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<v Brian Mueller>00:03</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. My name is Brian Mueller.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>in Illinois in twenty fourteen.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>story.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>changed afterward. Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>This podcast is brought to you by choosing Presence.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>own presence.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>stay grounded in the now.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence,</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence dot org slash app.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>to the men who have walked the path.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>My guest today is Rich Geirak. Brother, I'm really glad you're here.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Geirak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>01:32</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>You bet, Brian. Glad to be here.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>01:34</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>01:37</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>So I live in Northern California.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I was born in a town, city named Concord, just about 30 miles east</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>of San Francisco, most of my life in and around the Bay Area.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I now live up in the mountains in the Sierras. And yeah.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>01:54</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Great. Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>The MROP is a unique experience.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>It's not a retreat or a workshop, it's an initiation.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives looking for</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>something they can't quite name.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>beginning. When and where did you make your rites?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>02:11</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I made my rites in 2006 at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>02:16</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And do you recall who the Reaver was and how many men were there?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>02:19</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Yeah. Richard Rohr was our weaver.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>There were 120 men making their rites that week.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And I was on the waiting list for almost a year before leading up</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>to that experience, but got in.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>02:33</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>So when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image or feeling</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>that comes forth?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>02:38</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>For me, it was there was a lot of experience.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Not a lot of talking, but a lot of experience is really what impacted</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>me. The MROP was not a place where I was told about things.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>It's a place where I experienced different ways of perceiving just my own journey.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>02:58</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Was there a particular image or something that comes to mind though from that</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>weekend or a feeling that that was really powerful for you, overwhelming you from</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>that time?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>03:06</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Probably the land there was a very strong image for me of the time</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>spent out on in the wilderness. Really wonderful.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>03:17</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>It was high desert, right?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>03:18</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Yeah. Yeah. High desert, northwestern New Mexico.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>03:22</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And in general terms, what was the entire weekend like for you?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>How would you characterize the weekend?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>03:27</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>It was life-changing for me. It really was.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I had a three-day ride home where I began to try to unpack and</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>understand the experience, which was just wonderful.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And I'm now like 20 years later still Working to integrate that whole experience</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>into my life and make it also to help other men have similar experiences.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>03:52</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Without sharing something that may be too confidential, is there a story?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Is there an interaction with one of the men, a ritual, or something that</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>really grabbed you that weekend that you can recall?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>04:03</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>There was, and it was deeply impactful.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>A ritual that involved all the men present and kind of got down beneath</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>the covers, down beneath the surface, and into, you know.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Deeper places in my story and my life and stirred some things up.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>04:21</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Now, you said you were on a waiting list for about a year to</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>participate in this rites, but going back to that time that was leading up</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>to your rites, what were the circumstances that both led to your decision to</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>participate and what was going on in your life at that time?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>04:33</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>So at the time, I was actually.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Information to be become clergy in a church.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And it was all well and fine. And I was learning a lot there.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And my experience in that environment was good.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>But it still didn't really speak to me as a man.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>What led me to the MROP was a friend of mine had given me</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>one of Richard Rohrer's books. On a retreat in 2004.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And I read, I brought it home, put it on the shelf.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>In 2005, this was an annual weekend men's retreat for the you know, the</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>men of our church.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And you know, we always had clergy leading the weekend, and it was, you</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>know, just the guys.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Well, the following year in 05, I brought the book with me.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>and started reading it. And this guy was talking to me.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>At least I was connecting with what he was sharing around men's spiritual spirituality</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>and around how we just there just aren't any programs or journeys designed for</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>men. And we've lost a lot of especially around initiation.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>How do we transition from boyhood to manhood in a healthy way?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>So I got home and I started searching on the internet.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Who is this Richard Rohr guy? What's this guy about?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And found out that he was doing a book tour down in Southern California.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And so I rode down to Southern California for a weekend and heard him</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>speak and he talked about this men's rites of passage experience.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Got to talk to him a little bit afterwards and came home and started</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>noodling around. What's this men's rites of passage thing?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And, you know, and I got on the wait list.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>It really was calling to me to kind of try to find a way</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>to fill some emptiness that my other experiences just weren't addressing.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>06:23</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Can you tell us which book that was that you read?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>06:25</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>It was “The Wild Man's Journey.” The current form is titled “From Wild Man</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>to Wise Man,” the current edition that's out, but it really, really spoke to</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>me.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>06:37</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Thinking back to the day that you sort of arrived at the Rites, or</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>maybe even on the journey to New Mexico, but as you went in, were</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>you - was there something that you were hoping to get from the rites?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>06:48</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>There was.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And I spent I took a three-day motorcycle ride to get from my house</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>to the rites, to the site.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And I had two intentions during those three days.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>The first was to do my very best to show up with an open</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>mind and an open heart, or what Richard calls a beginner's mind, trying to</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>kind of set aside any expectations of what I want to get out of</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>this. Right, specifically, but to be open.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And then my second intention was I wanted to get everything out of it</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>that I could, whatever was offered, right? And to be all in.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>and to put my trust in the team and the experience so that I</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>could get all the juice there was to get.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>07:32</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Were you carrying any fear with you into the rites?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>07:35</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Not really. Not really.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I'm a little bit open to new experiences, I tend to be.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>So I didn't have a lot of trepidation.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>07:45</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And when you left the rites - after the rites had ended, immediately after,</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>as you're driving home? How were you feeling?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>What was going on for you then?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>07:53</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I was I was overwhelmed when I left, trying to Kind of sort out,</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>right?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>So, the thinking mind took over as soon as I hit the road, right?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>But again, I had three days' journey home in solitude to really start organizing</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>and unpacking and I'm still doing it. I'm still doing it. What changed?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>08:15</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>You know, I know it's been twenty years, but maybe some of the -</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>there were some immediate changes in your life.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>But what has changed practically, relationally, spiritually, since you made your rites?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>08:25</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>A lot has changed in the last 20 years, but I am much more</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>grounded as a human being than I was prior to the rites.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>far more difficult to knock me off my center than it used to be.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And I feel this is incredibly important work and experience for all men that</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>we need to do if we want to become healthy Authentic and contributing in</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>a positive way to the world and people around us.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>08:57</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>When you went to the Rites, was there anyone that you told prior to</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>going to the Rites that you were going to the Rites?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And what were those conversations like?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>09:05</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Good question. I don't really have any explicit memories there to share.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>09:10</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Yeah, no worries.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>But after the rites, did you start did you tell other people about your</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>experience there? Were you able to talk about it?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>09:17</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I did. I did indeed.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I was able to talk about it the year after my experience with the</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>rites. Richard Rohr came and did a weekend retreat right near me.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And there was handful of us, maybe ten of us, that came to that</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>weekend retreat that had all made our rites in the last couple of years.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And we actually sat down with Father Richard and said, we want to start</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>up a Northern California chapter of what was at the time called males.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And that's what you know, that's been kind of my follow-up ever since is</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>continuing with that group.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>09:56</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Was the transformational aspect of the rites - was that immediately apparent to you</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>right after the rites, or was that something that kind of settled on you</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>over time?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>10:06</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I would say both.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>There was like immediate impact of kind of I found a way to express</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>and describe who I am as a person, as a man, and it's evolved</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>over the last 20 years as well, continuing to go deeper.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And have, yeah, just continuing to grow or doing my best.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>10:28</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Yeah, now I imagine, you know, since it's been 20 years since you made</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>the rites, it's not only the rites that has contributed to this.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>But I'm going to ask you, did that experience and what you've learned since</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>change your understanding of masculinity initiation and really what it means to be a</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>man?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>10:42</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Completely. Completely.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>You know, as a child, I had some experiences with the Wiyot Indian Guides.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I had experience with Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. And those were great programs.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Definitely gave skills and some orientation around male companionship and teamwork.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>But the rites really kind of moved me into an adult space, to a</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>you know, more of a grown up understanding and footing, I would say.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>11:13</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And you we were talking before we started recording here that twenty ten was</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>the first year that the rites were offered in Northern California, where you're from.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And so your chapter's been doing men's rites of passage every couple of years</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>since then, and you've been involved.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>How was your rites experience informed how did that inform your ongoing participation in</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>the MROP and offering that to other men?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>11:35</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I would say it was it was really the my experience at Ghost Ranch</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>was sort of the driving energy behind my staying involved and wanting to be</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>part of the experience of other men having a similar experience and maybe having</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>their eyes open to some aspect of themselves or their own history or their</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>own spirituality that they had not seen before.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>12:02</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>You're doing a rites of passage this May - is it thirteenth through the</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>seventeenth?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>12:07</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>It is in Northern California.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>12:10</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Yeah, maybe you could talk a little bit more of that, but why about</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>that, but why you're doing it?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Extend an invitation to somebody who might be listening. Why should they come?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Or why would this be a good experience for them?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>12:20</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>These aren't my original thoughts, but I experienced them, right?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Richard Rohr has written about them.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>That, you know, when we get to a point in life, As men, at</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>least in my experience and many of the other brothers that host and promote</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>this work, Is there comes a point when winning doesn't teach you anything, and</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>there's a lot more to life than going to work, doing your day job,</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>providing financially for your family.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And you know, and then cracking open a beer and watching sports on television.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Right. There's a much deeper and richer journey.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>to being a man contributing not just financially but spiritually to family, friends, all</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>the people you come into contact with.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>13:06</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>If a man is having a hard time discerning whether or not to come</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>to the rites, what would you what kind of counsel or advice would you</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>give him?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>13:12</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Well, the advice I would give myself, and so I would share with other</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>men, is if you're considering this journey, but you have some trepidation, you're not</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>sure about it, lean into it. Lean into it.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>You know, there's transformation takes place in a different kind of space.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And so if your logical mind is saying, yeah, but maybe it'll be scary.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>It's time to ask you, instruct the logical mind to sit down for a</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>few minutes and chill.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>13:41</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>That's great. This has been very helpful. And I really appreciate your time.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I really just have kind of one more question for you.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And Rich, obviously, your rites led to a two decade involvement with the men's</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>work in Illuman.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>What could you share or what would you like to say to men about</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>the community and what your experience has been like in helping to create the</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>community?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>14:01</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>So, I don't know who the origin of this is, but there's a phrase</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>out there that, you know, men sharpen men, right? As iron sharpens iron.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>And there really is a, in my experience, a pathway of growth into becoming</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>a mature Masculine man, that can only happen in the company of other men</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>and in the accompaniment shoulder to shoulder with other men.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I cherish and love my spouse and family and children and grandchildren, but There</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>is an aspect of ma of healthy malehood that can only be expressed and</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>nurtured in the company of a group of other men.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>14:46</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Well said, Brother. Thank you. I really appreciate your time.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I love you, brother, and I want to thank you for your honesty, your</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>courage, and for giving us a peek into your MROP experience and how that's</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>changed your life.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Rich Gierak</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>14:55</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Oh, you're welcome. And thanks for the invitation, Brian.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Always glad to talk about Illuman and men doing their inner work to make</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>a difference in the world.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>15:05</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>of these rites.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation,</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>since twenty twelve Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>the rites for men all over the world.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>recommend reading Adam's Return by Richard Rohr.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>The first is in Northern California, may thirteenth through the seventeenth, the second in</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth, and in Illinois, August</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>twelfth through the sixteenth.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>There's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth,</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>and the final one of the year is in Texas, which is in MROPN</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>You can find details and registration information at Illuman dot org slash mrop or</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Illuman dot org slash events.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>You can find more at Illuman dot org slash awaken.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>daily life.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence dot org slash app.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>today. Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Until next time, brothers, stay present.</v>