WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:12.480 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:13.240 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:18.520 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:25.560 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:25.060 --> 00:00:33.860 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what changed afterward. 00:00:33.860 --> 00:00:35.940 Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. 00:00:35.940 --> 00:00:38.980 This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence. 00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:42.700 We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:48.860 In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:54.920 If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot 00:00:55.080 --> 00:00:56.840 org slash app. 00:00:56.740 --> 00:01:08.660 Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. 00:01:07.960 --> 00:01:12.840 On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:19.000 Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:28.240 My guest today is Tom Melancon. 00:01:28.240 --> 00:01:29.760 Brother, I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:33.360 Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. 00:01:33.020 --> 00:01:34.619 Oh, thanks for having me. 00:01:34.619 --> 00:01:35.820 I appreciate it. 00:01:35.820 --> 00:01:38.939 Tom, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:01:38.939 --> 00:01:45.820 Okay, well, I'm from Seattle, Washington, and I am very recently retired. 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:48.479 And when we get into the rite of passage, we'll talk about that. 00:01:48.479 --> 00:01:51.680 But it was last year that I did my rites. 00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:58.640 I think they call it it was in Oregon, I'm forgetting the name - Sky Camp in Oregon. 00:01:58.500 --> 00:02:04.500 And I was right in the middle of wrapping up my last year of service. 00:02:04.500 --> 00:02:08.660 I was a federal employee for almost 25 years. 00:02:08.420 --> 00:02:16.580 And the job I was ending was I worked as a federal mediator for the last ten years of my federal service. 00:02:16.580 --> 00:02:18.340 And so retired now and just 00:02:19.220 --> 00:02:22.579 Finding all kinds of ways to fill up my scaffolding. 00:02:23.220 --> 00:02:25.700 I feel like I'm just as busy as I was when I was working. 00:02:25.700 --> 00:02:31.700 So, Tom, your men's rites of passage story is a little bit different from those we've featured in our past episodes. 00:02:31.140 --> 00:02:36.739 Let's start by talking about your introduction to Father Richard Rohr and men's spirituality. 00:02:36.739 --> 00:02:43.220 Can you tell me a little bit more about when and where you attended your men's retreat offered by the Center for Action Contemplation? 00:02:43.220 --> 00:02:44.579 Yeah, absolutely. 00:02:44.579 --> 00:02:45.299 So. 00:02:45.140 --> 00:02:48.099 This was in the early 90s. 00:02:48.099 --> 00:02:53.060 I just called my little brother to try to help me remember because it's been 30 plus years. 00:02:53.420 --> 00:02:58.620 93, 94, we traveled to Ghost Ranch for a men's retreat. 00:02:58.620 --> 00:03:02.540 They weren't calling it a rites of passage, but it was a hundred men and 00:03:03.260 --> 00:03:07.660 Richard was the leader, and it was for a week. 00:03:07.660 --> 00:03:10.140 And it was a powerful experience. 00:03:10.140 --> 00:03:13.020 My brother and I were on the younger side of the crowd. 00:03:13.020 --> 00:03:14.620 I mean, you know, I was. 00:03:14.440 --> 00:03:19.480 in my early uh thirties and uh he was late, you know, late twenties. 00:03:19.480 --> 00:03:20.840 He's five years younger than me. 00:03:20.840 --> 00:03:27.000 And uh we were really I mean, there was it was quite a few men that were most of the men were quite a bit older than than us. 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:30.840 And I went two years in a row, and it gets a little fuzzy about which year which thing happened. 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:37.400 But one of the years, I think it was when my brother-in-law went with me the next year, we actually had the opportunity to have breakfast with Richard one day. 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:37.880 He said 00:03:37.780 --> 00:03:49.459 Put it out there that he had some time to, so we had breakfast with him, and we were in the process of trying to form kind of a little spiritual community in where I lived at the time, which was northern Nevada. 00:03:49.459 --> 00:03:50.819 And I asked him. 00:03:50.740 --> 00:03:57.540 I said, Richard, I'm watching these men, especially the older men, and they're having these really profound spiritual experiences. 00:03:57.540 --> 00:04:00.420 And I'm feeling something, but not that. 00:04:00.140 --> 00:04:04.780 And he said, don’t take this the wrong way, Tom, but you're not old enough. 00:04:04.780 --> 00:04:08.540 And I'm not sure I really even understood what he was saying. 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:17.600 But when I went back and took - did the men’s rites passage with Illuman last summer, I was just about to turn 65. 00:04:18.080 --> 00:04:21.840 I had a profound spiritual experience. 00:04:21.840 --> 00:04:24.960 I understood all those years later what he was talking about. 00:04:24.960 --> 00:04:27.440 Yeah, it was transformative. 00:04:27.440 --> 00:04:29.360 And so it's just interesting. 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:31.680 And I hadn't until I listened to 00:04:31.940 --> 00:04:43.940 your podcast a few weeks ago with the gentleman who went on the first of Richard's Rites Passage, I hadn't connected the dots that I mean, I knew Richard had something to do with Illuman, but I hadn't realized that we'd been to 00:04:44.320 --> 00:04:49.360 One of the gatherings of men that was prior to when he probably called it a rites of passage. 00:04:49.760 --> 00:04:50.080 Right. 00:04:50.080 --> 00:04:50.400 Yeah. 00:04:50.400 --> 00:04:53.200 That was the time when he was actually developing the rites, probably. 00:04:53.200 --> 00:04:54.560 And you know, certain. 00:04:54.280 --> 00:04:55.480 It's kind of the precursor. 00:04:55.800 --> 00:04:59.880 Do you remember some of the themes or the names of these retreats that you went on? 00:04:59.880 --> 00:05:02.280 Yeah, one of them was the Hero's Journey. 00:05:02.280 --> 00:05:03.080 God, I should have. 00:05:03.080 --> 00:05:03.560 You know what? 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:06.760 I think I have some notes somewhere buried somewhere around it because I took notes. 00:05:06.760 --> 00:05:08.120 But I can remember some of the themes. 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:08.600 It was. 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:19.480 One of the themes that and it stuck with me because I've, you know, my whole life I've thought about it was that process of a man in terms of his life and his career 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:25.600 Is that you're building this tower of achievements and accomplishments, and you're building, building, building. 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:32.640 And then at some point, if you want to get to the level that you want to get to, you jump off the tower. 00:05:32.039 --> 00:05:33.800 And I thought that was a really powerful. 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:35.960 And I was still building my tower at the time. 00:05:35.960 --> 00:05:37.479 You know, I was in my early 30s. 00:05:37.479 --> 00:05:38.919 I had a lot of my career left. 00:05:38.919 --> 00:05:41.240 You know, I had a couple of careers later after that. 00:05:41.539 --> 00:05:45.139 But it was pretty powerful, that idea of this tower of a common. 00:05:45.139 --> 00:05:49.539 And I remember, one of the things I remember from that workshop, too, was this. 00:05:49.539 --> 00:05:52.180 I don't know if they've used it in Lumen, but it was this 00:05:52.699 --> 00:06:00.940 Image of a world, and there's a man at each stage of his life, and there's a there's a 00:06:01.060 --> 00:06:05.300 Part of it where he's kind of looking eagerly because he's climbing, and it was part of this tremendous. 00:06:05.300 --> 00:06:12.100 And at one point, he's on top, and he looks like he's like, He's just got it, and then at another point, he's starting to slip on the other side. 00:06:11.539 --> 00:06:17.060 And it was this idea of this inexorable wheel of life that Richard was talking about. 00:06:17.060 --> 00:06:19.539 And that was one of the other themes that it just keeps going. 00:06:19.539 --> 00:06:24.340 You know, you have these accomplishments, and then maybe a defeat, and then you get back up. 00:06:25.440 --> 00:06:27.520 But it's a cycle and it continues. 00:06:27.520 --> 00:06:28.639 That's great to hear. 00:06:28.880 --> 00:06:34.639 I'm excited to hear a little bit about what some of those events were that kind of led up to the rites. 00:06:34.060 --> 00:06:40.620 Can you tell me a little bit about what was going on in your life at that time that compelled you to go to this retreat? 00:06:40.620 --> 00:06:42.860 So, the first time or the last year? 00:06:42.860 --> 00:06:43.660 No, the first time. 00:06:45.259 --> 00:06:47.100 Yeah, so the first time 00:06:47.760 --> 00:06:58.080 I think part of it was my younger brother and I, and then my brother-in-law, because we kind of attended with each one, we were attempting to create 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:01.880 Kind of a little spiritual community. 00:07:01.880 --> 00:07:04.200 We were getting together with some families. 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:07.800 It was mostly our family, but it was also some friends. 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:09.640 And I lived in Reno, Nevada at the time. 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:10.760 We were going to 00:07:11.280 --> 00:07:16.400 And my brother and my sister lived in a little town called Loyalton, California, a little mountain town. 00:07:16.400 --> 00:07:19.280 We were going over there every Sunday. 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:24.600 Getting together, kind of praying together, and then talking about what community could look like. 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:26.920 And, you know, one, we were, we were. 00:07:27.039 --> 00:07:31.280 talking and thinking about buying some property and having like a planned community. 00:07:31.280 --> 00:07:36.400 And one of the communities we'd thought about or read about was a one that Richard had 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:38.800 Had established New Jerusalem. 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:43.040 It was before he was even at the Center for Action and Contemplation. 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:43.759 It was prior to that. 00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:45.440 I know he had worked with the community. 00:07:47.320 --> 00:07:51.640 So we were kind of in this spiritual quest. 00:07:51.640 --> 00:07:59.320 But interestingly, one of the things that was going on with me, too, and it took me years to figure it out, and it's part of my story, and I don't mind. 00:07:58.960 --> 00:08:01.199 Talk telling people about it because it is just what it is. 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:07.039 I was also starting my career as an alcoholic and it was starting to ramp up. 00:08:07.039 --> 00:08:08.960 And so it took me years. 00:08:08.960 --> 00:08:10.800 It took me about 10 years. 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:11.280 Well, 00:08:11.320 --> 00:08:19.000 Yeah, almost seven or eight years from that date to realize that I needed to get in recovery, and I've been in recovery since 00:08:19.260 --> 00:08:22.380 since I moved to Seattle in 2001. 00:08:22.380 --> 00:08:24.700 So almost 20 it would be 25 years of November. 00:08:24.700 --> 00:08:27.980 But that was a big it was it was impacting me and I didn't even realize 00:08:28.900 --> 00:08:29.940 How yet. 00:08:29.940 --> 00:08:39.060 You know, it it was something that, you know, I realized that if I was going to have a spiritual practice, I was going to have to figure out how to keep from killing myself with drugs and alcohol first. 00:08:39.300 --> 00:08:39.860 Right. 00:08:39.860 --> 00:08:45.060 Because the two were not going to, you know, they were kind of not going to exist together. 00:08:45.380 --> 00:08:46.660 So that was going on. 00:08:46.660 --> 00:08:52.500 So it sounds to me like you were aware of Father Richard Rohr's involvement with the New Jerusalem community in Cincinnati. 00:08:53.140 --> 00:09:00.180 Maybe you also had some subconscious calling, you know, or a draw to the work to do some spiritual work. 00:09:00.180 --> 00:09:00.740 Well, I was. 00:09:00.740 --> 00:09:04.740 And I was going to mention one other thing, and Stephen and I, my younger brother. 00:09:04.459 --> 00:09:09.100 We'd also been reading some works like Robert Blies, Iron John. 00:09:09.420 --> 00:09:11.980 We were interested in ways 00:09:12.620 --> 00:09:17.100 in this idea of young men especially having some sort of a rite of passage. 00:09:17.100 --> 00:09:18.060 We were talking about it. 00:09:18.060 --> 00:09:22.779 We didn't know what it looked like yet, but we were kind of looking at 00:09:23.640 --> 00:09:27.160 whether it would it would be possible to create such a thing, right? 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:38.120 Now we didn't get around to doing that, but we had that was part of part of the reason the reason to go to the to the retreats with Richard was to explore that and to learn more about that. 00:09:37.459 --> 00:09:38.339 I'm glad you mentioned that. 00:09:38.339 --> 00:09:45.300 So you were aware of Bly's work and Mead's work, the mythopoetic movement, men's movement that was going on at the time. 00:09:45.300 --> 00:09:45.940 Yeah. 00:09:45.560 --> 00:09:51.400 Yeah, let me ask you, so but when you did come out of this retreat experience in the early 90s, what did you take away from it? 00:09:51.400 --> 00:09:53.080 What did you take away from that experience? 00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:56.680 I mean, I think I realized that there was more 00:09:57.140 --> 00:09:58.180 that was possible. 00:09:58.180 --> 00:10:09.060 And part of it, again, going back to my experience, I was watching these men have this really powerful experience, and I wasn't quite having the same one. 00:10:09.260 --> 00:10:12.620 And, you know, why that is, I'm not sure. 00:10:12.620 --> 00:10:18.380 Again, Richard said it was possibly that I hadn't lived enough, really, to if I understand what you were saying. 00:10:18.620 --> 00:10:20.220 But also, you know, I was still 00:10:20.940 --> 00:10:23.100 you know, battling some of my demons, like I said. 00:10:23.180 --> 00:10:29.180 So so it definitely opened up possibilities for me and where things could go. 00:10:29.180 --> 00:10:33.340 But it took me a few years to just, you know, again, kind of get my 00:10:34.839 --> 00:10:40.040 Alcohol and drug demons, you know, and by the way, you know, that's a lifelong thing. 00:10:40.040 --> 00:10:44.680 I still, I'm still an alcoholic and a drug addict, but I've been in recovery for 24 years. 00:10:44.680 --> 00:10:46.920 So I feel like, and that's a 00:10:46.980 --> 00:10:50.580 It's a day-to-day thing, you know, and I and I'm still involved in a recovery program. 00:10:50.580 --> 00:10:54.740 I still, you know, sponsor people and I'm active in it. 00:10:54.740 --> 00:10:56.180 And so that was part of 00:10:56.140 --> 00:10:58.060 Part of what I think I just had to go through. 00:10:58.060 --> 00:10:59.500 But it did plant some seeds. 00:10:59.500 --> 00:11:01.180 It really definitely plants some seeds. 00:11:01.180 --> 00:11:03.740 And there's some themes that I'll never forget 00:11:03.839 --> 00:11:11.759 Like the one we just, I talked about where it's this idea of jumping off your tower of accomplishments, or things that really resonated with me my whole life 00:11:11.660 --> 00:11:22.140 Yeah, that's a theme you continually hear in the men's work is that we are constantly building towers or we were climbing ladders and we find out when we get to the top, it's leaning against the wrong wall, I think is another. 00:11:22.540 --> 00:11:23.020 Yeah. 00:11:22.940 --> 00:11:26.460 Yeah, you know, you mentioned, I can really relate to what you were saying. 00:11:26.460 --> 00:11:33.900 Recently, I reread a book that I had read in college, and it was like, and I had really liked it then, and I was inspired by it on some level. 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:34.400 It's called The True Believer. 00:11:34.400 --> 00:11:37.840 It's a philosophical book about the theory and nature of mass movements. 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:41.600 But I read it again this winter and it was a totally different book for me. 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:44.320 I really needed experience to go deeper. 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:47.280 So I totally understand what you're saying about the rites. 00:11:46.839 --> 00:11:51.240 There's so many things that you're mentioning that I hope we'll hit on in this conversation. 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:54.279 If you don't mind, let's go into talk a little bit about the men's rites of passage. 00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:56.199 Before we do that, I always like to read this. 00:11:55.860 --> 00:12:04.580 Statement just to let the listeners know, because this podcast is really dedicated to men that may know about the men's rites of passage, but really are not familiar with the experience. 00:12:04.580 --> 00:12:06.980 So, let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. 00:12:06.980 --> 00:12:10.420 The MROP is a unique experience, it's not a retreat or a workshop. 00:12:10.280 --> 00:12:11.640 It's an initiation. 00:12:11.640 --> 00:12:15.880 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives looking for something they can't quite name. 00:12:15.880 --> 00:12:18.200 Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at 00:12:18.140 --> 00:12:18.780 The very beginning. 00:12:18.780 --> 00:12:23.580 So you've been, you know, there was a big gap in your experiences of the men's spiritual work. 00:12:23.980 --> 00:12:26.620 I guess that in the organization that became a Illuman. 00:12:26.620 --> 00:12:28.780 But tell us, when did you make your rites then? 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:35.840 So I made it in May of last year, and it was a really interesting time for me because 00:12:36.800 --> 00:12:42.560 I won't go into too much detail, but the the listeners can imagine what was going on last year. 00:12:42.800 --> 00:12:48.800 I was a federal employee and there was probably some stuff in the news about what was happening with federal employees. 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:51.360 We felt like we were kind of under siege. 00:12:51.420 --> 00:12:59.019 And uh and I was uh but I was still working as a federal mediator uh for a little agency called the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service. 00:12:59.019 --> 00:13:03.100 And uh I was I was one of the things I was uh other thing that I do in my 00:13:03.880 --> 00:13:12.440 a vocation of mine is I've been a musician for many years, played in played in bands and and led bands, and I was getting ready to go to France 00:13:12.700 --> 00:13:19.899 For two weeks to participate in a musical artist residency, a place in Chateau in France. 00:13:19.899 --> 00:13:22.140 And then I was going to spend another two weeks with my partner. 00:13:22.140 --> 00:13:23.500 So I had a whole month 00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:25.240 That was carved out in April last year. 00:13:25.240 --> 00:13:31.880 And I needed to save up all my leave because I'm a you know, I'm a public servant, we don't get inexhaustible leave, and I'm saving and saving and saving. 00:13:31.880 --> 00:13:34.520 And I think I just have enough, and a week before 00:13:34.759 --> 00:13:36.519 I am supposed to go to France. 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:41.959 I get an admin a letter that says we're going to be put on administrative leave. 00:13:41.959 --> 00:13:44.839 Okay, you know, and and but it also means 00:13:45.140 --> 00:13:46.420 I don't have to use my leave. 00:13:46.420 --> 00:13:50.020 They're going to pay for the government's going to pay for me to be in France. 00:13:50.020 --> 00:13:50.980 That's just the way it works out. 00:13:50.980 --> 00:13:54.180 So I go to France, have an amazing time. 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:55.880 That's a whole other experience. 00:13:56.360 --> 00:14:05.480 And then when I got back, a friend of mine named Mark Titus had been involved in a rite of passage the year before, and he said, Tom. 00:14:05.540 --> 00:14:09.940 We've talked about, I know you've read Richard Rohr's stuff, you've got a connection with him. 00:14:09.940 --> 00:14:14.260 There's this group that I was involved in, and I think you'd really dig this thing. 00:14:13.820 --> 00:14:15.100 And he told me about it. 00:14:15.100 --> 00:14:20.300 And the reason I hadn't signed up for it is I didn't think I'd have enough leave because I was using all my leave to go to France. 00:14:20.300 --> 00:14:22.540 Well, I didn't have to use any of my leave to go to France. 00:14:22.540 --> 00:14:25.100 So I got back from France and I said, Mark, I'm going. 00:14:25.100 --> 00:14:26.620 And I signed up. 00:14:25.959 --> 00:14:30.120 And got to go to Sky Camp, and it was in May of last year. 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:33.160 And that was the first rites of passage that was done in Oregon, right? 00:14:33.160 --> 00:14:33.560 Was it? 00:14:33.560 --> 00:14:33.880 Okay. 00:14:34.360 --> 00:14:35.640 I believe that was the very first one. 00:14:35.800 --> 00:14:36.920 Who was your weaver? 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:38.279 It was Ned. 00:14:38.160 --> 00:14:39.280 Ned Abenroth. 00:14:39.280 --> 00:14:39.760 Okay. 00:14:39.760 --> 00:14:40.240 Yeah. 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:43.600 And you know, I tell you, the experience was really different. 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:51.840 And so and part of the reason I think it was different was, you know, in those 30 years that went by, especially the last 24 between 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:55.760 My first exposure and this brighter passage. 00:14:56.160 --> 00:15:05.440 I had done a lot of work spiritually, and I'm not going to go into great detail about it because it's an anonymous program, but I am in recovery and I participate in a program that helps people stay sober, right? 00:15:05.339 --> 00:15:09.180 And it is a spiritual program. 00:15:09.180 --> 00:15:09.899 It really is. 00:15:10.060 --> 00:15:10.860 It's not the same. 00:15:10.860 --> 00:15:16.620 I mean, there's differences and nuances, but it definitely part of it is focusing on your spiritual 00:15:16.560 --> 00:15:21.040 Development and your connection with whatever your version of higher power that there is, right? 00:15:21.040 --> 00:15:25.440 So I'd done that work, but also when I got when I arrived at Sky Camp 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:27.760 It was a time that was I'm in a transition. 00:15:27.760 --> 00:15:32.720 I am literally looking at jumping off my tower 'cause I've been working for the federal government for almost twenty five years. 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:33.920 I can see the end is near. 00:15:33.920 --> 00:15:37.680 You know, they've already put me there, already laid me off, kind of ready to go anyway. 00:15:37.680 --> 00:15:40.160 I was I was looking at the end of that year anyway. 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:47.040 And then the other thing is, I really decided to lean in to the experience. 00:15:47.040 --> 00:15:52.560 I mean, I made a conscious decision that, you know, I trust Mark, my friend. 00:15:52.560 --> 00:15:54.080 He told me this thing is. 00:15:54.420 --> 00:15:55.380 Is legit. 00:15:55.380 --> 00:15:56.100 I believe in it. 00:15:56.660 --> 00:16:01.060 I've been connected in one way or another to Richard Roare for all these years. 00:16:01.060 --> 00:16:05.300 And I decided I'm going to say yes to this experience. 00:16:05.220 --> 00:16:06.020 And I did. 00:16:06.260 --> 00:16:07.780 I kind of jumped in. 00:16:08.740 --> 00:16:11.140 Did you know anything about the rites? 00:16:11.460 --> 00:16:12.740 Had you read Adam's Return? 00:16:12.740 --> 00:16:16.100 I mean, you have a little bit different journey, but what did you know going in? 00:16:15.740 --> 00:16:22.860 I'd read Adam's Return just prior to the workshop or to the rites of passage. 00:16:22.860 --> 00:16:27.340 And so I knew, you know, I had some idea of what to expect. 00:16:27.340 --> 00:16:29.260 But obviously, you know. 00:16:29.940 --> 00:16:36.660 You know more about it than I do, but it feels like the Illuman group has really taken Richard's work and expanded it. 00:16:36.959 --> 00:16:39.040 Yeah, it has evolved some in recent years. 00:16:39.040 --> 00:16:40.720 But you obviously had a great deal of trust. 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:42.080 You had a friend recommender. 00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:46.240 You had experienced Richard's retreats in the past and you had read Adam's Return. 00:16:46.640 --> 00:16:48.320 Who else did you share? 00:16:48.260 --> 00:16:52.660 With the your decision to attend the rites, your partner or anybody else, maybe? 00:16:53.220 --> 00:16:56.660 My partner knew about it, and she was very supportive of it. 00:16:56.339 --> 00:17:05.539 I think I I reached out to my younger brother 'cause I I was uh wanted to let him know that I was going to another Richard's retreat or you know con something connected to Richard. 00:17:05.620 --> 00:17:06.980 But you know, the other thing is um 00:17:07.360 --> 00:17:15.120 I actually have a fair amount of skepticism when it comes to anything that can feel guru-ish or, you know, cult-ish in any way. 00:17:15.120 --> 00:17:15.679 And so 00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:20.079 When I arrived, you know, my my antenna were out. 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:23.760 Like, okay, is there, you know, is there anything that's going to be weird here? 00:17:23.760 --> 00:17:30.720 And one of the things that I started feeling right off the bat is just an immense amount of trust. 00:17:31.120 --> 00:17:38.640 Because I could tell how much planning and care and attention had gone into this process. 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:42.000 And you know, I've been involved in my professional life in planning 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:44.880 Conferences and events related to my work for years. 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:46.000 I know what goes into it. 00:17:46.320 --> 00:17:54.320 And I know this is different, but there's some similarities in terms of food and everything you need to do in terms of preparation for lodging and the activities. 00:17:54.320 --> 00:17:54.800 And so 00:17:55.140 --> 00:17:56.980 I was just I was kind of blown away. 00:17:56.980 --> 00:18:07.380 Right off the bat, I could tell this is these are serious people really trying to make this an experience that people could come away with that'll change their lives. 00:18:06.820 --> 00:18:08.660 And so I really leaned in. 00:18:08.660 --> 00:18:09.860 I'm really glad you noticed that. 00:18:09.860 --> 00:18:13.780 It really is a labor of love for the men that put on these men's rites of passage. 00:18:13.780 --> 00:18:17.700 It's a lot of work, but it shows their deep care and affection and willingness. 00:18:17.700 --> 00:18:18.740 They want to do this for others. 00:18:18.740 --> 00:18:21.220 They've had the experience themselves. 00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:22.320 And they want to carry that work forward. 00:18:22.320 --> 00:18:27.840 So let me ask you: what when you were heading into the rites, just about to start, was there something you were hoping for? 00:18:27.840 --> 00:18:30.640 Was there something you wanted to be initiated into? 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:35.799 You know, I don't know if there was anything tangible like that. 00:18:36.360 --> 00:18:39.480 I had a healthy amount of kind of fear. 00:18:39.419 --> 00:18:45.179 There was a certain amount of me that's like, oh, am I going to have to do something that's going to make me really uncomfortable? 00:18:45.179 --> 00:18:48.140 Or, you know, am I going to have to be vulnerable in some way? 00:18:48.140 --> 00:18:49.660 And it turns out, yeah. 00:18:49.820 --> 00:18:51.340 If you decide to. 00:18:52.060 --> 00:18:52.940 And it was fine. 00:18:52.940 --> 00:18:55.740 But I had a certain amount of just anxiety around that. 00:18:55.740 --> 00:19:00.700 But also, just really, again, this openness to 00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:05.720 Like, this is a time in my life when I think that this will benefit me. 00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:08.200 And so I'm just kind of open to what happens. 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:12.520 So, when you think back to those rites, what's the first image that comes forth for you? 00:19:12.140 --> 00:19:25.340 Well, and I'm going to be careful, I don't want to give anything away in case somebody hasn't gone to one and wants to, but you know, each I can say this, each day there they ask for a group of men to volunteer to help 00:19:25.980 --> 00:19:29.020 Create a ritual, right? 00:19:29.660 --> 00:19:34.780 And the very first day they asked for that, I volunteered. 00:19:34.140 --> 00:19:35.420 I raised my hand. 00:19:35.420 --> 00:19:36.460 Again, it was part of me. 00:19:36.460 --> 00:19:37.260 I'm jumping in. 00:19:37.260 --> 00:19:39.100 I'm going to get involved in this thing. 00:19:39.100 --> 00:19:44.780 And I won't even describe the ritual, but there was this team that formed around that. 00:19:45.060 --> 00:19:48.420 And for the rest of the retreat, we were a team. 00:19:48.420 --> 00:19:53.140 Like, because we raised our hands for that, and because we got connected. 00:19:52.760 --> 00:19:57.720 I mean, I connected with a lot of men at the retreat, but that was like my little posse. 00:19:57.720 --> 00:19:59.080 You know, we hung out. 00:19:59.080 --> 00:20:00.919 We we got to know each other because we 00:20:01.120 --> 00:20:06.720 we participated in this pretty powerful ceremony that was very much at the beginning. 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:13.920 It was one of the first things that happened that everybody participated in, but we were facilitating that with the leaders. 00:20:13.260 --> 00:20:19.020 And so that was one of the things that kind of really got me involved in the stories about fraternity. 00:20:19.020 --> 00:20:20.220 Yeah, that's a big deal. 00:20:20.220 --> 00:20:22.700 So was there a without, you know, obviously you're 00:20:22.860 --> 00:20:25.340 You're very aware of the confidentiality and things like that. 00:20:25.340 --> 00:20:34.220 And I don't want to ask you to share anything you don't, but was there a particular experience that you had while at the rites, or maybe even an encounter with another man, that was especially poignant for you? 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:41.480 Yeah, there were several, and I will be careful not to describe it, but there was a particular ritual that we were involved in. 00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:44.000 I think I can say it involved grief. 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:46.320 I think it's not giving any way about it. 00:20:46.320 --> 00:20:48.960 And it was extremely powerful. 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:49.919 And I 00:20:51.500 --> 00:20:58.539 I found myself at at several points during that ritual just feeling like I had 00:20:58.940 --> 00:21:04.059 I was able to let go of some things that I had been carrying around for a long time. 00:21:05.019 --> 00:21:07.980 It was a way to ritually kind of represent 00:21:07.940 --> 00:21:10.740 That and in the process of this ritual. 00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:13.139 And that's the thing, these things were so well thought out. 00:21:13.139 --> 00:21:16.659 I was just, every time I experienced one, so that was super powerful. 00:21:16.659 --> 00:21:17.620 And then there was another 00:21:18.340 --> 00:21:24.260 Another ritual it involved kind of interacting with almost every person in the every man in the room. 00:21:24.260 --> 00:21:30.100 And this was one where we were kind of letting go of some things we'd carried around, some shame and guilt. 00:21:30.100 --> 00:21:31.860 And then at the end of the 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:36.360 Process basically kind of connecting with another man. 00:21:36.360 --> 00:21:39.640 And it was really, really powerful for me. 00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:42.919 It really, the ritual is really where things pivot, right? 00:21:43.040 --> 00:21:43.520 Absolutely. 00:21:43.600 --> 00:21:51.920 Well, so just a funny story is after one of these events, I had cleaned myself up, but I hadn't completely cleaned my face up, and there was some some 00:21:52.600 --> 00:21:55.080 Ash and I cried and stuff like that. 00:21:55.080 --> 00:22:01.159 And this friend of mine from the that I'd gone to the retreat with, because he was there as one of the assistants. 00:22:00.460 --> 00:22:01.100 People in the background. 00:22:01.100 --> 00:22:04.460 So, Mark was there during the retreat, and I got to connect with him periodically. 00:22:05.020 --> 00:22:09.180 He said, Tom, are you having a nice relaxing time here in Oregon? 00:22:10.540 --> 00:22:13.100 He says, I should take a picture of your face. 00:22:14.059 --> 00:22:16.059 And I said, yeah, it's not exactly like that. 00:22:16.299 --> 00:22:20.059 I mean, it is great, but it's like it's not just like a summer camp. 00:22:20.059 --> 00:22:23.340 It's - it's there's a lot going on here, you know. 00:22:23.060 --> 00:22:26.900 Yeah, you're going to do some work, but it's so well that leads me into the next question. 00:22:26.900 --> 00:22:33.940 So, when the event was open, the closing of the rites happened, and it was time to drive back to Seattle. 00:22:34.100 --> 00:22:35.700 How were you feeling? 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:49.919 Well, that's a great question because what I experienced, and I feel like I'm still experiencing it to an extent, they talk about that liminal space that you get into, right, that you arrive in, and the rituals create it. 00:22:49.640 --> 00:22:57.160 I felt like for weeks, maybe months afterwards, and I still feel it to an extent now that I was 00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:03.740 That I had a, I was walking in a different state, like a, I mean, a kind of a state of grace. 00:23:04.380 --> 00:23:06.140 It felt like, I don't know. 00:23:06.140 --> 00:23:10.300 I mean, and again, I remember hearing and reading. 00:23:10.340 --> 00:23:11.860 Richard Rohr talked about this. 00:23:11.860 --> 00:23:13.299 The colors are brighter. 00:23:14.660 --> 00:23:19.059 I can hear the birds and they sound differently because it was this experience really. 00:23:19.299 --> 00:23:22.419 I walked in there one way and walked out another way. 00:23:22.419 --> 00:23:23.539 And it's really. 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:26.480 Difficult to describe unless you've gone through it, you know? 00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:33.120 But it but it really was different than just about anything I'd ever, maybe anything I've ever experienced. 00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:35.260 Difficult to describe. 00:23:35.260 --> 00:23:39.100 I mean, I think one of the things, and I don't remember who said this, Meister. 00:23:39.820 --> 00:23:43.500 There was this, I'm going to garble the quote, but I'm going to try it. 00:23:42.919 --> 00:23:45.160 Best things can't be talked about. 00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:47.559 The second best things are often misunderstood. 00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:49.880 So we end up talking about the third best things. 00:23:50.840 --> 00:23:51.559 Yeah. 00:23:51.460 --> 00:23:51.780 Right. 00:23:52.260 --> 00:23:53.700 That kind of made sense to me. 00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:56.820 No, it's hard to speak about the those transcendent experiences. 00:23:56.820 --> 00:23:57.700 They're they're very deep. 00:23:57.700 --> 00:24:01.940 And somehow it does feel like you you lose them when you do try to articulate them too. 00:24:01.940 --> 00:24:02.260 So 00:24:02.360 --> 00:24:03.399 Yeah, that's great. 00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:10.279 So I also tell guys sometimes, if possible, take some time after the rites before you re-enter your normal life. 00:24:10.279 --> 00:24:15.639 Not everybody has that luxury, but if you do, you definitely will benefit from some time to process. 00:24:15.360 --> 00:24:18.240 So you come back and you tell your partner, maybe you tell some other people. 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:20.880 What was your report on the rites to others? 00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:26.080 Well, I mean, I think like you just talked about, it was really difficult to describe. 00:24:26.080 --> 00:24:27.679 The person that I could 00:24:28.300 --> 00:24:34.140 Describe it to the best was Mark because he would been there and he'd been through the right deer for. 00:24:34.140 --> 00:24:35.580 And so we talked about it a lot. 00:24:35.580 --> 00:24:37.660 I decompressed with him quite a bit. 00:24:37.660 --> 00:24:39.580 And, you know, I did, and I did let my 00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:44.640 Partner to know what the experience was like and how it had impacted me. 00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:49.280 And I was fortunate because I came back and I was still laid off. 00:24:49.280 --> 00:24:50.720 I was still on administrative leave. 00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:52.400 So I didn't have to go right back into work. 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:54.400 I did end up going back to work. 00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:56.820 That year and ended up retiring at the end of September. 00:24:57.059 --> 00:24:59.940 But yeah, I had some time to really kind of sink into it. 00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:03.139 And I have a meditation practice that I do every day. 00:25:03.139 --> 00:25:05.220 And so I was able to meditate it on every day. 00:25:05.260 --> 00:25:09.500 And continue reading and trying to stay connected to it. 00:25:09.500 --> 00:25:10.140