WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:12.480 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:13.240 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:18.520 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:25.560 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:25.060 --> 00:00:33.860 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterward. 00:00:33.860 --> 00:00:35.940 Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. 00:00:35.940 --> 00:00:38.980 This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence. 00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:42.700 We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:48.860 In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:54.920 If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot 00:00:55.080 --> 00:00:56.840 org slash app. 00:00:56.740 --> 00:01:08.660 Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. 00:01:07.960 --> 00:01:12.840 On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:19.000 Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:27.440 My guest today is Doug Shirley. 00:01:27.440 --> 00:01:28.720 Brother, I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:28.720 --> 00:01:31.920 Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. 00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:33.680 My pleasure. 00:01:33.420 --> 00:01:36.619 Doug, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:01:36.619 --> 00:01:42.700 Yeah, well, I am originally from the Philadelphia area, last 20-some years from the Seattle area. 00:01:42.460 --> 00:01:44.060 How I spend my time. 00:01:44.780 --> 00:01:48.460 Working, playing, doing yoga, cooking. 00:01:48.460 --> 00:01:50.380 Probably cooking is my favorite. 00:01:51.340 --> 00:01:54.060 Three boys, 18, 17, and 12. 00:01:54.060 --> 00:01:55.980 A wife of 23 years. 00:01:56.320 --> 00:01:59.520 Couple jobs, an academic job, a counseling job. 00:01:59.520 --> 00:02:02.240 And then I spent a good bit of time doing the Illuman stuff. 00:02:02.240 --> 00:02:06.640 I'll be convening Awaken for 2026, like you did in 2025. 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:09.119 I'll try to fill your big shoes. 00:02:08.540 --> 00:02:11.100 You sure you got time for this conversation? 00:02:12.700 --> 00:02:14.220 Let's talk about the let's dive in. 00:02:14.220 --> 00:02:15.660 Let's talk about the MROP. 00:02:15.660 --> 00:02:18.060 The men's rites of passage is a unique experience. 00:02:18.060 --> 00:02:19.740 It's not a retreat or a workshop. 00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:21.740 It's an initiation. 00:02:21.060 --> 00:02:25.299 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. 00:02:25.299 --> 00:02:27.860 Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. 00:02:27.860 --> 00:02:30.819 Doug, where and when did you make your rites? 00:02:30.440 --> 00:02:33.800 2016 Aravaipa Canyon in Arizona. 00:02:33.800 --> 00:02:34.680 And who was the Weaver? 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:36.520 About how many men also were there? 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:38.920 Jim Taylor was there. 00:02:38.920 --> 00:02:40.360 Belden Lane was there. 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:41.000 I think Belt. 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:46.960 But it was a I think a a ritual out or a wisdom elder, not a not a weaver, a Jim Taylor. 00:02:47.200 --> 00:02:47.920 How many guys? 00:02:47.920 --> 00:02:48.480 I don't know. 00:02:48.480 --> 00:02:49.520 It was a full crew. 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:49.760 So 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:52.880 That's usually what, 60, 70, something like that? 00:02:52.880 --> 00:02:54.400 Yeah, that sounds about right. 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:59.600 When you think back to that weekend, what's the very first image that comes forth for you? 00:02:59.940 --> 00:03:01.700 Being freaked out. 00:03:05.540 --> 00:03:06.580 And I'll tell you why. 00:03:07.140 --> 00:03:13.380 Actually, when you ask it that way, the first image that comes is arriving in the airport. 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:23.880 And finding out I was a doctoral student at the time, finding out that my appeal to get more time on my dissertation had just been denied. 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:26.680 And I was now given three weeks to finish the damn thing. 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:31.960 And if I didn't finish it, not only would I not earn my degree, they'd kick me out for statute of limitations. 00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:37.400 So talk about the heat getting turned way up upon arrival. 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:37.440 Right. 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:40.400 And then you were going to spend, you know, five days in the desert, right? 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:43.120 So five days where I'd be unplugged. 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:43.440 Yeah. 00:03:43.440 --> 00:03:44.960 Five days I could be writing. 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:47.040 Yeah, that's a lot to come in with. 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:50.560 So generally though, speaking, how was that whole entire experience like for you? 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:52.560 Thinking back to the whole event? 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:58.560 You know, Brian, I had no categories for what was to come. 00:03:58.959 --> 00:03:59.840 And I would 00:04:00.640 --> 00:04:06.000 It's kind of cool these questions you're asking because like the first word that comes is central. 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:10.319 It was so sensory oriented. 00:04:09.980 --> 00:04:18.459 And when I think about experiences of retreat or men's work or whatever we call it that I would have done prior. 00:04:17.840 --> 00:04:20.320 It would not have engaged the body. 00:04:20.320 --> 00:04:22.880 It would not have engaged the sensorium. 00:04:22.880 --> 00:04:25.440 Even like good food. 00:04:25.440 --> 00:04:25.760 Like 00:04:26.039 --> 00:04:29.319 Healthy food, like not just like lasagna. 00:04:29.319 --> 00:04:31.159 So that's the first thing that comes. 00:04:31.159 --> 00:04:36.680 Yeah, now without without divulging anything that might be confidential or too personal. 00:04:36.139 --> 00:04:42.699 Was there any uh was there a a a singular experience that you had during the riots, or maybe an encounter with another man that really stands out to you? 00:04:43.020 --> 00:04:44.220 Yeah, there were there were 00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:46.200 Two. 00:04:46.200 --> 00:04:48.120 One was in a ritual. 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:57.800 And what's interesting is probably at the time, you know, people talk about ritual and sort of like looking around and seeing that other people are having experiences that they wish to have. 00:04:57.800 --> 00:04:58.040 And 00:04:58.180 --> 00:05:00.500 Feeling like an imposter and all that sort of thing. 00:05:00.500 --> 00:05:04.100 And what I would say is, like, I was having one of those times. 00:05:04.420 --> 00:05:10.260 So, like, in the moments that brought transformation, it wasn't like I was like, oh, good, here's my transformation. 00:05:10.940 --> 00:05:14.860 I was like, how come those jerks over there get a better experience than I have? 00:05:14.860 --> 00:05:21.580 And so it was actually only in being able to look back and start to really sort of cook. 00:05:21.220 --> 00:05:23.780 And what had happened let it cook in me. 00:05:24.100 --> 00:05:29.540 Did some therapy afterwards and things like this to really kind of flesh out and live into. 00:05:29.460 --> 00:05:30.979 So, so that would be one. 00:05:30.979 --> 00:05:35.220 Just I can speak often of a time and a ritual. 00:05:35.220 --> 00:05:39.780 Another is went with a dear friend who kicked my tail end a bit. 00:05:40.180 --> 00:05:43.300 You heard me say I was already kind of wound up thinking. 00:05:43.039 --> 00:05:45.440 Oh my gosh, three weeks, major deadline. 00:05:45.440 --> 00:05:46.479 How am I going to do this? 00:05:46.479 --> 00:05:48.000 Five days out in the desert. 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:49.280 This is a waste of time. 00:05:49.280 --> 00:05:52.720 And so I was a couple of days into the thing. 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:54.479 And was ready to sort of like call it quits. 00:05:54.479 --> 00:05:56.080 It's like, okay, that's good. 00:05:56.080 --> 00:05:59.120 You know, I had some good experience already, ate some good food. 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:03.600 You know, I should probably pace myself now, start to kind of like pull back a little bit. 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:12.880 Sitting by a river, Jeffrey Batstone, who I know you've interviewed for this podcast, was like, Don't do it, there's enough, and really encouraged me to move back in. 00:06:12.880 --> 00:06:16.960 And actually, the time that I just described to you happened after that. 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:21.400 So maybe had Jeffrey not kicked my pants a little bit, I may not have been as open as I was. 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:24.200 Well, I don't know if I was open, but I was opening. 00:06:24.200 --> 00:06:27.160 No, I mean, it's very I appreciate what you're saying. 00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:32.440 A lot of the stories, especially in retrospect, you can sugarcoat things. 00:06:32.440 --> 00:06:35.080 You can say, wow, that was an amazing, transformative experience. 00:06:35.080 --> 00:06:39.080 But, you know, I don't like to underestimate or underemphasize the fact that this is work. 00:06:39.080 --> 00:06:40.040 You're doing real work there. 00:06:40.280 --> 00:06:41.080 Oh, my gosh. 00:06:41.080 --> 00:06:41.640 Yeah. 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:42.120 Yeah. 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:42.440 Yeah. 00:06:42.919 --> 00:06:48.680 And if it I literally, I'm sorry, therapist by trade, was talking about transformation with the client last night. 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:50.199 And oh gosh, what was her word? 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:51.639 Sucks ass. 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:55.040 Transformation success was her phrase. 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:56.560 And I said, Yeah, it usually does. 00:06:56.560 --> 00:06:56.960 Right. 00:06:56.960 --> 00:07:01.760 So, like, in the moment, it's not often full of pleasantry. 00:07:01.820 --> 00:07:10.700 You may have a sense that something's stirring, but oftentimes longing and moment and such are actually what's most felt in the moment 00:07:10.539 --> 00:07:14.539 Yeah, I don't talk about my rites experience too much on these podcasts because I really want yours to come through. 00:07:14.539 --> 00:07:18.940 But I remember the feeling when my rites was over, like, wow, I survived that. 00:07:18.940 --> 00:07:21.180 I'm never coming back. 00:07:21.020 --> 00:07:21.979 For sure. 00:07:21.979 --> 00:07:23.819 Why would they do that again? 00:07:23.819 --> 00:07:24.780 For sure. 00:07:25.180 --> 00:07:25.580 Yes. 00:07:25.819 --> 00:07:27.180 Yeah, it's such a challenge. 00:07:27.180 --> 00:07:34.379 So, thinking back to your decision to go to the rites, how did your family or friends, you know, your community respond to your decision to go? 00:07:35.820 --> 00:07:36.540 That's interesting. 00:07:36.540 --> 00:07:39.340 I thought you were going to ask, how did they contribute to my decision to go? 00:07:39.340 --> 00:07:40.940 How did they respond to my decision? 00:07:40.940 --> 00:07:42.220 Well, a mixed bag. 00:07:42.620 --> 00:07:47.340 My wife was hugely supportive, but I don't really think she probably had a lot of hope. 00:07:47.039 --> 00:07:48.879 You know, so it's not like she was like, Oh, great. 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:50.720 I'm going to get a new husband out of this deal. 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:56.000 You know, Ned Abenroth and I just did a podcast for Illumina Cave. 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:57.759 It's the cave in the cave in the fire. 00:07:57.840 --> 00:07:58.400 Thank you. 00:07:58.400 --> 00:07:58.960 Yeah. 00:07:59.380 --> 00:08:04.180 Where we tell the story of Ned really being instrumental in inviting me to come. 00:08:04.180 --> 00:08:13.460 And so Ned and Paul Stanky and Jeff Batstone, those friends, I would not have come had they not just invited not just invited, but really nudged. 00:08:13.520 --> 00:08:22.480 And so I think, as is true probably of most of my healing and transformation, my decisions were really informed by others. 00:08:22.220 --> 00:08:22.699 Yeah. 00:08:23.020 --> 00:08:28.460 So were there circumstances in your life - was there something going on in your life at that particular time? 00:08:28.460 --> 00:08:36.300 Obviously, you had men that you were close to nudging you along in this, but was there something else, I mean, that was going on that said, yeah, this is the time to do this? 00:08:37.260 --> 00:08:43.260 I mean, I would say it's probably disturbed enough and probably dry enough. 00:08:43.260 --> 00:08:43.900 Yeah. 00:08:44.500 --> 00:08:45.060 Right. 00:08:45.060 --> 00:08:52.420 So, you know, dryness, let's say maybe spiritual dryness comes in lots of forms, including like life being half decent. 00:08:53.620 --> 00:08:54.580 You know what I mean? 00:08:54.580 --> 00:08:57.140 And life's sort of like halfway working. 00:08:57.140 --> 00:08:57.700 Right. 00:08:57.700 --> 00:09:00.980 But but maybe not unlike that thing I was describing, Richard. 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:05.720 You know, Joan said there's no psyche doesn't know the difference between ritual space and real space, right? 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:14.440 So, like, what I was describing in ritual space of like thinking others were having an experience that was maybe better than mine, I would say that was probably going on in my real life, too, right? 00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:14.840 Like, you 00:09:15.160 --> 00:09:27.160 Things were progressing, and sure, I was up against a wall, a deadline, but things were progressing, and yet, you know, the marrow of life maybe seemed like it wasn't quite getting to me. 00:09:26.820 --> 00:09:28.020 Yeah, yeah. 00:09:28.340 --> 00:09:33.140 Did your this just occurred to me though, because you I haven't asked this question before, but you have three sons. 00:09:33.140 --> 00:09:36.740 Did they affect your decision to go in any way? 00:09:36.440 --> 00:09:37.800 Oh man, I love that question. 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:38.360 Let's see. 00:09:38.360 --> 00:09:40.440 So twenty sixteen would have been ten years ago. 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:46.440 So it would have been they would have been eight, seven and a glint in my eye. 00:09:46.800 --> 00:09:48.800 God, I want to say yes. 00:09:49.040 --> 00:09:54.240 I mean, they if they don't affect most every man, gosh. 00:09:55.199 --> 00:09:55.839 Yeah. 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:03.840 Our field is if they don't affect most everything I do, then that's a problem. 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:04.720 Yeah. 00:10:04.820 --> 00:10:06.660 Yeah, well, thank you for that. 00:10:06.660 --> 00:10:16.660 So when you arrived at the rites, you kind of said that you had this sort of visceral reaction upon arriving, but was there something you were hoping for or you wanted to be initiated into? 00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:18.320 Oh man. 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:20.240 That's good questions. 00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:28.959 I mean, if I'm honest with you, Brian, my ego would have been intact enough at the time that I would have wanted something really flashy. 00:10:28.540 --> 00:10:29.019 Yeah. 00:10:29.019 --> 00:10:38.540 If I look back now with maybe a wisdom or a deeper sense of brokenheartedness or something, I could say, I would have wanted wanted to be getting back to myself. 00:10:38.279 --> 00:10:40.839 But I wouldn't have known that at the time. 00:10:40.839 --> 00:10:42.440 I would have been looking for something flashy. 00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:46.440 I remember in one of the early rituals, kind of like being the first to volunteer. 00:10:47.740 --> 00:10:50.780 So that I could do the big flashy thing and everybody could see it. 00:10:50.780 --> 00:10:51.660 Right, right. 00:10:51.660 --> 00:10:52.220 Yeah. 00:10:52.220 --> 00:10:56.460 And but was there anything, though, conversely, that you were really fearing? 00:10:56.040 --> 00:10:58.680 When you arrive at the end of the day, oh, I mean, the same thing I just said. 00:10:58.680 --> 00:10:59.880 So, back to ego and tech. 00:10:59.880 --> 00:11:01.640 I was afraid of getting messed up. 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:07.640 You know, and even like, again, like, even the like feeling the disruption under the first couple of days, and I'm like, okay, that's enough. 00:11:07.640 --> 00:11:08.200 They're there. 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:09.240 You know, let's. 00:11:08.700 --> 00:11:09.820 Let's pack that in. 00:11:09.820 --> 00:11:11.660 I was afraid of getting dismantled. 00:11:11.660 --> 00:11:12.620 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:12.620 --> 00:11:13.820 Yeah, obliterated, right? 00:11:13.820 --> 00:11:16.300 The ethical figures obliteration. 00:11:16.300 --> 00:11:19.900 Yes, I was fairly protected behind that bugger. 00:11:20.740 --> 00:11:24.980 So it's a you know, it's a long experience. 00:11:24.980 --> 00:11:26.019 It's parts of five days. 00:11:26.019 --> 00:11:26.899 You're there for four nights. 00:11:26.899 --> 00:11:30.100 And of course, Aravaipa is just a beautiful natural location. 00:11:30.459 --> 00:11:35.339 Uh it has that unique feature too where a lot of the men at those rites get to sleep out outside, outdoors. 00:11:35.339 --> 00:11:35.820 Yeah. 00:11:36.060 --> 00:11:38.459 Which is such a wonderful experience. 00:11:37.800 --> 00:11:45.399 But, you know, sooner or later, and one of the other features is it's somewhat remote, so a lot of guys carpool into the rites, whether they're coming from the airport or elsewhere. 00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:48.560 I usually like to ask, you know, how did you feel when you left the rites? 00:11:48.560 --> 00:11:51.360 Thinking a lot about my own experience where I was able to drive off alone. 00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:52.959 I know that wasn't the experience for you. 00:11:52.959 --> 00:11:56.800 You probably left in a van full of guys that were heading back to the airport or whatever. 00:11:56.540 --> 00:12:01.100 But how did you feel in the immediate aftermath, whether that's an hour or two theater? 00:12:01.740 --> 00:12:07.820 You know, I knew something had just happened. 00:12:08.340 --> 00:12:10.660 I knew something significant just happened. 00:12:10.660 --> 00:12:14.500 And so I remember I was I think I was I mean, you described it well. 00:12:14.500 --> 00:12:20.820 I think I was literally like in the back right corner of the minivan with my ass stuck to like three other guys, you know 00:12:22.160 --> 00:12:28.160 But no, I yeah, I I remember having had a sense of like something significant has just happened. 00:12:28.160 --> 00:12:33.600 And you know, you've already heard me say I was already feeling the angst of what I had to go back. 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:33.240 Too. 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:33.560 Right. 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:40.839 But, but so, probably, some nix of like wanting to come back and tell my wife something just happened. 00:12:40.839 --> 00:12:41.319 Yeah. 00:12:41.319 --> 00:12:44.440 And then also, uh-oh, I have this big thing to do. 00:12:44.040 --> 00:12:48.120 Yeah, you really had to jump right back in it with your doctoral thesis and all that sort of thing. 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:58.200 So it probably I like to tell guys if they have that possible if they have this, it really does feel like a luxury, but give yourself some space both before entering the rites and then it's wise. 00:12:58.160 --> 00:12:58.800 That's white. 00:12:59.040 --> 00:12:59.520 Yeah. 00:12:59.520 --> 00:13:03.280 So how did the conversations with your wife and others change afterwards? 00:13:03.280 --> 00:13:05.840 I mean, what did you tell them? 00:13:06.020 --> 00:13:10.820 Yeah, you know, I remember just like crying a whole lot. 00:13:11.140 --> 00:13:13.700 You know, like trying to tell. 00:13:13.700 --> 00:13:17.300 I mean, it's kind of like how you're saying, I'm like, you know, trying to not like spill the beans. 00:13:17.300 --> 00:13:18.180 I'm like. 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:18.959 Hey, here's everything we did. 00:13:18.959 --> 00:13:29.440 But trying to sort of give enough of a frame for, like, here are some of the experiences that we had, but then also trying to capture by words and in a different space, like what was otherworldly. 00:13:29.500 --> 00:13:29.819 Right? 00:13:29.819 --> 00:13:36.060 Like, I think, I mean, you asked the question of, like, you know, how did my boys inform? 00:13:36.060 --> 00:13:41.180 My youngest is Eli, you know, and so let's say, you know, metaphysically, Eli existed out there in the universe. 00:13:41.180 --> 00:13:42.779 He just didn't have bodily form yet. 00:13:42.779 --> 00:13:43.819 Like, I had a sense that. 00:13:44.060 --> 00:13:49.420 Otherly, otherworldly stuff was happening in and around me. 00:13:49.420 --> 00:13:54.140 And man, you just like putting that into words is pretty darn hard. 00:13:53.640 --> 00:13:54.040 Yeah. 00:13:54.040 --> 00:13:54.920 No, it really is. 00:13:54.920 --> 00:14:00.040 So, what has changed in your life since Making the rites, maybe practically, relationally, even spiritually speaking? 00:14:00.040 --> 00:14:00.840 It's fun, Brian. 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:03.640 I haven't heard any of these podcasts you've done yet. 00:14:03.640 --> 00:14:07.160 So, I didn't have any kind of idea of the questions you'd ask. 00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:09.680 So it's f it's fun to be in your question for now and even hear what I'm saying. 00:14:09.680 --> 00:14:12.560 Like I I am so much more otherworldly than I was. 00:14:12.560 --> 00:14:14.800 I mean, just even to follow my own lead. 00:14:14.800 --> 00:14:21.360 I am so much more informed by something deeper than myself. 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:26.000 In my teaching and my counting off, I refer to myself as a bit more woo-woo, right? 00:14:26.160 --> 00:14:31.760 Like making k metaphysical connections, that really requires some faith and belief. 00:14:31.160 --> 00:14:37.240 It really requires some sense of like, no, there is more here than we might be inclined to see or to say. 00:14:37.560 --> 00:14:39.640 You know what's interesting to me is that your rites 00:14:39.940 --> 00:14:46.660 took place sort of at the same time as sort of the the culmination of your academic achievement. 00:14:46.660 --> 00:14:49.060 You know, sort of that capstone that you would have 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:51.240 Towards your next step in your career. 00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:56.360 I mean, at that time, still, you were probably young as a counselor in the work that you're doing. 00:14:56.360 --> 00:14:59.240 It's interesting that that would come at that point. 00:14:58.660 --> 00:14:59.860 Without a doubt, an influence. 00:14:59.860 --> 00:15:00.740 Well, the one influence. 00:15:00.820 --> 00:15:03.060 Well, very heady work, very heady work, right? 00:15:03.060 --> 00:15:11.940 Like, you know, a dissertation is all about finding out what all the literature says in a particular area, quote unquote, becoming expert to that area. 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:12.120 Right. 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:12.440 Right. 00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:15.240 And so such left-brained activity. 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:15.720 Right. 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:17.400 And then we were invited to come in. 00:15:17.400 --> 00:15:22.920 I mean, you hear me say it was the sensorium, it was the sensuality of the time. 00:15:22.160 --> 00:15:23.520 That's not very left-brained. 00:15:23.520 --> 00:15:31.920 And that's a part of what can be kind of freaky, you know, is being invited into an experience where logic isn't necessarily the thing that's going to hold you. 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:32.240 Right. 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:33.680 Lots to think about there. 00:15:33.680 --> 00:15:45.600 One of the questions I like to ask is, though, how has the rites, and maybe your journey since the rites, affected your understanding of masculinity, initiation, and even the male journey? 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:55.240 You know, as we're prepping for Awaken 2026, or if you, again, you listen to the podcast between that and me, I am really loathe. 00:15:55.600 --> 00:16:03.280 to engage sort of approaches to masculinity that singularize it or that say like 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:07.480 You know, it's a thing that it's a monolith, right? 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:13.960 Like you being your sacred masculine self, Brian, and me being my sacred masculine self are the same thing. 00:16:13.720 --> 00:16:15.480 They just aren't, right? 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:25.560 And in fact, the sacred masculine lives between you and me as we engage in this conversation much more than in either one of us. 00:16:25.020 --> 00:16:34.380 And so that to me, as I age and see and feel how much I need people and need brothers, need brothers like you. 00:16:34.800 --> 00:16:46.480 That's where I would say that the the heartbeat, the drumbeat of the masculine comes through in those spaces between us as we take up residence in our own particularities. 00:16:45.839 --> 00:16:54.240 I think that it's much more of that than, like, here's the four attributes that if you take on, you and me will pass the test. 00:16:54.440 --> 00:16:55.240 Wow. 00:16:55.240 --> 00:17:01.880 You know, as you're talking, even as I ask the question, what came to my mind is there's a podcast by a man named Ian Mc 00:17:01.860 --> 00:17:03.700 Kenzie called The Mythic Masculine. 00:17:03.700 --> 00:17:06.260 And Ian's not part of Illuman that I know of. 00:17:06.500 --> 00:17:11.220 I first listened to the podcast because Ned Abenroth was on his show talking about the elder rites of passage. 00:17:11.220 --> 00:17:14.660 But he recently did a two or three part series where he 00:17:14.860 --> 00:17:17.019 He talks to a panel of trans men. 00:17:17.740 --> 00:17:20.459 I saw the title of the podcast and wanted to see it. 00:17:20.459 --> 00:17:21.500 So tell me about it. 00:17:21.500 --> 00:17:21.980 Yeah. 00:17:21.980 --> 00:17:25.659 I was just amazed listening to these trans men talk about their journeys. 00:17:25.659 --> 00:17:28.220 And they were probably anywhere from their fifties 00:17:28.100 --> 00:17:31.299 To their maybe early 30s in age. 00:17:31.299 --> 00:17:38.980 And, you know, when I came away, I had never given, I still have not given as much thought. 00:17:39.019 --> 00:17:42.299 To what it means to be a man, as each of these panelists have. 00:17:42.380 --> 00:17:42.779 Yes. 00:17:43.100 --> 00:17:44.059 They had to. 00:17:44.059 --> 00:17:44.860 I mean, they had to. 00:17:44.860 --> 00:17:47.980 I didn't watch it, but I can only imagine they had to. 00:17:47.740 --> 00:17:56.780 Yeah, it blew me away in a way that I wasn't prepared for because I thought to myself, I have not really even thought about this personally. 00:17:56.460 --> 00:17:59.660 To the extent that they have, and that there might be a lot of room for growth there. 00:17:59.660 --> 00:18:01.660 And so it really has given me pause. 00:18:01.660 --> 00:18:03.020 It just tells me that 00:18:04.060 --> 00:18:08.460 The complexity of these questions is much more than maybe I realize. 00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:13.580 Well, and you know, like you and I, if if we would be considered cisgendered, meaning like we would 00:18:13.760 --> 00:18:17.760 Fit, you know, we would feel like our identities kind of fit in the bodies that we're born into. 00:18:17.760 --> 00:18:22.240 You know, there's sort of a givenness that comes with, like, oh, you're a man. 00:18:22.220 --> 00:18:23.740 Oh, you're a white man, right? 00:18:23.740 --> 00:18:29.740 And so, some of actually what we've got to unpack is that given us, because it's not like the givenness is true. 00:18:29.740 --> 00:18:30.380 Yeah. 00:18:30.700 --> 00:18:31.020 Right? 00:18:31.020 --> 00:18:33.100 It's just been handed down. 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:33.840 Yeah. 00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:34.800 Yeah, it is. 00:18:34.800 --> 00:18:37.440 Yeah, it's taken for granted on some level. 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:38.960 But there's something to it. 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:42.480 You know, after being involved with this work for now 12 years or so, and 00:18:42.740 --> 00:18:44.100 And you may be doing this this year, too. 00:18:44.100 --> 00:18:46.500 I'm going to be at our Rites of Passage in Illinois in August. 00:18:46.740 --> 00:18:51.060 I'm really excited to be at that experience because it's a ritual transformative event. 00:18:51.060 --> 00:18:54.580 I know that that will happen there for many of the men who are in attendance. 00:18:54.900 --> 00:18:56.580 But I'm not even sure. 00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:01.480 On some level, what it means to be a man, you know? 00:19:02.600 --> 00:19:03.880 But that's the good news, right? 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:08.840 Like your uncertainty there and your willingness to seek 00:19:09.300 --> 00:19:09.780 Yeah. 00:19:09.780 --> 00:19:12.180 means that you're not foreclosing. 00:19:12.180 --> 00:19:12.580 Yeah. 00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:16.580 Means that you're not just simply going with the givenness that you were handed. 00:19:16.580 --> 00:19:17.540 Right. 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:18.080 Right. 00:19:18.080 --> 00:19:26.799 And you know, people I was talking I told you I was talking to a man yesterday about his experience that he had participated in some Father Richard Groh retreats before the rites of passage. 00:19:26.019 --> 00:19:28.980 And then 30 plus years later, he did a rites of passage. 00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:30.899 And he talked about the evolution. 00:19:30.899 --> 00:19:33.220 He mentioned the evolution, obviously, in the rites. 00:19:33.220 --> 00:19:38.500 And I hadn't thought much about that because I think probably in framework, it's still very similar to what. 00:19:38.260 --> 00:19:41.700 Uh, Richard was offering in 1996, but it is evolving. 00:19:41.700 --> 00:19:50.340 This whole experience is evolving, and uh, you know, the rites that you and I went through more than 10 years ago is not the same experience that Sherman 00:19:51.360 --> 00:19:51.679 Yeah. 00:19:51.679 --> 00:19:52.720 And that's good news, right? 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:53.760 Context really matches. 00:19:53.919 --> 00:19:54.799 That's good news. 00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:55.679 That is good news. 00:19:55.919 --> 00:19:59.760 I appreciate you taking some time to kind of explore these things with me. 00:20:00.760 --> 00:20:06.840 I do want to ask, though, if you were if a man came to you and said, I'm not sure about the rites, this is new to me. 00:20:06.840 --> 00:20:08.440 Should I participate in the rites? 00:20:08.520 --> 00:20:10.520 Do you have any advice for that man? 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:16.640 Well, it's kind of like the uncertainty that I just supported or wanted to support in Use, and I don't know what it means. 00:20:17.280 --> 00:20:20.880 If a man were to sit come and say I'm uncertain, I'd say, oh, good. 00:20:22.080 --> 00:20:24.160 Don't rush headlong into the thing, right? 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:28.800 Like actually, your trepidation or your ambivalence or your uncertainty or your anxiety. 00:20:28.800 --> 00:20:30.000 Oh, good. 00:20:30.060 --> 00:20:34.940 That actually would be not so much like the thing to listen to by way of like, okay, say no. 00:20:34.940 --> 00:20:40.060 And maybe they do need to say no, but actually that they're taking it seriously enough. 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:40.840 To question or to feel uncertain. 00:20:40.840 --> 00:20:45.480 Man, I'd say bring all of that with you if you go, when you go. 00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:49.000 Don't leave the uncertainty or the question or the doubt or the 00:20:49.360 --> 00:20:50.639 Insecurity, whatever it does. 00:20:50.639 --> 00:20:51.840 Don't leave it behind. 00:20:51.840 --> 00:20:53.519 Actually, that you're feeling it. 00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:55.519 That probably is good information. 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:56.559 Yeah, that's really sound. 00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:01.679 One of the things I want to ask you is: is there anything that should be said about the rites? 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:05.440 That we Illumined currently don't say about their rites? 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:07.680 That seems like a big question. 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:08.800 Man. 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:15.320 You know what guys have said to me, just maybe as a point of reference, is that they always they're reassuring. 00:21:15.320 --> 00:21:16.440 They're very reassuring. 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:21.480 When I ask this question to other men, I don't ask this exact same question to other men, but I ask them what counsel or advice they would give a man. 00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:23.400 There's a lot of reassurance. 00:21:23.120 --> 00:21:24.480 Oh, that's helpful. 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:25.280 That's a helpful way. 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:28.160 I lost my mind in your first question. 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:35.600 But, you know, the thing that I would say is it is really unusual to be so supportive. 00:21:36.059 --> 00:21:36.380 Right. 00:21:36.380 --> 00:21:49.820 So like even even how you've heard me speaking of like being freaked out and this sort of thing, it is really unusual to go to a place where you will experience so much support, where men will love and support each other. 00:21:49.060 --> 00:21:52.420 Or challenge each other, but love and support each other. 00:21:52.420 --> 00:21:58.260 I think that's probably said to some degree, but I don't know that even so, I don't know that I expected it when I went in. 00:21:58.260 --> 00:22:01.060 I think I probably expected critique. 00:22:00.740 --> 00:22:05.460 judgment, you know, puffed up chests, all that all that sort of thing. 00:22:05.460 --> 00:22:06.020 Yeah. 00:22:06.980 --> 00:22:08.820 Let me change the topic a little bit if I can. 00:22:08.820 --> 00:22:14.500 And since you are convening the Awaken team this year and that's coming up in November. 00:22:14.500 --> 00:22:15.060 So just 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:21.360 I always mention it at the end of the podcast too, but we're at November 658, The Awaken is happening, and you can find that at lumen. 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:22.880 org/slash awaken. 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:24.799 It's going to be in Santa Fe. 00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:29.120 Let me invite you to talk a little bit about that experience this year from where you're at at this point with the team. 00:22:29.360 --> 00:22:30.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:35.520 Well, when you and I were doing our work last year around the sacred fire of the sacred masculine, we're staying there. 00:22:35.520 --> 00:22:38.720 We're staying with that charge of engaging the sacred masculine. 00:22:39.300 --> 00:22:48.180 How we're going to do it, how we're going to sort of keep doing it, let's say, is by emphasizing the lived experience of the stories that bring us together. 00:22:48.180 --> 00:22:51.940