Brian Mueller: 00:03
Brian Mueller: Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of
Brian Mueller: the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. My name is Brian Mueller.
Brian Mueller: I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park
Brian Mueller: in Illinois in twenty fourteen.
Brian Mueller: I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with
Brian Mueller: one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his
Brian Mueller: story.
Brian Mueller: This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation
Brian Mueller: about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what
Brian Mueller: changed afterward. Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude.
Brian Mueller: This podcast is brought to you by choosing Presence.
Brian Mueller: We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his
Brian Mueller: own presence.
Brian Mueller: In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you
Brian Mueller: stay grounded in the now.
Brian Mueller: If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence,
Brian Mueller: you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot org slash app.
Brian Mueller: Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help
Brian Mueller: men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a
Brian Mueller: focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul.
Brian Mueller: On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk
Brian Mueller: to the men who have walked the path.
Brian Mueller: Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're
Brian Mueller: going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him.
Brian Mueller: My guest today is Rich Geirak. Brother, I'm really glad you're here.
Brian Mueller: Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story.
Brian Mueller: Rich Geirak
Brian Mueller: 01:32
Brian Mueller: You bet, Brian. Glad to be here.
Brian Mueller: 01:34
Brian Mueller: Rich, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days.
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 01:37
Brian Mueller: So I live in Northern California.
Brian Mueller: I was born in a town, city named Concord, just about 30 miles east
Brian Mueller: of San Francisco, most of my life in and around the Bay Area.
Brian Mueller: I now live up in the mountains in the Sierras. And yeah.
Brian Mueller: 01:54
Brian Mueller: Great. Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage.
Brian Mueller: The MROP is a unique experience.
Brian Mueller: It's not a retreat or a workshop, it's an initiation.
Brian Mueller: Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives looking for
Brian Mueller: something they can't quite name.
Brian Mueller: Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very
Brian Mueller: beginning. When and where did you make your rites?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 02:11
Brian Mueller: I made my rites in 2006 at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico.
Brian Mueller: 02:16
Brian Mueller: And do you recall who the Reaver was and how many men were there?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 02:19
Brian Mueller: Yeah. Richard Rohr was our weaver.
Brian Mueller: There were 120 men making their rites that week.
Brian Mueller: And I was on the waiting list for almost a year before leading up
Brian Mueller: to that experience, but got in.
Brian Mueller: 02:33
Brian Mueller: So when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image or feeling
Brian Mueller: that comes forth?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 02:38
Brian Mueller: For me, it was there was a lot of experience.
Brian Mueller: Not a lot of talking, but a lot of experience is really what impacted
Brian Mueller: me. The MROP was not a place where I was told about things.
Brian Mueller: It's a place where I experienced different ways of perceiving just my own journey.
Brian Mueller: 02:58
Brian Mueller: Was there a particular image or something that comes to mind though from that
Brian Mueller: weekend or a feeling that that was really powerful for you, overwhelming you from
Brian Mueller: that time?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 03:06
Brian Mueller: Probably the land there was a very strong image for me of the time
Brian Mueller: spent out on in the wilderness. Really wonderful.
Brian Mueller: 03:17
Brian Mueller: It was high desert, right?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 03:18
Brian Mueller: Yeah. Yeah. High desert, northwestern New Mexico.
Brian Mueller: 03:22
Brian Mueller: And in general terms, what was the entire weekend like for you?
Brian Mueller: How would you characterize the weekend?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 03:27
Brian Mueller: It was life-changing for me. It really was.
Brian Mueller: I had a three-day ride home where I began to try to unpack and
Brian Mueller: understand the experience, which was just wonderful.
Brian Mueller: And I'm now like 20 years later still Working to integrate that whole experience
Brian Mueller: into my life and make it also to help other men have similar experiences.
Brian Mueller: 03:52
Brian Mueller: Without sharing something that may be too confidential, is there a story?
Brian Mueller: Is there an interaction with one of the men, a ritual, or something that
Brian Mueller: really grabbed you that weekend that you can recall?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 04:03
Brian Mueller: There was, and it was deeply impactful.
Brian Mueller: A ritual that involved all the men present and kind of got down beneath
Brian Mueller: the covers, down beneath the surface, and into, you know.
Brian Mueller: Deeper places in my story and my life and stirred some things up.
Brian Mueller: 04:21
Brian Mueller: Now, you said you were on a waiting list for about a year to
Brian Mueller: participate in this rites, but going back to that time that was leading up
Brian Mueller: to your rites, what were the circumstances that both led to your decision to
Brian Mueller: participate and what was going on in your life at that time?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 04:33
Brian Mueller: So at the time, I was actually.
Brian Mueller: Information to be become clergy in a church.
Brian Mueller: And it was all well and fine. And I was learning a lot there.
Brian Mueller: And my experience in that environment was good.
Brian Mueller: But it still didn't really speak to me as a man.
Brian Mueller: What led me to the MROP was a friend of mine had given me
Brian Mueller: one of Richard Rohrer's books. On a retreat in 2004.
Brian Mueller: And I read, I brought it home, put it on the shelf.
Brian Mueller: In 2005, this was an annual weekend men's retreat for the you know, the
Brian Mueller: men of our church.
Brian Mueller: And you know, we always had clergy leading the weekend, and it was, you
Brian Mueller: know, just the guys.
Brian Mueller: Well, the following year in 05, I brought the book with me.
Brian Mueller: and started reading it. And this guy was talking to me.
Brian Mueller: At least I was connecting with what he was sharing around men's spiritual spirituality
Brian Mueller: and around how we just there just aren't any programs or journeys designed for
Brian Mueller: men. And we've lost a lot of especially around initiation.
Brian Mueller: How do we transition from boyhood to manhood in a healthy way?
Brian Mueller: So I got home and I started searching on the internet.
Brian Mueller: Who is this Richard Rohr guy? What's this guy about?
Brian Mueller: And found out that he was doing a book tour down in Southern California.
Brian Mueller: And so I rode down to Southern California for a weekend and heard him
Brian Mueller: speak and he talked about this men's rites of passage experience.
Brian Mueller: Got to talk to him a little bit afterwards and came home and started
Brian Mueller: noodling around. What's this men's rites of passage thing?
Brian Mueller: And, you know, and I got on the wait list.
Brian Mueller: It really was calling to me to kind of try to find a way
Brian Mueller: to fill some emptiness that my other experiences just weren't addressing.
Brian Mueller: 06:23
Brian Mueller: Can you tell us which book that was that you read?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 06:25
Brian Mueller: It was “The Wild Man's Journey.” The current form is titled “From Wild Man
Brian Mueller: to Wise Man,” the current edition that's out, but it really, really spoke to
Brian Mueller: me.
Brian Mueller: 06:37
Brian Mueller: Thinking back to the day that you sort of arrived at the Rites, or
Brian Mueller: maybe even on the journey to New Mexico, but as you went in, were
Brian Mueller: you - was there something that you were hoping to get from the rites?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 06:48
Brian Mueller: There was.
Brian Mueller: And I spent I took a three-day motorcycle ride to get from my house
Brian Mueller: to the rites, to the site.
Brian Mueller: And I had two intentions during those three days.
Brian Mueller: The first was to do my very best to show up with an open
Brian Mueller: mind and an open heart, or what Richard calls a beginner's mind, trying to
Brian Mueller: kind of set aside any expectations of what I want to get out of
Brian Mueller: this. Right, specifically, but to be open.
Brian Mueller: And then my second intention was I wanted to get everything out of it
Brian Mueller: that I could, whatever was offered, right? And to be all in.
Brian Mueller: and to put my trust in the team and the experience so that I
Brian Mueller: could get all the juice there was to get.
Brian Mueller: 07:32
Brian Mueller: Were you carrying any fear with you into the rites?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 07:35
Brian Mueller: Not really. Not really.
Brian Mueller: I'm a little bit open to new experiences, I tend to be.
Brian Mueller: So I didn't have a lot of trepidation.
Brian Mueller: 07:45
Brian Mueller: And when you left the rites - after the rites had ended, immediately after,
Brian Mueller: as you're driving home? How were you feeling?
Brian Mueller: What was going on for you then?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 07:53
Brian Mueller: I was I was overwhelmed when I left, trying to Kind of sort out,
Brian Mueller: right?
Brian Mueller: So, the thinking mind took over as soon as I hit the road, right?
Brian Mueller: But again, I had three days' journey home in solitude to really start organizing
Brian Mueller: and unpacking and I'm still doing it. I'm still doing it. What changed?
Brian Mueller: 08:15
Brian Mueller: You know, I know it's been twenty years, but maybe some of the -
Brian Mueller: there were some immediate changes in your life.
Brian Mueller: But what has changed practically, relationally, spiritually, since you made your rites?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 08:25
Brian Mueller: A lot has changed in the last 20 years, but I am much more
Brian Mueller: grounded as a human being than I was prior to the rites.
Brian Mueller: far more difficult to knock me off my center than it used to be.
Brian Mueller: And I feel this is incredibly important work and experience for all men that
Brian Mueller: we need to do if we want to become healthy Authentic and contributing in
Brian Mueller: a positive way to the world and people around us.
Brian Mueller: 08:57
Brian Mueller: When you went to the Rites, was there anyone that you told prior to
Brian Mueller: going to the Rites that you were going to the Rites?
Brian Mueller: And what were those conversations like?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 09:05
Brian Mueller: Good question. I don't really have any explicit memories there to share.
Brian Mueller: 09:10
Brian Mueller: Yeah, no worries.
Brian Mueller: But after the rites, did you start did you tell other people about your
Brian Mueller: experience there? Were you able to talk about it?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 09:17
Brian Mueller: I did. I did indeed.
Brian Mueller: I was able to talk about it the year after my experience with the
Brian Mueller: rites. Richard Rohr came and did a weekend retreat right near me.
Brian Mueller: And there was handful of us, maybe ten of us, that came to that
Brian Mueller: weekend retreat that had all made our rites in the last couple of years.
Brian Mueller: And we actually sat down with Father Richard and said, we want to start
Brian Mueller: up a Northern California chapter of what was at the time called males.
Brian Mueller: And that's what you know, that's been kind of my follow-up ever since is
Brian Mueller: continuing with that group.
Brian Mueller: 09:56
Brian Mueller: Was the transformational aspect of the rites - was that immediately apparent to you
Brian Mueller: right after the rites, or was that something that kind of settled on you
Brian Mueller: over time?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 10:06
Brian Mueller: I would say both.
Brian Mueller: There was like immediate impact of kind of I found a way to express
Brian Mueller: and describe who I am as a person, as a man, and it's evolved
Brian Mueller: over the last 20 years as well, continuing to go deeper.
Brian Mueller: And have, yeah, just continuing to grow or doing my best.
Brian Mueller: 10:28
Brian Mueller: Yeah, now I imagine, you know, since it's been 20 years since you made
Brian Mueller: the rites, it's not only the rites that has contributed to this.
Brian Mueller: But I'm going to ask you, did that experience and what you've learned since
Brian Mueller: change your understanding of masculinity initiation and really what it means to be a
Brian Mueller: man?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 10:42
Brian Mueller: Completely. Completely.
Brian Mueller: You know, as a child, I had some experiences with the Wiyot Indian Guides.
Brian Mueller: I had experience with Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. And those were great programs.
Brian Mueller: Definitely gave skills and some orientation around male companionship and teamwork.
Brian Mueller: But the rites really kind of moved me into an adult space, to a
Brian Mueller: you know, more of a grown up understanding and footing, I would say.
Brian Mueller: 11:13
Brian Mueller: And you we were talking before we started recording here that twenty ten was
Brian Mueller: the first year that the rites were offered in Northern California, where you're from.
Brian Mueller: And so your chapter's been doing men's rites of passage every couple of years
Brian Mueller: since then, and you've been involved.
Brian Mueller: How was your rites experience informed how did that inform your ongoing participation in
Brian Mueller: the MROP and offering that to other men?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 11:35
Brian Mueller: I would say it was it was really the my experience at Ghost Ranch
Brian Mueller: was sort of the driving energy behind my staying involved and wanting to be
Brian Mueller: part of the experience of other men having a similar experience and maybe having
Brian Mueller: their eyes open to some aspect of themselves or their own history or their
Brian Mueller: own spirituality that they had not seen before.
Brian Mueller: 12:02
Brian Mueller: You're doing a rites of passage this May - is it thirteenth through the
Brian Mueller: seventeenth?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 12:07
Brian Mueller: It is in Northern California.
Brian Mueller: 12:10
Brian Mueller: Yeah, maybe you could talk a little bit more of that, but why about
Brian Mueller: that, but why you're doing it?
Brian Mueller: Extend an invitation to somebody who might be listening. Why should they come?
Brian Mueller: Or why would this be a good experience for them?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 12:20
Brian Mueller: These aren't my original thoughts, but I experienced them, right?
Brian Mueller: Richard Rohr has written about them.
Brian Mueller: That, you know, when we get to a point in life, As men, at
Brian Mueller: least in my experience and many of the other brothers that host and promote
Brian Mueller: this work, Is there comes a point when winning doesn't teach you anything, and
Brian Mueller: there's a lot more to life than going to work, doing your day job,
Brian Mueller: providing financially for your family.
Brian Mueller: And you know, and then cracking open a beer and watching sports on television.
Brian Mueller: Right. There's a much deeper and richer journey.
Brian Mueller: to being a man contributing not just financially but spiritually to family, friends, all
Brian Mueller: the people you come into contact with.
Brian Mueller: 13:06
Brian Mueller: If a man is having a hard time discerning whether or not to come
Brian Mueller: to the rites, what would you what kind of counsel or advice would you
Brian Mueller: give him?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 13:12
Brian Mueller: Well, the advice I would give myself, and so I would share with other
Brian Mueller: men, is if you're considering this journey, but you have some trepidation, you're not
Brian Mueller: sure about it, lean into it. Lean into it.
Brian Mueller: You know, there's transformation takes place in a different kind of space.
Brian Mueller: And so if your logical mind is saying, yeah, but maybe it'll be scary.
Brian Mueller: It's time to ask you, instruct the logical mind to sit down for a
Brian Mueller: few minutes and chill.
Brian Mueller: 13:41
Brian Mueller: That's great. This has been very helpful. And I really appreciate your time.
Brian Mueller: I really just have kind of one more question for you.
Brian Mueller: And Rich, obviously, your rites led to a two decade involvement with the men's
Brian Mueller: work in Illuman.
Brian Mueller: What could you share or what would you like to say to men about
Brian Mueller: the community and what your experience has been like in helping to create the
Brian Mueller: community?
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 14:01
Brian Mueller: So, I don't know who the origin of this is, but there's a phrase
Brian Mueller: out there that, you know, men sharpen men, right? As iron sharpens iron.
Brian Mueller: And there really is a, in my experience, a pathway of growth into becoming
Brian Mueller: a mature Masculine man, that can only happen in the company of other men
Brian Mueller: and in the accompaniment shoulder to shoulder with other men.
Brian Mueller: I cherish and love my spouse and family and children and grandchildren, but There
Brian Mueller: is an aspect of ma of healthy malehood that can only be expressed and
Brian Mueller: nurtured in the company of a group of other men.
Brian Mueller: 14:46
Brian Mueller: Well said, Brother. Thank you. I really appreciate your time.
Brian Mueller: I love you, brother, and I want to thank you for your honesty, your
Brian Mueller: courage, and for giving us a peek into your MROP experience and how that's
Brian Mueller: changed your life.
Brian Mueller: Rich Gierak
Brian Mueller: 14:55
Brian Mueller: Oh, you're welcome. And thanks for the invitation, Brian.
Brian Mueller: Always glad to talk about Illuman and men doing their inner work to make
Brian Mueller: a difference in the world.
Brian Mueller: 15:05
Brian Mueller: For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and
Brian Mueller: are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history
Brian Mueller: of these rites.
Brian Mueller: The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was
Brian Mueller: first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six.
Brian Mueller: While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation,
Brian Mueller: since twenty twelve Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting
Brian Mueller: the rites for men all over the world.
Brian Mueller: To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly
Brian Mueller: recommend reading Adam's Return by Richard Rohr.
Brian Mueller: If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the
Brian Mueller: United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six.
Brian Mueller: The first is in Northern California, may thirteenth through the seventeenth, the second in
Brian Mueller: the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth, and in Illinois, August
Brian Mueller: twelfth through the sixteenth.
Brian Mueller: There's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth,
Brian Mueller: and the final one of the year is in Texas, which is in MROPN
Brian Mueller: Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth.
Brian Mueller: You can find details and registration information at Illuman dot org slash mrop or
Brian Mueller: Illuman dot org slash events.
Brian Mueller: Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place
Brian Mueller: November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico.
Brian Mueller: You can find more at Illuman dot org slash awaken.
Brian Mueller: Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence.
Brian Mueller: If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your
Brian Mueller: daily life.
Brian Mueller: Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence dot org slash app.
Brian Mueller: It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed
Brian Mueller: today. Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP.
Brian Mueller: Until next time, brothers, stay present.