WEBVTT 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:12.480 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:13.240 My name is Brian Mueller. 00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:18.520 I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:25.560 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. 00:00:25.060 --> 00:00:33.860 This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what changed afterward. 00:00:33.860 --> 00:00:35.940 Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. 00:00:35.940 --> 00:00:38.980 This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence. 00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:42.700 We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:48.860 In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:54.920 If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot 00:00:55.080 --> 00:00:56.840 org slash app. 00:00:56.740 --> 00:01:08.660 Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. 00:01:07.960 --> 00:01:12.840 On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:19.000 Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. 00:01:25.440 --> 00:01:27.360 My guest today is Brody Fulk. 00:01:27.360 --> 00:01:29.040 Brother, I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:32.400 Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:34.160 Yeah, thank you for having me. 00:01:34.160 --> 00:01:37.520 Brody, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. 00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:46.399 I am in central Missouri in Rolla and I like to play music. 00:01:46.399 --> 00:01:47.200 I've been 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:50.400 A musician my whole life. 00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:56.720 And right now I'm playing a lot of guitar and singing and just 00:01:57.500 --> 00:01:59.100 having fun with that. 00:01:59.100 --> 00:02:01.979 Um, I also like to go out into the woods. 00:02:01.979 --> 00:02:09.259 I live a little bit outside of town and I like to hunt for mushrooms and just be in the woods. 00:02:09.220 --> 00:02:19.379 We also have some really nice rivers here in central Missouri, and we like to go floating, where we take a kayak or canoe down the river and 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:22.400 swim and have a good time. 00:02:22.720 --> 00:02:26.000 Yeah, that's what I mainly do with my free time. 00:02:26.320 --> 00:02:28.880 Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. 00:02:28.880 --> 00:02:30.960 The MROP is a unique experience. 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:32.480 It's not a retreat or a workshop. 00:02:32.480 --> 00:02:34.320 It's an initiation. 00:02:33.860 --> 00:02:38.420 Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. 00:02:38.420 --> 00:02:41.379 Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. 00:02:41.379 --> 00:02:43.940 When and where did you make your rites? 00:02:43.879 --> 00:02:53.159 So I made my rites in twenty-twenty four in DeRoche, and it was the first rites in Canada. 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:57.799 We were about two hours east of Vancouver. 00:02:57.420 --> 00:03:01.660 Our location was overlooking the Fraser Valley. 00:03:01.660 --> 00:03:04.140 A beautiful, beautiful place. 00:03:04.140 --> 00:03:06.380 My first time ever in the Pacific Northwest. 00:03:06.780 --> 00:03:09.580 Who was the weaver and about how many men were there? 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:16.400 So Ned Abben Roth was our weaver, and we had a huge group actually. 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:19.920 I think in total, initiators and 00:03:20.700 --> 00:03:23.420 Initiates, there were around eighty. 00:03:23.740 --> 00:03:29.260 And when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image or feeling that comes forth for you? 00:03:29.379 --> 00:03:35.140 The first image that comes to me is overlooking the Fraser Valley. 00:03:35.140 --> 00:03:42.099 I remember standing out on the big deck and you could see the Fraser Valley in front of you, and it just 00:03:42.620 --> 00:03:51.580 expanded for miles and you could turn your head and we were sitting on the edge of the mountain. 00:03:51.299 --> 00:03:54.180 With giant trees, giant moss. 00:03:54.180 --> 00:04:03.060 And I remember really when we got there, we get out of our cars and it started immediately. 00:04:02.740 --> 00:04:10.660 And we started walking through the forest and it was my first time seeing the Pacific Northwest forest. 00:04:10.660 --> 00:04:16.579 And so the giant moss, the giant trees, just rich, lush. 00:04:17.180 --> 00:04:19.420 Yeah, the atmosphere. 00:04:19.420 --> 00:04:25.020 Now, in general terms, what was that entire weekend experience like for you? 00:04:25.100 --> 00:04:30.700 That week was so many different things. 00:04:31.020 --> 00:04:37.500 It was tough and it was exhausting at times. 00:04:38.320 --> 00:04:45.840 But it was so rich and deep and 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:54.680 I felt like I was tapping into something that I had never experienced before. 00:04:54.639 --> 00:05:03.280 Without sharing anything that you'd consider confidential, is there a particular memory or encounter from the rites that you're willing to share that captures what the event meant to you? 00:05:04.699 --> 00:05:18.139 I remember going out with my friend Matthew and we were in the woods, just the two of us, for a couple of hours and 00:05:19.020 --> 00:05:24.860 While we were out there, we split up and we sat by ourselves for a little bit. 00:05:24.860 --> 00:05:29.980 And we each had our own little adventure. 00:05:31.020 --> 00:05:39.660 We each had some kind of meaningful thing come to us, whether that was from just nature itself, the divine. 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:49.400 we each had some kind of impactful moment while we were out there together, when we had split up, and then we came back together 00:05:49.720 --> 00:05:52.520 And we kind of shared what had happened. 00:05:52.520 --> 00:05:55.960 And I just felt so bonded to him. 00:05:55.960 --> 00:05:59.960 And he's still my friend to this day. 00:05:59.960 --> 00:06:02.280 And I yeah, I think that's that was 00:06:03.020 --> 00:06:05.020 a very meaningful moment. 00:06:05.580 --> 00:06:14.860 Now, when you decided that you were going to attend these rites, how did your family, friends or community members, whoever you told, how did they respond to your decision to participate? 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:19.680 For the most part, people were very supportive. 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:25.600 I had already been involved with Illuman I got involved with Illuman in twenty nineteen 00:06:25.900 --> 00:06:29.820 And so this was five years later. 00:06:29.820 --> 00:06:37.660 So people that are close to me kind of knew a little bit about Illuman and the work that I was doing. 00:06:37.820 --> 00:06:48.620 I mean, of course, there were a few people that I would tell them that I was going to go to Canada for a week and do the rites of passage. 00:06:48.620 --> 00:06:51.180 And they were like, what the heck does that mean? 00:06:51.180 --> 00:06:51.580 Like. 00:06:52.260 --> 00:07:00.340 it seems like some couldn't wrap their head around what this it what this was all about, which I understand. 00:07:00.340 --> 00:07:01.620 It it can be kind of 00:07:02.100 --> 00:07:07.620 difficult to wrap your head around it if you've never been exposed to this kind of thing. 00:07:07.780 --> 00:07:12.260 I mean, we're not really exposed to initiation, quote unquote, in our 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:14.400 day to day lives. 00:07:14.400 --> 00:07:16.800 But n there were no negative reactions. 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:19.680 It was all very - I was very supported. 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:20.479 That's terrific. 00:07:20.479 --> 00:07:22.960 Did you feel any pressure? 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:24.479 From anyone to attend these rides? 00:07:24.479 --> 00:07:25.759 Anyone within Illuman? 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:26.800 Or was there any way? 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:29.840 I would not say that. 00:07:29.840 --> 00:07:33.759 I mean, obviously, at the time, I was working as the 00:07:34.420 --> 00:07:44.100 administrator for Illuman and I would be working with different quote unquote leaders in Illuman and different chapters and 00:07:44.539 --> 00:07:50.139 I would hear people talking about the rites and people would ask me, Oh, where did you do your rites? 00:07:50.139 --> 00:07:53.900 And I would have to be like, Oh, I haven't done my rites. 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:58.480 And so I guess there was a little bit of pressure from that aspect. 00:07:58.960 --> 00:08:03.040 It's just like, okay, I'm working for Illuman and I haven't done my rites. 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:04.400 Like that doesn't make sense. 00:08:04.400 --> 00:08:06.640 So I definitely have to do that. 00:08:06.520 --> 00:08:12.120 But that was it was always my plan whether I whether or not I was working for Illuman. 00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:14.120 I was going to do the rites of passage 00:08:14.320 --> 00:08:20.000 when you what were the circumstances like in your life at the time that you made the decision to go to the rites? 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:27.760 Was there anything obviously your involvement within Illuman, you felt like it was an experience you needed to have, wanted to have. 00:08:27.460 --> 00:08:28.180 But what else? 00:08:28.180 --> 00:08:32.500 What was going on in your life at that time that said, okay, now's the time to do this? 00:08:32.820 --> 00:08:34.260 Oh, my gosh. 00:08:34.580 --> 00:08:37.700 It was, I remember very vividly just 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:40.560 My life was extremely busy. 00:08:40.560 --> 00:08:47.440 I was constantly doing something for work or 00:08:48.400 --> 00:08:49.680 Something with friends. 00:08:49.680 --> 00:08:53.520 It just seemed like there were I never had any downtime. 00:08:53.920 --> 00:08:58.880 Not only was I working part-time for Illuman, I also had another full-time job. 00:08:58.520 --> 00:09:04.600 And so I'm working these two jobs, and the circumstances of that were tricky. 00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:11.320 I didn't have Internet at my house for the first six months where I was working from home. 00:09:11.020 --> 00:09:14.700 So that makes it hard to work from home when you don't have Internet. 00:09:14.700 --> 00:09:17.820 So I would stay at my other job. 00:09:17.820 --> 00:09:18.860 I would stay behind. 00:09:18.860 --> 00:09:20.940 I would go in early and I would stay behind. 00:09:20.940 --> 00:09:23.660 So I was having really long days 00:09:24.020 --> 00:09:29.460 It was a very, I want to say like spiritually inundated. 00:09:29.460 --> 00:09:33.940 I don't know if that's like a thing or a word, but I was just having a lot of 00:09:34.620 --> 00:09:36.540 powerful moments in my life. 00:09:36.540 --> 00:09:44.220 I worked at a shelter, and so I would work with people who were experiencing homelessness, addiction 00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:51.440 And that work is extremely rewarding, but it's also extremely intense. 00:09:51.760 --> 00:09:53.360 So I was having a lot of 00:09:54.100 --> 00:09:55.860 I guess serendipitous. 00:09:55.860 --> 00:10:01.060 I like to notice like serendipitous moments, like, oh, that's the universe is aligning in this way. 00:10:01.060 --> 00:10:05.540 And that's I recognize the importance of that. 00:10:05.680 --> 00:10:07.760 That just happened there, or something. 00:10:07.760 --> 00:10:11.440 So, a lot of serendipitous moments that I like that I would like to notice. 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:16.080 And I was also searching for something 00:10:17.460 --> 00:10:21.700 More as far as within myself. 00:10:21.700 --> 00:10:23.860 I was doing all these things. 00:10:23.860 --> 00:10:30.660 I wasn't, I had no free time and I was very busy and getting work done, but I still felt like 00:10:31.100 --> 00:10:37.100 I was not where I wanted to be mentally, spiritually. 00:10:37.420 --> 00:10:37.740 Yeah. 00:10:37.740 --> 00:10:41.180 So it was a really intense time in my life. 00:10:41.500 --> 00:10:45.100 I guess I can sum it up with that. 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:46.519 I appreciate that. 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:50.759 And I know you're part of a group, a council group, that meets in Rolla. 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:58.040 So there are some men, and you have some men that you meet with in community, and many of them those men have been on the rites of passage. 00:10:57.560 --> 00:11:01.880 I imagine they were fairly supportive of you know, what was their reaction to you going? 00:11:02.200 --> 00:11:03.240 Oh, absolutely. 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:06.920 They were uh very encouraging and 00:11:08.060 --> 00:11:13.580 Always, they would ask me if I needed anything or if I needed help getting there. 00:11:14.460 --> 00:11:19.260 Yeah, the guys in my council group, I think just about all of us have gone to a rites. 00:11:19.740 --> 00:11:20.300 We have 00:11:20.820 --> 00:11:27.540 I think there's eight of us that will meet, and maybe we have one or two that haven't gone yet. 00:11:27.540 --> 00:11:30.500 But yeah, my council group is very rich and very 00:11:31.400 --> 00:11:41.240 deep as far as Illuman involvement and going back all the way to two thousand eight, two thousand nine or something like that. 00:11:40.839 --> 00:11:51.480 So yeah, my counsel group was really helpful and kind of they also helped me kind of get an idea of what to expect a little bit without giving too much away. 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:53.240 Yeah, they were absolutely great. 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:57.480 You mentioned earlier being with a friend at the rites out in the woods. 00:11:57.480 --> 00:12:01.640 Did you travel with that friend to the rites, or was this somebody you met at the rites? 00:12:01.640 --> 00:12:04.440 No, this was somebody I met at the rites. 00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:07.160 I traveled alone for that. 00:12:07.160 --> 00:12:14.200 Not a lot of people from the Midwest going to the Pacific Northwest, Vancouver. 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:15.080 Yeah. 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:27.600 Let me ask you now when you arrived at the rites, at that moment, I imagine it's overwhelming in a lot of ways, just even if it was like you said, it was your first time your first experience in the Pacific Northwest. 00:12:27.220 --> 00:12:30.100 But was there something that you were hoping for going into the rites? 00:12:30.100 --> 00:12:34.340 Or was the was there something that you were looking at being initiated into? 00:12:34.660 --> 00:12:38.500 I was hoping for yes, I there was. 00:12:38.500 --> 00:12:40.740 I was hoping for a complete 00:12:41.220 --> 00:12:46.500 And radical and total shift in my way of thinking. 00:12:46.500 --> 00:12:50.820 I was hoping for something supernatural. 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:52.200 And something magical. 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:59.240 I was hoping that God was going to come down and like tell me exactly what's up, what's going on. 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:00.360 This is what's going on. 00:13:00.360 --> 00:13:02.360 This is what you need to do. 00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:11.920 And yeah, I was hoping for absolute clarity and perfection, which obviously I did not get. 00:13:13.620 --> 00:13:20.260 But nonetheless, you came away, I'm sure, with plenty of insight and things to 00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:23.120 To carry you forward, I guess. 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:24.560 But I oh, yeah. 00:13:24.560 --> 00:13:25.200 Go ahead, go ahead. 00:13:25.520 --> 00:13:26.080 Absolutely. 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:31.440 That it helped me realize how silly that was also to expect this 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:35.480 Messenger from God or something, you know? 00:13:35.800 --> 00:13:36.200 Yeah. 00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:38.839 I'm sure you weren't the only one there that that had that feeling. 00:13:38.839 --> 00:13:42.040 You know, you might have talked to other guys and they were expecting that as well. 00:13:42.740 --> 00:13:49.940 So conversely, we talked a little bit about what you're hoping for, but was there anything that you were fearing as you headed into that experience? 00:13:50.260 --> 00:13:51.620 Absolutely. 00:13:52.020 --> 00:13:53.380 I was fearing 00:13:54.300 --> 00:13:55.340 Oh my gosh. 00:13:55.340 --> 00:14:02.540 It's it I was fearing okay when I when I had my interview 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:12.360 I asked my interviewer, Brian Sullivan, I was like, okay, I have to ask this 'cause people ask me and say it all the time, like, is this a cult? 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:17.000 And I'm sure you've heard that before, like, oh, the Illuman cult or whatever. 00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:24.880 So I was fearing some kind of ick, you know, going and experiencing this 00:14:25.700 --> 00:14:32.740 fake, you know, cults of personality, I guess, or yeah, silliness. 00:14:33.060 --> 00:14:38.740 I was fearing it wouldn't be very impactful to me. 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:49.600 I was also fearing the vulnerability a little bit because working as the administrator, I'd kind of gotten glimpses into MROP and 00:14:50.040 --> 00:14:54.440 I saw I was able to see behind the curtain a little bit. 00:14:54.440 --> 00:15:02.120 And I knew that it was it seemed like there were going to be moments where I had to be really vulnerable, not only to others, but to myself. 00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:04.519 And I feared that a little bit. 00:15:04.740 --> 00:15:07.380 No, I appreciate you reflecting on that and sharing that. 00:15:08.100 --> 00:15:08.900 You're not the only one. 00:15:08.900 --> 00:15:11.460 We this is really the purview of what we're talking about here. 00:15:11.460 --> 00:15:16.660 But yes, as far as worried about that experience and what it's like, we live in a culture where there is 00:15:17.660 --> 00:15:24.860 there are a lot of cults and high demand groups is another term that is used for that sort of thing and they're often built around 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:27.440 Narcissistic leaders and things like that. 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:28.880 So I think that's legitimate. 00:15:28.880 --> 00:15:32.560 I think that's a legitimate question of fear that some men might have entering into this. 00:15:33.680 --> 00:15:35.680 Categorically, that's not what Illuman is about. 00:15:35.680 --> 00:15:37.279 And I think you learned that as well. 00:15:37.680 --> 00:15:39.120 Oh, yeah, absolutely. 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:39.839 Well, it's funny. 00:15:39.839 --> 00:15:42.080 It's funny to me now when people. 00:15:42.680 --> 00:15:47.720 Like, I have a friend that said after I came back from my trip last week, it was like, oh, how was your cult, me? 00:15:47.880 --> 00:15:55.720 It's funny to me now because it's just a Illuman is the farthest thing from a cult in my mind now after 00:15:56.440 --> 00:16:00.680 Because I've done some research, you know, I wanted to know, like, what is a cult? 00:16:00.680 --> 00:16:07.080 And I've watched some documentaries, and but yeah, that's outside of the outside of what we're talking about. 00:16:07.020 --> 00:16:09.740 I know, but I'm glad you mentioned that because you're the first guy that mentioned. 00:16:09.740 --> 00:16:16.940 I have a friend that when I went on rites of passage, his question now when I go to men's events, he'll say, is this one pants on or pants off? 00:16:16.820 --> 00:16:21.540 Because the image that some people have is that you're dancing naked or something around a fire. 00:16:21.540 --> 00:16:22.500 Those sorts of things. 00:16:22.500 --> 00:16:24.260 And I laugh. 00:16:24.260 --> 00:16:25.460 But yeah. 00:16:25.160 --> 00:16:33.800 We you know, it's it's just uh it just says something too about our society is like we d we really desire these these types of groups and experiences and things like that, but we're also very wary. 00:16:33.800 --> 00:16:34.360 There's a 00:16:34.560 --> 00:16:37.040 a history of abuse and issues yet here. 00:16:37.040 --> 00:16:38.800 So yeah, it's important. 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:40.080 Yeah, absolutely. 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:45.280 The vulnerability and this space that we go to 00:16:45.880 --> 00:16:54.440 leaves people open to being I don't it can it can leave people open to being manipulated or coerced or something 00:16:55.520 --> 00:16:59.680 But yeah, I've never had that experience with a Illuman. 00:16:59.680 --> 00:17:00.640 Yeah, so let me go. 00:17:00.640 --> 00:17:02.080 Let's go back into the rites a little bit. 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:06.640 And I want you to think back to the day it ended, you know, the closing ritual and 00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:09.240 Now it's time to get back home. 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:13.880 And how were you feeling immediately after the rites as you left? 00:17:14.199 --> 00:17:17.799 Immediately after I was tired. 00:17:17.540 --> 00:17:21.220 I remember being my body was exhausted. 00:17:21.220 --> 00:17:25.300 I had done a lot of tromping around the mountain. 00:17:25.300 --> 00:17:27.540 My legs and feet hurt. 00:17:27.540 --> 00:17:30.100 Mentally, I was. 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.520 I felt like I was primed. 00:17:34.080 --> 00:17:38.720 I was in a really good place as far as like. 00:17:39.320 --> 00:17:49.880 I felt like my empathy for others was heightened and my awareness of myself was heightened. 00:17:49.820 --> 00:17:57.900 I was really ready to get back and get back to my work with maybe a little bit of 00:17:58.600 --> 00:18:11.000 a little more of a conscious effort to protect myself a little bit instead of just going 100% all day, every day. 00:18:10.820 --> 00:18:16.580 And luckily I had scheduled a silent retreat right after my rites. 00:18:16.580 --> 00:18:21.780 So I came home for one night or so and then immediately left for like 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:24.320 three days to a silent retreat. 00:18:24.320 --> 00:18:31.280 And that helped me integrate and just really created a space for me to reflect on everything. 00:18:31.419 --> 00:18:39.740 So, yeah, I was I was ready to get back and to bring back what I had learned. 00:18:39.419 --> 00:18:40.620 Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. 00:18:40.620 --> 00:18:47.500 A lot of guys I've talked to, you know, maybe circumstances dictate this, but they come back. 00:18:47.040 --> 00:18:53.440 you know, on a Sunday and bam, Monday they're back to work and and that doesn't give them as much time to integrate and process. 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:58.000 So, yeah, it's definitely advisable if if men have that luxury. 00:18:57.360 --> 00:19:00.399 to create some space around the rites to take that space. 00:19:00.399 --> 00:19:04.480 I would say take some space entering the rites and take some space leaving if it's available to you. 00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:05.360 Yeah. 00:19:05.360 --> 00:19:07.440 I think that's a great idea. 00:19:07.019 --> 00:19:15.179 Yes, so since you since making your rites, what's changed in your life, thinking practically, relationally, even spiritually? 00:19:15.820 --> 00:19:16.460 Well, I 00:19:17.320 --> 00:19:20.200 Developed a love of poetry after that. 00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:26.040 And I really kind of understood why poetry is a thing. 00:19:26.040 --> 00:19:30.440 I never was, I was never really into poetry very much, but 00:19:30.820 --> 00:19:44.260 After experiencing poetry in a certain setting, I was able to, like, it helped me to go deeper, and so it awakened a love for poetry in me. 00:19:44.100 --> 00:19:56.820 It also, like I said, made made my empathy for others or even just my awareness of others outside of myself a little more prevalent. 00:19:56.780 --> 00:20:02.060 And it it helped me to be less me centered. 00:20:02.380 --> 00:20:05.260 I've always been a really selfish person. 00:20:05.600 --> 00:20:10.480 At least I feel now looking back, I guess. 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:18.000 And it just it's it's helped me to not be quite as selfish and to be a little more focused on others. 00:20:17.919 --> 00:20:22.000 I know there's a lot of ways it's it changed. 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:24.240 Let me tag a question onto that. 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:31.039 How is you mentioned that poetry was something that your appreciation for poetry was something you took away from the rites? 00:20:30.740 --> 00:20:33.460 How had the rites impacted your music? 00:20:33.780 --> 00:20:38.660 So when I came back, I immediately picked up my guitar and 00:20:39.760 --> 00:20:49.440 I think it was around that time actually that I started shifting from less of a performative playing because I've always I was always like, that's why you play music. 00:20:48.740 --> 00:20:57.780 It's to perform for people and it's to make people happy and so they can hear the beautiful sounds that you have created. 00:20:57.580 --> 00:21:07.500 But it really helped shift it to more of like I'm playing because I love music and because music is a powerful 00:21:08.679 --> 00:21:10.120 thing in this world. 00:21:10.120 --> 00:21:15.559 And even if I'm not playing for anybody but myself, it's I'm bringing in this 00:21:16.500 --> 00:21:24.820 energy and this these vibrations and the sound and letting it wash over me and 00:21:26.180 --> 00:21:34.900 I play for myself a bit more now, and just music for the love of music. 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:35.559 That's wonderful. 00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:43.399 Now you mentioned before the rites you told some people in your life that you were going to the rites and generally, it sounds like they were awfully supportive. 00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:47.799 How did those conversations change after the rites when they asked you what was that like? 00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:48.919 How was that experience? 00:21:49.300 --> 00:21:56.260 When you mention ritual to someone, you will get a variety of reactions. 00:21:57.600 --> 00:22:01.519 Some people react to that word negatively. 00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:07.679 They think of like scary Hollywood rituals of 00:22:08.300 --> 00:22:09.820 scary stuff. 00:22:09.820 --> 00:22:14.060 And so there were there was a little bit of that when I was when I told people what we did. 00:22:14.060 --> 00:22:16.860 It's like a mix of nature 00:22:17.620 --> 00:22:20.180 Story, poetry, ritual. 00:22:20.180 --> 00:22:21.940 No wait, ritual. 00:22:21.940 --> 00:22:26.260 And then you can't really explain the 00:22:26.919 --> 00:22:35.400 Process of the ritual, like, oh, okay, this guy did this, and then this guy did this, and they made these things, because it doesn't translate really very well 00:22:36.019 --> 00:22:44.340 So that was a that was just a funny that would be a funny interaction when I mentioned ritual to people. 00:22:44.300 --> 00:22:46.940 I think I don't really know. 00:22:46.940 --> 00:22:51.260 I don't know how people perceived me afterwards. 00:22:51.919 --> 00:22:54.000 if they were if they like noticed a change. 00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:58.000 I like to think they noticed a change because I felt different. 00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:00.720 And maybe they thought like, oh, he's a little different. 00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:03.120 He's maybe got a little more 00:23:03.820 --> 00:23:09.340 Happiness step or a little more intention with his actions and his words. 00:23:09.340 --> 00:23:10.700 That's what I hope for. 00:23:10.700 --> 00:23:12.460 That makes sense now. 00:23:12.040 --> 00:23:19.800 When you heard the terms masculinity, initiation, sort of the male purpose in life, you probably had thoughts about that prior to the rites. 00:23:19.800 --> 00:23:25.240 Has anything shifted when I mentioned those terms now, masculinity, initiation, the male purpose? 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:26.800 Absolutely. 00:23:27.120 --> 00:23:36.960 Thinking back on my understanding of masculinity, it just is a complete shift. 00:23:36.780 --> 00:23:50.220 in the past I had thought of you you know, you think of masculinity masculinity how Hollywood or social media or um society projects it, like strong 00:23:51.120 --> 00:23:56.000 protector, provider, and then there's toxic masculinity. 00:23:56.320 --> 00:23:59.520 But now as I when I think of masculinity, I think of a more 00:24:00.380 --> 00:24:02.940 Integrated wholeness. 00:24:02.940 --> 00:24:07.420 And I still I mean, I still think of protecting and 00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:10.960 strength, but I don't know. 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:18.480 The t the term masculinity, masculinity and I mean femininity is the other side of that. 00:24:19.320 --> 00:24:23.800 it's such loaded language in our society nowadays. 00:24:24.280 --> 00:24:27.800 But yeah, masculinity to me now is something more of 00:24:28.679 --> 00:24:31.960 A wholeness, a sacred thing. 00:24:31.960 --> 00:24:36.360 So the other word that you mentioned was initiation. 00:24:36.679 --> 00:24:41.639 And in the past, initiation to me was, I mean, 00:24:41.820 --> 00:24:43.980 it didn't have much of a meaning. 00:24:43.980 --> 00:24:53.260 I guess when I would have thought of initiation, I would have thought of a fraternity, maybe their hell week where the 00:24:54.019 --> 00:25:00.659 initiates go through hell to finally be welcomed into the fraternity. 00:25:01.220 --> 00:25:07.539 But at at the right, it's it's started to become more obvious that this isn't some 00:25:08.419 --> 00:25:11.620 This isn't some group I'm being initiated into. 00:25:11.620 --> 00:25:15.059 I'm not being initiated into a Illuman. 00:25:15.380 --> 00:25:18.500 I am being initiated into 00:25:19.580 --> 00:25:23.260 Almost adulthood, in a way, it feels like. 00:25:23.580 --> 00:25:26.220 But I don't even think that's a good word for it. 00:25:26.220 --> 00:25:27.419 It's almost like 00:25:27.880 --> 00:25:38.040 Initiated into my human wholeness or my potential, or yeah, and then being initiated with 00:25:38.600 --> 00:25:44.760 Eighty other brothers around you, it it adds this connection and this bond. 00:25:44.760 --> 00:25:51.000 So the initiation aspect and the idea of initiation 00:25:51.840 --> 00:25:58.480 Is a completely different idea than what I had four years ago, three years ago. 00:25:58.480 --> 00:25:59.679 Yeah, it's something more 00:26:00.500 --> 00:26:07.700 something more real and something internal rather than external, I guess. 00:26:08.020 --> 00:26:08.740 No, absolutely. 00:26:08.740 --> 00:26:12.820 I liked what the term you used or the phrase you said, human wholeness. 00:26:12.980 --> 00:26:14.820 That's really beautiful. 00:26:14.419 --> 00:26:20.340 So what counsel, what advice would you give to a man who is discerning whether or not to participate in the rites? 00:26:20.340 --> 00:26:24.340 And I think you might have a voice, especially for younger men. 00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:26.520 men that we we say are still in their first half of life. 00:26:26.520 --> 00:26:30.040 I mean, how would you tell uh, you know, counsel them about attending the rites? 00:26:30.360 --> 00:26:31.880 I would say to 00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:42.919 prepare yourself and not like you know you're not gonna you don't have to like work out and like go hiking twenty miles and 00:26:43.340 --> 00:26:45.820 Get ready to survive in the wilderness. 00:26:45.820 --> 00:26:49.820 I'm thinking more of like a spiritual preparation. 00:26:49.820 --> 00:26:55.260 Maybe read into yeah you could always read into Richard Rohr. 00:26:55.260 --> 00:26:57.179 He's a good resource for that. 00:26:57.320 --> 00:27:07.880 The cave in the fire that Ned does is a great place to kind of get an understanding of what work are we actually doing. 00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:14.840 I would say read some poetry, listen to some music, try to meditate. 00:27:14.840 --> 00:27:18.280 And I would say if you're thinking about doing it 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:23.440 then you probably should. 00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:29.120 If you're thinking about doing it, you I can almost guarantee you will 00:27:29.900 --> 00:27:34.300 gets I hate to say benefit, but you will get some benefit from doing it. 00:27:34.300 --> 00:27:34.780 Yeah. 00:27:34.780 --> 00:27:40.060 And then if you have somebody that has gone through it, maybe talk to them. 00:27:39.620 --> 00:27:44.820 It's never a bad idea to get counsel from a wise elder. 00:27:44.820 --> 00:27:53.700 If you're thinking about doing the rites of passage, go to your wise elder and tell them what you're feeling and thinking around that. 00:27:53.419 --> 00:27:55.020 Just one more question for you. 00:27:55.020 --> 00:27:59.260 So Brody, if you don't mind sharing with us, what led you to Illuman in the first place? 00:27:59.419 --> 00:28:04.299 You said that you first came into contact with the community in 2019. 00:28:03.740 --> 00:28:04.460 How'd that happen? 00:28:04.620 --> 00:28:05.260 Why did that happen? 00:28:05.260 --> 00:28:07.100 Why'd you make that connection? 00:28:07.340 --> 00:28:11.500 So it was, I've told this story a couple times, but it was. 00:28:11.540 --> 00:28:17.780 I was a first responder firefighter in this tiny little community that I grew up in. 00:28:17.780 --> 00:28:21.780 And we responded to a four wheeler wreck on the highway. 00:28:21.780 --> 00:28:25.700 And a man that I had known my whole life 00:28:26.100 --> 00:28:30.500 Had rectus four-wheeler, and he had died there. 00:28:30.500 --> 00:28:35.139 And it was just a really shocking and traumatic event. 00:28:35.139 --> 00:28:35.620 And it 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:39.120 It left me just stunned. 00:28:39.120 --> 00:28:41.440 I was absolutely stunned. 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:48.800 So I got home that day and just sitting around, and my friend Paul Koch calls me up 00:28:49.100 --> 00:28:52.139 Just randomly out of the blue. 00:28:52.460 --> 00:29:00.860 He said, Hey, next month or whenever it was, we're going to New Mexico to something called Soularize. 00:29:00.620 --> 00:29:03.260 And I was like, okay, I have no idea what that means. 00:29:03.260 --> 00:29:05.180 Never been to New Mexico. 00:29:05.180 --> 00:29:07.180 I would like to check it out. 00:29:07.420 --> 00:29:13.100 And he told me a little bit about Illuman, and I was like, sure, why not? 00:29:13.560 --> 00:29:21.160 I was just like in a in a dazed stupor, and just I agreed to it then, and 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:24.240 Yeah, after that, I gave it a little more thought. 00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:25.600 I kind of went back and forth. 00:29:25.600 --> 00:29:28.799 I was like, I don't know what is in New Mexico. 00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:30.720 Why would I go to this? 00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:34.080 But I just, something told me I should. 00:29:34.040 --> 00:29:38.120 And so I just went with it and drove down to New Mexico. 00:29:38.120 --> 00:29:39.240 We were in a big van. 00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:40.920 It was Paul Koch. 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:43.480 Belden Lane was in the vehicle with us. 00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:44.360 I didn't know 00:29:44.740 --> 00:29:48.260 who he was at the time, Ryan Santons. 00:29:48.260 --> 00:29:56.020 Yeah, there was like I think there were seven of us packed in this van, and we road tripped down to Albuquerque. 00:29:56.040 --> 00:30:01.640 And I got to Soularize, and it was like, what is going on here? 00:30:01.960 --> 00:30:03.720 Who are these guys? 00:30:04.280 --> 00:30:10.040 Why are they why are - how are they loving like this? 00:30:10.040 --> 00:30:11.160 Is this real? 00:30:12.280 --> 00:30:14.760 I I remember doing we had these 00:30:15.419 --> 00:30:25.980 concentric rings, and the outside was running, and the next inner ring was walking backwards, and then the two inner rings were doing something else. 00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:27.580 And I was like, This is great. 00:30:27.580 --> 00:30:28.299 And I'm like 00:30:29.280 --> 00:30:36.160 Experiencing ritual for the first time, really on a deep physical level. 00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:37.040 And I 00:30:38.100 --> 00:30:41.539 Richard spoke during that Soularize. 00:30:41.539 --> 00:30:47.380 Jim Taylor was the main convener, and I was just in love with Jim Taylor. 00:30:47.380 --> 00:30:49.460 I was like, this guy is awesome. 00:30:49.460 --> 00:30:51.779 He told us the story of Iron John. 00:30:52.280 --> 00:30:58.280 And it was just the greatest one of the greatest weekends I had ever had. 00:30:58.280 --> 00:31:00.280 I enjoyed myself so much and just 00:31:00.540 --> 00:31:07.980 Felt like I unlocked something and I came home and I had this glow for months and 00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:13.320 Yeah, that set me down the path of Illuman. 00:31:13.320 --> 00:31:17.000 I had already been, you know, spiritual or 00:31:17.919 --> 00:31:21.760 I've always been a seeker trying to figure out what's really going on here. 00:31:21.760 --> 00:31:24.960 And yeah, so that opened up a Illuman to me. 00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:25.279 And 00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:32.160 the the tools and the work that these guys are all doing together. 00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:35.200 And yeah, literally changed my life. 00:31:34.919 --> 00:31:35.480 Yeah. 00:31:35.480 --> 00:31:39.559 I mean, I think back to my first Soularize and I remember the drumming, right? 00:31:39.559 --> 00:31:43.240 You know, yes, a couple hundred men at least drumming. 00:31:43.260 --> 00:31:44.539 It's pretty amazing, isn't it? 00:31:44.539 --> 00:31:45.020 Yeah. 00:31:45.020 --> 00:31:45.580 Yes. 00:31:45.900 --> 00:31:48.940 So before we sign off, let me just open the floor to you. 00:31:48.940 --> 00:31:51.020 And is there anything you want to say? 00:31:51.020 --> 00:31:54.460 Anything else you would like to add, either from your own experience or 00:31:54.940 --> 00:31:58.779 Even is your role as administrators, is there anything that you would like to share? 00:31:58.779 --> 00:32:05.980 Or especially to younger men, maybe men that are kind of still in first half of life but like you are spiritually seeking. 00:32:06.299 --> 00:32:08.460 Do you have any messages for them? 00:32:08.220 --> 00:32:17.180 Yeah, I would say one of the best things that ever happened to me was gaining access to elders. 00:32:17.180 --> 00:32:22.620 And I love my dad, and he is an elder to me. 00:32:22.660 --> 00:32:31.380 But having others, not just my dad, having other voices that I could trust. 00:32:31.360 --> 00:32:37.040 Was incredibly is, continues to be incredibly valued to me, valuable to me. 00:32:37.040 --> 00:32:44.560 So I would really recommend younger men get connected with someone you consider wise. 00:32:44.800 --> 00:32:50.880 And I it's pretty easy to do in a Illuman going to a men's rites of passage. 00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:54.320 You will be confronted with 00:32:54.900 --> 00:32:58.100 That you will have options for elders. 00:32:58.900 --> 00:33:01.220 I hate to say it's not like a buffet or something. 00:33:01.220 --> 00:33:05.060 It's like the elder meant for you. 00:33:05.600 --> 00:33:08.080 Maybe in your life right now. 00:33:08.080 --> 00:33:13.519 And just if it feels like there's something blocking you 00:33:13.820 --> 00:33:21.420 Or you just have gone as far as you can get and it just doesn't seem like you can get any farther. 00:33:21.420 --> 00:33:24.460 Being in relation with other people 00:33:25.320 --> 00:33:27.720 can help to unlock that, I think. 00:33:28.040 --> 00:33:29.240 Thank you so much. 00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:31.160 Brody, I want to thank you deeply. 00:33:31.160 --> 00:33:35.240 Thank you for your honesty, your courage and for giving us a window into your 00:33:35.360 --> 00:33:37.760 MROP experience and b beyond. 00:33:37.760 --> 00:33:38.720 I love you, brother. 00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:39.600 I love you, too. 00:33:39.600 --> 00:33:40.240 This was so fun. 00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:41.360 Thank you so much. 00:33:41.360 --> 00:33:44.159 I'll see you at Awaken this year, if not sooner. 00:33:43.660 --> 00:33:44.780 Yep, sounds good. 00:33:44.780 --> 00:33:52.780 For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. 00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:59.440 The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six. 00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:06.400 While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since twenty twelve a Illuman has been the steward of this work. 00:34:06.040 --> 00:34:08.920 Preserving and Adapting the Rites for Men All Over the World. 00:34:08.920 --> 00:34:15.080 To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return. 00:34:14.080 --> 00:34:15.200 by Richard Rohr. 00:34:15.200 --> 00:34:21.440 If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six. 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:25.520 The first is in Northern California, May thirteenth through the seventeenth. 00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:31.320 the second in the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth, and in Illinois, August twelfth through the sixteenth. 00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:35.480 There's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth. 00:34:35.059 --> 00:34:42.099 And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is an MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth. 00:34:42.419 --> 00:34:45.859 You can find details and registration information at Illuman dot 00:34:46.020 --> 00:34:47.700 org slash mrop 00:34:48.220 --> 00:34:50.940 or Illuman dot org slash events. 00:34:50.940 --> 00:34:59.020 Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico. 00:34:59.020 --> 00:35:02.619 You can find more at Illuman dot org slash awaken. 00:35:02.980 --> 00:35:06.580 Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence. 00:35:06.580 --> 00:35:12.500 If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life. 00:35:11.859 --> 00:35:17.619 Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence dot org slash app. 00:35:17.619 --> 00:35:22.579 It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today. 00:35:22.240 --> 00:35:25.520 Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP. 00:35:25.520 --> 00:35:28.400 Until next time, brothers, stay present.