumental in inviting me to come.
Doug Shirley: And so Ned and Paul Stanky and Jeff Batstone, those friends, I would not have come had they not just invited not just invited, but really nudged.
Doug Shirley: And so I think, as is true probably of most of my healing and transformation, my decisions were really informed by others.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: So were there circumstances in your life - was there something going on in your life at that particular time?
Brian Mueller: Obviously, you had men that you were close to nudging you along in this, but was there something else, I mean, that was going on that said, yeah, this is the time to do this?
Doug Shirley: I mean, I would say it's probably disturbed enough and probably dry enough.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Doug Shirley: Right.
Doug Shirley: So, you know, dryness, let's say maybe spiritual dryness comes in lots of forms, including like life being half decent.
Doug Shirley: You know what I mean?
Doug Shirley: And life's sort of like halfway working.
Doug Shirley: Right.
Doug Shirley: But but maybe not unlike that thing I was describing, Richard.
Doug Shirley: You know, Joan said there's no psyche doesn't know the difference between ritual space and real space, right?
Doug Shirley: So, like, what I was describing in ritual space of like thinking others were having an experience that was maybe better than mine, I would say that was probably going on in my real life, too, right?
Doug Shirley: Like, you
Doug Shirley: Things were progressing, and sure, I was up against a wall, a deadline, but things were progressing, and yet, you know, the marrow of life maybe seemed like it wasn't quite getting to me.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, yeah.
Brian Mueller: Did your this just occurred to me though, because you I haven't asked this question before, but you have three sons.
Brian Mueller: Did they affect your decision to go in any way?
Doug Shirley: Oh man, I love that question.
Doug Shirley: Let's see.
Doug Shirley: So twenty sixteen would have been ten years ago.
Doug Shirley: So it would have been they would have been eight, seven and a glint in my eye.
Doug Shirley: God, I want to say yes.
Doug Shirley: I mean, they if they don't affect most every man, gosh.
Doug Shirley: Yeah.
Doug Shirley: Our field is if they don't affect most everything I do, then that's a problem.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, well, thank you for that.
Brian Mueller: So when you arrived at the rites, you kind of said that you had this sort of visceral reaction upon arriving, but was there something you were hoping for or you wanted to be initiated into?
Doug Shirley: Oh man.
Doug Shirley: That's good questions.
Doug Shirley: I mean, if I'm honest with you, Brian, my ego would have been intact enough at the time that I would have wanted something really flashy.
Doug Shirley: Yeah.
Doug Shirley: If I look back now with maybe a wisdom or a deeper sense of brokenheartedness or something, I could say, I would have wanted wanted to be getting back to myself.
Doug Shirley: But I wouldn't have known that at the time.
Doug Shirley: I would have been looking for something flashy.
Doug Shirley: I remember in one of the early rituals, kind of like being the first to volunteer.
Doug Shirley: So that I could do the big flashy thing and everybody could see it.
Brian Mueller: Right, right.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: And but was there anything, though, conversely, that you were really fearing?
Doug Shirley: When you arrive at the end of the day, oh, I mean, the same thing I just said.
Doug Shirley: So, back to ego and tech.
Doug Shirley: I was afraid of getting messed up.
Doug Shirley: You know, and even like, again, like, even the like feeling the disruption under the first couple of days, and I'm like, okay, that's enough.
Doug Shirley: They're there.
Doug Shirley: You know, let's.
Doug Shirley: Let's pack that in.
Doug Shirley: I was afraid of getting dismantled.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, yeah.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, obliterated, right?
Brian Mueller: The ethical figures obliteration.
Doug Shirley: Yes, I was fairly protected behind that bugger.
Brian Mueller: So it's a you know, it's a long experience.
Brian Mueller: It's parts of five days.
Brian Mueller: You're there for four nights.
Brian Mueller: And of course, Aravaipa is just a beautiful natural location.
Brian Mueller: Uh it has that unique feature too where a lot of the men at those rites get to sleep out outside, outdoors.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: Which is such a wonderful experience.
Brian Mueller: But, you know, sooner or later, and one of the other features is it's somewhat remote, so a lot of guys carpool into the rites, whether they're coming from the airport or elsewhere.
Brian Mueller: I usually like to ask, you know, how did you feel when you left the rites?
Brian Mueller: Thinking a lot about my own experience where I was able to drive off alone.
Brian Mueller: I know that wasn't the experience for you.
Brian Mueller: You probably left in a van full of guys that were heading back to the airport or whatever.
Brian Mueller: But how did you feel in the immediate aftermath, whether that's an hour or two theater?
Doug Shirley: You know, I knew something had just happened.
Doug Shirley: I knew something significant just happened.
Doug Shirley: And so I remember I was I think I was I mean, you described it well.
Doug Shirley: I think I was literally like in the back right corner of the minivan with my ass stuck to like three other guys, you know
Doug Shirley: But no, I yeah, I I remember having had a sense of like something significant has just happened.
Doug Shirley: And you know, you've already heard me say I was already feeling the angst of what I had to go back.
Doug Shirley: Too.
Doug Shirley: Right.
Doug Shirley: But, but so, probably, some nix of like wanting to come back and tell my wife something just happened.
Doug Shirley: Yeah.
Doug Shirley: And then also, uh-oh, I have this big thing to do.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, you really had to jump right back in it with your doctoral thesis and all that sort of thing.
Brian Mueller: So it probably I like to tell guys if they have that possible if they have this, it really does feel like a luxury, but give yourself some space both before entering the rites and then it's wise.
Doug Shirley: That's white.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: So how did the conversations with your wife and others change afterwards?
Brian Mueller: I mean, what did you tell them?
Doug Shirley: Yeah, you know, I remember just like crying a whole lot.
Doug Shirley: You know, like trying to tell.
Doug Shirley: I mean, it's kind of like how you're saying, I'm like, you know, trying to not like spill the beans.
Doug Shirley: I'm like.
Doug Shirley: Hey, here's everything we did.
Doug Shirley: But trying to sort of give enough of a frame for, like, here are some of the experiences that we had, but then also trying to capture by words and in a different space, like what was otherworldly.
Doug Shirley: Right?
Doug Shirley: Like, I think, I mean, you asked the question of, like, you know, how did my boys inform?
Doug Shirley: My youngest is Eli, you know, and so let's say, you know, metaphysically, Eli existed out there in the universe.
Doug Shirley: He just didn't have bodily form yet.
Doug Shirley: Like, I had a sense that.
Doug Shirley: Otherly, otherworldly stuff was happening in and around me.
Doug Shirley: And man, you just like putting that into words is pretty darn hard.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: No, it really is.
Brian Mueller: So, what has changed in your life since Making the rites, maybe practically, relationally, even spiritually speaking?
Doug Shirley: It's fun, Brian.
Doug Shirley: I haven't heard any of these podcasts you've done yet.
Doug Shirley: So, I didn't have any kind of idea of the questions you'd ask.
Doug Shirley: So it's f it's fun to be in your question for now and even hear what I'm saying.
Doug Shirley: Like I I am so much more otherworldly than I was.
Doug Shirley: I mean, just even to follow my own lead.
Doug Shirley: I am so much more informed by something deeper than myself.
Doug Shirley: In my teaching and my counting off, I refer to myself as a bit more woo-woo, right?
Doug Shirley: Like making k metaphysical connections, that really requires some faith and belief.
Doug Shirley: It really requires some sense of like, no, there is more here than we might be inclined to see or to say.
Brian Mueller: You know what's interesting to me is that your rites
Brian Mueller: took place sort of at the same time as sort of the the culmination of your academic achievement.
Brian Mueller: You know, sort of that capstone that you would have
Brian Mueller: Towards your next step in your career.
Brian Mueller: I mean, at that time, still, you were probably young as a counselor in the work that you're doing.
Brian Mueller: It's interesting that that would come at that point.
Brian Mueller: Without a doubt, an influence.
Brian Mueller: Well, the one influence.
Doug Shirley: Well, very heady work, very heady work, right?
Doug Shirley: Like, you know, a dissertation is all about finding out what all the literature says in a particular area, quote unquote, becoming expert to that area.
Doug Shirley: Right.
Doug Shirley: And so such left-brained activity.
Doug Shirley: Right.
Doug Shirley: And then we were invited to come in.
Doug Shirley: I mean, you hear me say it was the sensorium, it was the sensuality of the time.
Doug Shirley: That's not very left-brained.
Doug Shirley: And that's a part of what can be kind of freaky, you know, is being invited into an experience where logic isn't necessarily the thing that's going to hold you.
Brian Mueller: Right.
Brian Mueller: Lots to think about there.
Brian Mueller: One of the questions I like to ask is, though, how has the rites, and maybe your journey since the rites, affected your understanding of masculinity, initiation, and even the male journey?
Doug Shirley: You know, as we're prepping for Awaken 2026, or if you, again, you listen to the podcast between that and me, I am really loathe.
Doug Shirley: to engage sort of approaches to masculinity that singularize it or that say like
Doug Shirley: You know, it's a thing that it's a monolith, right?
Doug Shirley: Like you being your sacred masculine self, Brian, and me being my sacred masculine self are the same thing.
Doug Shirley: They just aren't, right?
Doug Shirley: And in fact, the sacred masculine lives between you and me as we engage in this conversation much more than in either one of us.
Doug Shirley: And so that to me, as I age and see and feel how much I need people and need brothers, need brothers like you.
Doug Shirley: That's where I would say that the the heartbeat, the drumbeat of the masculine comes through in those spaces between us as we take up residence in our own particularities.
Doug Shirley: I think that it's much more of that than, like, here's the four attributes that if you take on, you and me will pass the test.
Brian Mueller: Wow.
Brian Mueller: You know, as you're talking, even as I ask the question, what came to my mind is there's a podcast by a man named Ian Mc
Brian Mueller: Kenzie called The Mythic Masculine.
Brian Mueller: And Ian's not part of Illuman that I know of.
Brian Mueller: I first listened to the podcast because Ned Abenroth was on his show talking about the elder rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: But he recently did a two or three part series where he
Brian Mueller: He talks to a panel of trans men.
Doug Shirley: I saw the title of the podcast and wanted to see it.
Doug Shirley: So tell me about it.
Doug Shirley: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: I was just amazed listening to these trans men talk about their journeys.
Brian Mueller: And they were probably anywhere from their fifties
Brian Mueller: To their maybe early 30s in age.
Brian Mueller: And, you know, when I came away, I had never given, I still have not given as much thought.
Brian Mueller: To what it means to be a man, as each of these panelists have.
Brian Mueller: Yes.
Brian Mueller: They had to.
Doug Shirley: I mean, they had to.
Doug Shirley: I didn't watch it, but I can only imagine they had to.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, it blew me away in a way that I wasn't prepared for because I thought to myself, I have not really even thought about this personally.
Brian Mueller: To the extent that they have, and that there might be a lot of room for growth there.
Brian Mueller: And so it really has given me pause.
Brian Mueller: It just tells me that
Brian Mueller: The complexity of these questions is much more than maybe I realize.
Doug Shirley: Well, and you know, like you and I, if if we would be considered cisgendered, meaning like we would
Doug Shirley: Fit, you know, we would feel like our identities kind of fit in the bodies that we're born into.
Doug Shirley: You know, there's sort of a givenness that comes with, like, oh, you're a man.
Doug Shirley: Oh, you're a white man, right?
Doug Shirley: And so, some of actually what we've got to unpack is that given us, because it's not like the givenness is true.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Doug Shirley: Right?
Doug Shirley: It's just been handed down.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, it is.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, it's taken for granted on some level.
Brian Mueller: But there's something to it.
Brian Mueller: You know, after being involved with this work for now 12 years or so, and
Brian Mueller: And you may be doing this this year, too.
Brian Mueller: I'm going to be at our Rites of Passage in Illinois in August.
Brian Mueller: I'm really excited to be at that experience because it's a ritual transformative event.
Brian Mueller: I know that that will happen there for many of the men who are in attendance.
Brian Mueller: But I'm not even sure.
Brian Mueller: On some level, what it means to be a man, you know?
Doug Shirley: But that's the good news, right?
Doug Shirley: Like your uncertainty there and your willingness to seek
Doug Shirley: Yeah.
Doug Shirley: means that you're not foreclosing.
Doug Shirley: Yeah.
Doug Shirley: Means that you're not just simply going with the givenness that you were handed.
Brian Mueller: Right.
Brian Mueller: And you know, people I was talking I told you I was talking to a man yesterday about his experience that he had participated in some Father Richard Groh retreats before the rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: And then 30 plus years later, he did a rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: And he talked about the evolution.
Brian Mueller: He mentioned the evolution, obviously, in the rites.
Brian Mueller: And I hadn't thought much about that because I think probably in framework, it's still very similar to what.
Brian Mueller: Uh, Richard was offering in 1996, but it is evolving.
Brian Mueller: This whole experience is evolving, and uh, you know, the rites that you and I went through more than 10 years ago is not the same experience that Sherman
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: And that's good news, right?
Brian Mueller: Context really matches.
Brian Mueller: That's good news.
Brian Mueller: That is good news.
Brian Mueller: I appreciate you taking some time to kind of explore these things with me.
Brian Mueller: I do want to ask, though, if you were if a man came to you and said, I'm not sure about the rites, this is new to me.
Brian Mueller: Should I participate in the rites?
Brian Mueller: Do you have any advice for that man?
Doug Shirley: Well, it's kind of like the uncertainty that I just supported or wanted to support in Use, and I don't know what it means.
Doug Shirley: If a man were to sit come and say I'm uncertain, I'd say, oh, good.
Doug Shirley: Don't rush headlong into the thing, right?
Doug Shirley: Like actually, your trepidation or your ambivalence or your uncertainty or your anxiety.
Doug Shirley: Oh, good.
Doug Shirley: That actually would be not so much like the thing to listen to by way of like, okay, say no.
Doug Shirley: And maybe they do need to say no, but actually that they're taking it seriously enough.
Doug Shirley: To question or to feel uncertain.
Doug Shirley: Man, I'd say bring all of that with you if you go, when you go.
Doug Shirley: Don't leave the uncertainty or the question or the doubt or the
Doug Shirley: Insecurity, whatever it does.
Doug Shirley: Don't leave it behind.
Doug Shirley: Actually, that you're feeling it.
Doug Shirley: That probably is good information.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, that's really sound.
Brian Mueller: One of the things I want to ask you is: is there anything that should be said about the rites?
Brian Mueller: That we Illumined currently don't say about their rites?
Brian Mueller: That seems like a big question.
Brian Mueller: Man.
Brian Mueller: You know what guys have said to me, just maybe as a point of reference, is that they always they're reassuring.
Brian Mueller: They're very reassuring.
Brian Mueller: When I ask this question to other men, I don't ask this exact same question to other men, but I ask them what counsel or advice they would give a man.
Brian Mueller: There's a lot of reassurance.
Doug Shirley: Oh, that's helpful.
Doug Shirley: That's a helpful way.
Doug Shirley: I lost my mind in your first question.
Doug Shirley: But, you know, the thing that I would say is it is really unusual to be so supportive.
Doug Shirley: Right.
Doug Shirley: So like even even how you've heard me speaking of like being freaked out and this sort of thing, it is really unusual to go to a place where you will experience so much support, where men will love and support each other.
Doug Shirley: Or challenge each other, but love and support each other.
Doug Shirley: I think that's probably said to some degree, but I don't know that even so, I don't know that I expected it when I went in.
Doug Shirley: I think I probably expected critique.
Doug Shirley: judgment, you know, puffed up chests, all that all that sort of thing.
Brian Mueller: Yeah.
Brian Mueller: Let me change the topic a little bit if I can.
Brian Mueller: And since you are convening the Awaken team this year and that's coming up in November.
Brian Mueller: So just
Brian Mueller: I always mention it at the end of the podcast too, but we're at November 658, The Awaken is happening, and you can find that at lumen.
Brian Mueller: org/slash awaken.
Brian Mueller: It's going to be in Santa Fe.
Brian Mueller: Let me invite you to talk a little bit about that experience this year from where you're at at this point with the team.
Doug Shirley: Yeah, yeah.
Doug Shirley: Well, when you and I were doing our work last year around the sacred fire of the sacred masculine, we're staying there.
Doug Shirley: We're staying with that charge of engaging the sacred masculine.
Doug Shirley: How we're going to do it, how we're going to sort of keep doing it, let's say, is by emphasizing the lived experience of the stories that bring us together.
Doug Shirley: So, in other words, like, it's not like if you and I were to go, we wouldn't.
Doug Shirley: Read stories about masculinity that were outside of us, or the sacredness of masculinity that was outside of us, but rather it would be you and me shoulder to shoulder
Doug Shirley: How do we live and discover the sacred masculine that exists between us?
Doug Shirley: So, we're going to try to capture something that's really hard to capture, which is the “We”.
Doug Shirley: So it's going to be less about like a thing, less about a construct, less about a, okay, sacred masculine that exists outside.
Doug Shirley: It's going to be much more about.
Doug Shirley: How do we live it?
Doug Shirley: How have we been living it?
Doug Shirley: How will we live it when we leave?
Doug Shirley: So it's something about capturing the living, the being, much more than the doing.
Doug Shirley: So I'm not quite sure how we're going to do it.
Doug Shirley: But that is our work.
Brian Mueller: That sounds wonderful just from the sheer fact that, you know, the ability to come and be present and be in that moment.
Brian Mueller: You know how that will saturate the senses and create a sense and find and discover, right?
Doug Shirley: This word discovering that's in our title.
Doug Shirley: That's it.
Doug Shirley: We're going to come to be open to discovering together.
Brian Mueller: Wow.
Brian Mueller: Well, thank you for that.
Brian Mueller: And let me also offer, you know, do you want to plug you?
Brian Mueller: You're going to be on the podcast, The Cave in the Fire, with Ned Abenroth.
Brian Mueller: What's that going to be about?
Doug Shirley: Hopefully, if folks listen to that, they'll hear some overlap to this.
Brian Mueller: Oh, great.
Doug Shirley: So it really was about awakened 20 holy sets.
Doug Shirley: But we talk so one of the phrases that you'll hear Ned use is that masculinity flowers in every man differently.
Doug Shirley: And what we talk about is the importance of the collective of masculinity, again, as opposed to the sort of monolith or singularity of masculinity, that it is in coming together in all of our fullness and all of our particularities and all of our community
Doug Shirley: That the rhythms of the sacred masculine come forth.
Brian Mueller: Brother, I want to thank you.
Brian Mueller: I want to say I love you, and I really appreciate your brother.
Brian Mueller: Yeah, it is so good to see you spend some time at you.
Brian Mueller: Hearing about your experience at the MROP and talking about some of this stuff in more depth has been really great.
Brian Mueller: Thank you.
Brian Mueller: You're welcome, Brad.
Brian Mueller: Thanks for doing this.
Brian Mueller: For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites.
Brian Mueller: The Men's rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six.
Brian Mueller: While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since twenty twelve a Illuman has been the steward of this work.
Brian Mueller: Preserving and Adapting the rites for Men All Over the World.
Brian Mueller: To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return.
Brian Mueller: by Richard Rohr.
Brian Mueller: If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six.
Brian Mueller: The first is in Northern California, May thirteenth through the seventeenth.
Brian Mueller: the second in the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth, and in Illinois, August twelfth through the sixteenth.
Brian Mueller: There's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth.
Brian Mueller: And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is an MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth.
Brian Mueller: You can find details and registration information at Illuman dot
Brian Mueller: org slash MROP.
Brian Mueller: or Illuman dot org slash events.
Brian Mueller: Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico.
Brian Mueller: You can find more at Illuman dot org slash awaken.
Brian Mueller: Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence.
Brian Mueller: If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life.
Brian Mueller: Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence dot
Brian Mueller: org slash app.
Brian Mueller: It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today.
Brian Mueller: Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP.
Brian Mueller: Until next time, brothers, stay present.