Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation.
My name is Brian Mueller.
I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen.
I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story.
This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what changed afterward.
Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude.
This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence.
We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence.
In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now.
If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot
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Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul.
On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path.
Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him.
My guest today is Brody Fulk.
Brother, I'm really glad you're here.
Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Brody, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days.
I am in central Missouri in Rolla and I like to play music.
I've been
A musician my whole life.
And right now I'm playing a lot of guitar and singing and just
having fun with that.
Um, I also like to go out into the woods.
I live a little bit outside of town and I like to hunt for mushrooms and just be in the woods.
We also have some really nice rivers here in central Missouri, and we like to go floating, where we take a kayak or canoe down the river and
swim and have a good time.
Yeah, that's what I mainly do with my free time.
Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage.
The MROP is a unique experience.
It's not a retreat or a workshop.
It's an initiation.
Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name.
Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning.
When and where did you make your rites?
So I made my rites in twenty-twenty four in DeRoche, and it was the first rites in Canada.
We were about two hours east of Vancouver.
Our location was overlooking the Fraser Valley.
A beautiful, beautiful place.
My first time ever in the Pacific Northwest.
Who was the weaver and about how many men were there?
So Ned Abben Roth was our weaver, and we had a huge group actually.
I think in total, initiators and
Initiates, there were around eighty.
And when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image or feeling that comes forth for you?
The first image that comes to me is overlooking the Fraser Valley.
I remember standing out on the big deck and you could see the Fraser Valley in front of you, and it just
expanded for miles and you could turn your head and we were sitting on the edge of the mountain.
With giant trees, giant moss.
And I remember really when we got there, we get out of our cars and it started immediately.
And we started walking through the forest and it was my first time seeing the Pacific Northwest forest.
And so the giant moss, the giant trees, just rich, lush.
Yeah, the atmosphere.
Now, in general terms, what was that entire weekend experience like for you?
That week was so many different things.
It was tough and it was exhausting at times.
But it was so rich and deep and
I felt like I was tapping into something that I had never experienced before.
Without sharing anything that you'd consider confidential, is there a particular memory or encounter from the rites that you're willing to share that captures what the event meant to you?
I remember going out with my friend Matthew and we were in the woods, just the two of us, for a couple of hours and
While we were out there, we split up and we sat by ourselves for a little bit.
And we each had our own little adventure.
We each had some kind of meaningful thing come to us, whether that was from just nature itself, the divine.
we each had some kind of impactful moment while we were out there together, when we had split up, and then we came back together
And we kind of shared what had happened.
And I just felt so bonded to him.
And he's still my friend to this day.
And I yeah, I think that's that was
a very meaningful moment.
Now, when you decided that you were going to attend these rites, how did your family, friends or community members, whoever you told, how did they respond to your decision to participate?
For the most part, people were very supportive.
I had already been involved with Illuman I got involved with Illuman in twenty nineteen
And so this was five years later.
So people that are close to me kind of knew a little bit about Illuman and the work that I was doing.
I mean, of course, there were a few people that I would tell them that I was going to go to Canada for a week and do the rites of passage.
And they were like, what the heck does that mean?
Like.
it seems like some couldn't wrap their head around what this it what this was all about, which I understand.
It it can be kind of
difficult to wrap your head around it if you've never been exposed to this kind of thing.
I mean, we're not really exposed to initiation, quote unquote, in our
day to day lives.
But n there were no negative reactions.
It was all very - I was very supported.
That's terrific.
Did you feel any pressure?
From anyone to attend these rides?
Anyone within Illuman?
Or was there any way?
I would not say that.
I mean, obviously, at the time, I was working as the
administrator for Illuman and I would be working with different quote unquote leaders in Illuman and different chapters and
I would hear people talking about the rites and people would ask me, Oh, where did you do your rites?
And I would have to be like, Oh, I haven't done my rites.
And so I guess there was a little bit of pressure from that aspect.
It's just like, okay, I'm working for Illuman and I haven't done my rites.
Like that doesn't make sense.
So I definitely have to do that.
But that was it was always my plan whether I whether or not I was working for Illuman.
I was going to do the rites of passage
when you what were the circumstances like in your life at the time that you made the decision to go to the rites?
Was there anything obviously your involvement within Illuman, you felt like it was an experience you needed to have, wanted to have.
But what else?
What was going on in your life at that time that said, okay, now's the time to do this?
Oh, my gosh.
It was, I remember very vividly just
My life was extremely busy.
I was constantly doing something for work or
Something with friends.
It just seemed like there were I never had any downtime.
Not only was I working part-time for Illuman, I also had another full-time job.
And so I'm working these two jobs, and the circumstances of that were tricky.
I didn't have Internet at my house for the first six months where I was working from home.
So that makes it hard to work from home when you don't have Internet.
So I would stay at my other job.
I would stay behind.
I would go in early and I would stay behind.
So I was having really long days
It was a very, I want to say like spiritually inundated.
I don't know if that's like a thing or a word, but I was just having a lot of
powerful moments in my life.
I worked at a shelter, and so I would work with people who were experiencing homelessness, addiction
And that work is extremely rewarding, but it's also extremely intense.
So I was having a lot of
I guess serendipitous.
I like to notice like serendipitous moments, like, oh, that's the universe is aligning in this way.
And that's I recognize the importance of that.
That just happened there, or something.
So, a lot of serendipitous moments that I like that I would like to notice.
And I was also searching for something
More as far as within myself.
I was doing all these things.
I wasn't, I had no free time and I was very busy and getting work done, but I still felt like
I was not where I wanted to be mentally, spiritually.
Yeah.
So it was a really intense time in my life.
I guess I can sum it up with that.
I appreciate that.
And I know you're part of a group, a council group, that meets in Rolla.
So there are some men, and you have some men that you meet with in community, and many of them those men have been on the rites of passage.
I imagine they were fairly supportive of you know, what was their reaction to you going?
Oh, absolutely.
They were uh very encouraging and
Always, they would ask me if I needed anything or if I needed help getting there.
Yeah, the guys in my council group, I think just about all of us have gone to a rites.
We have
I think there's eight of us that will meet, and maybe we have one or two that haven't gone yet.
But yeah, my council group is very rich and very
deep as far as Illuman involvement and going back all the way to two thousand eight, two thousand nine or something like that.
So yeah, my counsel group was really helpful and kind of they also helped me kind of get an idea of what to expect a little bit without giving too much away.
Yeah, they were absolutely great.
You mentioned earlier being with a friend at the rites out in the woods.
Did you travel with that friend to the rites, or was this somebody you met at the rites?
No, this was somebody I met at the rites.
I traveled alone for that.
Not a lot of people from the Midwest going to the Pacific Northwest, Vancouver.
Yeah.
Let me ask you now when you arrived at the rites, at that moment, I imagine it's overwhelming in a lot of ways, just even if it was like you said, it was your first time your first experience in the Pacific Northwest.
But was there something that you were hoping for going into the rites?
Or was the was there something that you were looking at being initiated into?
I was hoping for yes, I there was.
I was hoping for a complete
And radical and total shift in my way of thinking.
I was hoping for something supernatural.
And something magical.
I was hoping that God was going to come down and like tell me exactly what's up, what's going on.
This is what's going on.
This is what you need to do.
And yeah, I was hoping for absolute clarity and perfection, which obviously I did not get.
But nonetheless, you came away, I'm sure, with plenty of insight and things to
To carry you forward, I guess.
But I oh, yeah.
Go ahead, go ahead.
Absolutely.
That it helped me realize how silly that was also to expect this
Messenger from God or something, you know?
Yeah.
I'm sure you weren't the only one there that that had that feeling.
You know, you might have talked to other guys and they were expecting that as well.
So conversely, we talked a little bit about what you're hoping for, but was there anything that you were fearing as you headed into that experience?
Absolutely.
I was fearing
Oh my gosh.
It's it I was fearing okay when I when I had my interview
I asked my interviewer, Brian Sullivan, I was like, okay, I have to ask this 'cause people ask me and say it all the time, like, is this a cult?
And I'm sure you've heard that before, like, oh, the Illuman cult or whatever.
So I was fearing some kind of ick, you know, going and experiencing this
fake, you know, cults of personality, I guess, or yeah, silliness.
I was fearing it wouldn't be very impactful to me.
I was also fearing the vulnerability a little bit because working as the administrator, I'd kind of gotten glimpses into MROP and
I saw I was able to see behind the curtain a little bit.
And I knew that it was it seemed like there were going to be moments where I had to be really vulnerable, not only to others, but to myself.
And I feared that a little bit.
No, I appreciate you reflecting on that and sharing that.
You're not the only one.
We this is really the purview of what we're talking about here.
But yes, as far as worried about that experience and what it's like, we live in a culture where there is
there are a lot of cults and high demand groups is another term that is used for that sort of thing and they're often built around
Narcissistic leaders and things like that.
So I think that's legitimate.
I think that's a legitimate question of fear that some men might have entering into this.
Categorically, that's not what Illuman is about.
And I think you learned that as well.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Well, it's funny.
It's funny to me now when people.
Like, I have a friend that said after I came back from my trip last week, it was like, oh, how was your cult, me?
It's funny to me now because it's just a Illuman is the farthest thing from a cult in my mind now after
Because I've done some research, you know, I wanted to know, like, what is a cult?
And I've watched some documentaries, and but yeah, that's outside of the outside of what we're talking about.
I know, but I'm glad you mentioned that because you're the first guy that mentioned.
I have a friend that when I went on rites of passage, his question now when I go to men's events, he'll say, is this one pants on or pants off?
Because the image that some people have is that you're dancing naked or something around a fire.
Those sorts of things.
And I laugh.
But yeah.
We you know, it's it's just uh it just says something too about our society is like we d we really desire these these types of groups and experiences and things like that, but we're also very wary.
There's a
a history of abuse and issues yet here.
So yeah, it's important.
Yeah, absolutely.
The vulnerability and this space that we go to
leaves people open to being I don't it can it can leave people open to being manipulated or coerced or something
But yeah, I've never had that experience with a Illuman.
Yeah, so let me go.
Let's go back into the rites a little bit.
And I want you to think back to the day it ended, you know, the closing ritual and
Now it's time to get back home.
And how were you feeling immediately after the rites as you left?
Immediately after I was tired.
I remember being my body was exhausted.
I had done a lot of tromping around the mountain.
My legs and feet hurt.
Mentally, I was.
I felt like I was primed.
I was in a really good place as far as like.
I felt like my empathy for others was heightened and my awareness of myself was heightened.
I was really ready to get back and get back to my work with maybe a little bit of
a little more of a conscious effort to protect myself a little bit instead of just going 100% all day, every day.
And luckily I had scheduled a silent retreat right after my rites.
So I came home for one night or so and then immediately left for like
three days to a silent retreat.
And that helped me integrate and just really created a space for me to reflect on everything.
So, yeah, I was I was ready to get back and to bring back what I had learned.
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that.
A lot of guys I've talked to, you know, maybe circumstances dictate this, but they come back.
you know, on a Sunday and bam, Monday they're back to work and and that doesn't give them as much time to integrate and process.
So, yeah, it's definitely advisable if if men have that luxury.
to create some space around the rites to take that space.
I would say take some space entering the rites and take some space leaving if it's available to you.
Yeah.
I think that's a great idea.
Yes, so since you since making your rites, what's changed in your life, thinking practically, relationally, even spiritually?
Well, I
Developed a love of poetry after that.
And I really kind of understood why poetry is a thing.
I never was, I was never really into poetry very much, but
After experiencing poetry in a certain setting, I was able to, like, it helped me to go deeper, and so it awakened a love for poetry in me.
It also, like I said, made made my empathy for others or even just my awareness of others outside of myself a little more prevalent.
And it it helped me to be less me centered.
I've always been a really selfish person.
At least I feel now looking back, I guess.
And it just it's it's helped me to not be quite as selfish and to be a little more focused on others.
I know there's a lot of ways it's it changed.
Let me tag a question onto that.
How is you mentioned that poetry was something that your appreciation for poetry was something you took away from the rites?
How had the rites impacted your music?
So when I came back, I immediately picked up my guitar and
I think it was around that time actually that I started shifting from less of a performative playing because I've always I was always like, that's why you play music.
It's to perform for people and it's to make people happy and so they can hear the beautiful sounds that you have created.
But it really helped shift it to more of like I'm playing because I love music and because music is a powerful
thing in this world.
And even if I'm not playing for anybody but myself, it's I'm bringing in this
energy and this these vibrations and the sound and letting it wash over me and
I play for myself a bit more now, and just music for the love of music.
That's wonderful.
Now you mentioned before the rites you told some people in your life that you were going to the rites and generally, it sounds like they were awfully supportive.
How did those conversations change after the rites when they asked you what was that like?
How was that experience?
When you mention ritual to someone, you will get a variety of reactions.
Some people react to that word negatively.
They think of like scary Hollywood rituals of
scary stuff.
And so there were there was a little bit of that when I was when I told people what we did.
It's like a mix of nature
Story, poetry, ritual.
No wait, ritual.
And then you can't really explain the
Process of the ritual, like, oh, okay, this guy did this, and then this guy did this, and they made these things, because it doesn't translate really very well
So that was a that was just a funny that would be a funny interaction when I mentioned ritual to people.
I think I don't really know.
I don't know how people perceived me afterwards.
if they were if they like noticed a change.
I like to think they noticed a change because I felt different.
And maybe they thought like, oh, he's a little different.
He's maybe got a little more
Happiness step or a little more intention with his actions and his words.
That's what I hope for.
That makes sense now.
When you heard the terms masculinity, initiation, sort of the male purpose in life, you probably had thoughts about that prior to the rites.
Has anything shifted when I mentioned those terms now, masculinity, initiation, the male purpose?
Absolutely.
Thinking back on my understanding of masculinity, it just is a complete shift.
in the past I had thought of you you know, you think of masculinity masculinity how Hollywood or social media or um society projects it, like strong
protector, provider, and then there's toxic masculinity.
But now as I when I think of masculinity, I think of a more
Integrated wholeness.
And I still I mean, I still think of protecting and
strength, but I don't know.
The t the term masculinity, masculinity and I mean femininity is the other side of that.
it's such loaded language in our society nowadays.
But yeah, masculinity to me now is something more of
A wholeness, a sacred thing.
So the other word that you mentioned was initiation.
And in the past, initiation to me was, I mean,
it didn't have much of a meaning.
I guess when I would have thought of initiation, I would have thought of a fraternity, maybe their hell week where the
initiates go through hell to finally be welcomed into the fraternity.
But at at the right, it's it's started to become more obvious that this isn't some
This isn't some group I'm being initiated into.
I'm not being initiated into a Illuman.
I am being initiated into
Almost adulthood, in a way, it feels like.
But I don't even think that's a good word for it.
It's almost like
Initiated into my human wholeness or my potential, or yeah, and then being initiated with
Eighty other brothers around you, it it adds this connection and this bond.
So the initiation aspect and the idea of initiation
Is a completely different idea than what I had four years ago, three years ago.
Yeah, it's something more
something more real and something internal rather than external, I guess.
No, absolutely.
I liked what the term you used or the phrase you said, human wholeness.
That's really beautiful.
So what counsel, what advice would you give to a man who is discerning whether or not to participate in the rites?
And I think you might have a voice, especially for younger men.
men that we we say are still in their first half of life.
I mean, how would you tell uh, you know, counsel them about attending the rites?
I would say to
prepare yourself and not like you know you're not gonna you don't have to like work out and like go hiking twenty miles and
Get ready to survive in the wilderness.
I'm thinking more of like a spiritual preparation.
Maybe read into yeah you could always read into Richard Rohr.
He's a good resource for that.
The cave in the fire that Ned does is a great place to kind of get an understanding of what work are we actually doing.
I would say read some poetry, listen to some music, try to meditate.
And I would say if you're thinking about doing it
then you probably should.
If you're thinking about doing it, you I can almost guarantee you will
gets I hate to say benefit, but you will get some benefit from doing it.
Yeah.
And then if you have somebody that has gone through it, maybe talk to them.
It's never a bad idea to get counsel from a wise elder.
If you're thinking about doing the rites of passage, go to your wise elder and tell them what you're feeling and thinking around that.
Just one more question for you.
So Brody, if you don't mind sharing with us, what led you to Illuman in the first place?
You said that you first came into contact with the community in 2019.
How'd that happen?
Why did that happen?
Why'd you make that connection?
So it was, I've told this story a couple times, but it was.
I was a first responder firefighter in this tiny little community that I grew up in.
And we responded to a four wheeler wreck on the highway.
And a man that I had known my whole life
Had rectus four-wheeler, and he had died there.
And it was just a really shocking and traumatic event.
And it
It left me just stunned.
I was absolutely stunned.
So I got home that day and just sitting around, and my friend Paul Koch calls me up
Just randomly out of the blue.
He said, Hey, next month or whenever it was, we're going to New Mexico to something called Soularize.
And I was like, okay, I have no idea what that means.
Never been to New Mexico.
I would like to check it out.
And he told me a little bit about Illuman, and I was like, sure, why not?
I was just like in a in a dazed stupor, and just I agreed to it then, and
Yeah, after that, I gave it a little more thought.
I kind of went back and forth.
I was like, I don't know what is in New Mexico.
Why would I go to this?
But I just, something told me I should.
And so I just went with it and drove down to New Mexico.
We were in a big van.
It was Paul Koch.
Belden Lane was in the vehicle with us.
I didn't know
who he was at the time, Ryan Santons.
Yeah, there was like I think there were seven of us packed in this van, and we road tripped down to Albuquerque.
And I got to Soularize, and it was like, what is going on here?
Who are these guys?
Why are they why are - how are they loving like this?
Is this real?
I I remember doing we had these
concentric rings, and the outside was running, and the next inner ring was walking backwards, and then the two inner rings were doing something else.
And I was like, This is great.
And I'm like
Experiencing ritual for the first time, really on a deep physical level.
And I
Richard spoke during that Soularize.
Jim Taylor was the main convener, and I was just in love with Jim Taylor.
I was like, this guy is awesome.
He told us the story of Iron John.
And it was just the greatest one of the greatest weekends I had ever had.
I enjoyed myself so much and just
Felt like I unlocked something and I came home and I had this glow for months and
Yeah, that set me down the path of Illuman.
I had already been, you know, spiritual or
I've always been a seeker trying to figure out what's really going on here.
And yeah, so that opened up a Illuman to me.
And
the the tools and the work that these guys are all doing together.
And yeah, literally changed my life.
Yeah.
I mean, I think back to my first Soularize and I remember the drumming, right?
You know, yes, a couple hundred men at least drumming.
It's pretty amazing, isn't it?
Yeah.
Yes.
So before we sign off, let me just open the floor to you.
And is there anything you want to say?
Anything else you would like to add, either from your own experience or
Even is your role as administrators, is there anything that you would like to share?
Or especially to younger men, maybe men that are kind of still in first half of life but like you are spiritually seeking.
Do you have any messages for them?
Yeah, I would say one of the best things that ever happened to me was gaining access to elders.
And I love my dad, and he is an elder to me.
But having others, not just my dad, having other voices that I could trust.
Was incredibly is, continues to be incredibly valued to me, valuable to me.
So I would really recommend younger men get connected with someone you consider wise.
And I it's pretty easy to do in a Illuman going to a men's rites of passage.
You will be confronted with
That you will have options for elders.
I hate to say it's not like a buffet or something.
It's like the elder meant for you.
Maybe in your life right now.
And just if it feels like there's something blocking you
Or you just have gone as far as you can get and it just doesn't seem like you can get any farther.
Being in relation with other people
can help to unlock that, I think.
Thank you so much.
Brody, I want to thank you deeply.
Thank you for your honesty, your courage and for giving us a window into your
MROP experience and b beyond.
I love you, brother.
I love you, too.
This was so fun.
Thank you so much.
I'll see you at Awaken this year, if not sooner.
Yep, sounds good.
For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites.
The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six.
While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since twenty twelve a Illuman has been the steward of this work.
Preserving and Adapting the Rites for Men All Over the World.
To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return.
by Richard Rohr.
If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six.
The first is in Northern California, May thirteenth through the seventeenth.
the second in the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth, and in Illinois, August twelfth through the sixteenth.
There's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth.
And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is an MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth.
You can find details and registration information at Illuman dot
org slash mrop
or Illuman dot org slash events.
Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico.
You can find more at Illuman dot org slash awaken.
Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence.
If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life.
Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence dot org slash app.
It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today.
Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP.
Until next time, brothers, stay present.