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<v Brian Mueller>Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. My name is Brian Mueller.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>in Illinois in twenty fourteen.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>story.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>changed afterward. Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>own presence.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>stay grounded in the now.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence,</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot org slash app.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>to the men who have walked the path.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>My guest today is Rich Horton. Brother, I'm really glad you're here.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I'm glad to be here and really willing to share my story.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>Well, I'm originally from Northeast Ohio, outside of Cleveland, but for the last almost</v>

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<v Rich Horton>ten years now I have lived in Columbus, Ohio.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And love love Ohio for the most part. Love the topography and the people.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>It's a very welcoming Columbus in particular is a very welcoming community.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>How do you keep busy these days?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>Oh well, I have a lot of interests.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And one of them, of course, is I facilitate The Columbus Council of Illuman,</v>

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<v Rich Horton>which I have been doing now for almost nine years. And I love it.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>It's really a great group. And our group is getting a bit large.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>We have between eight and ten almost every month.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And sometimes we get twelve, which is a little bit tight around my dining</v>

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<v Rich Horton>room table. But it's always very, very enjoyable.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And so that's one of my major interests.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>The other one is: I am president of the Columbus, Ohio Prime Timers, which</v>

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<v Rich Horton>is a group of almost a hundred mature gay men and those that like</v>

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<v Rich Horton>them. A social group and a lot of wonderful men.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And then my other major interest is my church.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I'm on the vestry of St. Stephen's Episcopal.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>and University Center on the campus of Ohio State University.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>Plus I sing in the choir, and I do all the flowers for the</v>

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<v Rich Horton>church.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Wow. Yeah, you do keep busy. Well, thank you for all that.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Now, let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>The MROP is a unique experience.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>It's not a retreat or a workshop, but it's an initiation.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives looking for</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>something they can't quite name.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>beginning. When and where did you make your rites, Rich?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I did my MROP in twenty fourteen.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And in Illinois, it was a beautiful setting.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I can't remember the name of the park, but it was really, really lovely.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>We've had a lot of natural areas, which beats my heart since I'm also</v>

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<v Rich Horton>a naturalist. So it was really, really lovely.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And I will never forget walking in that very first night.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And this was with the ritual drumming and the smiles on so many people's</v>

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<v Rich Horton>faces.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>There's probably well over thirty men, I think, there at that re at that</v>

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<v Rich Horton>MROP. And one of the first feelings that I had was welcome.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>It was probably the first time I did something like this since I came</v>

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<v Rich Horton>out as a gay man back in 19 oh gosh 89 long time ago</v>

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<v Rich Horton>but I never felt in any way this is the problem being there back</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I felt so encouraged to participate and be a part of everything that was</v>

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<v Rich Horton>going on.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>That's terrific. So I believe it was Pilgrim Park that you were at.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>That's where the rites are in Illinois. Who was your weaver?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>Oh, that was Belden Lane. Oh, what an incredible man.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>He was one of the ones that really set the tone of the whole</v>

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<v Rich Horton>experience. I think I connected with him.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I still believe that he was a retired minister.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And I had in 2014, I had just completed my training to become a</v>

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<v Rich Horton>spiritual director.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And so it was kind of like I was moving from that whole new</v>

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<v Rich Horton>chapter of my life because I had been retired basically since 2009.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And looking for how I could transfer my life or the rest of my</v>

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<v Rich Horton>life in my journey. It was the right decision.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>To come to Pilgrim Park and be a part of it.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And when you think back to that weekend, what are the images or what</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>is the image or the feeling that really comes forth for you?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I don't think I will ever forget the rituals. They were powerful.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>In fact, just sitting here now, I remember the one with the broken mirror,</v>

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<v Rich Horton>you know, that whole experience of shattering the past.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>Looking into where I've come from, that ritual wasn't the only one, but that</v>

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<v Rich Horton>was the one that stuck with me.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And in fact, I still have pieces with that mirror and a shadow box</v>

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<v Rich Horton>in my study here.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>It was just and again I remember because I was part of a ritual,</v>

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<v Rich Horton>and I remember on my hands and knees going to every man in the</v>

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<v Rich Horton>circle. and looking into their eyes. And I'll never forget it.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Powerful.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Now, without sharing anything you might consider confidential, is there a particular story or</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>moment at the rites that stood out to you, maybe even an encounter with</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>somebody else?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>Well, there was one of the men who was I don't know if he</v>

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<v Rich Horton>was one of the presenter.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And I think that I remember him the most because he shared so deeply</v>

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<v Rich Horton>the pain of Being abused sexually.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And while I was never abused sexually, I was abused emotionally.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And it touched me because One of the things that and I'm willing to</v>

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<v Rich Horton>share this, one of the things that has always been a crossroads for me</v>

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<v Rich Horton>is in the time I was five years old and my father told me</v>

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<v Rich Horton>he didn't want a sissy for his sons. I knew why it was different.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And it took me forty five years to finally come to terms with that.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>and to deal with it.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>But it was that came forth also in the rite of passage, that the</v>

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<v Rich Horton>pain of that experience in the past.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>But then the overcoming of that pain and the transformational every time I think</v>

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<v Rich Horton>about the MROP, I think about transformation.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And for me, there were all those nuggets of old that I hold on</v>

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<v Rich Horton>to that I got at that retreat. It was truly a rite of passage.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Now I want to take you back to the decision to go to the</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>rites.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I know you said that you retired about 2009, so you were still relatively</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>early in your retirement.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>But you also said you had just completed your spiritual direction.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Can you tell us a little bit more about the circumstances, though, that led</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>up to your decision to go ahead and register and participate in the rites?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I had been a part of the training program to become a spiritual director</v>

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<v Rich Horton>for two years. I started in 2012. I was kind of at a crossroads.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I had been in a short-term relationship with a wonderful man, but a man</v>

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<v Rich Horton>who was not available to me, really. emotionally and even physically.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And so I didn't know where my life was going.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And even though I had retired I retired from full-time work in 2005, and</v>

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<v Rich Horton>then I worked 20 hours a week for the next three years.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>But in 2009, I retired completely.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And so I felt that I was at a crossroads.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>It was one of the reasons I went into spiritual direction training.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>After being pulled greatly by my own spiritual directors and another friend who just</v>

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<v Rich Horton>raved about this program, the spiritual direction program.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>So then when I finished the program, it was like, okay, where do I</v>

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<v Rich Horton>go from here? You know, it was 2014.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I was in my early 70s at that point, and it was like, okay,</v>

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<v Rich Horton>what do I do?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>But I also As part of my spiritual direction training in that, I had</v>

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<v Rich Horton>really gotten in touch with my own spirituality, and I wanted to deepen that.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And I felt that going to the men's rites of passage would help me</v>

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<v Rich Horton>get more in touch. With their true self, that's deep within them.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Now, when you entered the rites, was there something that you were hoping for,</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>something that you were looking to be initiated into?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I guess for me, it was to be initiated into the world of helping</v>

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<v Rich Horton>masculinity.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>Having grown up for so many years feeling that I wasn't I wasn't physically</v>

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<v Rich Horton>attractive. I certainly didn't think. Turns out I was wrong. But I really.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I wanted to really go deeper for myself in my journey.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Was there anything, though, on the flip side that you were fearing or any</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>fear that you had entering into the rites?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>Well, I think as a gay man, I was fearful of coming into a</v>

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<v Rich Horton>group of men who I assumed would be majority heterosexual.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>That was probably my only fear.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I had gotten beyond that a little bit, having come out in 89, but</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I had also gone through some very severe trauma.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>my teaching career where I had a superintendent tried to fire me for no</v>

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<v Rich Horton>reason really because I was gay.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>So There was always a hesitancy for me to get involved with other men</v>

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<v Rich Horton>and would I be accepted. Or the man I am.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Who did you share your decision to attend the rites with, if anyone?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>That's a good question. I don't have much family here in Ohio.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I think the only one I shared it with was my were my two</v>

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<v Rich Horton>sons.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And they were supportive, even though they didn't quite understand what I was doing.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>They go, Dad, you're going to an initiation program for men and you're how</v>

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<v Rich Horton>old That was kind of the attitude, but they were still supporters.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Now, the rites lasts for parts of five days.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>It's a long event, but we all get through it. You get through it.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>How did you feel in that immediate period as you were leaving Pilgrim Park</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>and heading back home?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I was riding on a club.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I'm remembering that there was a time in the afternoon one day of that</v>

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<v Rich Horton>retreat where we were to go off by our fell, which we did a</v>

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<v Rich Horton>lot of, but this was a really significant amount of time.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And I found myself sitting amongst the trees and really meditating on what are</v>

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<v Rich Horton>the What are the nuggets of gold, the crystals of whatever diamonds, whatever you</v>

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<v Rich Horton>want to call them? But what are they that make up my soul?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And it was while I was sitting there that it came to me something</v>

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<v Rich Horton>that I had discovered even a number of years before, but had not really</v>

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<v Rich Horton>taken to heart, and that was that I am the possibility of love, joy,</v>

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<v Rich Horton>and wonder.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And that was totally affirmed at that initiation program, men's rite of passage.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And so as I came out of that experience All I wanted was more.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I still fear how I wanted to do more. I wanted to feel more.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I wanted to be more a part of What it means to be a</v>

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<v Rich Horton>healthy man, spiritually grounded through love.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>That's beautiful.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>So you come back and I imagine you spoke to your sons again, but</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>who all did you tell about the rites and maybe how did some of</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>those conversations change?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>Well, I was very fortunate because Before I even went on the right, I</v>

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<v Rich Horton>had already formed a men's group in outside of Cleveland, east side of Cleveland.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>So I was very eager to get back and to share my experience with</v>

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<v Rich Horton>the men. So that's who I shared it with.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And I hope that maybe some of those men went on to do their</v>

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<v Rich Horton>own That's right, it passes. I think some of them did.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Are you continuing to have new realizations?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Is there anything that is continuing to emerge in your life that is coming</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>out of those rites that rites experience you had?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I think one of the biggest things that has really stuck with me is</v>

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<v Rich Horton>the fact that I need to go into silent, deep meditation.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And connect with, I call them my angels or my spiritual guides or whatever,</v>

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<v Rich Horton>but connect with God and feel the present every single day.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And as I've shared with many of my own helpful members here in Columbus,</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I have a spirit guide that visits me almost every day in the form</v>

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<v Rich Horton>of a red cardinal. And it is truly a spirit guide.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And I walk out my door in the morning at like 6:30, 7 o'clock</v>

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<v Rich Horton>to take the dog out.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And there's my cardinal singing on the top of the tree.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>So my connection with nature is deep and deep and more.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I just feel like My life is still evolving, is still growing.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I'm going to be 83 in a month.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And I just love the experiences that I've had and how it has created</v>

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<v Rich Horton>such a positive journey for me.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And I think about the journey of eliminations, following the men’s rites of passage.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I still deal with that. I still go with that.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>My life is full of present every single hour of every single day.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And I experience that with the contact that I have with the other people</v>

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<v Rich Horton>that come into my life, which is a lot.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Thank you, Rich. I love the image of a cardinal as your spirit guide.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I think that's beautiful.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Let me ask, has anything how is your how has your understanding of masculinity</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>initiation or purpose shifted since your experience at the rites and all the years</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>of work in between?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I think what I've come to realize is that an awful lot of men</v>

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<v Rich Horton>have learned the wrong kinds of things about who they are.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And I think in many ways they are craving an experience like I've had</v>

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<v Rich Horton>with Illuman and continue to have.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And I can remember once I was sharing like I was actually sharing that</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I was going to this wonderful writing retreat.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>In January, sponsored by Ohio Illuman and led by you and another man -</v>

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<v Rich Horton>Tom.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And the women were at most of the men most of the practitioners at</v>

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<v Rich Horton>the Reiki Center are women.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And they were saying, you know, us women have these kinds of relationships, but</v>

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<v Rich Horton>so many men do not.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>They were so excited and wanted to share what I was doing with the</v>

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<v Rich Horton>men in their line.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>So what counsel or advice would you give to a man who is currently</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>kind of discerning whether or not to register or participate in our rites of</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>passage?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I think the first thing to do is to go into prayer and to</v>

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<v Rich Horton>really focus on what it is you're looking for in your life.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And what is hampering you or holding you back?</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And then, as you approach it in meditation and prayer, and compassion for yourself,</v>

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<v Rich Horton>come to a decision that this could be a really important step.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>for continuing your journey as a helping man in our society.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I just have really one more question for you.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And I want our listeners to know that you and I were both initiates</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>of the same rites of passage and Rich, you're a very dear man to</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>me, and we've been in community together since that time and have really both</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>been on our own journeys of illumination and our together journey.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And you've done a lot for gay men.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I think that's a particular part of your spiritual journey.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And I would just like to hear a little bit more about your experience</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>as a gay man within Illuman and also what you might share with other</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>men about not just about Illuman, but your own individual experience, what it means.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I guess.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>The thing that strikes me every time I listen to it or watch it</v>

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<v Rich Horton>is the welcome that was given at Awaken, the first Awaken in Virginia that</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I went to.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And that is the experience that I want other gay men to have is</v>

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<v Rich Horton>we are all welcome. And this journey is for all men.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I just, you know, I think back to my own council here in Columbus.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>We have just gone through a big loss.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>One of our members died just the Monday after Easter.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And our council meet tonight without Don.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And it has just been such an incredible experience to be with men.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And it doesn't matter if you're gay or straight or bi or just, you</v>

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<v Rich Horton>know, what matters is you're present.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And to be present and to listen from the heart. Here comes the guidelines.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>Listen from the heart and speak from the heart.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>Every night when every month when we finish our council, I turn to my</v>

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<v Rich Horton>husband and I'd say, I don't know what I would do without 11.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And without them and support for my journey, as well as supporting others in</v>

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<v Rich Horton>their journey.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Would you like to speak the name of the man who passed away into</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>the you know as a blessing and just a memory for him?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I know he was a member of our community for a while.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>Donovan Vicha.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>He’s been a member of the Columbus Council since it was formed nine years</v>

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<v Rich Horton>ago.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And he's very dear to me, and I - we are lighting a special</v>

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<v Rich Horton>candle tonight at council.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>And so with the blessings that we will be sharing, I bless Don in</v>

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<v Rich Horton>my heart right now.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>Because he's been so much a part of our journey together.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>I'm sorry, I don't get emotional. Sure, sure. But yeah, Donovan.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Brother, thank you deeply. I love you.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I appreciate your honesty, your courage, and for you giving us a window into</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>your MROP experience and beyond. Thank you, Rich.</v>

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<v Rich Horton>Oh, I'm very grateful to do it. Thank you, and love you too.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>of these rites.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation,</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>since twenty twelve a Lumen has been the steward of this work.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>recommend reading “Adam's Return” by Richard Rohr.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>The first is in Northern California, may thirteenth through the seventeenth the second in</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>and in Illinois, August twelfth through the sixteenth.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>There's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>and the final one of the year is in Texas, which is in MROP</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>You can find details and registration information at Illuman dot org slash MROP or</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Illuman. org slash events.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>You can find more at Illuman dot org slash awaken.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>daily life.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence dot org slash app.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>today. Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Until next time, brothers, stay present.</v>